July 26, 2019 • 25 mins
Breakfast — that beloved meal in which we “break” our after-dinner “fasts” — has a long and surprisingly rich history. Like, did you know eating it used to be considered sinful? In this episode, Marc chats with food historian Heather Arndt Anderson about the origins of the first meal of the day and how brunch became such a cultural event. Plus, he’s joined by Teddy Karounos, a longtime friend and owner of New York City’s Square Diner, for a conversation on breakfast as big business and the art of cooking the perfect egg.
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Food three sixty with Mark Murphy is a production of
I Heart Radio. When women started entering the workforce, convenience
foods really blew up, and especially breakfast foods because it
was a meal that children could prepare for themselves. And
that was when breakfast cereal as we know it today
really hit the mainstream. That's the beauty of the diner business.
I think being a member of the community, being a
(00:23):
member of the neighborhood. My favorite part is watching the
little ones grow up. In seventeen years, I've watched kids
go from diapers to almost college, so it's been pretty amazing.
You know. Welcome to Food three sixty, the podcast that
serves up some serious of food for thought. I'm your host,
Mark Murphy. Some of you may know me as a
chef and a New York restaurateur. In today's episode, we're
(00:44):
gonna be talking about breakfast. Now. I've cooked up plenty
of breakfast in my life, and I think I know
a thing or two about the subject, but I want
to hear from people whose careers literally revolve around it.
At the top of the show, you heard from my
guest today, Heather Art Anderson and Teddy A. Ruinos. I
spoke to Heather first. She's an author and food writer
from Portland, Oregon. Her first book, Breakfast to History, explores
(01:07):
the origins of the first meal of the day and
I would eventually evolved into a gastronomic spectacle. Heather, thanks
so much for joining me today. Him Mark, thanks for
having me. So I've read in the Middle Ages breakfast
used to be considered a sin. Do you know much
about that. Yeah, in the Middle Ages that they considered
eating breakfast to be too close to the previous meal
(01:28):
because people were still eating dinner in around ten pm
back in those days, and it got attached to gluttony, which,
as we know, is one of the seven deadly sins.
No minor infraction. But you know, people would also go
to bed and then wake up in the middle of
the night, get up and do stuff, have a little snack,
and then go back to bed. And so the way
we structure our days now is very different than how
(01:49):
it was a few hundred years ago. So today the
way breakfast is so people get up there breakfast, they
do launch, they do dinner. When did that sort of
transition into being that was the norm. Well, people started
eating breakfast again and more regularly after the Reformation of
the Church. But also that coincides with the introduction of
caffeinated beverages to Europe. When coffee and tea and chocolate
(02:09):
arrived on the scene. They started changing rules really fast
to make allowances for these things. And then we have
this other great meal that's brunch. When did that come about?
Because I heard somebody came up with that because they
were hungover or something like that. Yeah, our friend Guy
baron Erge Barrener, he wrote a manifesto about it, basically
a plea for brunch, and it basically came down to
(02:33):
a complaint that breakfast was too early, which agree, you know,
too early. Having brunch gives the opportunity to take the
edge off of your hangover with a little hair of
the dog. And so it's the morning meal in which
a little bit of alcohol, you know, nothing too heavy,
but certainly a cocktail is allowed, and it's at a
(02:55):
merciful time of day. It's a little later in the morning. Also,
at this time in history, people were not going to
church as often. It's the late nineteenth century, and going
to church every Sunday, bright and early was less consistently
practiced by the masses, and so it was a little
bit more socially acceptable to sleep in on a Sunday,
And this was just, you know, a chance for people
(03:16):
to get together and while away a Sunday morning, maybe
talk about the kind of trouble they got into the
night before, and just have a nice, relaxed meal. That
kind of progresses from little nibbli pastries up to the
heavier fair But people didn't really want to eat a
bunch of meat and eggs first thing in the morning,
especially on a squirrely stomach after you've been out drinking.
(03:38):
So I think that Mr Berenger's plea was a good one.
And it's interesting is I have restaurants, and you know,
we serve brunch on Saturdays on Sundays. Obviously, economically, we
sort of have stretched it out because it's a good
profit margin for us. Eggs are pretty inexpensive. You can
make some good money on brunch, so we do it
on Saturdays as well as Sundays. But it does still
feel like Sunday is the brunch day. And there's certain
(04:00):
towns I feel like they're like, oh, that's a big
brunch town. Yeah. Portland, Oregon is a big brunch town. Actually,
we've been mocked for it on Portlandia and rightly so.
I mean, we have a lot of brunch places and
most even nice restaurants will do brunch on the weekends
because as you mentioned, it's good for your margins, it's
a low cost, the meal goes quickly and people even
(04:22):
McDonald's makes a lot of money off their breakfast. But
in Portland's people will stand for hours waiting to get
in to a place to get chicken and waffles or
biscuits and gravy. And the episode on Portlandia there was
a breakfast restaurant literally across the street. I think that
was at Bigley Jr. Was was the brunch cook and
he was like, hey, you know, there's got lots of
(04:43):
seats over here, but people would just rather stand in line.
It's like part of their brunch experience. And this is
something where I you know, as a Portland native. Yeah,
it's pretty funny. So obviously one of the things, well
a couple of things that go with brunch is the
Bloody Mary and the Mimosa. So I hear that it's
the eighty five birthday of the Bloody Mary. When did
this come about well, so two different guys claimed the
(05:04):
invention of this cocktail. But juice started becoming a really
common part of breakfast around the twenties, and so I
think that when people were looking at ways to enjoy
alcohol in the morning, adding juice seemed like an acceptable
way to kind of get alcohol's foot in the door
at the breakfast table. But I don't think that the
bloody Mary was initially invented as a brunch beverage. I
(05:26):
think it was just sort of nourishing, invigorating cocktail. And
yet tomato juice was kind of on trend back then.
All of the other ingredients that were added by us
a later dude, the first guy who claimed to have
invented it was just vodka tomato juice. But then Pete Pettio,
I think, is the one who added all of the
horse radish and cell resalt and worcestershire. And I'm not
(05:50):
sure exactly when this garnishing extravaganza began, but I've seen
some pretty crazy stuff put on bloody Mary hamburgers, pieces
of pa It's gone a little far. Actually judged a
bloody Merry competition once for a food festival, and when
they were calling them meat sticks were sticking out of it.
I was like, Okay, we've definitely gone too far here. Yeah,
(06:14):
and then we've also, you know, I travel a lot.
I love going out and seeing the world, and to me,
first of all, different countries obviously have different traditions for breakfast,
and then there's also the different traditions for the breakfast
hangover meal. Like I was in Turkey and everybody's like, oh,
you gotta go have this thing. It's made out of
lamb intestines and when you come out of a club late,
it's street food and they cut it up and they
(06:34):
put it on this big roll of bread and it's
great for a hangover. But there's also the tradition of
breakfast in all these different countries, which I'm fascinated over.
I kind of eat breakfast like a Southeast Asian. I
tend to eat noodles and soup and stewie things for breakfast.
I also have a confession that I don't eat breakfast
first thing in the morning. I actually like just have coffee,
(06:55):
I go work out for an hour, and then I
come home and eat it like ten thirty, and I
usually just myself a bowl of like kim chee stew
or a bowl of some spicy noodles. But that's pretty
consistent with some of the hangover foods you see in
other parts of the world. There's a lot of times
spicy foods, something kind of stewy, you know, you want
something wet in your stomach or your stomach is not
working too hard. But I feel like a lot of
(07:17):
the hangover cure as I see. You know, minuto is
a good hangover cure. That's another spicy o fal dish,
you know, pretty similar to what you said that you
had in Turkey. And also a lot of national dishes
in the world are breakfast dishes. And so I think
that breakfast has really cemented itself as part of the
national culinary identity or the culinary vernacular of different countries.
(07:40):
And that was something that I found pretty interesting. Yeah,
when I was in I think I was in Lima,
somebody told me that the breakfast there that people eat
is like a chicken stock of some sort with big
pieces of chicken and all these things in it. And
they said that's what people usually for breakfast, but it's
also hangover remedy. I have to admit, my favorite hangover
remedy is the kanji. Yeah. I was in China and
I was with these people and like, oh, let me
(08:00):
show you this great breakfast food. It's called kanji. Have
you ever seen this? I'm like, oh my gosh, I
eat that in Chinatown in New York City all the time.
I love it. Yeah, I love joke and kanji. And
that's another thing. You know, a lot of these stewy
things that are great for hangover cures or for brunch,
you can kind of just leave them cooking overnight over
a low fire, and so that adds another layer of
convenience to it. You don't have to do anything. It's
(08:21):
just sitting there in your kitchen already. You mentioned serially
in your book and how it's We're pretty unique here
in America, and I think basically invented it. But I
think the story of how it was invented, if you
could go into it a little bit, I think it's
super interesting and it makes me want to run home
and try and see if this works, because it's very cool. Yeah,
you know, it's one of those happy accidents that so
(08:41):
many good things come from. Will Keith and John Harvey Kellogg,
who were running a Sanitarium in Battle Creek, Michigan. This
is like a day spar You could stay there longer
to get healthy and clean. It was mostly upper class people.
They would stay and have the spa breakfast. And so
the Kellogg boys were experiments thing with some wheat porridge
(09:02):
and it got a little too dried out on the
stove because they had to step away from the kitchen.
So they thought they could try rolling it out into
sheets and see if they could use it that way.
But it just kind of crumbled apart into these little flakes.
And so you know, they were smart and resourceful dudes,
and they decided to give it a shot anyways and
served it to their clientele and the folks at the
sand loved it, and so they started producing it on purpose.
(09:26):
So things get a little tricky then though, because they
started adding corn and other grains that go Ran said quickly,
they have a shorter shelf life. And Will Keith Kellogg
he was an industrialist and a businessman, whereas John Harvey
Kellogg was a doctor. They're both Seventh Day Adventists, so
they're they're vegetarians. They're really kind of keen on clean
(09:47):
living and health. What we think of as hashtag clean
eating today. Will Keith Kellogg had his eye on the
bottom line, which was moving product, and so he wanted
to add preservative sugar and salt to extend the shelf
life of this cereal product. And John Harvey Kellogg was
absolutely adamant that that not happened. He really wanted it
(10:10):
to be a healthful and nutritious product that didn't have
any added preservatives. And the disagreement was this permanent fraternal
rift that I think they died estrange from each other.
Will Keith Kellogg of course founded the Kellogg's Company, which
is still pretty well known today, whereas John Harvey Kellogg
just maintained his sanitarium and was rating health magazines and
(10:31):
it really blew up from there. In fact, corn flakes
now have so much sugar in them that you can't
get them on Wick, on the Women's infintin children's government subsidies.
It's too high and sugar to qualify as a breakfast food.
That's amazing. I mean, I didn't know that there was
such a tear jerking story behind the invention of cereal,
of just upset with each other over a corn flakes.
You know, a lot of interesting breakfast breakthroughs happened around
(10:54):
World War two, well between World War One and World
War Two, when women started entering the workforce, convenience food
really blew up, and especially breakfast foods because it was
a meal that children could prepare for themselves. And that
was when breakfast cereal as we know it today really
hit the mainstream. And actually, you know, breakfast cereals were
the first products that were directly advertised to children. Marketing
(11:15):
changed because of that, and it was just because of
the shift up in demographics of the American workplace. And
wasn't there also a response in World War two for
bacon and it was sort of like a byproduct at
one point. Well, actually it comes a little earlier than that,
was the twenties. And if you want to start talking
about Edward Burnet's, the guy behind the bacon and eggs marketing,
we can certainly get into that. I would love to
(11:37):
hear about it. Edward Burne's is a really cookie guy.
So he's the nephew of Sigmund Freud. He's considered the
father of pr in America, and he had been hired
by various companies. We can thank him for getting women
to smoke lucky strikes. He was the one who came
up with the nickname freedom torches. But the Beachnut Corporation,
(11:57):
they were making ham and bacon, then cured meat products.
And this is around the time when the Kellogg's are
still pretty big. That kind of adventist, clean living food,
a lot of whole grains, juice toast, that kind of
stuff is what people are normally having for breakfast. And
so Beach and Not wants to try to get meat
back on the breakfast table, and they hire Burnet's who
(12:19):
comes up with this idea of pulling doctors, and so
he pulls five thousand doctors. He asks, would you agree
that hearty breakfast is more healthful than a light breakfast?
And doctors, you know, largely agreed, yes, having a party
breakfast is better for you than having a light meal.
And then he says, well, would you consider bacon and
(12:42):
eggs to be a hardy American breakfast? And they're like, well, yes,
And so then he extrapolated and says, you know, five
thousand doctors agree that bacon and eggs is a hearty,
healthy breakfast. And so he was one of the first
people to use expert testimony, And you know, it's funny.
For all the products he was hired remote, he lived
a hundred and three. I mean, that's a long age
(13:03):
for a dude who's basically getting rich promoting cigarettes and bacon.
But I did think it was pretty funny. After his
campaign went viral or whatever the version of virality is,
the American Heart Association was formed within a couple of years.
It's pretty funny how that panned out. Two quick questions
for yourself links or patties when it comes to sausage.
(13:24):
Oh man, um, I really do like a patty. And
how do you do your eggs sunny side up over easy?
Because there's a million ways to do it? Yeah, I
so I raise hands. I have chickens in my backyard.
That's another Portland's cliche, but I have backyard chickens, and
I like a sunny side up over medium. I like
the yoke to be creamy, but I want the whites
set right. That's exactly the way I like it. And
(13:44):
what are the names of your chickens? Because I heard
that's something in Portland, right God? Yeah, so I've got Zelda, Jorda, Sansa,
Aria and Peach. Oh my God, that show is right.
That show is right. You guys name your chickens. I
love it. I love it. Thank you so much for
being here today. Mark more on Food three sixty right
(14:05):
after this quick break, welcome back to Food three sixty.
Sixteen years ago, I built my first restaurant in New
York City. It was called Landmark. And when you're building
a restaurant, you obviously need to eat. And the restaurant
has no food any yet. So lucky for me, there
was a Square Diner right across the street, and that's
where I met Teddy. Teddy Cabrunos. He's the owner of
(14:25):
the Square Diner in New York City's Trebeca neighborhood. He
took over the restaurant from his father in law after
he ran it for thirty years. If anyone knows diner food,
it's Teddy. So Teddy, thanks for being here today. I
was just wondering, do you remember my first order of
the day when I used to go to work. First
of all, thanks for having me on. And of course
I remember what the sandwich was. It was a ham
and egg on it roll. And that hamm and egg
(14:47):
on a roll, I remember sometimes I would sit at
the counter and eat it. But most of the time
I would get it wrapped up, because it goes first
in a piece of parchment paper and then in tinfoil,
and then I used to stick it in my pocket
and walk across the streets, and I always found that
it was better when it sort of steamed for about
five or six minutes, maybe in my pocket, in the
parchment and everything. I feel like when you eat it
(15:08):
the counter, all those flavors didn't meld together. And that's
the way I really really liked it. Do you ever
hear that story from anybody that they like their breakfast
sandwich steamed in their pocket. Well, that's why they wrap
it in the parchment paper rights to get the heat
onto the bread instead of just going straight to the
aluminum foil. So it's kind of like an extra layer
of insulation. Breakfast and diners, I feel like they're synonymous.
Do most people think diners are just for breakfast? I
(15:31):
believe that they do, especially with our place, which is
a very small place and we don't offer that extensive
diner menu with you know, pasta saute stuff like that.
So most of my customers, a lot of my regulars,
the children especially, they don't think of me as a
place where they would eat dinner. They think of me, oh,
this is our breakfast place. And they've said that to
me before. It bothers me a little bit, because you know,
(15:52):
we are a full scale restaurant. But of course breakfast
is one of our specialties, of not our main specialty.
And you even have liqualize. It's you have bottles up there.
Of course, course you gotta serve those bloody Marys at
brunch if you want to do any real profit in
New York anymore. A very important part of brunch is
definitely the bloody mary. Now your place, the Square Diner.
That place is just a classic New York diner. How
would you describe it? It was built by Command Dining
(16:13):
Car Company in the four Days and the fifties. It's
an original train car style diner. Now, it's not a
real train car obviously, and if you came in and
entered the restaurant, you'd see that it's very very tiny.
It's actually probably smaller than a train car. So it's
an original and we've kept it that way. Sometimes I
want to tear the place apart and you know, remodeled,
but it can be difficult to run a restaurant that
has seventy year old fixtures in it. It's a classic
(16:35):
old school place and the character and the architecture is
part of the experience, and which is why we've left
it talking about the character and the architecture of the experience. Now,
if you remodeled, you would lose a huge part of
your business. And from what I know, because whatever, once
in a while you pull up to the diner and
you can't go in because Law and Order is shooting there.
How many times has Law and Order shot in your diner?
(16:56):
Well last year alone it was three times. So we've
been very, very fortun in it. With the filmings. As
a matter of fact, last year we did over ten
different filmings. We had Ray Donovan in there three times
from Showtime, we had Quantico from ABC, we had Bull
from CBS. If you want old school New York, the
Square Diners kind of got the market on that. I mean,
everything nowadays is a glass box with twelve foot ceilings,
(17:18):
so the Square Diners very unique in that sense. Yeah,
you're gonna be able to close down. It's just gonna
be a movie set right now. You won't even have
to serve diner food anymore. That would be a lot easier.
I wish there were that many filmings, but unfortunately now
so you guys serve breakfast all day, and I mean
I can come in there at night and get an
omelet or my beautiful ham and egg sandwich on a roll.
But I think that the fast food chains are catching
(17:38):
onto your trick because I read about fast food places
and they're serving breakfast, but they're also serving breakfast all day.
You think they're coming after your business, Oh for sure.
I think that, Especially if I wanted to call out
one particular fast food place, I'd say McDonald's has been
dinering itself up for the last ten years. The introduction
of grilled chicken, the introduction of salads, breakfast all day
a couple of years ago, and their sales keep going
(17:59):
up because I think that diner model works very very well,
and people love their eggs. You know, I don't think
eggs is limited to just breakfast anymore. Well, as far
as I'm concerned, you already know how to do breakfast
really well. You should just open up a dinner fast
food place and then you'll take care of everything well.
I you know, it's funny. I love the fact that
they're doing it because they're not going to do it
(18:19):
the way that we do it. I don't think you're
ever gonna walk into a fast food place and have
fifteen or twenty different options for your omelet and being
able to order it any way that you like. The
flexibility that we exhibit is very difficult to replicate, especially
in a fast food type of business model. Well, I
have to say that for a restaurateur such as myself,
I obviously have a restaurant here in Manhattan, you seem
to have made it difficult for us because when we
(18:42):
do brunch, people just expect that you can get your
eggs anyway they want because they're in New York City
and they usually go to a diner. For example, there's
over easy, there's sunny side up, there's overheard, over medium over,
how many ways can you make an egg? And by
the way, you guys in the diner nail it every
time because you do that so well and you do
that all the time. So for myself, my Lione cooks
in my restaurant. Twice a week, we do brunch, and
(19:04):
all of a sudden we get these very specific orders
for eggs, were like, they should just go to the
diner if they want to expected it that way, because
they'll make it much better than way to do. Sometimes
I think it's just a matter of what the kitchen
is used to. Our kitchen is doing breakfast all day
every day. So the grillman, I guess professionally you would
call them short order cooks. That's their specialty. They're going
(19:25):
to make the eggs anyway someone asked for them, and
the multiple substitutions and the multiple combinations are what they
learned to expect when they train for the job. And
you said, there's like a special agency in New York
that you can get these short order cooks. They know
the lingo, they know how to come in and bang
it out. If they have a job, they can go
there for a week, or if you need a tempt,
you have those people in your pocket. Well, there are
several agencies, but it has been getting a little more
(19:47):
difficult these last few years. The diners are I don't
want to say they're vanishing, but I definitely feel that
there are fewer of them because of I think the
difficulty in running a diner restaurant business is not easy.
Let's face it, we all know that. Now regulars. I
want to talk about regulars because you obviously have a
lot of regulars. You know, everybody and try back guy,
I think, do you walk around the street and cross
somebody on the street and go to sugars light like
(20:08):
that's that guy and that guy well, it's his coffee black,
and this guy wants his tea with a splash of
milk and sweet and low. You know everybody's order, right.
It's a wonderful thing to have so many people from
the neighborhood be your patrons. And of course a lot
of people are creatures of habits, so they like to
get the same thing over and over again, just like
you do. Uh you know, just you could come in
and order bacon one time and your sandwich I might
(20:29):
fall over. But that's the beauty of the diner business.
I think being a member of the community, being a
member of the neighborhood. My favorite part is watching the
little ones grow up. In seventeen years, I've watched kids
go from diapers to almost college. Pretty amazing. My my
kids have eaten there, and I've seen your kids grow up.
And what's the strangest regular order that you know, right
off the top of your head. The one that really
pops out with me is that I had a guy
(20:51):
who just loved eating French toasts with ketchup, which I
just couldn't understand. I mean, it never wanted the butter,
never wanted the roup, just catch up on the French toast.
Another thing that always confused me, But I guess that's
because of my personal preference. Locks and onion omelets. I
never understood them, but they're pretty popular, So why wouldn't
you offer it locks and onion omelets. They're they're probably single.
(21:13):
I mean, we're certainly not looking to get kissed after
their meal, that's for sure. How do you eat your eggs?
How do I eat my eggs? I'm an over easy guy.
I like my over easy eggs. I like a little
running yolk. Yeah, I do too. I like the yolk
to be running. I feel like if it's overcooked, it's
not really working for me. This has been fun, But
I have one other thing. Because I know that there's
such a thing as diner lingo right, and I think
(21:34):
it was more prominent before you got a point of
sale system. But back when I was there, I would
sit there and listen to you with all the lingo,
and there's all this sort of dinner language. And i
wrote out a couple of them, and I'm gonna quiz
you on some of these. Okay, you got you gotta
secon Let see if I still remember? Okayam wreckham break
the yolk. I would guess that one's not one I'm
familiar with. The look. I went on the internet and
(21:56):
found this. Okay, so maybe these maybe these aren't all right,
City juice or dog soup, City juice or dogs. But
I've never heard of that one on water. Okay, there
we go, make it cry, make it cry. Running eggs
would be my It says here had onions. I've never
heard of that one either. You're stumping me. Maybe I
(22:16):
went to the wrong website. Adam and Eve on a raft.
Adam and e neverized two poached things on toast. Okay,
that's a classic Bronx vanilla. Bronx vanilla. It says here
garlic garlic. Okay, dough well done with a cow to
cover toasted bun. It's toasted toasted for hamburger. Buttered toast?
(22:38):
How do you say buttered toast? You had to say, well, no,
Whiskey down is what we used to say for rye
toast because rye sounds a lot like white, and so
when you were calling out the orders, if you were
going to call out rye toast, a lot of times
would be mistaken for white, so they would say whiskey down.
That's that's some pretty incredible lingo. I've never heard that
used before in I'm sure that it's probably different everywhere.
And I've just got one more for you, because this
(22:59):
is probably my favorite, and I've never heard it anywhere.
It's Noah's Boy with Murphy carrying a wreath, with Murphy
carrying a wreath. You just threw that one in there,
didn't no no coming. It's called it's Hammond potatoes with cabbage.
It's interesting. I've never served Hammond potatoes with cabbage before.
I've served corn, beef and cabbage as a special, of course,
(23:19):
always around the same Patti's Day. What are the short
terms that you used to use? Stack back would be
something you'd used for pancakes with bacon. That's pretty much it.
I mean when I came in, you know, we put
in the computer ordering system because there were so many
difficulties with ordering by voice and that lingo is, you know,
going the way of the Dodo. Unfortunately, I used to
remember the frustration. Sometimes you'd look at the thing and
(23:41):
it was like this was to go. It's supposed to
be in a tin and this and that. Well, I
gotta say, you know, thanks so much for coming over
here and and chatting. I say, if anybody's in New
York City the Square Diner, if he's not shooting an
episode of Law and Order, they're usually always open, but
it's a great place for breakfast. You want a real
New York City experience, go have breakfast at the Square Diner.
Thank you, Thank you very much for saying that. I
appreciate it. Mark, thanks for coming back, Thanks for having me.
(24:04):
So that's it on Breakfast. I hope you all enjoyed.
I also want to thank today's guests Heather Art Anderson
and Teddy Carunos, and we'll see you next time. Food
three six is a production of I Heart Radio and
I'm your host, Mark Murphy. A very special thanks to
Emily Carpet, my director of Communications, and producers Nikkiatur and
(24:25):
Christina Everett. Mixing and music by Anna Stump and recording
help from Julian Weller and Yakap Openzer. Thank you to
Bethan Macaluso and Kara Weissenstein for handling research. Food through
Sixty is executive produced by Mang guest at ticket Or.
For more podcasts at my heart Radio, visit the I
Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to
(24:47):
your favorite shows.
Food three sixty with Mark Murphy is a production of
I Heart Radio. When women started entering the workforce, convenience
foods really blew up, and especially breakfast foods because it
was a meal that children could prepare for themselves. And
that was when breakfast cereal as we know it today
really hit the mainstream. That's the beauty of the diner business.
I think being a member of the community, being a
(00:23):
member of the neighborhood. My favorite part is watching the
little ones grow up. In seventeen years, I've watched kids
go from diapers to almost college, so it's been pretty amazing.
You know. Welcome to Food three sixty, the podcast that
serves up some serious of food for thought. I'm your host,
Mark Murphy. Some of you may know me as a
chef and a New York restaurateur. In today's episode, we're
(00:44):
gonna be talking about breakfast. Now. I've cooked up plenty
of breakfast in my life, and I think I know
a thing or two about the subject, but I want
to hear from people whose careers literally revolve around it.
At the top of the show, you heard from my
guest today, Heather Art Anderson and Teddy A. Ruinos. I
spoke to Heather first. She's an author and food writer
from Portland, Oregon. Her first book, Breakfast to History, explores
(01:07):
the origins of the first meal of the day and
I would eventually evolved into a gastronomic spectacle. Heather, thanks
so much for joining me today. Him Mark, thanks for
having me. So I've read in the Middle Ages breakfast
used to be considered a sin. Do you know much
about that. Yeah, in the Middle Ages that they considered
eating breakfast to be too close to the previous meal
(01:28):
because people were still eating dinner in around ten pm
back in those days, and it got attached to gluttony, which,
as we know, is one of the seven deadly sins.
No minor infraction. But you know, people would also go
to bed and then wake up in the middle of
the night, get up and do stuff, have a little snack,
and then go back to bed. And so the way
we structure our days now is very different than how
(01:49):
it was a few hundred years ago. So today the
way breakfast is so people get up there breakfast, they
do launch, they do dinner. When did that sort of
transition into being that was the norm. Well, people started
eating breakfast again and more regularly after the Reformation of
the Church. But also that coincides with the introduction of
caffeinated beverages to Europe. When coffee and tea and chocolate
(02:09):
arrived on the scene. They started changing rules really fast
to make allowances for these things. And then we have
this other great meal that's brunch. When did that come about?
Because I heard somebody came up with that because they
were hungover or something like that. Yeah, our friend Guy
baron Erge Barrener, he wrote a manifesto about it, basically
a plea for brunch, and it basically came down to
(02:33):
a complaint that breakfast was too early, which agree, you know,
too early. Having brunch gives the opportunity to take the
edge off of your hangover with a little hair of
the dog. And so it's the morning meal in which
a little bit of alcohol, you know, nothing too heavy,
but certainly a cocktail is allowed, and it's at a
(02:55):
merciful time of day. It's a little later in the morning. Also,
at this time in history, people were not going to
church as often. It's the late nineteenth century, and going
to church every Sunday, bright and early was less consistently
practiced by the masses, and so it was a little
bit more socially acceptable to sleep in on a Sunday,
And this was just, you know, a chance for people
(03:16):
to get together and while away a Sunday morning, maybe
talk about the kind of trouble they got into the
night before, and just have a nice, relaxed meal. That
kind of progresses from little nibbli pastries up to the
heavier fair But people didn't really want to eat a
bunch of meat and eggs first thing in the morning,
especially on a squirrely stomach after you've been out drinking.
(03:38):
So I think that Mr Berenger's plea was a good one.
And it's interesting is I have restaurants, and you know,
we serve brunch on Saturdays on Sundays. Obviously, economically, we
sort of have stretched it out because it's a good
profit margin for us. Eggs are pretty inexpensive. You can
make some good money on brunch, so we do it
on Saturdays as well as Sundays. But it does still
feel like Sunday is the brunch day. And there's certain
(04:00):
towns I feel like they're like, oh, that's a big
brunch town. Yeah. Portland, Oregon is a big brunch town. Actually,
we've been mocked for it on Portlandia and rightly so.
I mean, we have a lot of brunch places and
most even nice restaurants will do brunch on the weekends
because as you mentioned, it's good for your margins, it's
a low cost, the meal goes quickly and people even
(04:22):
McDonald's makes a lot of money off their breakfast. But
in Portland's people will stand for hours waiting to get
in to a place to get chicken and waffles or
biscuits and gravy. And the episode on Portlandia there was
a breakfast restaurant literally across the street. I think that
was at Bigley Jr. Was was the brunch cook and
he was like, hey, you know, there's got lots of
(04:43):
seats over here, but people would just rather stand in line.
It's like part of their brunch experience. And this is
something where I you know, as a Portland native. Yeah,
it's pretty funny. So obviously one of the things, well
a couple of things that go with brunch is the
Bloody Mary and the Mimosa. So I hear that it's
the eighty five birthday of the Bloody Mary. When did
this come about well, so two different guys claimed the
(05:04):
invention of this cocktail. But juice started becoming a really
common part of breakfast around the twenties, and so I
think that when people were looking at ways to enjoy
alcohol in the morning, adding juice seemed like an acceptable
way to kind of get alcohol's foot in the door
at the breakfast table. But I don't think that the
bloody Mary was initially invented as a brunch beverage. I
(05:26):
think it was just sort of nourishing, invigorating cocktail. And
yet tomato juice was kind of on trend back then.
All of the other ingredients that were added by us
a later dude, the first guy who claimed to have
invented it was just vodka tomato juice. But then Pete Pettio,
I think, is the one who added all of the
horse radish and cell resalt and worcestershire. And I'm not
(05:50):
sure exactly when this garnishing extravaganza began, but I've seen
some pretty crazy stuff put on bloody Mary hamburgers, pieces
of pa It's gone a little far. Actually judged a
bloody Merry competition once for a food festival, and when
they were calling them meat sticks were sticking out of it.
I was like, Okay, we've definitely gone too far here. Yeah,
(06:14):
and then we've also, you know, I travel a lot.
I love going out and seeing the world, and to me,
first of all, different countries obviously have different traditions for breakfast,
and then there's also the different traditions for the breakfast
hangover meal. Like I was in Turkey and everybody's like, oh,
you gotta go have this thing. It's made out of
lamb intestines and when you come out of a club late,
it's street food and they cut it up and they
(06:34):
put it on this big roll of bread and it's
great for a hangover. But there's also the tradition of
breakfast in all these different countries, which I'm fascinated over.
I kind of eat breakfast like a Southeast Asian. I
tend to eat noodles and soup and stewie things for breakfast.
I also have a confession that I don't eat breakfast
first thing in the morning. I actually like just have coffee,
(06:55):
I go work out for an hour, and then I
come home and eat it like ten thirty, and I
usually just myself a bowl of like kim chee stew
or a bowl of some spicy noodles. But that's pretty
consistent with some of the hangover foods you see in
other parts of the world. There's a lot of times
spicy foods, something kind of stewy, you know, you want
something wet in your stomach or your stomach is not
working too hard. But I feel like a lot of
(07:17):
the hangover cure as I see. You know, minuto is
a good hangover cure. That's another spicy o fal dish,
you know, pretty similar to what you said that you
had in Turkey. And also a lot of national dishes
in the world are breakfast dishes. And so I think
that breakfast has really cemented itself as part of the
national culinary identity or the culinary vernacular of different countries.
(07:40):
And that was something that I found pretty interesting. Yeah,
when I was in I think I was in Lima,
somebody told me that the breakfast there that people eat
is like a chicken stock of some sort with big
pieces of chicken and all these things in it. And
they said that's what people usually for breakfast, but it's
also hangover remedy. I have to admit, my favorite hangover
remedy is the kanji. Yeah. I was in China and
I was with these people and like, oh, let me
(08:00):
show you this great breakfast food. It's called kanji. Have
you ever seen this? I'm like, oh my gosh, I
eat that in Chinatown in New York City all the time.
I love it. Yeah, I love joke and kanji. And
that's another thing. You know, a lot of these stewy
things that are great for hangover cures or for brunch,
you can kind of just leave them cooking overnight over
a low fire, and so that adds another layer of
convenience to it. You don't have to do anything. It's
(08:21):
just sitting there in your kitchen already. You mentioned serially
in your book and how it's We're pretty unique here
in America, and I think basically invented it. But I
think the story of how it was invented, if you
could go into it a little bit, I think it's
super interesting and it makes me want to run home
and try and see if this works, because it's very cool. Yeah,
you know, it's one of those happy accidents that so
(08:41):
many good things come from. Will Keith and John Harvey Kellogg,
who were running a Sanitarium in Battle Creek, Michigan. This
is like a day spar You could stay there longer
to get healthy and clean. It was mostly upper class people.
They would stay and have the spa breakfast. And so
the Kellogg boys were experiments thing with some wheat porridge
(09:02):
and it got a little too dried out on the
stove because they had to step away from the kitchen.
So they thought they could try rolling it out into
sheets and see if they could use it that way.
But it just kind of crumbled apart into these little flakes.
And so you know, they were smart and resourceful dudes,
and they decided to give it a shot anyways and
served it to their clientele and the folks at the
sand loved it, and so they started producing it on purpose.
(09:26):
So things get a little tricky then though, because they
started adding corn and other grains that go Ran said quickly,
they have a shorter shelf life. And Will Keith Kellogg
he was an industrialist and a businessman, whereas John Harvey
Kellogg was a doctor. They're both Seventh Day Adventists, so
they're they're vegetarians. They're really kind of keen on clean
(09:47):
living and health. What we think of as hashtag clean
eating today. Will Keith Kellogg had his eye on the
bottom line, which was moving product, and so he wanted
to add preservative sugar and salt to extend the shelf
life of this cereal product. And John Harvey Kellogg was
absolutely adamant that that not happened. He really wanted it
(10:10):
to be a healthful and nutritious product that didn't have
any added preservatives. And the disagreement was this permanent fraternal
rift that I think they died estrange from each other.
Will Keith Kellogg of course founded the Kellogg's Company, which
is still pretty well known today, whereas John Harvey Kellogg
just maintained his sanitarium and was rating health magazines and
(10:31):
it really blew up from there. In fact, corn flakes
now have so much sugar in them that you can't
get them on Wick, on the Women's infintin children's government subsidies.
It's too high and sugar to qualify as a breakfast food.
That's amazing. I mean, I didn't know that there was
such a tear jerking story behind the invention of cereal,
of just upset with each other over a corn flakes.
You know, a lot of interesting breakfast breakthroughs happened around
(10:54):
World War two, well between World War One and World
War Two, when women started entering the workforce, convenience food
really blew up, and especially breakfast foods because it was
a meal that children could prepare for themselves. And that
was when breakfast cereal as we know it today really
hit the mainstream. And actually, you know, breakfast cereals were
the first products that were directly advertised to children. Marketing
(11:15):
changed because of that, and it was just because of
the shift up in demographics of the American workplace. And
wasn't there also a response in World War two for
bacon and it was sort of like a byproduct at
one point. Well, actually it comes a little earlier than that,
was the twenties. And if you want to start talking
about Edward Burnet's, the guy behind the bacon and eggs marketing,
we can certainly get into that. I would love to
(11:37):
hear about it. Edward Burne's is a really cookie guy.
So he's the nephew of Sigmund Freud. He's considered the
father of pr in America, and he had been hired
by various companies. We can thank him for getting women
to smoke lucky strikes. He was the one who came
up with the nickname freedom torches. But the Beachnut Corporation,
(11:57):
they were making ham and bacon, then cured meat products.
And this is around the time when the Kellogg's are
still pretty big. That kind of adventist, clean living food,
a lot of whole grains, juice toast, that kind of
stuff is what people are normally having for breakfast. And
so Beach and Not wants to try to get meat
back on the breakfast table, and they hire Burnet's who
(12:19):
comes up with this idea of pulling doctors, and so
he pulls five thousand doctors. He asks, would you agree
that hearty breakfast is more healthful than a light breakfast?
And doctors, you know, largely agreed, yes, having a party
breakfast is better for you than having a light meal.
And then he says, well, would you consider bacon and
(12:42):
eggs to be a hardy American breakfast? And they're like, well, yes,
And so then he extrapolated and says, you know, five
thousand doctors agree that bacon and eggs is a hearty,
healthy breakfast. And so he was one of the first
people to use expert testimony, And you know, it's funny.
For all the products he was hired remote, he lived
a hundred and three. I mean, that's a long age
(13:03):
for a dude who's basically getting rich promoting cigarettes and bacon.
But I did think it was pretty funny. After his
campaign went viral or whatever the version of virality is,
the American Heart Association was formed within a couple of years.
It's pretty funny how that panned out. Two quick questions
for yourself links or patties when it comes to sausage.
(13:24):
Oh man, um, I really do like a patty. And
how do you do your eggs sunny side up over easy?
Because there's a million ways to do it? Yeah, I
so I raise hands. I have chickens in my backyard.
That's another Portland's cliche, but I have backyard chickens, and
I like a sunny side up over medium. I like
the yoke to be creamy, but I want the whites
set right. That's exactly the way I like it. And
(13:44):
what are the names of your chickens? Because I heard
that's something in Portland, right God? Yeah, so I've got Zelda, Jorda, Sansa,
Aria and Peach. Oh my God, that show is right.
That show is right. You guys name your chickens. I
love it. I love it. Thank you so much for
being here today. Mark more on Food three sixty right
(14:05):
after this quick break, welcome back to Food three sixty.
Sixteen years ago, I built my first restaurant in New
York City. It was called Landmark. And when you're building
a restaurant, you obviously need to eat. And the restaurant
has no food any yet. So lucky for me, there
was a Square Diner right across the street, and that's
where I met Teddy. Teddy Cabrunos. He's the owner of
(14:25):
the Square Diner in New York City's Trebeca neighborhood. He
took over the restaurant from his father in law after
he ran it for thirty years. If anyone knows diner food,
it's Teddy. So Teddy, thanks for being here today. I
was just wondering, do you remember my first order of
the day when I used to go to work. First
of all, thanks for having me on. And of course
I remember what the sandwich was. It was a ham
and egg on it roll. And that hamm and egg
(14:47):
on a roll, I remember sometimes I would sit at
the counter and eat it. But most of the time
I would get it wrapped up, because it goes first
in a piece of parchment paper and then in tinfoil,
and then I used to stick it in my pocket
and walk across the streets, and I always found that
it was better when it sort of steamed for about
five or six minutes, maybe in my pocket, in the
parchment and everything. I feel like when you eat it
(15:08):
the counter, all those flavors didn't meld together. And that's
the way I really really liked it. Do you ever
hear that story from anybody that they like their breakfast
sandwich steamed in their pocket. Well, that's why they wrap
it in the parchment paper rights to get the heat
onto the bread instead of just going straight to the
aluminum foil. So it's kind of like an extra layer
of insulation. Breakfast and diners, I feel like they're synonymous.
Do most people think diners are just for breakfast? I
(15:31):
believe that they do, especially with our place, which is
a very small place and we don't offer that extensive
diner menu with you know, pasta saute stuff like that.
So most of my customers, a lot of my regulars,
the children especially, they don't think of me as a
place where they would eat dinner. They think of me, oh,
this is our breakfast place. And they've said that to
me before. It bothers me a little bit, because you know,
(15:52):
we are a full scale restaurant. But of course breakfast
is one of our specialties, of not our main specialty.
And you even have liqualize. It's you have bottles up there.
Of course, course you gotta serve those bloody Marys at
brunch if you want to do any real profit in
New York anymore. A very important part of brunch is
definitely the bloody mary. Now your place, the Square Diner.
That place is just a classic New York diner. How
would you describe it? It was built by Command Dining
(16:13):
Car Company in the four Days and the fifties. It's
an original train car style diner. Now, it's not a
real train car obviously, and if you came in and
entered the restaurant, you'd see that it's very very tiny.
It's actually probably smaller than a train car. So it's
an original and we've kept it that way. Sometimes I
want to tear the place apart and you know, remodeled,
but it can be difficult to run a restaurant that
has seventy year old fixtures in it. It's a classic
(16:35):
old school place and the character and the architecture is
part of the experience, and which is why we've left
it talking about the character and the architecture of the experience. Now,
if you remodeled, you would lose a huge part of
your business. And from what I know, because whatever, once
in a while you pull up to the diner and
you can't go in because Law and Order is shooting there.
How many times has Law and Order shot in your diner?
(16:56):
Well last year alone it was three times. So we've
been very, very fortun in it. With the filmings. As
a matter of fact, last year we did over ten
different filmings. We had Ray Donovan in there three times
from Showtime, we had Quantico from ABC, we had Bull
from CBS. If you want old school New York, the
Square Diners kind of got the market on that. I mean,
everything nowadays is a glass box with twelve foot ceilings,
(17:18):
so the Square Diners very unique in that sense. Yeah,
you're gonna be able to close down. It's just gonna
be a movie set right now. You won't even have
to serve diner food anymore. That would be a lot easier.
I wish there were that many filmings, but unfortunately now
so you guys serve breakfast all day, and I mean
I can come in there at night and get an
omelet or my beautiful ham and egg sandwich on a roll.
But I think that the fast food chains are catching
(17:38):
onto your trick because I read about fast food places
and they're serving breakfast, but they're also serving breakfast all day.
You think they're coming after your business, Oh for sure.
I think that, Especially if I wanted to call out
one particular fast food place, I'd say McDonald's has been
dinering itself up for the last ten years. The introduction
of grilled chicken, the introduction of salads, breakfast all day
a couple of years ago, and their sales keep going
(17:59):
up because I think that diner model works very very well,
and people love their eggs. You know, I don't think
eggs is limited to just breakfast anymore. Well, as far
as I'm concerned, you already know how to do breakfast
really well. You should just open up a dinner fast
food place and then you'll take care of everything well.
I you know, it's funny. I love the fact that
they're doing it because they're not going to do it
(18:19):
the way that we do it. I don't think you're
ever gonna walk into a fast food place and have
fifteen or twenty different options for your omelet and being
able to order it any way that you like. The
flexibility that we exhibit is very difficult to replicate, especially
in a fast food type of business model. Well, I
have to say that for a restaurateur such as myself,
I obviously have a restaurant here in Manhattan, you seem
to have made it difficult for us because when we
(18:42):
do brunch, people just expect that you can get your
eggs anyway they want because they're in New York City
and they usually go to a diner. For example, there's
over easy, there's sunny side up, there's overheard, over medium over,
how many ways can you make an egg? And by
the way, you guys in the diner nail it every
time because you do that so well and you do
that all the time. So for myself, my Lione cooks
in my restaurant. Twice a week, we do brunch, and
(19:04):
all of a sudden we get these very specific orders
for eggs, were like, they should just go to the
diner if they want to expected it that way, because
they'll make it much better than way to do. Sometimes
I think it's just a matter of what the kitchen
is used to. Our kitchen is doing breakfast all day
every day. So the grillman, I guess professionally you would
call them short order cooks. That's their specialty. They're going
(19:25):
to make the eggs anyway someone asked for them, and
the multiple substitutions and the multiple combinations are what they
learned to expect when they train for the job. And
you said, there's like a special agency in New York
that you can get these short order cooks. They know
the lingo, they know how to come in and bang
it out. If they have a job, they can go
there for a week, or if you need a tempt,
you have those people in your pocket. Well, there are
several agencies, but it has been getting a little more
(19:47):
difficult these last few years. The diners are I don't
want to say they're vanishing, but I definitely feel that
there are fewer of them because of I think the
difficulty in running a diner restaurant business is not easy.
Let's face it, we all know that. Now regulars. I
want to talk about regulars because you obviously have a
lot of regulars. You know, everybody and try back guy,
I think, do you walk around the street and cross
somebody on the street and go to sugars light like
(20:08):
that's that guy and that guy well, it's his coffee black,
and this guy wants his tea with a splash of
milk and sweet and low. You know everybody's order, right.
It's a wonderful thing to have so many people from
the neighborhood be your patrons. And of course a lot
of people are creatures of habits, so they like to
get the same thing over and over again, just like
you do. Uh you know, just you could come in
and order bacon one time and your sandwich I might
(20:29):
fall over. But that's the beauty of the diner business.
I think being a member of the community, being a
member of the neighborhood. My favorite part is watching the
little ones grow up. In seventeen years, I've watched kids
go from diapers to almost college. Pretty amazing. My my
kids have eaten there, and I've seen your kids grow up.
And what's the strangest regular order that you know, right
off the top of your head. The one that really
pops out with me is that I had a guy
(20:51):
who just loved eating French toasts with ketchup, which I
just couldn't understand. I mean, it never wanted the butter,
never wanted the roup, just catch up on the French toast.
Another thing that always confused me, But I guess that's
because of my personal preference. Locks and onion omelets. I
never understood them, but they're pretty popular, So why wouldn't
you offer it locks and onion omelets. They're they're probably single.
(21:13):
I mean, we're certainly not looking to get kissed after
their meal, that's for sure. How do you eat your eggs?
How do I eat my eggs? I'm an over easy guy.
I like my over easy eggs. I like a little
running yolk. Yeah, I do too. I like the yolk
to be running. I feel like if it's overcooked, it's
not really working for me. This has been fun, But
I have one other thing. Because I know that there's
such a thing as diner lingo right, and I think
(21:34):
it was more prominent before you got a point of
sale system. But back when I was there, I would
sit there and listen to you with all the lingo,
and there's all this sort of dinner language. And i
wrote out a couple of them, and I'm gonna quiz
you on some of these. Okay, you got you gotta
secon Let see if I still remember? Okayam wreckham break
the yolk. I would guess that one's not one I'm
familiar with. The look. I went on the internet and
(21:56):
found this. Okay, so maybe these maybe these aren't all right,
City juice or dog soup, City juice or dogs. But
I've never heard of that one on water. Okay, there
we go, make it cry, make it cry. Running eggs
would be my It says here had onions. I've never
heard of that one either. You're stumping me. Maybe I
(22:16):
went to the wrong website. Adam and Eve on a raft.
Adam and e neverized two poached things on toast. Okay,
that's a classic Bronx vanilla. Bronx vanilla. It says here
garlic garlic. Okay, dough well done with a cow to
cover toasted bun. It's toasted toasted for hamburger. Buttered toast?
(22:38):
How do you say buttered toast? You had to say, well, no,
Whiskey down is what we used to say for rye
toast because rye sounds a lot like white, and so
when you were calling out the orders, if you were
going to call out rye toast, a lot of times
would be mistaken for white, so they would say whiskey down.
That's that's some pretty incredible lingo. I've never heard that
used before in I'm sure that it's probably different everywhere.
And I've just got one more for you, because this
(22:59):
is probably my favorite, and I've never heard it anywhere.
It's Noah's Boy with Murphy carrying a wreath, with Murphy
carrying a wreath. You just threw that one in there,
didn't no no coming. It's called it's Hammond potatoes with cabbage.
It's interesting. I've never served Hammond potatoes with cabbage before.
I've served corn, beef and cabbage as a special, of course,
(23:19):
always around the same Patti's Day. What are the short
terms that you used to use? Stack back would be
something you'd used for pancakes with bacon. That's pretty much it.
I mean when I came in, you know, we put
in the computer ordering system because there were so many
difficulties with ordering by voice and that lingo is, you know,
going the way of the Dodo. Unfortunately, I used to
remember the frustration. Sometimes you'd look at the thing and
(23:41):
it was like this was to go. It's supposed to
be in a tin and this and that. Well, I
gotta say, you know, thanks so much for coming over
here and and chatting. I say, if anybody's in New
York City the Square Diner, if he's not shooting an
episode of Law and Order, they're usually always open, but
it's a great place for breakfast. You want a real
New York City experience, go have breakfast at the Square Diner.
Thank you, Thank you very much for saying that. I
appreciate it. Mark, thanks for coming back, Thanks for having me.
(24:04):
So that's it on Breakfast. I hope you all enjoyed.
I also want to thank today's guests Heather Art Anderson
and Teddy Carunos, and we'll see you next time. Food
three six is a production of I Heart Radio and
I'm your host, Mark Murphy. A very special thanks to
Emily Carpet, my director of Communications, and producers Nikkiatur and
(24:25):
Christina Everett. Mixing and music by Anna Stump and recording
help from Julian Weller and Yakap Openzer. Thank you to
Bethan Macaluso and Kara Weissenstein for handling research. Food through
Sixty is executive produced by Mang guest at ticket Or.
For more podcasts at my heart Radio, visit the I
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(24:47):
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