November 29, 2022 • 42 mins
Every season someone brings an "I love this" vs an "I hate this" take. Season 1 brought us loving cilantro vs. hating cilantro and then season 2 brought us the infamous loving butter vs. hating butter and now here we are in season 3 with another spicy (or not spicy depending on your taste) take. Does spicy food have a place? Chef and author Wylie Dufresne is unashamed to say that he thinks spicy food is bad and overrated no matter how many people disagree with him. His friend Chris Ying (The Dave Chang Show, Recipe Club) is here to say spicy food rules. These two came to court with buckets of evidence and it all adds up to one of the best Food Court debates of all time.
The most iconic exchange of season 3 is in this episode and is about how difficult it is to make Pirate Booty, you don't want to miss this!
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
Sorry, dudes, Richard can't find his air horny food court
food Court, food Court with St Blaze argue in the
food court court with Blase Cross food Food. Welcome to
(00:38):
the food court of production of My Heart Radio. I
am Richard Blaze and I am the host and judge
of the food court. You bring me your food arguments
and I settle them once and for all. Joining us
in the court today, we have two amazing guests that
I'm so excited to have them here today with this.
One is a chef of New York City who I've
known for a long time, someone who guess well Crystal
(01:00):
wrote this in but potentially loves molecular astronomy, maybe even
more than me. It's Wiley Defraid. Hello, Hello, Hello, thanks
for having me and my molecular astronomy self. Yeah, I
was gonna say. Question. Question is like, we don't even
like saying that word, do we. Let's be honest, it's
written in the script. Even those who dabble in it
(01:22):
and dabble in the dark arts don't really like the call.
In a pool of liquid nitrogen as we speak, I'm
just one leg in right now. If we were in
studio together, the loser would be dropped into a vat
of liquid nit. That would be like the you know,
like the dunk tank. Well no, I mean my understanding
is is the only two sole pratitions practitioners of the
moleculeaguers tell me left on the planet. We're not allowed
(01:42):
to be in the same room in case there's an
accident or something. You know, we have to keep it,
we have to keep the dream alive. That's why we
are across the world from each other right now. One
of my personal heroes. That will not that will not
affect how this gets judged, because going up against Wiley
today is someone and he's argued with before. By today
we're actually gonna record it. Writer, producer extraordinary, you know,
(02:05):
you know him behind podcasts like Recipe Club and The
Dave Chang Show. It's Chris Yang Mayo. Merrow merrow there. Yeah, no,
you've got seven. You've got seven little bursts from the
air horn. Chris, thanks so much for hanging out with us.
I know you're just super super busy. You just moved.
You got so much going on, you know, It's true,
And I'm I love molecular astronomy as well. I love
(02:27):
deconstructing things. This is great, this is fantastic. I'm a huge, huge,
huge practitioner of the molecular gastronomic arts. Oh man, we
we can cut all of this, guys, and I can't
wait to hear what the two of you have to say.
This one is gonna be a burner for sure. WHILEY
never want to conform to the crowd, has come into
(02:48):
the food court today with I think the hottest, boldest
take that has been on this show and forty something episodes.
But before we get to that, let's chat a little bit. Wiley. Listen,
you just got back from Iceland. Top three fines in Iceland,
a place I've never visited but always have wanted to go. Oh,
I mean, and not not in order of preference, but
(03:08):
I'd say Lamb hot Dog, super delicious. They have that
great hot dog in Iceland, Lamb Lamb with everything. It's great.
It's really good. There's a complete lack of hot sauce,
so it's quite tasty. Geo thermal bath that's pretty fun.
I did a did a geo thermal bath that's pretty awesome.
And I mean the landscape is crazy that I went
to two different waterfalls that were just like like mind blown,
(03:31):
mind blown. So cool. Are there topless photos of you
under a waterfall in Iceland somewhere? No, these are not.
These are like Niagara falls type falls. Not you don't
like like dunking your head under the falls. This is
like it's pretty spectacular, all right. I like the geo
thermal I just got back. I did that. We did
the family trip to yellow Stone, so the geo thermal
(03:52):
stuff is absolutely insane. You know. You know, fun fact,
the word geyser comes from Iceland because the very there's
a there's a geyser in the Guyser's name is geyser,
and all guys are's the world over are called guysers
because of this, because the town of Geyser guys here.
It's pretty cool. It's pretty cool. Yeah, that was cool
to learn. Have you been to Yellowstone? Have you seen
Old Faithful? I have? That's awesome, very cool. Did did
(04:16):
you get the sense that my family is gonna be
so upset with me? But like, wasn't it a little
bit a little bit too much hype for Old Faithful?
Don't you think? I Mean, it's just kind of cool that, like,
you know, the earth that you know the fact that
there's like hot magma that's touching water and it's getting
I mean, I think the process is cool. I thought
it was pretty neat. But what I'm actual like what well? Yeah, So,
(04:38):
like Richard, are you saying like the actual site of
some water coming out of a hole was less than
you expected it to be. I think, in all fairness, Chris,
thank you for sending me down this road. But I've
been in Yellow. We've been there for a couple of days,
so we've done so many geothermal things and and just
like the hype you get to, you get too old faithful,
and it's it's gonna go off, and you know one
(04:58):
oh nine between No. Nine and one twelve, and there's
hundreds of people. Was fourth of July week. It was.
It was just massive. And then I just think, like
our our culture right now that moves so fast and
scrolls so fast through everything, and then it's like, ah,
some water shoots in the air and you're like a
couple hundred years ago, I bet that this was the
most fantastic thing. It's cool. I mean, it's better than
(05:19):
whale watching. I will say that, like when the whale
is like four or five six feet away and you
see a little and you're like, like, I couldn't see
anything little like when you're up against the whale, like
you're petting orco. Okay, that's amazing. But like I think that,
I think I go with guys are over the whale,
that can be here next food court. Guys res versus whales.
(05:40):
I've done. I've done both. I'd say, well watching even
with this, even with the social distance from not interrupting
the whales natural movements, which I support just the subtle
did they support that live and let live? That's how
I feel. Well. We'll get into that in a little
bit too, with regards to spicy plants. But listen, we're
(06:00):
gonna keep going sideways here. But you know what I
did see at Old Faithful, and I recorded this. I'll
send you, not that you guys want this, but if
anyone who's listening once here. The coolest thing I saw
Old Faithful was a raven. By the way, these ravens
that are in yellow Stone, and they're like, it's not
like a crow, it's like a it's like a These
are giant birds. And I saw a raven grab a
(06:21):
piece of pirates booty from a tourist and then bury
it under the ground for later use. No joke. Is
that the most a raven, which they're known to be
super super smart, buried a piece of pirate's booty for
later in the day. That's that's amazing. They're smart because
pirate booty is delicious. Yeah you you, I don't know.
You might think it's burying it for later. Maybe it's
(06:43):
just saving that tourists from having to eat more pirates.
Fair enough, you understand how hard it is to make
pirates booty? No, I don't. It can't. Possibly it's not
worth the effort. Why would it hard to make that?
It's delicious, light and air cheesy, perfect Wiley walk us
(07:04):
through the wicky. No how and how to make a
pirate's booty? Just just generally though, because now I'm curious.
There's some i mean puff snacks. It's probably some sort
of extruded thing, a high pressure extrusion causes it to
expand a couple of different starches, and you know it's
it's that stuff's great. That's so cool and hard, not
that hot. What do you mean It's not like a
(07:25):
pirate is like taking a straw and inflating each little
piece of booty like that, there's no real there's no
pirates involved, Chris. I hate to burst your bubble that
there's no pirates making this. It's I'm coming up with
the technology to extrude and then puff. I agree, was
difficult flipping on the switch each morning to produce sixty
five million pounds of pirate's booty. Not that hard. I'm
(07:46):
not into Pirate's booty because it's like an artisanal craft
as you are. Well, okay, apparently we've touched a nerve.
I'm sorry. I certainly know what I'm getting. My grandfather
is laid off from the Pirate's booty factory. No, I'm
just kidding. Sorry, Yeah, your Christmas present is already wrapped.
I got it. It's just so you know. Trader Joe's
(08:08):
has a catchway Pepe snack, the original. He's the original virus. Hey,
what's that? What's uh? What's what's Peppe? He's he's a
pirate Pepe. I believe is is a little pepper, A
little a little spice makes that better. Mhm. Listen, Chris,
I know you're busy with so many things, and obviously
(08:29):
you have so many strong food opinions. What is one
of your top ten controversial hot takes? Who would have
thought a little a little black pepper might make food
taste better? Anyway? A controversial it would take. People were
pissed at me when I said that. I think the
idea that fruit and cheese are some sort of natural
(08:49):
bedfellows is insane to me. I don't And people like
wooda bout cheddar and apples? What about it? It's disgusting.
I think fruit and cheese is gross that but it's
not a savory sweet thing. It's specific to fruit and cheese.
Got it? No, I like savory sweet. I just think
fruit and cheese. What are you looking at me? You
like you like cheddar and apples? Duchy Wiley? What's this
(09:10):
look you're giving me? Come on, manchego and Quinn's past
d again. People just come back at me saying the
names of fruits and cheese together. That's there's not they're
not good, membrio and and and manchego whatever, it's what
that's it's not good. And watermelon Feta and watermelon is
(09:31):
the biggest biggest colfort I want. I'm talking about textually
horrible just it's just like so unpleasant to eat that.
What do you think fetta watermelon salads? Well know you
should be go cheese. Of course. I would actually prefer
a goat cheese version to a fetta version. There's something
about that that. Come on, fly back to the eighties
(09:51):
with me. Raspberry vinaigrette and goat cheese on a spinach salad.
Come on, Chris, I missed. I missed the aspberry, like
the the artificial raspberry thing. Though this raspberry viniagrette raspberry
iced tea was big. But this was before all of
our time, I think. But Dave ros the raspberry viniagrette thing,
that's I mean, that was a big Yeah, that's like
(10:13):
that's new Veldon. Yeah, that was a modern moment at
some point that was like, whoa, that's a flogged row
with raspberry stashio crusted goat cheese balls. Yes, is watermelon?
Is watermelon the pirate's booty of the fruit world? Chris, No,
it's delicious. I love a watermelon. I do too. I
(10:37):
just crushed something that wasn't even that good and it
was still that delicious, just when it's hot and it's
just drippy and I know, so hey, let me ask
you both the question I've always wondered, I have too
smart food? People here plugging a watermelon? Do you know
like plugging When people say, like I plug a watermelon,
are they just cutting out a little section and checking
the inside? Is that the whole idea? I mean, not
(10:58):
to infuse with like bottle of acca. We're not talking
about that, just like plugging it like you were just
talking about, like people talking about like plugging to find
the right watermelon. I'm almost like like sushi grade tuna.
Yeah wow, But then like doesn't that watermelon just go
bad once it's been plugged? I guess nobody knows what
the answer to this. I don't think that you're meant
to be walking through, you know, down the aisle with
your little tool and like just at the Albertson's taking
(11:22):
a chunk out of each taking a core sample out
of each watermelon, and then deciding which one is right.
I know That's what security said to me yesterday too. Yeah.
I think you're better off whacking the candle opes and
just listening, you know. But but I like the idea
of sort of grading fruit like like sashimi. Like I
think there's something there though, right, Like what if I
what if I plug it and I'm selling them immediately.
(11:43):
I'm like, Okay, this is a great triple a watermelon.
Who wants it? Right? Here's a B minus watermelon. This
is the blue fin of the watermelon world right here. Yeah,
this one would be good with cheese. You just take
a big plug out him and fill it with fetish. Man,
it's we're having too much fun already, but it's time
to get down to business. Whiley tell the court the
(12:05):
case that you brought in today. We are here to
discuss the merits or the lack there of, of hot
spicy food. I think hot spicy food has no place. Wow. Wow,
that is I mean you came in like talk about
the alternative take here, You've got a lot of convincing
(12:28):
spicy food has no place, no, Chris, I'm I'm assuming, well,
I know that you feel differently. Well, earlier you described
this as one of the hottest, boldest takes ever on
the podcast. I would I would argue this is maybe
the mildest timidust take ever ever taken on food. Just
(12:51):
like spicy food has no place this Like, I feel
like this is diabolical on Wiley's part because like it's
it's like having to argue against math like he's he's
sitting here being like, my my take on math is
one plus one is seven, and I have to somehow
argue with this maniac. It's it's it is an opinion,
(13:12):
for sure, Wiley, and I don't usually as a judge.
I want I'm gonna turn off my own personal opinions.
You know that this is all about the debate. But
I will say you you you're you're coming with one
that's gonna be This is gonna be tough to convince
me everyone who's listening. I mean, I was gonna say,
you know, it sounds like you're like if you have
to pick like your like Maine, it's like arguing for
the Benett Main mayonnaise. But I know that you love mayonnaise.
(13:34):
I know that's one of your favorite condiments. It's fine,
and you never add seraci in your manners. No, no,
I don't know, because I would prefer to taste the mannaise.
I mean, where do we begin. I'm sorry, but no,
I don't like things overwhelmingly hot. I find the whole
thing to be absurd. Okay, we're gonna get into that.
(13:54):
You're gonna get into that, Wiley, So hold hold off
your argument there, but before we get into it, just
like most courtrooms, in order to decide who presents their
case first, we have a trivia round. So, because you're
both recording remotely, so you're gonna have to come up
with your own sound effects so that the viewers know
who's chiming in. So, Chris, what do you what is
your sound effect going to be with a trivial round? Well,
(14:16):
I like it like the old school, with a little
bit of a negative tinge to the sound. Right, It's
just the sound of me throwing up a little that's
the best way to describe that. The electric reverb. It's
the old school buzzer. And for Chris Yang and No,
I don't want that. It's it's too associated with a
negative thing. I'm gonna be like I'm gonna do like
a bird sound. I'm just gonna be like a happy bird.
(14:38):
That is a happy and you're not gonna believe it.
You're the second person to do the kaka recently on
the show, and I respect it. I respect it. Have
it just to just to try and keep the street
going on, Wiley, what is your sound effect going to
be the audio media fash. You can't you can't blink
three lights at me. Okay, you've been in iceland for
(15:03):
too long. Well, I'm gonna borrow something from Chris. Maybe
I'll just say math. I like it. There it is.
Oh my god, that's so that it hurts so bad.
It's a monotone math Matt versus a coca. All right,
here we go. The winner of the trivia round is
going to get to decide whether they present their case
first or second. Here we go. Question one? In what
(15:26):
movie did two not so bright guys Harry and Lloyd
dare each other to eat at an atomic That is
gonna be Chris, that's gonna be dumb and dumber. Wow,
Chris did not even wait for the question to be finished,
and he is correct. It's dumb and dumber. Jim Carrey,
Jeff Daniels, The Classic, The Classic? Whiley would you have
(15:48):
got that one? If I finished? Probably not? Probably not.
I did not see that film. I was doing more
of Adam Sandler. What did they dare? What do they
dare themselves? So they dare each other to eat something spicy?
I forget what it was? And atomic pepper? It was
an atomic traffic which wears the atomic pepper on the
Schollville scale. Producer Christal, We gotta find that out, even
though it's a it's a fictitious pepper, I believe, but
(16:09):
we'll figure it out. Okay, here we're question too with
Chris up Zo. When you have a stomach bug, what's
the name of the diet recommended that's so bland your
upset stomach can handle it? It's Christine again, that's the
Brat diet. It is. It is the Brat diet. Chris
Yang just absolutely dominating the trivia around here. Bananas, rice, apples,
(16:32):
sauce and dry toast. Is that right? Not only is
it right, but you get extra credit for explaining the
acronym right there, Banana rise, apple, sauce, and toast. Chris,
how do you know that? Listen, guys, this guy gets
a lot of stomach ache. Scoming for a man who's
got a lot of gastro intestinal issues. But I would
like to explain that since I don't eat spicy food,
(16:52):
I'm unfamiliar with said diet because my gastro intestinal flora
is from spicy food. Man, it is pushing the limits
of lactose it's trying to overcome my intolerance for lactose products.
I'm trying to become a better person, more tolerant. I
love it. Now listen, Wiley. That means you're down to
zero with only one question remaining. But the good thing
(17:13):
is in my court. I get to decide how many
points question three is worth, and it's worth seven points
question three. Surprise, it's worth seven points Wiley. That means,
if you get this one right, you still win the round.
Here we go Question three with Christian up to zero.
What dishes commonly recognized as the spiciest dish in the world.
(17:33):
Diners are often asked to sign a release before eating it. Hint,
it's got ten different types of peppers, including the world's
hottest pepper that I cannot pronounce. On the script the
boots Joel Joel, Lokia, Jeel, Lochia. We're gonna have to say,
we're gonna have the v O that one? About this?
(17:57):
How about this one? The genre the genre of cuisine
that does this dish. We're talking about what type of
food commonly known as the spiciest food in the world.
I believe that would be molecular? Is it is it
friede mayonnaise. Take a guess while get in there. I
(18:19):
want to hear your actual want to hear your buzzer
sound Matt, yes, Wiley, Take a stab Ti cuisine. The
answer is Indian fall fall f pH A. A l
Indian fall contains ten different types of peppers. But what
is the other? There's a what's the more common Indian
(18:40):
spicy dish where usually the cook will wear a gas mask?
You guys help me out with this one. It's I
don't know. I thought maybe I don't. I don't know.
That sounds unpleasant. But have you guys never seen this
is like it's very you know, like I've never seen
so spicy that the cook wears a gas mask so
that they don't inhale all of the fumes. Great idea,
(19:01):
All right, well question three? No one answered Darwin Darwinism
at its finest go and answers questions three, which means
that not by default by the merit of going to
zero Christian you win the trivia around, which means you
get to make the biggest decision of the day, whether
or not you want to present your argument first or second.
Oh no, I defer, I defer. I want to hear
(19:22):
what I want to hear what this gentleman has to
say about spicy food. All right, Chris Young, using baseball philosophy,
wants to be the home team and bat second. That
means Wiley is going to be up first, discussing and
debating why spicy food is not good. We'll be back
right after this break, and we are back in the
(19:48):
food court today to recap. We have the case of
spicy food. Is it bad or is it good? Just
keep it simple, Crystal. I like it the way this
word that. Each of you will have three minutes to
state your case. During the three minutes, you need to
lay out your case and not focus on your opponent's case.
You'll have a two minute rebuttal after the first round. Gentlemen,
(20:10):
do we understand the rules of the food court? Understood?
All right? Here we go. So Wiley, Chef Wiley, you
are up first. You got three minutes to let us
know why non spicy food. I was gonna say bland food,
but I feel like that's sort of like why non
spicy food. Nothing like an impartial judge. I am impartial,
(20:30):
to be clear, I usually say this, but I will
say one more time. I am I am basing the
judgment on the debate, not my own personal feelings, to
be clear, to set the record straight, to be just upfront.
I did have a Popeye spicy chicken sandwich for lunch
that one of our other guests brought in, but that
is just my personal is not how I will judge
the debate while defrain one of my heroes. Basically, it
(20:56):
is unbelievable. You're up first, while you've got three minutes
in your time starts now, I'd like to call for
a move for a mistrial. I mean, where do I begin. Like,
we're not even supposed to eat peppers, chilies, it's a
it's a evolutionary adaptation. The whole point of spicy peppers
(21:18):
was so that the plant could live in peace and
that the predators would leave it alone. You're not even
supposed to eat the thing. It's there, it's it's it's
hot by design so that you won't touch it. It's
an unpleasant experience. Message received, plants. I'm moving on to honeycomb,
thank you very much. Delicious, absolute delicious. But like I mean,
(21:39):
it's also like spicy food. Right. It started in in
in North America and moved around the world five years
ago or so. But you know, and and it's a
vestige from the past. It's like an appendix. We don't
need it anymore. I mean we it was there when
we didn't have refrigeration. I understand people the appeal us.
(22:00):
You know, food was spoiling and going bad and potentially
even rotten. And and but we had to eat it.
We have to consume our food. We have to make
sure we can eat. So let's let's mask the bad parts.
Let's let's soften the edges a little bit. But but
we have refrigeration now. It's it's time to move on.
There's it's that we don't need that anymore. I mean,
(22:21):
if you want to smother your food in something, why
don't you smother your food? And MSG, let's focus on delicious.
Stop hiding the truth about the heat. You know, we don't.
We don't with the heat. I mean we don't. We
don't need it. Food is delicious. You don't have to
hide it. And like this notion about oh, it's I
love it, like it makes me start to sweat, and
it's it's I love the endorphins, the endorphin rush. It's great.
(22:44):
Let's see how hot we can go. Let's just keep
pushing it. The more heat we go, the better. It's
like I'm sweating and I'm and I'm I'm it's so
much fun. I feel good. I mean, that's that's ridiculous.
It makes you sweaty and uncomfortable, right, I mean it's
like that's like, let's like people saying I love to
do yoga. That's not fun either. No, no, I'm sorry,
it's not true. It's not fun. It's I mean, you
(23:06):
want to rush, you want to rush ride the cyclone.
You know, I don't need I don't need flaming hot cheetos. Okay,
that's that's how I feel about the endorphined part and
all that. It's no, no, And then then you eat
it and you know you don't feel good, like gastro
intestinal stuff, upset stomach, you can get an ulcer from
too much. Like it's it's, you know, countless visits to
(23:29):
the bathroom after too much hot food. Everybody's like, oh,
what happened? Well, I'm how you doing well? I had
I had a lot of hot food last night. I'm
spending the day, you know, in in the in the restroom.
It's like, no, thanks, if I need a bathroom break,
I'll have a latte. You know, that's that's a nice
way to get to the rest room. I think, you
know it's a perfectly good good way. But but you know,
you had too much hot food. You had too much
(23:49):
hot food. No big deal. Just have some milk, because
nothing's better than a with a bunch of tacos and
some milk, right Like, that's that's a great, that's a great,
That's that's delicious. That's what I want. I want. I
want to wash it all down and like your taste
buds get all blown out, Like you have a bunch
of hot food and you're in like this crazy zone
where if you're still conscious, you're not enjoying yourself. You
(24:10):
can't taste anything else for the next several minutes, like
or longer. It's there's no there's no joy. I want
to taste the food. I want people make delicious food
and I want to taste it. I want to enjoy it.
I don't want to have this sensation where just you're nothing.
It's there's nothing like no, I'm sorry, it's very hot,
(24:30):
it's unpleasant, and just this like and there's all this
sort of like weird shaming associated like, oh, you don't
like hot food. Oh, that's like I'm supposed to be
embarrassed or ashamed of the fact that I that I
like hot don't like hot food. I like to taste
my food. I like to taste things. Here's a fun
fact trivia fact. Okay, the country with the least spiciest
food in the world happens to be math. I'll give
(24:53):
you the answer. It's Denmark. Denmark has the least spiciest
food in the world, and the country with the best
restaurant in the world also from Marked. Do you think
that that's a coincidence. I don't think so. I think
it's science. I'm done, Wiley, do frame with an impassioned
first three minutes plus evolutionary? Like really like like it's
(25:14):
it's a plant's defense system. Are we supposed to be
eating it at all? Do you want to be in
the bathroom all day? Do you enjoy yoga? So many
questions that while he threw out there three minutes, Chris,
now you get to let us know why spicy food rules.
Your three minutes starts now, all right, I am not
(25:34):
here to defend spiciness as sport. I think that Wiley
and I are probably on the same page. That I'm
not out there buying whatever asked blaster sauce. That's going
to just like ruin my life and my butt hole forever.
I think that that is a different thing. I'm not
here to defend the extremists in my camp. I'm here
(25:55):
to just to say that I think spicy food is
remarkable as when in balance, and I think in appreciation
of spicy food not like a crazy devotion to it
as a singular thing, but an appreciation of spice and
spicy food is a sign of open mindedness, a mature palette, adventurousness,
(26:18):
and um just overall decency as a human being. Chili
peppers are the most used spice and condiment in the world.
They have an essential to the world economy and trade.
Empires have been built on this notion of spice. Our
ability to taste spiciness as humans separates us from snails, frogs,
(26:44):
and birds. These are the animals that can't taste spice.
We are I mean, maybe some of us are are
snails and frogs, but I am not a snail or
a frog. I think that spiciness, whether or not you
are perfect like whether or not you're chasing after extreme
spiciness or not. Spiciness is a tool in in the
in the arsenal of somebody making food. You have these,
(27:08):
you have a very limited number, and we really think
about there's a finite number of tastes and sensations that
you can experience that you can bring to a diner.
It's finite. And spice is a big one, especially what
used in conjunction with sweetness or in with numbing with
different temperature variations. Spice is just another tool in your
in your toolbag. Why would you want to get rid
(27:30):
of that? On a very basic scientific level, spiciness increases
your saliva production and stimulates your appetite. It's actually good
for your digestion to be eating spicy food. I think
that spiciness generally in a meal is a side of sophistication.
If you go to a tie banquet, you will see you, yes,
(27:52):
you will have insanely fiery curries. But they are They're
meant to be eaten a little bit with some some
rice and then you take a cooling bite of an
herb over here, and then you eat them a little
bit of like a relish it's it's not it's I agree,
it's too much to have spiciness when it's just everything
is housed in it. But spice practice properly is a
super sophisticated thing. I don't think you wear spiciness as
(28:15):
a badge of honor or anything like that. But let's
also think about Mapo tofu, one of my favorite dishes
in the world, and one of these things that can
get this reputation for being way too spicy, you know,
just blow you out of the water. But when you're
in Chengdu, when you're in Sish want eating this like
balances everything with this dish, and I think that spice
is essential to it. Wow, I almost want to say,
(28:37):
I want to ask Chris, like, isn't it Isn't it
true like scientifically that eating spicy food, especially in warmer
climates can like help regulate your own body temperature to
sort of get through harsh conditions because one of our things,
one of the things that our bodies do to react
to spiciness is it starts sweating from our foreheads in
our chest and like sweat is there to cool you down.
(28:57):
And I know my time is up here, but no,
but I love the idea that it's a plant's defense,
but it also regulates the human body, and maybe those
two arguments sort of have equalled out right there. What
a round? What a first round? I also love Listen.
I don't think either of you really separating yourselves from
the extremists. Wiley is not saying that non spicy food
(29:18):
is bland, not at all. He's saying the country with
the least amount of spicy food has arguably the best restaurants,
right um, And and Chris saying no, he's not with
the extremists that want to just go buy a can
of as blaster, which I don't know if it's a
real thing, but I just wanted to say it myself
because it's fun to say. And I love economy, the world,
(29:38):
global trade, coming into the equation. After one round, I'd
like to see the I'd like to see those facts.
I got some I got some facts of years to
check to my friend. Okay, listen, this this court will,
of course facts check all of the polls that have
been used. This is a court with lots of integrity.
(30:00):
While you may you may approach the bench, no, you
can be heard. I just wanted to point out that
spice is actually not one of the taste that Chris
kept saying over and over again. It is not one
of the taste. It is not bitter, sweet, salty, sour
or mommy spice hot is not in there. That is incorrect. Anecdotally,
this judge would like to take a moment to tell
the court that, you know, a year ago or so,
(30:21):
this job I had COVID. Guys, I had COVID a
year ago, and I was one of these people that
lost my sense of smell, and as a chef, it
was super, super scary, and it was you know, for
for like sixty days at least until it started to
really start coming back. You know that what I did
not lose my sense of taste, which we all know
is barely separated from smell. They work so much together.
(30:44):
But the only thing that I could really enjoy was
super spicy foods. It was the i I'd have to
get even for me, like extra spice, because it was
the only thing that I could register as taste. It's anecdotal.
It's not gonna make away into this judge totally seems
like a fair fight. This totally seems unbiased and totally fair.
This is I feel I feel great. I feel so good.
(31:07):
It will this will be fair, and you know what,
I love, Wiley. One of the from your first three
minutes there the the I don't like spicy food shaming.
I think that is an absolute great point. If you
like certain foods, you like certain foods, if you don't
like only one person on the planet is being shamed
for not like spicy And it's not like he's like
standing up for the community of people like this underserved
(31:30):
community of people who don't like spicy food. It's just him.
Well we'll see how many people comment on that, Chris.
But here we go. Time for the two minute rebuttal. So, Wiley,
you're gonna be up first year. Now you've got two
minutes to let Chris know why spicy food is horrible,
why it's just a horrible thing. And your two minutes starts. Now.
I mean again, I I call into questions some of
(31:54):
Chris's arguments. I don't know. I mean, yes, spice was
the spice trade, the spice out, all of that. One
of the earliest forms of cultural appropriation was bringing spices
around the world. Perhaps, But again, I I just I
think that there are very few people that that have
this so called mastery of which Chris is referring to,
(32:16):
and that the contrary is infinitely more more popular and
and and pervasive. Is this this this idea of just
like that slice of pizza that that we spent three
years trying to figure out how to make for you,
where's that jilly flegs? Like come on, like that's there's no,
there's nothing there, like what stay home? I don't need
you to come into the place like there's I just
(32:39):
I don't. I think that it's the opposite. People are
constantly trying to see how hard they can go. There's
there's Yeah, there are a few people out there maybe
that are just tweaking it and fine tuning it. And
I did say that the cacho pepe puffs at Trader
Joe's are delicious and there smartly balanced. But you know again,
Italian food is is of all the countries that we're
(33:00):
talking about here, Italy is not famous for its laying
on of the hot spicy foods. You know, it's it's
a judicious use of pepper that's softened by a ton
of dairy. But you know, I just I find this
this notion that that it that it it defines you
and your credibility as a chef or somehow to to
not only consume and eat a bunch of stuff, but
(33:21):
like how hot can you make it? Mapo tofu is
always excruciating. It's always excruciating, you know. I mean again,
I've never been to China. I I so I I
know not of what I speak, perhaps because I have
not had had it done by the Mapo Tofu monk himself,
and I look forward to trying it. But I just
think that there's there's I disagree that it's that. There's
(33:46):
what the use of spice is an effort to find balance,
It's not, it's a it's an effort to shock and awe.
All right. I like it the difference there between black
pepper and chili peppers, right, like really saying that this
is not out, you know, just just making things tasty
using pepper like black pepper, but like the overuse perhaps
(34:06):
of chilies, and that it doesn't have to define you.
And also a great note there Wiley on and for
someone who has competed, judged on so many TV shows
or whatever, like it becomes a thing where a competitor
on this on show is just like I have to
have high spice, highest cidity. I have to blow out
the judge's palette because I got fifteen other dishes that
I have to stand out from. And sometimes if someone
(34:28):
who's been in that, it's like, oh, I have to
stand out from the peach drizzled with olive oil. Let
me hit them with some spice and highest cidity. So
good points taken in the rebuttal Chris, you got two
minutes now to let while you know why he's absolutely wrong.
I know you're going to enjoy it. Your two minutes
starts now. I'm gonna I'm gonna be generous and spend
a couple of seconds agreeing that anybody who challenges the
credibility of a chef or whatever because they don't like
(34:50):
a certain taste is crazy, Like Wiley, is proof that
you have strong opinions and preferences and still be one
of the great chefs in the world. I'll grant you that,
but I'm going to reaput a bunch of stuff you
it earlier. First, this idea that chilies don't want to
be eaten because and that's why they're spicy. It's a
protection for the plant being delicious has created has spread
chilies all over the world. Being delicious is what has
(35:14):
ensured their survival and spread to the entire planet. That
is why they were spread, and animals did spread them.
By the way, birds are responsible for spreading most chilies. Second,
you know, you talk about it being a vestige of
the old world five years ago, how we ate blah
blah blah, we have refrigeration. Now I look at it
this way. I think it's a connection to the pre
Columbian America's because the four species of chili we eat today,
(35:39):
all chilies are derived from the same four species. Those
are the four species that Native Americans first cultivated, and
we have not improved on what they did all those
years ago. Next, you're saying, like, nobody likes to feel
sweaty and these endorphins and it's gross and you feel yucky.
Almost everything in life that makes you sweat is good.
Exercise good, being uncomfortable, nervous in a situation good for you, sex,
(36:04):
good for you. All of these things are good things
for eating spicy food food good. You know, whiley said
tacos with milk is a bad, bad idea, that's disgusting.
Tacos without spice also not good, Like you can't eat
them without without spiciness, you can get an ulcer tummy, eg.
From eating too much spice. You can die from eating
too much of anything. That's not a defining characteristic of
(36:26):
chili peppers. And then you wanted to cite the great
Noma and Renee rad Zeppi and Danish food as a
an example of where great food thrives without chili peppers. Wiley,
If you go to Noma today and you walk through
the greenhouse, what is Renee ra Zeppe growing in his
greenhouse a bunch of chili peppers that he brought back
(36:46):
from Mexico, Because that dude loves spice. So if the
greatest chef of the greatest restaurant is cooking with chilis,
I don't know that seems like an argument on my
side more than yours. Wow. Well, the only thing that
this judge will have to make a note is you know,
we're talking about the greatest cheft of his time, and
to me, that's Wiley. So, I mean, I love Renee,
(37:08):
but I mean I'm just gonna get I mean again,
it's not gonna factor into my judgment. But when we're
talking greatest. We're getting into goats. It's true, It's true.
That's wild defra Okay, you guys have given me a
ton to think about. I'll take a quick break and
we'll be right back. All right, We are back, and
(37:33):
I have made up my mind, I think. But before
I give my final verdict, do either of you have
a final word you'd like to say to the court.
This is your last chance to further convince me or
change my mind again. You know, I feel like we
had a pretty good run at w D fifty over
thirteen years, and there was very little use of spice.
(37:56):
It was. There were a lot of things. People criticized
us for a lot, a lot, and at no point
did anyone say I wish the food was spice here,
my drop. I agree with Wiley that the sort of
unjudicious just random housing with chili flakes, housing with hot
sauce onto anything you're eating. How spicy can we make it?
(38:17):
Is not a good practice. But the argument was spicy
food has no place, which I feel like has not
been proven here today. There's you haven't even gotten close
to the idea that spicy food has no place. I mean,
w D fifty had a beautiful and important run with
very little spice. Mexican food has had a longer run
(38:39):
with a lot of spice. Mexico had a better lease.
It's true, it's true, and so far hasn't you know. Alright,
an epic battle here, and I think that this court
has made up its mind. It's a tough one, and
I'll be honest, the verdict is gonna come down here.
It's it's, it's it's it's gonna get pretty technical here.
(39:00):
Some of the great arguments that were made during the debate,
the evolutionary side of it, that plants were protect themselves
to not eat it, and then Christian with a great
response that it propagated plant life because by being so
delicious that it's spread and that's how you get more chilies.
You know, maybe it's not spice. Maybe it's msg as
Wiley said that that's the thing that truly makes food
(39:21):
delicious is spice, even a flavor. Can you blow out
someone's palid and just destroy the flavor of everything with spice?
You can? This one really, really, this one was tough.
Comes down to I think the technicality here, the technicality here,
and the technicality is that spice has no place. This
court disagrees, this court favors spicy food. Well not not
(39:51):
the extremists. This this, this podcast will not be sponsored
by Asked Blaster three thousand anytime soon, nor will we
be having some sort of really spicy cook off for
game to play on the podcast to see if anyone
can eat the one chip challenge or whatever it is.
But I do think that there's there's some merit for
some spice. Wiley, They're right, though, it's it. It has
(40:12):
to be in the hands of a master. I'm certainly
not that person. It's okay, you know, I understand. You know.
For the record, I am still a big fan of
Professor Yang, and I am honored to have had a
dialogue with him about the subject. Yeah, And I mean
we've been Wiley and I we had this conversation, this
(40:33):
argument off the air many times, and and I actually
I do I will say this, I do disagree with
Wiley fundamentally on spicy food. But more than more than
that disagreement, I appreciate that Wiley exists and Wiley has
his opinion and like will not be shamed out of it,
will not bow to the extremists. Wiley you're you're, you're,
(40:56):
you're perhaps defeated but undeterred. Yeah, well, I mean story
that's gonna say that, I'm my gravestone. Thank you very much.
That's that's that's okay. But I do think listen, I mean,
the chemistry amongst the both of you was pretty amazing. Like,
thank you everyone for listening to Food Court. I'm Richard Blaze.
(41:17):
For more Wiley, you can find him on Instagram at
Wiley do Frame and pick up his cookbook w D
fifty the Cookbook for his recipes. I'm holding onto a
signed copy. There's only two copies left, so grandam while
you can, oh go get him, go get the reprints
coming soon, I hope. And for more Chris, you can
catch him on The Recipe Club and the Dave Chang
Show podcast where they're just crushing it and he's written
(41:38):
books like Ivan Romen, The Mission, Chinese Food Cookbook and
You and I Eat the Same sending what do you think?
I know half of you think that I got this wrong.
Maybe well maybe in this case, I think that I
got this wrong. But if you're dying to share your opinion,
don't hold back. Let me know on Twitter and Instagram.
At Richard Blazer on the TikTok at Richard Blaze Official
and find the show on Instagram at food Court Pod
(41:59):
to let us know, food Court is a production of
I Heart Radio. I'm Richard Blaze. My producer is Crystal
Bomahi Food Corp. Was created by Christopher hasciyotas the rest
of my food Court clerks or Jonathan Dressler, David Wasserman,
and Jasmine Blaze. Our theme song is by Jason NI Smith.
For more podcasts for My Heart Radio, visit the I
Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to
your favorite shows. Awesome, Enjoy the rest of you day. Guys,
(42:21):
Bass super fun. Thanks Chris, you're the best.
Sorry, dudes, Richard can't find his air horny food court
food Court, food Court with St Blaze argue in the
food court court with Blase Cross food Food. Welcome to
(00:38):
the food court of production of My Heart Radio. I
am Richard Blaze and I am the host and judge
of the food court. You bring me your food arguments
and I settle them once and for all. Joining us
in the court today, we have two amazing guests that
I'm so excited to have them here today with this.
One is a chef of New York City who I've
known for a long time, someone who guess well Crystal
(01:00):
wrote this in but potentially loves molecular astronomy, maybe even
more than me. It's Wiley Defraid. Hello, Hello, Hello, thanks
for having me and my molecular astronomy self. Yeah, I
was gonna say. Question. Question is like, we don't even
like saying that word, do we. Let's be honest, it's
written in the script. Even those who dabble in it
(01:22):
and dabble in the dark arts don't really like the call.
In a pool of liquid nitrogen as we speak, I'm
just one leg in right now. If we were in
studio together, the loser would be dropped into a vat
of liquid nit. That would be like the you know,
like the dunk tank. Well no, I mean my understanding
is is the only two sole pratitions practitioners of the
moleculeaguers tell me left on the planet. We're not allowed
(01:42):
to be in the same room in case there's an
accident or something. You know, we have to keep it,
we have to keep the dream alive. That's why we
are across the world from each other right now. One
of my personal heroes. That will not that will not
affect how this gets judged, because going up against Wiley
today is someone and he's argued with before. By today
we're actually gonna record it. Writer, producer extraordinary, you know,
(02:05):
you know him behind podcasts like Recipe Club and The
Dave Chang Show. It's Chris Yang Mayo. Merrow merrow there. Yeah, no,
you've got seven. You've got seven little bursts from the
air horn. Chris, thanks so much for hanging out with us.
I know you're just super super busy. You just moved.
You got so much going on, you know, It's true,
And I'm I love molecular astronomy as well. I love
(02:27):
deconstructing things. This is great, this is fantastic. I'm a huge, huge,
huge practitioner of the molecular gastronomic arts. Oh man, we
we can cut all of this, guys, and I can't
wait to hear what the two of you have to say.
This one is gonna be a burner for sure. WHILEY
never want to conform to the crowd, has come into
(02:48):
the food court today with I think the hottest, boldest
take that has been on this show and forty something episodes.
But before we get to that, let's chat a little bit. Wiley. Listen,
you just got back from Iceland. Top three fines in Iceland,
a place I've never visited but always have wanted to go. Oh,
I mean, and not not in order of preference, but
(03:08):
I'd say Lamb hot Dog, super delicious. They have that
great hot dog in Iceland, Lamb Lamb with everything. It's great.
It's really good. There's a complete lack of hot sauce,
so it's quite tasty. Geo thermal bath that's pretty fun.
I did a did a geo thermal bath that's pretty awesome.
And I mean the landscape is crazy that I went
to two different waterfalls that were just like like mind blown,
(03:31):
mind blown. So cool. Are there topless photos of you
under a waterfall in Iceland somewhere? No, these are not.
These are like Niagara falls type falls. Not you don't
like like dunking your head under the falls. This is
like it's pretty spectacular, all right. I like the geo
thermal I just got back. I did that. We did
the family trip to yellow Stone, so the geo thermal
(03:52):
stuff is absolutely insane. You know. You know, fun fact,
the word geyser comes from Iceland because the very there's
a there's a geyser in the Guyser's name is geyser,
and all guys are's the world over are called guysers
because of this, because the town of Geyser guys here.
It's pretty cool. It's pretty cool. Yeah, that was cool
to learn. Have you been to Yellowstone? Have you seen
Old Faithful? I have? That's awesome, very cool. Did did
(04:16):
you get the sense that my family is gonna be
so upset with me? But like, wasn't it a little
bit a little bit too much hype for Old Faithful?
Don't you think? I Mean, it's just kind of cool that, like,
you know, the earth that you know the fact that
there's like hot magma that's touching water and it's getting
I mean, I think the process is cool. I thought
it was pretty neat. But what I'm actual like what well? Yeah, So,
(04:38):
like Richard, are you saying like the actual site of
some water coming out of a hole was less than
you expected it to be. I think, in all fairness, Chris,
thank you for sending me down this road. But I've
been in Yellow. We've been there for a couple of days,
so we've done so many geothermal things and and just
like the hype you get to, you get too old faithful,
and it's it's gonna go off, and you know one
(04:58):
oh nine between No. Nine and one twelve, and there's
hundreds of people. Was fourth of July week. It was.
It was just massive. And then I just think, like
our our culture right now that moves so fast and
scrolls so fast through everything, and then it's like, ah,
some water shoots in the air and you're like a
couple hundred years ago, I bet that this was the
most fantastic thing. It's cool. I mean, it's better than
(05:19):
whale watching. I will say that, like when the whale
is like four or five six feet away and you
see a little and you're like, like, I couldn't see
anything little like when you're up against the whale, like
you're petting orco. Okay, that's amazing. But like I think that,
I think I go with guys are over the whale,
that can be here next food court. Guys res versus whales.
(05:40):
I've done. I've done both. I'd say, well watching even
with this, even with the social distance from not interrupting
the whales natural movements, which I support just the subtle
did they support that live and let live? That's how
I feel. Well. We'll get into that in a little
bit too, with regards to spicy plants. But listen, we're
(06:00):
gonna keep going sideways here. But you know what I
did see at Old Faithful, and I recorded this. I'll
send you, not that you guys want this, but if
anyone who's listening once here. The coolest thing I saw
Old Faithful was a raven. By the way, these ravens
that are in yellow Stone, and they're like, it's not
like a crow, it's like a it's like a These
are giant birds. And I saw a raven grab a
(06:21):
piece of pirates booty from a tourist and then bury
it under the ground for later use. No joke. Is
that the most a raven, which they're known to be
super super smart, buried a piece of pirate's booty for
later in the day. That's that's amazing. They're smart because
pirate booty is delicious. Yeah you you, I don't know.
You might think it's burying it for later. Maybe it's
(06:43):
just saving that tourists from having to eat more pirates.
Fair enough, you understand how hard it is to make
pirates booty? No, I don't. It can't. Possibly it's not
worth the effort. Why would it hard to make that?
It's delicious, light and air cheesy, perfect Wiley walk us
(07:04):
through the wicky. No how and how to make a
pirate's booty? Just just generally though, because now I'm curious.
There's some i mean puff snacks. It's probably some sort
of extruded thing, a high pressure extrusion causes it to
expand a couple of different starches, and you know it's
it's that stuff's great. That's so cool and hard, not
that hot. What do you mean It's not like a
(07:25):
pirate is like taking a straw and inflating each little
piece of booty like that, there's no real there's no
pirates involved, Chris. I hate to burst your bubble that
there's no pirates making this. It's I'm coming up with
the technology to extrude and then puff. I agree, was
difficult flipping on the switch each morning to produce sixty
five million pounds of pirate's booty. Not that hard. I'm
(07:46):
not into Pirate's booty because it's like an artisanal craft
as you are. Well, okay, apparently we've touched a nerve.
I'm sorry. I certainly know what I'm getting. My grandfather
is laid off from the Pirate's booty factory. No, I'm
just kidding. Sorry, Yeah, your Christmas present is already wrapped.
I got it. It's just so you know. Trader Joe's
(08:08):
has a catchway Pepe snack, the original. He's the original virus. Hey,
what's that? What's uh? What's what's Peppe? He's he's a
pirate Pepe. I believe is is a little pepper, A
little a little spice makes that better. Mhm. Listen, Chris,
I know you're busy with so many things, and obviously
(08:29):
you have so many strong food opinions. What is one
of your top ten controversial hot takes? Who would have
thought a little a little black pepper might make food
taste better? Anyway? A controversial it would take. People were
pissed at me when I said that. I think the
idea that fruit and cheese are some sort of natural
(08:49):
bedfellows is insane to me. I don't And people like
wooda bout cheddar and apples? What about it? It's disgusting.
I think fruit and cheese is gross that but it's
not a savory sweet thing. It's specific to fruit and cheese.
Got it? No, I like savory sweet. I just think
fruit and cheese. What are you looking at me? You
like you like cheddar and apples? Duchy Wiley? What's this
(09:10):
look you're giving me? Come on, manchego and Quinn's past
d again. People just come back at me saying the
names of fruits and cheese together. That's there's not they're
not good, membrio and and and manchego whatever, it's what
that's it's not good. And watermelon Feta and watermelon is
(09:31):
the biggest biggest colfort I want. I'm talking about textually
horrible just it's just like so unpleasant to eat that.
What do you think fetta watermelon salads? Well know you
should be go cheese. Of course. I would actually prefer
a goat cheese version to a fetta version. There's something
about that that. Come on, fly back to the eighties
(09:51):
with me. Raspberry vinaigrette and goat cheese on a spinach salad.
Come on, Chris, I missed. I missed the aspberry, like
the the artificial raspberry thing. Though this raspberry viniagrette raspberry
iced tea was big. But this was before all of
our time, I think. But Dave ros the raspberry viniagrette thing,
that's I mean, that was a big Yeah, that's like
(10:13):
that's new Veldon. Yeah, that was a modern moment at
some point that was like, whoa, that's a flogged row
with raspberry stashio crusted goat cheese balls. Yes, is watermelon?
Is watermelon the pirate's booty of the fruit world? Chris, No,
it's delicious. I love a watermelon. I do too. I
(10:37):
just crushed something that wasn't even that good and it
was still that delicious, just when it's hot and it's
just drippy and I know, so hey, let me ask
you both the question I've always wondered, I have too
smart food? People here plugging a watermelon? Do you know
like plugging When people say, like I plug a watermelon,
are they just cutting out a little section and checking
the inside? Is that the whole idea? I mean, not
(10:58):
to infuse with like bottle of acca. We're not talking
about that, just like plugging it like you were just
talking about, like people talking about like plugging to find
the right watermelon. I'm almost like like sushi grade tuna.
Yeah wow, But then like doesn't that watermelon just go
bad once it's been plugged? I guess nobody knows what
the answer to this. I don't think that you're meant
to be walking through, you know, down the aisle with
your little tool and like just at the Albertson's taking
(11:22):
a chunk out of each taking a core sample out
of each watermelon, and then deciding which one is right.
I know That's what security said to me yesterday too. Yeah.
I think you're better off whacking the candle opes and
just listening, you know. But but I like the idea
of sort of grading fruit like like sashimi. Like I
think there's something there though, right, Like what if I
what if I plug it and I'm selling them immediately.
(11:43):
I'm like, Okay, this is a great triple a watermelon.
Who wants it? Right? Here's a B minus watermelon. This
is the blue fin of the watermelon world right here. Yeah,
this one would be good with cheese. You just take
a big plug out him and fill it with fetish. Man,
it's we're having too much fun already, but it's time
to get down to business. Whiley tell the court the
(12:05):
case that you brought in today. We are here to
discuss the merits or the lack there of, of hot
spicy food. I think hot spicy food has no place. Wow. Wow,
that is I mean you came in like talk about
the alternative take here, You've got a lot of convincing
(12:28):
spicy food has no place, no, Chris, I'm I'm assuming, well,
I know that you feel differently. Well, earlier you described
this as one of the hottest, boldest takes ever on
the podcast. I would I would argue this is maybe
the mildest timidust take ever ever taken on food. Just
(12:51):
like spicy food has no place this Like, I feel
like this is diabolical on Wiley's part because like it's
it's like having to argue against math like he's he's
sitting here being like, my my take on math is
one plus one is seven, and I have to somehow
argue with this maniac. It's it's it is an opinion,
(13:12):
for sure, Wiley, and I don't usually as a judge.
I want I'm gonna turn off my own personal opinions.
You know that this is all about the debate. But
I will say you you you're you're coming with one
that's gonna be This is gonna be tough to convince
me everyone who's listening. I mean, I was gonna say,
you know, it sounds like you're like if you have
to pick like your like Maine, it's like arguing for
the Benett Main mayonnaise. But I know that you love mayonnaise.
(13:34):
I know that's one of your favorite condiments. It's fine,
and you never add seraci in your manners. No, no,
I don't know, because I would prefer to taste the mannaise.
I mean, where do we begin. I'm sorry, but no,
I don't like things overwhelmingly hot. I find the whole
thing to be absurd. Okay, we're gonna get into that.
(13:54):
You're gonna get into that, Wiley, So hold hold off
your argument there, but before we get into it, just
like most courtrooms, in order to decide who presents their
case first, we have a trivia round. So, because you're
both recording remotely, so you're gonna have to come up
with your own sound effects so that the viewers know
who's chiming in. So, Chris, what do you what is
your sound effect going to be with a trivial round? Well,
(14:16):
I like it like the old school, with a little
bit of a negative tinge to the sound. Right, It's
just the sound of me throwing up a little that's
the best way to describe that. The electric reverb. It's
the old school buzzer. And for Chris Yang and No,
I don't want that. It's it's too associated with a
negative thing. I'm gonna be like I'm gonna do like
a bird sound. I'm just gonna be like a happy bird.
(14:38):
That is a happy and you're not gonna believe it.
You're the second person to do the kaka recently on
the show, and I respect it. I respect it. Have
it just to just to try and keep the street
going on, Wiley, what is your sound effect going to
be the audio media fash. You can't you can't blink
three lights at me. Okay, you've been in iceland for
(15:03):
too long. Well, I'm gonna borrow something from Chris. Maybe
I'll just say math. I like it. There it is.
Oh my god, that's so that it hurts so bad.
It's a monotone math Matt versus a coca. All right,
here we go. The winner of the trivia round is
going to get to decide whether they present their case
first or second. Here we go. Question one? In what
(15:26):
movie did two not so bright guys Harry and Lloyd
dare each other to eat at an atomic That is
gonna be Chris, that's gonna be dumb and dumber. Wow,
Chris did not even wait for the question to be finished,
and he is correct. It's dumb and dumber. Jim Carrey,
Jeff Daniels, The Classic, The Classic? Whiley would you have
(15:48):
got that one? If I finished? Probably not? Probably not.
I did not see that film. I was doing more
of Adam Sandler. What did they dare? What do they
dare themselves? So they dare each other to eat something spicy?
I forget what it was? And atomic pepper? It was
an atomic traffic which wears the atomic pepper on the
Schollville scale. Producer Christal, We gotta find that out, even
though it's a it's a fictitious pepper, I believe, but
(16:09):
we'll figure it out. Okay, here we're question too with
Chris up Zo. When you have a stomach bug, what's
the name of the diet recommended that's so bland your
upset stomach can handle it? It's Christine again, that's the
Brat diet. It is. It is the Brat diet. Chris
Yang just absolutely dominating the trivia around here. Bananas, rice, apples,
(16:32):
sauce and dry toast. Is that right? Not only is
it right, but you get extra credit for explaining the
acronym right there, Banana rise, apple, sauce, and toast. Chris,
how do you know that? Listen, guys, this guy gets
a lot of stomach ache. Scoming for a man who's
got a lot of gastro intestinal issues. But I would
like to explain that since I don't eat spicy food,
(16:52):
I'm unfamiliar with said diet because my gastro intestinal flora
is from spicy food. Man, it is pushing the limits
of lactose it's trying to overcome my intolerance for lactose products.
I'm trying to become a better person, more tolerant. I
love it. Now listen, Wiley. That means you're down to
zero with only one question remaining. But the good thing
(17:13):
is in my court. I get to decide how many
points question three is worth, and it's worth seven points
question three. Surprise, it's worth seven points Wiley. That means,
if you get this one right, you still win the round.
Here we go Question three with Christian up to zero.
What dishes commonly recognized as the spiciest dish in the world.
(17:33):
Diners are often asked to sign a release before eating it. Hint,
it's got ten different types of peppers, including the world's
hottest pepper that I cannot pronounce. On the script the
boots Joel Joel, Lokia, Jeel, Lochia. We're gonna have to say,
we're gonna have the v O that one? About this?
(17:57):
How about this one? The genre the genre of cuisine
that does this dish. We're talking about what type of
food commonly known as the spiciest food in the world.
I believe that would be molecular? Is it is it
friede mayonnaise. Take a guess while get in there. I
(18:19):
want to hear your actual want to hear your buzzer
sound Matt, yes, Wiley, Take a stab Ti cuisine. The
answer is Indian fall fall f pH A. A l
Indian fall contains ten different types of peppers. But what
is the other? There's a what's the more common Indian
(18:40):
spicy dish where usually the cook will wear a gas mask?
You guys help me out with this one. It's I
don't know. I thought maybe I don't. I don't know.
That sounds unpleasant. But have you guys never seen this
is like it's very you know, like I've never seen
so spicy that the cook wears a gas mask so
that they don't inhale all of the fumes. Great idea,
(19:01):
All right, well question three? No one answered Darwin Darwinism
at its finest go and answers questions three, which means
that not by default by the merit of going to
zero Christian you win the trivia around, which means you
get to make the biggest decision of the day, whether
or not you want to present your argument first or second.
Oh no, I defer, I defer. I want to hear
(19:22):
what I want to hear what this gentleman has to
say about spicy food. All right, Chris Young, using baseball philosophy,
wants to be the home team and bat second. That
means Wiley is going to be up first, discussing and
debating why spicy food is not good. We'll be back
right after this break, and we are back in the
(19:48):
food court today to recap. We have the case of
spicy food. Is it bad or is it good? Just
keep it simple, Crystal. I like it the way this
word that. Each of you will have three minutes to
state your case. During the three minutes, you need to
lay out your case and not focus on your opponent's case.
You'll have a two minute rebuttal after the first round. Gentlemen,
(20:10):
do we understand the rules of the food court? Understood?
All right? Here we go. So Wiley, Chef Wiley, you
are up first. You got three minutes to let us
know why non spicy food. I was gonna say bland food,
but I feel like that's sort of like why non
spicy food. Nothing like an impartial judge. I am impartial,
(20:30):
to be clear, I usually say this, but I will
say one more time. I am I am basing the
judgment on the debate, not my own personal feelings, to
be clear, to set the record straight, to be just upfront.
I did have a Popeye spicy chicken sandwich for lunch
that one of our other guests brought in, but that
is just my personal is not how I will judge
the debate while defrain one of my heroes. Basically, it
(20:56):
is unbelievable. You're up first, while you've got three minutes
in your time starts now, I'd like to call for
a move for a mistrial. I mean, where do I begin. Like,
we're not even supposed to eat peppers, chilies, it's a
it's a evolutionary adaptation. The whole point of spicy peppers
(21:18):
was so that the plant could live in peace and
that the predators would leave it alone. You're not even
supposed to eat the thing. It's there, it's it's it's
hot by design so that you won't touch it. It's
an unpleasant experience. Message received, plants. I'm moving on to honeycomb,
thank you very much. Delicious, absolute delicious. But like I mean,
(21:39):
it's also like spicy food. Right. It started in in
in North America and moved around the world five years
ago or so. But you know, and and it's a
vestige from the past. It's like an appendix. We don't
need it anymore. I mean we it was there when
we didn't have refrigeration. I understand people the appeal us.
(22:00):
You know, food was spoiling and going bad and potentially
even rotten. And and but we had to eat it.
We have to consume our food. We have to make
sure we can eat. So let's let's mask the bad parts.
Let's let's soften the edges a little bit. But but
we have refrigeration now. It's it's time to move on.
There's it's that we don't need that anymore. I mean,
(22:21):
if you want to smother your food in something, why
don't you smother your food? And MSG, let's focus on delicious.
Stop hiding the truth about the heat. You know, we don't.
We don't with the heat. I mean we don't. We
don't need it. Food is delicious. You don't have to
hide it. And like this notion about oh, it's I
love it, like it makes me start to sweat, and
it's it's I love the endorphins, the endorphin rush. It's great.
(22:44):
Let's see how hot we can go. Let's just keep
pushing it. The more heat we go, the better. It's
like I'm sweating and I'm and I'm I'm it's so
much fun. I feel good. I mean, that's that's ridiculous.
It makes you sweaty and uncomfortable, right, I mean it's
like that's like, let's like people saying I love to
do yoga. That's not fun either. No, no, I'm sorry,
it's not true. It's not fun. It's I mean, you
(23:06):
want to rush, you want to rush ride the cyclone.
You know, I don't need I don't need flaming hot cheetos. Okay,
that's that's how I feel about the endorphined part and
all that. It's no, no, And then then you eat
it and you know you don't feel good, like gastro
intestinal stuff, upset stomach, you can get an ulcer from
too much. Like it's it's, you know, countless visits to
(23:29):
the bathroom after too much hot food. Everybody's like, oh,
what happened? Well, I'm how you doing well? I had
I had a lot of hot food last night. I'm
spending the day, you know, in in the in the restroom.
It's like, no, thanks, if I need a bathroom break,
I'll have a latte. You know, that's that's a nice
way to get to the rest room. I think, you
know it's a perfectly good good way. But but you know,
you had too much hot food. You had too much
(23:49):
hot food. No big deal. Just have some milk, because
nothing's better than a with a bunch of tacos and
some milk, right Like, that's that's a great, that's a great,
That's that's delicious. That's what I want. I want. I
want to wash it all down and like your taste
buds get all blown out, Like you have a bunch
of hot food and you're in like this crazy zone
where if you're still conscious, you're not enjoying yourself. You
(24:10):
can't taste anything else for the next several minutes, like
or longer. It's there's no there's no joy. I want
to taste the food. I want people make delicious food
and I want to taste it. I want to enjoy it.
I don't want to have this sensation where just you're nothing.
It's there's nothing like no, I'm sorry, it's very hot,
(24:30):
it's unpleasant, and just this like and there's all this
sort of like weird shaming associated like, oh, you don't
like hot food. Oh, that's like I'm supposed to be
embarrassed or ashamed of the fact that I that I
like hot don't like hot food. I like to taste
my food. I like to taste things. Here's a fun
fact trivia fact. Okay, the country with the least spiciest
food in the world happens to be math. I'll give
(24:53):
you the answer. It's Denmark. Denmark has the least spiciest
food in the world, and the country with the best
restaurant in the world also from Marked. Do you think
that that's a coincidence. I don't think so. I think
it's science. I'm done, Wiley, do frame with an impassioned
first three minutes plus evolutionary? Like really like like it's
(25:14):
it's a plant's defense system. Are we supposed to be
eating it at all? Do you want to be in
the bathroom all day? Do you enjoy yoga? So many
questions that while he threw out there three minutes, Chris,
now you get to let us know why spicy food rules.
Your three minutes starts now, all right, I am not
(25:34):
here to defend spiciness as sport. I think that Wiley
and I are probably on the same page. That I'm
not out there buying whatever asked blaster sauce. That's going
to just like ruin my life and my butt hole forever.
I think that that is a different thing. I'm not
here to defend the extremists in my camp. I'm here
(25:55):
to just to say that I think spicy food is
remarkable as when in balance, and I think in appreciation
of spicy food not like a crazy devotion to it
as a singular thing, but an appreciation of spice and
spicy food is a sign of open mindedness, a mature palette, adventurousness,
(26:18):
and um just overall decency as a human being. Chili
peppers are the most used spice and condiment in the world.
They have an essential to the world economy and trade.
Empires have been built on this notion of spice. Our
ability to taste spiciness as humans separates us from snails, frogs,
(26:44):
and birds. These are the animals that can't taste spice.
We are I mean, maybe some of us are are
snails and frogs, but I am not a snail or
a frog. I think that spiciness, whether or not you
are perfect like whether or not you're chasing after extreme
spiciness or not. Spiciness is a tool in in the
in the arsenal of somebody making food. You have these,
(27:08):
you have a very limited number, and we really think
about there's a finite number of tastes and sensations that
you can experience that you can bring to a diner.
It's finite. And spice is a big one, especially what
used in conjunction with sweetness or in with numbing with
different temperature variations. Spice is just another tool in your
in your toolbag. Why would you want to get rid
(27:30):
of that? On a very basic scientific level, spiciness increases
your saliva production and stimulates your appetite. It's actually good
for your digestion to be eating spicy food. I think
that spiciness generally in a meal is a side of sophistication.
If you go to a tie banquet, you will see you, yes,
(27:52):
you will have insanely fiery curries. But they are They're
meant to be eaten a little bit with some some
rice and then you take a cooling bite of an
herb over here, and then you eat them a little
bit of like a relish it's it's not it's I agree,
it's too much to have spiciness when it's just everything
is housed in it. But spice practice properly is a
super sophisticated thing. I don't think you wear spiciness as
(28:15):
a badge of honor or anything like that. But let's
also think about Mapo tofu, one of my favorite dishes
in the world, and one of these things that can
get this reputation for being way too spicy, you know,
just blow you out of the water. But when you're
in Chengdu, when you're in Sish want eating this like
balances everything with this dish, and I think that spice
is essential to it. Wow, I almost want to say,
(28:37):
I want to ask Chris, like, isn't it Isn't it
true like scientifically that eating spicy food, especially in warmer
climates can like help regulate your own body temperature to
sort of get through harsh conditions because one of our things,
one of the things that our bodies do to react
to spiciness is it starts sweating from our foreheads in
our chest and like sweat is there to cool you down.
(28:57):
And I know my time is up here, but no,
but I love the idea that it's a plant's defense,
but it also regulates the human body, and maybe those
two arguments sort of have equalled out right there. What
a round? What a first round? I also love Listen.
I don't think either of you really separating yourselves from
the extremists. Wiley is not saying that non spicy food
(29:18):
is bland, not at all. He's saying the country with
the least amount of spicy food has arguably the best restaurants,
right um, And and Chris saying no, he's not with
the extremists that want to just go buy a can
of as blaster, which I don't know if it's a
real thing, but I just wanted to say it myself
because it's fun to say. And I love economy, the world,
(29:38):
global trade, coming into the equation. After one round, I'd
like to see the I'd like to see those facts.
I got some I got some facts of years to
check to my friend. Okay, listen, this this court will,
of course facts check all of the polls that have
been used. This is a court with lots of integrity.
(30:00):
While you may you may approach the bench, no, you
can be heard. I just wanted to point out that
spice is actually not one of the taste that Chris
kept saying over and over again. It is not one
of the taste. It is not bitter, sweet, salty, sour
or mommy spice hot is not in there. That is incorrect. Anecdotally,
this judge would like to take a moment to tell
the court that, you know, a year ago or so,
(30:21):
this job I had COVID. Guys, I had COVID a
year ago, and I was one of these people that
lost my sense of smell, and as a chef, it
was super, super scary, and it was you know, for
for like sixty days at least until it started to
really start coming back. You know that what I did
not lose my sense of taste, which we all know
is barely separated from smell. They work so much together.
(30:44):
But the only thing that I could really enjoy was
super spicy foods. It was the i I'd have to
get even for me, like extra spice, because it was
the only thing that I could register as taste. It's anecdotal.
It's not gonna make away into this judge totally seems
like a fair fight. This totally seems unbiased and totally fair.
This is I feel I feel great. I feel so good.
(31:07):
It will this will be fair, and you know what,
I love, Wiley. One of the from your first three
minutes there the the I don't like spicy food shaming.
I think that is an absolute great point. If you
like certain foods, you like certain foods, if you don't
like only one person on the planet is being shamed
for not like spicy And it's not like he's like
standing up for the community of people like this underserved
(31:30):
community of people who don't like spicy food. It's just him.
Well we'll see how many people comment on that, Chris.
But here we go. Time for the two minute rebuttal. So, Wiley,
you're gonna be up first year. Now you've got two
minutes to let Chris know why spicy food is horrible,
why it's just a horrible thing. And your two minutes starts. Now.
I mean again, I I call into questions some of
(31:54):
Chris's arguments. I don't know. I mean, yes, spice was
the spice trade, the spice out, all of that. One
of the earliest forms of cultural appropriation was bringing spices
around the world. Perhaps, But again, I I just I
think that there are very few people that that have
this so called mastery of which Chris is referring to,
(32:16):
and that the contrary is infinitely more more popular and
and and pervasive. Is this this this idea of just
like that slice of pizza that that we spent three
years trying to figure out how to make for you,
where's that jilly flegs? Like come on, like that's there's no,
there's nothing there, like what stay home? I don't need
you to come into the place like there's I just
(32:39):
I don't. I think that it's the opposite. People are
constantly trying to see how hard they can go. There's
there's Yeah, there are a few people out there maybe
that are just tweaking it and fine tuning it. And
I did say that the cacho pepe puffs at Trader
Joe's are delicious and there smartly balanced. But you know again,
Italian food is is of all the countries that we're
(33:00):
talking about here, Italy is not famous for its laying
on of the hot spicy foods. You know, it's it's
a judicious use of pepper that's softened by a ton
of dairy. But you know, I just I find this
this notion that that it that it it defines you
and your credibility as a chef or somehow to to
not only consume and eat a bunch of stuff, but
(33:21):
like how hot can you make it? Mapo tofu is
always excruciating. It's always excruciating, you know. I mean again,
I've never been to China. I I so I I
know not of what I speak, perhaps because I have
not had had it done by the Mapo Tofu monk himself,
and I look forward to trying it. But I just
think that there's there's I disagree that it's that. There's
(33:46):
what the use of spice is an effort to find balance,
It's not, it's a it's an effort to shock and awe.
All right. I like it the difference there between black
pepper and chili peppers, right, like really saying that this
is not out, you know, just just making things tasty
using pepper like black pepper, but like the overuse perhaps
(34:06):
of chilies, and that it doesn't have to define you.
And also a great note there Wiley on and for
someone who has competed, judged on so many TV shows
or whatever, like it becomes a thing where a competitor
on this on show is just like I have to
have high spice, highest cidity. I have to blow out
the judge's palette because I got fifteen other dishes that
I have to stand out from. And sometimes if someone
(34:28):
who's been in that, it's like, oh, I have to
stand out from the peach drizzled with olive oil. Let
me hit them with some spice and highest cidity. So
good points taken in the rebuttal Chris, you got two
minutes now to let while you know why he's absolutely wrong.
I know you're going to enjoy it. Your two minutes
starts now. I'm gonna I'm gonna be generous and spend
a couple of seconds agreeing that anybody who challenges the
credibility of a chef or whatever because they don't like
(34:50):
a certain taste is crazy, Like Wiley, is proof that
you have strong opinions and preferences and still be one
of the great chefs in the world. I'll grant you that,
but I'm going to reaput a bunch of stuff you
it earlier. First, this idea that chilies don't want to
be eaten because and that's why they're spicy. It's a
protection for the plant being delicious has created has spread
chilies all over the world. Being delicious is what has
(35:14):
ensured their survival and spread to the entire planet. That
is why they were spread, and animals did spread them.
By the way, birds are responsible for spreading most chilies. Second,
you know, you talk about it being a vestige of
the old world five years ago, how we ate blah
blah blah, we have refrigeration. Now I look at it
this way. I think it's a connection to the pre
Columbian America's because the four species of chili we eat today,
(35:39):
all chilies are derived from the same four species. Those
are the four species that Native Americans first cultivated, and
we have not improved on what they did all those
years ago. Next, you're saying, like, nobody likes to feel
sweaty and these endorphins and it's gross and you feel yucky.
Almost everything in life that makes you sweat is good.
Exercise good, being uncomfortable, nervous in a situation good for you, sex,
(36:04):
good for you. All of these things are good things
for eating spicy food food good. You know, whiley said
tacos with milk is a bad, bad idea, that's disgusting.
Tacos without spice also not good, Like you can't eat
them without without spiciness, you can get an ulcer tummy, eg.
From eating too much spice. You can die from eating
too much of anything. That's not a defining characteristic of
(36:26):
chili peppers. And then you wanted to cite the great
Noma and Renee rad Zeppi and Danish food as a
an example of where great food thrives without chili peppers. Wiley,
If you go to Noma today and you walk through
the greenhouse, what is Renee ra Zeppe growing in his
greenhouse a bunch of chili peppers that he brought back
(36:46):
from Mexico, Because that dude loves spice. So if the
greatest chef of the greatest restaurant is cooking with chilis,
I don't know that seems like an argument on my
side more than yours. Wow. Well, the only thing that
this judge will have to make a note is you know,
we're talking about the greatest cheft of his time, and
to me, that's Wiley. So, I mean, I love Renee,
(37:08):
but I mean I'm just gonna get I mean again,
it's not gonna factor into my judgment. But when we're
talking greatest. We're getting into goats. It's true, It's true.
That's wild defra Okay, you guys have given me a
ton to think about. I'll take a quick break and
we'll be right back. All right, We are back, and
(37:33):
I have made up my mind, I think. But before
I give my final verdict, do either of you have
a final word you'd like to say to the court.
This is your last chance to further convince me or
change my mind again. You know, I feel like we
had a pretty good run at w D fifty over
thirteen years, and there was very little use of spice.
(37:56):
It was. There were a lot of things. People criticized
us for a lot, a lot, and at no point
did anyone say I wish the food was spice here,
my drop. I agree with Wiley that the sort of
unjudicious just random housing with chili flakes, housing with hot
sauce onto anything you're eating. How spicy can we make it?
(38:17):
Is not a good practice. But the argument was spicy
food has no place, which I feel like has not
been proven here today. There's you haven't even gotten close
to the idea that spicy food has no place. I mean,
w D fifty had a beautiful and important run with
very little spice. Mexican food has had a longer run
(38:39):
with a lot of spice. Mexico had a better lease.
It's true, it's true, and so far hasn't you know. Alright,
an epic battle here, and I think that this court
has made up its mind. It's a tough one, and
I'll be honest, the verdict is gonna come down here.
It's it's, it's it's it's gonna get pretty technical here.
(39:00):
Some of the great arguments that were made during the debate,
the evolutionary side of it, that plants were protect themselves
to not eat it, and then Christian with a great
response that it propagated plant life because by being so
delicious that it's spread and that's how you get more chilies.
You know, maybe it's not spice. Maybe it's msg as
Wiley said that that's the thing that truly makes food
(39:21):
delicious is spice, even a flavor. Can you blow out
someone's palid and just destroy the flavor of everything with spice?
You can? This one really, really, this one was tough.
Comes down to I think the technicality here, the technicality here,
and the technicality is that spice has no place. This
court disagrees, this court favors spicy food. Well not not
(39:51):
the extremists. This this, this podcast will not be sponsored
by Asked Blaster three thousand anytime soon, nor will we
be having some sort of really spicy cook off for
game to play on the podcast to see if anyone
can eat the one chip challenge or whatever it is.
But I do think that there's there's some merit for
some spice. Wiley, They're right, though, it's it. It has
(40:12):
to be in the hands of a master. I'm certainly
not that person. It's okay, you know, I understand. You know.
For the record, I am still a big fan of
Professor Yang, and I am honored to have had a
dialogue with him about the subject. Yeah, And I mean
we've been Wiley and I we had this conversation, this
(40:33):
argument off the air many times, and and I actually
I do I will say this, I do disagree with
Wiley fundamentally on spicy food. But more than more than
that disagreement, I appreciate that Wiley exists and Wiley has
his opinion and like will not be shamed out of it,
will not bow to the extremists. Wiley you're you're, you're,
(40:56):
you're perhaps defeated but undeterred. Yeah, well, I mean story
that's gonna say that, I'm my gravestone. Thank you very much.
That's that's that's okay. But I do think listen, I mean,
the chemistry amongst the both of you was pretty amazing. Like,
thank you everyone for listening to Food Court. I'm Richard Blaze.
(41:17):
For more Wiley, you can find him on Instagram at
Wiley do Frame and pick up his cookbook w D
fifty the Cookbook for his recipes. I'm holding onto a
signed copy. There's only two copies left, so grandam while
you can, oh go get him, go get the reprints
coming soon, I hope. And for more Chris, you can
catch him on The Recipe Club and the Dave Chang
Show podcast where they're just crushing it and he's written
(41:38):
books like Ivan Romen, The Mission, Chinese Food Cookbook and
You and I Eat the Same sending what do you think?
I know half of you think that I got this wrong.
Maybe well maybe in this case, I think that I
got this wrong. But if you're dying to share your opinion,
don't hold back. Let me know on Twitter and Instagram.
At Richard Blazer on the TikTok at Richard Blaze Official
and find the show on Instagram at food Court Pod
(41:59):
to let us know, food Court is a production of
I Heart Radio. I'm Richard Blaze. My producer is Crystal
Bomahi Food Corp. Was created by Christopher hasciyotas the rest
of my food Court clerks or Jonathan Dressler, David Wasserman,
and Jasmine Blaze. Our theme song is by Jason NI Smith.
For more podcasts for My Heart Radio, visit the I
Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to
your favorite shows. Awesome, Enjoy the rest of you day. Guys,
(42:21):
Bass super fun. Thanks Chris, you're the best.
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