December 5, 2024 • 21 mins
In this episode, we’re joined by Andrew, a former member of Shekinah for over six years in the early 2000s. He shares his journey into the world of the church, how his labor was exploited, and how much of his experience was shaped by his various roles within the cult. He also discusses the disturbing accusations against Pastor Robert Shinn that ultimately led him to leave. Finally, Andrew explains his decision to come forward and how he has reconciled with his spiritual programming.
Forgive Me For I Have Followed continues the exploration from Netflix’s hit Dancing for the Devil documentary series by delving deeper into the personal stories of those affected by Robert Shinn, Shekinah Church, and 7M Films. We will focus on the experiences of victims and their families, address urgent questions raised in the documentary, and gather insights from former members and dancers. Our goal is to uncover strategies for combating abuse and ensuring that controlling, cult-like communities are held accountable for their actions.
*The following is based on actual events. Certain composite and representative materials and characters have been used for dramatic purposes.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
The reason I'm doing this because when the righteous man
doesn't stand up, evil will try up. We need to
stand up. This is wrong, this is evil.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
Welcome back to forgive me for I have followed. I'm
Jess Cassavetto, executive producer of the Netflix series Dancing for
the Devil The Seven M TikTok Cult. This documentary series
explored the story of Robert Shin, the La bas Chkaina
Church and Seven M Films. Shin founded Chakaina Church over
two decades ago before establishing Seven M Films and is
named in a civil lawsuit alleging abuse and cult like behavior.
Speaker 3 (00:40):
And I'm Culiah Gray, former member of Chakaina Church and
Seven M Films. In this episode, we're joined by Andrew.
He's a former member of Chicina for over six years. Today,
he's going to share his story into the world of Chicina,
how his labor was exploited, and how much of his
experience was shaped by the various roles within the church.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
He also discusses the disturb accusations against the La based
Chakina Church's pastor, Robert Shin, that ultimately led him to leave. Finally,
Andrew explains his decision to come forward, and his journey
of spiritual deprogramming.
Speaker 4 (01:11):
Now our conversation with Andrew.
Speaker 3 (01:15):
Quick disclaimer, this episode discusses allegations of sexual assault.
Speaker 4 (01:19):
Listener discretion is advised.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
All right, goodness, all right.
Speaker 3 (01:25):
Andrew, thank you so much for joining us today. I'm
really excited to have you on. There's just so much
that had happened before I had joined Chikina that I
was just so unaware of, and so it's really helped
me kind of navigate the process of like healing from
just the experience of being around Chikina in seven M.
Thank you for being here. I see you're at work
(01:45):
right now. So what do you What do you do
for work?
Speaker 1 (01:48):
I work for Sacramento Municipal Utility District.
Speaker 4 (01:53):
I'm in Sacramento. You are, I'm in your smud.
Speaker 3 (02:02):
So what kind of led you to come and share
your story today?
Speaker 1 (02:07):
For me, have no monetary gain. My purpose is just
to help others and hopefully prevent future victims. Right.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
Oh yeah, I'm really looking forward to this conversation Andrew.
So much of this organically developed through social media, and
I actually initially had seen you commenting after the documentary
came out and seeing more and more comments in you
speaking up and being able to reach out is exactly
how this whole thing came about. And it was not
(02:37):
an easy decision for a lot of people. And so
I echo what Kalia said and thank you so much
for coming forward. There's so many questions that we have
of what drove you to leave. But before we get there,
how did you get introduced to Chicaga.
Speaker 1 (02:52):
So? I was an immigrant from Indonesia back in two
thousand and one. May rest off the boat. My only
friend is my cousin. My cousin, he's friend with Matthew
quick refresher.
Speaker 2 (03:05):
Matthew Shin is a realtor that has worked closely with
Robert for many many years and is believed to still
be a part of the church today.
Speaker 1 (03:13):
Yes, and one day Matthew invited my cousin and I
to his house for game night. Nothing harmless about it.
I was like, okay, and pizza will be served, video
game pizza pizza. Come on right, you're seventeen sixteen, you
know we like video games and food. But the week
after Matthew invited us again, I was like, oh, because
(03:34):
it was so much fun last week, But this time
I remember one person for sure is Ryan Shan, Robert Shan, nephew,
you know, and for some reason, you know, there's no game.
San Luis sit in a circle and talk about what
do you know about your salvation? How do you know
one hundred percent suregar to heaven kind of talk. We say, yes,
(03:55):
you know, we believe in God, blah blah blah. That shebang,
and it's that demands like, oh, come to Sunday service.
We go to Sunday service. And then suddenly we got
to know Catherine, you know, she talks to Ryan. I
was like, what about this indo boys? We called Indo
boys that Matthew, me, my cousin, and one more kid,
(04:16):
so we are the Indo boys. I was like, have
these into boys go to witnessing program on Saturday? Started
Witnessing evolved into Wednesday night service and it doesn't Tree.
I graduated. Because of my illegal status at the time,
they decided to bring me in into one of their
housing in Artisia.
Speaker 2 (04:36):
Was that common for immigrants to join the church and
then for them to have them move into housing to
help kind of get situated.
Speaker 1 (04:45):
I'm very vulnerable at the time because I have nowhere
to go I direction. Nobody is helping me out, and
then I don't like the direction my uncle and aunt
gave me. She kind of troop in and then put
me in this bubble where like you'll be protected with us,
just serve God and things will work out. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (05:06):
So once you got involved with Chicana, so now you're there,
you're living with them.
Speaker 4 (05:11):
What was the daily life like?
Speaker 1 (05:14):
Monday to Friday? This is our schedule. Five o'clock when
we wake up. We drove from our housing, go to
the church to get there. Six or something like that.
We start doing confessions ten to fifteen minutes and we
start running in place. It's ridiculous, right yeah, and then
spaking talent and praying, and then there's a podium where
(05:34):
they put a speaker in a microphone. You're supposed to
go out there and start praying tongue and ron of everybody.
It took me a while to get used to it
until like one day, like Catherine come from behind that
ky you go next. I was like, what the heck?
I get used to it. I can to it. So
that is five to seven o'clock and then after seven
(05:56):
o'clock we clean up, people go to work. I work
for the flower shop with Hannah Lee and Melanie too
and Ryan broken flower shop. Fiki's Flowers opened a close
at five or six. I forgot slate. That's my day
to day, Monday to Friday.
Speaker 4 (06:17):
Were you paid for your time at the flower shop?
Speaker 1 (06:20):
How much I get paid for a month? How much
one dollars? Their defense is like, oh, you don't pay rent,
you got food, you got somewhat close. I got one
hundred dollars a month with the tax ten percent. Men
of God tied offering.
Speaker 3 (06:37):
You still had to give offering tithe and man of
God from the one hundred.
Speaker 1 (06:43):
Yep, so I got seventy bucks.
Speaker 4 (06:45):
Wow, Andrew.
Speaker 1 (06:47):
And then one time Katherine you yell at me like
you need to get more because she checked our books.
We have the ledger right or you not giving I
was like I home to one hundred dollars on my knee.
Speaker 2 (06:58):
You know, like, my goodness, are you working on a
green card because you said that you came in as
an immigrant or at this time was it kind of
under the table, under the table, okay, So do you
feel that maybe that was part of how they were
taking advantage of you.
Speaker 1 (07:13):
Yes, because they angled the green card as a carrot
in front, like, hey, you this forgot God. Because of
your faith, you will get your green car, all right.
And then on two thousand and five to six, is
I forgot Joe Montgomery Pieces sister sent a letter to
the government like, hey, you know Andrew's case, can you
(07:34):
clear it up? Blah blah blah. That messed my case
because after I got up, I got a lawyer, and
then he cleaned that up. That's why for the state.
Speaker 2 (07:44):
Now, yeah, being an immigrant, I had an immigrant stepfather,
and I know what that does, and I know the
toll that it takes and the uncertainty around life. And
so if someone's dangling a carrot and someone's seemingly actively
sabotaging that process, which is very, very difficult and time consuming,
can you walk us through a little bit about what
(08:04):
that was like for you.
Speaker 1 (08:06):
I feel like, okay, you know, if I pray hard enough,
if I work hard enough, because when I was like
a flower shop, it's frowned upon to take a break,
you know, they said, like you got to work, you're
bought off, and pray so God will open doors. Like okay,
I'll do it. And then I'm just so dumb and
(08:26):
nowive believing it, like, Okay, if I do this, my
green card will come out next year. You know, some
way will open up as why it is just exhausting,
like I don't know what to do. You know. Towards
the end of my tendorship, they're like, oh, we're working
on it for you. You're still waiting for it. And
these guys has no legal expertise, so they messed up
(08:48):
my case. I was like, they don't know what they're doing.
They're just working by fate.
Speaker 3 (08:55):
After the break, we continue our conversation with Andrew.
Speaker 4 (08:58):
This is forgive me for I have fallen. We'll be
right back.
Speaker 2 (09:05):
Welcome back to forgive me for I have followed. Now
back to our conversation with Andrew.
Speaker 4 (09:13):
So while you were in Chakina, about how long were
you in you said you hadn't moved in around two
thousand and one.
Speaker 1 (09:18):
Yeah, so two thousand and eight, that's when things broke
loose where I come to church for a rehearsal. Oh,
by the way, I do play bass guitar for the church.
And as I was rehearsing, like where's peace, where's the
rest of the band member, they're not there. My bass
teacher he played the keyboard, so it's like, just just
(09:39):
practice by ourselves, we'd be fine. And then service started.
I'm believed nine, like, where's everybody? Nobody showing up? Robert
I'm not going to call him pastor because he's not
a pastor. He walked like start talking like I was like,
what is going on? Something is awkward, you know. I
suddenly Catherine storming and start yelling going on, I'm shocked, Yeah,
(10:01):
she's yelling at him, and suddenly the conversation talked about
like he playing with the girls. I'm shocked. I'm like, oh,
what the heck? That's just wrong. Yeah, so I walk out.
I'm like asking God, I was like, am I in
a show or something?
Speaker 4 (10:17):
Like?
Speaker 1 (10:18):
Right? You just took advantage for him for five years?
Speaker 4 (10:20):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (10:21):
So the service ended, everybody split, and then Monday comes
and everything just kind of back to normal. But you
can feel the tension mm hmm. You know, well, Hannah
and Melanie is in same group with Robert, and then
we have joy with Catherine and they like monitoring each
(10:42):
other in the shop. It feels like whole war and
you don't know where to pick. You don't know which
side is the right side.
Speaker 2 (10:52):
Oh, because the next day, everyone's still working at the
flower shop. So even though that happened at the church,
everyone is still in the same space.
Speaker 4 (11:00):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (11:01):
So again, every Monday night we have to submit report.
I don't know if you've done that. We catalog what
you read day to day and tell us your stories
of the week. That is kind of like the way
Robert monitored us at home. We don't feel like ourselves
because we're hiring each other. I think with the guy's
(11:22):
a little bit lax because like we do dumb things together.
You know. Yeah, the same feeling. But times ten at
work on Monday, we're honoring each other out until my
base teacher, the minister under Robert at the time he
delivered flower for us. That's how much Robert put him
so low from minister to delivery man. I'm sweeping, I'm
(11:46):
mopping and everything right at the shops and he just
like pulled me to the side behind the cooler and
he's like, hey, this is not the same Robert that
I know before. You know, he put my shirt and
he's doing this to the girls, and I want to
save you. Do you have place to go? It's like probably,
(12:07):
And then he asks me if my cousin is really
opened his door to move in again, the same cousin
I have, so right away I called my cousin flutly
at the time when I say, hey, something is wrong.
We need to get out. And my cousin can tell
by my tone because we've been very close friends since
(12:27):
we were little. He can tell like I am serious.
So okay, what they do? I cannot move in And
then he led me to move back in. And that's
one guy. His name is Raphael. I don't know if
he's here yet. Yeah, okay. I asked my cousin, can
you call Rafiele for me? We need to get him
(12:49):
out too, And I found out later Matthew was with
him all day, monitoring every move he made. He can
answer the phone, he can text back.
Speaker 4 (13:01):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (13:01):
I think Raphel can clear follow this. Either Matthew holds
his phone or something.
Speaker 2 (13:07):
Which parallels a little bit of what we saw in
the documentary. You know, there's just always that question on
whether or not they have access to their phone or
if they're being monitored by other people. Obviously we can't
guarantee that, but we can speculate, and I think if
people had that experience it's where the speculation comes from.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
Yeah, I believe they have access but monitored at the
same time. Yeah, and then they got told what they
can post or not post.
Speaker 4 (13:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (13:33):
And that's what I can speak to is when we
were there, it wasn't like phones would be confiscated. It's
more conversational where it's like, oh, this person texted me,
that person texted me, And that type of monitoring would
happen from like a mentorship standpoint of like, oh, well,
you know, these people aren't dedicated to God, so I
don't know if you'd really want to talk to them
like that was you know, how it would kind of work.
(13:55):
But absolutely, like what to post and what not to
post was largely controlled by and management.
Speaker 4 (14:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (14:01):
And I'm so glad that you had your cousin and
it just it really reminds me. I had that same
moment with my husband because when we had noticed that
something was wrong, and the boys also had gotten together
and talked, and he came home and had said, just
like it was the same. I could tell by his
tone that it was serious, and I said okay, and
he said, we need to get out of here, and
so I started looking for apartments that same day.
Speaker 4 (14:24):
So it's really helpful having i.
Speaker 3 (14:27):
Think someone there with you that you can trust that
you were able to get out together and have a
safe place to go.
Speaker 2 (14:33):
So just hearing your story and it just you following
your gut, and I'm happy to hear that you acknowledged something.
And I think that was one of the questions that
we had because not a lot of men came forward
throughout this process, and knowing that there were men in
there that acknowledged that there's something wrong, like this is
not right, and the fact that you in a way
(14:54):
are an ally and you were like, you know what,
I'm going to go with my gut here, and I'm
going to believe the women, and I'm going to get
out of here. And so thank you for you know,
standing your ground and going with that gut feeling.
Speaker 1 (15:07):
Yeah. But not only that though. The reason I'm doing
this because when the righteous man doesn't stand up, evil
will try them. Right, we need to stand up. This
is wrong, this is evil.
Speaker 2 (15:20):
When we return the conclusion to our conversation with Andrew,
this is forgive me for I have followed.
Speaker 3 (15:30):
Welcome back to forgive me for I have followed. Here's
the conclusion of our conversation with Andrew. Since leaving Chakaina,
has your relationship been like with religion and with your faith?
Do you feel like it played a role in like distrust?
Speaker 1 (15:46):
Oh yeah, big time. My wife can see it, you know.
But I don't trust big organization anymore where it requires devotions.
It's so hard to like, hey, I'm gonna follow this church,
you know whatever they say, You're gonna volunteer for this
or no, you don't tell me what to do anymore.
Speaker 4 (16:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:08):
And then if they tell a sermon and they show
a scripture and then they explain it, I was like,
hold on, what's the context of the whole thing? You know,
I was able to detach myself like, now I'm not
fully invested on your sermon. Let me think for myself,
let me use my critical thinking on this. So the
(16:29):
relationship is there, but very very fragile. If you make
a single mode that like, that's not right. I'm outside.
Speaker 4 (16:37):
Yeah, So what.
Speaker 2 (16:38):
Steps have you taken to heal and how have you
worked to open your mind to new experiences since then?
Speaker 1 (16:46):
It's a long process, you know, I'm struggling. I work
for Chios in the mom selling piercing, making minimum wage,
riding bicycles every day. I was like, man, it's not living,
it's not fun. And you know, I'm agent. I want
a chief, right or something bigger and better. Until one
day my uncle from Sacramento invited me to move to Sacramento.
(17:10):
And I moved to Sacramento twenty eleven and I still
continue my college degree and graduate twenty nineteen with Business
and Science bachelor degree and finance science, and I work
for a sushi restaurant mconey.
Speaker 4 (17:24):
I love mcconey's.
Speaker 1 (17:27):
There as the bartender, and I get to senior people
and oh, people are different. It's not the way she
kind of picture people outside this ch kinda they actually friendly,
they actually smart, open book, lots of ideas, creative. I
was like, this is like, this is different. And then
I started changing a little bit here and there. And
(17:49):
then one day my friend, one of our for workers,
she does cross It, and she told us like, hey,
my gym has a promo and then just try it
for mud, and then we try it for I got
involved with that and I loved it and that become
a member of that. It's kind of like a cult,
but it's not. I could do whatever WAN want.
Speaker 4 (18:08):
For got to disappoin it.
Speaker 1 (18:10):
But that opens my mind even more, Like I want
to try that, I want to try this food, I
want to try this culture. I'm not I have so
much freedom. I'm like, Wow, this is why I've been
missing in Chicaina, you know. So, and then I explored
jiu jitsu. Oh there's a better package that I don't
want to open. I just get into it three years ago,
(18:31):
you know, just opened mine. It's just like keep opening
up saying oh I can what can else I can open?
Speaker 3 (18:37):
Yeah, congratulations on finishing college and getting into new things
and expanding your minds.
Speaker 4 (18:43):
Like I know, it takes so much dedication.
Speaker 3 (18:45):
And when I had joined Chicina, I actually dropped out
of school and I'm in the process of re enrolling
now so I could finish getting my bachelor. So it's
like that move to Sacramento going back to school.
Speaker 4 (18:56):
I see it.
Speaker 3 (18:56):
And this has really just inspired me to really finish
the things that I was supposed to finish before.
Speaker 4 (19:02):
So thank you so much for sharing that. I really appreciate.
Speaker 1 (19:05):
Hearing that, Yeah, you can do it. I don't like school,
but I did it anyway.
Speaker 2 (19:10):
Yeah, what would you say to someone that is currently
involved in a cult like environment or high controlled group
and might be wanting to get out or recently got
out and trying to find what would be helpful for
them to heal.
Speaker 1 (19:23):
So this words before my mom passed away. If she
came to the church to check it out and she
loves it, I was like, oh wow, I love the
music because we played hill song and stuff right and
I was rocking out too at the time. The last
sentence that till today still rings in my ears. Don't
be naive. I always ask questions. My business manager here
(19:47):
said like, if you don't know why certain thing a
certain way, ask the five wives. Usually you will find
the answer by the third why. And that's a business
principle and it works like magic and everything. My wife
hates it, but you get your ends for most of
the time. And then if they told you to stop
asking why, use your common sense. You gut will tell you.
(20:08):
If it's wrong, it's all right. Don't be nice if
something too good to be true, ask questions.
Speaker 2 (20:21):
We'd like to thank Andrew for sharing his story with
us on today's episode. We truly appreciate his courage in
speaking about his experience, and we wish him all the
best on his healing journey.
Speaker 3 (20:31):
If you found this conversation valuable, please subscribe, rate and
leave a review. Your support helps us reach more listeners
and share these very important stories.
Speaker 4 (20:40):
This is Forgive Me For I Have Followed. We'll be
back soon.
Speaker 3 (20:44):
Forgive Me For I Have Followed is a production from
WV Sound, Dirty Robert and iHeartMedia's Michael Tore podcast Network,
hosted by me Kalia Gray, he Me Jess cassabetto Forgive
Me For I Have Followed is produced by Aaron Burlson
and Sophie Spencer Zabos. Our executive producers are Collia Gray, myself,
Wilmer Balderama, Leo Clam and Aaron Burlison at wb Sound.
(21:05):
This episode was edited by Sean Tracy and features original
music by Madison Davenport and Halo Boy. For more podcasts
from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever
you listen to your favorite shows.
Speaker 4 (21:18):
See you next week, See you next week,
The reason I'm doing this because when the righteous man
doesn't stand up, evil will try up. We need to
stand up. This is wrong, this is evil.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
Welcome back to forgive me for I have followed. I'm
Jess Cassavetto, executive producer of the Netflix series Dancing for
the Devil The Seven M TikTok Cult. This documentary series
explored the story of Robert Shin, the La bas Chkaina
Church and Seven M Films. Shin founded Chakaina Church over
two decades ago before establishing Seven M Films and is
named in a civil lawsuit alleging abuse and cult like behavior.
Speaker 3 (00:40):
And I'm Culiah Gray, former member of Chakaina Church and
Seven M Films. In this episode, we're joined by Andrew.
He's a former member of Chicina for over six years. Today,
he's going to share his story into the world of Chicina,
how his labor was exploited, and how much of his
experience was shaped by the various roles within the church.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
He also discusses the disturb accusations against the La based
Chakina Church's pastor, Robert Shin, that ultimately led him to leave. Finally,
Andrew explains his decision to come forward, and his journey
of spiritual deprogramming.
Speaker 4 (01:11):
Now our conversation with Andrew.
Speaker 3 (01:15):
Quick disclaimer, this episode discusses allegations of sexual assault.
Speaker 4 (01:19):
Listener discretion is advised.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
All right, goodness, all right.
Speaker 3 (01:25):
Andrew, thank you so much for joining us today. I'm
really excited to have you on. There's just so much
that had happened before I had joined Chikina that I
was just so unaware of, and so it's really helped
me kind of navigate the process of like healing from
just the experience of being around Chikina in seven M.
Thank you for being here. I see you're at work
(01:45):
right now. So what do you What do you do
for work?
Speaker 1 (01:48):
I work for Sacramento Municipal Utility District.
Speaker 4 (01:53):
I'm in Sacramento. You are, I'm in your smud.
Speaker 3 (02:02):
So what kind of led you to come and share
your story today?
Speaker 1 (02:07):
For me, have no monetary gain. My purpose is just
to help others and hopefully prevent future victims. Right.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
Oh yeah, I'm really looking forward to this conversation Andrew.
So much of this organically developed through social media, and
I actually initially had seen you commenting after the documentary
came out and seeing more and more comments in you
speaking up and being able to reach out is exactly
how this whole thing came about. And it was not
(02:37):
an easy decision for a lot of people. And so
I echo what Kalia said and thank you so much
for coming forward. There's so many questions that we have
of what drove you to leave. But before we get there,
how did you get introduced to Chicaga.
Speaker 1 (02:52):
So? I was an immigrant from Indonesia back in two
thousand and one. May rest off the boat. My only
friend is my cousin. My cousin, he's friend with Matthew
quick refresher.
Speaker 2 (03:05):
Matthew Shin is a realtor that has worked closely with
Robert for many many years and is believed to still
be a part of the church today.
Speaker 1 (03:13):
Yes, and one day Matthew invited my cousin and I
to his house for game night. Nothing harmless about it.
I was like, okay, and pizza will be served, video
game pizza pizza. Come on right, you're seventeen sixteen, you
know we like video games and food. But the week
after Matthew invited us again, I was like, oh, because
(03:34):
it was so much fun last week, But this time
I remember one person for sure is Ryan Shan, Robert Shan, nephew,
you know, and for some reason, you know, there's no game.
San Luis sit in a circle and talk about what
do you know about your salvation? How do you know
one hundred percent suregar to heaven kind of talk. We say, yes,
(03:55):
you know, we believe in God, blah blah blah. That shebang,
and it's that demands like, oh, come to Sunday service.
We go to Sunday service. And then suddenly we got
to know Catherine, you know, she talks to Ryan. I
was like, what about this indo boys? We called Indo
boys that Matthew, me, my cousin, and one more kid,
(04:16):
so we are the Indo boys. I was like, have
these into boys go to witnessing program on Saturday? Started
Witnessing evolved into Wednesday night service and it doesn't Tree.
I graduated. Because of my illegal status at the time,
they decided to bring me in into one of their
housing in Artisia.
Speaker 2 (04:36):
Was that common for immigrants to join the church and
then for them to have them move into housing to
help kind of get situated.
Speaker 1 (04:45):
I'm very vulnerable at the time because I have nowhere
to go I direction. Nobody is helping me out, and
then I don't like the direction my uncle and aunt
gave me. She kind of troop in and then put
me in this bubble where like you'll be protected with us,
just serve God and things will work out. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (05:06):
So once you got involved with Chicana, so now you're there,
you're living with them.
Speaker 4 (05:11):
What was the daily life like?
Speaker 1 (05:14):
Monday to Friday? This is our schedule. Five o'clock when
we wake up. We drove from our housing, go to
the church to get there. Six or something like that.
We start doing confessions ten to fifteen minutes and we
start running in place. It's ridiculous, right yeah, and then
spaking talent and praying, and then there's a podium where
(05:34):
they put a speaker in a microphone. You're supposed to
go out there and start praying tongue and ron of everybody.
It took me a while to get used to it
until like one day, like Catherine come from behind that
ky you go next. I was like, what the heck?
I get used to it. I can to it. So
that is five to seven o'clock and then after seven
(05:56):
o'clock we clean up, people go to work. I work
for the flower shop with Hannah Lee and Melanie too
and Ryan broken flower shop. Fiki's Flowers opened a close
at five or six. I forgot slate. That's my day
to day, Monday to Friday.
Speaker 4 (06:17):
Were you paid for your time at the flower shop?
Speaker 1 (06:20):
How much I get paid for a month? How much
one dollars? Their defense is like, oh, you don't pay rent,
you got food, you got somewhat close. I got one
hundred dollars a month with the tax ten percent. Men
of God tied offering.
Speaker 3 (06:37):
You still had to give offering tithe and man of
God from the one hundred.
Speaker 1 (06:43):
Yep, so I got seventy bucks.
Speaker 4 (06:45):
Wow, Andrew.
Speaker 1 (06:47):
And then one time Katherine you yell at me like
you need to get more because she checked our books.
We have the ledger right or you not giving I
was like I home to one hundred dollars on my knee.
Speaker 2 (06:58):
You know, like, my goodness, are you working on a
green card because you said that you came in as
an immigrant or at this time was it kind of
under the table, under the table, okay, So do you
feel that maybe that was part of how they were
taking advantage of you.
Speaker 1 (07:13):
Yes, because they angled the green card as a carrot
in front, like, hey, you this forgot God. Because of
your faith, you will get your green car, all right.
And then on two thousand and five to six, is
I forgot Joe Montgomery Pieces sister sent a letter to
the government like, hey, you know Andrew's case, can you
(07:34):
clear it up? Blah blah blah. That messed my case
because after I got up, I got a lawyer, and
then he cleaned that up. That's why for the state.
Speaker 2 (07:44):
Now, yeah, being an immigrant, I had an immigrant stepfather,
and I know what that does, and I know the
toll that it takes and the uncertainty around life. And
so if someone's dangling a carrot and someone's seemingly actively
sabotaging that process, which is very, very difficult and time consuming,
can you walk us through a little bit about what
(08:04):
that was like for you.
Speaker 1 (08:06):
I feel like, okay, you know, if I pray hard enough,
if I work hard enough, because when I was like
a flower shop, it's frowned upon to take a break,
you know, they said, like you got to work, you're
bought off, and pray so God will open doors. Like okay,
I'll do it. And then I'm just so dumb and
(08:26):
nowive believing it, like, Okay, if I do this, my
green card will come out next year. You know, some
way will open up as why it is just exhausting,
like I don't know what to do. You know. Towards
the end of my tendorship, they're like, oh, we're working
on it for you. You're still waiting for it. And
these guys has no legal expertise, so they messed up
(08:48):
my case. I was like, they don't know what they're doing.
They're just working by fate.
Speaker 3 (08:55):
After the break, we continue our conversation with Andrew.
Speaker 4 (08:58):
This is forgive me for I have fallen. We'll be
right back.
Speaker 2 (09:05):
Welcome back to forgive me for I have followed. Now
back to our conversation with Andrew.
Speaker 4 (09:13):
So while you were in Chakina, about how long were
you in you said you hadn't moved in around two
thousand and one.
Speaker 1 (09:18):
Yeah, so two thousand and eight, that's when things broke
loose where I come to church for a rehearsal. Oh,
by the way, I do play bass guitar for the church.
And as I was rehearsing, like where's peace, where's the
rest of the band member, they're not there. My bass
teacher he played the keyboard, so it's like, just just
(09:39):
practice by ourselves, we'd be fine. And then service started.
I'm believed nine, like, where's everybody? Nobody showing up? Robert
I'm not going to call him pastor because he's not
a pastor. He walked like start talking like I was like,
what is going on? Something is awkward, you know. I
suddenly Catherine storming and start yelling going on, I'm shocked, Yeah,
(10:01):
she's yelling at him, and suddenly the conversation talked about
like he playing with the girls. I'm shocked. I'm like, oh,
what the heck? That's just wrong. Yeah, so I walk out.
I'm like asking God, I was like, am I in
a show or something?
Speaker 4 (10:17):
Like?
Speaker 1 (10:18):
Right? You just took advantage for him for five years?
Speaker 4 (10:20):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (10:21):
So the service ended, everybody split, and then Monday comes
and everything just kind of back to normal. But you
can feel the tension mm hmm. You know, well, Hannah
and Melanie is in same group with Robert, and then
we have joy with Catherine and they like monitoring each
(10:42):
other in the shop. It feels like whole war and
you don't know where to pick. You don't know which
side is the right side.
Speaker 2 (10:52):
Oh, because the next day, everyone's still working at the
flower shop. So even though that happened at the church,
everyone is still in the same space.
Speaker 4 (11:00):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (11:01):
So again, every Monday night we have to submit report.
I don't know if you've done that. We catalog what
you read day to day and tell us your stories
of the week. That is kind of like the way
Robert monitored us at home. We don't feel like ourselves
because we're hiring each other. I think with the guy's
(11:22):
a little bit lax because like we do dumb things together.
You know. Yeah, the same feeling. But times ten at
work on Monday, we're honoring each other out until my
base teacher, the minister under Robert at the time he
delivered flower for us. That's how much Robert put him
so low from minister to delivery man. I'm sweeping, I'm
(11:46):
mopping and everything right at the shops and he just
like pulled me to the side behind the cooler and
he's like, hey, this is not the same Robert that
I know before. You know, he put my shirt and
he's doing this to the girls, and I want to
save you. Do you have place to go? It's like probably,
(12:07):
And then he asks me if my cousin is really
opened his door to move in again, the same cousin
I have, so right away I called my cousin flutly
at the time when I say, hey, something is wrong.
We need to get out. And my cousin can tell
by my tone because we've been very close friends since
(12:27):
we were little. He can tell like I am serious.
So okay, what they do? I cannot move in And
then he led me to move back in. And that's
one guy. His name is Raphael. I don't know if
he's here yet. Yeah, okay. I asked my cousin, can
you call Rafiele for me? We need to get him
(12:49):
out too, And I found out later Matthew was with
him all day, monitoring every move he made. He can
answer the phone, he can text back.
Speaker 4 (13:01):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (13:01):
I think Raphel can clear follow this. Either Matthew holds
his phone or something.
Speaker 2 (13:07):
Which parallels a little bit of what we saw in
the documentary. You know, there's just always that question on
whether or not they have access to their phone or
if they're being monitored by other people. Obviously we can't
guarantee that, but we can speculate, and I think if
people had that experience it's where the speculation comes from.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
Yeah, I believe they have access but monitored at the
same time. Yeah, and then they got told what they
can post or not post.
Speaker 4 (13:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (13:33):
And that's what I can speak to is when we
were there, it wasn't like phones would be confiscated. It's
more conversational where it's like, oh, this person texted me,
that person texted me, And that type of monitoring would
happen from like a mentorship standpoint of like, oh, well,
you know, these people aren't dedicated to God, so I
don't know if you'd really want to talk to them
like that was you know, how it would kind of work.
(13:55):
But absolutely, like what to post and what not to
post was largely controlled by and management.
Speaker 4 (14:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (14:01):
And I'm so glad that you had your cousin and
it just it really reminds me. I had that same
moment with my husband because when we had noticed that
something was wrong, and the boys also had gotten together
and talked, and he came home and had said, just
like it was the same. I could tell by his
tone that it was serious, and I said okay, and
he said, we need to get out of here, and
so I started looking for apartments that same day.
Speaker 4 (14:24):
So it's really helpful having i.
Speaker 3 (14:27):
Think someone there with you that you can trust that
you were able to get out together and have a
safe place to go.
Speaker 2 (14:33):
So just hearing your story and it just you following
your gut, and I'm happy to hear that you acknowledged something.
And I think that was one of the questions that
we had because not a lot of men came forward
throughout this process, and knowing that there were men in
there that acknowledged that there's something wrong, like this is
not right, and the fact that you in a way
(14:54):
are an ally and you were like, you know what,
I'm going to go with my gut here, and I'm
going to believe the women, and I'm going to get
out of here. And so thank you for you know,
standing your ground and going with that gut feeling.
Speaker 1 (15:07):
Yeah. But not only that though. The reason I'm doing
this because when the righteous man doesn't stand up, evil
will try them. Right, we need to stand up. This
is wrong, this is evil.
Speaker 2 (15:20):
When we return the conclusion to our conversation with Andrew,
this is forgive me for I have followed.
Speaker 3 (15:30):
Welcome back to forgive me for I have followed. Here's
the conclusion of our conversation with Andrew. Since leaving Chakaina,
has your relationship been like with religion and with your faith?
Do you feel like it played a role in like distrust?
Speaker 1 (15:46):
Oh yeah, big time. My wife can see it, you know.
But I don't trust big organization anymore where it requires devotions.
It's so hard to like, hey, I'm gonna follow this church,
you know whatever they say, You're gonna volunteer for this
or no, you don't tell me what to do anymore.
Speaker 4 (16:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:08):
And then if they tell a sermon and they show
a scripture and then they explain it, I was like,
hold on, what's the context of the whole thing? You know,
I was able to detach myself like, now I'm not
fully invested on your sermon. Let me think for myself,
let me use my critical thinking on this. So the
(16:29):
relationship is there, but very very fragile. If you make
a single mode that like, that's not right. I'm outside.
Speaker 4 (16:37):
Yeah, So what.
Speaker 2 (16:38):
Steps have you taken to heal and how have you
worked to open your mind to new experiences since then?
Speaker 1 (16:46):
It's a long process, you know, I'm struggling. I work
for Chios in the mom selling piercing, making minimum wage,
riding bicycles every day. I was like, man, it's not living,
it's not fun. And you know, I'm agent. I want
a chief, right or something bigger and better. Until one
day my uncle from Sacramento invited me to move to Sacramento.
(17:10):
And I moved to Sacramento twenty eleven and I still
continue my college degree and graduate twenty nineteen with Business
and Science bachelor degree and finance science, and I work
for a sushi restaurant mconey.
Speaker 4 (17:24):
I love mcconey's.
Speaker 1 (17:27):
There as the bartender, and I get to senior people
and oh, people are different. It's not the way she
kind of picture people outside this ch kinda they actually friendly,
they actually smart, open book, lots of ideas, creative. I
was like, this is like, this is different. And then
I started changing a little bit here and there. And
(17:49):
then one day my friend, one of our for workers,
she does cross It, and she told us like, hey,
my gym has a promo and then just try it
for mud, and then we try it for I got
involved with that and I loved it and that become
a member of that. It's kind of like a cult,
but it's not. I could do whatever WAN want.
Speaker 4 (18:08):
For got to disappoin it.
Speaker 1 (18:10):
But that opens my mind even more, Like I want
to try that, I want to try this food, I
want to try this culture. I'm not I have so
much freedom. I'm like, Wow, this is why I've been
missing in Chicaina, you know. So, and then I explored
jiu jitsu. Oh there's a better package that I don't
want to open. I just get into it three years ago,
(18:31):
you know, just opened mine. It's just like keep opening
up saying oh I can what can else I can open?
Speaker 3 (18:37):
Yeah, congratulations on finishing college and getting into new things
and expanding your minds.
Speaker 4 (18:43):
Like I know, it takes so much dedication.
Speaker 3 (18:45):
And when I had joined Chicina, I actually dropped out
of school and I'm in the process of re enrolling
now so I could finish getting my bachelor. So it's
like that move to Sacramento going back to school.
Speaker 4 (18:56):
I see it.
Speaker 3 (18:56):
And this has really just inspired me to really finish
the things that I was supposed to finish before.
Speaker 4 (19:02):
So thank you so much for sharing that. I really appreciate.
Speaker 1 (19:05):
Hearing that, Yeah, you can do it. I don't like school,
but I did it anyway.
Speaker 2 (19:10):
Yeah, what would you say to someone that is currently
involved in a cult like environment or high controlled group
and might be wanting to get out or recently got
out and trying to find what would be helpful for
them to heal.
Speaker 1 (19:23):
So this words before my mom passed away. If she
came to the church to check it out and she
loves it, I was like, oh wow, I love the
music because we played hill song and stuff right and
I was rocking out too at the time. The last
sentence that till today still rings in my ears. Don't
be naive. I always ask questions. My business manager here
(19:47):
said like, if you don't know why certain thing a
certain way, ask the five wives. Usually you will find
the answer by the third why. And that's a business
principle and it works like magic and everything. My wife
hates it, but you get your ends for most of
the time. And then if they told you to stop
asking why, use your common sense. You gut will tell you.
(20:08):
If it's wrong, it's all right. Don't be nice if
something too good to be true, ask questions.
Speaker 2 (20:21):
We'd like to thank Andrew for sharing his story with
us on today's episode. We truly appreciate his courage in
speaking about his experience, and we wish him all the
best on his healing journey.
Speaker 3 (20:31):
If you found this conversation valuable, please subscribe, rate and
leave a review. Your support helps us reach more listeners
and share these very important stories.
Speaker 4 (20:40):
This is Forgive Me For I Have Followed. We'll be
back soon.
Speaker 3 (20:44):
Forgive Me For I Have Followed is a production from
WV Sound, Dirty Robert and iHeartMedia's Michael Tore podcast Network,
hosted by me Kalia Gray, he Me Jess cassabetto Forgive
Me For I Have Followed is produced by Aaron Burlson
and Sophie Spencer Zabos. Our executive producers are Collia Gray, myself,
Wilmer Balderama, Leo Clam and Aaron Burlison at wb Sound.
(21:05):
This episode was edited by Sean Tracy and features original
music by Madison Davenport and Halo Boy. For more podcasts
from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever
you listen to your favorite shows.
Speaker 4 (21:18):
See you next week, See you next week,
Hosts And Creators
Jessica Acevedo
Kailea Gray
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