August 6, 2024 • 46 mins
Have you ever wondered where U.S. flags come from and who makes them? Charley interviews Bob Caggiano, VP Sales at Annin flags, who discusses the rules of the flag, Annin’s history in making U.S. flags, and a special Annin flag that covered the casket of President Abraham Lincoln.
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Today, I want to introduce my newest and could be
one of my best friends here I think and dead,
is Bob Cagioni. Bob is the vice president of commercial
Sales for Annin Flagmakers, the oldest and largest flagmaker in
the United States, and Bob has worked for them for
(00:28):
I think it's forty seven, forty eight years, Bob, which
is it going to be?
Speaker 2 (00:32):
This will be my forty eighth year.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
Unbelievable, it is, it really is.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
We have a lot of employees that's been around for
a while.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
That's awesome, and so that shows a commitment to the leadership,
the management style and the company. I'm sure what you
guys are selling in your product, they stand by it.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
So right, all of those, Charlie.
Speaker 3 (00:54):
So let's start with just the basics.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
Tell me, uh a brief history of ann and how
it got started, and then tell me how what have
you done to stay in the forefront of the flag
making business?
Speaker 3 (01:12):
Right? You guys are everywhere I go.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
I'm always looking at flags, whether it's this you know,
home deepo or this Walmart. You know, I'm just looking
and Annon shows up almost everywhere. How do you do it?
But tell us how it started? To get to where
you are now.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
Okay, Actually, it's an interesting story of Annon actually started
in downtown New York City in eighteen twenty as a
ship's channeler, supplying ships that came into the Hudson River.
At the time, I think New York City was one
of the major ports in the US, and so that's
how the business really started. At the same time, they
(01:49):
were also producing flags for the same ships. They came
into the Hudson in eighteen forty seven, they primarily became
a flag company. So in reality, you know, And has
been around for about two hundred and four years, but
as and in the flag manufacturer goes, it's been around
for one hundred and seventy seven years. But what's really interesting, Charlie,
(02:13):
if you used the eighteen twenty date, that would make
Ann and I believe the twentieth oldest company still in
business in the US. And I think that's right after
Brooks Brothers, who is started in eighteen nineteen, and they
are the nineteenth largest. So it's yeah, it's something we're
really really proud of, you know, and you know how
(02:36):
we stayed in business so long. What's the famous saying,
we're not we're not the best because we're the oldest.
We're the oldest because we are the best, you know,
and has always been known for its their quality, reliability,
service and integrity. We offer the most extensive line in
(02:57):
the industry and have great service. I mean, it's it's
a testimony to the employees and management because, like I said,
you know earlier that I've been there forty seven years
as another person there who's been the same time. And
you know, I bet you our average ages employees other
than the factory workers, a noun of the years has
(03:17):
got to be at least twenty five years love it.
So it's just yeah, yeah, people fall in love with
our product.
Speaker 1 (03:23):
I don't know if I've asked you this in a
previous conversation. When are you going to retire? Is there
some is there some benchmark that you're looking at, or
just when the time's right, you're just going to walk away, you.
Speaker 2 (03:35):
Know, Charlie, you know what's really great about this industry.
I mean, we sell small modern popper retailers, and then
we also sell the big chains like Walmart and stuff,
and you know I've done both, and but you know,
my primary job now is a VP of the Independent resellers,
(03:57):
and these people, I mean, they're just absolutely the salt
of the earth. They are the absolute nicest people in
the world. And I've enjoyed them. I know. My kids
have always said, Dan, how can you you know, And
of course when they were living home, how could you,
you know, wake up and want to go to work
and have a smile on your face. Well, you know,
maybe it's just my mental state, but it's also because
(04:18):
the people I was dealing with are just the nicest
people in the world. And so the answer to your
question is when I stop enjoying it, and I you know,
I'm on my computer by seven thirty in the morning,
and you know, I mean sometimes I leave to play
golf at four o'clock or something like that, or but
you know, also help me on the computer at eight
(04:39):
o'clock at night.
Speaker 1 (04:39):
But you've paid your dues too, is how I look
at it. So if you want to cut out off
after forty plus years.
Speaker 3 (04:45):
At the county, okay, you know, I think you should
be able to do that.
Speaker 2 (04:48):
So yeah, no, and actually the president of the company
is very very good at that. You've got something to do,
you do it, don't worry about it. Just get your
job done and do it right. And so he's really
really good at that, and that that goes for all
all the employees. Get your job done, and you know,
he gives you a lot of leeway. So it's it's
been great. So when I stop having fun, then you
(05:08):
hang it out. Yeah, yeah, all.
Speaker 1 (05:10):
Right, let's get into some Let's get into the nuts
and bolts a little bit if you don't mind of
an and sure, easy one. How many American flags do
you think you sell in a given year. I'm not
talking stick flags, I'm not talking custom flags. If you
could break it down to just American you know, flag
(05:34):
pole flags, how many a year?
Speaker 2 (05:37):
Well, we're privately held, so we don't divulge that information.
If you ask me what our sales numbers were, I
couldn't tell you. I don't. I couldn't tell you because
we're privately help. The entire flag industry is privately held,
and none of that information is out there. We try
to guess to see, you know what our competition sales are,
and well we think there this million. I can I
(05:57):
can't tell you we make more than a million a year, though.
Speaker 1 (06:00):
So could what's your guesstimate for your competition. Then what
do you think your competition is putting out a year?
Speaker 2 (06:08):
Well, I don't know how many in the way of flags,
but we think as manufacturers the industry may be about
two hundred and twenty five million dollars annually.
Speaker 1 (06:19):
All right, and so I don't know then, based on
what you had just mentioned, though, I like putting up
both your tough techs American flags, right, the polyester and
then you have a nile nile glow if I'm saying
that right, the nylons, which I prefer only because you know,
(06:41):
as you know, with the nylon man, as soon as
the wind hits it, they're up, they're flowing, they're bright. Now,
they don't last as long as a polyester. But I
like putting up those nylon flags. Out of the two,
which would you say sells more the polyester ones or
the nylon nile go.
Speaker 2 (07:00):
Probably that's a great question. Okay, So the nylon sells
more in the smaller sizes you know, three by five,
four by six, five by eight and even six by
ten you get eight by twelves and larger. The polyester
sells more. Why it's more expensive, it's more durable. But
(07:21):
you are correct, the nylon flies in the lightest breeze
and the polyester needs a little heavier breeze to lift
it up. But therein is the answer why if nylon
flag doesn't last quite as long as the polyester because
it's not up there flapping around in the breeze and
where you know, the polyester. Sure it takes a little
bit more miles per hour of wind to lift it up,
(07:44):
but you know, generally, I mean, it just won't be
flapping around as much as the nylon does. But so really,
the nylon on the small sizes up to six by
ten sell better. The polyester is better seller on eight
by twelves and larger. You know, you often get asked,
you know, of course we're wholesale only strictly wholesale, but
we'll get asked, you know, by consumers or something, well
(08:06):
what flag should I fly? Well, the question do you
want to flag flying all the time or do you
just want something up there that says, hey, I want
to flag on the flag pole. Yeah, that's the answer.
Speaker 1 (08:17):
That's a tough you know, it's a tough question. And
I'm thinking of someone said, well, what kind of you know,
which of these two flags would you recommend, like, just
like what you said, is it going to be up
twenty four to seven? Are you going to take it down?
Speaker 3 (08:31):
You know?
Speaker 1 (08:33):
Do you want to fly constantly in the wind or
you know, So it just depends on kind of the
environment that that flag is going to be placed in
will determine I feel, which of the two I would suggest.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
So I agree with you one hundred percent. I listened.
I used to have a flag when I had my
home before I moved into a town home. I had
a twenty foot pole in front of my house and
I would just fly a nylon And then I moved,
you know, but then when I moved to town home,
I couldn't have a ground pole, so I flew off
(09:05):
the porch and it was a nylon flag, you know,
to me, the only flag you really needed. Small sizes
in nylon. But people like the polyester because it is durable,
kind of has the feel of a traditional cotton flag,
you know, if you get the flag views, they kind
of want the cotton flag, you know, but the nylon
(09:25):
is really probably my fabric of choice. That's my personal opinion.
Speaker 1 (09:30):
Next question for you, with the Olympics coming up this July,
right in a few months. Do you anticipate or are
do you already see a need or an uptick in
sales that you can attribute possibly to the Olympics coming up.
Speaker 2 (09:45):
The Olympics never had a major impact on sales. That
being said, if we were doing business with the Olympic
Committee or their decorators, and we did that during the
games and the last time I think was Salt Lake City,
(10:05):
yeah we would see we would see an uptick, but
that's you know, that's for usage at the stadiums and stuff.
Normally it doesn't you know, you know, it may may
go up by half a point or something like that,
it's just not a significant uptickt Now the presidential elections
are a little bit different, and there you can see
(10:27):
an uptick in flags, especially since twenty sixteen when President
Trump ran, well when Trump ran for president, you know,
there was an uptick then because the people are flat waivers.
Not to say the Democrats aren't, but the Republicans seem
(10:48):
to fire up their base more and you know, so
you know, there's so in twenty sixteen we saw an uptick.
Twenty and twenty we did, and we will see an
up take a little later in this year as we
get closer to the election.
Speaker 1 (11:04):
Okay, and that well, let me go with this one.
And I think I know the answer already. But the
largest run of flags that you have had to manufacture
in the history of annen World War two presidential election.
Is there a particular time or event and what caused
(11:27):
or what what made you guys have to manufacture so
many flags?
Speaker 2 (11:31):
You know, flags are flags are pretty much consistent in
their sales. But when you have an event, I mean,
I don't you know, I've been around a long time,
and I know our competition. No one ever has seemed
to create a sale for a US flag where flags
really took off other than a war event. So I
(11:52):
was I was at the tail end of you know,
the two hundredth anniversary actually started in August, so that
was pretty much over. But I remember Desert Storm. Uh,
you know, we attacked Iraq and went into Iraq and
sales took off. And uh, as soon as the war
(12:13):
was declared over, sales went right down. Interesting, Yeah, I
mean they went they were as quickly as they went up,
they went back to normal. Now nine to eleven was
a little bit different. So now we were attacked on
our you know, in our home homeland, and sales spiked.
I mean, never forget. I was on a plane somewhere
(12:35):
and someone said to me, oh, what do you do?
What do you produce? And I kind of I gave
an answer, well, what do you think is the most
sought after product right now? And she said flags? And
I said and she and I said, that's right. So
the interesting story was, okay, so here it is nine
to eleven. Our shells were empty, uh maybe five six
(12:58):
days later, and you know we had a big warehouse
and roseland New Jersey and that's where headquarters was. And
I go out. I was going into the warehouse and
you know, going up on the lift truck and say, okay,
what's that box up there? You know, we had good inventory,
but yes, oh those are some common flags. Let's bring
(13:18):
those down. And oh wait a minute, those are some
old printed flags. And you know these are some nylon
you know flags that whatever. It just so, I mean,
we went through everything and there I never forget there
was a We produced some large flags at that same warehouse,
but in the back and when you first walked into
the warehouse, you couldn't see the back, you know, where
(13:41):
they were producing flags. Certainly a week later the shells
are empty and you can get all the way to
the back. So that was that was the busiest time
for us. The question always was, well, how many flags
did you sell? That wasn't really the question was. The
question really was how many flags could we have sold?
I mean people, I have a guy calls I went
(14:03):
to buy twenty thousand flags right now? Well, if I
had twenty thousand, we had a.
Speaker 1 (14:07):
Phone call and the guy said, I want to buy
twenty thousand flags.
Speaker 2 (14:10):
Yep, just out out from the West coast. I want
twenty thousand flags, Nylon flags, broid starstone stripes or anything
that you really had, and we just didn't have anything.
What's really interesting is, and now we were producing flags
every single day, we actually narrowed down our line. We
ended up going with just the nylons so we can
(14:32):
get the maximum production out. We kind of jumped sizes
like we I don't think we were making four by
six as we were making three by fives, five by eight,
and you know, and then jump over a couple of
sizes just again to maximize the large ones here. Yeah,
to get to get people so we can get more
flags out. So I thought it was. I thought it
was a good idea, and I would do it again.
(14:54):
But the ironic thing is that the three by five
nylon again, we were making them every single day. We
were back orders until June thirtieth of two thousand and two.
That's when we actually went plus. So it took us
nine months, nine months to get the others were going out,
(15:14):
but the back orders, you know, you'd see there though
we have one thousand in sock or whatever. It was
actually always a negative until June thirtieth of twenty of
two thousand and two, that's when it actually went.
Speaker 1 (15:25):
So just to take this one step further, so September eleventh, right,
I was reading on your website, you guys were twenty
times the need of what was normal a normal flag run,
you know, twenty times the need.
Speaker 3 (15:39):
What have since nine to eleven?
Speaker 1 (15:42):
What have you guys done, if anything, to kind of
prepare if there is, you know, such another national tragedy
like the nine to eleven did you had?
Speaker 3 (15:54):
Do you have more that are set aside?
Speaker 1 (15:57):
Are you ready? You know, do you prepare for something
like that? Or let the ships fall where they may
and we go through that again? What do you do
if that is to happen again in the United States.
Speaker 2 (16:06):
Well, you know, we we now run three shifts and
we've built our inventory up, and I would think that
we would be more ready now than we were at
nine to eleven. But you know, we would go, we
would blow through the inventory what we have. You know,
(16:27):
probably maybe in two weeks if the demand was the same.
You know, again, our inventory is probably the largest I've
ever seen it. But you know, you can't. You know,
we have we have CFOs that work for us, and
you know they're on us about, hey, you just can't
have too much inventory. So you know what I mean.
We would do our absolute best, but you just you
(16:50):
can't keep you know, I mean, we have millions and
millions of dollars worth of inventory, but you can't take
that same million times five. We wouldn't exist as a company.
So let's just hope it doesn't happen, but if it does,
we'll do our best to try to service everybody.
Speaker 1 (17:10):
So in my ten years of doing this flag initiative
that I started early on, Bob, people started asking me
what what's a good way to dispose of an old,
tattered flag? And so I know that many people have
(17:30):
told me, take it to your local VFW hall, right,
or take it to a local American Legion or the
local boy Scouts. Write a troop, you know, teaches them
proper etiquette how to dispose of a flag. But I
also know that I was contacted early on by a woman,
a matriarch if you will, of a local mortuary. She's
(17:54):
ninety eight now, and she reached out to me when
I first started and said, Charlie, when people come to
you with their old, tattered, used flags and they don't
know what to do with them, you tell them to
bring it over to one of my funeral homes. Because
what we do is when we cremate a veteran, we
put old flags in there. So when that family gets
(18:16):
their loved ones remains back, who's a veteran, there's flag
remnants mixed in.
Speaker 2 (18:22):
Well that's nice.
Speaker 1 (18:23):
So Bob, let me ask you, what do you tell
people when they approach you and ask what do you do?
What do we do with old tattered, used flags. What's
the best answer you could give them.
Speaker 2 (18:36):
Well, obviously it wouldn't be the burn it. But in
most countries, in most places in the country, you can't burn,
and you can't burn nylon or polyester can't burn leaves anymore.
So actually, you know, flag is is a appropriate number
of stars on the blue field with red and white stripes.
We move any element of that and it's no longer
(18:59):
a US flag. So if you remove the field from
the flag, you can actually just you can throw the guard.
You know, you can actually throw the stripes in the
garbage pail. You can throw the stars in the garbage pail.
I wouldn't I would probably wouldn't put them in the
same garbage pail together. But you know, if as long
as you as long as you cut the stars out
(19:19):
of the stripes, you can throw them in the garbage fiel.
I mean, it is the perfect solution. No, but it's
probably pretty much the only solution going forward.
Speaker 1 (19:28):
Okay, See there's and I know last time we spoke
and I'm going to ask you about it, I learned
something new every time.
Speaker 3 (19:34):
I didn't know that.
Speaker 1 (19:35):
And so if you don't mind, tell our listeners, what
what is the flag code?
Speaker 3 (19:44):
What did it used to say?
Speaker 1 (19:45):
And what does the flag code say now about having
a light illuminating an American flag?
Speaker 2 (19:51):
Okay, so the flag code actually says that the flag, Yeah,
the flag code. The flag code is yeah something. In
some ways it is very exact and that's it. And
in money in many ways it's uh, you know, it's
not so exact. And so you you know, you can
look at and say, well, well this is okay, so
(20:13):
so okay. So the flag coat says properly illuminated. What's
properly illuminated? Well okay, so yeah, you and I could
could you know, have the same thought on that, we
could differ. So if you are if you're flying the
flag off a porch of your house and your porch
(20:34):
light is on, is that properly illuminated? I would think so.
If you have a flag pole in front of your
house and the street light is somewhat near it and
it's casting some light onto the flag, is that properly illuminated?
You know, it's up to discussion. I would say so.
(20:56):
But I've seen where I don't know if the flag
coat it's elf has changed, but I've heard many people
say that ambient light is acceptable. So you know, the
porch light is casting that light off, you know, on
the flag said off your porch. Uh this the street
light is uh, you know, casting some light onto the
(21:17):
flagpole and flag in front of your house or build it,
you know, so you try. It's I think it. I
think it's acceptable. I you know, we do sell solo
lights for both in ground flag poles and uh for
ones that come off the porch. So you know, so
if they if they if they want to fly, if
(21:38):
they want to put the solar light on, they can.
Speaker 3 (21:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:41):
And and the way you answered the question was kind
of like it sounds, you know, like a gray area.
Speaker 2 (21:46):
Right.
Speaker 1 (21:46):
I was told previously or read previously, the flag code
said that the American flag had to have its own
dedicated light source. Now we're learning that ambient light right,
indirect light. As long as reasonable amount of light is
put on that flag, that's acceptable. And you know, I've
(22:06):
had people ask me or tell me why I can't
put up a flax I don't have a light for it.
And my response was I'd rather see an American flag
up with no light than no flag at all. It's
my feeling on that, right, and I think most people
would feel that way. Right, if you're a fireman, you're working,
maybe you're on call, and you're unable to take down
(22:27):
that flag at night because of circumstances. I'd rather see
it up all the time than have someone say I'm
not going to fly one period because I have no
way to illuminate it at night. I don't know what
your thought is on that, but I just think to
see more flags up. I think the light at night,
at least in my mind, you get a little bit
(22:49):
of a pass right you're making the effort to put
it up. Maybe you can't afford the light, maybe you
can't find the light, maybe the light's print. Who knows, right,
But I'd rather see more flags up than none at all.
Speaker 2 (23:00):
With the flag purists may not like your answer, my answer,
but I feel the same way. So now I live
in the home now over fifty five development, and for me,
it's not off the portrait's off the garage, so I
have to get a step ladder up to take the
flag down. So now I do have a light near it.
(23:23):
There's also a street light right across the street from me,
so if I wanted to turn off the light and
go into the ambient light thing, I could do that.
And I sell flags. I consider myself extremely patriotic. If
I didn't, if I had to, if I didn't have
the light over the garage and the light across the street.
(23:44):
I probably would feel the same way you did. I
don't know if I would get up on that step
ladder every night when it gets dark and takes that
flag down. You know, it maybe against the cold, but
I personally it's not and it's you know, feeling, it's
you know, this isn't a company statement, this is my
personal statement. I'm with you, Charlie. I think I'd rather
have the flag up there than not the habit. There's
(24:07):
so many there's so many things to the flag coded.
I'm not a flag code experts, but you know there's
some you know, the great big flags that go you know,
you go into the you know, before a football game,
and they covered pretty much the whole field. Well, you're
not supposed to carry a flag horizontally, and that's against
flag etiquette, but people do it. But isn't it a
(24:30):
romantic romantic I'm sorry, romantic. Isn't it a great thing
to the patriotic thing to do?
Speaker 1 (24:36):
And then also they have stopped, I think, have they
stopped allowing American flags to deploy out of helicopters or
airplanes on parachutists.
Speaker 3 (24:47):
I heard there was a little.
Speaker 1 (24:48):
Static about that and the flag coming down touching the ground,
you know, I don't know, so I thought that at
least locally. I know, we have a college football bowl
game here and they've stopped allowing the parachutes the guys
that are jumping out to have a food attached to
them as they come down for fear of it touching
the ground and stuff.
Speaker 2 (25:08):
So right, I don't know what the reason I didn't know.
I mean, I read that Charlie, and I don't know
the reason why they stopped it. But the only thing
I had heard was that parachute just had to stop.
And I just don't know if that was I wasn't
in the military. I probably should have gone, but I
was near in Vietnam. I was, I was in college.
(25:28):
I don't know if that's an army thing, the air
force thing. I don't know.
Speaker 1 (25:36):
So I talked about this with you before, and forgive
me if if you get a little uneasy about it.
Speaker 3 (25:45):
But it's a question that I've been asked.
Speaker 1 (25:48):
And you know, being a police officer for twenty years
supporting local law enforcement, you know, lots of people over
the years recently have really stepped up showing support for
law enforcement, whether that's bor patrol, whether that's their local
police agency. Even dispatchers I know have supporters that that
(26:11):
have generated on a flag, I don't want to say
an American flag, but they.
Speaker 3 (26:16):
Have generated a flag which.
Speaker 1 (26:19):
Looks like an American flag, but they add an additional
stripe or maybe it's a stripe that's included in there
of a different color. Right, the thin red line for firefighters,
if you will, blue lineal for officers, police officers. Out here,
we see a lot of thin green lines for borbitrol agents.
Speaker 3 (26:42):
And we also see out here a.
Speaker 1 (26:44):
Thin gold line for dispatchers, for first responders. Dispatchers, right,
they're show right exactly.
Speaker 2 (26:51):
There's quite a few of them.
Speaker 1 (26:53):
So about two weeks ago, New York Fire Department told
their ladder trucks that they are no longer allowed to
fly thin red flag flags off of their ladder trucks.
There was some big discussion in certain parts of the
(27:14):
country about that. And I want I somewhat know your
answer just from a previous conversation, but tell me what
your thoughts are on the New York Fire Department tell
them their ladder trucks that they are not allowed to
fly thin red flags off their ladder trucks.
Speaker 2 (27:36):
Well, and then is politically neutral. We make flags, and
we make flags where there's a demand for him and
I personally fly a thin blue line flag off the
bottle of my boat. I support flying the thin red line,
(27:56):
the thin blue line. We make a thin blue and
red line that support support the fireman and the police.
But you know, I mean, I guess it upsets some people,
and Charlie, I'm not exactly sure why. I mean, I've
heard people say the thin blue line is a racist flag.
I don't know how they get that. Uh you know,
(28:17):
uh them? So does that mean the EMS flag is
a racist flag? I don't. I don't really quite understand why. Again,
this is just my personal reason that I'm not speaking
for the company. I don't understand the reasoning behind that.
I mean, I know, I know. I was in college
in nineteen sixty nine, That's when I started as a freshman,
(28:40):
and I had a bumper sticker it said something like
next it was like support you're in New Jersey State Police.
Next time you help need help, But you're gonna do
call a hippie, you know, I I I just I
support the police. I mean, God forbid something goes wrong,
who are you going to call? I mean, its a
tough job. It's a tough job for them. It's I
(29:03):
just listen. I just support them. I've never had trouble.
I've never even been in court, so I'm just a
big supporter. So I do fly the thin blue lines you.
Speaker 1 (29:13):
Had mentioned, though, it's not an American flag.
Speaker 3 (29:18):
Correct.
Speaker 1 (29:18):
If it has a blue line or a thin red line,
those are no longer considered truly an American flag.
Speaker 3 (29:24):
Is that correct?
Speaker 2 (29:26):
Right? So? Okay, So the flag code is very specific.
It's thirteen alternating red and white stripes with an appropriate
number of stars on a blue field. Now that could
be the Betsy Ross flag, the circular thirteen stars. It
could be a thirty four star, it could be a
(29:46):
forty eight star, or it could be a fifty star,
as long as the appropriate number of stars on a
blue field with alternating red and white stripes. You this
is this is where some flag purists get a little upset.
You remove any element of that, it's no longer a
(30:06):
US flag. I mean, because the flag code is extremely
specific about that. So if you do change the if
you do change the stripes to orange, I don't know
why I said orange. If it changes the orange, it's
not the US flag. But what you can't do is
you can't take a US flag, you know what, every
number of stars with the alternate red and white stripes,
(30:29):
and you can't put a motorcycle on it. That is
strictly against flag code. Uh, you can't. You can you know,
people can't sign a flag that's against the flag cold everything.
It's kind of cool in the way that, you know,
if you mean bob.
Speaker 1 (30:43):
But so anywhere on the flag, what happens if somebody
some sort of autograph on like I want to call
it the border right where the.
Speaker 4 (30:50):
Where you're the heading are gramits are Yes, you can
sign there, Yes you can, okay, because the heading isn't
you know, it doesn't really the code doesn't say and
code just says talk to me.
Speaker 2 (31:03):
It doesn't talk about the heaving. So my feeling is that, yeah,
sure you could put I mean and we have to
put our name on the head, you know, so I
guess it's name on the heading. Somebody could sign it there.
So again, the code is very very specific. There was
a I got of coal years ago, and I won't
mention from whom. But we were making the flag of
(31:24):
Honor and the flag of Heroes. Now after nine to eleven,
the person produced the designed the flag of Honor and
the flag of eros. The flag of Honor had the
names of all three thousand people who died in nine
to eleven. The flag of Heroes had the first responders
probably called the flag of heroes. But it was a
(31:47):
blue field with fifty stars on a white background, and
the stripes were in the still a white background. One
row had red stripes of names, just the names in red.
The next stripe head the names in blue. So somebody
called me and said, well, wait a minute, that's against
(32:08):
flag etiquette. And I said to him, no, I'm sorry,
it's not. It is. I mean that's basically a white
flag with the blue field with names in it in
red and blue. I mean what, we didn't even have
the stripes on it. I mean the stripes were made
of the names. And he was pretty upset with me,
and then I said, well, tell me if you do
(32:28):
your research. If I'm wrong, you had you called me back,
you had my number, and uh, you know it was
he never called me back. I mean, you could up
for interpretation in my mind. And I am not a
flag expert when it comes to etiquette. No, but you know,
to me, it's it's the code is very specific.
Speaker 3 (32:48):
Bob.
Speaker 1 (32:48):
You had mentioned just before we started this uh interview
that you are going to Southbes Is it next Monday?
Speaker 3 (32:57):
This Monday? Maybe you're going to souther Bees. Maybe?
Speaker 2 (33:01):
I mean, I'm not actually I was thinking of going out.
I don't think I'm gonna go because I I live
a little bit too far from there. So what's going on?
Speaker 1 (33:10):
Yeah, So tell people why you were gonna orench it
and go in to Southerbeast.
Speaker 2 (33:16):
Okay. So Annan has this long history, and I often
say they're a footprint of American history. So in our books,
as a matter of fact, if you go on our website,
you'll see an ann In history book and it tells
about the company going back. You know, all their founders
are pre eighteen twenty, and it tells a story about
(33:38):
Annon and flags through the years, and it mentions that
the a flag covered Lincoln's casket, a flag was on
the regime, our flag was on the moon, and all
this stuff. But anyway, so, there was a museum in Jacksonville,
Florida called the Museum of Southern History, and they received
(34:01):
from the Lewis Applegate family a flag that covered Lincoln's casket. Now,
it's really really interesting in that, first of all, the
flag has our name on it. It says, you know, manufacturer,
it says and in the company as New York City,
(34:24):
and it has this doesn't have the size on it
on the heading on the well. Also on the heading
this Lewis Applegate signed it. Now, Lewis Applegate a company major,
Major General Edward Morgan, who was a close friend of Lincoln's,
(34:46):
and he was on the train from New York through Illinois,
and Applegate was his personal document. And so that flag
apparently was on the train all the way to Illinois
and when they got into Illinois. We assume that we
(35:08):
don't know this for sure, that Morgan gave it to
Lewis Applegate, or Lewis Applegate just took it. I mean,
I think back then you probably wouldn't think, oh, this
is going to have some historical significance, you know. So
it was passed on through the family. Actually, I just
I had the article in front of me. Let's see,
let's read upon conclusion of the funeral procession. Major General
(35:30):
and Center that Morgan received this US flag with thirty
seven stars, which he gave to Applegate. Now it said
thirty seven. At the time it was only thirty four
stars two but three states were I think it's no
we had thirty five stars, but two states were coming in,
so it was becoming normally what would happen if two
states were coming in, They would always put the appropriate
(35:51):
amount of stars on. So I think Nebraska was the
thirty seven states. So the flag was made for Lincoln's
casket with the thirty seven stars. So so Lewis apple
Kate took it. He signed it in the heading, which
seemed to be what people did back then. They would
sign the flag in a just maybe because flags weren't
(36:11):
sold so much as a routine routinely at a retail
level back then. Hey, this is my flag, so I
want to put my name on it. So it was
passed on to Luisa Applegate in eighteen ninety, and then
it went to Martha Worley in nineteen twenty six, Clora
(36:33):
Conway in nineteen forty two, and then it was turned
over to a family their friends in nineteen seventy seven
by the name of Daily and they gave it to
the Museum of Southern History in nineteen ninety six. So
we had that flag at our office and we were
just in total all of it. I mean, we've made
(36:54):
fus tag and I mean this flag. They say we
covered Lincoln's cass and and they've gone to great lengths
to prove it. Flag.
Speaker 1 (37:05):
If people go to your website, if I'm not mistaken,
there's a picture of you with some white gloves on
kind of holding up the flag.
Speaker 2 (37:12):
Correct, Yes, there is you. So we brought you know,
we will have we'll have to wear white clothes because
we don't you know, I mean for the oils that
would you know, stain them in the flag. And uh,
I mean it was absolutely beautifully made flag. Yeah, because
we produced that flag today probably you know, I mean
(37:32):
look as old, but we could produce it exactly the
way it was back then.
Speaker 1 (37:37):
You know. Okay, so I have a thirty seven star.
I guess if someone needed for a museum, say, or
they're going to do some sort of exhibit, but it's
not the flag that covered Lincoln's casting that.
Speaker 2 (37:51):
Yeah, well so that is that's.
Speaker 3 (37:53):
Going to go to auction. Then I know you said we.
Speaker 2 (37:57):
Believe it is. I think they may be at Southerby's
this week, or I think they're supposed to go this week.
And I have a friend by the name of Jim
Farragan who is a vexologist who is a study of flags.
And when the people from the museum came to me,
they said, well, what can you tell us about this flag? Well,
(38:18):
I can't tell you. I can tell you that I
have a friend Jim Farragan, who does is a vexologist
who does the research on flags, and just know, I
mean to me, is most you know, most knowledgeable when
it comes to flags in the US. And he has
spent months basically confirming that this flag was on Lincoln's
(38:38):
casket and they.
Speaker 1 (38:42):
Have to sign some sort of official certificate.
Speaker 2 (38:44):
Yes, yes, yes, So I know he's going to meet
with the people from the museum at at with the
Southern Southby's people.
Speaker 1 (38:56):
Well, I will be, I'm sure like others, I'll be.
It'll be interesting to see if it does where maybe
they don't say who, you know, if anonymous buyer purchased it,
but how much you know, I mean again, it's hard
to put a price tag on things like that, but
it'll be interesting for me to see because that doesn't
come up things like that, I don't feel very often,
(39:17):
so I don't.
Speaker 2 (39:18):
I think it's probably, you know, barring any revolutionary war flag,
it's probably the most valuable flag out there, certainly the
one that mostly probably the most iconic that we've made.
I don't know our flag was on the moon. I
think that's great.
Speaker 1 (39:38):
They're not ask and none of those that's not coming
up for a bid, right, I mean, that's so.
Speaker 2 (39:45):
So what the interesting The interesting thing about it is
the people that own the museum that owns it, they
wanted us to buy it, and and are our pockets
probably just aren't that deep. But I think it would
be the service for people, you know, people in the
(40:08):
United States if we boy, we would keep it under
lock and key, you know, in our office, and who
goes to our office. You know, we don't have to
seeing salespeople calling in our office anymore. And but they're
hoping that someone benefactor would actually buy it and then
donate it to a museum, in a museum or the
American public. Yes, so they so those people can see
(40:30):
it because this is this is this is some flag.
It really is.
Speaker 1 (40:35):
One last question that's going to be a question that
I ask only every time I conclude an interview or
I talk with someone, and Bob, tell me, in your words,
what does the American flag mean to you?
Speaker 2 (40:55):
You know what that I just think it. I think
it just means freedom. I mean, you know, of course
the color is what they mean and everything, but I
just think it means freedom. I always like the story
about when people are in the foreign country and you know,
they get to the United States embassy and they see
the flag there and how it makes them feel. Or
(41:18):
someone's come home from a war and they get off
the transport plane and you know, they see the American
flag at the airport and they kiss the tarmac or
something like that. To me, it just means freedom. I mean, hey,
this in a lot of the countries are free and
they're able to do people are able to do what
they want, and you know, we allow free speech like
(41:38):
a lot of other countries do. I just think it's
that symbol just to me represents freedom, and you know,
and we are we are the country that goes and
helps people in other countries. And I you know, I
think sometimes we're forgotten, that's forgotten. But you know who
always seems to step up first. It's America, you know,
where there's a disaster in another kind. Who's sending people
(42:01):
over there?
Speaker 1 (42:02):
You know we are One last thing just came into
my head. Do you remember how we first met, Bob.
Speaker 2 (42:12):
It was years a couple of quite a few years ago.
Speaker 1 (42:14):
Through an email through Sandy Sandy Vlad Yes, who has
since passed. I think, yes, yes, And we stayed in
touch and you were aware of what I think you
were aware of what I was doing at the time.
And I think other people have also reached out to
you at some point to kind of give your heads
up as to what I'm doing.
Speaker 3 (42:35):
So just just you know, if if.
Speaker 1 (42:38):
You recall that years ago, right, we crossed paths, and
I'm thankful. I'm thankful for you being on today, having
this discussion with me. It's a tough time for some,
not all, to fly an American flag. I think some people.
I never tried to convince someone to fly the flag.
(42:59):
I give reasons why, you know, good reasons why they
should man the American flag. It seems over the last
ten years has truly been under assault, and so I
appreciate men like yourself coming on talking giving a little
bit of perspective background to what the American flag really is,
(43:23):
you know, so you know.
Speaker 2 (43:24):
Charlie, I would agree it seems like it's under attack.
But is that just social media? It just builds it up. Listen,
when I when I was in college in sixty nine,
seventy seventy three, after seventy four, I was on the
five year Plan, you know, I you know, a flags
were being born, burned in because of opposition to the
(43:44):
Vietnam War. I you know, I I often asked this question,
you know, do you do we One of the concerns
about the industry is as people get older or as
people you know, college kids now, are they aware of
the flag? Do they really think of it? I mean,
I was in college. It's during you know, during the
Vietnam War, and I really didn't. I mean I felt
patrio patriotic, but I didn't fly a flag. You know,
(44:08):
in my first house, I wasn't working for an I
didn't fly at flag, but I was patriotic, So I'm
really but you know, I became patriotic, so I more
patriotic and flew a flag. So maybe these young kids
now who are out there, you know, marching on you know,
at Columbia University or Princeton. Maybe eventually, you know, at
age thirty or thirty five, they're gonna say, hey, you
(44:28):
know what, this is a great country. I'm proud to
be here and gonna fly the flag. I just don't know.
I don't know about you, but back when I was
twenty years old, I wasn't necessarily thinking of of flying
a flag. Yet I told myself I was patriotic. So
I'm just hoping that these people, you know, as they
get older, they become patriotic and appreciated. I mean, of
(44:49):
course we always sit there and say, you know, the
greatest generation, and you know, they were probably the most patriotic.
Well maybe maybe not. You know, maybe maybe it was
just as patriotic as anybody else.
Speaker 1 (45:00):
And you're right, you know, we see pocket, we see
bits and pieces of good Americans stepping up to protect
the flag, to respect it. And I'm thinking, briefly, off
the top of my head, some college kids, maybe back
on the East Coast somewhere. It made the news cycles
about them, you know, protecting the American flag from protesters. Yes, yes,
(45:23):
you know, so you have to you have to look closely.
But there are good stories. Good Americans out there that
are protecting and raising the American flag even through all
this turmoil that were fed you know, you know, news wise,
but there are good Americans out there. So Bob, again,
I appreciate it. I look forward to talking to you
(45:44):
in the future. I know this isn't it, but for
our first conversation together, I am more than thankful that
you did this and that you had the time.
Speaker 2 (45:54):
No, I appreciate the opportunity. It's and it's a good story,
really is. Thank you for joining us on this episode
of Flags for the Flagless. This episode was produced by
Charlie Foley, Doug Levy, and Jason wykeout To listen to
(46:15):
Charlie's newest episodes, please download and subscribe through your favorite
podcast service, and if you liked the show enough, leave
a review. Your thoughts would greatly be appreciated.
Speaker 1 (46:26):
Flags for the Flagless United Stories of America is proudly
produced and distributed by the Eight Side Network.
Today, I want to introduce my newest and could be
one of my best friends here I think and dead,
is Bob Cagioni. Bob is the vice president of commercial
Sales for Annin Flagmakers, the oldest and largest flagmaker in
the United States, and Bob has worked for them for
(00:28):
I think it's forty seven, forty eight years, Bob, which
is it going to be?
Speaker 2 (00:32):
This will be my forty eighth year.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
Unbelievable, it is, it really is.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
We have a lot of employees that's been around for
a while.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
That's awesome, and so that shows a commitment to the leadership,
the management style and the company. I'm sure what you
guys are selling in your product, they stand by it.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
So right, all of those, Charlie.
Speaker 3 (00:54):
So let's start with just the basics.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
Tell me, uh a brief history of ann and how
it got started, and then tell me how what have
you done to stay in the forefront of the flag
making business?
Speaker 3 (01:12):
Right? You guys are everywhere I go.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
I'm always looking at flags, whether it's this you know,
home deepo or this Walmart. You know, I'm just looking
and Annon shows up almost everywhere. How do you do it?
But tell us how it started? To get to where
you are now.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
Okay, Actually, it's an interesting story of Annon actually started
in downtown New York City in eighteen twenty as a
ship's channeler, supplying ships that came into the Hudson River.
At the time, I think New York City was one
of the major ports in the US, and so that's
how the business really started. At the same time, they
(01:49):
were also producing flags for the same ships. They came
into the Hudson in eighteen forty seven, they primarily became
a flag company. So in reality, you know, And has
been around for about two hundred and four years, but
as and in the flag manufacturer goes, it's been around
for one hundred and seventy seven years. But what's really interesting, Charlie,
(02:13):
if you used the eighteen twenty date, that would make
Ann and I believe the twentieth oldest company still in
business in the US. And I think that's right after
Brooks Brothers, who is started in eighteen nineteen, and they
are the nineteenth largest. So it's yeah, it's something we're
really really proud of, you know, and you know how
(02:36):
we stayed in business so long. What's the famous saying,
we're not we're not the best because we're the oldest.
We're the oldest because we are the best, you know,
and has always been known for its their quality, reliability,
service and integrity. We offer the most extensive line in
(02:57):
the industry and have great service. I mean, it's it's
a testimony to the employees and management because, like I said,
you know earlier that I've been there forty seven years
as another person there who's been the same time. And
you know, I bet you our average ages employees other
than the factory workers, a noun of the years has
(03:17):
got to be at least twenty five years love it.
So it's just yeah, yeah, people fall in love with
our product.
Speaker 1 (03:23):
I don't know if I've asked you this in a
previous conversation. When are you going to retire? Is there
some is there some benchmark that you're looking at, or
just when the time's right, you're just going to walk away, you.
Speaker 2 (03:35):
Know, Charlie, you know what's really great about this industry.
I mean, we sell small modern popper retailers, and then
we also sell the big chains like Walmart and stuff,
and you know I've done both, and but you know,
my primary job now is a VP of the Independent resellers,
(03:57):
and these people, I mean, they're just absolutely the salt
of the earth. They are the absolute nicest people in
the world. And I've enjoyed them. I know. My kids
have always said, Dan, how can you you know, And
of course when they were living home, how could you,
you know, wake up and want to go to work
and have a smile on your face. Well, you know,
maybe it's just my mental state, but it's also because
(04:18):
the people I was dealing with are just the nicest
people in the world. And so the answer to your
question is when I stop enjoying it, and I you know,
I'm on my computer by seven thirty in the morning,
and you know, I mean sometimes I leave to play
golf at four o'clock or something like that, or but
you know, also help me on the computer at eight
(04:39):
o'clock at night.
Speaker 1 (04:39):
But you've paid your dues too, is how I look
at it. So if you want to cut out off
after forty plus years.
Speaker 3 (04:45):
At the county, okay, you know, I think you should
be able to do that.
Speaker 2 (04:48):
So yeah, no, and actually the president of the company
is very very good at that. You've got something to do,
you do it, don't worry about it. Just get your
job done and do it right. And so he's really
really good at that, and that that goes for all
all the employees. Get your job done, and you know,
he gives you a lot of leeway. So it's it's
been great. So when I stop having fun, then you
(05:08):
hang it out. Yeah, yeah, all.
Speaker 1 (05:10):
Right, let's get into some Let's get into the nuts
and bolts a little bit if you don't mind of
an and sure, easy one. How many American flags do
you think you sell in a given year. I'm not
talking stick flags, I'm not talking custom flags. If you
could break it down to just American you know, flag
(05:34):
pole flags, how many a year?
Speaker 2 (05:37):
Well, we're privately held, so we don't divulge that information.
If you ask me what our sales numbers were, I
couldn't tell you. I don't. I couldn't tell you because
we're privately help. The entire flag industry is privately held,
and none of that information is out there. We try
to guess to see, you know what our competition sales are,
and well we think there this million. I can I
(05:57):
can't tell you we make more than a million a year, though.
Speaker 1 (06:00):
So could what's your guesstimate for your competition. Then what
do you think your competition is putting out a year?
Speaker 2 (06:08):
Well, I don't know how many in the way of flags,
but we think as manufacturers the industry may be about
two hundred and twenty five million dollars annually.
Speaker 1 (06:19):
All right, and so I don't know then, based on
what you had just mentioned, though, I like putting up
both your tough techs American flags, right, the polyester and
then you have a nile nile glow if I'm saying
that right, the nylons, which I prefer only because you know,
(06:41):
as you know, with the nylon man, as soon as
the wind hits it, they're up, they're flowing, they're bright. Now,
they don't last as long as a polyester. But I
like putting up those nylon flags. Out of the two,
which would you say sells more the polyester ones or
the nylon nile go.
Speaker 2 (07:00):
Probably that's a great question. Okay, So the nylon sells
more in the smaller sizes you know, three by five,
four by six, five by eight and even six by
ten you get eight by twelves and larger. The polyester
sells more. Why it's more expensive, it's more durable. But
(07:21):
you are correct, the nylon flies in the lightest breeze
and the polyester needs a little heavier breeze to lift
it up. But therein is the answer why if nylon
flag doesn't last quite as long as the polyester because
it's not up there flapping around in the breeze and
where you know, the polyester. Sure it takes a little
bit more miles per hour of wind to lift it up,
(07:44):
but you know, generally, I mean, it just won't be
flapping around as much as the nylon does. But so really,
the nylon on the small sizes up to six by
ten sell better. The polyester is better seller on eight
by twelves and larger. You know, you often get asked,
you know, of course we're wholesale only strictly wholesale, but
we'll get asked, you know, by consumers or something, well
(08:06):
what flag should I fly? Well, the question do you
want to flag flying all the time or do you
just want something up there that says, hey, I want
to flag on the flag pole. Yeah, that's the answer.
Speaker 1 (08:17):
That's a tough you know, it's a tough question. And
I'm thinking of someone said, well, what kind of you know,
which of these two flags would you recommend, like, just
like what you said, is it going to be up
twenty four to seven? Are you going to take it down?
Speaker 3 (08:31):
You know?
Speaker 1 (08:33):
Do you want to fly constantly in the wind or
you know, So it just depends on kind of the
environment that that flag is going to be placed in
will determine I feel, which of the two I would suggest.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
So I agree with you one hundred percent. I listened.
I used to have a flag when I had my
home before I moved into a town home. I had
a twenty foot pole in front of my house and
I would just fly a nylon And then I moved,
you know, but then when I moved to town home,
I couldn't have a ground pole, so I flew off
(09:05):
the porch and it was a nylon flag, you know,
to me, the only flag you really needed. Small sizes
in nylon. But people like the polyester because it is durable,
kind of has the feel of a traditional cotton flag,
you know, if you get the flag views, they kind
of want the cotton flag, you know, but the nylon
(09:25):
is really probably my fabric of choice. That's my personal opinion.
Speaker 1 (09:30):
Next question for you, with the Olympics coming up this July,
right in a few months. Do you anticipate or are
do you already see a need or an uptick in
sales that you can attribute possibly to the Olympics coming up.
Speaker 2 (09:45):
The Olympics never had a major impact on sales. That
being said, if we were doing business with the Olympic
Committee or their decorators, and we did that during the
games and the last time I think was Salt Lake City,
(10:05):
yeah we would see we would see an uptick, but
that's you know, that's for usage at the stadiums and stuff.
Normally it doesn't you know, you know, it may may
go up by half a point or something like that,
it's just not a significant uptickt Now the presidential elections
are a little bit different, and there you can see
(10:27):
an uptick in flags, especially since twenty sixteen when President
Trump ran, well when Trump ran for president, you know,
there was an uptick then because the people are flat waivers.
Not to say the Democrats aren't, but the Republicans seem
(10:48):
to fire up their base more and you know, so
you know, there's so in twenty sixteen we saw an uptick.
Twenty and twenty we did, and we will see an
up take a little later in this year as we
get closer to the election.
Speaker 1 (11:04):
Okay, and that well, let me go with this one.
And I think I know the answer already. But the
largest run of flags that you have had to manufacture
in the history of annen World War two presidential election.
Is there a particular time or event and what caused
(11:27):
or what what made you guys have to manufacture so
many flags?
Speaker 2 (11:31):
You know, flags are flags are pretty much consistent in
their sales. But when you have an event, I mean,
I don't you know, I've been around a long time,
and I know our competition. No one ever has seemed
to create a sale for a US flag where flags
really took off other than a war event. So I
(11:52):
was I was at the tail end of you know,
the two hundredth anniversary actually started in August, so that
was pretty much over. But I remember Desert Storm. Uh,
you know, we attacked Iraq and went into Iraq and
sales took off. And uh, as soon as the war
(12:13):
was declared over, sales went right down. Interesting, Yeah, I
mean they went they were as quickly as they went up,
they went back to normal. Now nine to eleven was
a little bit different. So now we were attacked on
our you know, in our home homeland, and sales spiked.
I mean, never forget. I was on a plane somewhere
(12:35):
and someone said to me, oh, what do you do?
What do you produce? And I kind of I gave
an answer, well, what do you think is the most
sought after product right now? And she said flags? And
I said and she and I said, that's right. So
the interesting story was, okay, so here it is nine
to eleven. Our shells were empty, uh maybe five six
(12:58):
days later, and you know we had a big warehouse
and roseland New Jersey and that's where headquarters was. And
I go out. I was going into the warehouse and
you know, going up on the lift truck and say, okay,
what's that box up there? You know, we had good inventory,
but yes, oh those are some common flags. Let's bring
(13:18):
those down. And oh wait a minute, those are some
old printed flags. And you know these are some nylon
you know flags that whatever. It just so, I mean,
we went through everything and there I never forget there
was a We produced some large flags at that same warehouse,
but in the back and when you first walked into
the warehouse, you couldn't see the back, you know, where
(13:41):
they were producing flags. Certainly a week later the shells
are empty and you can get all the way to
the back. So that was that was the busiest time
for us. The question always was, well, how many flags
did you sell? That wasn't really the question was. The
question really was how many flags could we have sold?
I mean people, I have a guy calls I went
(14:03):
to buy twenty thousand flags right now? Well, if I
had twenty thousand, we had a.
Speaker 1 (14:07):
Phone call and the guy said, I want to buy
twenty thousand flags.
Speaker 2 (14:10):
Yep, just out out from the West coast. I want
twenty thousand flags, Nylon flags, broid starstone stripes or anything
that you really had, and we just didn't have anything.
What's really interesting is, and now we were producing flags
every single day, we actually narrowed down our line. We
ended up going with just the nylons so we can
(14:32):
get the maximum production out. We kind of jumped sizes
like we I don't think we were making four by
six as we were making three by fives, five by eight,
and you know, and then jump over a couple of
sizes just again to maximize the large ones here. Yeah,
to get to get people so we can get more
flags out. So I thought it was. I thought it
was a good idea, and I would do it again.
(14:54):
But the ironic thing is that the three by five
nylon again, we were making them every single day. We
were back orders until June thirtieth of two thousand and two.
That's when we actually went plus. So it took us
nine months, nine months to get the others were going out,
(15:14):
but the back orders, you know, you'd see there though
we have one thousand in sock or whatever. It was
actually always a negative until June thirtieth of twenty of
two thousand and two, that's when it actually went.
Speaker 1 (15:25):
So just to take this one step further, so September eleventh, right,
I was reading on your website, you guys were twenty
times the need of what was normal a normal flag run,
you know, twenty times the need.
Speaker 3 (15:39):
What have since nine to eleven?
Speaker 1 (15:42):
What have you guys done, if anything, to kind of
prepare if there is, you know, such another national tragedy
like the nine to eleven did you had?
Speaker 3 (15:54):
Do you have more that are set aside?
Speaker 1 (15:57):
Are you ready? You know, do you prepare for something
like that? Or let the ships fall where they may
and we go through that again? What do you do
if that is to happen again in the United States.
Speaker 2 (16:06):
Well, you know, we we now run three shifts and
we've built our inventory up, and I would think that
we would be more ready now than we were at
nine to eleven. But you know, we would go, we
would blow through the inventory what we have. You know,
(16:27):
probably maybe in two weeks if the demand was the same.
You know, again, our inventory is probably the largest I've
ever seen it. But you know, you can't. You know,
we have we have CFOs that work for us, and
you know they're on us about, hey, you just can't
have too much inventory. So you know what I mean.
We would do our absolute best, but you just you
(16:50):
can't keep you know, I mean, we have millions and
millions of dollars worth of inventory, but you can't take
that same million times five. We wouldn't exist as a company.
So let's just hope it doesn't happen, but if it does,
we'll do our best to try to service everybody.
Speaker 1 (17:10):
So in my ten years of doing this flag initiative
that I started early on, Bob, people started asking me
what what's a good way to dispose of an old,
tattered flag? And so I know that many people have
(17:30):
told me, take it to your local VFW hall, right,
or take it to a local American Legion or the
local boy Scouts. Write a troop, you know, teaches them
proper etiquette how to dispose of a flag. But I
also know that I was contacted early on by a woman,
a matriarch if you will, of a local mortuary. She's
(17:54):
ninety eight now, and she reached out to me when
I first started and said, Charlie, when people come to
you with their old, tattered, used flags and they don't
know what to do with them, you tell them to
bring it over to one of my funeral homes. Because
what we do is when we cremate a veteran, we
put old flags in there. So when that family gets
(18:16):
their loved ones remains back, who's a veteran, there's flag
remnants mixed in.
Speaker 2 (18:22):
Well that's nice.
Speaker 1 (18:23):
So Bob, let me ask you, what do you tell
people when they approach you and ask what do you do?
What do we do with old tattered, used flags. What's
the best answer you could give them.
Speaker 2 (18:36):
Well, obviously it wouldn't be the burn it. But in
most countries, in most places in the country, you can't burn,
and you can't burn nylon or polyester can't burn leaves anymore.
So actually, you know, flag is is a appropriate number
of stars on the blue field with red and white stripes.
We move any element of that and it's no longer
(18:59):
a US flag. So if you remove the field from
the flag, you can actually just you can throw the guard.
You know, you can actually throw the stripes in the
garbage pail. You can throw the stars in the garbage pail.
I wouldn't I would probably wouldn't put them in the
same garbage pail together. But you know, if as long
as you as long as you cut the stars out
(19:19):
of the stripes, you can throw them in the garbage fiel.
I mean, it is the perfect solution. No, but it's
probably pretty much the only solution going forward.
Speaker 1 (19:28):
Okay, See there's and I know last time we spoke
and I'm going to ask you about it, I learned
something new every time.
Speaker 3 (19:34):
I didn't know that.
Speaker 1 (19:35):
And so if you don't mind, tell our listeners, what
what is the flag code?
Speaker 3 (19:44):
What did it used to say?
Speaker 1 (19:45):
And what does the flag code say now about having
a light illuminating an American flag?
Speaker 2 (19:51):
Okay, so the flag code actually says that the flag, Yeah,
the flag code. The flag code is yeah something. In
some ways it is very exact and that's it. And
in money in many ways it's uh, you know, it's
not so exact. And so you you know, you can
look at and say, well, well this is okay, so
(20:13):
so okay. So the flag coat says properly illuminated. What's
properly illuminated? Well okay, so yeah, you and I could
could you know, have the same thought on that, we
could differ. So if you are if you're flying the
flag off a porch of your house and your porch
(20:34):
light is on, is that properly illuminated? I would think so.
If you have a flag pole in front of your
house and the street light is somewhat near it and
it's casting some light onto the flag, is that properly illuminated?
You know, it's up to discussion. I would say so.
(20:56):
But I've seen where I don't know if the flag
coat it's elf has changed, but I've heard many people
say that ambient light is acceptable. So you know, the
porch light is casting that light off, you know, on
the flag said off your porch. Uh this the street
light is uh, you know, casting some light onto the
(21:17):
flagpole and flag in front of your house or build it,
you know, so you try. It's I think it. I
think it's acceptable. I you know, we do sell solo
lights for both in ground flag poles and uh for
ones that come off the porch. So you know, so
if they if they if they want to fly, if
(21:38):
they want to put the solar light on, they can.
Speaker 3 (21:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:41):
And and the way you answered the question was kind
of like it sounds, you know, like a gray area.
Speaker 2 (21:46):
Right.
Speaker 1 (21:46):
I was told previously or read previously, the flag code
said that the American flag had to have its own
dedicated light source. Now we're learning that ambient light right,
indirect light. As long as reasonable amount of light is
put on that flag, that's acceptable. And you know, I've
(22:06):
had people ask me or tell me why I can't
put up a flax I don't have a light for it.
And my response was I'd rather see an American flag
up with no light than no flag at all. It's
my feeling on that, right, and I think most people
would feel that way. Right, if you're a fireman, you're working,
maybe you're on call, and you're unable to take down
(22:27):
that flag at night because of circumstances. I'd rather see
it up all the time than have someone say I'm
not going to fly one period because I have no
way to illuminate it at night. I don't know what
your thought is on that, but I just think to
see more flags up. I think the light at night,
at least in my mind, you get a little bit
(22:49):
of a pass right you're making the effort to put
it up. Maybe you can't afford the light, maybe you
can't find the light, maybe the light's print. Who knows, right,
But I'd rather see more flags up than none at all.
Speaker 2 (23:00):
With the flag purists may not like your answer, my answer,
but I feel the same way. So now I live
in the home now over fifty five development, and for me,
it's not off the portrait's off the garage, so I
have to get a step ladder up to take the
flag down. So now I do have a light near it.
(23:23):
There's also a street light right across the street from me,
so if I wanted to turn off the light and
go into the ambient light thing, I could do that.
And I sell flags. I consider myself extremely patriotic. If
I didn't, if I had to, if I didn't have
the light over the garage and the light across the street.
(23:44):
I probably would feel the same way you did. I
don't know if I would get up on that step
ladder every night when it gets dark and takes that
flag down. You know, it maybe against the cold, but
I personally it's not and it's you know, feeling, it's
you know, this isn't a company statement, this is my
personal statement. I'm with you, Charlie. I think I'd rather
have the flag up there than not the habit. There's
(24:07):
so many there's so many things to the flag coded.
I'm not a flag code experts, but you know there's
some you know, the great big flags that go you know,
you go into the you know, before a football game,
and they covered pretty much the whole field. Well, you're
not supposed to carry a flag horizontally, and that's against
flag etiquette, but people do it. But isn't it a
(24:30):
romantic romantic I'm sorry, romantic. Isn't it a great thing
to the patriotic thing to do?
Speaker 1 (24:36):
And then also they have stopped, I think, have they
stopped allowing American flags to deploy out of helicopters or
airplanes on parachutists.
Speaker 3 (24:47):
I heard there was a little.
Speaker 1 (24:48):
Static about that and the flag coming down touching the ground,
you know, I don't know, so I thought that at
least locally. I know, we have a college football bowl
game here and they've stopped allowing the parachutes the guys
that are jumping out to have a food attached to
them as they come down for fear of it touching
the ground and stuff.
Speaker 2 (25:08):
So right, I don't know what the reason I didn't know.
I mean, I read that Charlie, and I don't know
the reason why they stopped it. But the only thing
I had heard was that parachute just had to stop.
And I just don't know if that was I wasn't
in the military. I probably should have gone, but I
was near in Vietnam. I was, I was in college.
(25:28):
I don't know if that's an army thing, the air
force thing. I don't know.
Speaker 1 (25:36):
So I talked about this with you before, and forgive
me if if you get a little uneasy about it.
Speaker 3 (25:45):
But it's a question that I've been asked.
Speaker 1 (25:48):
And you know, being a police officer for twenty years
supporting local law enforcement, you know, lots of people over
the years recently have really stepped up showing support for
law enforcement, whether that's bor patrol, whether that's their local
police agency. Even dispatchers I know have supporters that that
(26:11):
have generated on a flag, I don't want to say
an American flag, but they.
Speaker 3 (26:16):
Have generated a flag which.
Speaker 1 (26:19):
Looks like an American flag, but they add an additional
stripe or maybe it's a stripe that's included in there
of a different color. Right, the thin red line for firefighters,
if you will, blue lineal for officers, police officers. Out here,
we see a lot of thin green lines for borbitrol agents.
Speaker 3 (26:42):
And we also see out here a.
Speaker 1 (26:44):
Thin gold line for dispatchers, for first responders. Dispatchers, right,
they're show right exactly.
Speaker 2 (26:51):
There's quite a few of them.
Speaker 1 (26:53):
So about two weeks ago, New York Fire Department told
their ladder trucks that they are no longer allowed to
fly thin red flag flags off of their ladder trucks.
There was some big discussion in certain parts of the
(27:14):
country about that. And I want I somewhat know your
answer just from a previous conversation, but tell me what
your thoughts are on the New York Fire Department tell
them their ladder trucks that they are not allowed to
fly thin red flags off their ladder trucks.
Speaker 2 (27:36):
Well, and then is politically neutral. We make flags, and
we make flags where there's a demand for him and
I personally fly a thin blue line flag off the
bottle of my boat. I support flying the thin red line,
(27:56):
the thin blue line. We make a thin blue and
red line that support support the fireman and the police.
But you know, I mean, I guess it upsets some people,
and Charlie, I'm not exactly sure why. I mean, I've
heard people say the thin blue line is a racist flag.
I don't know how they get that. Uh you know,
(28:17):
uh them? So does that mean the EMS flag is
a racist flag? I don't. I don't really quite understand why. Again,
this is just my personal reason that I'm not speaking
for the company. I don't understand the reasoning behind that.
I mean, I know, I know. I was in college
in nineteen sixty nine, That's when I started as a freshman,
(28:40):
and I had a bumper sticker it said something like
next it was like support you're in New Jersey State Police.
Next time you help need help, But you're gonna do
call a hippie, you know, I I I just I
support the police. I mean, God forbid something goes wrong,
who are you going to call? I mean, its a
tough job. It's a tough job for them. It's I
(29:03):
just listen. I just support them. I've never had trouble.
I've never even been in court, so I'm just a
big supporter. So I do fly the thin blue lines you.
Speaker 1 (29:13):
Had mentioned, though, it's not an American flag.
Speaker 3 (29:18):
Correct.
Speaker 1 (29:18):
If it has a blue line or a thin red line,
those are no longer considered truly an American flag.
Speaker 3 (29:24):
Is that correct?
Speaker 2 (29:26):
Right? So? Okay, So the flag code is very specific.
It's thirteen alternating red and white stripes with an appropriate
number of stars on a blue field. Now that could
be the Betsy Ross flag, the circular thirteen stars. It
could be a thirty four star, it could be a
(29:46):
forty eight star, or it could be a fifty star,
as long as the appropriate number of stars on a
blue field with alternating red and white stripes. You this
is this is where some flag purists get a little upset.
You remove any element of that, it's no longer a
(30:06):
US flag. I mean, because the flag code is extremely
specific about that. So if you do change the if
you do change the stripes to orange, I don't know
why I said orange. If it changes the orange, it's
not the US flag. But what you can't do is
you can't take a US flag, you know what, every
number of stars with the alternate red and white stripes,
(30:29):
and you can't put a motorcycle on it. That is
strictly against flag code. Uh, you can't. You can you know,
people can't sign a flag that's against the flag cold everything.
It's kind of cool in the way that, you know,
if you mean bob.
Speaker 1 (30:43):
But so anywhere on the flag, what happens if somebody
some sort of autograph on like I want to call
it the border right where the.
Speaker 4 (30:50):
Where you're the heading are gramits are Yes, you can
sign there, Yes you can, okay, because the heading isn't
you know, it doesn't really the code doesn't say and
code just says talk to me.
Speaker 2 (31:03):
It doesn't talk about the heaving. So my feeling is that, yeah,
sure you could put I mean and we have to
put our name on the head, you know, so I
guess it's name on the heading. Somebody could sign it there.
So again, the code is very very specific. There was
a I got of coal years ago, and I won't
mention from whom. But we were making the flag of
(31:24):
Honor and the flag of Heroes. Now after nine to eleven,
the person produced the designed the flag of Honor and
the flag of eros. The flag of Honor had the
names of all three thousand people who died in nine
to eleven. The flag of Heroes had the first responders
probably called the flag of heroes. But it was a
(31:47):
blue field with fifty stars on a white background, and
the stripes were in the still a white background. One
row had red stripes of names, just the names in red.
The next stripe head the names in blue. So somebody
called me and said, well, wait a minute, that's against
(32:08):
flag etiquette. And I said to him, no, I'm sorry,
it's not. It is. I mean that's basically a white
flag with the blue field with names in it in
red and blue. I mean what, we didn't even have
the stripes on it. I mean the stripes were made
of the names. And he was pretty upset with me,
and then I said, well, tell me if you do
(32:28):
your research. If I'm wrong, you had you called me back,
you had my number, and uh, you know it was
he never called me back. I mean, you could up
for interpretation in my mind. And I am not a
flag expert when it comes to etiquette. No, but you know,
to me, it's it's the code is very specific.
Speaker 3 (32:48):
Bob.
Speaker 1 (32:48):
You had mentioned just before we started this uh interview
that you are going to Southbes Is it next Monday?
Speaker 3 (32:57):
This Monday? Maybe you're going to souther Bees. Maybe?
Speaker 2 (33:01):
I mean, I'm not actually I was thinking of going out.
I don't think I'm gonna go because I I live
a little bit too far from there. So what's going on?
Speaker 1 (33:10):
Yeah, So tell people why you were gonna orench it
and go in to Southerbeast.
Speaker 2 (33:16):
Okay. So Annan has this long history, and I often
say they're a footprint of American history. So in our books,
as a matter of fact, if you go on our website,
you'll see an ann In history book and it tells
about the company going back. You know, all their founders
are pre eighteen twenty, and it tells a story about
(33:38):
Annon and flags through the years, and it mentions that
the a flag covered Lincoln's casket, a flag was on
the regime, our flag was on the moon, and all
this stuff. But anyway, so, there was a museum in Jacksonville,
Florida called the Museum of Southern History, and they received
(34:01):
from the Lewis Applegate family a flag that covered Lincoln's casket. Now,
it's really really interesting in that, first of all, the
flag has our name on it. It says, you know, manufacturer,
it says and in the company as New York City,
(34:24):
and it has this doesn't have the size on it
on the heading on the well. Also on the heading
this Lewis Applegate signed it. Now, Lewis Applegate a company major,
Major General Edward Morgan, who was a close friend of Lincoln's,
(34:46):
and he was on the train from New York through Illinois,
and Applegate was his personal document. And so that flag
apparently was on the train all the way to Illinois
and when they got into Illinois. We assume that we
(35:08):
don't know this for sure, that Morgan gave it to
Lewis Applegate, or Lewis Applegate just took it. I mean,
I think back then you probably wouldn't think, oh, this
is going to have some historical significance, you know. So
it was passed on through the family. Actually, I just
I had the article in front of me. Let's see,
let's read upon conclusion of the funeral procession. Major General
(35:30):
and Center that Morgan received this US flag with thirty
seven stars, which he gave to Applegate. Now it said
thirty seven. At the time it was only thirty four
stars two but three states were I think it's no
we had thirty five stars, but two states were coming in,
so it was becoming normally what would happen if two
states were coming in, They would always put the appropriate
(35:51):
amount of stars on. So I think Nebraska was the
thirty seven states. So the flag was made for Lincoln's
casket with the thirty seven stars. So so Lewis apple
Kate took it. He signed it in the heading, which
seemed to be what people did back then. They would
sign the flag in a just maybe because flags weren't
(36:11):
sold so much as a routine routinely at a retail
level back then. Hey, this is my flag, so I
want to put my name on it. So it was
passed on to Luisa Applegate in eighteen ninety, and then
it went to Martha Worley in nineteen twenty six, Clora
(36:33):
Conway in nineteen forty two, and then it was turned
over to a family their friends in nineteen seventy seven
by the name of Daily and they gave it to
the Museum of Southern History in nineteen ninety six. So
we had that flag at our office and we were
just in total all of it. I mean, we've made
(36:54):
fus tag and I mean this flag. They say we
covered Lincoln's cass and and they've gone to great lengths
to prove it. Flag.
Speaker 1 (37:05):
If people go to your website, if I'm not mistaken,
there's a picture of you with some white gloves on
kind of holding up the flag.
Speaker 2 (37:12):
Correct, Yes, there is you. So we brought you know,
we will have we'll have to wear white clothes because
we don't you know, I mean for the oils that
would you know, stain them in the flag. And uh,
I mean it was absolutely beautifully made flag. Yeah, because
we produced that flag today probably you know, I mean
(37:32):
look as old, but we could produce it exactly the
way it was back then.
Speaker 1 (37:37):
You know. Okay, so I have a thirty seven star.
I guess if someone needed for a museum, say, or
they're going to do some sort of exhibit, but it's
not the flag that covered Lincoln's casting that.
Speaker 2 (37:51):
Yeah, well so that is that's.
Speaker 3 (37:53):
Going to go to auction. Then I know you said we.
Speaker 2 (37:57):
Believe it is. I think they may be at Southerby's
this week, or I think they're supposed to go this week.
And I have a friend by the name of Jim
Farragan who is a vexologist who is a study of flags.
And when the people from the museum came to me,
they said, well, what can you tell us about this flag? Well,
(38:18):
I can't tell you. I can tell you that I
have a friend Jim Farragan, who does is a vexologist
who does the research on flags, and just know, I
mean to me, is most you know, most knowledgeable when
it comes to flags in the US. And he has
spent months basically confirming that this flag was on Lincoln's
(38:38):
casket and they.
Speaker 1 (38:42):
Have to sign some sort of official certificate.
Speaker 2 (38:44):
Yes, yes, yes, So I know he's going to meet
with the people from the museum at at with the
Southern Southby's people.
Speaker 1 (38:56):
Well, I will be, I'm sure like others, I'll be.
It'll be interesting to see if it does where maybe
they don't say who, you know, if anonymous buyer purchased it,
but how much you know, I mean again, it's hard
to put a price tag on things like that, but
it'll be interesting for me to see because that doesn't
come up things like that, I don't feel very often,
(39:17):
so I don't.
Speaker 2 (39:18):
I think it's probably, you know, barring any revolutionary war flag,
it's probably the most valuable flag out there, certainly the
one that mostly probably the most iconic that we've made.
I don't know our flag was on the moon. I
think that's great.
Speaker 1 (39:38):
They're not ask and none of those that's not coming
up for a bid, right, I mean, that's so.
Speaker 2 (39:45):
So what the interesting The interesting thing about it is
the people that own the museum that owns it, they
wanted us to buy it, and and are our pockets
probably just aren't that deep. But I think it would
be the service for people, you know, people in the
(40:08):
United States if we boy, we would keep it under
lock and key, you know, in our office, and who
goes to our office. You know, we don't have to
seeing salespeople calling in our office anymore. And but they're
hoping that someone benefactor would actually buy it and then
donate it to a museum, in a museum or the
American public. Yes, so they so those people can see
(40:30):
it because this is this is this is some flag.
It really is.
Speaker 1 (40:35):
One last question that's going to be a question that
I ask only every time I conclude an interview or
I talk with someone, and Bob, tell me, in your words,
what does the American flag mean to you?
Speaker 2 (40:55):
You know what that I just think it. I think
it just means freedom. I mean, you know, of course
the color is what they mean and everything, but I
just think it means freedom. I always like the story
about when people are in the foreign country and you know,
they get to the United States embassy and they see
the flag there and how it makes them feel. Or
(41:18):
someone's come home from a war and they get off
the transport plane and you know, they see the American
flag at the airport and they kiss the tarmac or
something like that. To me, it just means freedom. I mean, hey,
this in a lot of the countries are free and
they're able to do people are able to do what
they want, and you know, we allow free speech like
(41:38):
a lot of other countries do. I just think it's
that symbol just to me represents freedom, and you know,
and we are we are the country that goes and
helps people in other countries. And I you know, I
think sometimes we're forgotten, that's forgotten. But you know who
always seems to step up first. It's America, you know,
where there's a disaster in another kind. Who's sending people
(42:01):
over there?
Speaker 1 (42:02):
You know we are One last thing just came into
my head. Do you remember how we first met, Bob.
Speaker 2 (42:12):
It was years a couple of quite a few years ago.
Speaker 1 (42:14):
Through an email through Sandy Sandy Vlad Yes, who has
since passed. I think, yes, yes, And we stayed in
touch and you were aware of what I think you
were aware of what I was doing at the time.
And I think other people have also reached out to
you at some point to kind of give your heads
up as to what I'm doing.
Speaker 3 (42:35):
So just just you know, if if.
Speaker 1 (42:38):
You recall that years ago, right, we crossed paths, and
I'm thankful. I'm thankful for you being on today, having
this discussion with me. It's a tough time for some,
not all, to fly an American flag. I think some people.
I never tried to convince someone to fly the flag.
(42:59):
I give reasons why, you know, good reasons why they
should man the American flag. It seems over the last
ten years has truly been under assault, and so I
appreciate men like yourself coming on talking giving a little
bit of perspective background to what the American flag really is,
(43:23):
you know, so you know.
Speaker 2 (43:24):
Charlie, I would agree it seems like it's under attack.
But is that just social media? It just builds it up. Listen,
when I when I was in college in sixty nine,
seventy seventy three, after seventy four, I was on the
five year Plan, you know, I you know, a flags
were being born, burned in because of opposition to the
(43:44):
Vietnam War. I you know, I I often asked this question,
you know, do you do we One of the concerns
about the industry is as people get older or as
people you know, college kids now, are they aware of
the flag? Do they really think of it? I mean,
I was in college. It's during you know, during the
Vietnam War, and I really didn't. I mean I felt
patrio patriotic, but I didn't fly a flag. You know,
(44:08):
in my first house, I wasn't working for an I
didn't fly at flag, but I was patriotic, So I'm
really but you know, I became patriotic, so I more
patriotic and flew a flag. So maybe these young kids
now who are out there, you know, marching on you know,
at Columbia University or Princeton. Maybe eventually, you know, at
age thirty or thirty five, they're gonna say, hey, you
(44:28):
know what, this is a great country. I'm proud to
be here and gonna fly the flag. I just don't know.
I don't know about you, but back when I was
twenty years old, I wasn't necessarily thinking of of flying
a flag. Yet I told myself I was patriotic. So
I'm just hoping that these people, you know, as they
get older, they become patriotic and appreciated. I mean, of
(44:49):
course we always sit there and say, you know, the
greatest generation, and you know, they were probably the most patriotic.
Well maybe maybe not. You know, maybe maybe it was
just as patriotic as anybody else.
Speaker 1 (45:00):
And you're right, you know, we see pocket, we see
bits and pieces of good Americans stepping up to protect
the flag, to respect it. And I'm thinking, briefly, off
the top of my head, some college kids, maybe back
on the East Coast somewhere. It made the news cycles
about them, you know, protecting the American flag from protesters. Yes, yes,
(45:23):
you know, so you have to you have to look closely.
But there are good stories. Good Americans out there that
are protecting and raising the American flag even through all
this turmoil that were fed you know, you know, news wise,
but there are good Americans out there. So Bob, again,
I appreciate it. I look forward to talking to you
(45:44):
in the future. I know this isn't it, but for
our first conversation together, I am more than thankful that
you did this and that you had the time.
Speaker 2 (45:54):
No, I appreciate the opportunity. It's and it's a good story,
really is. Thank you for joining us on this episode
of Flags for the Flagless. This episode was produced by
Charlie Foley, Doug Levy, and Jason wykeout To listen to
(46:15):
Charlie's newest episodes, please download and subscribe through your favorite
podcast service, and if you liked the show enough, leave
a review. Your thoughts would greatly be appreciated.
Speaker 1 (46:26):
Flags for the Flagless United Stories of America is proudly
produced and distributed by the Eight Side Network.
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