August 18, 2021 • 42 mins
Dennis Kucinich became Mayor of Cleveland at just 31 when he was launched into a battle against corruption that almost cost him his life. Since then, Kucinich has remained a rare example of cooperative politics, representing Ohio’s 10th District from 1997-2013 and running for Governor in 2018. David spoke with Congressman Kucinich about corruption at the state and national level, and what it really takes to create policy that benefits working people.
Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
I'm David Grosso, and you're listening to follow the Profit.
You may have heard of him, especially if you're my age.
I'm in my mid actually am almost forty at this point.
But Congressman Dennis Kucinich was someone who was, you know,
a flag waiver for the progressive movement. He ran for
(00:23):
presidents in two thousand four, among many other things, and
he's really been a person who fights corruption and was
ahead of his time really politically. He's here joining me
to talk about his story. How you doing good to
be with you today. It's, you know, like you a
lot of things going on, and I'm very grateful to
have the chance to discuss the division of light and
(00:45):
power with with you in bold. Yeah, so you have
a book where you talk about your experience. But before
we get to, you know, how you cleaned up Cleveland,
like you grew up in Cleveland, tell us a little
bit about your upbringing and what what it was like.
I grew up in Cleveland the oldest of seven. My
parents never owned a home, and as the family good
(01:08):
became increasingly difficult to find place to rent. So, you know,
we go from two children to three and suddenly it
was very difficult to find a place, and often we
just try to land with as many kids as we
might be able to get into the apartment landlord which
show up and say you have to go. By the
(01:29):
time I was seventeen, I lived in about twenty one
different places, including a couple of cars, And that gave
me a real compassion for what people can go through
in life. You know, as a child, you don't really
it's kind of an adventure. You don't really think about, uh,
the trials that your parents go through day to day
(01:51):
to day, because you're just living in a child's world.
But you know, as I look back, it's really it's
really a uh, it's really gonna blessing because it's informed
me from an early time how difficult life can be
for people, how people have to struggle to make ends meet,
(02:13):
how um one must always take that into account when
you're in public service, because and and right now these
are particularly tough times for people in the Cleveland area.
There's a high poverty, high crime, a lot of social disorganization. Yeah,
and it's like, I have a whole, great, big family
(02:34):
here that I'm going to try to take care of.
So you got into politics at the age of twenty three,
you you joined the city council. Can you tell me
a little bit about what inspired you besides your upbringing?
And really, statistically not a lot of people like you
end up in politics. Well, you know, I I've always
felt down a spiritual side that my life doesn't belong
(02:56):
just to me. It's you know, I believe in service.
You want to be a leader, you should first be
a servant. And so throughout my childhood it was about
serving and helping others and what I was thinking about
a career. I became interested in public service when John
Kennedy was president and I thought, you know, maybe this
(03:19):
is an area where I could help people. So I
ran her office at age twenty and was elected the
next time I ran two years later. And I was
motivated and still am by a desire to serve, by
a desire to help people, by a desire to make
government work for people, to to meet people's practical aspirations
(03:39):
for safety and for good housing and clean streets and
you know all those things that matter. Well, and you
and your and your first big political fight was with
the power company. You wrote a book about it, of course,
Can you tell me a little bit about your experience
fighting corruption at the public light company. Well, the minute
(04:02):
that I got to the council, Uh, you know, I
went on election. It's Christmas time, just before I take
the oath of office. I'm shopping with my wife in
downtown Cleveland, and all of a sudden, all the lights
go off. Christmas disappears. Now Cleveland have been having blackouts
that in opportune times. We have a public power system.
(04:25):
That system has competed door to door with a private
utility monopoly and about a third of the city. But
the city kept having outages, and I wonder what's going
on here? And so when I got into council, I
found out that the private power company was blocking the
city for making repairs on its generators so we could
(04:49):
generate power, and in doing that it made the city
system less reliable. They were they were basically lobbying the
city council to stop our school system from working. As
the story goes on, I discover that some of the
blackouts which the city was experiencing, we're being engineered by
(05:13):
the private power company. That when the city needed a
transfer of power, the private power company operated it in
such a way as create a blackout. On the communi
light system and then they send her salesman into muni
lighted areas saying, it looks like your company doesn't work
too well, I want to sign up with us. There's
(05:34):
a lot of dirty tricks and the story is one
of of corporate sabotage, of corporate espionage, but it also
sounds like something go ahead. It sounds like something you
would hear congressman in like a third world country. Doesn't
sound like something that would happen in Ohio. Well it did,
and you have to keep in mind at that point, Cleveland, Ohio,
(05:55):
was the number three corporate capital in America, and the
corporations at the decided that they just were going to
back their member, the Cleveland Electric Luning Company, it's effort
to take over muni like and at the same time
Cleveland was the number three was the bombing capital of America.
(06:16):
Mob factions were at war with each other for control
of gambling, prostitution, loan sharking, vices of all kinds, and
that you know, war broke out into the open. And
it was against that backdrop that I end up running
(06:37):
for mayor on a pledge to save our cities. Municipal
electric system from a takeover. Now keep in mind the
system had been sold I intervened. When I intervened, a
high power rifle shot missed by it had by a
fraction of an inch. And I didn't realize until I
was mayor that there was an active assassination plot that
there was so much at stake with this little utility
(07:02):
that the private utility wanted to eliminate competition, be able
to charge whatever they could to all utility customers in
the area, and be able to start paying off the
debts that we're growing for them on nuclear power plants
that they had built which were not being used and
which were not useful, and so they they had a
(07:24):
financial and there was a point when I became mayor
that whatever they could do to get me out of
the way, they were prepared to do. Wow. So how
I was going to ask that question, how did you
live to tell this tale? Because it seems like with
that type of lawlessness and all those entrenched economic interests,
they were going to stop you whatever the costs. Luck,
(07:47):
I mean absolute luck. I'll give you an example. I
was supposed to be the Grand Marshal want to parade
on the east side of Cleveland, primarily African American area
around column but day in night and I was waiting
(08:08):
to meet with Carl Stokes, who was the first African
American elected mayor of a big city, Mayor Cleveland nineteen
sixty seven. I was waiting to meet with Carl Stokes,
and at that point, Carl was making his name and
broadcasting in New York City. So I was waiting for Carl.
I'm upstairs my library in a very home that I'm
(08:28):
talking to you from now. Um. I suddenly passed out
and when I woke up, there's blood everywhere. I didn't
know what had happened there, I mean my I was
covering blood from top to bottom and I slumped back
(08:52):
into the chair. My wife at this point was calling Carl,
who had arrived to come upstairs. He lifts me up
out of the bed, out of out of the chair,
puts me into in bed, and the ambulance is on
its way. It turned out that I had a an
ulcer that broke over an artery and I was bleeding
to death and I was rushed to Hillcrest's Hospital, where
(09:15):
over a period of time, I was transfuged six units,
which is like a complete transfusion. UM. When I woke.
When I came to I saw police everywhere at the hospital,
and I talked to the chief of police. I said,
what the heck is going on here? Well, they told
me that they had discovered that there was this plot
(09:38):
that was supposed to be executed while I was in
that parade, and if I had if I had been
in that parade, I may not have lived to tell
about it. And so because I was rushed to the
hospital instead, I avoided that very dangerous and possibly fatal encounter.
(09:59):
A This is one of the things about the book
that makes the book um. For me, it was just extraordinary.
You just have to write it. But for the reader
you'll find it compelling from the standpoint of how just
sometimes faked intervenes. And just so you know, there was
a U. S. Senate Subcommittee report and Organized Crime in
the Midwest that documented this very event that I'm talking about, which, uh,
(10:25):
you know, we're supposed to occur while I was in
this parade, So you know, yeah, I was lucky to
make I was absolutely lucky to make it out of
that term alive. And they were ongoing plots throughout the
remainder of my time in office. So and I read
about those as well, but I never at the time. Yeah.
(10:48):
So in the end, you know, Muni Lights save the
city hundreds of millions of dollars and kind of cemented
your the rest of your political career, which took you
to the State Center and ultimately to Congress. What what
lessons did you take from that debacle? And you know,
living in danger and fighting these entrenched interests to the
rest of your career, never never give up, and never
(11:12):
give in. Muni Light had been sold. I got involved
and turned it around, saved the system, stopped the UH
private utility from forcing the sales, stopped a bank that
told me I'm the summer fift. They were going to
renew the city's credit as long as I hadn't even
taken out unless I agreed to sell UNI Light to
(11:35):
the private utility, which was their banking partner. I said no.
They put the City of Cleveland into default. You know,
if you believe in something, to take a stand, you
don't give up, You don't give in. And to me,
you know, public service means that you might be called
the plan at one point or another. To put it
on a line with your very career on the line.
(11:56):
I was. I didn't know, by the way, after I
left city all that I ever had a political career again,
because I was getting smeared as a guy that quote
bankrupt and unquote the city of Cleveland. None of that
was true, but it didn't matter because people knew what
they were told in the newspapers and the newspapers and
the rest of the media at that time in Cleveland,
(12:17):
they were all in the tank for the private utility
company and for the bank. They're all going along with
this idea of selling Muni lights. The city was gaslighted.
I mean, I mean, you know the story is it
is a psychological thriller as well, because it it shows
how the external reality that we all know can be
(12:38):
so manipulated that people don't know which end is up.
I know, and I just was steadfast. I mean the
lessons learned. You know, the reader will may come up
with a different lesson, but the lesson I took away
never give up and never give in. Politics takes a
(13:05):
lot of patients, right, So you did state politics and
then ultimately you went to Congress. How did you have
the patients to deal with? You know, Uphill battles constantly.
It seems like every day in politics is compromised, you know, agreement,
It's it's not an easy profession. Well, life is very creative.
(13:26):
I mean I take a very creative approach to every day.
You know, I don't spend my time worrying about what
might happen. I spend my time trying to make things happen.
And so whether it was a state senator to the U. S. House,
I look at the things creatively and I believe in
getting involved. I'm not somebody that sits back and watches.
(13:47):
I'm a participant. And on the floor of the house,
there's a dynamic there. It's like a big high school
in some ways, but there's a dynamic, almost a physical emotion,
you know, the movement of phisical forces that you can
feel where you're down and when there's an issue at stake,
and to be involved, to talk to the people are
making the decisions as you are. You find that there
(14:10):
are times and you can search yourself into a debate
and change the outcome. That's what makes it's so exciting.
That's why I love being on the floor of the
house because that's where things can happen and so I
never got frustrated. I never felt impatient for anything. I
(14:30):
was just grateful to have a chance to represent the
people and have a chance to enter into uh the
decision making and the debates, and occasionally have an opportunity
to try to change the outcoming. And it's such a
blessing to have that. And so I, you know, I
felt very blessed to be there, particularly since you know,
when I left city Hall in Cleveland, I okay, no
(14:53):
one would take bets that i'd have a career again.
So did you have a Republican front? Did you work
with people across the aisle? What was that like? Yeah,
I don't really, you know, party parties don't describe who
we are as Americans. So I made it a point
to reach across the aisle all the time. I'd like
(15:15):
to point to the giant American eagle that spreads its
wings across the canopy of the house, and you point
up to it and said, you know, you see that
eagle needs two wings to fly. None of us and
politics are able to impose our will on anyone else.
It's always a collaborative effect, our effort and and and
(15:39):
it's unwise to disparage anyone because of their political party,
their philosophy. Try to get to know them, try to
work with them. See if you can work with them
on one issue you may disagree on, but the one
issue you agree on could be the most important issue
for the country. So I always keep open the door
to work with people, and that's what I've done. So
I've worked with Republicans Democrats. To me, you know, you
(16:05):
might have a disagreement, but that disagreement can enable you
to explore a relationship. You might end up being friends
and find something else to agree on. But never, never,
never cut off communication or cut off access to decision
makers simply because you're not happy with the way of
particular issue turn turned out. I mean, life is this
(16:29):
incredible pageant. There's so many opportunities out there every day
that if you could find something to agree with people
on or they with you, hey, you might really be
able to make a contribution and change things. So I
always look for those opportunities. And I, you know, if
I was impatient, was only to get started at a
given day and get into it, get into the action.
(16:55):
So eventually your your congressional district that you represented for
so many years, was re restricted, was redistricted. Can you
tell me a little bit about that. Yeah, it was
a little bit of a gandy dance as far as
between the Democrats and Republicans, because at first the Republicans
(17:15):
are going to chop up the district, but then they
decided not to because I was one of the few
Democrats who was willing to talk to them, even though
I didn't vote with them, So it looked like I
had a district. And then the Democrats weighed in and
they said, nah, you know, because Cynic has to go.
He's not down the line with us all the time.
And so eventually my seat was chopped up, but not
(17:39):
at the be host of the Republicans, that the host
of the Democrats. And you know, politics can be very
strange that way. You just resumed, well, Democrats would want
to protect a longstanding Democratic seat, not a chance. Uh.
You know. Political parties have their own agenda. They represent
interests that I may or may not have gone along with.
(18:00):
You know, that's okay. I never complained about it. But
the one thing people need to know it was not
the Republicans who caused my congressional sheet to be eliminated.
It was the Democratic Party articleumb was Ohio, Wow, So
do you think you were too far left for them
or just off the political spectrum or not pushing their
(18:21):
agenda sufficiently to their liking. I can't be controlled. I'm
not transactional. If something's right, I'll go along with. If
it's not, I want I mean, it's really that's pretty simple.
But there are types of feel that, well, whatever the
party quote unquote launch, you gotta do it, you know,
(18:42):
but it's it's the party really have a good um,
you know, thumb on the pulse of America. We saw
that Hillary Clinton lost in you know, and what ensued afterwards?
Does the party really understand? Well, it can can, but
when it doesn't, it's generally because you know, thirty years ago,
(19:06):
thirty or forty years ago, the Democratic Party started to
take contributions from the same corporate interests as Republicans, So
the difference between the two parties became blurred. That doesn't
mean that people inside the party were blurring their differences,
but the differences did become blurred, and and that would
(19:28):
affect party policy. Health care, for example, I mean, insurance
companies have their hooks into both political parties. This is
the reason why you don't have Medicare for all. I mean,
it just it just happens that way. So the system, Uh,
the system needs a lot of help, and I think
it probably needs another party as well. But you know,
(19:50):
it's it's it's often when you're inside, all you have
is your integrity. You know, I'm not holier than I'm
I've better than anyone else. But if I actually something
I don't agree with because I think it's fundamentally wrong,
nothing anybody can tell me about what they're gonna do
to me, for me or whatever, it's going to change
(20:12):
my mind. On the other hand, if I agree with something,
I'll work with anyone to make it, make make it accomplished.
So you know, it's I guess my approach is somewhat pragmatic,
but it's a kind of pragmatism born of idealism. About
(20:32):
your presidential run, because I remember that, I remember seeing
you on TV, and you know, you were one of
the you were seeing in my notes here and I
had forgotten this. You were the last to concede to
John Kerry. Tell me about that. Yeah, I look, I
was in that race from February of two thousand three.
I think it was all the way through to the
(20:54):
convention in Boshington and I and I, you know, my
hers was too make sure that the people knew they
had a choice all the way through and they did,
and so you know I was able to run. I
ran a lot stronger and some of the later primaries,
(21:16):
and I was very happy to stay in the race
in the end. You know, I supported the nominee. That's
part of the deal when you get into that kind
of a of a setting and where your honor bound.
So tell me a little bit about also, So you
you said you stayed, You stayed in the race in
(21:38):
order to talk about certain issues, and that after your
congressional career brought you to Fox News, an unlikely platform
for you, congressman, isn't it not at all? I mean,
it's actually how to change people's minds if you don't
talk to them. Fox News a very powerful news outlet,
and I had a chance to be well to communicate
(22:01):
with people without changing my opinion on anything. Boxers didn't
hire me so they could get me to spot some
kind of a Fox party line that never happened. They
wanted to know what my opinion was. I mean when
I was called by Roger Ailes to consider going to
work for Fox and said, Dennis, I don't agree with
much of anything that you say, but I think you're honest,
(22:24):
and I think that your point of view would be
valuable on our on our network. And so I was never, ever,
in hundreds of appearances, ever asked to take a particular
point of viewer a line even suggested. And what I
found out was that it really set the stage for
(22:45):
a deeper understanding that you can communicate with people even
though you may have strong differences of opinion, and you
get have friendships with people even though you may differ
as far as one important show or another. In fact,
you came out and praised Trump's inauguration speech. Can you
tell me why? And for those of us who are confused,
(23:07):
can you clear that up? Well? You know, I think I,
first of all, I think that being a good American
involved that no matter who wins the election, you give
that person at least a day. I mean, really, it's
like he didn't need to pile on on day one.
He said some things about American trade that I've been
(23:27):
saying for forty years. I thought it was good. Um,
you know, no one would confuse my politics with Donald
Trump's to do anything about me. But I also feel that,
you know, it's the beginning of a new term, and
(23:49):
you want to you want to communicate to all Americans
that as Americans, the elections over, we close ranks and
move the country ahead. Um, that's on day one. On
day two, you can go back to fighting. Right after
an inauguration. I mean, you know, I think it's a
(24:11):
I think as an American, I think at all of
us as Americans, need to consider that day, which is
a celebration of who we are as a country, as
a celebrational process for me, not like a person who
gets elected. You know, I can tell you I've latched
many inaugurations and looked at someone raising the right end
and I didn't vote for that person. But to close
(24:33):
ranks as a country for a day where you celebrate America,
not one person, and you try to indicate an interest
in giving somebody a break and working with them. Um.
And you know, I don't know many times that he
would have had my vote, but I will tell you
that I think that we have to respect the presidency
(24:54):
on the inauguration that Congressman, if I give you a
magic wad. This podcast is called Follow the Profit. If
you could reinvent the American economy, what would you do?
Line by line? Um, stop spending money on wars. We
(25:19):
have blown trillions of dollars on wars that were based
on lies. And there's no other way to put it.
We're not going to rule the world. We can't afford
to rule the world. We have enough. Problem is figuring
out how we're going to run our country rather than
telling somebody else how they should run theirs. I think
(25:40):
a you, I would caution about this aggressive militarism which
is marked America's foreign policy in the last twenty years.
I mean, Biden seemed to be dialing that back as
to Trump in some way, and I would so you know,
(26:00):
you suddenly you have trillions of dollars that you make
available for other priorities, such as rebuilding the infrastructure. Timeres
is doing that right now. Hopefully we have over three
four trillion dollars in needs to rebuild America roads, bridges,
water system, source system. It's an investment in our country.
(26:22):
You put people back to work with good paying jobs.
That's what you need. You need good paying jobs that
trade change all these trade agreements. I mean Americans, America
was a sucker of the world on trade. You know,
whether it was NAFTA, get the China trade, I voted
against everyone that I could. I grew up in an
era where free trade was kind of, you know, a
(26:45):
decided issue. Why were you always suspicious of it because
it didn't have any requirements for workers rights, for wages,
for human rights, prohbitions on slave labor, for environmental quality principles.
I mean, it's we have these principles of sorts in
(27:08):
our country, but when we go to China or other
countries and they don't have any workers rights, any human rights,
any environmental quality principles, what happens. We're actually subsidizing a
degradation of the environment and degredation of humanity, a diminishment
of workers rights, and we're undermining those rights here at home.
(27:32):
I saw that so clearly, and so you know, whether
it was in Seattle and when the teamsters were marching
with the turtles and I had a d eighteen Members
of Congress Center petition demanding that any trade agreement that
came out of Seattle mandatory workers right, human rights, environmental
quality principles, trade trades great, but you gotta have a
(27:55):
level playing field. America has never done that. Look, when
China Trade came up, there were five lobbyists for every
member of Congress. We've been over two thousand lobbiest right
and American leading American corporations were coming to my office.
Boeing came into my office and they asked me to
vote for China Trade. And what I had discovered before
the meeting is they were going to give China the
(28:15):
prototype under development of latest aircraft aircraft manufacturing huge American industry.
Why the hell will we give that away to anybody?
So I I really look at what's best from America,
not you know, and and you know we're about the
rest of the world later take care of America. We
haven't done that well. We've hallowed out our middle class.
(28:37):
No matter what you think about free trade, do you
feel like free trade has really played a role in
kind of you know, places like Ohio have been hollowed
out industry. Draw a straight line from those trade agreements
to the closing down of small factories and you know,
dialing back of big industries. Main street stores start to
(28:59):
go down because people don't have the income they once
said they lose their jobs. They they you know, have
to relocate to other areas. There's quality of life has
been diminished. Yeah, the middle class standing of Americans started
to eroad about fifty years ago. And you know, trade
has been part of it, and our spending on military
(29:22):
has been part of it. Are uh m, you know,
the drugs that came into this country as a result
of our involvement in Southeast Asia, the drugs that came
into this country as a result of our involvement in Afghanistan.
Our country has been under assault and bad decisions have
been made. I love America, but you know, our policies,
(29:48):
foreign policies, domestic policies, Yeah, continue to leave something to
be desired. So I stay involved. So how do you begin?
So it seems like dialing back the military industrial complex
is pretty straightforward, right, no matter what you think, right,
And we're all pro military pro veterans. But that's a
(30:08):
pretty easy issue. This free trade issue is a lot
more dicey because you know, speaking to you today on
a bunch of imported equipment, you know, we have a
situation where China is an ascending power. You know, with
all our stuff that we buy, they use that money
for their global ambitions. How do you even begin to
undo the last twenty years years have just established free trade.
(30:35):
We have to rebuild our strategic industrial bage. So if
we're going to rebuild our infrastructure, we are be using
American steel. You know, you have steel, automotive, aerospace, shipping.
Those are industries that help build America. They helped sustain
us for World Wars. They help they helped build a
middle class. We've let a lot of any road we
need to go back to that, there's not you know,
(30:57):
it's like give me an old time religion. You know,
we need to go back to making things with our
hands by American, you know, or by by American. You
all the chief goods that we buy people are making
next to nothing making them right, and we're not buying
things that are made in America that where people get
a decent ways and some benefits. Got to start thinking
(31:18):
about that. I mean, we have this, you know, multi
trillion dollars economy, and we act like, you know, these
corporate interests really have so loud America. I mean, that's
why I look at it. By by shipping our jobs
out of the country. You know, I come from Cleveland, Ohio. Cleveland,
Ohio was part of the industrial power that built America,
(31:42):
that sustained it. And I see what happened in Cleveland.
I see these trade agreements have wrote it and we
still have to face some of the issues that I've raised,
They're still existed. This sounds like a lot of the
stuff of the Trump administer and tried to pursue. Do
you feel like they were on the right track with
(32:02):
the teriffs with China and whatnot. Let me tell you something.
The dollar bill has an ideology all of its own.
People are moving industries out of the United States and
they continue to do so. I want things made America.
I want I want to make sure our markets are
(32:25):
not going to be destroyed by chips that come in,
you know, the the microprocessing and the high level chips
that are created in Silken Valley. Look that that industry
can be wiped out in a day with a flood
of imports. We have to realize that America has a
(32:49):
great place of innovation and science and technology. You know,
we've made things so that we can be proud of,
but we can't keep an edge if we give away
what it is we've made. And this is where corporations
have a patriotic responsibility to America. They don't really feel it.
(33:09):
They don't pretend they have it, but they I think
they really do. You know, if you're gonna take your
money out of the country, keep it out of the country,
make cheap goods, flood dish country with it, you're not
a good American. I guess what do we do about
rising prices? Though? I guess that's always the big question, right,
which is the opposite of this, Like I'm able to
get this microphone that I'm speaking to you on today
(33:32):
for a low cost because it was likely manufactured abroad.
So do we just eat it as consumers, especially in
an era where you know of Americans get by paycheck
to paycheck. Well, you know, the rising prices go up
even though the labor is cheap. Keep that in mind.
It's not the cost of labor that's CAUs causing prices
(33:53):
to go up. It's the demand and you know, the
go go go Wall Street, uh finance actualization of the economy. Yeah,
I mean, the people have high wages in mind buying
goods that cost more. They're made in this country. But
the goods costs more when they're not made in this country.
(34:16):
Think about how that accelerates the erosion of our economy
and of economic opportunities. So yeah, I have a probably
a slightly different view of that. I'm not happy with
the Democratic Party. You gotta remember NAP the past under
President Clinton. I think it was dead wrong with it
and um and it was one of the reasons why
(34:38):
the knock on effect I think was actually felt by
Hillary Clinton in her attempt to be elected president. I
think that's a real reason why she was knocked out
because if you look at at at Ohio, at Michigan
and states in the Midwest atop a beating when these
(34:59):
traitor is past, you know there was going to be
reckoning that would occur politically just inevitable. So speaking of
that populist politics, you seem like you fashioned yourself as
a populist politician. Is there a room for that in
today's world? Obviously we saw the rise of Trump and
we'll probably see more populist presidents. I don't fashion myself.
(35:22):
I'm a truth teller. I just call it as I
see it. I don't care whatever label people put on me.
That doesn't mean anything to me. But when I see
something that and I just disagree with but I know
it's wrong. Let's speak out. That's what I did after
(35:43):
nine eleven, when our country began to go on the
path towards war against Iraq, I did the analysis. Anyone
who wants to go and just and I'll demonstrate to
them right now now that's the path that have taken,
the truth telling. Go to any search engine type in
(36:04):
pricinage Iraq War Analysis October two, two thousand two, and
you will be surprised to learn that a member of
Congress may had nailed back then that they didn't have
proof that Iraq had anything to do at nine eleven
with Okada throwing nine eleven. Iraq didn't have the intention
(36:26):
the capability of attacking America. Ireq did not have the
weapons of mass destruction, which the administration at the time
we're using it as the pretext to accelerate a military
attack on Iraq. This was not just a tragedy, This
was a monstrous lie that still calls out for justice.
The people who went there to serve this country served
(36:48):
honorably and we love them, but the people who sent
them there not honorable. They lied, and you know, we
we still have to reckon with that that the Iraq,
that the Iraq War was based on a to lie,
and I knew that before we got into it. I
organized on people, mostly Democrats, to vote against the Ireq
War Resolution. You know, that's the why I am. If
(37:10):
I see something, I'll say it and no issues too
big that will cause me to say, oh well, I
can't handle that, it's to war. No, there are things
you have to step forward on. And that's what I did,
just like I did years earlier in Cleveland when I
was called upon to say the sale of the municipal
electric system is wrong, that they're trying to force us
(37:32):
to sell it. It's fundamentally wrong. So just about you know,
the capacity, the willingness to stand up for what's right
and stand against the challenge what's wrong. So are there
any truth tellers out there that we see on television
these days in politics? I don't look for truth tellers.
I follow my own conscience. Well, is there anyone that
(37:57):
we should be watching? No, I'm not gonna advise you
to do that. I think that you know, each person
has to decide for himself or herself, based on their
own moral compass, what's right and wrong. I don't you know,
I'm not. I'm not a devotee of anybody's politics, of
anybody's career. Um, you know, I have a spiritual center
(38:20):
and that's what I followed, and i'm you know, and
make my decisions based on and I not just my
life experience, but on some deeper understanding of whether things
are right or wrong. Well, I hope there's more of
that in politics. On that note, we know your time
is valuable. Congressman. Thank you so much for your time today. Yeah,
(38:42):
I appreciate this incisive, probing interview because it really Yeah,
it causes me to go deeper into these questions, and
I just want to thank you for that. Yeah, of course,
that's my job. That's what journalism is supposed to be
all about. Thanks, thank you so much, And please let
people know about the book if you can't, put it
(39:03):
on a website so people have a chance to look
at it. It's nothing like what that book described as
ever before happened in American politics, at least it never
surfaced before. So thanks so much. Thank you. So One
(39:24):
of the things that I've always liked about Congressman Kucinich
is that he challenges my ideas that I have about America.
I can't think of many things I agree with him on,
but I think it's unique insight that we have to
think about. You know, all these questions about free trade
and the role of the military are important questions for
our generation. We can't let these go anymore. We're seeing
(39:47):
a serious crisis with the middle class in this country
and their ability to just pay for their basic needs,
including rent, healthcare, and education, and a lot of it
is a function of much money they make. They're not
making enough money, So how do we get more money
into the pockets of the middle class? And naturally all
(40:09):
roads lead back to trade, specifically free trade. Me myself,
I'm very pro free trade. I feel like it's the
cloud above your head. You can't really fight it. But
there are questions as to whether we've taken it too far,
whether we do need some homegrown manufacturing. And it's the
same thing with the military. Having a strong military and
(40:33):
being the global leader is very important, but fighting needless
wars in nation building is probably something that we shouldn't
be doing. And that's a bipartisan issue these days. But
in the not so distant past, when I was in college,
the Iraq war was something that was very popular and
today we probably wouldn't see the same thing because of
(40:55):
economic reasons. It's widely apparent that here in America break
the Americans need help. We need secure power, paved roads,
infrastructure in general, a stronger education system. Our needs grow
every day. Everything gets more competitive over time, and if
we don't make investments here at home and grow the
(41:16):
economy of a future and really visualize what we want
to be as a country, will never get there. And
I think that a lot of that process involves talking
to people on the other side and realizing that truth
isn't left or right, it's often in the middle. On
that note, um David Grosso for Follow the Profit, We'll
see you next time. I'd like to thank my entire
(41:43):
production team, including our executive producers Debbie Myers and former
Speaker of the House New Gingrich, as well as our
young interns who are making sure this show is fresh
and relevant for all of you. Follow the Profit is
a production of gen Which three six and I Heart Radio.
Can download us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you
(42:03):
get your podcasts. Part of the Ginglich three network,
I'm David Grosso, and you're listening to follow the Profit.
You may have heard of him, especially if you're my age.
I'm in my mid actually am almost forty at this point.
But Congressman Dennis Kucinich was someone who was, you know,
a flag waiver for the progressive movement. He ran for
(00:23):
presidents in two thousand four, among many other things, and
he's really been a person who fights corruption and was
ahead of his time really politically. He's here joining me
to talk about his story. How you doing good to
be with you today. It's, you know, like you a
lot of things going on, and I'm very grateful to
have the chance to discuss the division of light and
(00:45):
power with with you in bold. Yeah, so you have
a book where you talk about your experience. But before
we get to, you know, how you cleaned up Cleveland,
like you grew up in Cleveland, tell us a little
bit about your upbringing and what what it was like.
I grew up in Cleveland the oldest of seven. My
parents never owned a home, and as the family good
(01:08):
became increasingly difficult to find place to rent. So, you know,
we go from two children to three and suddenly it
was very difficult to find a place, and often we
just try to land with as many kids as we
might be able to get into the apartment landlord which
show up and say you have to go. By the
(01:29):
time I was seventeen, I lived in about twenty one
different places, including a couple of cars, And that gave
me a real compassion for what people can go through
in life. You know, as a child, you don't really
it's kind of an adventure. You don't really think about, uh,
the trials that your parents go through day to day
(01:51):
to day, because you're just living in a child's world.
But you know, as I look back, it's really it's
really a uh, it's really gonna blessing because it's informed
me from an early time how difficult life can be
for people, how people have to struggle to make ends meet,
(02:13):
how um one must always take that into account when
you're in public service, because and and right now these
are particularly tough times for people in the Cleveland area.
There's a high poverty, high crime, a lot of social disorganization. Yeah,
and it's like, I have a whole, great, big family
(02:34):
here that I'm going to try to take care of.
So you got into politics at the age of twenty three,
you you joined the city council. Can you tell me
a little bit about what inspired you besides your upbringing?
And really, statistically not a lot of people like you
end up in politics. Well, you know, I I've always
felt down a spiritual side that my life doesn't belong
(02:56):
just to me. It's you know, I believe in service.
You want to be a leader, you should first be
a servant. And so throughout my childhood it was about
serving and helping others and what I was thinking about
a career. I became interested in public service when John
Kennedy was president and I thought, you know, maybe this
(03:19):
is an area where I could help people. So I
ran her office at age twenty and was elected the
next time I ran two years later. And I was
motivated and still am by a desire to serve, by
a desire to help people, by a desire to make
government work for people, to to meet people's practical aspirations
(03:39):
for safety and for good housing and clean streets and
you know all those things that matter. Well, and you
and your and your first big political fight was with
the power company. You wrote a book about it, of course,
Can you tell me a little bit about your experience
fighting corruption at the public light company. Well, the minute
(04:02):
that I got to the council, Uh, you know, I
went on election. It's Christmas time, just before I take
the oath of office. I'm shopping with my wife in
downtown Cleveland, and all of a sudden, all the lights
go off. Christmas disappears. Now Cleveland have been having blackouts
that in opportune times. We have a public power system.
(04:25):
That system has competed door to door with a private
utility monopoly and about a third of the city. But
the city kept having outages, and I wonder what's going
on here? And so when I got into council, I
found out that the private power company was blocking the
city for making repairs on its generators so we could
(04:49):
generate power, and in doing that it made the city
system less reliable. They were they were basically lobbying the
city council to stop our school system from working. As
the story goes on, I discover that some of the
blackouts which the city was experiencing, we're being engineered by
(05:13):
the private power company. That when the city needed a
transfer of power, the private power company operated it in
such a way as create a blackout. On the communi
light system and then they send her salesman into muni
lighted areas saying, it looks like your company doesn't work
too well, I want to sign up with us. There's
(05:34):
a lot of dirty tricks and the story is one
of of corporate sabotage, of corporate espionage, but it also
sounds like something go ahead. It sounds like something you
would hear congressman in like a third world country. Doesn't
sound like something that would happen in Ohio. Well it did,
and you have to keep in mind at that point, Cleveland, Ohio,
(05:55):
was the number three corporate capital in America, and the
corporations at the decided that they just were going to
back their member, the Cleveland Electric Luning Company, it's effort
to take over muni like and at the same time
Cleveland was the number three was the bombing capital of America.
(06:16):
Mob factions were at war with each other for control
of gambling, prostitution, loan sharking, vices of all kinds, and
that you know, war broke out into the open. And
it was against that backdrop that I end up running
(06:37):
for mayor on a pledge to save our cities. Municipal
electric system from a takeover. Now keep in mind the
system had been sold I intervened. When I intervened, a
high power rifle shot missed by it had by a
fraction of an inch. And I didn't realize until I
was mayor that there was an active assassination plot that
there was so much at stake with this little utility
(07:02):
that the private utility wanted to eliminate competition, be able
to charge whatever they could to all utility customers in
the area, and be able to start paying off the
debts that we're growing for them on nuclear power plants
that they had built which were not being used and
which were not useful, and so they they had a
(07:24):
financial and there was a point when I became mayor
that whatever they could do to get me out of
the way, they were prepared to do. Wow. So how
I was going to ask that question, how did you
live to tell this tale? Because it seems like with
that type of lawlessness and all those entrenched economic interests,
they were going to stop you whatever the costs. Luck,
(07:47):
I mean absolute luck. I'll give you an example. I
was supposed to be the Grand Marshal want to parade
on the east side of Cleveland, primarily African American area
around column but day in night and I was waiting
(08:08):
to meet with Carl Stokes, who was the first African
American elected mayor of a big city, Mayor Cleveland nineteen
sixty seven. I was waiting to meet with Carl Stokes,
and at that point, Carl was making his name and
broadcasting in New York City. So I was waiting for Carl.
I'm upstairs my library in a very home that I'm
(08:28):
talking to you from now. Um. I suddenly passed out
and when I woke up, there's blood everywhere. I didn't
know what had happened there, I mean my I was
covering blood from top to bottom and I slumped back
(08:52):
into the chair. My wife at this point was calling Carl,
who had arrived to come upstairs. He lifts me up
out of the bed, out of out of the chair,
puts me into in bed, and the ambulance is on
its way. It turned out that I had a an
ulcer that broke over an artery and I was bleeding
to death and I was rushed to Hillcrest's Hospital, where
(09:15):
over a period of time, I was transfuged six units,
which is like a complete transfusion. UM. When I woke.
When I came to I saw police everywhere at the hospital,
and I talked to the chief of police. I said,
what the heck is going on here? Well, they told
me that they had discovered that there was this plot
(09:38):
that was supposed to be executed while I was in
that parade, and if I had if I had been
in that parade, I may not have lived to tell
about it. And so because I was rushed to the
hospital instead, I avoided that very dangerous and possibly fatal encounter.
(09:59):
A This is one of the things about the book
that makes the book um. For me, it was just extraordinary.
You just have to write it. But for the reader
you'll find it compelling from the standpoint of how just
sometimes faked intervenes. And just so you know, there was
a U. S. Senate Subcommittee report and Organized Crime in
the Midwest that documented this very event that I'm talking about, which, uh,
(10:25):
you know, we're supposed to occur while I was in
this parade, So you know, yeah, I was lucky to
make I was absolutely lucky to make it out of
that term alive. And they were ongoing plots throughout the
remainder of my time in office. So and I read
about those as well, but I never at the time. Yeah.
(10:48):
So in the end, you know, Muni Lights save the
city hundreds of millions of dollars and kind of cemented
your the rest of your political career, which took you
to the State Center and ultimately to Congress. What what
lessons did you take from that debacle? And you know,
living in danger and fighting these entrenched interests to the
rest of your career, never never give up, and never
(11:12):
give in. Muni Light had been sold. I got involved
and turned it around, saved the system, stopped the UH
private utility from forcing the sales, stopped a bank that
told me I'm the summer fift. They were going to
renew the city's credit as long as I hadn't even
taken out unless I agreed to sell UNI Light to
(11:35):
the private utility, which was their banking partner. I said no.
They put the City of Cleveland into default. You know,
if you believe in something, to take a stand, you
don't give up, You don't give in. And to me,
you know, public service means that you might be called
the plan at one point or another. To put it
on a line with your very career on the line.
(11:56):
I was. I didn't know, by the way, after I
left city all that I ever had a political career again,
because I was getting smeared as a guy that quote
bankrupt and unquote the city of Cleveland. None of that
was true, but it didn't matter because people knew what
they were told in the newspapers and the newspapers and
the rest of the media at that time in Cleveland,
(12:17):
they were all in the tank for the private utility
company and for the bank. They're all going along with
this idea of selling Muni lights. The city was gaslighted.
I mean, I mean, you know the story is it
is a psychological thriller as well, because it it shows
how the external reality that we all know can be
(12:38):
so manipulated that people don't know which end is up.
I know, and I just was steadfast. I mean the
lessons learned. You know, the reader will may come up
with a different lesson, but the lesson I took away
never give up and never give in. Politics takes a
(13:05):
lot of patients, right, So you did state politics and
then ultimately you went to Congress. How did you have
the patients to deal with? You know, Uphill battles constantly.
It seems like every day in politics is compromised, you know, agreement,
It's it's not an easy profession. Well, life is very creative.
(13:26):
I mean I take a very creative approach to every day.
You know, I don't spend my time worrying about what
might happen. I spend my time trying to make things happen.
And so whether it was a state senator to the U. S. House,
I look at the things creatively and I believe in
getting involved. I'm not somebody that sits back and watches.
(13:47):
I'm a participant. And on the floor of the house,
there's a dynamic there. It's like a big high school
in some ways, but there's a dynamic, almost a physical emotion,
you know, the movement of phisical forces that you can
feel where you're down and when there's an issue at stake,
and to be involved, to talk to the people are
making the decisions as you are. You find that there
(14:10):
are times and you can search yourself into a debate
and change the outcome. That's what makes it's so exciting.
That's why I love being on the floor of the
house because that's where things can happen and so I
never got frustrated. I never felt impatient for anything. I
(14:30):
was just grateful to have a chance to represent the
people and have a chance to enter into uh the
decision making and the debates, and occasionally have an opportunity
to try to change the outcoming. And it's such a
blessing to have that. And so I, you know, I
felt very blessed to be there, particularly since you know,
when I left city Hall in Cleveland, I okay, no
(14:53):
one would take bets that i'd have a career again.
So did you have a Republican front? Did you work
with people across the aisle? What was that like? Yeah,
I don't really, you know, party parties don't describe who
we are as Americans. So I made it a point
to reach across the aisle all the time. I'd like
(15:15):
to point to the giant American eagle that spreads its
wings across the canopy of the house, and you point
up to it and said, you know, you see that
eagle needs two wings to fly. None of us and
politics are able to impose our will on anyone else.
It's always a collaborative effect, our effort and and and
(15:39):
it's unwise to disparage anyone because of their political party,
their philosophy. Try to get to know them, try to
work with them. See if you can work with them
on one issue you may disagree on, but the one
issue you agree on could be the most important issue
for the country. So I always keep open the door
to work with people, and that's what I've done. So
I've worked with Republicans Democrats. To me, you know, you
(16:05):
might have a disagreement, but that disagreement can enable you
to explore a relationship. You might end up being friends
and find something else to agree on. But never, never,
never cut off communication or cut off access to decision
makers simply because you're not happy with the way of
particular issue turn turned out. I mean, life is this
(16:29):
incredible pageant. There's so many opportunities out there every day
that if you could find something to agree with people
on or they with you, hey, you might really be
able to make a contribution and change things. So I
always look for those opportunities. And I, you know, if
I was impatient, was only to get started at a
given day and get into it, get into the action.
(16:55):
So eventually your your congressional district that you represented for
so many years, was re restricted, was redistricted. Can you
tell me a little bit about that. Yeah, it was
a little bit of a gandy dance as far as
between the Democrats and Republicans, because at first the Republicans
(17:15):
are going to chop up the district, but then they
decided not to because I was one of the few
Democrats who was willing to talk to them, even though
I didn't vote with them, So it looked like I
had a district. And then the Democrats weighed in and
they said, nah, you know, because Cynic has to go.
He's not down the line with us all the time.
And so eventually my seat was chopped up, but not
(17:39):
at the be host of the Republicans, that the host
of the Democrats. And you know, politics can be very
strange that way. You just resumed, well, Democrats would want
to protect a longstanding Democratic seat, not a chance. Uh.
You know. Political parties have their own agenda. They represent
interests that I may or may not have gone along with.
(18:00):
You know, that's okay. I never complained about it. But
the one thing people need to know it was not
the Republicans who caused my congressional sheet to be eliminated.
It was the Democratic Party articleumb was Ohio, Wow, So
do you think you were too far left for them
or just off the political spectrum or not pushing their
(18:21):
agenda sufficiently to their liking. I can't be controlled. I'm
not transactional. If something's right, I'll go along with. If
it's not, I want I mean, it's really that's pretty simple.
But there are types of feel that, well, whatever the
party quote unquote launch, you gotta do it, you know,
(18:42):
but it's it's the party really have a good um,
you know, thumb on the pulse of America. We saw
that Hillary Clinton lost in you know, and what ensued afterwards?
Does the party really understand? Well, it can can, but
when it doesn't, it's generally because you know, thirty years ago,
(19:06):
thirty or forty years ago, the Democratic Party started to
take contributions from the same corporate interests as Republicans, So
the difference between the two parties became blurred. That doesn't
mean that people inside the party were blurring their differences,
but the differences did become blurred, and and that would
(19:28):
affect party policy. Health care, for example, I mean, insurance
companies have their hooks into both political parties. This is
the reason why you don't have Medicare for all. I mean,
it just it just happens that way. So the system, Uh,
the system needs a lot of help, and I think
it probably needs another party as well. But you know,
(19:50):
it's it's it's often when you're inside, all you have
is your integrity. You know, I'm not holier than I'm
I've better than anyone else. But if I actually something
I don't agree with because I think it's fundamentally wrong,
nothing anybody can tell me about what they're gonna do
to me, for me or whatever, it's going to change
(20:12):
my mind. On the other hand, if I agree with something,
I'll work with anyone to make it, make make it accomplished.
So you know, it's I guess my approach is somewhat pragmatic,
but it's a kind of pragmatism born of idealism. About
(20:32):
your presidential run, because I remember that, I remember seeing
you on TV, and you know, you were one of
the you were seeing in my notes here and I
had forgotten this. You were the last to concede to
John Kerry. Tell me about that. Yeah, I look, I
was in that race from February of two thousand three.
I think it was all the way through to the
(20:54):
convention in Boshington and I and I, you know, my
hers was too make sure that the people knew they
had a choice all the way through and they did,
and so you know I was able to run. I
ran a lot stronger and some of the later primaries,
(21:16):
and I was very happy to stay in the race
in the end. You know, I supported the nominee. That's
part of the deal when you get into that kind
of a of a setting and where your honor bound.
So tell me a little bit about also, So you
you said you stayed, You stayed in the race in
(21:38):
order to talk about certain issues, and that after your
congressional career brought you to Fox News, an unlikely platform
for you, congressman, isn't it not at all? I mean,
it's actually how to change people's minds if you don't
talk to them. Fox News a very powerful news outlet,
and I had a chance to be well to communicate
(22:01):
with people without changing my opinion on anything. Boxers didn't
hire me so they could get me to spot some
kind of a Fox party line that never happened. They
wanted to know what my opinion was. I mean when
I was called by Roger Ailes to consider going to
work for Fox and said, Dennis, I don't agree with
much of anything that you say, but I think you're honest,
(22:24):
and I think that your point of view would be
valuable on our on our network. And so I was never, ever,
in hundreds of appearances, ever asked to take a particular
point of viewer a line even suggested. And what I
found out was that it really set the stage for
(22:45):
a deeper understanding that you can communicate with people even
though you may have strong differences of opinion, and you
get have friendships with people even though you may differ
as far as one important show or another. In fact,
you came out and praised Trump's inauguration speech. Can you
tell me why? And for those of us who are confused,
(23:07):
can you clear that up? Well? You know, I think I,
first of all, I think that being a good American
involved that no matter who wins the election, you give
that person at least a day. I mean, really, it's
like he didn't need to pile on on day one.
He said some things about American trade that I've been
(23:27):
saying for forty years. I thought it was good. Um,
you know, no one would confuse my politics with Donald
Trump's to do anything about me. But I also feel that,
you know, it's the beginning of a new term, and
(23:49):
you want to you want to communicate to all Americans
that as Americans, the elections over, we close ranks and
move the country ahead. Um, that's on day one. On
day two, you can go back to fighting. Right after
an inauguration. I mean, you know, I think it's a
(24:11):
I think as an American, I think at all of
us as Americans, need to consider that day, which is
a celebration of who we are as a country, as
a celebrational process for me, not like a person who
gets elected. You know, I can tell you I've latched
many inaugurations and looked at someone raising the right end
and I didn't vote for that person. But to close
(24:33):
ranks as a country for a day where you celebrate America,
not one person, and you try to indicate an interest
in giving somebody a break and working with them. Um.
And you know, I don't know many times that he
would have had my vote, but I will tell you
that I think that we have to respect the presidency
(24:54):
on the inauguration that Congressman, if I give you a
magic wad. This podcast is called Follow the Profit. If
you could reinvent the American economy, what would you do?
Line by line? Um, stop spending money on wars. We
(25:19):
have blown trillions of dollars on wars that were based
on lies. And there's no other way to put it.
We're not going to rule the world. We can't afford
to rule the world. We have enough. Problem is figuring
out how we're going to run our country rather than
telling somebody else how they should run theirs. I think
(25:40):
a you, I would caution about this aggressive militarism which
is marked America's foreign policy in the last twenty years.
I mean, Biden seemed to be dialing that back as
to Trump in some way, and I would so you know,
(26:00):
you suddenly you have trillions of dollars that you make
available for other priorities, such as rebuilding the infrastructure. Timeres
is doing that right now. Hopefully we have over three
four trillion dollars in needs to rebuild America roads, bridges,
water system, source system. It's an investment in our country.
(26:22):
You put people back to work with good paying jobs.
That's what you need. You need good paying jobs that
trade change all these trade agreements. I mean Americans, America
was a sucker of the world on trade. You know,
whether it was NAFTA, get the China trade, I voted
against everyone that I could. I grew up in an
era where free trade was kind of, you know, a
(26:45):
decided issue. Why were you always suspicious of it because
it didn't have any requirements for workers rights, for wages,
for human rights, prohbitions on slave labor, for environmental quality principles.
I mean, it's we have these principles of sorts in
(27:08):
our country, but when we go to China or other
countries and they don't have any workers rights, any human rights,
any environmental quality principles, what happens. We're actually subsidizing a
degradation of the environment and degredation of humanity, a diminishment
of workers rights, and we're undermining those rights here at home.
(27:32):
I saw that so clearly, and so you know, whether
it was in Seattle and when the teamsters were marching
with the turtles and I had a d eighteen Members
of Congress Center petition demanding that any trade agreement that
came out of Seattle mandatory workers right, human rights, environmental
quality principles, trade trades great, but you gotta have a
(27:55):
level playing field. America has never done that. Look, when
China Trade came up, there were five lobbyists for every
member of Congress. We've been over two thousand lobbiest right
and American leading American corporations were coming to my office.
Boeing came into my office and they asked me to
vote for China Trade. And what I had discovered before
the meeting is they were going to give China the
(28:15):
prototype under development of latest aircraft aircraft manufacturing huge American industry.
Why the hell will we give that away to anybody?
So I I really look at what's best from America,
not you know, and and you know we're about the
rest of the world later take care of America. We
haven't done that well. We've hallowed out our middle class.
(28:37):
No matter what you think about free trade, do you
feel like free trade has really played a role in
kind of you know, places like Ohio have been hollowed
out industry. Draw a straight line from those trade agreements
to the closing down of small factories and you know,
dialing back of big industries. Main street stores start to
(28:59):
go down because people don't have the income they once
said they lose their jobs. They they you know, have
to relocate to other areas. There's quality of life has
been diminished. Yeah, the middle class standing of Americans started
to eroad about fifty years ago. And you know, trade
has been part of it, and our spending on military
(29:22):
has been part of it. Are uh m, you know,
the drugs that came into this country as a result
of our involvement in Southeast Asia, the drugs that came
into this country as a result of our involvement in Afghanistan.
Our country has been under assault and bad decisions have
been made. I love America, but you know, our policies,
(29:48):
foreign policies, domestic policies, Yeah, continue to leave something to
be desired. So I stay involved. So how do you begin?
So it seems like dialing back the military industrial complex
is pretty straightforward, right, no matter what you think, right,
And we're all pro military pro veterans. But that's a
(30:08):
pretty easy issue. This free trade issue is a lot
more dicey because you know, speaking to you today on
a bunch of imported equipment, you know, we have a
situation where China is an ascending power. You know, with
all our stuff that we buy, they use that money
for their global ambitions. How do you even begin to
undo the last twenty years years have just established free trade.
(30:35):
We have to rebuild our strategic industrial bage. So if
we're going to rebuild our infrastructure, we are be using
American steel. You know, you have steel, automotive, aerospace, shipping.
Those are industries that help build America. They helped sustain
us for World Wars. They help they helped build a
middle class. We've let a lot of any road we
need to go back to that, there's not you know,
(30:57):
it's like give me an old time religion. You know,
we need to go back to making things with our
hands by American, you know, or by by American. You
all the chief goods that we buy people are making
next to nothing making them right, and we're not buying
things that are made in America that where people get
a decent ways and some benefits. Got to start thinking
(31:18):
about that. I mean, we have this, you know, multi
trillion dollars economy, and we act like, you know, these
corporate interests really have so loud America. I mean, that's
why I look at it. By by shipping our jobs
out of the country. You know, I come from Cleveland, Ohio. Cleveland,
Ohio was part of the industrial power that built America,
(31:42):
that sustained it. And I see what happened in Cleveland.
I see these trade agreements have wrote it and we
still have to face some of the issues that I've raised,
They're still existed. This sounds like a lot of the
stuff of the Trump administer and tried to pursue. Do
you feel like they were on the right track with
(32:02):
the teriffs with China and whatnot. Let me tell you something.
The dollar bill has an ideology all of its own.
People are moving industries out of the United States and
they continue to do so. I want things made America.
I want I want to make sure our markets are
(32:25):
not going to be destroyed by chips that come in,
you know, the the microprocessing and the high level chips
that are created in Silken Valley. Look that that industry
can be wiped out in a day with a flood
of imports. We have to realize that America has a
(32:49):
great place of innovation and science and technology. You know,
we've made things so that we can be proud of,
but we can't keep an edge if we give away
what it is we've made. And this is where corporations
have a patriotic responsibility to America. They don't really feel it.
(33:09):
They don't pretend they have it, but they I think
they really do. You know, if you're gonna take your
money out of the country, keep it out of the country,
make cheap goods, flood dish country with it, you're not
a good American. I guess what do we do about
rising prices? Though? I guess that's always the big question, right,
which is the opposite of this, Like I'm able to
get this microphone that I'm speaking to you on today
(33:32):
for a low cost because it was likely manufactured abroad.
So do we just eat it as consumers, especially in
an era where you know of Americans get by paycheck
to paycheck. Well, you know, the rising prices go up
even though the labor is cheap. Keep that in mind.
It's not the cost of labor that's CAUs causing prices
(33:53):
to go up. It's the demand and you know, the
go go go Wall Street, uh finance actualization of the economy. Yeah,
I mean, the people have high wages in mind buying
goods that cost more. They're made in this country. But
the goods costs more when they're not made in this country.
(34:16):
Think about how that accelerates the erosion of our economy
and of economic opportunities. So yeah, I have a probably
a slightly different view of that. I'm not happy with
the Democratic Party. You gotta remember NAP the past under
President Clinton. I think it was dead wrong with it
and um and it was one of the reasons why
(34:38):
the knock on effect I think was actually felt by
Hillary Clinton in her attempt to be elected president. I
think that's a real reason why she was knocked out
because if you look at at at Ohio, at Michigan
and states in the Midwest atop a beating when these
(34:59):
traitor is past, you know there was going to be
reckoning that would occur politically just inevitable. So speaking of
that populist politics, you seem like you fashioned yourself as
a populist politician. Is there a room for that in
today's world? Obviously we saw the rise of Trump and
we'll probably see more populist presidents. I don't fashion myself.
(35:22):
I'm a truth teller. I just call it as I
see it. I don't care whatever label people put on me.
That doesn't mean anything to me. But when I see
something that and I just disagree with but I know
it's wrong. Let's speak out. That's what I did after
(35:43):
nine eleven, when our country began to go on the
path towards war against Iraq, I did the analysis. Anyone
who wants to go and just and I'll demonstrate to
them right now now that's the path that have taken,
the truth telling. Go to any search engine type in
(36:04):
pricinage Iraq War Analysis October two, two thousand two, and
you will be surprised to learn that a member of
Congress may had nailed back then that they didn't have
proof that Iraq had anything to do at nine eleven
with Okada throwing nine eleven. Iraq didn't have the intention
(36:26):
the capability of attacking America. Ireq did not have the
weapons of mass destruction, which the administration at the time
we're using it as the pretext to accelerate a military
attack on Iraq. This was not just a tragedy, This
was a monstrous lie that still calls out for justice.
The people who went there to serve this country served
(36:48):
honorably and we love them, but the people who sent
them there not honorable. They lied, and you know, we
we still have to reckon with that that the Iraq,
that the Iraq War was based on a to lie,
and I knew that before we got into it. I
organized on people, mostly Democrats, to vote against the Ireq
War Resolution. You know, that's the why I am. If
(37:10):
I see something, I'll say it and no issues too
big that will cause me to say, oh well, I
can't handle that, it's to war. No, there are things
you have to step forward on. And that's what I did,
just like I did years earlier in Cleveland when I
was called upon to say the sale of the municipal
electric system is wrong, that they're trying to force us
(37:32):
to sell it. It's fundamentally wrong. So just about you know,
the capacity, the willingness to stand up for what's right
and stand against the challenge what's wrong. So are there
any truth tellers out there that we see on television
these days in politics? I don't look for truth tellers.
I follow my own conscience. Well, is there anyone that
(37:57):
we should be watching? No, I'm not gonna advise you
to do that. I think that you know, each person
has to decide for himself or herself, based on their
own moral compass, what's right and wrong. I don't you know,
I'm not. I'm not a devotee of anybody's politics, of
anybody's career. Um, you know, I have a spiritual center
(38:20):
and that's what I followed, and i'm you know, and
make my decisions based on and I not just my
life experience, but on some deeper understanding of whether things
are right or wrong. Well, I hope there's more of
that in politics. On that note, we know your time
is valuable. Congressman. Thank you so much for your time today. Yeah,
(38:42):
I appreciate this incisive, probing interview because it really Yeah,
it causes me to go deeper into these questions, and
I just want to thank you for that. Yeah, of course,
that's my job. That's what journalism is supposed to be
all about. Thanks, thank you so much, And please let
people know about the book if you can't, put it
(39:03):
on a website so people have a chance to look
at it. It's nothing like what that book described as
ever before happened in American politics, at least it never
surfaced before. So thanks so much. Thank you. So One
(39:24):
of the things that I've always liked about Congressman Kucinich
is that he challenges my ideas that I have about America.
I can't think of many things I agree with him on,
but I think it's unique insight that we have to
think about. You know, all these questions about free trade
and the role of the military are important questions for
our generation. We can't let these go anymore. We're seeing
(39:47):
a serious crisis with the middle class in this country
and their ability to just pay for their basic needs,
including rent, healthcare, and education, and a lot of it
is a function of much money they make. They're not
making enough money, So how do we get more money
into the pockets of the middle class? And naturally all
(40:09):
roads lead back to trade, specifically free trade. Me myself,
I'm very pro free trade. I feel like it's the
cloud above your head. You can't really fight it. But
there are questions as to whether we've taken it too far,
whether we do need some homegrown manufacturing. And it's the
same thing with the military. Having a strong military and
(40:33):
being the global leader is very important, but fighting needless
wars in nation building is probably something that we shouldn't
be doing. And that's a bipartisan issue these days. But
in the not so distant past, when I was in college,
the Iraq war was something that was very popular and
today we probably wouldn't see the same thing because of
(40:55):
economic reasons. It's widely apparent that here in America break
the Americans need help. We need secure power, paved roads,
infrastructure in general, a stronger education system. Our needs grow
every day. Everything gets more competitive over time, and if
we don't make investments here at home and grow the
(41:16):
economy of a future and really visualize what we want
to be as a country, will never get there. And
I think that a lot of that process involves talking
to people on the other side and realizing that truth
isn't left or right, it's often in the middle. On
that note, um David Grosso for Follow the Profit, We'll
see you next time. I'd like to thank my entire
(41:43):
production team, including our executive producers Debbie Myers and former
Speaker of the House New Gingrich, as well as our
young interns who are making sure this show is fresh
and relevant for all of you. Follow the Profit is
a production of gen Which three six and I Heart Radio.
Can download us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you
(42:03):
get your podcasts. Part of the Ginglich three network,
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com