November 17, 2021 • 43 mins
On this episode of the Fitness Disrupted podcast, journalist Danielle Friedman joins Tom to talk about her new book, "Let's Get Physical: How Women Discovered Exercise and Reshaped the World". Listen as they discuss the evolution of women's fitness, and the struggle to defeat the myths and social structures that have prevented women from moving for decades.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Fitness Disrupted, a production of My Heart Radio.
I am Tom Holland, and this is Fitness Disrupted. Yes
you're gonna know what episodes I recorded while sick, But
(00:24):
the show goes on people and I am so rarely sick,
but too much to do, too many people to speak with,
including my next guest. And I say it often because
I believe it so deeply. I have the greatest job
in the world. I just do health and wellness, bringing
(00:47):
that to you. But then my homework is reading the studies,
stuff I love to do, but reading these books, reading
these incredible books like the one we're gonna talk about
today A And then I not only get to read
these incredible books, I get to interview the people that
write them, the best of the best. And then I
(01:10):
not only get to interview them, I get to bring
all that to you. And as I say, I'm only
going to bring you the best because I'm not gonna
waste your time. You have limited time, and I'm going
to bring you the information that will debunk all those myths,
(01:31):
that is based in science and that is really interesting,
as today's guest will show you the history of exercise
and women and all that's involved in that. I have
been in this business a really long time and I
learned so much from this book. And it's so entertaining.
(01:52):
That's what's so incredible. From guests like Michael Easter the
Comfort Crisis and Danielle Friedman, the author of Let's Get Physical,
that is what we're gonna talk about today, you're gonna
hear from her. They're incredible writers too, so not only entertaining,
but educational. And today's interview is a little different in
(02:17):
that it's the history of exercise as well as it
relates to women. It goes to running and home workout
videos and bar method group exercise, but it's also ath
leisure and the marketing and the advertising and all the
women's issues and how it influenced fitness for women. And
(02:44):
I would argue that's the difference within is disrupted too.
You don't focus on one thing. I don't focus on
one thing. You can't if you want to be successful.
It's not just nutrition, it's not just exercise, and it's
not even just motivation. Those three things. You gotta look
at the history. I don't know from where we came.
We gotta know where we're going what's incredible about this book?
(03:07):
Let's Get Physical. This is really interesting, so surprising, and
the connections are incredible as well. Could not have enjoyed
reading this book more. I mean, if you're into exercise,
if you're into fitness, either you know, professionally or someone
(03:27):
who just works out, don't love this book. Gonna love
this book. But as I said, it's not just entertaining,
it's educational on so many levels. It's incredible how much
work went into this book. And I'm gonna talk to
Daniel about that. Years of research, speaking with the people,
(03:50):
you know, going to the source or the daughter of
the source, you know. Incredible, so much fun to read.
So who am I bringing to you? And by the way,
such a great job. This book's not even out yet.
I heard about it and I said, I gotta find
(04:13):
out more about this book. And the more I found out,
I said, I gotta have her on and I got
an advanced copy. Kind of cool. And the cover it
says advanced uncorrected proof, not for sale, but you can
pre order it and you absolutely should. Absolutely so good.
Let's Get Physical written by Dan Yale Freedman. All right,
(04:37):
let me tell you a little bit about that Yale Freedman,
I'm laughing because my voice. I apologize, show goes on
as I say, uh. Danielle Freedman is an award winning
journalist whose feature writing has appeared in the New York Times,
The Cut, Vogue, Harper's Bizarre, Glamour, Health, and other publications.
She has worked as a senior editor at NBC News
(04:57):
Digital and The Daily Beast, and she began her career
here as a nonfiction book editor at The Penguin Imprince,
Hudson Street Press and Plume. Freedman lives in New York
City with her husband and son. Such a good read,
different people, different in such a great way. Knowledge the
(05:17):
books right, the best of the best. I'm not gonna
waste your time. I'm never gonna waste your time. And
this read, let's get physical, amazing, all right, Let's go
right to the source. When we come back, Danielle Freedman,
we'll be right back, and we are back again. I
(05:42):
apologize for the voice, but as I said, uh, you're
gonna know which interviews I did on what day based
on this voice, right, But I was not canceling the
interviews I had, and it includes the author of this
amazing new book that is not even out yet. I
feel so fortunate Danielle Freed, and thank you so much
for taking the time. Thank you for having me. It's
(06:02):
great to be here. I say it all the time.
I only have the best guests on and your your book,
like so for someone Danielle who has spent you know,
the better part of his life in this industry. Oh
my gosh, your book was so amazing and so heavily researched.
And how long did it must take new years, um
to do what you did and write this book? It did?
(06:24):
It did all toold. It took about four years from
sort of conception of the idea to um well to
where we are today. So yeah, it was a pretty
intensive research project. And what's incredible too, is you know
you went and interviewed all of these people, right, So
so often people you know will you know, do their
homework and and and research, but you literally spoke with
(06:46):
all these amazing people that will talk about right, that
must have been absolutely critical of traveling. How great right
to have that is part of your job, right, I
mean that must have been amazing. Absolutely. Um. I always
I always feel that as the journalist, you know, It's
such a privilege to have the opportunity to um connect
with with extraordinary people and this book was no different.
(07:08):
I you know, I've been a women's health and culture
journalist for almost two decades UM, and this book really
just felt like the epitome of the work that I've
done in this area and that I aspired to do. Yeah,
so let's go right from there, right, what what really
inspired you to to you know, get this off the
ground because it's it's a lot of work. You know,
(07:30):
this was a lot of work. It was a lot
of work, Yeah, but it was the most fun work
I've ever done. Um. So the book began, um about
four years ago. UM. It was this feels a little
bit cliche, but it was the lead up to my wedding.
And UM, I'm a lifelong runner and I've always been
very active, but I had never I actually hadn't really
(07:55):
um delved into boutique fitness yet at that point, and
so I just decided to take my first bar class
and that was really my first, um and you know,
very New York City es moutique fitness experience. I loved
the way the class has made me feel, which was
very strong and was surprisingly strong, But as a feminist
(08:16):
and as a women's health reporter, I was just I
just became intrigued by the subculture, and in particular um.
Many of the moves I noticed felt felt um kind
of surprisingly sexual, and so I decided to dig into
um are their sexual health benefits to the bar workout?
(08:38):
And what I discovered was way more interesting and rich
and complicated than I ever could have expected. I stumbled
on the story of Lottie Burke, the woman who invented
bar in the nineteen fifties the late nineteen fifties in London.
Lattie is an incredibly complicated but fascinating cinematic character. As
(09:00):
it turned out, she was very ahead of her time,
pretty sexual revolution, even in terms of encouraging women to
really connect with their bodies and focus on their their
sexual well being. I wrote about that story for New
York magazines The Cut, and I was thrilled when that
article went viral. I also discovered that many fitness professionals
(09:24):
and and bar professionals, studio owners instructors really had no
idea of what the workout's origins were. And I mean,
it's so ubiquitous today, such a phenomenon, but it felt
like it just kind of came from nowhere, and of course,
of course it didn't basically from there. While I was
working on that story, at one point, I thought, you know,
(09:46):
I'd love to talk to the author of the book
about the history of women's fitness. I like to do
my due diligence and contextualized. And I was truly amazed
to discover that that book did not exist. So the
wheels got turning. I started digging a little bit more,
and it turned out there were these Lottie Brook like
figures behind almost every movement of women's fitness starting from
(10:09):
the mid twentieth century. And that's what's so incredible for
someone like me, Danielle I. You know, I kept saying
to my wife, like, how excited I was for that
next chapter, and you're such a great writer, and and
then you and yeah, I'm gonna give you a horrible analogy,
but I have to. Um. I remember in college it
was the first of a WrestleMania, right, and sitting around,
(10:29):
you know, with a bunch of knucklehead roommates and there
was an event. WrestleMania started with one guy and then
every sixty seconds a new guy would come out and
you'd go you were all excited, like Who's next. And
I had that similar, horrible analogy feeling with your book.
Every chapter, I was like, who's next? Right, this incredible
history and I know many of the people, and I
(10:50):
myself interviewed some of them, and so it was. But
you have such an amazing, really deep dive into names
that I had never heard of. I mean, nobody Burke
and know all this stuff. But you know, you go
so deep and such a rich history of uh, just
women and fitness and where it all came from. And
the personalities as you're describing, right, because that's a huge
(11:12):
part of it, right, the cult of personality with I
would say, Danielle a squads of squad push ups, a
push up, it's the person who's teaching it that is
selling their thing. And that's kind of what you really
get to in this book, right, the amazing personalities. Yeah. Yeah,
and um, many of these women, I mean they really
were pioneers. And as I discussed, you know, in some
(11:33):
depth in the book, in the nineteen fifties, then the
contemporary fitness industry really began. It was really um transgressive
for a woman to to sweat, you know, to show
off muscles, to even to to exercise basically as a
grown woman in any regular, vigorous way. And so for
(11:54):
many decades, the women who invented and sold their workouts,
they were just entrepreneurs and creative thinkers. They really were
pioneers who in many cases, we're going against pretty ingrained
social norms to give women something that they previously didn't
have and that I believe has just improved, you know,
(12:15):
has changed so many women's lives for the better. Yeah,
so far ahead of their time, right, I had the
amazing good fortune many years ago to interview Jack Olaine
Um and you know, I thought of him obviously you're
going to the female counterpart and Bondie Prudent, like just
amazing stories. They were so far ahead of their time,
which made it kind of sad too, I said as
to you know, you know, because you're like, oh my gosh,
(12:38):
you know, we knew in the fifties what you know,
the mental aspects and all this kind of stuff, Like
how are we still here today? Right, especially with the
women's side, as you're saying, right, because we're still battling
that contradiction that you you know, so artfully discussed and
described with with you know, losing weight and the perfect
form and that just horrible kind of fight that women
(13:03):
have in this industry on both sides, right, Yeah, And
I mean something I was really interested in investigating where
that relationship between exercise and external appearances and the beauty
industry began. And I mean, it feels like such an
obvious connection now, but everything has a history, and so
you know, in the fifties and sixties, they weren't even
(13:25):
the medical community wasn't even convinced yet that exercise led
to weight loss. So what I really found was that
in those early days, because it was so transgressive and
radical for a woman to want to test her strength
and move, um, you know, it kind of had to
be sold as a way to become slim and trim
(13:49):
and to hold onto your honeymoon figure and frankly, you know,
make your husband happy, because it would never have flown,
it would never have caught on if it was just
silt a strange for strength sake. So you know that
that relationship, that that interplay between becoming strong and being
(14:10):
fit and doing so to look a certain way was
there pretty much from the very beginning and so it's, um,
you know, there's been each chapter has had its own
sort of flavor of that relationship. But the arc of
history has been toward progress here and even though we
still have so far to go, you know, I was
really it was very encouraging to see some of the
(14:34):
baby steps toward progress that have occurred over the last
few years. And what's so frightening, I would say, Danielle,
is you know when you get into running, I'm a
big runner. I know you ran New York City, by
the way, just happened the other day, right with your dad.
I've done the same thing, and I actually wanted you
to go into that more. And like, I love that
you talked about how you know, you told your time
(14:54):
to a cab driver and he's like, what did you
walk it? And like but but like that's what's so ridiculous,
is I know exactly because I've done the exact same
thing with my dad. Um, how amazing that experience is
to share that, and you know how I would argue,
and I'm sure you'd agree. Like social media has kind of,
I don't want to say ruined, but added an element
(15:15):
of those type of experiences where like people are going
to get it and who cares? And you did it
for the reasons, you did it right, And you know,
I'm just sad that social media has kind of added
an extra layer of like taking the fun and the
experience away from experiences like that. Um. But amazing, right
as you talk about you do an incredible history of running,
(15:36):
uh and Katherine, you know, the Boston Marathon and all
that kind of stuff. We're talking about women and how
they believed this is unbelievable that a woman's uterus would
fall out if you ran to I know, I know,
I mean, there's just so much fear around women's bodies
for so long, and there still is, you know, I
(15:58):
think there's been such a is so much more of
a candid conversation happening now, um, largely thanks to social media.
It's sort of the blessing and the furse. But but
but compared to what existed, you know, fifty sixty, seventy
years ago, it obviously has improved, you know. And it
took Katherine Switzer the first woman to run the Boston
(16:20):
Marathon with a number and and other women, so many
other women's running pioneers from the seventies, eighties and beyond
to two. It was sort of, um, you know, they
were proving these officials and the medical community wrong by
doing by showing. And I'm I'm still amazed that it.
You know, it took until women the Olympics. I mean,
(16:44):
that is just incredible. And so yeah, there's you know,
I mean, the idea that women are the weaker sets,
that women are limited. It's it was to to um
defy that was really threatening in in postwar America in
the mid twentieth century, you know, because masculinity met strength
(17:05):
and thereby femininity kind of meant weakness, you know, And
so debunking these myths was really debunking some very fundamental
beliefs about the way our society worked and was structured.
And that's I should say too, I mean, beyond just
the cinematic characters, the personalities in the book. I really
(17:26):
I saw early on too, that there was a much
bigger story here. And you know, so often the history
of women's fitness, I think especially is treated as kind
of like a series of disparate fads, from from leg
warmers to you know, bunds of you know, and the
shake weight and and it's so much more than that,
and Um, you know, so many of these pioneers have
(17:48):
been forgotten by history. Their work hasn't been really properly
acknowledged until now. But what I wanted to show was,
first of all, how it's all everyone's connected, and you
know Bonnie Prude and went on to influence some of
the creators, some of the founders of aerobics who went
on too. You know, every everything is every everything is connected.
And also, um, the rise of the women's fitness movement
(18:13):
was really a reflection. It both reflected and fueled the
changing times and cultural and social beliefs about women's bodies
and capability and power. And that just felt like a
story that that was really important and hadn't been told
and sort of one you know, cohesive narrative form. So
(18:34):
it was really exciting for me to get to tell
that story. And it's a story that I have not
read in this way, as you said, you know when
I'm sure you were doing your research. Um, and it's incredible,
you know, because you do go through the war and advertising. Um.
I was, you know, yelling to my wife, did you
know where the sports brod came from? Right? And one
(18:54):
of my favorites. Yeah, I love the line you have
one of the sports brob Ben and Jerry's and the
muppets have in common, one readers, what do they have
in common? Is kind of cool and it leads to
where it came from, right yeah, yeah, they'll have to
read and see. Yeah. Uh, but just amazing. And the
way you so expertly tie in the times and the
(19:16):
women's issues and how you know it affected um. As
you said, you know this community and the connections that
they had to one another, which blew me away to Danielle,
like you know, someone taught someone else. I mean, it
makes complete sense. But it's so cool to read. Um,
what surprised you? Like? What jumped out? I mean, I'm
sure there was a lot, um, but what like really
(19:37):
resonated with you after after reading this book? Yeah, there
really was a lot, I mean, and that's what made
it so fun. I felt like I was. It was
just such a process of discovery from the very beginning.
I love discovering those unexpected connections. Um. I have to
say that the stories of the gear, the sports bra,
(19:59):
the creation and rise of Micra as as like the
fitness fabric and really it's a fiber which you know
becomes the fabric fabri Exuse me, Um, those stories were
just so fascinating to me. So the sports brought to
to elaborate on what you were alluding to wasn't invented
until nineteen seventy seven in Vermont, and the fact that
(20:23):
it wasn't invented until that long really to me just
you know, it speaks to how little women moved for
so long. Um, with so many of these inventions, necessity
was the mother of invention, and so it took it
kind of took a critical mass of women moving for
for women to get the the gear that would enable
(20:45):
them to move more comfortably. And the story of Licra
too is so fascinating. It was the fiber was initially
invented by DuPont to create a more comfortable girdle. But
not long after day, after decades they debuted it, women
started ditching their girdles and so suddenly they had there
(21:05):
were rules and roles of you know, shiny likero fabric
that wasn't being turned into girdles, and then that fabric
basically became the fabric of Leotard's and of liberation for
so many women. So those kind of unexpected stories of
just how the contemporary industry and the gear of the
industry came to be. We're really delightful to me. I mean,
(21:32):
like I said, just the some of the myths that
persisted not that long ago. Um, the myth about women's
about vigorous exercise causing a woman's eaters clouts, heymeb again
and again and it you know, I I questioned, I
was like, do people really believe that? And sure enough?
I mean, so many women I interviewed and I, as
(21:53):
you said, I interviewed you know many um, true fitness legends,
but also just women who have been active, who lived
the history in these pages as devotees, and so many
of them described a version of that story to me.
Of of that belief you know, your uterus will drop
your univerus, well, it was just um, and I mean,
(22:15):
what a sort of what an ironclad way to prevent
women from pushing, from from testing their strength, especially in
the six you know, fifties and sixties, women were so
conditioned to want to have children. What could be scarier
or sound more horrifying than your uterus literally falling out?
(22:35):
So yeah, and it's so frightening because it's like, when
did that ever happen. I mean it makes me really
sad with you know, because doctors were pushing this, as
you said, and you know, and not that long ago.
So it's just it's sad and frightening and and you know,
makes you rethink, you know, constantly, other things that are
out there when it comes to you know, exercise and
(22:57):
what's being put forth. I mean, I even love what's
backtrack a little bit when you talk about mini skirts,
and you had great line basically saying, right, how clothing
up until then was was hiding imperfections and now with
the advent of mini skirts, well now we have we're
showing more skin and that led to obviously different types
of exercise and caring more about appearance, and just the
(23:18):
way you tie that in and it's obviously inherently tied
into the movement. It's incredible. Yeah, yeah, um, I found
that so fascinating. How until really the sixties, you know,
um yeah, women's fashions were meant to flatter and camouflage
what women called figure faults, and with the you know,
(23:42):
with the girdle being ditched, which happened to team a
bit later, but with with the rise of the mini
skirt and and and just the mini everything right. Suddenly
women were really exposed and so and so it was
like a paradigm shift. Instead of altering your clothes to
flatter your body, it was all during your body to
flatter your clothes and to flatter fashion. Um and as
(24:06):
with so many UH sort of developments in women's fashion
and beauty over the years. On the one hand, not
having to wear layers and layers of petticoats and and
be you know, dressed so modestly set women free. It
was easier to move, it was more youthful, and you
(24:26):
could be more expressive with your fashion. But on the
other hand, it created you know, the the beauty and
body standards were just continually ratcheted up, and and that
really did help to fuel first Slottie Burke and then
and then the rise of UH women's fitness in general.
(24:46):
And by the way back to to Lottie Burke years ago,
I was waiting for you to did you come across
go figure as one of the So that was like
another version of Flatty Burke, So Greenwich, Connecticut. I'm in
dairy and so you know, it was a bar method
type thing started by you know, another woman, but long
story short, I I, you know, try everything, and I
remember being so humbled, uh in this room with these
(25:09):
women as you describe, you know, the typical bar class
and here I was this iron man, ultra marathon guy
and I was dying. I mean, just so humbled and
it's incredible and it's just amazing. Um. And what what
I love the kind of so much great stuff in
(25:30):
the book, but the the overall arching theme of how
exercise made women feel right, Because I'm a big one, Danielle.
You know, I work with a bunch of different fitness
companies and pushing for let's stop having you know, the
perfect bodies in the ads. Let's have that real person
and let's open this up to everyone. Because you talk
(25:50):
about and I saw two back when I used to
write for the magazines and things like that, and you
speak about this in the book. You'd have an article
on you know, fitness and loving your body, and the
next page would be an ad for something totally contradictory
to what that article and what the magazine is all about,
which is so problematic. So just talk about that a
little bit. Yeah, yeah, I mean, you know, and that's
(26:13):
still um we still see that to an extent today.
But I really think, as as one historian told me,
you know, there has there has been a kind of
buy in from capitalism, um, to the to the body positivity,
body neutrality, body acceptance movement. Um. When you look through magazines,
(26:37):
uh in in certainly in the fifties and sixties, but
but even in the seventies. Um that it's really it really,
I mean, it's endlessly entertaining, but it makes your head explode. Um.
There was one example in an issue of Cosmopolitan that
was edited by the legendary Helen Burly Brown at the time,
where um, there was an article that was literally titled
(27:02):
why I Hate Me, and it was meant to be
a kind of you know um uh, it was meant
to encourage women to cultivate self esteem. And then on
the next page was a full body what they called
a slenderizing wrath. It was mommifying yourself, and it was
just every page it was you know. There there were
those contradictions, of course, fueled by the advertising industry, among
(27:27):
among other things, but um, the advertising industry has never
unfortunately you know, gone wrong by um by highlighting aspects
of women's bodies that they should feel self conscious about
and that we should feel shame about and fear. And
so it's been it has been, and again I don't
want to oversell it, but over the past five ten years,
(27:51):
you know, it has been really encouraging to see the
ways in which that is changing and the tolerance for
that is just it has just gone way down. There's now,
as as one body activists told me, you know, or
really just explained in a really clarifying way. For so long,
(28:11):
the conversation around these topics, it was one way. It
was it was pop culture, arbiters, women's magazines, media telling women,
you know, this is how you should look, this is
what you should strive for, and women attempted to to follow.
And now because of social media, which again it's you know,
(28:32):
it's a double edged sword. However it has given as
this one activist, Avergie Tobar put it, a voice to
those who have always been the majority in numbers, you know,
but not in power really. And so now that there's
a two way conversation anytime, there is kind of I mean,
(28:52):
this is there's there's a lot to deconstructor with the
way that social media U dialogs happened, but for for
better or worth. When a major fitness company or beauty
you know uh company uh starts to be your bath
into that body shaming territory, there's just there there will
(29:17):
be a backlash and that, um, that is progress. And
we're seeing you know, so many more uh so much
more diversity of body size and shape on magazine covers,
in advertisements, in particularly um, among women's uh you know, athletes,
your brands. Again, it's not this is not to say
(29:38):
that the people uh making these decisions haven't necessarily had
and some kind of you know epanophany. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
but progress has to start somewhere. So you know, you
talk about and you know it's someone who was a
trainer for many years and trained you know, so many
(29:58):
people of all ages and and just you know, sizes
and everything. You just wanted to get across that. Of course,
you know people and you talk about in the book
to everyone wants to be a certain way, look a
certain way. You know, we are visual people. But you know,
a huge part of my philosophy and life's work, Danielle
is saying, yeah, but there's so many benefits to exercise
(30:21):
that you're missing out on when that's your focus and
you know, we don't want to focus on the scale.
And you know, the benefits of exercise psychologically that you
talk about are so huge, and you talk about how
empowering it is and it's it's cliche to talk about
but it but it's so true. You know it. I
know it, Uh, And many people are learning it now,
as you're saying, because we're getting away from that perfect
(30:43):
ideal and do it because it feels good first, Right,
you're gonna get the other two. I always say, Danielle, Right,
what good field going to live longer? Uh? You know,
I exercise for my sanity now used to be more humanity.
But you've gotta look better, um, and you're gonna feel
better and and that's exciting and that's a huge kind
of undercurrent of your book as well. Yes. Yes, And
(31:04):
so many women I interviewed, particularly women who discovered exercise
in the seventies and eighties, talked about how, you know,
the thing that originally got them in the door was
changing the way they looked fitting into a smaller sized
pair of jeans. But you know, they very quickly discovered
these more profound benefits, um for their mental health, for
(31:25):
their energy, for their you know, even their sense of
community and social belonging. Um. I was really influenced in
my research by uh Kelly mcgonical, the psychologist at Stanford
who most recently wrote The Joy of Movement, which is
just I don't know if you've you know, I just
(31:46):
for me her work and which basically, you know, she
she pulls together all of the latest research into the
psychological benefits of of movement. And that's just I kept
coming back to that throughout the whole process of why
you know, um, it's I know it's obvious on many levels,
(32:08):
but like why this really matters for our overall well being? Um?
And for reasons that go far beyond vanity or or
even you know, kind of clinical medical health. Um. Just overall,
what what's what's more important, you know than the pursuit
of of health and happiness and so um. Yeah, it
(32:31):
was very It was very encouraging to hear about women
who discovered that for themselves and who are now in
there some some of them, and they're you know, eighties
and nineties and are still reaping those rewards and still teaching.
I love like you know that the daughter you know,
I just incredible, but I love and kind of end
the book there, Um, you're talking about the psychology and
(32:52):
that's everything I'm about. You know, I always say that,
you know, we know we need to move more and
eat better, but how do we do that? And what's
the what's the special sauce? And what you're saying and
alluding to is you know, that magic of being in
a class, of being in a group, of moving together,
of that you know, synchronicity and just like incredible, um
(33:14):
feeling in a group setting. And you know what, Daniel,
that kind of makes me think. You know, with the
Pelotons of the world, it's great, we brought you know,
access into the home and you can do your workouts,
but there's nothing like being in that group setting. Uh
right now, as you talk about in the book with
the bar and all those different methodologies you tried out. Yeah,
(33:34):
and it just you know, it actually brings it back
to the marathon for me, um, which is fresh on
my mind after the race on Sunday. But but it
I every single time, I well, every time I watched
the New York City Marathon, which I'm fortunate that it
literally runs right by my apartment. Um, But even for me,
(33:55):
every time I'm waiting to start running a road race,
I cry, you know, I not no, I'm not weeping,
but I but I just feel that such it's such
a pure swell of emotion and and and I that
to me is precious. I mean, there's there are a
few things, I think for me that have the ability
(34:16):
to move me in such a reliable and visceral way.
And it's just that experience of of moving together in
a crowd, knowing that everyone everyone is trying, you know,
and and you know, I was thinking about what you
were the you highlighted the anecdote I talked about in
(34:36):
the book where the cab driver asked me if I
walked when I told him time, and and I should
I should mention too. I did run it with my dad,
who is the most passionate runner and is responsible for
for my interest in this sport. But he um, my
dad was slowing down for me. He was sixty eight.
But I mean, but I mentioned that because you know,
(35:02):
I'm I'm not an elite athlete. I'm a very I
think one of the reasons why I was really interested
in telling this story also is because I'm not I'm
not an instructor, I'm not an industry professional, and yet um,
exercise and movement have have had such a profound impact
on me, and I wanted to know how, you know
(35:23):
how and why just regular uh appreciators of movement and
fitness came to have access to the opportunities that we
now have today. How I could run a marathon when
just you know, fifty years ago, even the most elite
Olympic athletes, female athletes didn't have that opportunity. So, um,
(35:48):
you know it, fitness looks different for everyone. But I
think what we have in common is that it comes
down to you know, you don't have to look a
certain way or have a certain ability to benefit from
it in a very deep way. And I would argue
your passion and kind of connection, and I'm like you listen,
every finish line I cross, I cry, you know, it's
(36:09):
all it changes you and and I love and but
and I love that you're not that person, right, You're
not the fitness instructor, because I think that is one
of the reasons the book is so good. Not that
a fitness instructor could write a good book, but you
come at it in a different way that is so
unique and so just passionate and I love the chapter.
I tweeted it out. I was literally reading the chapter
(36:31):
on running, and you said you started with Katherine Switzer's quote,
if you're losing faith in human nature, go out and
watch a marathon. There's something so powerful about that. And everyone,
I would say, everyone has a story, and everyone's suffering together,
and at the end, everyone will you know, they're suffering
on the same course, in the same conditions, and everyone
will have a story and everyone will suffer. And all
(36:53):
those analogies again are so cliche, but they're so powerful,
And yeah, you really kind of get that across. I'll
give you a quick story. I a client many years ago.
Your book made me think of this, and we started
working together. She wanted to lose weight, and she was
a high executive and not in a great marriage. And
we started running, and I realized, to your point, um, Danielle,
so many of the women I worked with in their
(37:13):
forties and fifties weren't allowed to do exercise right, weren't
allowed to play sports for whatever reason. It wasn't the
fathers wouldn't let them. And there were amazing athletes that
we figured you're right, which was sad and amazing. So
long story short, we started doing five ks and then
ten ks and her husband wasn't supportive, and we finished
our first half marathon together. I paced her and I said,
(37:33):
you know what, you could run a marathon. And her
husband was at the finish line and he said, Childford
do it. We ran six around the world. She divorced
him at you know, ran on to such great things.
And and I think that's one of the kind of
themes of this book as well, is you know, so
many of the limitations that were put on women for
these reasons and others are changing. And and it's the
(37:55):
mental side, and it's the self confidence and the self
efficacy that comes from this with that great storyline of
the job Bras and Jock Bras and all the great
other things that you weave into it, what do you
want people to kind of get from this? The more
I understand kind of I mean, this is why I
wrote a book of history, but where you know, our
present opportunities came from, the more I appreciate what we
(38:19):
have and the more meaning, you know, those opportunities have
for me. So on one level, yes, I hope that
readers take away that that the opportunity to move um,
as well as as the access to move is still
a relatively recent privilege. And also that it's one that
you know can be harnessed for just for so much
(38:43):
good and so much beyond um the cosmetic um. And
and and finally you know that that the most important thing,
just based on my research, is moving in ways that
make us feel good. And that doesn't mean easy, it can,
you know, but um, running a marathon makes me feel
(39:05):
really good, you know, and so but it just it's
finding exercise should not be punitive, you know. And so
finding um, those the forms of fitness that that boost
us and make us feel good and um just help
to help to bolster our our mental health puts it
(39:28):
perfectly like a you know, period exclamation point on it.
It's that, as you said, and I was gonna give
you give them your line that it shouldn't be punitive.
And you know, when people say they don't like exercise, Danielletts,
I always say, you haven't found what you like. You
haven't found and there is no failure. You know, you
may try bar you may hate running. You know, I say,
swimming is not a sport, it's a means to keep
(39:49):
from drowning. I do try athalons, but you know, um,
there there's such power when you find that thing, and
you you will find it if you keep trying, you know,
But don't beat your self up. I love too, which
just real quickly, Uh when you talk about how perfect
you know, I used to teach a crunch many years
ago and I remember walking by a jump rope class
and I was like, oh my gosh, these people are amazing,
(40:10):
Like no how you would ever walk into that class
because they were so perfect. But don't be afraid of
finding that thing that you like. And and maybe you
do start at home as you talk about, um, you know,
with certain people and instructors. Um, but find that thing
and and it will be fun, it will feel good
and it may change over time to right you know exactly,
(40:31):
it probably will. Can you change? And don't beat yourself
up and go, oh, you know I used to spend
three times a week and now I don't feel like it.
You go, Okay, find that next thing, the zimba or
whatever it might be. Danielle, thank you so much for
taking the time. Thank you so much for writing this book.
You know, was just torturing. My wife kept you know,
reading parts to her and saying like how great and
the just all the things that I didn't know and
(40:52):
the people. Um, so it's called Let's Get Physical. They
can pre order now, right, Yeah, it's available wherever books
are sold. If you're into fitness, if you're into just
history of women and exercise, you will be blown away
the characters and again Danielle goes so deep and uh,
it's just it's an amazing book. So I cannot recommend
(41:13):
it more highly. Let's Get Physical How Women Discovered Exercise
and Reshape the World. Danielle, thank you so much for
taking the time and much success with this book. Thank
you so much for having me. This has been such
a pleasure. All right, thank you Danielle, And we will
be right back after this short break and we are back.
(41:35):
Thank you to Dan Yelle Freedman. Go out and get
this book. Order it, pre order it. Let's Get Physical,
How Women Discovered Exercise and Reshape the World. Awesome, awesome.
If you want to reach out to me questions comments, uh,
Tom Instagram, Tom h fit is Twitter, you can go
(41:59):
to iss Disrupted dot com email me through the site
as well. Uh. And my most recent book is The
Micro Workout Plan. You can order that a bunch of
great workouts in their home workouts just body weight and dumbbells.
So if you're in the market for something like that,
the Micro Workout Plan, and yes, if you have purchased
it and enjoyed it and Amazon review is greatly appreciated.
(42:24):
As Danielle will attest again, I just love, love, love
the fact that I get to speak with people like Danielle,
and I can't recommend this book more highly educational, entertaining
and unique and just awesome. Again. Let's get physical, all right,
Thank you so much for listening. Remember the three things
we all control, how much we move, what we put
(42:46):
into our mouths, and our attitudes. That, my friends, is awesome.
I am Tom Holland. This is Fitness Disrupted, Believing yourself.
Fitness Disrupted is a production of I Heart Radio. For
more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the i heart
Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your
(43:10):
favorite shows.
Welcome to Fitness Disrupted, a production of My Heart Radio.
I am Tom Holland, and this is Fitness Disrupted. Yes
you're gonna know what episodes I recorded while sick, But
(00:24):
the show goes on people and I am so rarely sick,
but too much to do, too many people to speak with,
including my next guest. And I say it often because
I believe it so deeply. I have the greatest job
in the world. I just do health and wellness, bringing
(00:47):
that to you. But then my homework is reading the studies,
stuff I love to do, but reading these books, reading
these incredible books like the one we're gonna talk about
today A And then I not only get to read
these incredible books, I get to interview the people that
write them, the best of the best. And then I
(01:10):
not only get to interview them, I get to bring
all that to you. And as I say, I'm only
going to bring you the best because I'm not gonna
waste your time. You have limited time, and I'm going
to bring you the information that will debunk all those myths,
(01:31):
that is based in science and that is really interesting,
as today's guest will show you the history of exercise
and women and all that's involved in that. I have
been in this business a really long time and I
learned so much from this book. And it's so entertaining.
(01:52):
That's what's so incredible. From guests like Michael Easter the
Comfort Crisis and Danielle Friedman, the author of Let's Get Physical,
that is what we're gonna talk about today, you're gonna
hear from her. They're incredible writers too, so not only entertaining,
but educational. And today's interview is a little different in
(02:17):
that it's the history of exercise as well as it
relates to women. It goes to running and home workout
videos and bar method group exercise, but it's also ath
leisure and the marketing and the advertising and all the
women's issues and how it influenced fitness for women. And
(02:44):
I would argue that's the difference within is disrupted too.
You don't focus on one thing. I don't focus on
one thing. You can't if you want to be successful.
It's not just nutrition, it's not just exercise, and it's
not even just motivation. Those three things. You gotta look
at the history. I don't know from where we came.
We gotta know where we're going what's incredible about this book?
(03:07):
Let's Get Physical. This is really interesting, so surprising, and
the connections are incredible as well. Could not have enjoyed
reading this book more. I mean, if you're into exercise,
if you're into fitness, either you know, professionally or someone
(03:27):
who just works out, don't love this book. Gonna love
this book. But as I said, it's not just entertaining,
it's educational on so many levels. It's incredible how much
work went into this book. And I'm gonna talk to
Daniel about that. Years of research, speaking with the people,
(03:50):
you know, going to the source or the daughter of
the source, you know. Incredible, so much fun to read.
So who am I bringing to you? And by the way,
such a great job. This book's not even out yet.
I heard about it and I said, I gotta find
(04:13):
out more about this book. And the more I found out,
I said, I gotta have her on and I got
an advanced copy. Kind of cool. And the cover it
says advanced uncorrected proof, not for sale, but you can
pre order it and you absolutely should. Absolutely so good.
Let's Get Physical written by Dan Yale Freedman. All right,
(04:37):
let me tell you a little bit about that Yale Freedman,
I'm laughing because my voice. I apologize, show goes on
as I say, uh. Danielle Freedman is an award winning
journalist whose feature writing has appeared in the New York Times,
The Cut, Vogue, Harper's Bizarre, Glamour, Health, and other publications.
She has worked as a senior editor at NBC News
(04:57):
Digital and The Daily Beast, and she began her career
here as a nonfiction book editor at The Penguin Imprince,
Hudson Street Press and Plume. Freedman lives in New York
City with her husband and son. Such a good read,
different people, different in such a great way. Knowledge the
(05:17):
books right, the best of the best. I'm not gonna
waste your time. I'm never gonna waste your time. And
this read, let's get physical, amazing, all right, Let's go
right to the source. When we come back, Danielle Freedman,
we'll be right back, and we are back again. I
(05:42):
apologize for the voice, but as I said, uh, you're
gonna know which interviews I did on what day based
on this voice, right, But I was not canceling the
interviews I had, and it includes the author of this
amazing new book that is not even out yet. I
feel so fortunate Danielle Freed, and thank you so much
for taking the time. Thank you for having me. It's
(06:02):
great to be here. I say it all the time.
I only have the best guests on and your your book,
like so for someone Danielle who has spent you know,
the better part of his life in this industry. Oh
my gosh, your book was so amazing and so heavily researched.
And how long did it must take new years, um
to do what you did and write this book? It did?
(06:24):
It did all toold. It took about four years from
sort of conception of the idea to um well to
where we are today. So yeah, it was a pretty
intensive research project. And what's incredible too, is you know
you went and interviewed all of these people, right, So
so often people you know will you know, do their
homework and and and research, but you literally spoke with
(06:46):
all these amazing people that will talk about right, that
must have been absolutely critical of traveling. How great right
to have that is part of your job, right, I
mean that must have been amazing. Absolutely. Um. I always
I always feel that as the journalist, you know, It's
such a privilege to have the opportunity to um connect
with with extraordinary people and this book was no different.
(07:08):
I you know, I've been a women's health and culture
journalist for almost two decades UM, and this book really
just felt like the epitome of the work that I've
done in this area and that I aspired to do. Yeah,
so let's go right from there, right, what what really
inspired you to to you know, get this off the
ground because it's it's a lot of work. You know,
(07:30):
this was a lot of work. It was a lot
of work, Yeah, but it was the most fun work
I've ever done. Um. So the book began, um about
four years ago. UM. It was this feels a little
bit cliche, but it was the lead up to my wedding.
And UM, I'm a lifelong runner and I've always been
very active, but I had never I actually hadn't really
(07:55):
um delved into boutique fitness yet at that point, and
so I just decided to take my first bar class
and that was really my first, um and you know,
very New York City es moutique fitness experience. I loved
the way the class has made me feel, which was
very strong and was surprisingly strong, But as a feminist
(08:16):
and as a women's health reporter, I was just I
just became intrigued by the subculture, and in particular um.
Many of the moves I noticed felt felt um kind
of surprisingly sexual, and so I decided to dig into
um are their sexual health benefits to the bar workout?
(08:38):
And what I discovered was way more interesting and rich
and complicated than I ever could have expected. I stumbled
on the story of Lottie Burke, the woman who invented
bar in the nineteen fifties the late nineteen fifties in London.
Lattie is an incredibly complicated but fascinating cinematic character. As
(09:00):
it turned out, she was very ahead of her time,
pretty sexual revolution, even in terms of encouraging women to
really connect with their bodies and focus on their their
sexual well being. I wrote about that story for New
York magazines The Cut, and I was thrilled when that
article went viral. I also discovered that many fitness professionals
(09:24):
and and bar professionals, studio owners instructors really had no
idea of what the workout's origins were. And I mean,
it's so ubiquitous today, such a phenomenon, but it felt
like it just kind of came from nowhere, and of course,
of course it didn't basically from there. While I was
working on that story, at one point, I thought, you know,
(09:46):
I'd love to talk to the author of the book
about the history of women's fitness. I like to do
my due diligence and contextualized. And I was truly amazed
to discover that that book did not exist. So the
wheels got turning. I started digging a little bit more,
and it turned out there were these Lottie Brook like
figures behind almost every movement of women's fitness starting from
(10:09):
the mid twentieth century. And that's what's so incredible for
someone like me, Danielle I. You know, I kept saying
to my wife, like, how excited I was for that
next chapter, and you're such a great writer, and and
then you and yeah, I'm gonna give you a horrible analogy,
but I have to. Um. I remember in college it
was the first of a WrestleMania, right, and sitting around,
(10:29):
you know, with a bunch of knucklehead roommates and there
was an event. WrestleMania started with one guy and then
every sixty seconds a new guy would come out and
you'd go you were all excited, like Who's next. And
I had that similar, horrible analogy feeling with your book.
Every chapter, I was like, who's next? Right, this incredible
history and I know many of the people, and I
(10:50):
myself interviewed some of them, and so it was. But
you have such an amazing, really deep dive into names
that I had never heard of. I mean, nobody Burke
and know all this stuff. But you know, you go
so deep and such a rich history of uh, just
women and fitness and where it all came from. And
the personalities as you're describing, right, because that's a huge
(11:12):
part of it, right, the cult of personality with I
would say, Danielle a squads of squad push ups, a
push up, it's the person who's teaching it that is
selling their thing. And that's kind of what you really
get to in this book, right, the amazing personalities. Yeah. Yeah,
and um, many of these women, I mean they really
were pioneers. And as I discussed, you know, in some
(11:33):
depth in the book, in the nineteen fifties, then the
contemporary fitness industry really began. It was really um transgressive
for a woman to to sweat, you know, to show
off muscles, to even to to exercise basically as a
grown woman in any regular, vigorous way. And so for
(11:54):
many decades, the women who invented and sold their workouts,
they were just entrepreneurs and creative thinkers. They really were
pioneers who in many cases, we're going against pretty ingrained
social norms to give women something that they previously didn't
have and that I believe has just improved, you know,
(12:15):
has changed so many women's lives for the better. Yeah,
so far ahead of their time, right, I had the
amazing good fortune many years ago to interview Jack Olaine
Um and you know, I thought of him obviously you're
going to the female counterpart and Bondie Prudent, like just
amazing stories. They were so far ahead of their time,
which made it kind of sad too, I said as
to you know, you know, because you're like, oh my gosh,
(12:38):
you know, we knew in the fifties what you know,
the mental aspects and all this kind of stuff, Like
how are we still here today? Right, especially with the
women's side, as you're saying, right, because we're still battling
that contradiction that you you know, so artfully discussed and
described with with you know, losing weight and the perfect
form and that just horrible kind of fight that women
(13:03):
have in this industry on both sides, right, Yeah, And
I mean something I was really interested in investigating where
that relationship between exercise and external appearances and the beauty
industry began. And I mean, it feels like such an
obvious connection now, but everything has a history, and so
you know, in the fifties and sixties, they weren't even
(13:25):
the medical community wasn't even convinced yet that exercise led
to weight loss. So what I really found was that
in those early days, because it was so transgressive and
radical for a woman to want to test her strength
and move, um, you know, it kind of had to
be sold as a way to become slim and trim
(13:49):
and to hold onto your honeymoon figure and frankly, you know,
make your husband happy, because it would never have flown,
it would never have caught on if it was just
silt a strange for strength sake. So you know that
that relationship, that that interplay between becoming strong and being
(14:10):
fit and doing so to look a certain way was
there pretty much from the very beginning and so it's, um,
you know, there's been each chapter has had its own
sort of flavor of that relationship. But the arc of
history has been toward progress here and even though we
still have so far to go, you know, I was
really it was very encouraging to see some of the
(14:34):
baby steps toward progress that have occurred over the last
few years. And what's so frightening, I would say, Danielle,
is you know when you get into running, I'm a
big runner. I know you ran New York City, by
the way, just happened the other day, right with your dad.
I've done the same thing, and I actually wanted you
to go into that more. And like, I love that
you talked about how you know, you told your time
(14:54):
to a cab driver and he's like, what did you
walk it? And like but but like that's what's so ridiculous,
is I know exactly because I've done the exact same
thing with my dad. Um, how amazing that experience is
to share that, and you know how I would argue,
and I'm sure you'd agree. Like social media has kind of,
I don't want to say ruined, but added an element
(15:15):
of those type of experiences where like people are going
to get it and who cares? And you did it
for the reasons, you did it right, And you know,
I'm just sad that social media has kind of added
an extra layer of like taking the fun and the
experience away from experiences like that. Um. But amazing, right
as you talk about you do an incredible history of running,
(15:36):
uh and Katherine, you know, the Boston Marathon and all
that kind of stuff. We're talking about women and how
they believed this is unbelievable that a woman's uterus would
fall out if you ran to I know, I know,
I mean, there's just so much fear around women's bodies
for so long, and there still is, you know, I
(15:58):
think there's been such a is so much more of
a candid conversation happening now, um, largely thanks to social media.
It's sort of the blessing and the furse. But but
but compared to what existed, you know, fifty sixty, seventy
years ago, it obviously has improved, you know. And it
took Katherine Switzer the first woman to run the Boston
(16:20):
Marathon with a number and and other women, so many
other women's running pioneers from the seventies, eighties and beyond
to two. It was sort of, um, you know, they
were proving these officials and the medical community wrong by
doing by showing. And I'm I'm still amazed that it.
You know, it took until women the Olympics. I mean,
(16:44):
that is just incredible. And so yeah, there's you know,
I mean, the idea that women are the weaker sets,
that women are limited. It's it was to to um
defy that was really threatening in in postwar America in
the mid twentieth century, you know, because masculinity met strength
(17:05):
and thereby femininity kind of meant weakness, you know, And
so debunking these myths was really debunking some very fundamental
beliefs about the way our society worked and was structured.
And that's I should say too, I mean, beyond just
the cinematic characters, the personalities in the book. I really
(17:26):
I saw early on too, that there was a much
bigger story here. And you know, so often the history
of women's fitness, I think especially is treated as kind
of like a series of disparate fads, from from leg
warmers to you know, bunds of you know, and the
shake weight and and it's so much more than that,
and Um, you know, so many of these pioneers have
(17:48):
been forgotten by history. Their work hasn't been really properly
acknowledged until now. But what I wanted to show was,
first of all, how it's all everyone's connected, and you
know Bonnie Prude and went on to influence some of
the creators, some of the founders of aerobics who went
on too. You know, every everything is every everything is connected.
And also, um, the rise of the women's fitness movement
(18:13):
was really a reflection. It both reflected and fueled the
changing times and cultural and social beliefs about women's bodies
and capability and power. And that just felt like a
story that that was really important and hadn't been told
and sort of one you know, cohesive narrative form. So
(18:34):
it was really exciting for me to get to tell
that story. And it's a story that I have not
read in this way, as you said, you know when
I'm sure you were doing your research. Um, and it's incredible,
you know, because you do go through the war and advertising. Um.
I was, you know, yelling to my wife, did you
know where the sports brod came from? Right? And one
(18:54):
of my favorites. Yeah, I love the line you have
one of the sports brob Ben and Jerry's and the
muppets have in common, one readers, what do they have
in common? Is kind of cool and it leads to
where it came from, right yeah, yeah, they'll have to
read and see. Yeah. Uh, but just amazing. And the
way you so expertly tie in the times and the
(19:16):
women's issues and how you know it affected um. As
you said, you know this community and the connections that
they had to one another, which blew me away to Danielle,
like you know, someone taught someone else. I mean, it
makes complete sense. But it's so cool to read. Um,
what surprised you? Like? What jumped out? I mean, I'm
sure there was a lot, um, but what like really
(19:37):
resonated with you after after reading this book? Yeah, there
really was a lot, I mean, and that's what made
it so fun. I felt like I was. It was
just such a process of discovery from the very beginning.
I love discovering those unexpected connections. Um. I have to
say that the stories of the gear, the sports bra,
(19:59):
the creation and rise of Micra as as like the
fitness fabric and really it's a fiber which you know
becomes the fabric fabri Exuse me, Um, those stories were
just so fascinating to me. So the sports brought to
to elaborate on what you were alluding to wasn't invented
until nineteen seventy seven in Vermont, and the fact that
(20:23):
it wasn't invented until that long really to me just
you know, it speaks to how little women moved for
so long. Um, with so many of these inventions, necessity
was the mother of invention, and so it took it
kind of took a critical mass of women moving for
for women to get the the gear that would enable
(20:45):
them to move more comfortably. And the story of Licra
too is so fascinating. It was the fiber was initially
invented by DuPont to create a more comfortable girdle. But
not long after day, after decades they debuted it, women
started ditching their girdles and so suddenly they had there
(21:05):
were rules and roles of you know, shiny likero fabric
that wasn't being turned into girdles, and then that fabric
basically became the fabric of Leotard's and of liberation for
so many women. So those kind of unexpected stories of
just how the contemporary industry and the gear of the
industry came to be. We're really delightful to me. I mean,
(21:32):
like I said, just the some of the myths that
persisted not that long ago. Um, the myth about women's
about vigorous exercise causing a woman's eaters clouts, heymeb again
and again and it you know, I I questioned, I
was like, do people really believe that? And sure enough?
I mean, so many women I interviewed and I, as
(21:53):
you said, I interviewed you know many um, true fitness legends,
but also just women who have been active, who lived
the history in these pages as devotees, and so many
of them described a version of that story to me.
Of of that belief you know, your uterus will drop
your univerus, well, it was just um, and I mean,
(22:15):
what a sort of what an ironclad way to prevent
women from pushing, from from testing their strength, especially in
the six you know, fifties and sixties, women were so
conditioned to want to have children. What could be scarier
or sound more horrifying than your uterus literally falling out?
(22:35):
So yeah, and it's so frightening because it's like, when
did that ever happen. I mean it makes me really
sad with you know, because doctors were pushing this, as
you said, and you know, and not that long ago.
So it's just it's sad and frightening and and you know,
makes you rethink, you know, constantly, other things that are
out there when it comes to you know, exercise and
(22:57):
what's being put forth. I mean, I even love what's
backtrack a little bit when you talk about mini skirts,
and you had great line basically saying, right, how clothing
up until then was was hiding imperfections and now with
the advent of mini skirts, well now we have we're
showing more skin and that led to obviously different types
of exercise and caring more about appearance, and just the
(23:18):
way you tie that in and it's obviously inherently tied
into the movement. It's incredible. Yeah, yeah, um, I found
that so fascinating. How until really the sixties, you know,
um yeah, women's fashions were meant to flatter and camouflage
what women called figure faults, and with the you know,
(23:42):
with the girdle being ditched, which happened to team a
bit later, but with with the rise of the mini
skirt and and and just the mini everything right. Suddenly
women were really exposed and so and so it was
like a paradigm shift. Instead of altering your clothes to
flatter your body, it was all during your body to
flatter your clothes and to flatter fashion. Um and as
(24:06):
with so many UH sort of developments in women's fashion
and beauty over the years. On the one hand, not
having to wear layers and layers of petticoats and and
be you know, dressed so modestly set women free. It
was easier to move, it was more youthful, and you
(24:26):
could be more expressive with your fashion. But on the
other hand, it created you know, the the beauty and
body standards were just continually ratcheted up, and and that
really did help to fuel first Slottie Burke and then
and then the rise of UH women's fitness in general.
(24:46):
And by the way back to to Lottie Burke years ago,
I was waiting for you to did you come across
go figure as one of the So that was like
another version of Flatty Burke, So Greenwich, Connecticut. I'm in
dairy and so you know, it was a bar method
type thing started by you know, another woman, but long
story short, I I, you know, try everything, and I
remember being so humbled, uh in this room with these
(25:09):
women as you describe, you know, the typical bar class
and here I was this iron man, ultra marathon guy
and I was dying. I mean, just so humbled and
it's incredible and it's just amazing. Um. And what what
I love the kind of so much great stuff in
(25:30):
the book, but the the overall arching theme of how
exercise made women feel right, Because I'm a big one, Danielle.
You know, I work with a bunch of different fitness
companies and pushing for let's stop having you know, the
perfect bodies in the ads. Let's have that real person
and let's open this up to everyone. Because you talk
(25:50):
about and I saw two back when I used to
write for the magazines and things like that, and you
speak about this in the book. You'd have an article
on you know, fitness and loving your body, and the
next page would be an ad for something totally contradictory
to what that article and what the magazine is all about,
which is so problematic. So just talk about that a
little bit. Yeah, yeah, I mean, you know, and that's
(26:13):
still um we still see that to an extent today.
But I really think, as as one historian told me,
you know, there has there has been a kind of
buy in from capitalism, um, to the to the body positivity,
body neutrality, body acceptance movement. Um. When you look through magazines,
(26:37):
uh in in certainly in the fifties and sixties, but
but even in the seventies. Um that it's really it really,
I mean, it's endlessly entertaining, but it makes your head explode. Um.
There was one example in an issue of Cosmopolitan that
was edited by the legendary Helen Burly Brown at the time,
where um, there was an article that was literally titled
(27:02):
why I Hate Me, and it was meant to be
a kind of you know um uh, it was meant
to encourage women to cultivate self esteem. And then on
the next page was a full body what they called
a slenderizing wrath. It was mommifying yourself, and it was
just every page it was you know. There there were
those contradictions, of course, fueled by the advertising industry, among
(27:27):
among other things, but um, the advertising industry has never
unfortunately you know, gone wrong by um by highlighting aspects
of women's bodies that they should feel self conscious about
and that we should feel shame about and fear. And
so it's been it has been, and again I don't
want to oversell it, but over the past five ten years,
(27:51):
you know, it has been really encouraging to see the
ways in which that is changing and the tolerance for
that is just it has just gone way down. There's now,
as as one body activists told me, you know, or
really just explained in a really clarifying way. For so long,
(28:11):
the conversation around these topics, it was one way. It
was it was pop culture, arbiters, women's magazines, media telling women,
you know, this is how you should look, this is
what you should strive for, and women attempted to to follow.
And now because of social media, which again it's you know,
(28:32):
it's a double edged sword. However it has given as
this one activist, Avergie Tobar put it, a voice to
those who have always been the majority in numbers, you know,
but not in power really. And so now that there's
a two way conversation anytime, there is kind of I mean,
(28:52):
this is there's there's a lot to deconstructor with the
way that social media U dialogs happened, but for for
better or worth. When a major fitness company or beauty
you know uh company uh starts to be your bath
into that body shaming territory, there's just there there will
(29:17):
be a backlash and that, um, that is progress. And
we're seeing you know, so many more uh so much
more diversity of body size and shape on magazine covers,
in advertisements, in particularly um, among women's uh you know, athletes,
your brands. Again, it's not this is not to say
(29:38):
that the people uh making these decisions haven't necessarily had
and some kind of you know epanophany. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
but progress has to start somewhere. So you know, you
talk about and you know it's someone who was a
trainer for many years and trained you know, so many
(29:58):
people of all ages and and just you know, sizes
and everything. You just wanted to get across that. Of course,
you know people and you talk about in the book
to everyone wants to be a certain way, look a
certain way. You know, we are visual people. But you know,
a huge part of my philosophy and life's work, Danielle
is saying, yeah, but there's so many benefits to exercise
(30:21):
that you're missing out on when that's your focus and
you know, we don't want to focus on the scale.
And you know, the benefits of exercise psychologically that you
talk about are so huge, and you talk about how
empowering it is and it's it's cliche to talk about
but it but it's so true. You know it. I
know it, Uh, And many people are learning it now,
as you're saying, because we're getting away from that perfect
(30:43):
ideal and do it because it feels good first, Right,
you're gonna get the other two. I always say, Danielle, Right,
what good field going to live longer? Uh? You know,
I exercise for my sanity now used to be more humanity.
But you've gotta look better, um, and you're gonna feel
better and and that's exciting and that's a huge kind
of undercurrent of your book as well. Yes. Yes, And
(31:04):
so many women I interviewed, particularly women who discovered exercise
in the seventies and eighties, talked about how, you know,
the thing that originally got them in the door was
changing the way they looked fitting into a smaller sized
pair of jeans. But you know, they very quickly discovered
these more profound benefits, um for their mental health, for
(31:25):
their energy, for their you know, even their sense of
community and social belonging. Um. I was really influenced in
my research by uh Kelly mcgonical, the psychologist at Stanford
who most recently wrote The Joy of Movement, which is
just I don't know if you've you know, I just
(31:46):
for me her work and which basically, you know, she
she pulls together all of the latest research into the
psychological benefits of of movement. And that's just I kept
coming back to that throughout the whole process of why
you know, um, it's I know it's obvious on many levels,
(32:08):
but like why this really matters for our overall well being? Um?
And for reasons that go far beyond vanity or or
even you know, kind of clinical medical health. Um. Just overall,
what what's what's more important, you know than the pursuit
of of health and happiness and so um. Yeah, it
(32:31):
was very It was very encouraging to hear about women
who discovered that for themselves and who are now in
there some some of them, and they're you know, eighties
and nineties and are still reaping those rewards and still teaching.
I love like you know that the daughter you know,
I just incredible, but I love and kind of end
the book there, Um, you're talking about the psychology and
(32:52):
that's everything I'm about. You know, I always say that,
you know, we know we need to move more and
eat better, but how do we do that? And what's
the what's the special sauce? And what you're saying and
alluding to is you know, that magic of being in
a class, of being in a group, of moving together,
of that you know, synchronicity and just like incredible, um
(33:14):
feeling in a group setting. And you know what, Daniel,
that kind of makes me think. You know, with the
Pelotons of the world, it's great, we brought you know,
access into the home and you can do your workouts,
but there's nothing like being in that group setting. Uh
right now, as you talk about in the book with
the bar and all those different methodologies you tried out. Yeah,
(33:34):
and it just you know, it actually brings it back
to the marathon for me, um, which is fresh on
my mind after the race on Sunday. But but it
I every single time, I well, every time I watched
the New York City Marathon, which I'm fortunate that it
literally runs right by my apartment. Um, But even for me,
(33:55):
every time I'm waiting to start running a road race,
I cry, you know, I not no, I'm not weeping,
but I but I just feel that such it's such
a pure swell of emotion and and and I that
to me is precious. I mean, there's there are a
few things, I think for me that have the ability
(34:16):
to move me in such a reliable and visceral way.
And it's just that experience of of moving together in
a crowd, knowing that everyone everyone is trying, you know,
and and you know, I was thinking about what you
were the you highlighted the anecdote I talked about in
(34:36):
the book where the cab driver asked me if I
walked when I told him time, and and I should
I should mention too. I did run it with my dad,
who is the most passionate runner and is responsible for
for my interest in this sport. But he um, my
dad was slowing down for me. He was sixty eight.
But I mean, but I mentioned that because you know,
(35:02):
I'm I'm not an elite athlete. I'm a very I
think one of the reasons why I was really interested
in telling this story also is because I'm not I'm
not an instructor, I'm not an industry professional, and yet um,
exercise and movement have have had such a profound impact
on me, and I wanted to know how, you know
(35:23):
how and why just regular uh appreciators of movement and
fitness came to have access to the opportunities that we
now have today. How I could run a marathon when
just you know, fifty years ago, even the most elite
Olympic athletes, female athletes didn't have that opportunity. So, um,
(35:48):
you know it, fitness looks different for everyone. But I
think what we have in common is that it comes
down to you know, you don't have to look a
certain way or have a certain ability to benefit from
it in a very deep way. And I would argue
your passion and kind of connection, and I'm like you listen,
every finish line I cross, I cry, you know, it's
(36:09):
all it changes you and and I love and but
and I love that you're not that person, right, You're
not the fitness instructor, because I think that is one
of the reasons the book is so good. Not that
a fitness instructor could write a good book, but you
come at it in a different way that is so
unique and so just passionate and I love the chapter.
I tweeted it out. I was literally reading the chapter
(36:31):
on running, and you said you started with Katherine Switzer's quote,
if you're losing faith in human nature, go out and
watch a marathon. There's something so powerful about that. And everyone,
I would say, everyone has a story, and everyone's suffering together,
and at the end, everyone will you know, they're suffering
on the same course, in the same conditions, and everyone
will have a story and everyone will suffer. And all
(36:53):
those analogies again are so cliche, but they're so powerful,
And yeah, you really kind of get that across. I'll
give you a quick story. I a client many years ago.
Your book made me think of this, and we started
working together. She wanted to lose weight, and she was
a high executive and not in a great marriage. And
we started running, and I realized, to your point, um, Danielle,
so many of the women I worked with in their
(37:13):
forties and fifties weren't allowed to do exercise right, weren't
allowed to play sports for whatever reason. It wasn't the
fathers wouldn't let them. And there were amazing athletes that
we figured you're right, which was sad and amazing. So
long story short, we started doing five ks and then
ten ks and her husband wasn't supportive, and we finished
our first half marathon together. I paced her and I said,
(37:33):
you know what, you could run a marathon. And her
husband was at the finish line and he said, Childford
do it. We ran six around the world. She divorced
him at you know, ran on to such great things.
And and I think that's one of the kind of
themes of this book as well, is you know, so
many of the limitations that were put on women for
these reasons and others are changing. And and it's the
(37:55):
mental side, and it's the self confidence and the self
efficacy that comes from this with that great storyline of
the job Bras and Jock Bras and all the great
other things that you weave into it, what do you
want people to kind of get from this? The more
I understand kind of I mean, this is why I
wrote a book of history, but where you know, our
present opportunities came from, the more I appreciate what we
(38:19):
have and the more meaning, you know, those opportunities have
for me. So on one level, yes, I hope that
readers take away that that the opportunity to move um,
as well as as the access to move is still
a relatively recent privilege. And also that it's one that
you know can be harnessed for just for so much
(38:43):
good and so much beyond um the cosmetic um. And
and and finally you know that that the most important thing,
just based on my research, is moving in ways that
make us feel good. And that doesn't mean easy, it can,
you know, but um, running a marathon makes me feel
(39:05):
really good, you know, and so but it just it's
finding exercise should not be punitive, you know. And so
finding um, those the forms of fitness that that boost
us and make us feel good and um just help
to help to bolster our our mental health puts it
(39:28):
perfectly like a you know, period exclamation point on it.
It's that, as you said, and I was gonna give
you give them your line that it shouldn't be punitive.
And you know, when people say they don't like exercise, Danielletts,
I always say, you haven't found what you like. You
haven't found and there is no failure. You know, you
may try bar you may hate running. You know, I say,
swimming is not a sport, it's a means to keep
(39:49):
from drowning. I do try athalons, but you know, um,
there there's such power when you find that thing, and
you you will find it if you keep trying, you know,
But don't beat your self up. I love too, which
just real quickly, Uh when you talk about how perfect
you know, I used to teach a crunch many years
ago and I remember walking by a jump rope class
and I was like, oh my gosh, these people are amazing,
(40:10):
Like no how you would ever walk into that class
because they were so perfect. But don't be afraid of
finding that thing that you like. And and maybe you
do start at home as you talk about, um, you know,
with certain people and instructors. Um, but find that thing
and and it will be fun, it will feel good
and it may change over time to right you know exactly,
(40:31):
it probably will. Can you change? And don't beat yourself
up and go, oh, you know I used to spend
three times a week and now I don't feel like it.
You go, Okay, find that next thing, the zimba or
whatever it might be. Danielle, thank you so much for
taking the time. Thank you so much for writing this book.
You know, was just torturing. My wife kept you know,
reading parts to her and saying like how great and
the just all the things that I didn't know and
(40:52):
the people. Um, so it's called Let's Get Physical. They
can pre order now, right, Yeah, it's available wherever books
are sold. If you're into fitness, if you're into just
history of women and exercise, you will be blown away
the characters and again Danielle goes so deep and uh,
it's just it's an amazing book. So I cannot recommend
(41:13):
it more highly. Let's Get Physical How Women Discovered Exercise
and Reshape the World. Danielle, thank you so much for
taking the time and much success with this book. Thank
you so much for having me. This has been such
a pleasure. All right, thank you Danielle, And we will
be right back after this short break and we are back.
(41:35):
Thank you to Dan Yelle Freedman. Go out and get
this book. Order it, pre order it. Let's Get Physical,
How Women Discovered Exercise and Reshape the World. Awesome, awesome.
If you want to reach out to me questions comments, uh,
Tom Instagram, Tom h fit is Twitter, you can go
(41:59):
to iss Disrupted dot com email me through the site
as well. Uh. And my most recent book is The
Micro Workout Plan. You can order that a bunch of
great workouts in their home workouts just body weight and dumbbells.
So if you're in the market for something like that,
the Micro Workout Plan, and yes, if you have purchased
it and enjoyed it and Amazon review is greatly appreciated.
(42:24):
As Danielle will attest again, I just love, love, love
the fact that I get to speak with people like Danielle,
and I can't recommend this book more highly educational, entertaining
and unique and just awesome. Again. Let's get physical, all right,
Thank you so much for listening. Remember the three things
we all control, how much we move, what we put
(42:46):
into our mouths, and our attitudes. That, my friends, is awesome.
I am Tom Holland. This is Fitness Disrupted, Believing yourself.
Fitness Disrupted is a production of I Heart Radio. For
more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the i heart
Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your
(43:10):
favorite shows.
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