August 8, 2024 • 30 mins
The chase begins.
Just moments after the explosion at the Birmingham clinic, a college student spots a suspicious man walking away from the scene of the crime in what appears to be a disguise. With the help of another bystander, they manage to get a license plate. Now the authorities have a tangible lead to pursue.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
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Speaker 2 (00:17):
You're listening to Flashpoint, a production of tenderfoot TV and
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podcast are solely those of the individuals participating in the podcast.
This podcast also contains subject matter which may not be
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Speaker 3 (00:41):
Oh this is really important. Another explosion downtown. Yeah, I
see a guy walking from that direction and he had
a wig and it was like, what was that explosion?
And you know, I walked outside him.
Speaker 4 (00:56):
What kind of thing?
Speaker 3 (00:57):
And this guy he was short with here a long week?
What color the wig was like?
Speaker 5 (01:05):
Brown color?
Speaker 1 (01:08):
This is from a transcript of the nine one one
call made by Jermaine Hughes, a UAB law student, just
moments after a huge explosion in a Birmingham abortion clinic
shook the entire downtown area on January twenty ninth, nineteen
ninety eight. The same explosion that killed a police officer,
Robert Sanderson, and critically injured a nurse Emily Lyons. Hughes
(01:31):
made the call from a phone and a McDonald's near
the clinic.
Speaker 4 (01:34):
Was he what or black?
Speaker 3 (01:36):
He's he's what guy?
Speaker 1 (01:39):
What did he have all?
Speaker 5 (01:40):
Sagan?
Speaker 6 (01:41):
What did he have all?
Speaker 3 (01:44):
I was following him in a burst. He had on
flannel or something. I'm not exactly sure.
Speaker 1 (01:51):
This call went on for a while, with the nine
one one operator and Hughes talking past each other. At
one point, the operator even scolded him, you can't even
what he had all met Mabe, you.
Speaker 6 (02:02):
Cannot remember a clothing description.
Speaker 3 (02:05):
No, I don't remember, Coles kind of exasperated right now.
Speaker 6 (02:10):
Hughes's frustration was building.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
At one point, he lost the connection and called back,
still trying to convince someone to believe him, when suddenly
he saw a man walking down twentieth Street who looked familiar.
Speaker 3 (02:22):
I got him.
Speaker 4 (02:23):
Where is he?
Speaker 3 (02:24):
I got him? I think this is him.
Speaker 6 (02:25):
Is he on foot?
Speaker 3 (02:27):
Yes, he's on foot, Yes, blood glasses on. He's walking
into the woods toward Vulcan.
Speaker 1 (02:33):
It's safe to say most of the customers that this
McDonald's were listening intently to Hughes's side of this phone call.
One of them, a lawyer, named Jeff Tickle put aside
his breakfast to help. Tickle started calling out a description
for Hughes to give the nine to one one operator.
The man they had seen had changed his appearance, now
in a green and black plaid shirt, jeans, and brown boots. Together,
(02:54):
they stood inside the McDonald's, watching through the giant picture
window as the mysterious figure wandered off the road and
into a wooded area.
Speaker 3 (03:02):
I can't see him now. I can't believe I'm standing here.
There's not a cop here by now.
Speaker 6 (03:06):
Darrell sail be there in just a minute.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
Tickle got in his car and drove a long valley
avenue looking for the individual. He eventually pulled to a
side street to discover the same man loading gear into
a gray niece on pickup. He trailed it and when
he got a clear view, he wrote down its tag
k n D one one one seven. He didn't know
(03:31):
it at the time, but he just stumbled upon the
key to unveiling the mysterious figure behind the Cereal bombings.
(03:54):
Episode four From a McDonald's payphone.
Speaker 7 (04:05):
I had arranged to meet a Birmingham news reporter.
Speaker 5 (04:11):
She covered the federal courts.
Speaker 7 (04:13):
She just wanted to catch up on my first like
five months in office and how things were going. And
as I got in the car, the radio said that
there was a traffic problem initially on south side and
to steer clear of tenth Avenue South. But then shortly
thereafter they came back and said that there were a
report that there had been a bomb explode.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
Doug Jones is a figure of note in Alabama politics.
His tenure as a US Senator spanned from twenty eighteen
to twenty twenty one, a period in which he was
thrust into the limelight as the first Democratic senator in
the state of Alabama in twenty five years. But Doug
Jones led a reputable career long before making the Senate.
Speaker 6 (04:55):
His roots were in law.
Speaker 1 (04:57):
In nineteen ninety eight, when the Birmingham abortion clinic bombing
took place, he was a US attorney working high profile
litigation cases.
Speaker 7 (05:09):
I parked my car because they had all of tenth
Street South cardened off with Tate, and the police officer
that was standing there obviously recognized me, and I said,
I know what's going on. What's happened? He said, well,
we've had the bomb explode at the clinic. We got
a police officer down. He's dead. There's a nurse who's
(05:30):
been severely injured. I don't know if she'll make it
or not, but we just got her in the ambulance
and they took off and I'm looking and I just
looked literally to my immediate left, and there was the
clinic building and you could see the awning had been destroyed,
windows had been broken out. It was a mess, you know.
I like to say sometimes it looked like images that
you would have seen through some bombing on another part
(05:53):
of the world.
Speaker 5 (05:54):
And the body of.
Speaker 7 (05:55):
The police officer was there, and I started moving that
way because there was no one around that police officer's body,
and I instinctively started moving that way, and I said, well,
we've got to do something. And then I had a
hand grab my shoulder and stop me. He said, Doug,
you can't go up there. I said, why not. He's
(06:16):
you know, we seem like we've got to do something,
and he said, look, we're concerned that there could be
a secondary device and we can't go up there.
Speaker 5 (06:25):
For a while, the FBI atf.
Speaker 7 (06:29):
Birmingham Police were all coming in with their mobile units
and agents, keeping the area cleared, staying away from the scene,
all coming, setting up radio, setting up things in the
command post.
Speaker 5 (06:42):
The most significant.
Speaker 7 (06:43):
Part of that day for me was establishing the joint
Task Force to investigate this case. I talked to the
Attorney General. She had a preference for having the FBI
take complete charge, and I said, you know, with all
due respect, we've got a Birmingham police officer down. I
(07:06):
want a ATF to take charge of doing all the
forensics on the bomb. Do your thing and tell me
what exploded. Get all that forensics to me for the FBI.
You do what the FBI does best. You track down suspects,
you track down witnesses, you do fingerprints, you do whatever DNA,
if there is anything, whatever analysis that you need to do.
Speaker 5 (07:28):
You help get the search warrants.
Speaker 7 (07:30):
And I said, the third thing is I know that
there's often some friction between state and federal, but I
want the Birmingham police to be a full partner here.
They lost one of their own. We established that task force.
It became known in the FBI files as Sandbomb, named
after Sandy Sanderson, the police officer who died, and that
(07:52):
task force, I think together did a pretty remarkable job.
Speaker 1 (07:58):
And this time with bomb something was different. The bomber
didn't just up and vanish before the explosion.
Speaker 7 (08:06):
Jermaine Hughes was the freshman African American student from you know,
kind of a small town in Alabama, and he was
doing his laundry, if I recall correctly, he was doing
the laundry in the basement of the dorm and he
heard the bomb explode, and when he looked out of
his window, you could see some smoke and some those
(08:27):
things coming from over the hill where the clinic was,
and some people moving that way. But yet there was
one individual that appeared to have some kind of disguise.
Speaker 5 (08:40):
On, according to Germaine, and was not running but walking
very hurriedly away.
Speaker 7 (08:46):
From the scene. And he just thought to himself, there's
something wrong with this picture. There's just something wrong with
that person, and left his laundry then decided to go
look and see for himself, not at the scene, but
that individual he saw, and he followed him some. At
(09:09):
one point he walked near him and Jermaine kind of
pretended he had a problem with his car, But then
he loses him and he gets in his car and
he drives around to try to see what he could find.
And he goes over Red Mountain and there's a McDonald
sitting on the other side. Now, he calls nine to
(09:31):
one to one, starts trying to describe what he saw.
And there he is there, he is right outside here,
and Jeff Tickle, who's a lawyer in Birmingham, is sitting
right there having breakfast and hears him and he helps
him describe what this man is wearing at the time.
(09:51):
Before he gets to the intersection, he cuts through the
woods and vanishes. So Jermaine finishes his call and he
and Jeff Tickle get in their separate vehicles.
Speaker 5 (10:03):
They went in different places looking.
Speaker 7 (10:06):
Jeff saw him get in a truck, a gray Nissan
pickup truck, and took a McDonald's coffee cup and wrote
the tag number of the pickup truck down.
Speaker 1 (10:20):
Now law enforcement had to lead. They had a prime suspect.
And what's more, forensics had determined that this bomb was
detonated remotely, which meant the bomber was watching and deciding
when to detonate. This time, the bomber wanted to choose
his victims, wanted to see his victims suffer, wanted to
(10:41):
see the damage he inflicted.
Speaker 7 (10:43):
The tag number we ran and was registered to Eric Rudolph,
Eric Robert Rudolph. They initially put out what the color
(11:05):
bolo be on the lookout for the gray Nissan pickup truck.
We knew it was North Carolina plate, so they started looking.
Speaker 1 (11:13):
Doug Jones and his team had no clue who Eric
Rudolph was.
Speaker 6 (11:17):
No one did.
Speaker 1 (11:19):
He wasn't a suspect on anyone's list, and the truth
is there was no list.
Speaker 6 (11:25):
This was the first real lead in the investigation.
Speaker 7 (11:28):
So at some point in that day they tracked his
driver's license down. We had no id that the driver
of that vehicle was in fact Eric Rudolph.
Speaker 5 (11:40):
The only thing that we knew is that.
Speaker 7 (11:42):
Eric Rudolph's truck we believe was involved in this bombing.
And and candidly, we were very sensitive about what had
happened in Atlanta. In Atlanta, Richard Jewell became a suspect.
Speaker 5 (11:58):
It was leaked.
Speaker 7 (11:59):
There was an incredible intense focus on Richard Jewell, and
as it turns out, there was nothing to that. We
didn't want to repeat that, and we took extra cautions
to try to not to do that.
Speaker 1 (12:19):
Jermaine Hughes and Jeff Tickle may have seen Rudolph fleeing
the scene, but as far as law enforcement was learning,
Eric Robert Rudolph was a ghost. Aside from his current
driver's license, his vehicle registration in an eight year old
military record, Rudolph had no paper trail. He owned no property,
he paid no taxes, he never voted, he had no
(12:41):
bank accounts, and he had never used a credit card.
He had no criminal record, not even a speeding ticket.
And now, following the Birmingham clinic bombing, there were more
than five agencies involved, including the FBI. That's a lot
of cooks in the kitchen, which makes it that much
harder to keep the lid on tight.
Speaker 7 (13:02):
There was a lot of stress on everybody in the FBI.
They were already under tremendous pressure to solve the Atlanta
Park cases and the women's clinic and the gay nightclub
in Atlanta.
Speaker 5 (13:12):
They were under.
Speaker 7 (13:13):
Tremendous pressure there, and that is another reason why I
wanted to make sure that this case stayed here.
Speaker 5 (13:21):
I didn't have those pressures.
Speaker 7 (13:23):
But yeah, we butted heads a few times.
Speaker 1 (13:26):
This is not an uncommon problem, and in this case,
it did work itself out, but not before a few
bumps in the road.
Speaker 5 (13:34):
We spent a day or two trying to find him.
We couldn't find.
Speaker 7 (13:37):
Him, so we decided that we did not have enough
because we did not have a good idea on the individual,
only the truck. So the only other available option to
us to make sure we brought him in for questioning
was a material witness warrant and we were able to
package that together to say, this person we believe has
(14:00):
material information about this crime that was committed in Birmingham, Alabama.
Speaker 5 (14:05):
We have been unable to locate him.
Speaker 7 (14:07):
We don't have any reason to think that he would
cooperate with us, and so we want the ability to
arrest him and hold him should we be able to
find him.
Speaker 1 (14:21):
At this point, based on the directional plates found in
each of the bombs, law enforcement was fairly certain that
these different bombings were connected. But how does that information
help you find a suspect. Here's former US Attorney Ken
Alexander again.
Speaker 8 (14:36):
Well, there's been a change in law enforcement since the Olympics,
and I think part of it has results of the
Olympic bombing. There was talk at the time though that
the recording by the bomber that there's a bomb Cinceennial Park,
there is.
Speaker 1 (14:51):
A bomb in any old farm, you have a thirty minute.
Speaker 8 (14:57):
There's talk of playing that, as you can imagine, and
if you had played that message right after the bombing,
that voice, that recording would have essentially gone virally. Everybody
in the world would have heard it. I've got to
think that at the time, had that been played right
off the bat, that there's a pretty good chance erk
Rudoff would have been ideed much earlier. But that just
(15:19):
wasn't the way that law enforcement generally operated at the time.
By contrast, if you fast forward to the Boston marathon bombing, there,
when you had pictures of the two brothers, those went
out immediately and people started identifying who the brothers were.
That allowed the case to be solved a lot faster.
(15:40):
So there's been a morphing in law enforcement of bringing
the public in to help with an investigation as supposed
to push in the public aside. If that morphing had
taken place already, there's a chance we would have found
Eric Rudoff far earlier than we did.
Speaker 4 (16:02):
Vic Ocorn called me up and said, hey, we've got
a solid lead on this Birmingham bombing that had occurred
earlier that day. He said a witness had got a
personal description, a vehicle description, and they'd got a tag number,
a license plate number. And I figured, since he's called me,
the tag probably came back to somewhere in western North Carolina.
Speaker 1 (16:25):
FBI agent Jim Russell was one of just a few
agents responsible for the western side of North Carolina back
in nineteen ninety eight. He mostly investigated violent crimes in
the area's expanse of National Forests and Cherokee Indian reservations.
Speaker 4 (16:40):
And he said they had already run the tag and
got an address as a registration, and it came back
to an apartment complex in Asheville, North Carolina. This is
close to Quentin time, close to five. So my other
new agent partner, Rex Roden Rex and I went out
to that location.
Speaker 1 (17:01):
Western North Carolina is hill country Russia's forests, with steep
terrain and rushing rivers running through the valleys. The forest
is overwhelming, it kind of swallows you. Everything is isolated,
even neighbors, and there's a libertarian sort of independence that
doesn't quite mesh with the idea of a society. The
(17:22):
people here are straightforward resistant to nuance, but sometimes nuance
is really important.
Speaker 6 (17:29):
The devil is in the details.
Speaker 1 (17:32):
The apartment that Jim Russell and his partner Rex went
to investigate was a sixty four unit apartment complex called
Skyland Heights in Nashville.
Speaker 4 (17:39):
The truck was not in the parking lot, so we
went to the manager's office and she was just getting
ready to leave, and we asked her if she had
a tenant by the name of Eric Rudolph staying there
at the complex. And she says, that name doesn't ring
a bell. I don't know everybody, but I'll be happy
to check. And she went through all the old tenancies
(18:01):
of the apartment complex. He says, the only person I
found here is a Patricia Rudolph. I asked her if
can we look at the application, and I noticed on
there that there was an emergency contact name a number
for Moura Roads in Hendersonville, North Carolina, which is about
fifteen to twenty miles south of Asheville, and there was
(18:24):
an emergency contact number. And when I called that number,
her husband, Keith picked up the phone. I started talking
to Keith and I asked him what he knew about
and was he somehow related to Eric Rudolph and he said, yes,
that's my brother in law. It's Moura's brother. He said,
(18:49):
I'm not too shocked that the FBI has called me.
What did he do now? And I said, well, there's
some indication that he might have had something to do
with the bombing that happened in Burma. And he said, well,
I don't want to talk in front of Moura.
Speaker 1 (19:06):
Mara is Rudolf's older sister. Little was known about her then,
little is known about her now.
Speaker 4 (19:14):
She was cooperative to an extent, but she didn't want
to believe that he could have done something like that,
and so she was more reticent. I believe we got
much more information out of Keith because Keith didn't like him.
Keith didn't like Eric Keith. They just didn't get along.
So we arranged to meet him at a shop that
was like a bicycle shop.
Speaker 1 (19:33):
Jim Russell, his partner, and Keith huddled into a car
in that bicycle shop parking lot.
Speaker 4 (19:39):
The first thing we asked is do you know where
Eric is at now? Where is he currently living? And
he said he had no specific location for him. Eric
was very secretive about his whereabouts, always had been. If
I had to guess. I think he's probably living in
Western North Carolina, in Topton, North Carolina, which is his
(20:01):
boy hit home.
Speaker 1 (20:04):
Topton's located about two and a half hours from Atlanta,
going up I seventy five to five seventy five to
get there. Like all of western North Carolina, it's beautiful
but remote. Billboard screaming of Jesus, guns and pharmaceuticals are rampant,
and they're not always advertised on the separate billboards. The
area gets a lot of vacationers with folks coming to
(20:26):
visit the Nanahala National Forest. But not to be disturbed
are the residents of Topton. People in this region don't
go in for a lot of bullshit and outsiders they
bring a lot of bullshit.
Speaker 4 (20:39):
And I said, does he you know, is he married?
Does he have girlfriends? Does he have friends? He says no,
He's a loner. He's always been a loner. He tends
to irritate people. He's very racist, he's very sexist. He
is anti government. And as he's clicking off these terms
to describe Eric Rudolph Rex and I were just kind
(21:01):
of look at each other. Nothing he's saying is eliminating
Eric as being a possible suspect. All those indications are
taking off the right boxes that we are on the
trail of the right person.
Speaker 6 (21:14):
Keith said.
Speaker 1 (21:15):
The last time he and Mars saw her brother was
the week prior when he came to their son's basketball game.
Rudolph is late to the game and left immediately after
in a gray Nissan pickup truck with a white camper top.
Speaker 4 (21:26):
And he said, and that's typical. He never tells us
he's coming. He just will show up, you know. We said,
is there a telephone number for him? He said, if
he has his phone, he doesn't give us any information.
Everything is a one way street with Eric.
Speaker 1 (21:42):
He's a ghost, not only to law enforcement, but to
his family as well.
Speaker 4 (21:46):
I developed a good working relationship and a friendship with
the SBI special agent that worked in the Topton Andrews,
North Carolina area, by the name of Tom Fry. Tom
Fry had been a State Bureau of Investigation agent out there
for maybe at least fifteen years. So every bad guy,
(22:07):
every drug dealer, Tom pretty much knew. And Tom had
never heard of Eric Rudolph. So he says, I'm going
to do some record checks and I'll meet you in
the morning. It's very rural, very isolated. It's in some beautiful,
(22:42):
beautiful mountains. I don't even think there's a traffic light,
you know, very two lane, windy roads. People as a
general rule that can be cooperative to the FBI, but
there's a lot of anti federal government sediment out there.
(23:04):
Tom and I had gotten up there early. We were
going to his last known address where he had grown up.
You know, it was a good investigative technique that we
have used in the past. Out there is you know,
it seems like the guy who delivers the mail knows
a lot about a lot of people. Tom and I
we were just trying to catch up with this rural
(23:26):
delivery mail truck for a while, and we finally got
up with him, and then he said, nah, I know
Eric Rudolph. I haven't seen him in a long time.
But if anybody was a friend of Eric Rudolf, it's
Randy Cochran, the every buddy's in high school. You know,
it might be a good idea for you to get
touched with Randy. He said, that'd be my best guess
(23:47):
of trying to find out where Eric is living right now.
By the time we got up to his house. I'm
thinking it's around six o'clock in the evening, and I
didn't know who he was at the time, but he
opens the door and I said, you know, it's Jim
Russell FBI, Tom fry SBI. We're wanting to ask you
(24:08):
about And before we could even get the word eye,
he says, oh, you guys would probably hear about Eric,
and I said, Eric Cooch said Eric Rudolph, and Tom
and I are dumbfounded at this point where he just
kind of looked at each other and we said, well,
why would you think we're here about Eric Rudolph And
he said, well, because he's all over the news. Tom
(24:30):
and I were like, and he said, and if you
want to come in, and there's a press conference going
on right now, you can watch.
Speaker 9 (24:48):
You have issue the warrant for a mister Eric Robert Rudolph.
This is a material witness warm and no one should
jump to any conclusions about the fact that we are
looking to question mister Rudolph.
Speaker 4 (25:08):
No one told us that there was a press conference
coming and that they were just gonna send that out
to all the airwaves, and we were upset, you know,
everything was hey, this is confidential. We don't want to
spook him. We're trying to find out where he's living
without letting everybody know why.
Speaker 1 (25:27):
No one could have known at the time, but that
press conference could have very well been responsible for what
would become years of searching.
Speaker 4 (25:36):
We further talked to Randy, saying, Okay, do you have
a phone, do you have an address for him? Where's
he living? And that's when Randy said, I don't have
a specific address, but I have a feeling or a
hunch that he's in Murphy, North Carolina, which was kind
of on the border of Tennessee and North Carolina. And
(25:58):
so Tom had a real good relationship with the sheriff
of Cherokee County, Jack Thompson. So he called Jack and
he said, well, I'll go back into the office. I'll
run some records checks and see if I can find
out anything for Eric Rudolph. So we started heading there
and Tom called Sheriff Thompson again and the sheriff said, yeah,
(26:19):
I've got electricity and water records that he's renting a
trailer here in Murphy and it's current. So he says,
and I can run out there right now. Jim and
I said, no, Sheriff, let us get there. Let us
do this approach to him tactically. If he's the guy
(26:39):
that committed a bombing. There's several reasons why I didn't
want Sheriff Jack Thompson just go up a knock on
his front door. And so it was decided that John
and I would put our tactical gear on and Tom
Fry would drive us in his car to the end
of the driveway that goes to his trailer.
Speaker 5 (26:58):
We make a.
Speaker 4 (26:59):
Tactical chuck the driveway. It was several hundred yards in
before we even saw the trailer. The lights were on,
which I thought, that's a great sign. But there's like
a parking space next to the trailer, no truck. John
just watched the road. Well, I do a three sixty
around the trailer, make sure the truck wasn't parked behind
(27:22):
the trailer like he was hiding it, and or see
if he was visible within any of the windows as
I went around the trailer. So I did that, no
truck behind the trailer and no one home. That was
the offeshit moment is like, you know, we'd hoped he'd
been there. So we sat up in the woods all
(27:42):
night waiting for Eric to come home. They kept the
surveillance of the trailer for three more days, but at
that point he was gone.
Speaker 3 (27:50):
You know.
Speaker 4 (27:51):
There was just no idea where it could have been.
It was apparent that he'd left in a hurry. He
had over one thousand dollars in one hundred dollar bills
taped behind a picture in the wall of his bedroom,
so he didn't stop to take that. You know, this
was January in western North Carolina. It was cold, and
when I first got to the trailer, I noticed that
(28:13):
the screen door was shut, but the front door was
wide open. Yeah, I mean, you're just losing heat the
way that indicated to me. So based upon other things,
I think he just got out of there as.
Speaker 5 (28:24):
Quick as he could.
Speaker 6 (28:31):
Next time on.
Speaker 2 (28:32):
Flashpoint, yeah, I come to my dad's holes and I asked.
Speaker 5 (28:38):
Him where the cads was. My dad said, I ain't
going to tell you to him thing.
Speaker 3 (28:45):
They said.
Speaker 8 (28:46):
He said, if Rudolph come to my poor trut now,
I'd feed him.
Speaker 3 (28:51):
Everybody helped him, may he didn't do it.
Speaker 1 (29:12):
Flashpoint is a production of Tenderfoot TV in association with iHeartMedia.
I'm your host Cole La Caassio, Donald Albright and Payne
Lindsay are executive producers on behalf of Tenderfoot TV. Flashpoint
was created, written, and executive produced by Doug Mattica and
myself on behalf of seven nine nine seven. Lead producer
(29:35):
is Alex Espastad, along with producers Jamie Albright and Meredith Stadman.
Speaker 6 (29:40):
Our associate producer is witt Lukassio.
Speaker 1 (29:44):
Editing by Alex Espastad with additional editing by Liam Luxon
and Sidney Evans. Supervising producer is Tracy Kaplan. Artwork by
Station sixteen, original music by Jay Ragsdale, mixed by Day
and Cole. Thank you to Orrin Rosenbaum and the team
at Uta Beck Media and Marketing and the Nord Group.
(30:08):
Special thanks to Angela q, Tylie Revive Matica and Tim Livingston.
For more podcasts like Flashpoint, search Tenderfoot TV on your
favorite podcast app, or visit us at tenderfoot dot tv.
Thanks for listening. Thanks for listening to this episode of Flashpoint.
(30:37):
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subscribe to tenderfoot Plus at tenderfootplus dot com or on
Apple Podcasts.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
You're listening to Flashpoint, a production of tenderfoot TV and
association with iHeartMedia. The views and opinions expressed in this
podcast are solely those of the individuals participating in the podcast.
This podcast also contains subject matter which may not be
suitable for everyone. Listener discretion is advised.
Speaker 3 (00:41):
Oh this is really important. Another explosion downtown. Yeah, I
see a guy walking from that direction and he had
a wig and it was like, what was that explosion?
And you know, I walked outside him.
Speaker 4 (00:56):
What kind of thing?
Speaker 3 (00:57):
And this guy he was short with here a long week?
What color the wig was like?
Speaker 5 (01:05):
Brown color?
Speaker 1 (01:08):
This is from a transcript of the nine one one
call made by Jermaine Hughes, a UAB law student, just
moments after a huge explosion in a Birmingham abortion clinic
shook the entire downtown area on January twenty ninth, nineteen
ninety eight. The same explosion that killed a police officer,
Robert Sanderson, and critically injured a nurse Emily Lyons. Hughes
(01:31):
made the call from a phone and a McDonald's near
the clinic.
Speaker 4 (01:34):
Was he what or black?
Speaker 3 (01:36):
He's he's what guy?
Speaker 1 (01:39):
What did he have all?
Speaker 5 (01:40):
Sagan?
Speaker 6 (01:41):
What did he have all?
Speaker 3 (01:44):
I was following him in a burst. He had on
flannel or something. I'm not exactly sure.
Speaker 1 (01:51):
This call went on for a while, with the nine
one one operator and Hughes talking past each other. At
one point, the operator even scolded him, you can't even
what he had all met Mabe, you.
Speaker 6 (02:02):
Cannot remember a clothing description.
Speaker 3 (02:05):
No, I don't remember, Coles kind of exasperated right now.
Speaker 6 (02:10):
Hughes's frustration was building.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
At one point, he lost the connection and called back,
still trying to convince someone to believe him, when suddenly
he saw a man walking down twentieth Street who looked familiar.
Speaker 3 (02:22):
I got him.
Speaker 4 (02:23):
Where is he?
Speaker 3 (02:24):
I got him? I think this is him.
Speaker 6 (02:25):
Is he on foot?
Speaker 3 (02:27):
Yes, he's on foot, Yes, blood glasses on. He's walking
into the woods toward Vulcan.
Speaker 1 (02:33):
It's safe to say most of the customers that this
McDonald's were listening intently to Hughes's side of this phone call.
One of them, a lawyer, named Jeff Tickle put aside
his breakfast to help. Tickle started calling out a description
for Hughes to give the nine to one one operator.
The man they had seen had changed his appearance, now
in a green and black plaid shirt, jeans, and brown boots. Together,
(02:54):
they stood inside the McDonald's, watching through the giant picture
window as the mysterious figure wandered off the road and
into a wooded area.
Speaker 3 (03:02):
I can't see him now. I can't believe I'm standing here.
There's not a cop here by now.
Speaker 6 (03:06):
Darrell sail be there in just a minute.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
Tickle got in his car and drove a long valley
avenue looking for the individual. He eventually pulled to a
side street to discover the same man loading gear into
a gray niece on pickup. He trailed it and when
he got a clear view, he wrote down its tag
k n D one one one seven. He didn't know
(03:31):
it at the time, but he just stumbled upon the
key to unveiling the mysterious figure behind the Cereal bombings.
(03:54):
Episode four From a McDonald's payphone.
Speaker 7 (04:05):
I had arranged to meet a Birmingham news reporter.
Speaker 5 (04:11):
She covered the federal courts.
Speaker 7 (04:13):
She just wanted to catch up on my first like
five months in office and how things were going. And
as I got in the car, the radio said that
there was a traffic problem initially on south side and
to steer clear of tenth Avenue South. But then shortly
thereafter they came back and said that there were a
report that there had been a bomb explode.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
Doug Jones is a figure of note in Alabama politics.
His tenure as a US Senator spanned from twenty eighteen
to twenty twenty one, a period in which he was
thrust into the limelight as the first Democratic senator in
the state of Alabama in twenty five years. But Doug
Jones led a reputable career long before making the Senate.
Speaker 6 (04:55):
His roots were in law.
Speaker 1 (04:57):
In nineteen ninety eight, when the Birmingham abortion clinic bombing
took place, he was a US attorney working high profile
litigation cases.
Speaker 7 (05:09):
I parked my car because they had all of tenth
Street South cardened off with Tate, and the police officer
that was standing there obviously recognized me, and I said,
I know what's going on. What's happened? He said, well,
we've had the bomb explode at the clinic. We got
a police officer down. He's dead. There's a nurse who's
(05:30):
been severely injured. I don't know if she'll make it
or not, but we just got her in the ambulance
and they took off and I'm looking and I just
looked literally to my immediate left, and there was the
clinic building and you could see the awning had been destroyed,
windows had been broken out. It was a mess, you know.
I like to say sometimes it looked like images that
you would have seen through some bombing on another part
(05:53):
of the world.
Speaker 5 (05:54):
And the body of.
Speaker 7 (05:55):
The police officer was there, and I started moving that
way because there was no one around that police officer's body,
and I instinctively started moving that way, and I said, well,
we've got to do something. And then I had a
hand grab my shoulder and stop me. He said, Doug,
you can't go up there. I said, why not. He's
(06:16):
you know, we seem like we've got to do something,
and he said, look, we're concerned that there could be
a secondary device and we can't go up there.
Speaker 5 (06:25):
For a while, the FBI atf.
Speaker 7 (06:29):
Birmingham Police were all coming in with their mobile units
and agents, keeping the area cleared, staying away from the scene,
all coming, setting up radio, setting up things in the
command post.
Speaker 5 (06:42):
The most significant.
Speaker 7 (06:43):
Part of that day for me was establishing the joint
Task Force to investigate this case. I talked to the
Attorney General. She had a preference for having the FBI
take complete charge, and I said, you know, with all
due respect, we've got a Birmingham police officer down. I
(07:06):
want a ATF to take charge of doing all the
forensics on the bomb. Do your thing and tell me
what exploded. Get all that forensics to me for the FBI.
You do what the FBI does best. You track down suspects,
you track down witnesses, you do fingerprints, you do whatever DNA,
if there is anything, whatever analysis that you need to do.
Speaker 5 (07:28):
You help get the search warrants.
Speaker 7 (07:30):
And I said, the third thing is I know that
there's often some friction between state and federal, but I
want the Birmingham police to be a full partner here.
They lost one of their own. We established that task force.
It became known in the FBI files as Sandbomb, named
after Sandy Sanderson, the police officer who died, and that
(07:52):
task force, I think together did a pretty remarkable job.
Speaker 1 (07:58):
And this time with bomb something was different. The bomber
didn't just up and vanish before the explosion.
Speaker 7 (08:06):
Jermaine Hughes was the freshman African American student from you know,
kind of a small town in Alabama, and he was
doing his laundry, if I recall correctly, he was doing
the laundry in the basement of the dorm and he
heard the bomb explode, and when he looked out of
his window, you could see some smoke and some those
(08:27):
things coming from over the hill where the clinic was,
and some people moving that way. But yet there was
one individual that appeared to have some kind of disguise.
Speaker 5 (08:40):
On, according to Germaine, and was not running but walking
very hurriedly away.
Speaker 7 (08:46):
From the scene. And he just thought to himself, there's
something wrong with this picture. There's just something wrong with
that person, and left his laundry then decided to go
look and see for himself, not at the scene, but
that individual he saw, and he followed him some. At
(09:09):
one point he walked near him and Jermaine kind of
pretended he had a problem with his car, But then
he loses him and he gets in his car and
he drives around to try to see what he could find.
And he goes over Red Mountain and there's a McDonald
sitting on the other side. Now, he calls nine to
(09:31):
one to one, starts trying to describe what he saw.
And there he is there, he is right outside here,
and Jeff Tickle, who's a lawyer in Birmingham, is sitting
right there having breakfast and hears him and he helps
him describe what this man is wearing at the time.
(09:51):
Before he gets to the intersection, he cuts through the
woods and vanishes. So Jermaine finishes his call and he
and Jeff Tickle get in their separate vehicles.
Speaker 5 (10:03):
They went in different places looking.
Speaker 7 (10:06):
Jeff saw him get in a truck, a gray Nissan
pickup truck, and took a McDonald's coffee cup and wrote
the tag number of the pickup truck down.
Speaker 1 (10:20):
Now law enforcement had to lead. They had a prime suspect.
And what's more, forensics had determined that this bomb was
detonated remotely, which meant the bomber was watching and deciding
when to detonate. This time, the bomber wanted to choose
his victims, wanted to see his victims suffer, wanted to
(10:41):
see the damage he inflicted.
Speaker 7 (10:43):
The tag number we ran and was registered to Eric Rudolph,
Eric Robert Rudolph. They initially put out what the color
(11:05):
bolo be on the lookout for the gray Nissan pickup truck.
We knew it was North Carolina plate, so they started looking.
Speaker 1 (11:13):
Doug Jones and his team had no clue who Eric
Rudolph was.
Speaker 6 (11:17):
No one did.
Speaker 1 (11:19):
He wasn't a suspect on anyone's list, and the truth
is there was no list.
Speaker 6 (11:25):
This was the first real lead in the investigation.
Speaker 7 (11:28):
So at some point in that day they tracked his
driver's license down. We had no id that the driver
of that vehicle was in fact Eric Rudolph.
Speaker 5 (11:40):
The only thing that we knew is that.
Speaker 7 (11:42):
Eric Rudolph's truck we believe was involved in this bombing.
And and candidly, we were very sensitive about what had
happened in Atlanta. In Atlanta, Richard Jewell became a suspect.
Speaker 5 (11:58):
It was leaked.
Speaker 7 (11:59):
There was an incredible intense focus on Richard Jewell, and
as it turns out, there was nothing to that. We
didn't want to repeat that, and we took extra cautions
to try to not to do that.
Speaker 1 (12:19):
Jermaine Hughes and Jeff Tickle may have seen Rudolph fleeing
the scene, but as far as law enforcement was learning,
Eric Robert Rudolph was a ghost. Aside from his current
driver's license, his vehicle registration in an eight year old
military record, Rudolph had no paper trail. He owned no property,
he paid no taxes, he never voted, he had no
(12:41):
bank accounts, and he had never used a credit card.
He had no criminal record, not even a speeding ticket.
And now, following the Birmingham clinic bombing, there were more
than five agencies involved, including the FBI. That's a lot
of cooks in the kitchen, which makes it that much
harder to keep the lid on tight.
Speaker 7 (13:02):
There was a lot of stress on everybody in the FBI.
They were already under tremendous pressure to solve the Atlanta
Park cases and the women's clinic and the gay nightclub
in Atlanta.
Speaker 5 (13:12):
They were under.
Speaker 7 (13:13):
Tremendous pressure there, and that is another reason why I
wanted to make sure that this case stayed here.
Speaker 5 (13:21):
I didn't have those pressures.
Speaker 7 (13:23):
But yeah, we butted heads a few times.
Speaker 1 (13:26):
This is not an uncommon problem, and in this case,
it did work itself out, but not before a few
bumps in the road.
Speaker 5 (13:34):
We spent a day or two trying to find him.
We couldn't find.
Speaker 7 (13:37):
Him, so we decided that we did not have enough
because we did not have a good idea on the individual,
only the truck. So the only other available option to
us to make sure we brought him in for questioning
was a material witness warrant and we were able to
package that together to say, this person we believe has
(14:00):
material information about this crime that was committed in Birmingham, Alabama.
Speaker 5 (14:05):
We have been unable to locate him.
Speaker 7 (14:07):
We don't have any reason to think that he would
cooperate with us, and so we want the ability to
arrest him and hold him should we be able to
find him.
Speaker 1 (14:21):
At this point, based on the directional plates found in
each of the bombs, law enforcement was fairly certain that
these different bombings were connected. But how does that information
help you find a suspect. Here's former US Attorney Ken
Alexander again.
Speaker 8 (14:36):
Well, there's been a change in law enforcement since the Olympics,
and I think part of it has results of the
Olympic bombing. There was talk at the time though that
the recording by the bomber that there's a bomb Cinceennial Park,
there is.
Speaker 1 (14:51):
A bomb in any old farm, you have a thirty minute.
Speaker 8 (14:57):
There's talk of playing that, as you can imagine, and
if you had played that message right after the bombing,
that voice, that recording would have essentially gone virally. Everybody
in the world would have heard it. I've got to
think that at the time, had that been played right
off the bat, that there's a pretty good chance erk
Rudoff would have been ideed much earlier. But that just
(15:19):
wasn't the way that law enforcement generally operated at the time.
By contrast, if you fast forward to the Boston marathon bombing, there,
when you had pictures of the two brothers, those went
out immediately and people started identifying who the brothers were.
That allowed the case to be solved a lot faster.
(15:40):
So there's been a morphing in law enforcement of bringing
the public in to help with an investigation as supposed
to push in the public aside. If that morphing had
taken place already, there's a chance we would have found
Eric Rudoff far earlier than we did.
Speaker 4 (16:02):
Vic Ocorn called me up and said, hey, we've got
a solid lead on this Birmingham bombing that had occurred
earlier that day. He said a witness had got a
personal description, a vehicle description, and they'd got a tag number,
a license plate number. And I figured, since he's called me,
the tag probably came back to somewhere in western North Carolina.
Speaker 1 (16:25):
FBI agent Jim Russell was one of just a few
agents responsible for the western side of North Carolina back
in nineteen ninety eight. He mostly investigated violent crimes in
the area's expanse of National Forests and Cherokee Indian reservations.
Speaker 4 (16:40):
And he said they had already run the tag and
got an address as a registration, and it came back
to an apartment complex in Asheville, North Carolina. This is
close to Quentin time, close to five. So my other
new agent partner, Rex Roden Rex and I went out
to that location.
Speaker 1 (17:01):
Western North Carolina is hill country Russia's forests, with steep
terrain and rushing rivers running through the valleys. The forest
is overwhelming, it kind of swallows you. Everything is isolated,
even neighbors, and there's a libertarian sort of independence that
doesn't quite mesh with the idea of a society. The
(17:22):
people here are straightforward resistant to nuance, but sometimes nuance
is really important.
Speaker 6 (17:29):
The devil is in the details.
Speaker 1 (17:32):
The apartment that Jim Russell and his partner Rex went
to investigate was a sixty four unit apartment complex called
Skyland Heights in Nashville.
Speaker 4 (17:39):
The truck was not in the parking lot, so we
went to the manager's office and she was just getting
ready to leave, and we asked her if she had
a tenant by the name of Eric Rudolph staying there
at the complex. And she says, that name doesn't ring
a bell. I don't know everybody, but I'll be happy
to check. And she went through all the old tenancies
(18:01):
of the apartment complex. He says, the only person I
found here is a Patricia Rudolph. I asked her if
can we look at the application, and I noticed on
there that there was an emergency contact name a number
for Moura Roads in Hendersonville, North Carolina, which is about
fifteen to twenty miles south of Asheville, and there was
(18:24):
an emergency contact number. And when I called that number,
her husband, Keith picked up the phone. I started talking
to Keith and I asked him what he knew about
and was he somehow related to Eric Rudolph and he said, yes,
that's my brother in law. It's Moura's brother. He said,
(18:49):
I'm not too shocked that the FBI has called me.
What did he do now? And I said, well, there's
some indication that he might have had something to do
with the bombing that happened in Burma. And he said, well,
I don't want to talk in front of Moura.
Speaker 1 (19:06):
Mara is Rudolf's older sister. Little was known about her then,
little is known about her now.
Speaker 4 (19:14):
She was cooperative to an extent, but she didn't want
to believe that he could have done something like that,
and so she was more reticent. I believe we got
much more information out of Keith because Keith didn't like him.
Keith didn't like Eric Keith. They just didn't get along.
So we arranged to meet him at a shop that
was like a bicycle shop.
Speaker 1 (19:33):
Jim Russell, his partner, and Keith huddled into a car
in that bicycle shop parking lot.
Speaker 4 (19:39):
The first thing we asked is do you know where
Eric is at now? Where is he currently living? And
he said he had no specific location for him. Eric
was very secretive about his whereabouts, always had been. If
I had to guess. I think he's probably living in
Western North Carolina, in Topton, North Carolina, which is his
(20:01):
boy hit home.
Speaker 1 (20:04):
Topton's located about two and a half hours from Atlanta,
going up I seventy five to five seventy five to
get there. Like all of western North Carolina, it's beautiful
but remote. Billboard screaming of Jesus, guns and pharmaceuticals are rampant,
and they're not always advertised on the separate billboards. The
area gets a lot of vacationers with folks coming to
(20:26):
visit the Nanahala National Forest. But not to be disturbed
are the residents of Topton. People in this region don't
go in for a lot of bullshit and outsiders they
bring a lot of bullshit.
Speaker 4 (20:39):
And I said, does he you know, is he married?
Does he have girlfriends? Does he have friends? He says no,
He's a loner. He's always been a loner. He tends
to irritate people. He's very racist, he's very sexist. He
is anti government. And as he's clicking off these terms
to describe Eric Rudolph Rex and I were just kind
(21:01):
of look at each other. Nothing he's saying is eliminating
Eric as being a possible suspect. All those indications are
taking off the right boxes that we are on the
trail of the right person.
Speaker 6 (21:14):
Keith said.
Speaker 1 (21:15):
The last time he and Mars saw her brother was
the week prior when he came to their son's basketball game.
Rudolph is late to the game and left immediately after
in a gray Nissan pickup truck with a white camper top.
Speaker 4 (21:26):
And he said, and that's typical. He never tells us
he's coming. He just will show up, you know. We said,
is there a telephone number for him? He said, if
he has his phone, he doesn't give us any information.
Everything is a one way street with Eric.
Speaker 1 (21:42):
He's a ghost, not only to law enforcement, but to
his family as well.
Speaker 4 (21:46):
I developed a good working relationship and a friendship with
the SBI special agent that worked in the Topton Andrews,
North Carolina area, by the name of Tom Fry. Tom
Fry had been a State Bureau of Investigation agent out there
for maybe at least fifteen years. So every bad guy,
(22:07):
every drug dealer, Tom pretty much knew. And Tom had
never heard of Eric Rudolph. So he says, I'm going
to do some record checks and I'll meet you in
the morning. It's very rural, very isolated. It's in some beautiful,
(22:42):
beautiful mountains. I don't even think there's a traffic light,
you know, very two lane, windy roads. People as a
general rule that can be cooperative to the FBI, but
there's a lot of anti federal government sediment out there.
(23:04):
Tom and I had gotten up there early. We were
going to his last known address where he had grown up.
You know, it was a good investigative technique that we
have used in the past. Out there is you know,
it seems like the guy who delivers the mail knows
a lot about a lot of people. Tom and I
we were just trying to catch up with this rural
(23:26):
delivery mail truck for a while, and we finally got
up with him, and then he said, nah, I know
Eric Rudolph. I haven't seen him in a long time.
But if anybody was a friend of Eric Rudolf, it's
Randy Cochran, the every buddy's in high school. You know,
it might be a good idea for you to get
touched with Randy. He said, that'd be my best guess
(23:47):
of trying to find out where Eric is living right now.
By the time we got up to his house. I'm
thinking it's around six o'clock in the evening, and I
didn't know who he was at the time, but he
opens the door and I said, you know, it's Jim
Russell FBI, Tom fry SBI. We're wanting to ask you
(24:08):
about And before we could even get the word eye,
he says, oh, you guys would probably hear about Eric,
and I said, Eric Cooch said Eric Rudolph, and Tom
and I are dumbfounded at this point where he just
kind of looked at each other and we said, well,
why would you think we're here about Eric Rudolph And
he said, well, because he's all over the news. Tom
(24:30):
and I were like, and he said, and if you
want to come in, and there's a press conference going
on right now, you can watch.
Speaker 9 (24:48):
You have issue the warrant for a mister Eric Robert Rudolph.
This is a material witness warm and no one should
jump to any conclusions about the fact that we are
looking to question mister Rudolph.
Speaker 4 (25:08):
No one told us that there was a press conference
coming and that they were just gonna send that out
to all the airwaves, and we were upset, you know,
everything was hey, this is confidential. We don't want to
spook him. We're trying to find out where he's living
without letting everybody know why.
Speaker 1 (25:27):
No one could have known at the time, but that
press conference could have very well been responsible for what
would become years of searching.
Speaker 4 (25:36):
We further talked to Randy, saying, Okay, do you have
a phone, do you have an address for him? Where's
he living? And that's when Randy said, I don't have
a specific address, but I have a feeling or a
hunch that he's in Murphy, North Carolina, which was kind
of on the border of Tennessee and North Carolina. And
(25:58):
so Tom had a real good relationship with the sheriff
of Cherokee County, Jack Thompson. So he called Jack and
he said, well, I'll go back into the office. I'll
run some records checks and see if I can find
out anything for Eric Rudolph. So we started heading there
and Tom called Sheriff Thompson again and the sheriff said, yeah,
(26:19):
I've got electricity and water records that he's renting a
trailer here in Murphy and it's current. So he says,
and I can run out there right now. Jim and
I said, no, Sheriff, let us get there. Let us
do this approach to him tactically. If he's the guy
(26:39):
that committed a bombing. There's several reasons why I didn't
want Sheriff Jack Thompson just go up a knock on
his front door. And so it was decided that John
and I would put our tactical gear on and Tom
Fry would drive us in his car to the end
of the driveway that goes to his trailer.
Speaker 5 (26:58):
We make a.
Speaker 4 (26:59):
Tactical chuck the driveway. It was several hundred yards in
before we even saw the trailer. The lights were on,
which I thought, that's a great sign. But there's like
a parking space next to the trailer, no truck. John
just watched the road. Well, I do a three sixty
around the trailer, make sure the truck wasn't parked behind
(27:22):
the trailer like he was hiding it, and or see
if he was visible within any of the windows as
I went around the trailer. So I did that, no
truck behind the trailer and no one home. That was
the offeshit moment is like, you know, we'd hoped he'd
been there. So we sat up in the woods all
(27:42):
night waiting for Eric to come home. They kept the
surveillance of the trailer for three more days, but at
that point he was gone.
Speaker 3 (27:50):
You know.
Speaker 4 (27:51):
There was just no idea where it could have been.
It was apparent that he'd left in a hurry. He
had over one thousand dollars in one hundred dollar bills
taped behind a picture in the wall of his bedroom,
so he didn't stop to take that. You know, this
was January in western North Carolina. It was cold, and
when I first got to the trailer, I noticed that
(28:13):
the screen door was shut, but the front door was
wide open. Yeah, I mean, you're just losing heat the
way that indicated to me. So based upon other things,
I think he just got out of there as.
Speaker 5 (28:24):
Quick as he could.
Speaker 6 (28:31):
Next time on.
Speaker 2 (28:32):
Flashpoint, yeah, I come to my dad's holes and I asked.
Speaker 5 (28:38):
Him where the cads was. My dad said, I ain't
going to tell you to him thing.
Speaker 3 (28:45):
They said.
Speaker 8 (28:46):
He said, if Rudolph come to my poor trut now,
I'd feed him.
Speaker 3 (28:51):
Everybody helped him, may he didn't do it.
Speaker 1 (29:12):
Flashpoint is a production of Tenderfoot TV in association with iHeartMedia.
I'm your host Cole La Caassio, Donald Albright and Payne
Lindsay are executive producers on behalf of Tenderfoot TV. Flashpoint
was created, written, and executive produced by Doug Mattica and
myself on behalf of seven nine nine seven. Lead producer
(29:35):
is Alex Espastad, along with producers Jamie Albright and Meredith Stadman.
Speaker 6 (29:40):
Our associate producer is witt Lukassio.
Speaker 1 (29:44):
Editing by Alex Espastad with additional editing by Liam Luxon
and Sidney Evans. Supervising producer is Tracy Kaplan. Artwork by
Station sixteen, original music by Jay Ragsdale, mixed by Day
and Cole. Thank you to Orrin Rosenbaum and the team
at Uta Beck Media and Marketing and the Nord Group.
(30:08):
Special thanks to Angela q, Tylie Revive Matica and Tim Livingston.
For more podcasts like Flashpoint, search Tenderfoot TV on your
favorite podcast app, or visit us at tenderfoot dot tv.
Thanks for listening. Thanks for listening to this episode of Flashpoint.
(30:37):
This series is released weekly absolutely free, but for ad
free listening, early access and exclusive bonuses, you can subscribe
to Tenderfoot plus on Apple Podcasts or at tenderfootplus dot com,
Host
Cole Locascio
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