October 1, 2024 • 25 mins
Charley discusses the laws around theft involving an American Flag, and the challenges of changing the laws to protect the Stars and Stripes, including his attempt to change Arizona flag laws.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:07):
Welcome back in a couple of weeks, and I had
a bunch of news I want to pass along in
some housekeeping stuff. So first off, I want to start
off today's podcast with a huge thank you to all
of you who have assisted me along my journey to
be able to make this first season of Flags for
the Flag List the United Stories of America possible. You know,
(00:30):
the initial groundwork started and still is. There's just three
guys who simply wanted to share some inspiring stories of
love of country and the American flag. Doug and Jason
believed in me and knew what I had been doing
for the last ten years had to be shared with others.
(00:52):
And for that having the vision and believing in me,
I am forever indebted to the both of you. Other people,
I just want to mention real quick, was is my
friend Bob CAGIONI over at an in Flags, Vice president
of Sales, James Francis, Wendy Worden, Janet Dean lupetea esco
(01:15):
Joanne Thompson. All those folks you know, helped me pull
these stories together and allowed me to pass those stories along.
And I'd also want to give much love and thanks
to my two daughters who have given me the best
feedback and have proofread every single one of my stories
(01:37):
before they went out across the platform. So I love
them both so much and their patience with me is
beyond measure. I will tell you though, also that I've
never never told stories like I have. You know, these
past ten episodes I and if you listen from episode
(02:00):
one to today, you'll see you'll hear this, this, this,
this different progress, the you know how I've gotten better? Right,
And so I'm listening to podcasters who are telling stories.
You know, what's there, what's their take? How do they
do it? How do they prepare when do so I'm
learning as I go. So hopefully if you've listened to
(02:22):
all ten episodes, you've seen that, You've heard that, that, that professionalism,
the cadence, the just the way I tell my stories
has gotten better, I hope. So, So with that being said,
today's podcast will be the last one for this first season.
(02:44):
Today my team has produced and put out, including today,
is a total of ten podcasts which we all felt
needed to be shared with the rest of the world.
We are now starting to shift gear somewhat and we'll
hopefully start doing some traveling across the country and share
these stories and other stories in person. At the same time,
(03:04):
we'll be trying to get these stories and many others
which I have to visual media platforms such as YouTube,
and perhaps even into a series. So with the housekeeping
matters taking care of, I would like to dive into
my tenth story, which, like all the others, is one
which you've never heard before. In nineteen eighty four, an
(03:30):
activist was arrested outside the Republican National Convention in Dallas,
Texas for burning an American flag during a protest. The
activist was fined two thousand dollars and was sentenced to
one year in jail. The case was appealed and finally
made its way in front of the Supreme Court, and
in nineteen eighty nine, the Supreme Court held five to
(03:52):
four that the protesters flag burning was protected under the
freedom of speech and therefore the state of Texts could
not censor the protester nor punish him for his actions.
His case, which is known as Texas v. Johnson, had
set the precedent for the protection of the American flag
(04:14):
and the right to burn it. This ruling has been
contested in some form over the years, and the courts
have remained steadfast in its defense. States were quick to
pass legislation of their own to ban the burning of
an American flag, but as we know, federal law supersedes
(04:34):
state law. Thus, the court's decision remains the law of
the land when it comes to burning our nation's symbol.
As I look back on my twenty year career as
a police officer, I came to realize that street cops,
police officers, frontline law enforcement officers are defenders of the Constitution.
(04:57):
The chief of police that term. When I approached him
about having the American flag stitched on to our department uniforms.
I pitched this idea to him. His response was, we
police officers are defenders of the Constitution. We should have
the American flag on our uniforms. So, to carry my
(05:21):
point forward, over my twenty year law enforcement career, I
have taken reports and have heard stories about a crime
which is rarely spoken of in public. That crime that
not many of you have heard about are been aware of.
A crime is the targeting and theft of American flags.
(05:42):
I'm going to give you a few examples of what
I'm referring to, or my career. There was a large
American flag stolen not once, but twice from the flagpole
of a Baptist church here in Tucson. It was a
massive Americamerican flag and it was stolen right off of
their flagpole near the University here in Tucson. Another was
(06:08):
a car dealership here in town who had their large
American flag stolen along a major thoroughfare. I had a
tile and carpet store here in town. This was my
twentieth flag and the largest flagpole to date at the time,
stolen off of their flagpole. Another huge a flag that
(06:28):
you could see from about a mile away. If you
were coming down the road and you looked out, you
could see this flag a mile away, that's how large
it was. As I mentioned previously on a podcast, the
pet Cemetery here in town had a flag stolen from it.
And so the most recent one is I just rewroped
(06:52):
some flagpoles, probably about two three months ago, and I
went back the next day or two to check on,
check on and make sure they were still up, because
I've had instances where they've been stolen, and sure enough,
one of the flags was taken down, was gone. So
I put up a new flag, a little bit larger,
but it's still happening, right. This isn't a certain phase
(07:14):
or under a certain presidency, if you will. It's people
are out there targeting the American flag. And then the
last example I'm gonna give you, which is rather interesting,
as I was being interviewed by a reporter here at
the local ABC affiliate here in Tucson about the topic
(07:35):
of legislation and the thefts of American flags. She and
I went on one in the studio and she asked
me a bunch of questions. And after my interview was
concluded and I was walking out of the studio, I
saw the local weather man guy named Kyler Diggs, well known,
you know, like most weather guys in the town. Everybody
(07:57):
knows them, and the you know, big community activists, you know,
it helps out and does something the meuse. So Kyler
was there and he had overheard my interview with this
relatively new reporter, and he tells us both that he
had a flag stolen from his front porch prior to
moving to Tucson. He didn't call the cops since there
(08:18):
was nothing they could do. He told me he felt
the police had more important things to deal with, and
that the crime was so minimal it was not worth
the effort to even report that. So I thought that
was kind of cool. You know, here I am being
interviewed about it, and unbeknownst to myself or the reporter,
the weather man steps up and says, yeah, I've been
a victim of that as well. So it happens more
(08:39):
often than you want to believe. So by being a
witness to these stories, I was inspired to try and
find a way to protect our flag, maybe try and
get legislation passed. Not new legislation, but I wanted to
enhance the penalty of theft if an American flag was
(09:02):
the specific target in this theft. It didn't seem right
to me that if someone walked into a convenience store, say,
and stole a can of soda and some potato chips,
that stealing an American flag would be on the same level,
would be the same punishment. I knew that I didn't
(09:22):
want to try to create a new law, but we
already had a theft law on our books, should always say,
and I just wanted to enhance that punishment. And again,
it was to be if a flag was specifically targeted
while on display. Right, I'm not talking about someone took
(09:42):
a flag that was in a box in a store
and walked out with it. What I was hoping is
that if I'm flying an American flag, it's hanging off
a flatpole, it's hanging on a building in front of
my house, out to be seen, someone came and stole it.
But that's a targeted that's not a crime of opportunity.
You are specifically targeting the American flag. And so what
(10:06):
I want to do is I wanted to hance the
loss of the crime would be, instead of a low
level misdemeanor, to make a low level felony, trying to
add some sort of way to deter those who would
want to steal our nation symbol. So in doing some research,
I found that there is a state that actually has
(10:26):
a law like this already. That's the state of Missouri.
Did you know to show me state is the only
state in the country that has on its book that
stealing the American flag is a felonious act under Missouri law.
The Statute five seventy point zero three states that, and
I'm going to just read a little bit from their
(10:48):
statute says the defense of stealing is a class of
defelony if and then it goes onto lists instances where
the stealing of an item would be a felony. Here's
a part of that list. Credit device, debit device, any firearm,
any explosive weapon, any pleading notice, judgment, or any other
(11:10):
record or entry of any court in this state. Any
book of registration or list of voters. Any animal considered livestock,
any live fish raised for commercial sale with a value
of seventy five dollars or more. Any captive wildlife held
under permit issue by a conservative a conservation commission rather,
(11:34):
any controlled substances divined by a certain section ammonia, nitrate,
and and the statute includes any United States National flag, designed, intended,
and used for display on buildings or stationary flag staffs
(11:56):
in the open. So in twenty seventeen, I contacted a
representative of the Arizona Senate guy named John Kavanaugh, who,
unbeknownst to me at the time, was a retired police
officer from the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey.
He was a retired detective sergeant after twenty years of service,
and I explained to him when I first contact him
(12:18):
who I was and what I had hoped to achieve
with his help, And again I wanted to remind him
I did not want to create a new law. I
simply wanted to increase the current penalty from what is
a mid level misdemeanor crime to a more serious offense,
a low level felony for the crime of theft of
(12:40):
an American flag that's on display. So, without hesitation, mister
Kavanaugh agreed, immediately went to work and started writing a bill,
and that bill later became known as State Bill won
zero zero nine, just condensed down to SB ten zero
(13:01):
zero nine. And what I want to do is, I'm
just going to read you what the bills wording was
at the time, says its purpose for SB ten zero
nine was to increase of penalty from a class one
misdemeanor to a class six felony for the crime of
(13:22):
theft of an American flag on display. Says the background here.
Currently statute does not mandate specific penalties for theft of
the American flag. Penalties associate with theft are generally based
on the monetary value of the object stolen. Theft of
an object with a monetary value under one thousand dollars
(13:42):
carries a Class one misdemeanor charge. However, if the stolen
object is a firearm or an animal stolen for the
purpose of animal fighting, it carries a class six felony charge.
Class one carry a maximum jail sentence of six months
(14:03):
plus a two five hundred dollars fine, whereas class six
felonies carry a presumptive one year prison sentence for a
non violent first time offenders. Missouri also classifies a theft
as an American flag. It states here there is no
anticipated physical impact to the state General fund associate with
(14:25):
the legislation, and the provision again increases the penalty for
the theft of an American flag that is on display
for other than its retail sale, from a class one
misdemeanor to a class six felony. It's simply a technical change,
and it would become effective on the general effective date
that says here, So Arizona. Many other states already have
(14:50):
a law in the books making a misdemeanor crime to
abuse a flag. State statute describes abuse to include drawing
on pass, contempt upon, mutilating, defacing, defiling, burning, trampling, or
otherwise dishonoring, or causing to bring dishonor upon a flag. However,
(15:13):
as I have previously said, the United States Supreme Court
takes precedence over the state law in some of these instances,
declaring flag desecration pre speech under the First Amendment. So,
after mister Kavanaugh had Bill up, I along with some
(15:35):
others were called to testify in front of the State
Judiciary Committee in Phoenix. And these other folks were victims
who had had their large American flag stolen. We've thought
it'd be best to have some of the victims there to
be able to testify that, look, this is legit, this
is really happening, and I wanted them to kind of
(15:56):
give their side their story. During my testimony, one of
the questions asked to me is if I knew who
was stealing the American flags and if so, what was
their reason? And I kind of figured this would be
asked to me and are responding, you know, we don't know,
(16:16):
because whoever steals an American flag does it under the
cover of darkness and are such cowards that they never
come forward to admit what they have done, So we
don't know who or what their reasons are. Another person
who testified that day was my friend Ed Edenfield. It's
(16:37):
the pastor of the Baptist church I mentioned earlier, which
had its flag stolen at once, but on two occasions
back to back. So here we have a huge American
flag flying in front of a Baptist church stolen twice
back to back times. You're telling me that's not a
(16:57):
targeted prime that there is in some sort of that's
not a crime of opportunity. Right. He was and still
is the pastor over at Tucson's first Southern Baptist Church.
With the second theft of the flag, bolk cutters were
used to steal not only the flag but the cable
(17:19):
with which the flag was attached to. This was clearly
a target attack because I stated, and I'll read to
you a portion of what Pastor had testified to that
day at this hearing. Pastor Ed said, we see this
as an attack on our ministry. To not have our
(17:44):
flag out there changes us from boldly looking like we're
in business to like we've just closed our doors. Pastor
continued and said the flag represents the freedom of people
to worship as they want. So after a day of
(18:05):
testifying amongst us, eventually SB ten zero nine was passed
by that state panel, and from there it went to
the full Senate to get voted on, and it didn't
have enough votes to move forward after a vote was taken,
and this is where the bill essentially died. And as
(18:27):
far as I know, there has been no one since
my attempt in twenty seventeen to get such a bill passed,
and at the time I had some negative feedback, and
as you can imagine, I'm sure today I would still
get some negative feedback if this was to come back
up and be a topic of discussion again, from people
(18:48):
who thought that there were enough laws as it was
already and there was no need for any more laws.
Back in twenty seventeen, when this topic was up and
kind of in the forefront of people's minds, there was
a poll conducted by a Phoenix news station which revealed
that forty one percent of respondents were in favor of
(19:11):
increasing the punishment to a felony, whereas fifty nine percent
of those who responded were against it. My response to
those detractors was that again, I'm not creating a new law.
I just wanted to amend an existing law. That's it. Nonetheless,
(19:32):
the bill failed. I feel, and this is in my
opinion along with a few others, that it was because
of the lack of details which were put four in
the provision. The Arizona provision stated that it increases the
penalty for the theft of an American flag that is
on display for other than its retail sale, Whereas when
(19:56):
you read the Missouri's provision, it states any United States
national flag design intended and used for display on buildings
or stationary flag staffs in the open right. Missouri's provision
much more detailed and narrowed in on what defines the flag,
(20:17):
where Arizona's back in two thousands it was too vague.
One more point of history I want to mention is
that in two thousand and five, elected officials such as
Hillary Clinton, Barbara Boxer, Mark Pryor, and others, they brought
a bill to the United States Congress which became known
(20:38):
as the Flag Protection Act. This was the closest the
country had come to bring it about legislation in response
to that nineteen eighty seven Supreme Court ruling of Texas v. Johnson.
Although the Supreme Court ruled in Texas v. Johnson that
flag burning was protected by the first Amendment. The bill,
(21:00):
this Flag Protection Act, was intended, according to The New
York Times, to take the issue back to the Supreme Court,
which was more conservative in two thousand and five than
it was in nineteen eighty nine, in order to overturn
that earlier decision. Since the law was not passed or
(21:22):
even considered in two thousand and five by the United
States Congress, its constitutionality was never challenged in the Supreme Court.
So I feel pretty confident in saying that the Supreme
Court today in twenty twenty four, twenty twenty four, most
(21:43):
likely is more conservative now than it was in two
thousand and five. But our nation, our elected officials are
more divided now than ever before in our country's history.
But talking to some folks, people I trust, people I
(22:08):
believe in, now just might be the time to try
and pass some protection for the symbol of our country.
But we need some good news, right. It feel like
this country needs some good news about our nation and
the symbol which represents us all, and that's the flag. Right,
(22:29):
It doesn't hurt, wouldn't hurt. Try. I will state this
to those of you listening to this final podcast of
the first season that The flag of the United States
is both a legally described symbol of our federal government
(22:50):
and its sovereignty, and an important wellspring of culture, loyalty, pride, unity,
and resolve. Flag is a national resource and treasure worthy
of protection. If now isn't the best time to offer
up that protection for her, when will be, although ever,
(23:14):
really be a good time to try. I appreciate you
listening today. If you want some more details about this
podcast or any of the previous ones which I've aired,
I asked that you please head over to social media
and check out flags or the flagless. The best spot
(23:36):
to start would be on Facebook, Meta whatever it's all
these days, it's there. I've posted videos, articles, and some
photos pertaining to all of my podcasts. And if you
have a story about a stolen American flag, let me know.
You know, I know what's happening. Yeah, do you have
any questions, concerns, comments, good or bad? I know this
(24:02):
is the subject can be a lightning rod for some
other stuff, but just let me know. This is what
makes our country so great is that we're able to
have conversations like this. Good bad, new laws, no laws,
enhanced laws, penalties, protection of the flag You know, that's
(24:22):
all I want to do is have a conversation. So again,
I appreciate your time and listening to these podcasts, and
I look forward to coming back to you after the
first year and bring you some more pretty cool, interesting
stories and historic facts about what I've been through.
Speaker 2 (24:39):
Thank you, Thank you for joining us on this episode
of Flags for the Flag List. This episode was produced
by Charlie Foley, Doug Levy, and Jason Wikol. To listen
to Charlie's newest episodes, please download and subscribe through your
favorite podcast service, and if you like the show enough,
leave a review. Your thoughts would greatly be appreciated. Flags
(25:03):
for the Flagless United Stories of America is proudly produced
and distributed by the eight Side Network.
Welcome back in a couple of weeks, and I had
a bunch of news I want to pass along in
some housekeeping stuff. So first off, I want to start
off today's podcast with a huge thank you to all
of you who have assisted me along my journey to
be able to make this first season of Flags for
the Flag List the United Stories of America possible. You know,
(00:30):
the initial groundwork started and still is. There's just three
guys who simply wanted to share some inspiring stories of
love of country and the American flag. Doug and Jason
believed in me and knew what I had been doing
for the last ten years had to be shared with others.
(00:52):
And for that having the vision and believing in me,
I am forever indebted to the both of you. Other people,
I just want to mention real quick, was is my
friend Bob CAGIONI over at an in Flags, Vice president
of Sales, James Francis, Wendy Worden, Janet Dean lupetea esco
(01:15):
Joanne Thompson. All those folks you know, helped me pull
these stories together and allowed me to pass those stories along.
And I'd also want to give much love and thanks
to my two daughters who have given me the best
feedback and have proofread every single one of my stories
(01:37):
before they went out across the platform. So I love
them both so much and their patience with me is
beyond measure. I will tell you though, also that I've
never never told stories like I have. You know, these
past ten episodes I and if you listen from episode
(02:00):
one to today, you'll see you'll hear this, this, this,
this different progress, the you know how I've gotten better? Right,
And so I'm listening to podcasters who are telling stories.
You know, what's there, what's their take? How do they
do it? How do they prepare when do so I'm
learning as I go. So hopefully if you've listened to
(02:22):
all ten episodes, you've seen that, You've heard that, that, that professionalism,
the cadence, the just the way I tell my stories
has gotten better, I hope. So, So with that being said,
today's podcast will be the last one for this first season.
(02:44):
Today my team has produced and put out, including today,
is a total of ten podcasts which we all felt
needed to be shared with the rest of the world.
We are now starting to shift gear somewhat and we'll
hopefully start doing some traveling across the country and share
these stories and other stories in person. At the same time,
(03:04):
we'll be trying to get these stories and many others
which I have to visual media platforms such as YouTube,
and perhaps even into a series. So with the housekeeping
matters taking care of, I would like to dive into
my tenth story, which, like all the others, is one
which you've never heard before. In nineteen eighty four, an
(03:30):
activist was arrested outside the Republican National Convention in Dallas,
Texas for burning an American flag during a protest. The
activist was fined two thousand dollars and was sentenced to
one year in jail. The case was appealed and finally
made its way in front of the Supreme Court, and
in nineteen eighty nine, the Supreme Court held five to
(03:52):
four that the protesters flag burning was protected under the
freedom of speech and therefore the state of Texts could
not censor the protester nor punish him for his actions.
His case, which is known as Texas v. Johnson, had
set the precedent for the protection of the American flag
(04:14):
and the right to burn it. This ruling has been
contested in some form over the years, and the courts
have remained steadfast in its defense. States were quick to
pass legislation of their own to ban the burning of
an American flag, but as we know, federal law supersedes
(04:34):
state law. Thus, the court's decision remains the law of
the land when it comes to burning our nation's symbol.
As I look back on my twenty year career as
a police officer, I came to realize that street cops,
police officers, frontline law enforcement officers are defenders of the Constitution.
(04:57):
The chief of police that term. When I approached him
about having the American flag stitched on to our department uniforms.
I pitched this idea to him. His response was, we
police officers are defenders of the Constitution. We should have
the American flag on our uniforms. So, to carry my
(05:21):
point forward, over my twenty year law enforcement career, I
have taken reports and have heard stories about a crime
which is rarely spoken of in public. That crime that
not many of you have heard about are been aware of.
A crime is the targeting and theft of American flags.
(05:42):
I'm going to give you a few examples of what
I'm referring to, or my career. There was a large
American flag stolen not once, but twice from the flagpole
of a Baptist church here in Tucson. It was a
massive Americamerican flag and it was stolen right off of
their flagpole near the University here in Tucson. Another was
(06:08):
a car dealership here in town who had their large
American flag stolen along a major thoroughfare. I had a
tile and carpet store here in town. This was my
twentieth flag and the largest flagpole to date at the time,
stolen off of their flagpole. Another huge a flag that
(06:28):
you could see from about a mile away. If you
were coming down the road and you looked out, you
could see this flag a mile away, that's how large
it was. As I mentioned previously on a podcast, the
pet Cemetery here in town had a flag stolen from it.
And so the most recent one is I just rewroped
(06:52):
some flagpoles, probably about two three months ago, and I
went back the next day or two to check on,
check on and make sure they were still up, because
I've had instances where they've been stolen, and sure enough,
one of the flags was taken down, was gone. So
I put up a new flag, a little bit larger,
but it's still happening, right. This isn't a certain phase
(07:14):
or under a certain presidency, if you will. It's people
are out there targeting the American flag. And then the
last example I'm gonna give you, which is rather interesting,
as I was being interviewed by a reporter here at
the local ABC affiliate here in Tucson about the topic
(07:35):
of legislation and the thefts of American flags. She and
I went on one in the studio and she asked
me a bunch of questions. And after my interview was
concluded and I was walking out of the studio, I
saw the local weather man guy named Kyler Diggs, well known,
you know, like most weather guys in the town. Everybody
(07:57):
knows them, and the you know, big community activists, you know,
it helps out and does something the meuse. So Kyler
was there and he had overheard my interview with this
relatively new reporter, and he tells us both that he
had a flag stolen from his front porch prior to
moving to Tucson. He didn't call the cops since there
(08:18):
was nothing they could do. He told me he felt
the police had more important things to deal with, and
that the crime was so minimal it was not worth
the effort to even report that. So I thought that
was kind of cool. You know, here I am being
interviewed about it, and unbeknownst to myself or the reporter,
the weather man steps up and says, yeah, I've been
a victim of that as well. So it happens more
(08:39):
often than you want to believe. So by being a
witness to these stories, I was inspired to try and
find a way to protect our flag, maybe try and
get legislation passed. Not new legislation, but I wanted to
enhance the penalty of theft if an American flag was
(09:02):
the specific target in this theft. It didn't seem right
to me that if someone walked into a convenience store, say,
and stole a can of soda and some potato chips,
that stealing an American flag would be on the same level,
would be the same punishment. I knew that I didn't
(09:22):
want to try to create a new law, but we
already had a theft law on our books, should always say,
and I just wanted to enhance that punishment. And again,
it was to be if a flag was specifically targeted
while on display. Right, I'm not talking about someone took
(09:42):
a flag that was in a box in a store
and walked out with it. What I was hoping is
that if I'm flying an American flag, it's hanging off
a flatpole, it's hanging on a building in front of
my house, out to be seen, someone came and stole it.
But that's a targeted that's not a crime of opportunity.
You are specifically targeting the American flag. And so what
(10:06):
I want to do is I wanted to hance the
loss of the crime would be, instead of a low
level misdemeanor, to make a low level felony, trying to
add some sort of way to deter those who would
want to steal our nation symbol. So in doing some research,
I found that there is a state that actually has
(10:26):
a law like this already. That's the state of Missouri.
Did you know to show me state is the only
state in the country that has on its book that
stealing the American flag is a felonious act under Missouri law.
The Statute five seventy point zero three states that, and
I'm going to just read a little bit from their
(10:48):
statute says the defense of stealing is a class of
defelony if and then it goes onto lists instances where
the stealing of an item would be a felony. Here's
a part of that list. Credit device, debit device, any firearm,
any explosive weapon, any pleading notice, judgment, or any other
(11:10):
record or entry of any court in this state. Any
book of registration or list of voters. Any animal considered livestock,
any live fish raised for commercial sale with a value
of seventy five dollars or more. Any captive wildlife held
under permit issue by a conservative a conservation commission rather,
(11:34):
any controlled substances divined by a certain section ammonia, nitrate,
and and the statute includes any United States National flag, designed, intended,
and used for display on buildings or stationary flag staffs
(11:56):
in the open. So in twenty seventeen, I contacted a
representative of the Arizona Senate guy named John Kavanaugh, who,
unbeknownst to me at the time, was a retired police
officer from the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey.
He was a retired detective sergeant after twenty years of service,
and I explained to him when I first contact him
(12:18):
who I was and what I had hoped to achieve
with his help, And again I wanted to remind him
I did not want to create a new law. I
simply wanted to increase the current penalty from what is
a mid level misdemeanor crime to a more serious offense,
a low level felony for the crime of theft of
(12:40):
an American flag that's on display. So, without hesitation, mister
Kavanaugh agreed, immediately went to work and started writing a bill,
and that bill later became known as State Bill won
zero zero nine, just condensed down to SB ten zero
(13:01):
zero nine. And what I want to do is, I'm
just going to read you what the bills wording was
at the time, says its purpose for SB ten zero
nine was to increase of penalty from a class one
misdemeanor to a class six felony for the crime of
(13:22):
theft of an American flag on display. Says the background here.
Currently statute does not mandate specific penalties for theft of
the American flag. Penalties associate with theft are generally based
on the monetary value of the object stolen. Theft of
an object with a monetary value under one thousand dollars
(13:42):
carries a Class one misdemeanor charge. However, if the stolen
object is a firearm or an animal stolen for the
purpose of animal fighting, it carries a class six felony charge.
Class one carry a maximum jail sentence of six months
(14:03):
plus a two five hundred dollars fine, whereas class six
felonies carry a presumptive one year prison sentence for a
non violent first time offenders. Missouri also classifies a theft
as an American flag. It states here there is no
anticipated physical impact to the state General fund associate with
(14:25):
the legislation, and the provision again increases the penalty for
the theft of an American flag that is on display
for other than its retail sale, from a class one
misdemeanor to a class six felony. It's simply a technical change,
and it would become effective on the general effective date
that says here, So Arizona. Many other states already have
(14:50):
a law in the books making a misdemeanor crime to
abuse a flag. State statute describes abuse to include drawing
on pass, contempt upon, mutilating, defacing, defiling, burning, trampling, or
otherwise dishonoring, or causing to bring dishonor upon a flag. However,
(15:13):
as I have previously said, the United States Supreme Court
takes precedence over the state law in some of these instances,
declaring flag desecration pre speech under the First Amendment. So,
after mister Kavanaugh had Bill up, I along with some
(15:35):
others were called to testify in front of the State
Judiciary Committee in Phoenix. And these other folks were victims
who had had their large American flag stolen. We've thought
it'd be best to have some of the victims there to
be able to testify that, look, this is legit, this
is really happening, and I wanted them to kind of
(15:56):
give their side their story. During my testimony, one of
the questions asked to me is if I knew who
was stealing the American flags and if so, what was
their reason? And I kind of figured this would be
asked to me and are responding, you know, we don't know,
(16:16):
because whoever steals an American flag does it under the
cover of darkness and are such cowards that they never
come forward to admit what they have done, So we
don't know who or what their reasons are. Another person
who testified that day was my friend Ed Edenfield. It's
(16:37):
the pastor of the Baptist church I mentioned earlier, which
had its flag stolen at once, but on two occasions
back to back. So here we have a huge American
flag flying in front of a Baptist church stolen twice
back to back times. You're telling me that's not a
(16:57):
targeted prime that there is in some sort of that's
not a crime of opportunity. Right. He was and still
is the pastor over at Tucson's first Southern Baptist Church.
With the second theft of the flag, bolk cutters were
used to steal not only the flag but the cable
(17:19):
with which the flag was attached to. This was clearly
a target attack because I stated, and I'll read to
you a portion of what Pastor had testified to that
day at this hearing. Pastor Ed said, we see this
as an attack on our ministry. To not have our
(17:44):
flag out there changes us from boldly looking like we're
in business to like we've just closed our doors. Pastor
continued and said the flag represents the freedom of people
to worship as they want. So after a day of
(18:05):
testifying amongst us, eventually SB ten zero nine was passed
by that state panel, and from there it went to
the full Senate to get voted on, and it didn't
have enough votes to move forward after a vote was taken,
and this is where the bill essentially died. And as
(18:27):
far as I know, there has been no one since
my attempt in twenty seventeen to get such a bill passed,
and at the time I had some negative feedback, and
as you can imagine, I'm sure today I would still
get some negative feedback if this was to come back
up and be a topic of discussion again, from people
(18:48):
who thought that there were enough laws as it was
already and there was no need for any more laws.
Back in twenty seventeen, when this topic was up and
kind of in the forefront of people's minds, there was
a poll conducted by a Phoenix news station which revealed
that forty one percent of respondents were in favor of
(19:11):
increasing the punishment to a felony, whereas fifty nine percent
of those who responded were against it. My response to
those detractors was that again, I'm not creating a new law.
I just wanted to amend an existing law. That's it. Nonetheless,
(19:32):
the bill failed. I feel, and this is in my
opinion along with a few others, that it was because
of the lack of details which were put four in
the provision. The Arizona provision stated that it increases the
penalty for the theft of an American flag that is
on display for other than its retail sale, Whereas when
(19:56):
you read the Missouri's provision, it states any United States
national flag design intended and used for display on buildings
or stationary flag staffs in the open right. Missouri's provision
much more detailed and narrowed in on what defines the flag,
(20:17):
where Arizona's back in two thousands it was too vague.
One more point of history I want to mention is
that in two thousand and five, elected officials such as
Hillary Clinton, Barbara Boxer, Mark Pryor, and others, they brought
a bill to the United States Congress which became known
(20:38):
as the Flag Protection Act. This was the closest the
country had come to bring it about legislation in response
to that nineteen eighty seven Supreme Court ruling of Texas v. Johnson.
Although the Supreme Court ruled in Texas v. Johnson that
flag burning was protected by the first Amendment. The bill,
(21:00):
this Flag Protection Act, was intended, according to The New
York Times, to take the issue back to the Supreme Court,
which was more conservative in two thousand and five than
it was in nineteen eighty nine, in order to overturn
that earlier decision. Since the law was not passed or
(21:22):
even considered in two thousand and five by the United
States Congress, its constitutionality was never challenged in the Supreme Court.
So I feel pretty confident in saying that the Supreme
Court today in twenty twenty four, twenty twenty four, most
(21:43):
likely is more conservative now than it was in two
thousand and five. But our nation, our elected officials are
more divided now than ever before in our country's history.
But talking to some folks, people I trust, people I
(22:08):
believe in, now just might be the time to try
and pass some protection for the symbol of our country.
But we need some good news, right. It feel like
this country needs some good news about our nation and
the symbol which represents us all, and that's the flag. Right,
(22:29):
It doesn't hurt, wouldn't hurt. Try. I will state this
to those of you listening to this final podcast of
the first season that The flag of the United States
is both a legally described symbol of our federal government
(22:50):
and its sovereignty, and an important wellspring of culture, loyalty, pride, unity,
and resolve. Flag is a national resource and treasure worthy
of protection. If now isn't the best time to offer
up that protection for her, when will be, although ever,
(23:14):
really be a good time to try. I appreciate you
listening today. If you want some more details about this
podcast or any of the previous ones which I've aired,
I asked that you please head over to social media
and check out flags or the flagless. The best spot
(23:36):
to start would be on Facebook, Meta whatever it's all
these days, it's there. I've posted videos, articles, and some
photos pertaining to all of my podcasts. And if you
have a story about a stolen American flag, let me know.
You know, I know what's happening. Yeah, do you have
any questions, concerns, comments, good or bad? I know this
(24:02):
is the subject can be a lightning rod for some
other stuff, but just let me know. This is what
makes our country so great is that we're able to
have conversations like this. Good bad, new laws, no laws,
enhanced laws, penalties, protection of the flag You know, that's
(24:22):
all I want to do is have a conversation. So again,
I appreciate your time and listening to these podcasts, and
I look forward to coming back to you after the
first year and bring you some more pretty cool, interesting
stories and historic facts about what I've been through.
Speaker 2 (24:39):
Thank you, Thank you for joining us on this episode
of Flags for the Flag List. This episode was produced
by Charlie Foley, Doug Levy, and Jason Wikol. To listen
to Charlie's newest episodes, please download and subscribe through your
favorite podcast service, and if you like the show enough,
leave a review. Your thoughts would greatly be appreciated. Flags
(25:03):
for the Flagless United Stories of America is proudly produced
and distributed by the eight Side Network.
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