July 8, 2021 • 29 mins
Mike Pompeo is an American Politician, Businessman and Attorney who served as both the Director of the CIA and the 70th US Secretary of State under Donald Trump from 2018 to 2021. Mike joins David for a discussion on China, the CIA, and the future of the Republican Party.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Time as a conservative Republican, as you'll find, but I
want good things for America. When they get it right,
we should all applaud, we should encourage them, and to
the extent they're seeking our help, we should help them.
By the way, when they have it wrong, I feel
like I have an obligation to said no, I think
you have that wrong. So I'd like to welcome this
(00:22):
week a very special guest. He's a former Secretary of
State and of course the former director of the CIA,
a congressman, lawyer, and possibly other stuff that we're finding out.
Secretary of Mike Pompeio. How are you doing, Mike, I'm
really good. It's great to be with you. Thanks for
having me on today. So tell me a little bit
about your story. I know you grew up in California,
but then you ended up in Kansas and got into politics.
(00:44):
Tell me a little bit about that. A little bit
of a long trip, but that the departure from California
was to go to West Point. So I graduated from
there four years later and then was in the army
for five years. Uh then went to law school, practice
law for a bitten ended up back in Kansas as
an entrepreneur, starting a company with three of my best
friends in the whole world, fellow classmates in mind from
West Point. We we bought a machine shop on the
(01:05):
north end of Wichita, Kansas, and ran that business for
a whole handful of years. So I consider myself a
manufacturing guy more than more than anything else, frankly, an entrepreneur.
And politics isn't that kind of unusual, right? Politicians usually
aren't very good at money, are They had two good
and two good opportunities. I ran that business and then
we sold it, and then I was asked to run
(01:26):
another company kind of the same thing in the oil
and gas industry, making stuff, making drilling or repairs and
tools and downhold equipment in the like. Lots of fun.
So tell me about your experience in politics. So I
know you rose to become a congressman in Kansas, which
of course had become your home. Tell me about that experience.
So that was the first time I ran for public
(01:46):
elected office. The the only thing I'd actually run for
before was that to be the member of my homeowners
association board when I was unhappy about shakes, shingles or
something like that. I can't remember exactly Uh. And then
I've involved a little bit in Republican politics back home
and been involved in the Republican Party as well. But
in two thousand nine, I was watching what it was happening,
(02:09):
and I didn't like the direction of the country was
being taken by President Obama. Decided I would take a
shot at running for Congress, and was blessed enough to
get elected. So you rose pretty prominently because from there
you and the administration. Of course, became the director of
the CIA, and you lasted the whole administration, which essentially,
you know, somewhat unusual. Yes, there were there was. There
(02:32):
was a little bit of turnover, no doubt about it.
So tell me about your time at the CIA. Oh
my god. It's a big complex. Yeah, yeah, a great,
a great opportunity. Uh So I was on the Intelligence
Committee in the House, so I added a little exposure
to the CIA, but I've never obviously known it like
I came to know it when I was the director.
(02:53):
It's uh, it's a place that provides this absolutely pristine,
critical information to the commander in chief, is bellow cabinet members,
so that they can have the best information in the
world when they're trying to make really hard decisions around
the world, and the workforce is fantastic. It It ranges
from people who do analysis to people who are actually
(03:13):
out doing espionage operations, to engineers and technicians, very capable
signals people. The skill sets we have economists that the
skill sets are very broad, and there are some of
America's brightest, most talented people working in a clandestine setting.
And you know all seen in the movies. Uh they
don't they don't quite have it right, but the work
(03:34):
that is done there is truly remarkable and important to
keeping people safe all across our country. Yeah, we kind
of view the CIA through two lens is like this
black box that we don't know anything about, and also
this you know, people who do bad things, and that's
pretty much the limitation of our understanding, right. Yeah, well,
you know it's the case. Look, every organization has bad apples,
(03:56):
but the CIA is focused on the work we do
pseas we don't that the FBI does the work back
home we were we were about chasing down bad guys
around the world, trying to find and trying to help
the president understand how decision makers and countries all around
the world, both our friends and our adversaries were thinking
about things so that they could make really informed decisions
and have that that real time good information upon which
(04:20):
to make those decisions. So you were kind of an
unknown when you became Secretary of State. I kind of
like remember reading your name and thinking, well, I know
who he is. I remember him from being from Congress
and obviously you know the CIA obviously. But how how
was that, you know, flying being the face of America abroad?
What was it? Like? My goodness, it was it's uh
(04:42):
is it was amazing. I can't tell you how much
people want to see when you're Emmeriss America's secretary of State.
So wherever you fly, right that plane lands and they
want you to come see their leader, the prime minister,
the president, that your counterpart, the foreign secretary. And it
was because of Mike. It was never they didn't want
to see Mike. They wanted to see America's secretary state
(05:04):
because America's secretary state can do an awful lot of
good for them and if they can develop a relationship
or make a persuasive argument and convince America to assist them,
that it's much to the benefit of their country. And
we are so so big so powerful and and frankly
such a force for good throughout the world that I
it's quite a privilege to be the the embodiment of
(05:26):
that history of the administration trying to deliver for for them,
knowing full well the mission was always America first, getting
it right, take care of our people at home, and
then let's find friends and partners to help deliver on that.
It was it was. It was the privilege of a lifetime,
for sure. So I had a friend who worked for you,
so I was following it. Her name's Morgan. Obviously you
know who that is. And you know, Uh, one of
(05:49):
the things I was shocked by. You know, you're, of
course senior to Pompeo. You know your Italian I can
tell uh. You said one time that America is not
a multicultural country. What did you mean by that? And
did we get that wrong in the quotations, because I know,
you know, can you explain that more? I can't. Of course,
we have be well from all over the place, right.
I love my Italian heritage. On my mother's side, she
(06:12):
was from Europe. We loved that too. People come from
all different backgrounds. Uh, this is this is lovely and wonderful.
But America has always had this special thing about it,
and our founders knew it. And when they busted away
from the Brits now coming up on our anniversary from
seventeen seventy six, in a few days, they knew that
there was something really unique about being American. But this
(06:36):
quintessential set of understandings that they gave us this document, right,
they started it with a declaration of independence, and they
built out a framework called the Constitution. They built this republic.
And so whoever you are and from wherever you come,
whether you were an indigenous person that was here originally
or you just arrived yesterday and came through our system,
and you got a chance as I did, to be
(06:59):
I got just swearing people to become new citizens in America.
No no matter where it's from, you have this incredible privilege,
and people want to be here. And that's what I meant.
That's what I meant. We we need to have the
unity surrounded about understanding about America as a as a
noble nation, a good country, one that takes care of
its people. And we have fights, we have different political
(07:20):
views inside of our country, but in the end of
the day, we're all Americans, and we need to have
that at first and foremost in our minds as we
think about not only how we raise our families, but
how we represent ourselves and find our place in the
world as well. That's not the answer I expected, because
you know, especially through the image we have a view
through media. I expected something harsher and more brought. I
(07:43):
don't know what to tell you. This is so amata
I think about our nation. So Secretary Pompeo, I wanted
to ask you about what hop in or what exactly
the events were that led up to you getting banned
(08:04):
from mainland China, Hong Kong and Macau. Can you tell
us a little bit about that. So it's a it's
very it's it's quite something. They did the sanction within
just a couple of minutes of the time that we
had left office, right after the uh swearing in of
President Biden. You'll you'll get a kick out of this.
My my son is engaged to a young lady named
Rachel's was a delightful woman, and she called me really
(08:25):
quickly and said, Mr Pompeo, and I'm marrying into the
sanctions regime. I said, yes, it's me and my family.
So perhaps you are, but it'll be it'll be fantastic. Well,
I'll be fine. Look, we had begun for the first
time to challenge the Chinese Communist Party. It's doing so
many bad things around the world. Forget its own political system,
(08:49):
it's communist political system. But there they've got a million people,
mostly Muslim people, in the western part of their country
held in internment camps. I mean, that's just that doesn't happen.
So we had claried, I had declared that this was
genocidal and was ongoing. We've began to confront them when
they were engaged in activity around the world where they
were using money to extort political favors for themselves what
(09:13):
you could call a bribery, but it's it's on a
grander scale than that, And so they weren't happy about this.
We were confronting them, we were imposing real costs on them.
We we've also seen that they continue to refuse to
tell anybody how the heck this virus got out of
Wuhan and we had millions of people dead, billions and
billions of dollars lost. America is still trying to recover
(09:34):
as our countries all around the world, and the Chinese
Communist Party continues to cover up what actually happened. Uh,
they're still operating the viral lab that I think it's
most likely where this originated. We have to know that
this isn't gonna happen again. So we were working hard
on those things. They didn't like it, and they decided
to sanction me to send a message, frankly, I think
mostly to the Biden administration that says, you may be
(09:56):
in government service now, but someday you won't, and when
you aren't, if you would like to do business with us,
you should know you should be very careful. I think
that's a dangerous message to send. And I'm confident that
the My administration will still do the right thing and
make sure that we protect America from the threat from
the CCP. So why hasn't more been done? And I'm
not specifically just speaking to the Trump administration, but also Obama, Bush, Clinton,
(10:21):
going all the way back to Nixon. Why have we
developed this dependency on China and we give them our
money and we until the Trump administration. Admittedly, say what
you want about the Trump administration, the tone on China
was generally permissive, like here's our money, do whatever you want. Yeah,
that is certainly true. And uh, it is your point,
(10:43):
what very well taken. This isn't republican or democrat. This
was u S policy for since roughly nineteen seventy two,
when Nixon and Kissinger went to China, was that this
was a developing country, and if we just engage with
them more, they'll leave us alone. What days in Beijing
will stay in Beijing. And you know, for thirty forty
years that might well have made sense. But for a
couple of decades now we should have known better. We
(11:04):
could see them become explicitive, we could see them become expansionary.
We could see them start to try and force their
way on us, and for a lot of reasons, most
of them economic. Right, we have a lot of folks
making a lot of money, their businesses growing because of
their connectivity China. They have a market of one point
four billion people, an important market for US businesses. For
(11:26):
for those reasons, we just turned the other cheek. We'd
see them do something and we would give them an exception.
And President Trump made clear that was that was enough.
We've got to fix this. They mean they stole tens
of millions of American jobs by just literally stealing intellectual
property from the United States. Some creative engineers, some talented writers,
some some person who was doing great coding, and they
(11:49):
just come and steal it for themselves after we've invested
our money. And then they build the product there and
they dump it back on our country. This this is crazy. No, no,
no rational nation would permit this to continue. And yet uh,
it was awfully lucrative to look the other way. And
President Trump said enough and we began to write the ship.
The good news is not only did we do it,
but we convinced lots of others around the world who
(12:11):
were suffering the same darned thing from the CCP, and
they're all started down this path that the West. Those
of us who believe in like logic and thought and
reason uh right and good governance. Uh. I think all
of us can now see that we slept on this
for a couple of decades too long and are beginning
to write the ship. And this will be a good thing,
and will not only be good frankly for those of
(12:32):
us in the West. When I say the West, that's
the West is an idea here, but rule of law,
property rights, human rights. Uh, those of us in the West.
Doing this will actually benefit the Chinese people too. There
are there are one point two billion Chinese people who
aren't part of the Chinese Communist Party. Uh, and we
love them. We want them to be successful and prospers
(12:54):
to and if we get this right, their lives will
be better off as well. So why didn't even the
Trump administration Because I can't just sit here and give
you a free pass. I know the Trump administration changed
the tone on everything, but we're tariffs really the best answer.
I mean, in the end, US consumers paid that. So, like,
I know, the narrative change, Secretary, but it's more like
(13:14):
this is like, shouldn't we have convened the business community
and been like, hey, like, we've got to diversify your
supply chains like now, So we did, but I will
concede there is a lot of work left undone that
we didn't get to that there's a long way to
go to to address this problem. Said, That's why I'm
so hopeful this doesn't become partisan. This can't be part
of This is about America, out about Trump or Biden
(13:36):
or anything else. This isn't about politics. This is about
getting a right and protecting our country. No, we left
a lot still to do. You know, on tariffs, it's
a very difficult problems that tariffs are imperfect. But boy,
when you are trying to write the ship and get
reciprocal trade, all we ever wanted was saying, if we
sell you a widget and you're gonna you're gonna put
three percent tariff on, don't you show us the widget back.
(13:58):
It should be three were or zero. If you want nine,
team will do nineteen. But they have reciprocity in the
trade relationship. Makes an enormous amount of sense. Uh. And
so we were working our way towards getting there. But
you know, we did a lot of other things with
the business community. I assure you we convened to them.
Some of them didn't like what we were peddling. They
(14:18):
wanted to keep making money there. But I think they
all came to realize the enormous political risk when they
saw the virus and they saw our supply chains get
honked up. I mean, when the Chinese Communist Party tells
an American company that's doing business in China and it's
making products under a contract with an American company, says no,
you can't ship that product. So an American company wants
(14:39):
to ship in a product back to America to keep
Americans alive, and the Chinese companist party says no, you
can't ship that. Today, I think the game, I mean,
it's pretty apparent right this makes it's not really fully
an American business. Its subject to the whims of the
communists in China. So we began to raise awareness and
so you'll see supply chains start to move at these
(15:00):
these things. I'll take time. You'll you'll see companies make
different choices about how they produce their product and services.
And I'm hopeful the Biden administration has actually done good
work so far on this. UM. I applaud them for
keeping up the good work we did on how on Taiwan,
and the good work we were doing on Hong Kongo's
or good things. And if we can begin to get
(15:21):
this thing ahead in the right direction over the course
of the next five or ten years, we'll be in
an awful lot better place than we find ourselves today.
Wait wait, wait, wait, stop the presses. You applaud the
Biden administration, Is that even something you're allowed to say
in this political environment? Secretary. Oh my gosh, it's for me.
Like I'm as a conservative Republican as you'll find, I
(15:42):
believe in in the central tenants of what the Republican
Party does. But I want good things for America, and
so yes, when when they get it right, when I
think they've they've got the right end of the stick,
we should all applaud, we should encourage them, and to
the extent they're seeking our help, we should help them.
This is this is what makes America so special and
so great. And by the way, when they have it wrong,
I feel like I have an obligation to say, don't
(16:02):
I think you have that wrong? Uh? And you know
that's that's what I've done for these four sundred fifty days.
That's that's what I'll keep doing. So tell me a
little bit about you know, partisan politics these days. It
(16:22):
seems like you don't hear a lot of what I'm
hearing out of you right now, which is, you know,
the other side has some stuff, right. You know I'm
not from that side, but you know it's they're doing
some good work, right. Yeah. But these are two there two,
there's no doubt there are. There are two deep divisions.
And how the parties. Think about the world. You've seen
inside the parties, there's fractures to right. Inside the Democratic Party,
(16:45):
there's a big, bold left progressive ring, and then there's
folks like Senator Mansion who are less that way. At
the same is true inside of my party. Uh. We
we should know that these fact that the founders called
them factions, but we should know they have existed for
an awfully long time and they'll continue to exist. And
I hear people say, boy, the rhetoric is really heated today.
(17:06):
Go back and read what they were saying about each
other in the seventeen eighties and seventeen nineties and during
the Civil War, Man pretty tame, uh, to be honest
with you, And so these debates ought to be had.
I can absolutely articulate a vision for how I see
America moving forward that would be rounded firmly in the
conservative ideas that I think have served our country so well.
(17:30):
But I'm happy if there's a better idea and it
comes from some other place, from the more centrist part
of my party or from the Democrat Party. That's about
getting it right. And uh, we should be fearless and
speaking about this. We should allow every voice to be heard.
We shouldn't cancel anyone, and we should each make our
case and then convince the American people that were right.
(17:50):
And when we are elected, whether it's a city council
or school board seat, when we are elected, make sure
that we deliver on the promises that we've If we
turned out to be wrong, the American people will see
that quickly and they'll reject it. They'll move another direction.
So is there room for diversity of thought in the
Republican Party or is there room for gay people, brown people?
(18:11):
All these things tell me more about that. Absolutely there
there's is a big tent has been for an awfully
long time. I can't imagine if moving in any other direction. Um,
I have good friends in the party who are gay.
I have good friends at the party or African American.
I just today, for example, as a perfect timely example,
today I announced I'm sporting Senator Jim Scott from South Carolina.
(18:35):
Soon I came to Congress with Becky in two thousand
and two thousand and eleven African Americans elected from the South,
an amazing talented leader and just a good human being. Yeah,
this party is plenty big. It's plenty big. For people
all over. Our party is a party of ideas. We
have a we have a view of the way the
founders intended our country to move forward, and the things
(18:56):
that help our family and protect people's religious read them.
Those are things I care about an awful lot, and
I'd welcome everyone inside who thinks about America in the
same way. But the Republicans gotta have a pr problem,
especially among young people. I'm sure you're a normal human.
You have a family, right, I'm sure you have some kids.
I think you have one son, right, he's thirty years old. Yeah, okay,
(19:19):
so he's fairly young. Right. I'm sure his friends, you know,
go oh, I know who your dad is, Like, you know,
like like it seems like the Republicans aren't cool. It's
not cool to be Republican these days. Yeah, that could be.
I don't know. He also has friends to say, can
you get my dad's out of your dad's autograph forma?
It's true, there there's a little of each. Uh. Look,
(19:43):
it's two thoughts. One, it's it's often been the case
that people tend to be more progressive, more liberal when
they're younger, and they get a little bit older and
see a little bit more of the world that they
moved to the right that that's been the case for
at least the last modern are the post World War
two air But second um, I for one, and I
hope all of my Republican friends will be relentless in
(20:05):
addressing the things that matter to the next generation and
addressing the things that are going to give them the
chance to to live their life the way they want to,
to raise their family the way they want to whatever
whatever that may be. I hope that's the case. And
you know, if if we've got to figure out a
different way to market, that, so be it. But I
think these ideas resonate with people of of every background,
(20:26):
in every age. And I hope that the ears will
be open and that the the schools and universities will
continue to let us come speak and talk, and then
they'll bring in somebody who disagrees with us, so that
young people get a chance to hear um every thought
and every idea and form their own judgments in a
way that is intellectual and uh not based on some
(20:46):
legacy idea that maybe upomoted or unfit. So how about
that and deficits we seem to be running the federal
government deep into the red and it seems to be
a bipartisan issues these days. What are your thoughts on
that it is it's tragically bipartisan. I agree with you. Uh,
like that's a difficult problem. Uh for sure, But neither
(21:07):
party has taken seriously the responsibile to make sure that
we know those same young people you were just talking about,
we've got to make sure they can still live in
the same America. And I would always tell Nick when
he was younger. I would say, Nick, I'm fine, My
sole security check is gonna clear. Yours may not. We
gotta get our act together. Uh. It is awful easy
to spend other people's money and difficult and takes real
(21:30):
political leadership to make the case for why certain things
have to change and why we can't spend as much
as we I hope, I hope both parties will find
a way to take this more seriously. So tell me
a little bit about your plans before you leave me,
because I know, as as always, you have your busy
calendar and your assistants gonna start hating me if I don't.
You know, Uh, no worries. So I'm working really hard
(21:54):
to help candidates get elected in two good conservative people
from all across the country. I was in California this
weekend and in Texas, UM swinging back out too. I
think Wisconsin and Pennsylvania next week. Uh, doing the same thing,
helping folks get elected. I'm also trying to find a
way to become an entrepreneur again. Start a couple of
little projects. I have a couple of those in the
(22:15):
works as well, and I really really love that is
something I'll always enjoyed. Uh. And then I've got a
project I'm working on religious freedom as well, doing some
writing there. Those those three things keep me plenty busy,
I'm sure. So no plans as of Yeah, what do
you see landscape looking like? Oh my gosh. If you'd
asked me in in seventeen what i'd be doing out
(22:39):
and said, well, I'm gonna be a member of Congress
for two more years, and I ended up having two
great gigs. I have no earthly idea what it will
look like. No, no presidential plans as of yet, because
it seems like you have the pitch down good and
I'm gonna stay in the final I'll be working on
this project somewhere. These these ideas are timeless, and it's
really important that we get them right. So I don't know,
(23:00):
it's hard to know where the Lord will put me,
but we're gonna keep working at it. Well, we appreciate
your time, Secretary of Pompeio, and all the best in
your pursuits the Big three right now, especially entrepreneurship that
the lifeblood of this country. And you always have to remember,
without that entrepreneurs none of this is possible. Things happen
if we're not creating. Well, bless you have a good day.
(23:20):
Thank you, You bet so long. So this was definitely
not the interview that I expected from the former Secretary
of State in a few ways. Primarily the first way
was that, you know, he fundamentally praised the Abiden administration
for their work on China. And this is something that
(23:42):
I think needs to be noticed by people both on
the left and the right, is that the narrative has
permanently changed on China. For far too long, everyone's ignored
China like, oh, it's just there. You know, they make
our stuff, it's cheap, Like they'll they'll eventually become democratic,
you know, if we give them enough money and if
(24:02):
you know, we educate their youth and if we trade
with them, and they'll eventually become like the rest of
the world. Right, So, say what you want about the
Trump administration, but the narrative on China is fundamentally changed
and it's permanent, and no matter who's in charge, now,
we're gonna look at China in a different light. And
every day we get more and more news from people
who defect, you know, leaks coming out of mainland China
(24:26):
that things aren't good. And the big canary in the
coal mine, you know, if you don't know that saying
it's you know, they would bring a canary down into
the mine, and if the canary died, you know, there
was toxic gas in the mind. Well for thus that
was really Hong Kong, right. Hong Kong was a liberal democracy,
not politically liberal in the sense that it was had
elected leaders in an independent judiciary and was basically a
(24:50):
Western city. And once the British gave it back, slowly
but surely, the Communists have turned it into a city
that resembles the rest of China. So we we have
to give credit where credit is due, and specifically to
Mike Pompeo, who is now banned from China. You know,
congrats on changing the narrative. And also, we don't know
(25:11):
what your political career is going to be, but we
wish you well in your pursuits. And I'd like to
hear more of this bipartisan dialogue. I'd like to hear
more about how sometimes the other side has the right
answers and to give credit where credit is due. The
Biden administration is pursuing a lot of the same things
as the Trump administration pursuit and you probably won't hear
(25:33):
that on liberal or conservative media outlets, but it's something
you should be hearing about. China is a threat to
the United States, as is Russia, and we need to
recalibrate our commerce and our trade policy and our diplomacy
to reflect that reality. And that was pioneered by the
Trump administration. The Bush and Obama administrations unfortunately ignored the problem.
(25:57):
And going forward, we need more people like Secretary Pompeio
to stand up and say, hey, this is good, keep
on doing it, because we're going in the right direction
and reality is reality. No matter how cheap our products
are from China, we are funding the rise of someone
who is not only a rival, but a threat to
(26:18):
our future, and not just America's future, but the rest
of the world, because China has their fingers in every
single pie around the world, and they're playing the long
game and they're playing the smart game. Well we sit
here and argue about, you know, silliness. They're focused on
building a sustainable economy and a sustainable future for their people,
(26:40):
and you know, obviously China has its problems. You can't
build a civilization based on copying other countries, and I
don't know how sustainable their model is environmentally or socially.
But in the meantime, we need to really confront the
problem and that starts with the that Secretary Pompeios said,
(27:02):
which is recognizing reality, understanding that we can't continue doing
things the way we've been doing them and sticking our
head in the sand. So that was what really stuck
out to me about Mike Pompeios talked with me. It
was really his talk on China, and you know, it's
it's cute because you know, Secretary Pompeio is a real person.
(27:23):
His relationship with his son is something I mentioned and
it's something that you read about a lot. His son
is very special to him and his son's adopted, but
they've you know, developed a very close relationship. And when
his son got engaged, you know that the fiance said,
are you are you the sanctioned family by marrying into
a sanctioned family? You know. Secretary Pompeio is a real person.
(27:45):
You know, he lives in Kansas. He has to make
money like the rest of us. But for a while
there he was the face of America. And no matter
whether you're left or right, that's the ceremony and the
pomp and circumstance, no pun intended. It's something for the
history books. And no matter what you think, America is
(28:06):
still the leader in this world for now. And he
was the leader, at least the face of the free world,
not the leader that would be the president. So it
was an honor to have him on the podcast. In
the same way, I would extend the same invitation to
Anthony B. Lincoln, who is our current Secretary of State.
Probably a little busy for the podcast, but in the meantime,
stay tuned to so many more good interviews like this
(28:28):
and conversations about bipartisanship, about the need for entrepreneurship, and
about the need for a reality check without all the
talking points. I'm David Grasso, So thanks to all of
you for joining me as we Follow the Prophet, and
a big thanks to our producers Cheyenne Read, Scott Handler,
and of course to our executive producer's Knu gang Rich
(28:50):
and Debbie Myers. I'm David Grasso. If you're enjoying this
show as much as i am, give us five stars
and give us a review. We read those and take
your feedback in mind. Follow the Prophet is a production
of Gingwich three sixty and I Heart Radio. For more
podcasts for my heart Radio, visit the i Heart Radio app,
Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. Part of
(29:14):
the Gingwich three network
Time as a conservative Republican, as you'll find, but I
want good things for America. When they get it right,
we should all applaud, we should encourage them, and to
the extent they're seeking our help, we should help them.
By the way, when they have it wrong, I feel
like I have an obligation to said no, I think
you have that wrong. So I'd like to welcome this
(00:22):
week a very special guest. He's a former Secretary of
State and of course the former director of the CIA,
a congressman, lawyer, and possibly other stuff that we're finding out.
Secretary of Mike Pompeio. How are you doing, Mike, I'm
really good. It's great to be with you. Thanks for
having me on today. So tell me a little bit
about your story. I know you grew up in California,
but then you ended up in Kansas and got into politics.
(00:44):
Tell me a little bit about that. A little bit
of a long trip, but that the departure from California
was to go to West Point. So I graduated from
there four years later and then was in the army
for five years. Uh then went to law school, practice
law for a bitten ended up back in Kansas as
an entrepreneur, starting a company with three of my best
friends in the whole world, fellow classmates in mind from
West Point. We we bought a machine shop on the
(01:05):
north end of Wichita, Kansas, and ran that business for
a whole handful of years. So I consider myself a
manufacturing guy more than more than anything else, frankly, an entrepreneur.
And politics isn't that kind of unusual, right? Politicians usually
aren't very good at money, are They had two good
and two good opportunities. I ran that business and then
we sold it, and then I was asked to run
(01:26):
another company kind of the same thing in the oil
and gas industry, making stuff, making drilling or repairs and
tools and downhold equipment in the like. Lots of fun.
So tell me about your experience in politics. So I
know you rose to become a congressman in Kansas, which
of course had become your home. Tell me about that experience.
So that was the first time I ran for public
(01:46):
elected office. The the only thing I'd actually run for
before was that to be the member of my homeowners
association board when I was unhappy about shakes, shingles or
something like that. I can't remember exactly Uh. And then
I've involved a little bit in Republican politics back home
and been involved in the Republican Party as well. But
in two thousand nine, I was watching what it was happening,
(02:09):
and I didn't like the direction of the country was
being taken by President Obama. Decided I would take a
shot at running for Congress, and was blessed enough to
get elected. So you rose pretty prominently because from there
you and the administration. Of course, became the director of
the CIA, and you lasted the whole administration, which essentially,
you know, somewhat unusual. Yes, there were there was. There
(02:32):
was a little bit of turnover, no doubt about it.
So tell me about your time at the CIA. Oh
my god. It's a big complex. Yeah, yeah, a great,
a great opportunity. Uh So I was on the Intelligence
Committee in the House, so I added a little exposure
to the CIA, but I've never obviously known it like
I came to know it when I was the director.
(02:53):
It's uh, it's a place that provides this absolutely pristine,
critical information to the commander in chief, is bellow cabinet members,
so that they can have the best information in the
world when they're trying to make really hard decisions around
the world, and the workforce is fantastic. It It ranges
from people who do analysis to people who are actually
(03:13):
out doing espionage operations, to engineers and technicians, very capable
signals people. The skill sets we have economists that the
skill sets are very broad, and there are some of
America's brightest, most talented people working in a clandestine setting.
And you know all seen in the movies. Uh they
don't they don't quite have it right, but the work
(03:34):
that is done there is truly remarkable and important to
keeping people safe all across our country. Yeah, we kind
of view the CIA through two lens is like this
black box that we don't know anything about, and also
this you know, people who do bad things, and that's
pretty much the limitation of our understanding, right. Yeah, well,
you know it's the case. Look, every organization has bad apples,
(03:56):
but the CIA is focused on the work we do
pseas we don't that the FBI does the work back
home we were we were about chasing down bad guys
around the world, trying to find and trying to help
the president understand how decision makers and countries all around
the world, both our friends and our adversaries were thinking
about things so that they could make really informed decisions
and have that that real time good information upon which
(04:20):
to make those decisions. So you were kind of an
unknown when you became Secretary of State. I kind of
like remember reading your name and thinking, well, I know
who he is. I remember him from being from Congress
and obviously you know the CIA obviously. But how how
was that, you know, flying being the face of America abroad?
What was it? Like? My goodness, it was it's uh
(04:42):
is it was amazing. I can't tell you how much
people want to see when you're Emmeriss America's secretary of State.
So wherever you fly, right that plane lands and they
want you to come see their leader, the prime minister,
the president, that your counterpart, the foreign secretary. And it
was because of Mike. It was never they didn't want
to see Mike. They wanted to see America's secretary state
(05:04):
because America's secretary state can do an awful lot of
good for them and if they can develop a relationship
or make a persuasive argument and convince America to assist them,
that it's much to the benefit of their country. And
we are so so big so powerful and and frankly
such a force for good throughout the world that I
it's quite a privilege to be the the embodiment of
(05:26):
that history of the administration trying to deliver for for them,
knowing full well the mission was always America first, getting
it right, take care of our people at home, and
then let's find friends and partners to help deliver on that.
It was it was. It was the privilege of a lifetime,
for sure. So I had a friend who worked for you,
so I was following it. Her name's Morgan. Obviously you
know who that is. And you know, Uh, one of
(05:49):
the things I was shocked by. You know, you're, of
course senior to Pompeo. You know your Italian I can
tell uh. You said one time that America is not
a multicultural country. What did you mean by that? And
did we get that wrong in the quotations, because I know,
you know, can you explain that more? I can't. Of course,
we have be well from all over the place, right.
I love my Italian heritage. On my mother's side, she
(06:12):
was from Europe. We loved that too. People come from
all different backgrounds. Uh, this is this is lovely and wonderful.
But America has always had this special thing about it,
and our founders knew it. And when they busted away
from the Brits now coming up on our anniversary from
seventeen seventy six, in a few days, they knew that
there was something really unique about being American. But this
(06:36):
quintessential set of understandings that they gave us this document, right,
they started it with a declaration of independence, and they
built out a framework called the Constitution. They built this republic.
And so whoever you are and from wherever you come,
whether you were an indigenous person that was here originally
or you just arrived yesterday and came through our system,
and you got a chance as I did, to be
(06:59):
I got just swearing people to become new citizens in America.
No no matter where it's from, you have this incredible privilege,
and people want to be here. And that's what I meant.
That's what I meant. We we need to have the
unity surrounded about understanding about America as a as a
noble nation, a good country, one that takes care of
its people. And we have fights, we have different political
(07:20):
views inside of our country, but in the end of
the day, we're all Americans, and we need to have
that at first and foremost in our minds as we
think about not only how we raise our families, but
how we represent ourselves and find our place in the
world as well. That's not the answer I expected, because
you know, especially through the image we have a view
through media. I expected something harsher and more brought. I
(07:43):
don't know what to tell you. This is so amata
I think about our nation. So Secretary Pompeo, I wanted
to ask you about what hop in or what exactly
the events were that led up to you getting banned
(08:04):
from mainland China, Hong Kong and Macau. Can you tell
us a little bit about that. So it's a it's
very it's it's quite something. They did the sanction within
just a couple of minutes of the time that we
had left office, right after the uh swearing in of
President Biden. You'll you'll get a kick out of this.
My my son is engaged to a young lady named
Rachel's was a delightful woman, and she called me really
(08:25):
quickly and said, Mr Pompeo, and I'm marrying into the
sanctions regime. I said, yes, it's me and my family.
So perhaps you are, but it'll be it'll be fantastic. Well,
I'll be fine. Look, we had begun for the first
time to challenge the Chinese Communist Party. It's doing so
many bad things around the world. Forget its own political system,
(08:49):
it's communist political system. But there they've got a million people,
mostly Muslim people, in the western part of their country
held in internment camps. I mean, that's just that doesn't happen.
So we had claried, I had declared that this was
genocidal and was ongoing. We've began to confront them when
they were engaged in activity around the world where they
were using money to extort political favors for themselves what
(09:13):
you could call a bribery, but it's it's on a
grander scale than that, And so they weren't happy about this.
We were confronting them, we were imposing real costs on them.
We we've also seen that they continue to refuse to
tell anybody how the heck this virus got out of
Wuhan and we had millions of people dead, billions and
billions of dollars lost. America is still trying to recover
(09:34):
as our countries all around the world, and the Chinese
Communist Party continues to cover up what actually happened. Uh,
they're still operating the viral lab that I think it's
most likely where this originated. We have to know that
this isn't gonna happen again. So we were working hard
on those things. They didn't like it, and they decided
to sanction me to send a message, frankly, I think
mostly to the Biden administration that says, you may be
(09:56):
in government service now, but someday you won't, and when
you aren't, if you would like to do business with us,
you should know you should be very careful. I think
that's a dangerous message to send. And I'm confident that
the My administration will still do the right thing and
make sure that we protect America from the threat from
the CCP. So why hasn't more been done? And I'm
not specifically just speaking to the Trump administration, but also Obama, Bush, Clinton,
(10:21):
going all the way back to Nixon. Why have we
developed this dependency on China and we give them our
money and we until the Trump administration. Admittedly, say what
you want about the Trump administration, the tone on China
was generally permissive, like here's our money, do whatever you want. Yeah,
that is certainly true. And uh, it is your point,
(10:43):
what very well taken. This isn't republican or democrat. This
was u S policy for since roughly nineteen seventy two,
when Nixon and Kissinger went to China, was that this
was a developing country, and if we just engage with
them more, they'll leave us alone. What days in Beijing
will stay in Beijing. And you know, for thirty forty
years that might well have made sense. But for a
couple of decades now we should have known better. We
(11:04):
could see them become explicitive, we could see them become expansionary.
We could see them start to try and force their
way on us, and for a lot of reasons, most
of them economic. Right, we have a lot of folks
making a lot of money, their businesses growing because of
their connectivity China. They have a market of one point
four billion people, an important market for US businesses. For
(11:26):
for those reasons, we just turned the other cheek. We'd
see them do something and we would give them an exception.
And President Trump made clear that was that was enough.
We've got to fix this. They mean they stole tens
of millions of American jobs by just literally stealing intellectual
property from the United States. Some creative engineers, some talented writers,
some some person who was doing great coding, and they
(11:49):
just come and steal it for themselves after we've invested
our money. And then they build the product there and
they dump it back on our country. This this is crazy. No, no,
no rational nation would permit this to continue. And yet uh,
it was awfully lucrative to look the other way. And
President Trump said enough and we began to write the ship.
The good news is not only did we do it,
but we convinced lots of others around the world who
(12:11):
were suffering the same darned thing from the CCP, and
they're all started down this path that the West. Those
of us who believe in like logic and thought and
reason uh right and good governance. Uh. I think all
of us can now see that we slept on this
for a couple of decades too long and are beginning
to write the ship. And this will be a good thing,
and will not only be good frankly for those of
(12:32):
us in the West. When I say the West, that's
the West is an idea here, but rule of law,
property rights, human rights. Uh, those of us in the West.
Doing this will actually benefit the Chinese people too. There
are there are one point two billion Chinese people who
aren't part of the Chinese Communist Party. Uh, and we
love them. We want them to be successful and prospers
(12:54):
to and if we get this right, their lives will
be better off as well. So why didn't even the
Trump administration Because I can't just sit here and give
you a free pass. I know the Trump administration changed
the tone on everything, but we're tariffs really the best answer.
I mean, in the end, US consumers paid that. So, like,
I know, the narrative change, Secretary, but it's more like
(13:14):
this is like, shouldn't we have convened the business community
and been like, hey, like, we've got to diversify your
supply chains like now, So we did, but I will
concede there is a lot of work left undone that
we didn't get to that there's a long way to
go to to address this problem. Said, That's why I'm
so hopeful this doesn't become partisan. This can't be part
of This is about America, out about Trump or Biden
(13:36):
or anything else. This isn't about politics. This is about
getting a right and protecting our country. No, we left
a lot still to do. You know, on tariffs, it's
a very difficult problems that tariffs are imperfect. But boy,
when you are trying to write the ship and get
reciprocal trade, all we ever wanted was saying, if we
sell you a widget and you're gonna you're gonna put
three percent tariff on, don't you show us the widget back.
(13:58):
It should be three were or zero. If you want nine,
team will do nineteen. But they have reciprocity in the
trade relationship. Makes an enormous amount of sense. Uh. And
so we were working our way towards getting there. But
you know, we did a lot of other things with
the business community. I assure you we convened to them.
Some of them didn't like what we were peddling. They
(14:18):
wanted to keep making money there. But I think they
all came to realize the enormous political risk when they
saw the virus and they saw our supply chains get
honked up. I mean, when the Chinese Communist Party tells
an American company that's doing business in China and it's
making products under a contract with an American company, says no,
you can't ship that product. So an American company wants
(14:39):
to ship in a product back to America to keep
Americans alive, and the Chinese companist party says no, you
can't ship that. Today, I think the game, I mean,
it's pretty apparent right this makes it's not really fully
an American business. Its subject to the whims of the
communists in China. So we began to raise awareness and
so you'll see supply chains start to move at these
(15:00):
these things. I'll take time. You'll you'll see companies make
different choices about how they produce their product and services.
And I'm hopeful the Biden administration has actually done good
work so far on this. UM. I applaud them for
keeping up the good work we did on how on Taiwan,
and the good work we were doing on Hong Kongo's
or good things. And if we can begin to get
(15:21):
this thing ahead in the right direction over the course
of the next five or ten years, we'll be in
an awful lot better place than we find ourselves today.
Wait wait, wait, wait, stop the presses. You applaud the
Biden administration, Is that even something you're allowed to say
in this political environment? Secretary. Oh my gosh, it's for me.
Like I'm as a conservative Republican as you'll find, I
(15:42):
believe in in the central tenants of what the Republican
Party does. But I want good things for America, and
so yes, when when they get it right, when I
think they've they've got the right end of the stick,
we should all applaud, we should encourage them, and to
the extent they're seeking our help, we should help them.
This is this is what makes America so special and
so great. And by the way, when they have it wrong,
I feel like I have an obligation to say, don't
(16:02):
I think you have that wrong? Uh? And you know
that's that's what I've done for these four sundred fifty days.
That's that's what I'll keep doing. So tell me a
little bit about you know, partisan politics these days. It
(16:22):
seems like you don't hear a lot of what I'm
hearing out of you right now, which is, you know,
the other side has some stuff, right. You know I'm
not from that side, but you know it's they're doing
some good work, right. Yeah. But these are two there two,
there's no doubt there are. There are two deep divisions.
And how the parties. Think about the world. You've seen
inside the parties, there's fractures to right. Inside the Democratic Party,
(16:45):
there's a big, bold left progressive ring, and then there's
folks like Senator Mansion who are less that way. At
the same is true inside of my party. Uh. We
we should know that these fact that the founders called
them factions, but we should know they have existed for
an awfully long time and they'll continue to exist. And
I hear people say, boy, the rhetoric is really heated today.
(17:06):
Go back and read what they were saying about each
other in the seventeen eighties and seventeen nineties and during
the Civil War, Man pretty tame, uh, to be honest
with you, And so these debates ought to be had.
I can absolutely articulate a vision for how I see
America moving forward that would be rounded firmly in the
conservative ideas that I think have served our country so well.
(17:30):
But I'm happy if there's a better idea and it
comes from some other place, from the more centrist part
of my party or from the Democrat Party. That's about
getting it right. And uh, we should be fearless and
speaking about this. We should allow every voice to be heard.
We shouldn't cancel anyone, and we should each make our
case and then convince the American people that were right.
(17:50):
And when we are elected, whether it's a city council
or school board seat, when we are elected, make sure
that we deliver on the promises that we've If we
turned out to be wrong, the American people will see
that quickly and they'll reject it. They'll move another direction.
So is there room for diversity of thought in the
Republican Party or is there room for gay people, brown people?
(18:11):
All these things tell me more about that. Absolutely there
there's is a big tent has been for an awfully
long time. I can't imagine if moving in any other direction. Um,
I have good friends in the party who are gay.
I have good friends at the party or African American.
I just today, for example, as a perfect timely example,
today I announced I'm sporting Senator Jim Scott from South Carolina.
(18:35):
Soon I came to Congress with Becky in two thousand
and two thousand and eleven African Americans elected from the South,
an amazing talented leader and just a good human being. Yeah,
this party is plenty big. It's plenty big. For people
all over. Our party is a party of ideas. We
have a we have a view of the way the
founders intended our country to move forward, and the things
(18:56):
that help our family and protect people's religious read them.
Those are things I care about an awful lot, and
I'd welcome everyone inside who thinks about America in the
same way. But the Republicans gotta have a pr problem,
especially among young people. I'm sure you're a normal human.
You have a family, right, I'm sure you have some kids.
I think you have one son, right, he's thirty years old. Yeah, okay,
(19:19):
so he's fairly young. Right. I'm sure his friends, you know,
go oh, I know who your dad is, Like, you know,
like like it seems like the Republicans aren't cool. It's
not cool to be Republican these days. Yeah, that could be.
I don't know. He also has friends to say, can
you get my dad's out of your dad's autograph forma?
It's true, there there's a little of each. Uh. Look,
(19:43):
it's two thoughts. One, it's it's often been the case
that people tend to be more progressive, more liberal when
they're younger, and they get a little bit older and
see a little bit more of the world that they
moved to the right that that's been the case for
at least the last modern are the post World War
two air But second um, I for one, and I
hope all of my Republican friends will be relentless in
(20:05):
addressing the things that matter to the next generation and
addressing the things that are going to give them the
chance to to live their life the way they want to,
to raise their family the way they want to whatever
whatever that may be. I hope that's the case. And
you know, if if we've got to figure out a
different way to market, that, so be it. But I
think these ideas resonate with people of of every background,
(20:26):
in every age. And I hope that the ears will
be open and that the the schools and universities will
continue to let us come speak and talk, and then
they'll bring in somebody who disagrees with us, so that
young people get a chance to hear um every thought
and every idea and form their own judgments in a
way that is intellectual and uh not based on some
(20:46):
legacy idea that maybe upomoted or unfit. So how about
that and deficits we seem to be running the federal
government deep into the red and it seems to be
a bipartisan issues these days. What are your thoughts on
that it is it's tragically bipartisan. I agree with you. Uh,
like that's a difficult problem. Uh for sure, But neither
(21:07):
party has taken seriously the responsibile to make sure that
we know those same young people you were just talking about,
we've got to make sure they can still live in
the same America. And I would always tell Nick when
he was younger. I would say, Nick, I'm fine, My
sole security check is gonna clear. Yours may not. We
gotta get our act together. Uh. It is awful easy
to spend other people's money and difficult and takes real
(21:30):
political leadership to make the case for why certain things
have to change and why we can't spend as much
as we I hope, I hope both parties will find
a way to take this more seriously. So tell me
a little bit about your plans before you leave me,
because I know, as as always, you have your busy
calendar and your assistants gonna start hating me if I don't.
You know, Uh, no worries. So I'm working really hard
(21:54):
to help candidates get elected in two good conservative people
from all across the country. I was in California this
weekend and in Texas, UM swinging back out too. I
think Wisconsin and Pennsylvania next week. Uh, doing the same thing,
helping folks get elected. I'm also trying to find a
way to become an entrepreneur again. Start a couple of
little projects. I have a couple of those in the
(22:15):
works as well, and I really really love that is
something I'll always enjoyed. Uh. And then I've got a
project I'm working on religious freedom as well, doing some
writing there. Those those three things keep me plenty busy,
I'm sure. So no plans as of Yeah, what do
you see landscape looking like? Oh my gosh. If you'd
asked me in in seventeen what i'd be doing out
(22:39):
and said, well, I'm gonna be a member of Congress
for two more years, and I ended up having two
great gigs. I have no earthly idea what it will
look like. No, no presidential plans as of yet, because
it seems like you have the pitch down good and
I'm gonna stay in the final I'll be working on
this project somewhere. These these ideas are timeless, and it's
really important that we get them right. So I don't know,
(23:00):
it's hard to know where the Lord will put me,
but we're gonna keep working at it. Well, we appreciate
your time, Secretary of Pompeio, and all the best in
your pursuits the Big three right now, especially entrepreneurship that
the lifeblood of this country. And you always have to remember,
without that entrepreneurs none of this is possible. Things happen
if we're not creating. Well, bless you have a good day.
(23:20):
Thank you, You bet so long. So this was definitely
not the interview that I expected from the former Secretary
of State in a few ways. Primarily the first way
was that, you know, he fundamentally praised the Abiden administration
for their work on China. And this is something that
(23:42):
I think needs to be noticed by people both on
the left and the right, is that the narrative has
permanently changed on China. For far too long, everyone's ignored
China like, oh, it's just there. You know, they make
our stuff, it's cheap, Like they'll they'll eventually become democratic,
you know, if we give them enough money and if
(24:02):
you know, we educate their youth and if we trade
with them, and they'll eventually become like the rest of
the world. Right, So, say what you want about the
Trump administration, but the narrative on China is fundamentally changed
and it's permanent, and no matter who's in charge, now,
we're gonna look at China in a different light. And
every day we get more and more news from people
who defect, you know, leaks coming out of mainland China
(24:26):
that things aren't good. And the big canary in the
coal mine, you know, if you don't know that saying
it's you know, they would bring a canary down into
the mine, and if the canary died, you know, there
was toxic gas in the mind. Well for thus that
was really Hong Kong, right. Hong Kong was a liberal democracy,
not politically liberal in the sense that it was had
elected leaders in an independent judiciary and was basically a
(24:50):
Western city. And once the British gave it back, slowly
but surely, the Communists have turned it into a city
that resembles the rest of China. So we we have
to give credit where credit is due, and specifically to
Mike Pompeo, who is now banned from China. You know,
congrats on changing the narrative. And also, we don't know
(25:11):
what your political career is going to be, but we
wish you well in your pursuits. And I'd like to
hear more of this bipartisan dialogue. I'd like to hear
more about how sometimes the other side has the right
answers and to give credit where credit is due. The
Biden administration is pursuing a lot of the same things
as the Trump administration pursuit and you probably won't hear
(25:33):
that on liberal or conservative media outlets, but it's something
you should be hearing about. China is a threat to
the United States, as is Russia, and we need to
recalibrate our commerce and our trade policy and our diplomacy
to reflect that reality. And that was pioneered by the
Trump administration. The Bush and Obama administrations unfortunately ignored the problem.
(25:57):
And going forward, we need more people like Secretary Pompeio
to stand up and say, hey, this is good, keep
on doing it, because we're going in the right direction
and reality is reality. No matter how cheap our products
are from China, we are funding the rise of someone
who is not only a rival, but a threat to
(26:18):
our future, and not just America's future, but the rest
of the world, because China has their fingers in every
single pie around the world, and they're playing the long
game and they're playing the smart game. Well we sit
here and argue about, you know, silliness. They're focused on
building a sustainable economy and a sustainable future for their people,
(26:40):
and you know, obviously China has its problems. You can't
build a civilization based on copying other countries, and I
don't know how sustainable their model is environmentally or socially.
But in the meantime, we need to really confront the
problem and that starts with the that Secretary Pompeios said,
(27:02):
which is recognizing reality, understanding that we can't continue doing
things the way we've been doing them and sticking our
head in the sand. So that was what really stuck
out to me about Mike Pompeios talked with me. It
was really his talk on China, and you know, it's
it's cute because you know, Secretary Pompeio is a real person.
(27:23):
His relationship with his son is something I mentioned and
it's something that you read about a lot. His son
is very special to him and his son's adopted, but
they've you know, developed a very close relationship. And when
his son got engaged, you know that the fiance said,
are you are you the sanctioned family by marrying into
a sanctioned family? You know. Secretary Pompeio is a real person.
(27:45):
You know, he lives in Kansas. He has to make
money like the rest of us. But for a while
there he was the face of America. And no matter
whether you're left or right, that's the ceremony and the
pomp and circumstance, no pun intended. It's something for the
history books. And no matter what you think, America is
(28:06):
still the leader in this world for now. And he
was the leader, at least the face of the free world,
not the leader that would be the president. So it
was an honor to have him on the podcast. In
the same way, I would extend the same invitation to
Anthony B. Lincoln, who is our current Secretary of State.
Probably a little busy for the podcast, but in the meantime,
stay tuned to so many more good interviews like this
(28:28):
and conversations about bipartisanship, about the need for entrepreneurship, and
about the need for a reality check without all the
talking points. I'm David Grasso, So thanks to all of
you for joining me as we Follow the Prophet, and
a big thanks to our producers Cheyenne Read, Scott Handler,
and of course to our executive producer's Knu gang Rich
(28:50):
and Debbie Myers. I'm David Grasso. If you're enjoying this
show as much as i am, give us five stars
and give us a review. We read those and take
your feedback in mind. Follow the Prophet is a production
of Gingwich three sixty and I Heart Radio. For more
podcasts for my heart Radio, visit the i Heart Radio app,
Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. Part of
(29:14):
the Gingwich three network
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