November 7, 2024 • 26 mins
In this episode, former Shekinah Church member Amanda shares her personal journey, beginning with her current emotional state and the reasons for finally sharing her story. She recounts her connection with the church and Robert Shinn, her meeting and marrying her husband there, and the support she expected from the community, as well as her various roles within the church.
The conversation then shifts to pivotal moments, such as her realization of Robert's true nature, her challenging wedding experience, and her husband’s evolving reaction to the accusations against Robert. Finally, we discuss the steps she took to protect herself from manipulation after leaving the church, along with insights on deprogramming, changes in her perspective on faith and community, and advice for those currently in or leaving cult-like situations.
Listener Note: This episode contains discussions of sexual abuse and trauma and may not be suitable for all listeners.
Forgive Me For I Have Followed continues the exploration from Netflix’s hit Dancing for the Devil documentary series by delving deeper into the personal stories of those affected by Robert Shinn, Shekinah Church, and 7M Films. We will focus on the experiences of victims and their families, address urgent questions raised in the documentary, and gather insights from former members and dancers. Our goal is to uncover strategies for combating abuse and ensuring that controlling, cult-like communities are held accountable for their actions.
*The following is based on actual events. Certain composite and representative materials and characters have been used for dramatic purposes.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
My husband grew up Catholic and he was so mad
when we left, just thinking like, this kind of stuff
is why people leave the church, why they don't trust God.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Welcome back to forgive me for I have followed. I'm
Jess Cassavetto, executive producer of the Netflix series Dancing for
the Devil The Seven M TikTok Cult. This documentary series
explored the story of Robert Schin, the La based Chakaina
Church and Seven M Films. Shinn founded Chakaina Church over
two decades ago before establishing Seven M Films and is
named in a civil lawsuit alleging abuse and cult like behavior.
Speaker 3 (00:39):
And I'm Fleiah Gray, former member of Chicaina Church and
Seven M Films.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
In this episode, former Chicaina member Amanda shares her personal journey,
beginning with her current emotional state and the reasons for
coming forward. She recounts her initial connection with the church
and Robert Schin, her meeting and marrying her husband there,
as well as her various roles within the church.
Speaker 3 (01:00):
In our conversation, we talk about pivotal moments such as
her realization of Robert's true nature and her husband's evolving
reaction to the accusations against Robert. Finally, we discussed the
steps that she took to protect herself from manipulation after
leaving the church, along with insights on deprogramming, changes in
her perspective on faith and community, and advice for those
(01:20):
currently in or leaving cult like situations.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
In just a quick note, today's episode tackles sensitive subjects,
including discussions of sexual abuse and trauma. Listener discretion is advised.
Now our conversation with Amanda. Amanda, so happy to have
(01:45):
you a part of this podcast to hear your story.
Speaker 4 (01:49):
Thank you guys for having me.
Speaker 3 (01:51):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
Maybe we just start from the beginning. How did you
first get in contact with Robert and the Shakaina Church.
Speaker 4 (02:01):
So, just to kind of give you a background of me,
I have grown up as a Christian. My parents were Christian,
went to a Christian school, graduated from high school to
private school. So after I graduated, I was at a
movie theater, was taking a friend and we were watching
a movie. We came out of the movie theater and
there was Daniel, you know Daniel and Ryan, who was
(02:24):
someone who was at Chikaina, Robert's nephew. So they're both
around my age at the time, what nineteen or so,
and they came up to us and they kind of said, hey,
like do you have the time, and you know, kind
of played it cool, and then they started sharing about
Jesus and their church. They asked my friend if she
was saved, and they like led her to the Lord
(02:45):
right there in front of me, and I was impressed.
I had never seen anybody my age that looked normal
going out witnessing, and so I really felt like I
was wowed by it. They give flyer and so we
decided to go to the church. At this time, there
was a lot of young people, They're all excited about God.
(03:08):
It was just something I've never witnessed, and so that
was attractive and appealing to me. And I was like
going to my church once a week, then this church
once a week, and then eventually I started going to
this church twice a week and then got invited to
the morning prayer, and that's when my friend kind of
dropped off, But I ended up staying.
Speaker 3 (03:27):
How long were you in Chicina for?
Speaker 4 (03:30):
Basically like two thousand and one to two thousand and eight,
So I was there for seven years and then we
escaped Robert, but we were still kind of under his
sister for a year. So it was like I really
really escaped everything in two thousand and nine, got it?
Speaker 2 (03:46):
What was the morning prayer?
Speaker 3 (03:48):
Like?
Speaker 4 (03:48):
Yes, so the morning prayer you show up at I
don't know, five fifty or something like that. You'd go
and you'd line up, you'd pray, and you would sing
a couple worship songs, like randomly, someone would start a song,
another one would start another song, and then after that.
There was a microphone on the stage and I can't
remember if Catherine would like touch her back to go
(04:10):
up there and pray out loud, but everyone would be
running the whole time. It was an hour every day
Monday through Friday. I never saw Robert up there, but
he would sometimes be like sitting in the chairs in
the back.
Speaker 3 (04:22):
And I know some people were working like full time jobs,
so they would go and do this at five of
the morning and then go off to their job.
Speaker 4 (04:28):
And sometimes after that we would come back go to
church and then go to bed for a little bit
and then come right back the next day.
Speaker 2 (04:35):
So you were doing morning prayer every single.
Speaker 4 (04:38):
Day, yes, four years wow. And then it kind of
shifted like they started doing it separate. I lived in
the girl's home before I got married, but we would
all meet at the park or some people would meet
at Catherine's house.
Speaker 3 (04:52):
Interesting, so how did you and your husband meet?
Speaker 4 (04:55):
So we met there. He worked with Shirley and he
just knows something different about her, and so I guess
she ended up inviting him to come. So one day
at morning prayer he was there. And so the way
they she kinda operated before is they would have somebody
from the church get a good job, and then they
would have that person bring in church members to work.
(05:18):
So we ended up working at the same place, and
we would have to carpool together from morning prayer to
like drive together to church. Nobody was supposed to know
we were coming together, so I had to lay down
like in the car so no one can so no
one could tell we were together. So that's kind of
how we got to know each other. We ended up
just kind of naturally falling in love when we wouldn't
(05:40):
have the opportunity otherwise because they don't allow you to
be alone with guys or anything. There was no dating allowed.
Speaker 2 (05:47):
So if you weren't allowed to date in the church,
when did you get the blessing? Or permission to be
able to date your husband.
Speaker 4 (05:56):
My husband talked to Robert and said, hey, you know,
I'm interested in her. And I remember a Robert on
a Wednesday announcing from the pulpit, Okay, you guys are
allowed to date. So I was like, okay, and then
we had to go in like a chaperone date and peace,
and Hannah was our chaperone, and we didn't date for
very long. We wanted to get married as soon as possible.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
You also mentioned something, just to go back for a second,
that there was the women's group. You lived in the
women's house. What was that?
Speaker 4 (06:26):
That was where certain girls from the house would live.
They live together. The way things worked was like if
you wanted to grow and you get closer to God,
no one ever told you like you have to live there,
but the environment allowed itself to be like, Okay, I'm
watching this person live in this house. This person's live
in this house. They're giving up themselves and they're denying themselves.
(06:48):
They're doing this, So that's what I want to do.
So I remember at nineteen, I told my parents, Okay,
I'm moving out. I'm gonna go live with the church
or live with the ladies. But I remember I lived
with maybe five and Lamorada and that was back in
two thousand and one, two thousand and two, and I
remember being charged to share a room like twelve hundred
dollars or something. But back then that was a lot.
(07:11):
And I remember being told like, if you question that
that's a lot, you're being greedy. And you know, you
pretty much don't have a lot of time to be there.
You're not home a lot, You're there to sleep and
there's like mandatory chores. But yeah, I lived there that
was called the Mighty Girl House, and then I lived
on another one which is called the Glory Girl House.
(07:32):
At the time, it was fine, but I look back
and it's just ridiculous because of the whole system that
they had of like telling on each other or reporting
on each other. It just it wasn't very comfortable. I
remember one time our house captain literally sat me down
and was like, how many like things of tissue are
you using when you use the restroom? No show me
like how many? And I'm like, really, it's insane to
(07:55):
think how like little Robert wanted us to live off
of and Catherine.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
You know, so then when you and your husband got married.
Did you end up leaving the house that you were
living in with the women and did you guys get
to live together or were you still separated.
Speaker 4 (08:11):
Yes, we did live together, but it was very hard
because at that time we had to email Robert every
week what we've read and kind of like tell on
each other. So I will report on my husband and
he will report on me. And so even though we
are married, living together was not how it's meant to be.
Speaker 3 (08:32):
Oh yeah, that was something that my husband, Kevin, had
a big issue with because they'd always tell us like,
you should be closer to your mentor than your spouse.
So I understand when you say, like that dynamic is
not how it's supposed to be because now there's other
people in your marriage. It's like you're not getting to
build that relationship with each other that you need to
build to have a strong foundation of marriage. So you
(08:53):
said you were around during the flowers shop. Did you
work in the flower shop or what other roles did
you have in shood kinda?
Speaker 4 (09:00):
No, I never did work in the flower shop. I
did work for a couple of the companies that the
church member there would work at, So I was doing
that and then there was a season where they started
getting to real estate. I remember Robert came up to
me and literally said, you're going to be a real
estate agent. So I was like, all right. I studied
and their first real estate company. I was a part
(09:23):
of that seventh Millennium Realty seven M Realty. Oh wow,
I have business cards to show you. It's the same logo.
Speaker 1 (09:30):
Oh my god.
Speaker 3 (09:31):
Yeah, it's the same logo.
Speaker 4 (09:33):
I mean, the seventh with the M.
Speaker 3 (09:35):
Yeah. I did not know that. So he's had this
name for a while, the seven M concept. Yes, Oh
my goodness. After the break, we continue our conversation with Amanda.
This is forgive me for I have followed. We'll be
right back.
Speaker 2 (09:55):
Welcome back to forgive me for I have followed. Now
back to our conversation with Amanda.
Speaker 3 (10:02):
So at what point did you realize that Robert wasn't
what you thought he was.
Speaker 4 (10:08):
I was working at the real estate office, got a
call from Robert, Hey, tell me don't listen to anything
Catherine has to say. And I was like, okay, because
you know, you're just at the point where you just
obey everything he says. He's like God, so you're like okay.
So then that night I went to Chrissy you.
Speaker 3 (10:23):
Know, yes, I know Chrissy.
Speaker 4 (10:25):
Yeah, she was living with the girls and I was
hanging out and then I got a call from somebody
who they said, come out, bring your person, come out,
and so I went out, got in the car. They
drove us to Catherine's house and I didn't know what
was going on, but in my mind I was thinking,
I know something's going on with Catherine. But Robert said
to not listen, so I'll just be like a spy.
(10:47):
So I headed up to Catherine's house. They had pan
picked about half the church, and one of the girls
who was there basically said, hey, like Robert has been
doing inappropriate things, touching girls and massaging. Has that ever
happened to you? And I said yes. And I think
it was at that moment that I realized that the
(11:08):
stuff that I went through it was like not okay.
And it's the first time that I've talked to somebody
else about it. And it was a crazy moment because
that had been like seven years of believing something was okay.
And you're always kind of like any feeling you have
that's like this isn't right, you kind of get taught
that that's just your flesh and you got to like
(11:28):
deny it, you got to push it down.
Speaker 3 (11:30):
Did you get to confront him?
Speaker 4 (11:32):
It's kind of honestly a blur, but basically we did
do that. We went in Catherine mainly talked and he
was very calm, like he was not putting up a fight,
he was not denying anything. He just was very calm.
He kept so, if you want to leave, go ahead,
and if you want to stay, stay, And so it
was at that point where I left and my husband
stayed because he was brainwashed too, you know, and things
(11:56):
hadn't happened to him like they did me, and so
I think it just took like a little bit longer
for him to like process everything. And I remember after
leaving and then we came to like later that evening.
I was talking to him and I wanted to like
slap him, like do you know what he did to me?
Like do you know? And he told me that Robert
(12:16):
like whispered into his ear and was saying that I
was lying. And it took a couple of days but
he came to. But I mean, the brainwashing is real,
and it's different for guys.
Speaker 2 (12:26):
Yeah, thank you so much for sharing that, Amanda. I
know that that was a really difficult time, But do
you mind if I ask how long you were experiencing
that type of abuse from Robert before you had the
opportunity to have that discussion with other women? How long
were you holding that?
Speaker 4 (12:45):
Thankfully, it wasn't long at all. That was very close
to towards the end that that happened, and for me,
it happened once. Basically, he asked me to massage him,
and I thought it was a privilege that I can
go and massage the pastor because he was sore from
playing racquetball all the time. When I got there, there
(13:05):
was another church member girl there. He had us put
blindfolds on and when I went to massage him, he
was completely nude, but we had blindfolds on so I
couldn't see her. I was not comfortable. My heart was racing.
Robert felt my heart racing, and still like did that
And for me, nothing else transpired after that, but he
(13:29):
did ask me to massage that area, and I was
so like naive or innocent to think that, like, oh,
how could that be sore? That area? You know? And
so I was told not to talk about it with
the person that I massaged him with, and I didn't
even talk to my husband about it really. After that
he would call the office and say, hey, are you busy,
(13:49):
you know Friday night, you know, come massage me? And
I just lied. I said, oh no, I have appointments
and stuff like that. So I just didn't. Thank God,
but for me only happened once.
Speaker 2 (14:02):
Oh I'm so sorry. If at any point you're uncomfortable,
please like stop me from asking certain questions, just because
obviously this is a very sensitive subject. But would he
be the one to call people in or how did
that happen?
Speaker 4 (14:20):
Probably that makes sense because when I went, Catherine knew
I was going to massage, and I remember I told
my husband I said, hey, I'm going to massage with
the pastor because in my mind it's like it's good.
But I remember getting rebuked by Catherine and saying like
why would you ever say that? And like why would
you tell them his address? Or like why would you
ever put the man of God in danger or whatever?
Speaker 2 (14:43):
Because in your mind you thought you were actually just
giving him a back massage, So you're like, what's the problem. Yes,
so you didn't realize what the extent of the massage
was until you were there.
Speaker 4 (14:53):
Oh one hundred percent. Yeah, And I remember he wanted
me to like take off my bra, put this shirt on,
this like T shirt on, and I was just like
in my mind thinking, no, I don't need to change
my brawl, like I'm good, you know, like I'm just
gonna massage, Like what do you know? So still wasn't
registering to me. Yeah, he would just like groom us
(15:16):
to kind of think like, oh, I was a doctor,
so you have to be able to like be able
to touch people and not have like a sexual feeling
or whatever. I remember like he would tell us that,
and he actually did like touch me my chest because
he in him telling me that he did that, and
it was, yeah, disgusting think about it now, but it's
(15:38):
like that's how he groomed us, and he made us
feel like, oh yeah, so he probably made the other
girls feel like, yeah, it's just a massage, you're touching
this area, but it's like a doctor. But that's what
he would tell us. But yeah, I'm so sorry.
Speaker 3 (15:52):
And I even remember him saying things like that on
the pulpit when we were there, and so like now,
in hindsight, looking back, it's like, these are the seeds
that he was dropping to like repeat cycles that he's
done before, which is really scary. And I'm like, I'm
just thinking about the people that I know that are
(16:13):
still involved and still around, and I'm like, like, it's
it's reminding me why we are doing this, like this
podcast in this first place and putting that information out there.
So like hopefully at least some of the same tactics
that he's using he can't use anymore because they're being
exposed and being told and people are a little more aware.
So that line of like, well, i'm a doctor, It's okay,
(16:35):
I'm a doctor, because he said that, like oh yeah,
like i'm a doctor. You have to see naked bodies
all the time. Like that's like his ankle and like
I remember him being on the pulpit talking about that.
I don't remember what the context was, but I'm like
he was just dropping seeds.
Speaker 4 (16:48):
Mm hmm, making you feel like he's your father figure,
like it's fine. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:53):
Even in the documentary, there's a sermon that was played
that he says that he's like ooh ba, good bodies,
big deal, Like he's just so casually talking about it,
like I'm a doctor who cares, and so again I echo, Amanda,
just your strength for coming forward. I think anyone that's
ever experienced something like that, it's not an easy conversation
(17:17):
to have. Is there anything that we haven't shared that
you're like, man, they should be talking more about this
or this person.
Speaker 4 (17:26):
I think what I want to share it is just
like you have to separate Robert from like actual Christianity.
A lot of times people will leave the situation and
they'll be so angry at what happened to them and God.
But that's kind of like something that my husband and
I had to realize is like people will fail you
(17:47):
all the time. Sorry, but God, God will not fail you.
And there is a process that you go through. You
have to learn to rest again. You know, it's hard
because like my husband grew up Catholic and he was
so mad.
Speaker 1 (18:07):
When we left, just thinking like this kind of stuff
is why people leave the church, why they don't trust God.
You know, the whole deprogramming that you're gonna go through
after is you really need to read the Bible for yourself.
That's why we were deceived because we didn't know what
it said and so when somebody came to you with
(18:27):
a little bit of truth and other his own weird ideas,
it's easy to get deceive. But what we took out
of it was we're never ever gonna put someone on
a pedestal and treat them like God. You know, he's
a wolf in sheep's clothing, you know. And it's actually
a lot more common than I thought. Prior to everything
(18:48):
blowing up with him, I just thought it was kind
of like a lost cause, and I didn't talk a
lot about it to people. But once it started getting
out in the open, we started talking. I started sharing
with people, and actually a lot of people based said, oh,
I've been through something similar, Like I was at a
church and this was kind of happening. Maybe it wasn't
to the extent that she kind of did it, but
it is happening. And it's also you don't even have
(19:10):
to be in a church. Like I have a friend
who just came out of a relationship with a friend
that was like totally manipulating her. And because what we've
been through, because of those signs I was seeing, it
kind of helped her like say, hey, look like this
is happening, and so this is a thing.
Speaker 2 (19:27):
So common, which is really unfortunate, and it's masked in
all different ways in relationships. And if people can find
those similarities and start to piece those things together and
implement them into their own lives, I mean it's worth something.
When we returned the conclusion to our conversation with Amanda,
this is forgive me for I have followed.
Speaker 3 (19:53):
Welcome back to forgive me for I have followed. Here's
the conclusion of our conversation with Amanda.
Speaker 2 (19:59):
Before we wrap things up by I do want to
just go back to one thing that you mentioned that
I'm just curious about. You said that when you and
your husband left the church that you for about a
year were under Catherine. What was that transition like or
what was it really?
Speaker 3 (20:17):
So?
Speaker 4 (20:17):
I think what happened was Catherine lived off of all
of our paychecks, right, Catherine and Robert. That's how they lived.
They didn't make any money other than like us giving
them our money. A lot of us were real estate
agents for seven ms. So we left. But then we
had a meeting and we're like, well, let's start a
new real estate company. It was kind of like the
(20:40):
same thing that we're doing. And she kind of maybe
with a little more freedom, but she still held our checkbooks.
Like I would be doing real estate, but I would
not get any commission. I would get like a check
every two weeks. So I guess we just didn't realize
at the time that we were still kind of being
taken advantage of. And two of my friends, two of
the girls who were there at the two branched off.
(21:01):
I guess they kind of realized it, and they said
this is not right, like we need to leave Catherine,
And one of the girls basically threatened Catherine and said, like,
I know too much, So if you don't let everybody go,
I'm gonna tell on you. So I don't know if
it was like this, Khalia when you were there, But
our names weren't attached to the stuff we had, and
(21:22):
so we all didn't really own a car or anything
because we were, you know, driving other people's stuff. And
so I remember, I'm really grateful for these two girls
who told Catherine to do that. So if we had
any debt, they said, you need to pay off their
debt because we weren't making the debt anyways. They were
in charge of our finances, so they had to pay
off our debt. And give everyone a car when we left,
(21:42):
and so Catherine did it, and I remember we're in
her house and she was like saying goodbye, crying, and
her daughters didn't understand why it was such a big
deal for her that we were all leaving. They're kind
of thinking, why, why do you need them, And then
one of the daughters realized, it's because we are her livelihood.
This is how she is living, thriving. Catherine would get
(22:04):
like the best make up, the best clothes, the best car,
and her kids everyone would get like the best. And
we were living off of nothing, which we didn't mind
doing because I really thought that the money that we
were geting was going to like missions or something, and
then realizing later that, oh my gosh, they were just
using it for themselves, like living their life. And I
see Robert renting huge, multi million dollar places. It's insane.
(22:28):
So that was it. We all just went our separate
ways and didn't look back.
Speaker 3 (22:34):
I'm so proud of you guys for being able to
stand up and stand your ground and make those demands
and get those demands met, because it's like the least
she could do after all of the years and years
of abuse and yeah, whatever she did know or allowed
to happen.
Speaker 4 (22:49):
Yeah, thanks, It wasn't me. It was that it was
one of the girls who were there, two of them, Like,
it wasn't me. Like I didn't. I didn't have the
wherewithal our understanding to like say that at the time.
So I'm really grateful because, you know, at least we
had something when we left, we had.
Speaker 3 (23:05):
I do have one last question. Is there anything that
you would want to say to the people that are
still in that you know, that are still under Robert.
I don't know.
Speaker 4 (23:15):
I just apologize, like especially to Chrissy, that's my friend
from high school. I brought Chrissy to Chakaina. I wish
that day that somebody had called me like, hey, come
out and let's go to Catherine that night. I wish
I would have grabbed Chrissy, like, but I didn't. I
don't know. That's a regret that I have that I
didn't try harder to get people out that night. I
(23:38):
did talk to Christy, we did meet back in twenty
seventeen or something like that, but she wasn't listening. Yeah,
and so I guess I could say, Hey, I'm here
and we're here to talk to you and to walk
you through this. There's life outside of Chicaina, And I mean,
it definitely feels like you come out of jail, to
be honest, because you're so you to just following orders
(24:01):
and not making decisions on your own. I remember when
I came out, like the actual sunlight would like hurt
my eyes because I was so used to like just
working in the office. But I will say, like when
I was there, before I knew something was wrong, I
was living my best life. And I just wonder if
they might be okay right now because they don't know
all the bad stuff And it really is until that
(24:23):
your eyes are open that it hits you, and that's
when it's going to be hard for them. Maybe say
things to them like is he hurting you? Is he
touching you inappropriately? Is he getting in between you or
husband and you? Is he asking you to do things
you're not comfortable with? Like those kind of questions. That's
the kind of thing that woke me up.
Speaker 2 (24:51):
We'd like to thank Amanda for this truly enlightening conversation.
Her journey of resilience and discovery sheds light on the
complexities of faith and community, as well as the challenges
of navigating manipulative environments.
Speaker 3 (25:03):
We hope her insights on deprogramming and protecting oneself resonate
with those who might be facing similar situations. We truly
wish her and her family the very best on their
healing journey.
Speaker 2 (25:13):
If you found this conversation valuable, please subscribe, rate, and
leave a review. Your support helps reach more listeners and
share these important stories.
Speaker 3 (25:22):
This has been Forgive Me For I Have Followed. We'll
be back next week. Forgive Me For I Have Followed
is a production from wv Sound, Dirty Robert and iHeartMedia's
Michael Tore podcast Network, hosted by me, Kalia Gray, he
Me Jess Cassavetto. Forgive Me For I Have Followed is
produced by Aaron Burlson and Sophie Spencer Zabos.
Speaker 2 (25:41):
Our executive producers are Kalia Gray, myself, Wilmar Balderama, Leo Klem,
and Aaron Burlison at wv Sound.
Speaker 3 (25:48):
This episode was edited by Sean Tracy and features original
music by Madison Davenport and Halo Boy. For more podcasts
from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever
you listen to your favorite shows.
Speaker 2 (26:00):
See you next week, See you next week.
My husband grew up Catholic and he was so mad
when we left, just thinking like, this kind of stuff
is why people leave the church, why they don't trust God.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Welcome back to forgive me for I have followed. I'm
Jess Cassavetto, executive producer of the Netflix series Dancing for
the Devil The Seven M TikTok Cult. This documentary series
explored the story of Robert Schin, the La based Chakaina
Church and Seven M Films. Shinn founded Chakaina Church over
two decades ago before establishing Seven M Films and is
named in a civil lawsuit alleging abuse and cult like behavior.
Speaker 3 (00:39):
And I'm Fleiah Gray, former member of Chicaina Church and
Seven M Films.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
In this episode, former Chicaina member Amanda shares her personal journey,
beginning with her current emotional state and the reasons for
coming forward. She recounts her initial connection with the church
and Robert Schin, her meeting and marrying her husband there,
as well as her various roles within the church.
Speaker 3 (01:00):
In our conversation, we talk about pivotal moments such as
her realization of Robert's true nature and her husband's evolving
reaction to the accusations against Robert. Finally, we discussed the
steps that she took to protect herself from manipulation after
leaving the church, along with insights on deprogramming, changes in
her perspective on faith and community, and advice for those
(01:20):
currently in or leaving cult like situations.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
In just a quick note, today's episode tackles sensitive subjects,
including discussions of sexual abuse and trauma. Listener discretion is advised.
Now our conversation with Amanda. Amanda, so happy to have
(01:45):
you a part of this podcast to hear your story.
Speaker 4 (01:49):
Thank you guys for having me.
Speaker 3 (01:51):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
Maybe we just start from the beginning. How did you
first get in contact with Robert and the Shakaina Church.
Speaker 4 (02:01):
So, just to kind of give you a background of me,
I have grown up as a Christian. My parents were Christian,
went to a Christian school, graduated from high school to
private school. So after I graduated, I was at a
movie theater, was taking a friend and we were watching
a movie. We came out of the movie theater and
there was Daniel, you know Daniel and Ryan, who was
(02:24):
someone who was at Chikaina, Robert's nephew. So they're both
around my age at the time, what nineteen or so,
and they came up to us and they kind of said, hey,
like do you have the time, and you know, kind
of played it cool, and then they started sharing about
Jesus and their church. They asked my friend if she
was saved, and they like led her to the Lord
(02:45):
right there in front of me, and I was impressed.
I had never seen anybody my age that looked normal
going out witnessing, and so I really felt like I
was wowed by it. They give flyer and so we
decided to go to the church. At this time, there
was a lot of young people, They're all excited about God.
(03:08):
It was just something I've never witnessed, and so that
was attractive and appealing to me. And I was like
going to my church once a week, then this church
once a week, and then eventually I started going to
this church twice a week and then got invited to
the morning prayer, and that's when my friend kind of
dropped off, But I ended up staying.
Speaker 3 (03:27):
How long were you in Chicina for?
Speaker 4 (03:30):
Basically like two thousand and one to two thousand and eight,
So I was there for seven years and then we
escaped Robert, but we were still kind of under his
sister for a year. So it was like I really
really escaped everything in two thousand and nine, got it?
Speaker 2 (03:46):
What was the morning prayer?
Speaker 3 (03:48):
Like?
Speaker 4 (03:48):
Yes, so the morning prayer you show up at I
don't know, five fifty or something like that. You'd go
and you'd line up, you'd pray, and you would sing
a couple worship songs, like randomly, someone would start a song,
another one would start another song, and then after that.
There was a microphone on the stage and I can't
remember if Catherine would like touch her back to go
(04:10):
up there and pray out loud, but everyone would be
running the whole time. It was an hour every day
Monday through Friday. I never saw Robert up there, but
he would sometimes be like sitting in the chairs in
the back.
Speaker 3 (04:22):
And I know some people were working like full time jobs,
so they would go and do this at five of
the morning and then go off to their job.
Speaker 4 (04:28):
And sometimes after that we would come back go to
church and then go to bed for a little bit
and then come right back the next day.
Speaker 2 (04:35):
So you were doing morning prayer every single.
Speaker 4 (04:38):
Day, yes, four years wow. And then it kind of
shifted like they started doing it separate. I lived in
the girl's home before I got married, but we would
all meet at the park or some people would meet
at Catherine's house.
Speaker 3 (04:52):
Interesting, so how did you and your husband meet?
Speaker 4 (04:55):
So we met there. He worked with Shirley and he
just knows something different about her, and so I guess
she ended up inviting him to come. So one day
at morning prayer he was there. And so the way
they she kinda operated before is they would have somebody
from the church get a good job, and then they
would have that person bring in church members to work.
(05:18):
So we ended up working at the same place, and
we would have to carpool together from morning prayer to
like drive together to church. Nobody was supposed to know
we were coming together, so I had to lay down
like in the car so no one can so no
one could tell we were together. So that's kind of
how we got to know each other. We ended up
just kind of naturally falling in love when we wouldn't
(05:40):
have the opportunity otherwise because they don't allow you to
be alone with guys or anything. There was no dating allowed.
Speaker 2 (05:47):
So if you weren't allowed to date in the church,
when did you get the blessing? Or permission to be
able to date your husband.
Speaker 4 (05:56):
My husband talked to Robert and said, hey, you know,
I'm interested in her. And I remember a Robert on
a Wednesday announcing from the pulpit, Okay, you guys are
allowed to date. So I was like, okay, and then
we had to go in like a chaperone date and peace,
and Hannah was our chaperone, and we didn't date for
very long. We wanted to get married as soon as possible.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
You also mentioned something, just to go back for a second,
that there was the women's group. You lived in the
women's house. What was that?
Speaker 4 (06:26):
That was where certain girls from the house would live.
They live together. The way things worked was like if
you wanted to grow and you get closer to God,
no one ever told you like you have to live there,
but the environment allowed itself to be like, Okay, I'm
watching this person live in this house. This person's live
in this house. They're giving up themselves and they're denying themselves.
(06:48):
They're doing this, So that's what I want to do.
So I remember at nineteen, I told my parents, Okay,
I'm moving out. I'm gonna go live with the church
or live with the ladies. But I remember I lived
with maybe five and Lamorada and that was back in
two thousand and one, two thousand and two, and I
remember being charged to share a room like twelve hundred
dollars or something. But back then that was a lot.
(07:11):
And I remember being told like, if you question that
that's a lot, you're being greedy. And you know, you
pretty much don't have a lot of time to be there.
You're not home a lot, You're there to sleep and
there's like mandatory chores. But yeah, I lived there that
was called the Mighty Girl House, and then I lived
on another one which is called the Glory Girl House.
(07:32):
At the time, it was fine, but I look back
and it's just ridiculous because of the whole system that
they had of like telling on each other or reporting
on each other. It just it wasn't very comfortable. I
remember one time our house captain literally sat me down
and was like, how many like things of tissue are
you using when you use the restroom? No show me
like how many? And I'm like, really, it's insane to
(07:55):
think how like little Robert wanted us to live off
of and Catherine.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
You know, so then when you and your husband got married.
Did you end up leaving the house that you were
living in with the women and did you guys get
to live together or were you still separated.
Speaker 4 (08:11):
Yes, we did live together, but it was very hard
because at that time we had to email Robert every
week what we've read and kind of like tell on
each other. So I will report on my husband and
he will report on me. And so even though we
are married, living together was not how it's meant to be.
Speaker 3 (08:32):
Oh yeah, that was something that my husband, Kevin, had
a big issue with because they'd always tell us like,
you should be closer to your mentor than your spouse.
So I understand when you say, like that dynamic is
not how it's supposed to be because now there's other
people in your marriage. It's like you're not getting to
build that relationship with each other that you need to
build to have a strong foundation of marriage. So you
(08:53):
said you were around during the flowers shop. Did you
work in the flower shop or what other roles did
you have in shood kinda?
Speaker 4 (09:00):
No, I never did work in the flower shop. I
did work for a couple of the companies that the
church member there would work at, So I was doing
that and then there was a season where they started
getting to real estate. I remember Robert came up to
me and literally said, you're going to be a real
estate agent. So I was like, all right. I studied
and their first real estate company. I was a part
(09:23):
of that seventh Millennium Realty seven M Realty. Oh wow,
I have business cards to show you. It's the same logo.
Speaker 1 (09:30):
Oh my god.
Speaker 3 (09:31):
Yeah, it's the same logo.
Speaker 4 (09:33):
I mean, the seventh with the M.
Speaker 3 (09:35):
Yeah. I did not know that. So he's had this
name for a while, the seven M concept. Yes, Oh
my goodness. After the break, we continue our conversation with Amanda.
This is forgive me for I have followed. We'll be
right back.
Speaker 2 (09:55):
Welcome back to forgive me for I have followed. Now
back to our conversation with Amanda.
Speaker 3 (10:02):
So at what point did you realize that Robert wasn't
what you thought he was.
Speaker 4 (10:08):
I was working at the real estate office, got a
call from Robert, Hey, tell me don't listen to anything
Catherine has to say. And I was like, okay, because
you know, you're just at the point where you just
obey everything he says. He's like God, so you're like okay.
So then that night I went to Chrissy you.
Speaker 3 (10:23):
Know, yes, I know Chrissy.
Speaker 4 (10:25):
Yeah, she was living with the girls and I was
hanging out and then I got a call from somebody
who they said, come out, bring your person, come out,
and so I went out, got in the car. They
drove us to Catherine's house and I didn't know what
was going on, but in my mind I was thinking,
I know something's going on with Catherine. But Robert said
to not listen, so I'll just be like a spy.
(10:47):
So I headed up to Catherine's house. They had pan
picked about half the church, and one of the girls
who was there basically said, hey, like Robert has been
doing inappropriate things, touching girls and massaging. Has that ever
happened to you? And I said yes. And I think
it was at that moment that I realized that the
(11:08):
stuff that I went through it was like not okay.
And it's the first time that I've talked to somebody
else about it. And it was a crazy moment because
that had been like seven years of believing something was okay.
And you're always kind of like any feeling you have
that's like this isn't right, you kind of get taught
that that's just your flesh and you got to like
(11:28):
deny it, you got to push it down.
Speaker 3 (11:30):
Did you get to confront him?
Speaker 4 (11:32):
It's kind of honestly a blur, but basically we did
do that. We went in Catherine mainly talked and he
was very calm, like he was not putting up a fight,
he was not denying anything. He just was very calm.
He kept so, if you want to leave, go ahead,
and if you want to stay, stay, And so it
was at that point where I left and my husband
stayed because he was brainwashed too, you know, and things
(11:56):
hadn't happened to him like they did me, and so
I think it just took like a little bit longer
for him to like process everything. And I remember after
leaving and then we came to like later that evening.
I was talking to him and I wanted to like
slap him, like do you know what he did to me?
Like do you know? And he told me that Robert
(12:16):
like whispered into his ear and was saying that I
was lying. And it took a couple of days but
he came to. But I mean, the brainwashing is real,
and it's different for guys.
Speaker 2 (12:26):
Yeah, thank you so much for sharing that, Amanda. I
know that that was a really difficult time, But do
you mind if I ask how long you were experiencing
that type of abuse from Robert before you had the
opportunity to have that discussion with other women? How long
were you holding that?
Speaker 4 (12:45):
Thankfully, it wasn't long at all. That was very close
to towards the end that that happened, and for me,
it happened once. Basically, he asked me to massage him,
and I thought it was a privilege that I can
go and massage the pastor because he was sore from
playing racquetball all the time. When I got there, there
(13:05):
was another church member girl there. He had us put
blindfolds on and when I went to massage him, he
was completely nude, but we had blindfolds on so I
couldn't see her. I was not comfortable. My heart was racing.
Robert felt my heart racing, and still like did that
And for me, nothing else transpired after that, but he
(13:29):
did ask me to massage that area, and I was
so like naive or innocent to think that, like, oh,
how could that be sore? That area? You know? And
so I was told not to talk about it with
the person that I massaged him with, and I didn't
even talk to my husband about it really. After that
he would call the office and say, hey, are you busy,
(13:49):
you know Friday night, you know, come massage me? And
I just lied. I said, oh no, I have appointments
and stuff like that. So I just didn't. Thank God,
but for me only happened once.
Speaker 2 (14:02):
Oh I'm so sorry. If at any point you're uncomfortable,
please like stop me from asking certain questions, just because
obviously this is a very sensitive subject. But would he
be the one to call people in or how did
that happen?
Speaker 4 (14:20):
Probably that makes sense because when I went, Catherine knew
I was going to massage, and I remember I told
my husband I said, hey, I'm going to massage with
the pastor because in my mind it's like it's good.
But I remember getting rebuked by Catherine and saying like
why would you ever say that? And like why would
you tell them his address? Or like why would you
ever put the man of God in danger or whatever?
Speaker 2 (14:43):
Because in your mind you thought you were actually just
giving him a back massage, So you're like, what's the problem. Yes,
so you didn't realize what the extent of the massage
was until you were there.
Speaker 4 (14:53):
Oh one hundred percent. Yeah, And I remember he wanted
me to like take off my bra, put this shirt on,
this like T shirt on, and I was just like
in my mind thinking, no, I don't need to change
my brawl, like I'm good, you know, like I'm just
gonna massage, Like what do you know? So still wasn't
registering to me. Yeah, he would just like groom us
(15:16):
to kind of think like, oh, I was a doctor,
so you have to be able to like be able
to touch people and not have like a sexual feeling
or whatever. I remember like he would tell us that,
and he actually did like touch me my chest because
he in him telling me that he did that, and
it was, yeah, disgusting think about it now, but it's
(15:38):
like that's how he groomed us, and he made us
feel like, oh yeah, so he probably made the other
girls feel like, yeah, it's just a massage, you're touching
this area, but it's like a doctor. But that's what
he would tell us. But yeah, I'm so sorry.
Speaker 3 (15:52):
And I even remember him saying things like that on
the pulpit when we were there, and so like now,
in hindsight, looking back, it's like, these are the seeds
that he was dropping to like repeat cycles that he's
done before, which is really scary. And I'm like, I'm
just thinking about the people that I know that are
(16:13):
still involved and still around, and I'm like, like, it's
it's reminding me why we are doing this, like this
podcast in this first place and putting that information out there.
So like hopefully at least some of the same tactics
that he's using he can't use anymore because they're being
exposed and being told and people are a little more aware.
So that line of like, well, i'm a doctor, It's okay,
(16:35):
I'm a doctor, because he said that, like oh yeah,
like i'm a doctor. You have to see naked bodies
all the time. Like that's like his ankle and like
I remember him being on the pulpit talking about that.
I don't remember what the context was, but I'm like
he was just dropping seeds.
Speaker 4 (16:48):
Mm hmm, making you feel like he's your father figure,
like it's fine. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:53):
Even in the documentary, there's a sermon that was played
that he says that he's like ooh ba, good bodies,
big deal, Like he's just so casually talking about it,
like I'm a doctor who cares, and so again I echo, Amanda,
just your strength for coming forward. I think anyone that's
ever experienced something like that, it's not an easy conversation
(17:17):
to have. Is there anything that we haven't shared that
you're like, man, they should be talking more about this
or this person.
Speaker 4 (17:26):
I think what I want to share it is just
like you have to separate Robert from like actual Christianity.
A lot of times people will leave the situation and
they'll be so angry at what happened to them and God.
But that's kind of like something that my husband and
I had to realize is like people will fail you
(17:47):
all the time. Sorry, but God, God will not fail you.
And there is a process that you go through. You
have to learn to rest again. You know, it's hard
because like my husband grew up Catholic and he was
so mad.
Speaker 1 (18:07):
When we left, just thinking like this kind of stuff
is why people leave the church, why they don't trust God.
You know, the whole deprogramming that you're gonna go through
after is you really need to read the Bible for yourself.
That's why we were deceived because we didn't know what
it said and so when somebody came to you with
(18:27):
a little bit of truth and other his own weird ideas,
it's easy to get deceive. But what we took out
of it was we're never ever gonna put someone on
a pedestal and treat them like God. You know, he's
a wolf in sheep's clothing, you know. And it's actually
a lot more common than I thought. Prior to everything
(18:48):
blowing up with him, I just thought it was kind
of like a lost cause, and I didn't talk a
lot about it to people. But once it started getting
out in the open, we started talking. I started sharing
with people, and actually a lot of people based said, oh,
I've been through something similar, Like I was at a
church and this was kind of happening. Maybe it wasn't
to the extent that she kind of did it, but
it is happening. And it's also you don't even have
(19:10):
to be in a church. Like I have a friend
who just came out of a relationship with a friend
that was like totally manipulating her. And because what we've
been through, because of those signs I was seeing, it
kind of helped her like say, hey, look like this
is happening, and so this is a thing.
Speaker 2 (19:27):
So common, which is really unfortunate, and it's masked in
all different ways in relationships. And if people can find
those similarities and start to piece those things together and
implement them into their own lives, I mean it's worth something.
When we returned the conclusion to our conversation with Amanda,
this is forgive me for I have followed.
Speaker 3 (19:53):
Welcome back to forgive me for I have followed. Here's
the conclusion of our conversation with Amanda.
Speaker 2 (19:59):
Before we wrap things up by I do want to
just go back to one thing that you mentioned that
I'm just curious about. You said that when you and
your husband left the church that you for about a
year were under Catherine. What was that transition like or
what was it really?
Speaker 3 (20:17):
So?
Speaker 4 (20:17):
I think what happened was Catherine lived off of all
of our paychecks, right, Catherine and Robert. That's how they lived.
They didn't make any money other than like us giving
them our money. A lot of us were real estate
agents for seven ms. So we left. But then we
had a meeting and we're like, well, let's start a
new real estate company. It was kind of like the
(20:40):
same thing that we're doing. And she kind of maybe
with a little more freedom, but she still held our checkbooks.
Like I would be doing real estate, but I would
not get any commission. I would get like a check
every two weeks. So I guess we just didn't realize
at the time that we were still kind of being
taken advantage of. And two of my friends, two of
the girls who were there at the two branched off.
(21:01):
I guess they kind of realized it, and they said
this is not right, like we need to leave Catherine,
And one of the girls basically threatened Catherine and said, like,
I know too much, So if you don't let everybody go,
I'm gonna tell on you. So I don't know if
it was like this, Khalia when you were there, But
our names weren't attached to the stuff we had, and
(21:22):
so we all didn't really own a car or anything
because we were, you know, driving other people's stuff. And
so I remember, I'm really grateful for these two girls
who told Catherine to do that. So if we had
any debt, they said, you need to pay off their
debt because we weren't making the debt anyways. They were
in charge of our finances, so they had to pay
off our debt. And give everyone a car when we left,
(21:42):
and so Catherine did it, and I remember we're in
her house and she was like saying goodbye, crying, and
her daughters didn't understand why it was such a big
deal for her that we were all leaving. They're kind
of thinking, why, why do you need them, And then
one of the daughters realized, it's because we are her livelihood.
This is how she is living, thriving. Catherine would get
(22:04):
like the best make up, the best clothes, the best car,
and her kids everyone would get like the best. And
we were living off of nothing, which we didn't mind
doing because I really thought that the money that we
were geting was going to like missions or something, and
then realizing later that, oh my gosh, they were just
using it for themselves, like living their life. And I
see Robert renting huge, multi million dollar places. It's insane.
(22:28):
So that was it. We all just went our separate
ways and didn't look back.
Speaker 3 (22:34):
I'm so proud of you guys for being able to
stand up and stand your ground and make those demands
and get those demands met, because it's like the least
she could do after all of the years and years
of abuse and yeah, whatever she did know or allowed
to happen.
Speaker 4 (22:49):
Yeah, thanks, It wasn't me. It was that it was
one of the girls who were there, two of them, Like,
it wasn't me. Like I didn't. I didn't have the
wherewithal our understanding to like say that at the time.
So I'm really grateful because, you know, at least we
had something when we left, we had.
Speaker 3 (23:05):
I do have one last question. Is there anything that
you would want to say to the people that are
still in that you know, that are still under Robert.
I don't know.
Speaker 4 (23:15):
I just apologize, like especially to Chrissy, that's my friend
from high school. I brought Chrissy to Chakaina. I wish
that day that somebody had called me like, hey, come
out and let's go to Catherine that night. I wish
I would have grabbed Chrissy, like, but I didn't. I
don't know. That's a regret that I have that I
didn't try harder to get people out that night. I
(23:38):
did talk to Christy, we did meet back in twenty
seventeen or something like that, but she wasn't listening. Yeah,
and so I guess I could say, Hey, I'm here
and we're here to talk to you and to walk
you through this. There's life outside of Chicaina, And I mean,
it definitely feels like you come out of jail, to
be honest, because you're so you to just following orders
(24:01):
and not making decisions on your own. I remember when
I came out, like the actual sunlight would like hurt
my eyes because I was so used to like just
working in the office. But I will say, like when
I was there, before I knew something was wrong, I
was living my best life. And I just wonder if
they might be okay right now because they don't know
all the bad stuff And it really is until that
(24:23):
your eyes are open that it hits you, and that's
when it's going to be hard for them. Maybe say
things to them like is he hurting you? Is he
touching you inappropriately? Is he getting in between you or
husband and you? Is he asking you to do things
you're not comfortable with? Like those kind of questions. That's
the kind of thing that woke me up.
Speaker 2 (24:51):
We'd like to thank Amanda for this truly enlightening conversation.
Her journey of resilience and discovery sheds light on the
complexities of faith and community, as well as the challenges
of navigating manipulative environments.
Speaker 3 (25:03):
We hope her insights on deprogramming and protecting oneself resonate
with those who might be facing similar situations. We truly
wish her and her family the very best on their
healing journey.
Speaker 2 (25:13):
If you found this conversation valuable, please subscribe, rate, and
leave a review. Your support helps reach more listeners and
share these important stories.
Speaker 3 (25:22):
This has been Forgive Me For I Have Followed. We'll
be back next week. Forgive Me For I Have Followed
is a production from wv Sound, Dirty Robert and iHeartMedia's
Michael Tore podcast Network, hosted by me, Kalia Gray, he
Me Jess Cassavetto. Forgive Me For I Have Followed is
produced by Aaron Burlson and Sophie Spencer Zabos.
Speaker 2 (25:41):
Our executive producers are Kalia Gray, myself, Wilmar Balderama, Leo Klem,
and Aaron Burlison at wv Sound.
Speaker 3 (25:48):
This episode was edited by Sean Tracy and features original
music by Madison Davenport and Halo Boy. For more podcasts
from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever
you listen to your favorite shows.
Speaker 2 (26:00):
See you next week, See you next week.
Hosts And Creators
Jessica Acevedo
Kailea Gray
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Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com