November 22, 2021 • 43 mins
"Papa" John Schnatter went all in on starting a business by selling pizzas in the back of his father's tavern in 1984. By the end of 1997, the company known as Papa John's had over 1,500 locations across the country. As an entrepreneur, to be successful, one has to go all in on their endeavor. On this episode, David and John talk about going into business in the ultra-competitive food service industry and the best practices to making a difference as an entrepreneur in that space.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
I'm David Grosso, and you're listening to Follow the Profit.
So I've been doing this podcast for one year, and
to celebrate our one year anniversary, I have someone who
started a company who's commercial is etched in my head.
Better ingredients, better pizza, Papa John's. That's all I heard
(00:23):
growing up. I was barraged with those ads. So here
today I'm following the profit. I have someone who knows
a lot about that company because he himself is known
as Papa John. Of course, he's known by the US
government and by his friends as John Schnatter. How are
you doing. I'm good, David. Thanks for having By the way,
you said the wrong it's better ingredients, better pizza, Pajohn
(00:46):
and uh A and b is happy birthday to you?
Oh well, thank you. I appreciate it. So I got
the cadence wrong. So how did it get started? I
understand that your dad had a tavern and in the
year I was born. I was born in nineteen four
you started what became, you know, a series of food
companies that became Papa John's, right right, Um, it really
(01:10):
started when I was fifteen, worshing dishes, the Rocky subub
for Joe and John and Frank Fondrisi. They had a
little Italian restaurant down next to the river down there
across from jeff Boat and Jefferson, Indiana, and had really
really good Italian food. And I was the dishworsher. I
got hired at two thirty five an hour when I
was fifteen. My parents signed to permit so I could
(01:30):
go to work before I was sixteen. And I hated
worshing dishes, and right across smoldworsh Dishes is where they
made pizzas. And I just couldn't wait to get out
of the dish washing roll and get into the pizza making.
And they had a good write up in the paper.
They got real busy, blew the doors off. Frank Fondrisi
(01:50):
went up front to see people and I was a host,
and I got promoted from dishworshing to making pizzas and
actually fell in love with making pizzas at fifteen. So
tell me a little bit about you know, your adventures
in Papa John. I understand you're not at the company anymore,
but before we get that, how did you build something
(02:10):
into one of the most recognizable brands in America? Today. Oh,
if we knew then what we know now, we shouldn't
being able to do what we did. You know what
I mean? It was we just we had two fundamental beliefs.
If you took care of your team members, your employees,
made a good product, and feel care of our customers,
(02:31):
you know we'd be successful. And you know, take care
of your employees, put out a product you're passionate about.
And that was the two pillars from the gig go.
And you were obsessed with the taste of pizza, and
pizza is of course food service is super competitive, but
pizza is among the most competitive sectors of food service.
So what possessed you to go into the hardest of
(02:53):
the hardest in food service? Um, it's all I knew.
I'm a pizzas at Rocky Subub in High schoo All.
I'm a pizzas a Greek's pizzeria in um Month, Indiana
to get through college. UM, and I just like making pizzas.
UM came up with the idea for Papa John's two
as an undergraduate student at Ball State. UM had the name,
(03:17):
the logo, the recipes, equipment, and hit it in a
cardboard box, put it in my closet back home in Jeffersonville.
Graduated from college an eight three. I had one more
class to finish, an eighty four that at night back
in the southern Indiana. And then we got the bar.
Solvent got it out of bankruptcy, and I thought, Okay,
we're selling one dollar big burghers, fifties SI game of pool,
(03:40):
fifty cent beer. What if we did a five dollar pizza?
And so that was the genesis that started at all. So,
a lot of people are big pizza fans. So what
makes a good pizza and why did you make the
pizza that we've all consumed that Papa John's the way
it is today. I think the key to the pizzas
really the das. And you know the foundations the pizza dough.
(04:03):
And if you don't have good dough, you don't have
a good dough recipe. Um, then you're you probably don't
have a very good foundation. Um. Then the pizza sauce. Um,
there's paste, and then there's fresh pack. Fresh packs about
twice as much money. But it's my opinion, four times
the flavor and then the cheese is important, but it's
(04:25):
more of a conductor of flavor. Um. You can put
cheddar or monster in your mazzarola and make the cheese flavor.
But cheese is really the conductor for the dough and
the sauce and the ingredients. And then you know, we
slice the green peppers and onions. We use really good,
high quality meats and um. You know when you start
(04:47):
of a good ingredients, that's the key, which you also
have to put it together correctly, and you can start it.
You can have good ingredients and we I can show
you Papa john pizza made with good ingredients not put
together right, and one that's good ingredients and put together right.
In it's night and day. So you really got to
do both. So what was different when you started your
(05:09):
business back in the day. Would you be able to
do the same thing in today's world. I think we'd
be successful. And we'll talk more about entrepreneurship and drive
and passion, sacrifice, commitment, persistence. Um. But I started Papa
John's in eighty four. That was Reaganomics, and um, Roald
Reagan was really pro small business and spirit, emotional leadership.
(05:33):
Direction starts at the top, and I was fortunate to
have a president who really wanted the economy to thrive
on a small business, of which I happened to be one.
So I think I was lucky found the company in
eighty four. Um, it's much more regulation today. UM, it's
less friendly into small business. UM. And that concerns me. UM.
(05:57):
I think small business owners still killed, still can be successful,
but I think it's gonna be a little harder and
take a little longer. Was there anyone you admired when
you got started in the fast food industry or someone
you admired today? Um? I worked in Wendy's, his friends
with R. David Thomas always admired R. David Colonel Sanders
(06:20):
started selling chicken five miles down the road where I'm
at today. Um. Jim Patterson, Uh, you know, he did
Cheat Cheese, he did Rally's Hamburgers, he did Long John Silver's. Um,
he was a big influence. And then I read a
book UM by John Love Behind the Arches, and John
Loved did an in depth overview of how Ray coroc
(06:44):
and his team uh pulled it off. And I'd say
the way we engineered franchising was probably McDonald's and Ray
croc um. The fresh pack sauce was Rocky Subhub and
Greeks and the concepts of the franchising. I was just
in our backyard with Jerry's Long John Silver Chee Cheeses, Wendy's, Donato's, KFC,
(07:07):
Texas Roadhouse, Whitecastle, all that's in this corridor between here
in Columbus, Ohio. So, UM, I was kind of at
the right place, at the right time, with the right idea.
Isn't that funny? I never realized that that there's so
much concentration of fast food restaurants in your region. Just
Wendy's in KFC is right there down the street. What
(07:28):
do you think it is? Do you think it's a
good proxy for America? I hear Columbus, Ohio is the
proxy for just general America. Do you think that also
is the case in in the part of Kentucky you're
in in Indiana as well? If you take that Columbus
Ohio UM les in Kentucky, Louisville down Evans. If you
take that corridor, UM, every concept that's been successful, you know,
(07:49):
in those three or four markets, those two or three demographics,
has been able to go national. So I don't know
what it is about the Columbus like in the Louisville corridor. UM,
but I mean we could go on again, Donado's, Bob Evans,
you know, White Castle, Texas Roadhouse, along John Silver's Chee Cheese, KFC, um, Wendy's.
(08:13):
I mean, it just goes on and on the amount
of success that franchise operators have had in this corridor
that have been able to take it, you know, worldwide,
in certainly country wide. Yeah, what do you think about
fast cash weal John, because that's something we've seen recently
in years. You know, Chipotle, it's that arrived. What's your
take on that? Well bothing? You certainly can't argue with
(08:36):
their success, their stock price, um, the like Blaze Pizza.
I think it's very good. I think it's a very
good product, but it doesn't travel well. So my only
drawback to Fast Casual would be, let's make sure it travels.
Let's make sure you can deliver it because right now
the game is being at home. Home is the game.
(08:57):
So let's just you know, let's just you know. I
was going through Wendy's last week. I went up to
the door to walk in. It's locked. They were lying
around the block through the draft through. So I never
thought Wendy's would spend you know, two million dollars on
bricks and sticks and dirt and then build and in
(09:18):
a dining room with a you know, soda fountain and
a bar and all that salad bar, you know, condiment bar,
and yet shut it down and just do the drive
through Starbucks. You know if you go in there, they're
kind of empty these days. But the drive throughs packs.
I think you the car and the home was where
you want to be. And if you have a fast
casual concept that can do that or can compete in
(09:41):
this kind of environment, I'm all board. Usually fast casual
foods a little better. Yeah, well, I guess Rallies and
Checkers was ahead of the game, right. They don't really
have a place to set just those patio tables outside. Yeah,
we'll talk about Rallies and Checkers. Um, that's a simple deal.
You've got twice as many drive throughs, so you're twice
as fast. That's your point of positioning. So if I
(10:01):
was to run that business you were talking about, our
point of differentiation is quality. Where more America's largest independent
pizzeria period in the conversation, better ingredients, better pizzas a
quality positioning. So everything we did we positioned, Uh, communicating
around that strategic position. Rallies, all you gonna do is
(10:22):
make a really good hamburger with good ingredients, good fries,
simple menu, and you're twice as fast because you've got
twice as many drafts. It's it's simply a fact. That's
their point of differentiations. So whether it's Nascar or drags
or anything Red Bull, anything that's fast is Rallies and Checkers.
Now they lost that with the big view for they
(10:42):
did all this other thing. The opposite skated off their positioning,
which was speed like Domino speed into other venues, and
he kind of solved that brand. I think at stores.
So tell me about you know, you were the face
of Papa John. So it's kind of like Colonel Sanders
(11:03):
right where he was like the face of a movement.
So that's pretty unusual in fast food. I think about
Steve Owls who started Chipotle. You know, he had a
lot of the same passion you did, you know, for
better ingredients and all that, but you were in the face.
Tell me what that was like. Do people recognize you
when you when you when you go out in public,
because that I saw a lot of commercials growing up.
I was the right demographic John. I'm thirty seven years old,
(11:24):
so in the early nineties I saw a lot of
Papa John's commercials. Yeah, Jack Try recommended we become the
face of the brand at the turn of the century.
So we tagged and with better ingredients, better pizza, actually
had a cold and tile because you know, we were
taking ourselves too seriously. Um, But Jordan's Zimmerman really is
the one that put um Papa's in the House in
(11:45):
two thousand and nine, two thousand and eight on the map,
and I remember him coming up with the concept of John,
you gotta get out of suit and tie. You gotta
you know, you need to wear jeans, untuck your shirt,
wear boots so people think you're a real person. Back then,
they thought I was an actor stand in. They didn't
really think I was Papa John. So that was all
Jordan's Emmerman and Papa's in the House. But I remember
(12:09):
the day he came to headquarters with that concept, those storyboards,
and I thought, Okay, hey, this is gonna sell a
lot of pizza and be it's gonna change my life,
you know, because you understand, Papa John's delivery person goes
into somebody's house. You know, you've got a mother with kids,
(12:30):
so you're entering their domain. So you have to have
a better product. You have to have better ingredients. You
have to you know, you have to make sure your
restaurants not only are better with ingredients, but better with
the staff, better with cleanliness, better with the image, better
with anything. So I immediately knew that I thought it
would work, but that, you know, you put yourself in
(12:51):
the crosshairs with regards to pr I have a question,
how are you skinning? You're really fit and you're a
fast food entrepreneur. How do you pull that off? We
we've been very religious about our workouts. UH. Store number
(13:15):
two was Clarksville. There was a gym behind the Clarksville store,
And even when we were broke at three o'clock, I said,
you know, I'm going to the gym for an hour
and a half. You guys can't hold this together for
an hour and a half. I'm not much of a leader,
but we are religious about workouts and we just don't miss. UH.
My high school baseball coach and I we lift weights
(13:36):
a couple of times a week. UM, we've been working
out for forty five years. We in forty years, haven't
missed ten workouts snow, gas, rain wrecks, So you know, Uh,
consistency is really the key to fitness. And if you know,
if you exercise, makes some attempt at the diet. Um,
(13:57):
I had a lot of pizza, always have, but I
don't eat four or five six slices. You know, you
eat one or two slices and you enjoy it, but
you know that you know every slices got three or
fifty calories. And if you need a whole pizza, you
know you're looking at you know, six slices and two
thousand cowries. You've pretty well done your whole meal for
the whole day. But I'd say fitness is a state
(14:18):
of mind. Um. You know, I'm big on making sure
you have the right water and vitamins. I think you
gotta go get a good night's sleep, and I think
you got to be consistent with your workouts. But I
love working out once. Once I get that workout and
I feel like I owned the day. So you're a
morning workout kind these days, I guess I like getting
it done in the morning. We usually ride mountain bikes
(14:39):
at you know, six thirty seven in the morning. Um,
and it's nice when you've when you've got that, you know,
our and a half to our ride in um By,
you know eight thirty and nine o'clock, you feel like
you own the day. Um. With that being said, this
morning in Louisville was in the twenties. So you don't
want to get on the mountain bike when it's twenty
nine degrees. That's why you gotta go to Florida. But
(15:02):
I like working out at lunch. I like um working,
I like riding the bike in the afternoon. Um. But
the main thing is just get it in, you know,
get it done and get it over with and you know,
go on about your day. So you see discipline in
your physical pursuits. Tell me about your entrepreneurial pursuits. Obviously,
Papa John's is your biggest you know, claim fame, but
(15:25):
what what's your lifestyle like? What is the lifestyle of
an entrepreneur like you? Like? Well, um, an entrepreneur you've
gotta be all in. And that's one of my issues
with the president administration and its policies. UM, nothing political,
but um, you will overregulate the small business and do
silly things like you cut off the keystone pipeline, which
(15:46):
is four percent of production. Um, you create an artificial
labor shortage because you pay people not to work. Um,
you make a very arduous, difficult task of running a
small business even harder. So I think the two things
I would would really suggest as you have to be
persistent and you know, make sacrifice, and you really got
(16:10):
to be passionate about it. If you love it and
you want it and you're good at it, you're you're
probably going to be successful sooner or later, whether you're
a dentist, an architect, pizza maker, you know, an engineer.
If you're really good at it and you really love it,
sooner or later you can break through because you just
simply outworked the other guy. You know, It's like, you know,
(16:33):
it's like a drippy false you just wear them out.
And we just outworked them, hustle them. We weren't that
much smarter than they were, and um, you know, finally
we we just we just finally won with a better pizza. Yeah,
which is very interesting because the time sure have changed,
you know, not only as politics differently, but norms are differently.
Would you still be at Papa John's today if you
(16:54):
hadn't had this big pr blow up that happened, I
hope not um again, and we had a succession plan
in place. We hit store five thousand, we took the
stock from six A shared eighty nine bucks. We had
a good run, and again, you know how much money
do you need? You know how much more do you
(17:14):
have to prove? So I was ready to step down
and kind of enjoyed, you know the fruits of our
labor um. Spend more time with the family, get some
more workouts in, and not be like I mean again,
when you're running five thousand stores and you have a
hundred thousand employees, you're full seven. Even if you're only
(17:37):
working sixt eighteen hours a day, you're still thinking about
it when you're sleeping, because you have to to be competitive.
So I was ready to step down. I told the
board just to listen, I'm gonna go on the beach
and take it easy. Um. You know, some guys are
ready to find somebody else to run it better than
I can. And I guess so, you know, I don't
(17:57):
want to dwell on this on the interview. What exactly
happen and that precipitated your exit? Well, the money does
strange things. To people. And the company was making two
hundred main a year and even off two million. And
your Papa John, You're getting all this attention, you're getting
all this notoriety, you have all this influence, you have
all this power, and I think that does strange things
(18:18):
to people. And we had a board of director Mark
Shapiro and CEO Steve Ritchie, and Shapiro gotten Richie's here
and said, hey, we can run this better than John.
Let's just kick him out. Well, they couldn't find any
way to kick me out, so they papricated, uh, this
race thing, and they basically paid an agency laundry service
(18:39):
who was supposed to be there to help enhance and
embellige and make the image better, actually went below the
surface and set me up and sabotaged it. Took a
false narrative to Forbes, well verse what I said. Forbes
didn't do their fact fact checking. They printed it, the
rest of media piled on and blew it up. So
(19:00):
it was just simple greed, arrogance, jealousy, um, you know, envy,
all the traits that are negative with us human beings,
and um, they used a false narrative to steal the
company because they wanted that to underminy year and they
wanted to be Papa John. So I guess after after
(19:20):
that whole scandal, you you gave money to a historically
black college, you came out and spoke on the record,
you released the recording I saw earlier this year. How
did you feel about because this is something fairly new
or I guess people would argue with me, this whole
idea of cancel culture. What's your very dangerous, very destructive. Um.
(19:41):
You can take a thirty four year career, which account
um Rocky subub was probably more like a forty three
year career, and one mishap, or in this case, one
falsehood can really do a lot of damage. Unfortunately, I
have the truth on my side, I have the facts,
and I have a tape that says they set me up.
(20:03):
I mean they're they're guilty as charged. So and also
have the resources financially just set the record straight. So, UM,
I think the records pretty well straight. People UM that
look at this kind of shake their head and dis
belief that a board of directors of a public company
and at CEO could do something this outrageous. UM. But
(20:24):
at the end of the day, UM, I tried to
save the employees they let they hurt my employees, um
and I tried to help the community. They left Louisville, Kentucky,
my hometown. I'm worried about the suppliers, but that's kind
of out of my hand. So the only last resort
I had was to make sure the franchise these are okay.
(20:45):
And whether it's COVID or luck whatever, everything that's happened
with trapping people at home and paying people not to work,
us being at home with money has helped us at
Papa John's, and the franchisees right now are doing well.
So let's just hope that that continues. Yeah, I saw
that the second they took over, they moved the headquarters
(21:05):
to Atlanta, Georgia. And you're a very local guy. You're
involved in many, you know, causes in your hometown. How
did you feel that? I was terrible. I mean, there's
four hundred families in Louisville. They lost their job, they
lost in the livelihood, they got left behind. I think
it's a terrible thing to do. And that's just how
ruthless this Border Directors is. They basically use race. They
(21:29):
used the black community, you know, Shaquille O'Neil is just
a pond in a tool for the Papa John's to
hide behind the race card by doing something was actually racist.
When you use a black man to cover up the
fact that you stole another man's company on a false narrative,
(21:51):
that's about as racist as you get. But um, like
you said, the stadiums arenas Zoos Kids Center, scholarships for universities.
We were heavily involved in this community. And to watch
my company that I founded just pick up and leave Louisville, Kentucky,
you know, um, you know, cold handed broke my heart,
(22:15):
but there was nothing I could do about it. But
that just gives you an idea how ruthless this board
of directors are. That you know, people, um are objects
of self gained. You know, human beings are not important.
And that is foreign to me because again, we weren't
in the pizza biness. We were in the people business,
(22:36):
and I felt as long as we took care of
our people, we sell all the pizza in the world.
This company now today is a whole different outlet that
they're just employees, they're dispensable, uh, dispensable, and they're just
objects of self gain. That scares me. I'm I'm a
share older Papa Joze. I bought shares in the last
hundred days and it's done quite well for me over
(22:58):
the years. But the first two or three things that
they did when I left was they threw our culture way,
which our culture was based on fundamental principles of collaborative
alliance and integrity and mutual respect and kindness. And when wins,
they do that. That's the first thing they did is
take the principles that would we found in the company,
built the company out the door. Second thing they did
(23:21):
they took out the measuring system, the matrix for quality
um and if you don't measure it, they're not gonna
do it. And thus today our consistency is probably as
bad as it's been in you know, twenty years. And
the third thing is they didn't really want to take
care of the people the way I did. We had
some five or thirty man a year in bonuses to
(23:43):
the employees. That was the first thing they got rid
of was bonuses to the employees because I wanted the
employees to feel like owners. So you got a company
now without a runner, it's really lost its way with
its quality because it's inconsistent. Um, they don't value people
the way we did no days and you know it's
it's not principle based. And if you don't have principles,
(24:06):
you don't have anything. So how long can you do this?
Behave like this? I think for financial institutions and private equity,
I don't think they care. I think they get in,
they prop it up with short term gimmicks or earnings,
and then you know, when it crashes, they leave other
people holding the bag. So we shall see. But the
(24:27):
main thing is the franchise. These right now are healthy,
they're doing well, and despite all the things that corpus doing,
I hope that continues to be the way things are.
But this is happening all over the economy, right We
see that this the small business is kind of going
the way of the Jodo bird. And the idea that
bigger is better is everywhere. Food service, pharmacies, airlines, you
(24:47):
name it. It It seems to be going everywhere. And it
seems like a lot of companies like Papa John's that
you're suggesting, that had a culture, that had a founder,
that had an ethos, that had you know, brand guidelines,
are all being sacri fight at the altar of short
term profit and profitability. Quite right, Well, what that does
That leaves the door opened for my next venture or
(25:08):
for the next John shot, and it comes along that
really wants to take care of people and wants to
make a good product. Because to your point, the product
uh in service in the image aspect is really deteriorated
because that's not the focus. The focus is on short
term profits. Um. But the penglamin sweed swung that far,
(25:30):
pendulum will swing back this far, and when that comes,
that's when you have to be ready emotionally, physically, intellectually.
You have to have plenty of dry powder and you've
got to be ready to pounce. Check the l a
right now? Is that check the lands in the best
possible position of all of them. It's private. Um, they're
very spiritual, they love their employees. Their managers get half
(25:52):
the bonus. I mean our managers get They got fifty um, Dan,
Cathy and Bobba and that team down and they got
it together. Yeah. What is it about Chick fil A?
When you go to Chick fil a, right, you feel
like the services quick And it's not the quickest place,
by the way, it's it's actually slower than McDonald's and whatnot.
But for some reason, you get a feeling that you
(26:14):
feel kind of good. People are smiling, people are friendly,
the food is fairly good. Like I guess what I'm
trying to suggest, John, is that culture matters in the
I think it does, especially in the service industry, like um,
you know the restaurants. I mean, I think they got
it together with the product and service. I mean, granted
they're lying all the way around the building, but they
(26:35):
get you too quick. Um that's all for a couple
of problems. Everything is always fresh and hot because they're
moving so quick. I think Dan Cathy and um you
Kathy family operated at extremely high level when it comes
to personal integrity. I think that's a huge asset. I mean,
they they just have nothing but goodwill and good heart
(26:55):
towards their fellow man. They really love humanity and they
love their faith, and they walk to talk, and then
they're very spiritual people. They functioned at a very high
level on an emotional spiritual level. We're talking out here
about stock options and they're talking up here about the
higher power and doing the right thing. And I think
(27:17):
that's going to give them a tremendous advantage moving forward.
I think they're gonna be I mean, what's the average
KFC do a million too and chickla does five millions.
I mean they're both selling chicken, they both have the
same real estate. What's the difference. I think it's a
little bit of difference on the quality in the service. Um.
I think there's a lot of difference on the image.
(27:37):
I think there's a tremendous amount of difference on these
quality of employees. And then I think they operate from
universal principles of fairness, trustworthiness, mutual respect, kindness, and luck.
I think that's a huge advantage. So one of the
(28:01):
things that's been interesting about the fastest growing UH fast
food chains are that they're not really franchise able. I mean,
Chick fil A has sort of a franchise model, but
Chipotle doesn't, Starbucks doesn't. And what I see is a
lot fewer options for franchisees than there used to be,
especially in fast growing areas. I had the founder of
Dunkin Donuts on here on my podcast when I first
(28:24):
started almost a year ago, and he was saying, it
has a lot to do with those companies want to
keep it internally because it's so profitable per store. What
do you see the landscape like? Is there two franchise
still get a fair shake at joining a network or
a brand that is quickly Absolutely. I think to answer
your question, because you answered your own question, is that,
(28:45):
UM the reason Starbunction, Chick fil A, and Chavolta don't
franchises because they're making so much money. But if you
have UM something you're passionate enough long John Silver's Fish,
Chick fil A, Chicken, Papa John's piz or whatever, and
you're a leader in your category. Now you may be
a leader like Domino's Speed, Little Caesar's Price, Pizza's Farriday,
(29:06):
Papa John's quality. But as long as your leader and
you have a unit economic model that works, you've got
those three circles. UM good to great, UM the Tom
Collins Um, you've got something that's franchise able. I don't
think Chick fil A and Starbucks are Chapulte have a
problem selling franchises. I think they don't sell them because
(29:27):
they don't need to. UM. The reason we franchise Papa John's.
We had the capital, we had the expertise, we had
the institutional knowledge, We just didn't have the manpower the
management ability to run five thousand stores. We could run
six hundred, but you know, our limiting limited and limiting
aspect of growth was you know, management. So if you
(29:51):
could go, if you right now, we're forty years younger,
what would you do? What would be the venture you start?
I would do a whole lot of different what I did,
because us really, you would do it all over again.
I mean the hand I get to play today, I
mean and to have, you know, they have to do
it over again. I mean the sacrifice and the persistence
(30:14):
and the ups and downs. They were great and I
loved him and I even loved you know. We made
a lot of mistakes, probably did a lot of things
we wish we hadn't have done. But that's what you
have to do to learn. So, you know, I turned
sixty next month. Hopefully, you know, when I'm sixty five,
I'll be a better man than I am today. And
hopefully today I'm a better man than I was twenty
(30:37):
years ago. But the thought of doing this all over again,
I mean, we were so blessed and so lucky um
to be at the right place at the right time,
to be able to pull this off to get through
that window of opportunity, whether it's Reaganomics, whether it's the
fact that Dominoes and pizza that Little Caesars didn't they
didn't even take notice of me. He's just a guy
(30:58):
for Lottalk Ducky leaves us a small town will never
make it, and they let me get through that limit
of opportunity to store two thousand. So I got scaled once,
we got scaled in the game. When the game was over,
we were gonna get the three, four or five thousand stores.
But I don't have any regrets as I sit here today. Um,
you know I could have done some things different or better. Yeah,
(31:19):
but I could have done a lot of things a
lot worse and not as good. So I'll take I'll take.
You know, some people Bill Gates, you know, he's got
four aces, war Buffett, he's got a royal flush. You know,
some people get three twos. You know, I don't know
if I got four jacks or three queens in a
full house, I don't know. But I've got a good
(31:39):
hand of cards. And we played her for all they
were worth. We ran a good race. We run our race,
and now in the world's kind of my oyster, like
a Papa John's. I don't want to be employee. I
don't want to be a Rob Lynch or Shaquille O'Neal.
Let's let them wake up and film for three days.
Let Rob Lynch wake up and deal with h this way,
(32:00):
a shortage in this UM supply chain issue and all
this political you know, partisan and the vision of the country.
I don't want to be a board of directors because
it's the liability, I mean just it's just not worth
you know, a couple hundred thousand a year to have
that kind of exposure. And last but not least, you
(32:21):
can be a shareholder. Well, I like being a shareholder.
Let somebody else come up and do wake up every
day and work their tail off and do what I
did for thirty or four years and make me richer,
you know. I like that. So UM shareholder, UM board
of director employee. Right now, I just want to be
a shareholder. And then again, if something comes along, um,
(32:44):
you know, then then maybe take a look at it.
But it's got to match the four things in my soul,
which is it's got to be in my soul, it's
gotta be in my being it's gotta feel heart. Who
is it's got a better humanity? You know, I don't
want to. I started in the bar business. Um, pizza,
I love pizza, but it is it's a lot of calaries. Um.
I want to do something that actually makes people happier
(33:07):
and healthier. And yeah, I'm more spiritual. Three, it has
to be scalable. I like big stuff. I'm looking at
something and go where we're you know, not what it is,
what it could be. And fourth is it has to
be sustainable. I don't want to be feeding something every month.
You know, I'm a kiddie. I want something that's self supporting.
So when something comes along to meet those five bore criteria,
(33:29):
and I'll take a hard look at it, and I'll
jump back in the game. Uh, in the interim with
these ridiculous peas and a shortage of really good companies,
you're better off just you know, get on a horse
that's successful, that's established, it's a good business, and maybe
pay some dividends and just ride that and let somebody
else do all the heavy lifting. Yeah. I want to
(33:51):
take a moment to talk about that, because I know
we don't want to talk about politics, but politics and
economics are kind of you know, tethered together. And really
where politics meets economics, we know, sadly politics wins. So
what do you think about the current world we live
in today? You know, higher than normal inflation, labor shortages,
high regulation, big business squashing small business. You know, we
(34:12):
can go on and on about all the troubles that
we have in this country today economically. No matter what
you're partisan affiliation. Well, I'm an optimist. You know, I
love people, I love humanity. Um. I get pretty upset
when I see some of the things going on the
division of the country. You know, as Lincoln said, you know,
(34:33):
house divided cannot staying. I think we need to come together. Um. Again,
maybe I'm over optimistic, but I think there's a ground
swelling for people to say, Okay, enough enough, let's get
off the hamster wheel. Let's start stop stepping on each other.
Let's pull together as humanity, um, and see if we
(34:59):
can't make every about these lives better together. And I
think it starts with you know, your health, your fitness,
your friends, your family, your interpersonal relationships. I think you know,
I think business is fantastic for making people's lives better
and making you know, people's standard living go up. But
I think clean business is good business. I think it's
(35:20):
got to be done with um, with integrity and mutual
respect and regard for what's in everybody's best interests. So
I'm I'm positive on human race. I don't like a
lot of things I see UM, and I really don't
like the hypocrisy of main street media. UM. You know,
(35:40):
the Democratic Republican at electorate level, they're they're all good people.
They just want to get up, make a living, make
their lives better, make their family lives better. And they're
just trying to do what's right. And you know, for them,
they're not trying to hurt anybody. It's not like that. Now.
The problem you got is the progressive left elite. They
(36:04):
will scortch the earth for prior and control. And you
saw what happened last night in the election, um, the
Pendulman swinging. And I think that the elite, progressive left
the people that are really kind of pulling the strings
because Biden is really not running the show. You know,
there's there's other folks. So whereas in Gates UM that
(36:25):
are really doing things behind the scenes, He's just the
puppet and he's kind of a hard puppet demands because
he's pretty clumsy. Um Uh, the things they'll do with
total discordard for humanity, now that concerns me. And so
that begs the question is why are they doing it?
You know, all you have to do is logal, just
pick on we go Venezuela. Look what that economy did.
(36:47):
Look at Cuba, but you could go to Chili and
forties crashed with socialism, then free markets came in. They
went up, then they crashed it again, then it went up.
Now they're trying to crap. I mean, so when you,
regardless of your politics, if you had that policy, if
Reagan was doing some of the policies today back in
eighty four, I printing money, spending tray ins like money
(37:11):
grows on tree, um, no borders, leaving eighty five billion
dollars or the assets to the Afghanistan. If he was
doing all and making a labor shortage, artificial labor shortage
because they paid people stay at home. If Reagan went
that was his policies, regardless of his party, I still
would have been against that. So, um, these policies happen,
(37:33):
you know, they quickly. It's been ten months, and you
look at where we're at. You look at the evaluation
of the dollar and what these deficits have done to
the purchasing power of the average family. It's it's scary
and and and the two things I try to leave
um the viewers with when I do interviews. This one
(37:53):
is if they spend trains, if they print money like
it's you know, going out of style. It's a hidden
tax on you, the middle class, for the rest of
your life. It devalues the dollar. The second thing we're
getting to watch in real time is you play with
free market dynamics. Free markets work, and in this case
(38:15):
we artificially um uh intruded on free market labor. We
pay people to stay at home and not work. Look
at the consequences. Shelves are empty. You got a hundred
of ships that can't get unloaded. The quality of goods
and services you go. I want to Starbucks last week,
um it was thirties five minutes to get a couple
(38:37):
of coffee. Thirty five minutes. So when socialism and fascism
give you empty shells and give you a deterioration in
the product and service, and that's what we're experiencing the answer,
Get rid of all these regulations, get arms around our
national budget, and let free markets and entrepreneurs do what
(38:59):
they do, which there's not a large company that didn't
start out as a small company, usually one or two
people's idea. Let the innovation, the new ideas, the tinkering,
the trial there. Let the entrepreneur do what they do.
They'll figure out a better way. They'll figure out about
the mouse trap. They'll make things more productive, more efficient,
(39:20):
they'll enhance technology, they'll enhance experience, and they'll make the
whole society better. That's what free markets do. That sounds
very convincing, but doesn't seem to be a popular opinion
these days. People like control, politicians like control. We you know,
we have a divided country where no one really speaks
up for free market economics, not even on the right.
You know, we have a situation where, you know, we
(39:42):
don't have a lot of confidence in free markets, even
though they have created modern America in our way of life.
It seems like there's a disconnect there and understanding between
the public and these ideas, which they're not really ideas.
Job there every day, I mean, you're speaking my language.
I think it's it's really interesting. Regardless of your politics,
it's really important to remember that the entrepreneur, the inventor
(40:05):
and all of that have the solution, is not the God.
I don't know. I think if you look at last night,
I think you just saw a giant swing of the
pendulum coming back to less government, less regulation. Um, not
all this oversea where you got the r S stoopid down.
You know you're checking out for five in our bucks. Um,
you got you know, big brother watching over your shoulder.
(40:26):
I think that the social I don't want to throw
the Democratic Party in here because I don't want to political,
but the far left gotta got a taste that you're
trying to take this country too far over here where
money does grow on trees and arithmetics and opinion, and
you don't have to work because you're you're entitled because
somebody else has it. So you said at home or
(40:47):
work while other people work? While you said at home,
I mean it's a losing proposition. But they arithmetic is
that's my favorite quote of the whole of the whole interview.
But well, John, where do we where do we follow you?
I know you're on TikTok. I've seen that you have
made an effort to you know, uh, weigh in on
(41:09):
the social media that works. Were sullenly on Instagram and
TikTok the Papa John Snyder. Um, we have a lot
of fun with it if we keep it light. Um,
I think right now our society needs. I think we
just need a lot of positive, you know, collaborative kind
thoughts towards each other. So we we try to keep it, uh,
(41:30):
you know, very low key and very light. But we
have fun with it. And I poked fun of myself
and the kids seem to like it. Um, when you
were saying you were born in eighty four, I just said, wow,
you just made me feel real old. But um, social
media something I didn't grow up with. We didn't have computers. Remember,
we were still in a cigar box with um, you know, tickets,
(41:53):
belly tickets. So, um, the computer thing is something we
didn't understand. I didn't understand, and we really had to
adapt because you know, it's kind of where it's headed
with this. So we a lot of fun on social media.
I think there's between Instagram and tick off, there's a
little over eight hundred thousand viewers. So um, not a
(42:14):
lot of years, but enough that I can have a
lot of fun to get a lot of feedback. I'll
be happy to follow you. Thank you so much for
taking the time to talk to me today, and all
the best to you and your family. God blessed, Happy holidays, David,
thanks for having me. Well, that was a fun interview.
You know, someone like Papa John is someone who you know,
(42:36):
really creates the trends and has so much important insight
into how to build a business, how to be successful,
and ultimately how to be a disciplined person. So I
want to thank him for his time. You know. Follow
the Profit has been a really fun project of mine
and I've really enjoyed talking to everyone, especially food service people.
The funny thing is that I don't consider myself a foodie,
but throughout this podcast in the past year, I've learned
(42:57):
a lot about the food service business. We've had the
founder of Condonuts, We've had the head chef of Blaze Pizza,
We've and now Papa John. So if you want to
take a listen, go back to our library of fascinating
interviews from these trend setting entrepreneurs. I want to thank
my team Scott, Rob Cheyenne and everyone else at bowld
TV who made this a reality. Of course, i'd like
(43:19):
to thank our executive producers, Debbie Myers and New Gingrich
and UH. If you're liking this podcast, please leave us
a review, give us five stars, or leave us a
bad review. We always want to know what you're thinking
about the podcast. I'm your host, David Grassa if you
haven't noticed by now, and of course, as always followed.
The profit is a production of ging Which three six
(43:39):
and I Heart Radio. For more podcasts like this one,
visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever
you get your podcast. Part of the Gang which
I'm David Grosso, and you're listening to Follow the Profit.
So I've been doing this podcast for one year, and
to celebrate our one year anniversary, I have someone who
started a company who's commercial is etched in my head.
Better ingredients, better pizza, Papa John's. That's all I heard
(00:23):
growing up. I was barraged with those ads. So here
today I'm following the profit. I have someone who knows
a lot about that company because he himself is known
as Papa John. Of course, he's known by the US
government and by his friends as John Schnatter. How are
you doing. I'm good, David. Thanks for having By the way,
you said the wrong it's better ingredients, better pizza, Pajohn
(00:46):
and uh A and b is happy birthday to you?
Oh well, thank you. I appreciate it. So I got
the cadence wrong. So how did it get started? I
understand that your dad had a tavern and in the
year I was born. I was born in nineteen four
you started what became, you know, a series of food
companies that became Papa John's, right right, Um, it really
(01:10):
started when I was fifteen, worshing dishes, the Rocky subub
for Joe and John and Frank Fondrisi. They had a
little Italian restaurant down next to the river down there
across from jeff Boat and Jefferson, Indiana, and had really
really good Italian food. And I was the dishworsher. I
got hired at two thirty five an hour when I
was fifteen. My parents signed to permit so I could
(01:30):
go to work before I was sixteen. And I hated
worshing dishes, and right across smoldworsh Dishes is where they
made pizzas. And I just couldn't wait to get out
of the dish washing roll and get into the pizza making.
And they had a good write up in the paper.
They got real busy, blew the doors off. Frank Fondrisi
(01:50):
went up front to see people and I was a host,
and I got promoted from dishworshing to making pizzas and
actually fell in love with making pizzas at fifteen. So
tell me a little bit about you know, your adventures
in Papa John. I understand you're not at the company anymore,
but before we get that, how did you build something
(02:10):
into one of the most recognizable brands in America? Today. Oh,
if we knew then what we know now, we shouldn't
being able to do what we did. You know what
I mean? It was we just we had two fundamental beliefs.
If you took care of your team members, your employees,
made a good product, and feel care of our customers,
(02:31):
you know we'd be successful. And you know, take care
of your employees, put out a product you're passionate about.
And that was the two pillars from the gig go.
And you were obsessed with the taste of pizza, and
pizza is of course food service is super competitive, but
pizza is among the most competitive sectors of food service.
So what possessed you to go into the hardest of
(02:53):
the hardest in food service? Um, it's all I knew.
I'm a pizzas at Rocky Subub in High schoo All.
I'm a pizzas a Greek's pizzeria in um Month, Indiana
to get through college. UM, and I just like making pizzas.
UM came up with the idea for Papa John's two
as an undergraduate student at Ball State. UM had the name,
(03:17):
the logo, the recipes, equipment, and hit it in a
cardboard box, put it in my closet back home in Jeffersonville.
Graduated from college an eight three. I had one more
class to finish, an eighty four that at night back
in the southern Indiana. And then we got the bar.
Solvent got it out of bankruptcy, and I thought, Okay,
we're selling one dollar big burghers, fifties SI game of pool,
(03:40):
fifty cent beer. What if we did a five dollar pizza?
And so that was the genesis that started at all. So,
a lot of people are big pizza fans. So what
makes a good pizza and why did you make the
pizza that we've all consumed that Papa John's the way
it is today. I think the key to the pizzas
really the das. And you know the foundations the pizza dough.
(04:03):
And if you don't have good dough, you don't have
a good dough recipe. Um, then you're you probably don't
have a very good foundation. Um. Then the pizza sauce. Um,
there's paste, and then there's fresh pack. Fresh packs about
twice as much money. But it's my opinion, four times
the flavor and then the cheese is important, but it's
(04:25):
more of a conductor of flavor. Um. You can put
cheddar or monster in your mazzarola and make the cheese flavor.
But cheese is really the conductor for the dough and
the sauce and the ingredients. And then you know, we
slice the green peppers and onions. We use really good,
high quality meats and um. You know when you start
(04:47):
of a good ingredients, that's the key, which you also
have to put it together correctly, and you can start it.
You can have good ingredients and we I can show
you Papa john pizza made with good ingredients not put
together right, and one that's good ingredients and put together right.
In it's night and day. So you really got to
do both. So what was different when you started your
(05:09):
business back in the day. Would you be able to
do the same thing in today's world. I think we'd
be successful. And we'll talk more about entrepreneurship and drive
and passion, sacrifice, commitment, persistence. Um. But I started Papa
John's in eighty four. That was Reaganomics, and um, Roald
Reagan was really pro small business and spirit, emotional leadership.
(05:33):
Direction starts at the top, and I was fortunate to
have a president who really wanted the economy to thrive
on a small business, of which I happened to be one.
So I think I was lucky found the company in
eighty four. Um, it's much more regulation today. UM, it's
less friendly into small business. UM. And that concerns me. UM.
(05:57):
I think small business owners still killed, still can be successful,
but I think it's gonna be a little harder and
take a little longer. Was there anyone you admired when
you got started in the fast food industry or someone
you admired today? Um? I worked in Wendy's, his friends
with R. David Thomas always admired R. David Colonel Sanders
(06:20):
started selling chicken five miles down the road where I'm
at today. Um. Jim Patterson, Uh, you know, he did
Cheat Cheese, he did Rally's Hamburgers, he did Long John Silver's. Um,
he was a big influence. And then I read a
book UM by John Love Behind the Arches, and John
Loved did an in depth overview of how Ray coroc
(06:44):
and his team uh pulled it off. And I'd say
the way we engineered franchising was probably McDonald's and Ray
croc um. The fresh pack sauce was Rocky Subhub and
Greeks and the concepts of the franchising. I was just
in our backyard with Jerry's Long John Silver Chee Cheeses, Wendy's, Donato's, KFC,
(07:07):
Texas Roadhouse, Whitecastle, all that's in this corridor between here
in Columbus, Ohio. So, UM, I was kind of at
the right place, at the right time, with the right idea.
Isn't that funny? I never realized that that there's so
much concentration of fast food restaurants in your region. Just
Wendy's in KFC is right there down the street. What
(07:28):
do you think it is? Do you think it's a
good proxy for America? I hear Columbus, Ohio is the
proxy for just general America. Do you think that also
is the case in in the part of Kentucky you're
in in Indiana as well? If you take that Columbus
Ohio UM les in Kentucky, Louisville down Evans. If you
take that corridor, UM, every concept that's been successful, you know,
(07:49):
in those three or four markets, those two or three demographics,
has been able to go national. So I don't know
what it is about the Columbus like in the Louisville corridor. UM,
but I mean we could go on again, Donado's, Bob Evans,
you know, White Castle, Texas Roadhouse, along John Silver's Chee Cheese, KFC, um, Wendy's.
(08:13):
I mean, it just goes on and on the amount
of success that franchise operators have had in this corridor
that have been able to take it, you know, worldwide,
in certainly country wide. Yeah, what do you think about
fast cash weal John, because that's something we've seen recently
in years. You know, Chipotle, it's that arrived. What's your
take on that? Well bothing? You certainly can't argue with
(08:36):
their success, their stock price, um, the like Blaze Pizza.
I think it's very good. I think it's a very
good product, but it doesn't travel well. So my only
drawback to Fast Casual would be, let's make sure it travels.
Let's make sure you can deliver it because right now
the game is being at home. Home is the game.
(08:57):
So let's just you know, let's just you know. I
was going through Wendy's last week. I went up to
the door to walk in. It's locked. They were lying
around the block through the draft through. So I never
thought Wendy's would spend you know, two million dollars on
bricks and sticks and dirt and then build and in
(09:18):
a dining room with a you know, soda fountain and
a bar and all that salad bar, you know, condiment bar,
and yet shut it down and just do the drive
through Starbucks. You know if you go in there, they're
kind of empty these days. But the drive throughs packs.
I think you the car and the home was where
you want to be. And if you have a fast
casual concept that can do that or can compete in
(09:41):
this kind of environment, I'm all board. Usually fast casual
foods a little better. Yeah, well, I guess Rallies and
Checkers was ahead of the game, right. They don't really
have a place to set just those patio tables outside. Yeah,
we'll talk about Rallies and Checkers. Um, that's a simple deal.
You've got twice as many drive throughs, so you're twice
as fast. That's your point of positioning. So if I
(10:01):
was to run that business you were talking about, our
point of differentiation is quality. Where more America's largest independent
pizzeria period in the conversation, better ingredients, better pizzas a
quality positioning. So everything we did we positioned, Uh, communicating
around that strategic position. Rallies, all you gonna do is
(10:22):
make a really good hamburger with good ingredients, good fries,
simple menu, and you're twice as fast because you've got
twice as many drafts. It's it's simply a fact. That's
their point of differentiations. So whether it's Nascar or drags
or anything Red Bull, anything that's fast is Rallies and Checkers.
Now they lost that with the big view for they
(10:42):
did all this other thing. The opposite skated off their positioning,
which was speed like Domino speed into other venues, and
he kind of solved that brand. I think at stores.
So tell me about you know, you were the face
of Papa John. So it's kind of like Colonel Sanders
(11:03):
right where he was like the face of a movement.
So that's pretty unusual in fast food. I think about
Steve Owls who started Chipotle. You know, he had a
lot of the same passion you did, you know, for
better ingredients and all that, but you were in the face.
Tell me what that was like. Do people recognize you
when you when you when you go out in public,
because that I saw a lot of commercials growing up.
I was the right demographic John. I'm thirty seven years old,
(11:24):
so in the early nineties I saw a lot of
Papa John's commercials. Yeah, Jack Try recommended we become the
face of the brand at the turn of the century.
So we tagged and with better ingredients, better pizza, actually
had a cold and tile because you know, we were
taking ourselves too seriously. Um, But Jordan's Zimmerman really is
the one that put um Papa's in the House in
(11:45):
two thousand and nine, two thousand and eight on the map,
and I remember him coming up with the concept of John,
you gotta get out of suit and tie. You gotta
you know, you need to wear jeans, untuck your shirt,
wear boots so people think you're a real person. Back then,
they thought I was an actor stand in. They didn't
really think I was Papa John. So that was all
Jordan's Emmerman and Papa's in the House. But I remember
(12:09):
the day he came to headquarters with that concept, those storyboards,
and I thought, Okay, hey, this is gonna sell a
lot of pizza and be it's gonna change my life,
you know, because you understand, Papa John's delivery person goes
into somebody's house. You know, you've got a mother with kids,
(12:30):
so you're entering their domain. So you have to have
a better product. You have to have better ingredients. You
have to you know, you have to make sure your
restaurants not only are better with ingredients, but better with
the staff, better with cleanliness, better with the image, better
with anything. So I immediately knew that I thought it
would work, but that, you know, you put yourself in
(12:51):
the crosshairs with regards to pr I have a question,
how are you skinning? You're really fit and you're a
fast food entrepreneur. How do you pull that off? We
we've been very religious about our workouts. UH. Store number
(13:15):
two was Clarksville. There was a gym behind the Clarksville store,
And even when we were broke at three o'clock, I said,
you know, I'm going to the gym for an hour
and a half. You guys can't hold this together for
an hour and a half. I'm not much of a leader,
but we are religious about workouts and we just don't miss. UH.
My high school baseball coach and I we lift weights
(13:36):
a couple of times a week. UM, we've been working
out for forty five years. We in forty years, haven't
missed ten workouts snow, gas, rain wrecks, So you know, Uh,
consistency is really the key to fitness. And if you know,
if you exercise, makes some attempt at the diet. Um,
(13:57):
I had a lot of pizza, always have, but I
don't eat four or five six slices. You know, you
eat one or two slices and you enjoy it, but
you know that you know every slices got three or
fifty calories. And if you need a whole pizza, you
know you're looking at you know, six slices and two
thousand cowries. You've pretty well done your whole meal for
the whole day. But I'd say fitness is a state
(14:18):
of mind. Um. You know, I'm big on making sure
you have the right water and vitamins. I think you
gotta go get a good night's sleep, and I think
you got to be consistent with your workouts. But I
love working out once. Once I get that workout and
I feel like I owned the day. So you're a
morning workout kind these days, I guess I like getting
it done in the morning. We usually ride mountain bikes
(14:39):
at you know, six thirty seven in the morning. Um,
and it's nice when you've when you've got that, you know,
our and a half to our ride in um By,
you know eight thirty and nine o'clock, you feel like
you own the day. Um. With that being said, this
morning in Louisville was in the twenties. So you don't
want to get on the mountain bike when it's twenty
nine degrees. That's why you gotta go to Florida. But
(15:02):
I like working out at lunch. I like um working,
I like riding the bike in the afternoon. Um. But
the main thing is just get it in, you know,
get it done and get it over with and you know,
go on about your day. So you see discipline in
your physical pursuits. Tell me about your entrepreneurial pursuits. Obviously,
Papa John's is your biggest you know, claim fame, but
(15:25):
what what's your lifestyle like? What is the lifestyle of
an entrepreneur like you? Like? Well, um, an entrepreneur you've
gotta be all in. And that's one of my issues
with the president administration and its policies. UM, nothing political,
but um, you will overregulate the small business and do
silly things like you cut off the keystone pipeline, which
(15:46):
is four percent of production. Um, you create an artificial
labor shortage because you pay people not to work. Um,
you make a very arduous, difficult task of running a
small business even harder. So I think the two things
I would would really suggest as you have to be
persistent and you know, make sacrifice, and you really got
(16:10):
to be passionate about it. If you love it and
you want it and you're good at it, you're you're
probably going to be successful sooner or later, whether you're
a dentist, an architect, pizza maker, you know, an engineer.
If you're really good at it and you really love it,
sooner or later you can break through because you just
simply outworked the other guy. You know, It's like, you know,
(16:33):
it's like a drippy false you just wear them out.
And we just outworked them, hustle them. We weren't that
much smarter than they were, and um, you know, finally
we we just we just finally won with a better pizza. Yeah,
which is very interesting because the time sure have changed,
you know, not only as politics differently, but norms are differently.
Would you still be at Papa John's today if you
(16:54):
hadn't had this big pr blow up that happened, I
hope not um again, and we had a succession plan
in place. We hit store five thousand, we took the
stock from six A shared eighty nine bucks. We had
a good run, and again, you know how much money
do you need? You know how much more do you
(17:14):
have to prove? So I was ready to step down
and kind of enjoyed, you know the fruits of our
labor um. Spend more time with the family, get some
more workouts in, and not be like I mean again,
when you're running five thousand stores and you have a
hundred thousand employees, you're full seven. Even if you're only
(17:37):
working sixt eighteen hours a day, you're still thinking about
it when you're sleeping, because you have to to be competitive.
So I was ready to step down. I told the
board just to listen, I'm gonna go on the beach
and take it easy. Um. You know, some guys are
ready to find somebody else to run it better than
I can. And I guess so, you know, I don't
(17:57):
want to dwell on this on the interview. What exactly
happen and that precipitated your exit? Well, the money does
strange things. To people. And the company was making two
hundred main a year and even off two million. And
your Papa John, You're getting all this attention, you're getting
all this notoriety, you have all this influence, you have
all this power, and I think that does strange things
(18:18):
to people. And we had a board of director Mark
Shapiro and CEO Steve Ritchie, and Shapiro gotten Richie's here
and said, hey, we can run this better than John.
Let's just kick him out. Well, they couldn't find any
way to kick me out, so they papricated, uh, this
race thing, and they basically paid an agency laundry service
(18:39):
who was supposed to be there to help enhance and
embellige and make the image better, actually went below the
surface and set me up and sabotaged it. Took a
false narrative to Forbes, well verse what I said. Forbes
didn't do their fact fact checking. They printed it, the
rest of media piled on and blew it up. So
(19:00):
it was just simple greed, arrogance, jealousy, um, you know, envy,
all the traits that are negative with us human beings,
and um, they used a false narrative to steal the
company because they wanted that to underminy year and they
wanted to be Papa John. So I guess after after
(19:20):
that whole scandal, you you gave money to a historically
black college, you came out and spoke on the record,
you released the recording I saw earlier this year. How
did you feel about because this is something fairly new
or I guess people would argue with me, this whole
idea of cancel culture. What's your very dangerous, very destructive. Um.
(19:41):
You can take a thirty four year career, which account
um Rocky subub was probably more like a forty three
year career, and one mishap, or in this case, one
falsehood can really do a lot of damage. Unfortunately, I
have the truth on my side, I have the facts,
and I have a tape that says they set me up.
(20:03):
I mean they're they're guilty as charged. So and also
have the resources financially just set the record straight. So, UM,
I think the records pretty well straight. People UM that
look at this kind of shake their head and dis
belief that a board of directors of a public company
and at CEO could do something this outrageous. UM. But
(20:24):
at the end of the day, UM, I tried to
save the employees they let they hurt my employees, um
and I tried to help the community. They left Louisville, Kentucky,
my hometown. I'm worried about the suppliers, but that's kind
of out of my hand. So the only last resort
I had was to make sure the franchise these are okay.
(20:45):
And whether it's COVID or luck whatever, everything that's happened
with trapping people at home and paying people not to work,
us being at home with money has helped us at
Papa John's, and the franchisees right now are doing well.
So let's just hope that that continues. Yeah, I saw
that the second they took over, they moved the headquarters
(21:05):
to Atlanta, Georgia. And you're a very local guy. You're
involved in many, you know, causes in your hometown. How
did you feel that? I was terrible. I mean, there's
four hundred families in Louisville. They lost their job, they
lost in the livelihood, they got left behind. I think
it's a terrible thing to do. And that's just how
ruthless this Border Directors is. They basically use race. They
(21:29):
used the black community, you know, Shaquille O'Neil is just
a pond in a tool for the Papa John's to
hide behind the race card by doing something was actually racist.
When you use a black man to cover up the
fact that you stole another man's company on a false narrative,
(21:51):
that's about as racist as you get. But um, like
you said, the stadiums arenas Zoos Kids Center, scholarships for universities.
We were heavily involved in this community. And to watch
my company that I founded just pick up and leave Louisville, Kentucky,
you know, um, you know, cold handed broke my heart,
(22:15):
but there was nothing I could do about it. But
that just gives you an idea how ruthless this board
of directors are. That you know, people, um are objects
of self gained. You know, human beings are not important.
And that is foreign to me because again, we weren't
in the pizza biness. We were in the people business,
(22:36):
and I felt as long as we took care of
our people, we sell all the pizza in the world.
This company now today is a whole different outlet that
they're just employees, they're dispensable, uh, dispensable, and they're just
objects of self gain. That scares me. I'm I'm a
share older Papa Joze. I bought shares in the last
hundred days and it's done quite well for me over
(22:58):
the years. But the first two or three things that
they did when I left was they threw our culture way,
which our culture was based on fundamental principles of collaborative
alliance and integrity and mutual respect and kindness. And when wins,
they do that. That's the first thing they did is
take the principles that would we found in the company,
built the company out the door. Second thing they did
(23:21):
they took out the measuring system, the matrix for quality
um and if you don't measure it, they're not gonna
do it. And thus today our consistency is probably as
bad as it's been in you know, twenty years. And
the third thing is they didn't really want to take
care of the people the way I did. We had
some five or thirty man a year in bonuses to
(23:43):
the employees. That was the first thing they got rid
of was bonuses to the employees because I wanted the
employees to feel like owners. So you got a company
now without a runner, it's really lost its way with
its quality because it's inconsistent. Um, they don't value people
the way we did no days and you know it's
it's not principle based. And if you don't have principles,
(24:06):
you don't have anything. So how long can you do this?
Behave like this? I think for financial institutions and private equity,
I don't think they care. I think they get in,
they prop it up with short term gimmicks or earnings,
and then you know, when it crashes, they leave other
people holding the bag. So we shall see. But the
(24:27):
main thing is the franchise. These right now are healthy,
they're doing well, and despite all the things that corpus doing,
I hope that continues to be the way things are.
But this is happening all over the economy, right We
see that this the small business is kind of going
the way of the Jodo bird. And the idea that
bigger is better is everywhere. Food service, pharmacies, airlines, you
(24:47):
name it. It It seems to be going everywhere. And it
seems like a lot of companies like Papa John's that
you're suggesting, that had a culture, that had a founder,
that had an ethos, that had you know, brand guidelines,
are all being sacri fight at the altar of short
term profit and profitability. Quite right, Well, what that does
That leaves the door opened for my next venture or
(25:08):
for the next John shot, and it comes along that
really wants to take care of people and wants to
make a good product. Because to your point, the product
uh in service in the image aspect is really deteriorated
because that's not the focus. The focus is on short
term profits. Um. But the penglamin sweed swung that far,
(25:30):
pendulum will swing back this far, and when that comes,
that's when you have to be ready emotionally, physically, intellectually.
You have to have plenty of dry powder and you've
got to be ready to pounce. Check the l a
right now? Is that check the lands in the best
possible position of all of them. It's private. Um, they're
very spiritual, they love their employees. Their managers get half
(25:52):
the bonus. I mean our managers get They got fifty um, Dan,
Cathy and Bobba and that team down and they got
it together. Yeah. What is it about Chick fil A?
When you go to Chick fil a, right, you feel
like the services quick And it's not the quickest place,
by the way, it's it's actually slower than McDonald's and whatnot.
But for some reason, you get a feeling that you
(26:14):
feel kind of good. People are smiling, people are friendly,
the food is fairly good. Like I guess what I'm
trying to suggest, John, is that culture matters in the
I think it does, especially in the service industry, like um,
you know the restaurants. I mean, I think they got
it together with the product and service. I mean, granted
they're lying all the way around the building, but they
(26:35):
get you too quick. Um that's all for a couple
of problems. Everything is always fresh and hot because they're
moving so quick. I think Dan Cathy and um you
Kathy family operated at extremely high level when it comes
to personal integrity. I think that's a huge asset. I mean,
they they just have nothing but goodwill and good heart
(26:55):
towards their fellow man. They really love humanity and they
love their faith, and they walk to talk, and then
they're very spiritual people. They functioned at a very high
level on an emotional spiritual level. We're talking out here
about stock options and they're talking up here about the
higher power and doing the right thing. And I think
(27:17):
that's going to give them a tremendous advantage moving forward.
I think they're gonna be I mean, what's the average
KFC do a million too and chickla does five millions.
I mean they're both selling chicken, they both have the
same real estate. What's the difference. I think it's a
little bit of difference on the quality in the service. Um.
I think there's a lot of difference on the image.
(27:37):
I think there's a tremendous amount of difference on these
quality of employees. And then I think they operate from
universal principles of fairness, trustworthiness, mutual respect, kindness, and luck.
I think that's a huge advantage. So one of the
(28:01):
things that's been interesting about the fastest growing UH fast
food chains are that they're not really franchise able. I mean,
Chick fil A has sort of a franchise model, but
Chipotle doesn't, Starbucks doesn't. And what I see is a
lot fewer options for franchisees than there used to be,
especially in fast growing areas. I had the founder of
Dunkin Donuts on here on my podcast when I first
(28:24):
started almost a year ago, and he was saying, it
has a lot to do with those companies want to
keep it internally because it's so profitable per store. What
do you see the landscape like? Is there two franchise
still get a fair shake at joining a network or
a brand that is quickly Absolutely. I think to answer
your question, because you answered your own question, is that,
(28:45):
UM the reason Starbunction, Chick fil A, and Chavolta don't
franchises because they're making so much money. But if you
have UM something you're passionate enough long John Silver's Fish,
Chick fil A, Chicken, Papa John's piz or whatever, and
you're a leader in your category. Now you may be
a leader like Domino's Speed, Little Caesar's Price, Pizza's Farriday,
(29:06):
Papa John's quality. But as long as your leader and
you have a unit economic model that works, you've got
those three circles. UM good to great, UM the Tom
Collins Um, you've got something that's franchise able. I don't
think Chick fil A and Starbucks are Chapulte have a
problem selling franchises. I think they don't sell them because
(29:27):
they don't need to. UM. The reason we franchise Papa John's.
We had the capital, we had the expertise, we had
the institutional knowledge, We just didn't have the manpower the
management ability to run five thousand stores. We could run
six hundred, but you know, our limiting limited and limiting
aspect of growth was you know, management. So if you
(29:51):
could go, if you right now, we're forty years younger,
what would you do? What would be the venture you start?
I would do a whole lot of different what I did,
because us really, you would do it all over again.
I mean the hand I get to play today, I
mean and to have, you know, they have to do
it over again. I mean the sacrifice and the persistence
(30:14):
and the ups and downs. They were great and I
loved him and I even loved you know. We made
a lot of mistakes, probably did a lot of things
we wish we hadn't have done. But that's what you
have to do to learn. So, you know, I turned
sixty next month. Hopefully, you know, when I'm sixty five,
I'll be a better man than I am today. And
hopefully today I'm a better man than I was twenty
(30:37):
years ago. But the thought of doing this all over again,
I mean, we were so blessed and so lucky um
to be at the right place at the right time,
to be able to pull this off to get through
that window of opportunity, whether it's Reaganomics, whether it's the
fact that Dominoes and pizza that Little Caesars didn't they
didn't even take notice of me. He's just a guy
(30:58):
for Lottalk Ducky leaves us a small town will never
make it, and they let me get through that limit
of opportunity to store two thousand. So I got scaled once,
we got scaled in the game. When the game was over,
we were gonna get the three, four or five thousand stores.
But I don't have any regrets as I sit here today. Um,
you know I could have done some things different or better. Yeah,
(31:19):
but I could have done a lot of things a
lot worse and not as good. So I'll take I'll take.
You know, some people Bill Gates, you know, he's got
four aces, war Buffett, he's got a royal flush. You know,
some people get three twos. You know, I don't know
if I got four jacks or three queens in a
full house, I don't know. But I've got a good
(31:39):
hand of cards. And we played her for all they
were worth. We ran a good race. We run our race,
and now in the world's kind of my oyster, like
a Papa John's. I don't want to be employee. I
don't want to be a Rob Lynch or Shaquille O'Neal.
Let's let them wake up and film for three days.
Let Rob Lynch wake up and deal with h this way,
(32:00):
a shortage in this UM supply chain issue and all
this political you know, partisan and the vision of the country.
I don't want to be a board of directors because
it's the liability, I mean just it's just not worth
you know, a couple hundred thousand a year to have
that kind of exposure. And last but not least, you
(32:21):
can be a shareholder. Well, I like being a shareholder.
Let somebody else come up and do wake up every
day and work their tail off and do what I
did for thirty or four years and make me richer,
you know. I like that. So UM shareholder, UM board
of director employee. Right now, I just want to be
a shareholder. And then again, if something comes along, um,
(32:44):
you know, then then maybe take a look at it.
But it's got to match the four things in my soul,
which is it's got to be in my soul, it's
gotta be in my being it's gotta feel heart. Who
is it's got a better humanity? You know, I don't
want to. I started in the bar business. Um, pizza,
I love pizza, but it is it's a lot of calaries. Um.
I want to do something that actually makes people happier
(33:07):
and healthier. And yeah, I'm more spiritual. Three, it has
to be scalable. I like big stuff. I'm looking at
something and go where we're you know, not what it is,
what it could be. And fourth is it has to
be sustainable. I don't want to be feeding something every month.
You know, I'm a kiddie. I want something that's self supporting.
So when something comes along to meet those five bore criteria,
(33:29):
and I'll take a hard look at it, and I'll
jump back in the game. Uh, in the interim with
these ridiculous peas and a shortage of really good companies,
you're better off just you know, get on a horse
that's successful, that's established, it's a good business, and maybe
pay some dividends and just ride that and let somebody
else do all the heavy lifting. Yeah. I want to
(33:51):
take a moment to talk about that, because I know
we don't want to talk about politics, but politics and
economics are kind of you know, tethered together. And really
where politics meets economics, we know, sadly politics wins. So
what do you think about the current world we live
in today? You know, higher than normal inflation, labor shortages,
high regulation, big business squashing small business. You know, we
(34:12):
can go on and on about all the troubles that
we have in this country today economically. No matter what
you're partisan affiliation. Well, I'm an optimist. You know, I
love people, I love humanity. Um. I get pretty upset
when I see some of the things going on the
division of the country. You know, as Lincoln said, you know,
(34:33):
house divided cannot staying. I think we need to come together. Um. Again,
maybe I'm over optimistic, but I think there's a ground
swelling for people to say, Okay, enough enough, let's get
off the hamster wheel. Let's start stop stepping on each other.
Let's pull together as humanity, um, and see if we
(34:59):
can't make every about these lives better together. And I
think it starts with you know, your health, your fitness,
your friends, your family, your interpersonal relationships. I think you know,
I think business is fantastic for making people's lives better
and making you know, people's standard living go up. But
I think clean business is good business. I think it's
(35:20):
got to be done with um, with integrity and mutual
respect and regard for what's in everybody's best interests. So
I'm I'm positive on human race. I don't like a
lot of things I see UM, and I really don't
like the hypocrisy of main street media. UM. You know,
(35:40):
the Democratic Republican at electorate level, they're they're all good people.
They just want to get up, make a living, make
their lives better, make their family lives better. And they're
just trying to do what's right. And you know, for them,
they're not trying to hurt anybody. It's not like that. Now.
The problem you got is the progressive left elite. They
(36:04):
will scortch the earth for prior and control. And you
saw what happened last night in the election, um, the
Pendulman swinging. And I think that the elite, progressive left
the people that are really kind of pulling the strings
because Biden is really not running the show. You know,
there's there's other folks. So whereas in Gates UM that
(36:25):
are really doing things behind the scenes, He's just the
puppet and he's kind of a hard puppet demands because
he's pretty clumsy. Um Uh, the things they'll do with
total discordard for humanity, now that concerns me. And so
that begs the question is why are they doing it?
You know, all you have to do is logal, just
pick on we go Venezuela. Look what that economy did.
(36:47):
Look at Cuba, but you could go to Chili and
forties crashed with socialism, then free markets came in. They
went up, then they crashed it again, then it went up.
Now they're trying to crap. I mean, so when you,
regardless of your politics, if you had that policy, if
Reagan was doing some of the policies today back in
eighty four, I printing money, spending tray ins like money
(37:11):
grows on tree, um, no borders, leaving eighty five billion
dollars or the assets to the Afghanistan. If he was
doing all and making a labor shortage, artificial labor shortage
because they paid people stay at home. If Reagan went
that was his policies, regardless of his party, I still
would have been against that. So, um, these policies happen,
(37:33):
you know, they quickly. It's been ten months, and you
look at where we're at. You look at the evaluation
of the dollar and what these deficits have done to
the purchasing power of the average family. It's it's scary
and and and the two things I try to leave
um the viewers with when I do interviews. This one
(37:53):
is if they spend trains, if they print money like
it's you know, going out of style. It's a hidden
tax on you, the middle class, for the rest of
your life. It devalues the dollar. The second thing we're
getting to watch in real time is you play with
free market dynamics. Free markets work, and in this case
(38:15):
we artificially um uh intruded on free market labor. We
pay people to stay at home and not work. Look
at the consequences. Shelves are empty. You got a hundred
of ships that can't get unloaded. The quality of goods
and services you go. I want to Starbucks last week,
um it was thirties five minutes to get a couple
(38:37):
of coffee. Thirty five minutes. So when socialism and fascism
give you empty shells and give you a deterioration in
the product and service, and that's what we're experiencing the answer,
Get rid of all these regulations, get arms around our
national budget, and let free markets and entrepreneurs do what
(38:59):
they do, which there's not a large company that didn't
start out as a small company, usually one or two
people's idea. Let the innovation, the new ideas, the tinkering,
the trial there. Let the entrepreneur do what they do.
They'll figure out a better way. They'll figure out about
the mouse trap. They'll make things more productive, more efficient,
(39:20):
they'll enhance technology, they'll enhance experience, and they'll make the
whole society better. That's what free markets do. That sounds
very convincing, but doesn't seem to be a popular opinion
these days. People like control, politicians like control. We you know,
we have a divided country where no one really speaks
up for free market economics, not even on the right.
You know, we have a situation where, you know, we
(39:42):
don't have a lot of confidence in free markets, even
though they have created modern America in our way of life.
It seems like there's a disconnect there and understanding between
the public and these ideas, which they're not really ideas.
Job there every day, I mean, you're speaking my language.
I think it's it's really interesting. Regardless of your politics,
it's really important to remember that the entrepreneur, the inventor
(40:05):
and all of that have the solution, is not the God.
I don't know. I think if you look at last night,
I think you just saw a giant swing of the
pendulum coming back to less government, less regulation. Um, not
all this oversea where you got the r S stoopid down.
You know you're checking out for five in our bucks. Um,
you got you know, big brother watching over your shoulder.
(40:26):
I think that the social I don't want to throw
the Democratic Party in here because I don't want to political,
but the far left gotta got a taste that you're
trying to take this country too far over here where
money does grow on trees and arithmetics and opinion, and
you don't have to work because you're you're entitled because
somebody else has it. So you said at home or
(40:47):
work while other people work? While you said at home,
I mean it's a losing proposition. But they arithmetic is
that's my favorite quote of the whole of the whole interview.
But well, John, where do we where do we follow you?
I know you're on TikTok. I've seen that you have
made an effort to you know, uh, weigh in on
(41:09):
the social media that works. Were sullenly on Instagram and
TikTok the Papa John Snyder. Um, we have a lot
of fun with it if we keep it light. Um,
I think right now our society needs. I think we
just need a lot of positive, you know, collaborative kind
thoughts towards each other. So we we try to keep it, uh,
(41:30):
you know, very low key and very light. But we
have fun with it. And I poked fun of myself
and the kids seem to like it. Um, when you
were saying you were born in eighty four, I just said, wow,
you just made me feel real old. But um, social
media something I didn't grow up with. We didn't have computers. Remember,
we were still in a cigar box with um, you know, tickets,
(41:53):
belly tickets. So, um, the computer thing is something we
didn't understand. I didn't understand, and we really had to
adapt because you know, it's kind of where it's headed
with this. So we a lot of fun on social media.
I think there's between Instagram and tick off, there's a
little over eight hundred thousand viewers. So um, not a
(42:14):
lot of years, but enough that I can have a
lot of fun to get a lot of feedback. I'll
be happy to follow you. Thank you so much for
taking the time to talk to me today, and all
the best to you and your family. God blessed, Happy holidays, David,
thanks for having me. Well, that was a fun interview.
You know, someone like Papa John is someone who you know,
(42:36):
really creates the trends and has so much important insight
into how to build a business, how to be successful,
and ultimately how to be a disciplined person. So I
want to thank him for his time. You know. Follow
the Profit has been a really fun project of mine
and I've really enjoyed talking to everyone, especially food service people.
The funny thing is that I don't consider myself a foodie,
but throughout this podcast in the past year, I've learned
(42:57):
a lot about the food service business. We've had the
founder of Condonuts, We've had the head chef of Blaze Pizza,
We've and now Papa John. So if you want to
take a listen, go back to our library of fascinating
interviews from these trend setting entrepreneurs. I want to thank
my team Scott, Rob Cheyenne and everyone else at bowld
TV who made this a reality. Of course, i'd like
(43:19):
to thank our executive producers, Debbie Myers and New Gingrich
and UH. If you're liking this podcast, please leave us
a review, give us five stars, or leave us a
bad review. We always want to know what you're thinking
about the podcast. I'm your host, David Grassa if you
haven't noticed by now, and of course, as always followed.
The profit is a production of ging Which three six
(43:39):
and I Heart Radio. For more podcasts like this one,
visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever
you get your podcast. Part of the Gang which
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