January 23, 2025 • 41 mins
In this episode, Jessica and Kailea dive deep into the recent controversies surrounding Krump dancer Chez “TIGHTEYEX” Wills. From the creation of Krump Inc. and the rift it’s caused within the community, to his unwavering defense of Robert Shinn and Shekinah Church despite numerous allegations, they explore the complex layers of loyalty, power, and division at play. The hosts also examine how Chez, once a victim of the very structures he now defends, may have shifted from victim to alleged perpetrator in his controversial actions. With a focus on his public confrontations, including the challenge to Kevin Konkrete Davis, they reflect on how these dynamics reshape the Krump movement and what this means for its future.
For updates on the Lee sisters and their upcoming podcast, follow @melanielee, @elishapriscyllaleigh and @7mtiktokcult podcast.
Forgive Me For I Have Followed continues the exploration from Netflix’s hit Dancing for the Devil documentary series by delving deeper into the personal stories of those affected by Robert Shinn, Shekinah Church, and 7M Films. We will focus on the experiences of victims and their families, address urgent questions raised in the documentary, and gather insights from former members and dancers. Our goal is to uncover strategies for combating abuse and ensuring that controlling, cult-like communities are held accountable for their actions.
*The following is based on actual events. Certain composite and representative materials and characters have been used for dramatic purposes.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
He was known as one of the creators of Crump.
So to us, he was like a gone at the time,
and he would consistently be dming me. That's around the
time when he wanted to try to hang out with
me and in his terms, show me what a real
man is. And then it just started turning into an
uncomfortable situation.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
Welcome back to forgive me for I have followed. I'm
jessicasiveto executive producer of the Netflix series Dancing for the
Devil the Seven M TikTok Cult. This documentary series explored
the story of Robert Shin, the La based Chakaina Church
and Seven M Films. Shin founded Chakaina Church over two
decades ago before establishing Seven M Films and is named
in a civil lawsuit alleging abuse and cult like behavior.
Speaker 3 (00:56):
And I'm Clia Gray, former member of Chicina Church and
Seven M Films.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
In this episode, we dive deep into the recent controversies
surrounding Crump. Dancer Chesaret tied Eyes willis from the creation
of Crump, Inc. Even going as far as to call
himself President Crump, and the rift it's caused within the
community to his unwavering defense of Robert Schen and Chicaina
Church despite numerous allegations. We explore the complex layers of loyalty, power,
(01:22):
and division at play.
Speaker 3 (01:24):
We also examine how Chez, once a victim of the
very structures he now defends, may have shifted from victim
to a lleged perpetrator in his controversial actions. With a
focus on his public confrontations, including the challenge to Kevin,
we reflect on how these dynamics reshape the Crump movement
and what this means for its future. And now our
conversation about tide Eyes.
Speaker 2 (01:57):
Happy New Year, everyone, welcome to forgive me for I
have followed before we go into catching you all up
of what's been happening, because there was a lot that
happened over the break, so much, so much. Do want
to just give our heartfelt condolences to people that have
lost their homes, family members in the fires, the palisades eaten,
(02:21):
and just the surrounding areas in California. Our hearts are
with everyone for their loss. Please continue to volunteer. It
doesn't stop after just the first few weeks. So I
bring that up because the fire did hit very close
to home. Someone from the documentary. Someone that we've spoken
a lot about. Her and her family were evacuated in
(02:41):
a very scary time. That's her story to tell. But
I was checking in regularly because I was very concerned.
Speaker 3 (02:50):
Absolutely, and I think that speaks to our slow start
as well to the year just being mindful of all
the changes both locally and far that have been going
going on.
Speaker 4 (03:00):
Absolutely well.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
As we said, we are going to catch you up
on some of the things that happened over the holiday.
I feel like there was a lot of things popping up.
There were videos popping up, there were conversations, there were accounts.
There's exciting new podcasts that are coming. So just to
catch you guys up first and foremost, the Lease Sisters
are officially starting their podcast, which I'm so incredibly excited
(03:27):
to listen to. For those that don't know who the
Lease Sisters are, they were in Chicina what we call
One point zero. They were in the documentary and shared
their incredible stories. Alisha actually got out in real time
while we were filming. They have accounts on Instagram so
you can follow them. They're giving updates. Alisha's actually doing
a countdown to the trial, and I know that their
(03:48):
podcast is going to be talking a lot about that.
Speaker 4 (03:50):
But let me just.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
Say, Alisha's Instagram is fire. Yes, she is not holding back,
and it's so incredibly powerful and it just really speaks
to her her strengthness.
Speaker 3 (04:01):
And even though I'm part of the trial, I've been
tuned into Alicia's countdown because she is not holding back
and I'm here for it. I'm in full support of it,
and neither am I.
Speaker 2 (04:10):
She's putting facts in those stories about experiences throughout her
twenty something years in Chicaina. So gloves are coming off,
and so that takes us to some of the other
things that were happening over the holiday.
Speaker 4 (04:26):
Tied Ice ted Ice started.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
A new crump ink YouTube account. Specifically, he has a
series It's President Crump with his first video titled Draining
the Swamp and Reviving the Movement. So in that video, obviously, Clia,
(04:49):
tell me how you were feeling about it, because this one,
in particular, calls out your husband, calls out Kevin. What
was going on in the household? How did that all feel?
Because I did see it because Kevin had reposted it.
Speaker 3 (05:03):
So I mean it was interesting because for us it
sort of came out of nowhere like for people who
don't know. To the best of our knowledge, Chess is
a part of Chokina. He was there when we were
a part of it, and he was there when we left.
So I think for the most part, at least between
the dancers, there had been very little to no communication.
(05:24):
So when the video came out, it was kind of
like a shocker as far as Chess directing it to Kevin,
and while he mentioned a few other dancers, I think
he kind of leaned the hardest into Kevin, you know,
very much like name calling and like, I don't know,
I think it was shocking to hear the video, but
I understood the motivations behind. So the best of my knowledge,
why Chess had put a video out because I know
(05:47):
he and you know the Seven M and Chkina group,
I think they are feeling attacked in a way, so
that was their means to defend their actions, defend their choices.
And I think that's something that Chess himself has said
was people have been talking so much mess about me
and my family. This is my first time actually responding
to the drama. In his mind, it's hard because it's
(06:11):
like this was not an attack on your character. This
was not an attack on your beliefs as far as
Christianity goes. I think it was just us giving our
experiences and telling our truth to.
Speaker 4 (06:25):
The public, you know, the saying like a hit doggle holler.
Speaker 3 (06:28):
I think that was the feeling that we felt when
we saw these videos, as far as like, you're trying
to fiercely defend something that the vast majority of us
see as problematic, potentially dangerous, and harmful to the community.
So the series of videos that he's come out like,
I see it as a cry for help, because it's like,
you guys are absolutely backed into a corner, as you
(06:50):
should be, because these things have been harming a community,
whether you are a willing participant of it or not.
Speaker 4 (06:57):
That's what it is doing. It is causing harm for sure.
Speaker 2 (07:00):
And so I think to go back for those that
are not familiar with Chez tied Is as willis, he
is one of the creators of.
Speaker 4 (07:08):
Crump, which has been debated.
Speaker 3 (07:09):
That's a very hot topic within the Crump community, which.
Speaker 2 (07:12):
Is where my hesitation to continue was. But he is
also a or was a member of seven m in Choicina,
and I think just for the question I am going
to read something because I do think it just is
in context. But one of the comments on that first
video was from someone that says, I think tied Is'
(07:34):
is one of the best answers in the world. I'm
a true fan since the beginning. And with that said,
I hope you're not in a cult, brother, I pray
that you find Christ, the real Jesus and not that
cult leader from Chakaina. He's preaching the word wrong and
giving the real Christians a bad look. I love you, bro, godspeed,
which I think is a very beautiful sentiment. Absolutely, tied
I's actually responded to that message that says, don't believe
(07:58):
everything you hear on streaming platforms and you will be
all right. And you don't go to Chakaina, so you
don't know the words that's preached. So it gives me
some sort of indication that he still is in Chakaina. Absolutely,
that's my assumption based on the comment.
Speaker 3 (08:15):
I think the reason why I also strongly believe he
is still a part of it is something that I
heard out of Chesz's mouth was this is the hill
I'm going to die on. So despite any new evidence,
despite any revealing of things, that are problematic. That is,
according to him, the hill that he wants to die on.
Speaker 2 (08:33):
And also, you know, we did see that video come
out that Kendra also known as Ko as kind of
this new YouTube series as well Kendra as his wife.
She's doing like a little talk show. Her first guest
was Miranda and in that they talk about did you
not see this? I did not see this? Oh oh okay,
she's got this kind of new talk show a thing
(08:54):
that they're doing. She brings on Miranda and in that
they're just kind of answering questions. And here's the thing,
as we're going to go into talking about Tied Eyes. Unfortunately,
throughout this process, I haven't heard a whole lot of
good things about this man. So when we first were
made aware of seven M and Chokaina and we started
to investigate this, we actually started to look a lot
(09:16):
more into Tight Eyes because we're hearing a lot about
this person, and not in a good way. We were
hearing about how he was in a previous church that
ended up being a cult. Angela actually spoke about that
one that was the same one that James was in,
and there was a public apology that was going around
of him apologizing to the Crumb community for believing in
(09:38):
this person that was a wrongdoer, And so we started
to investigate him because we're like, wait, there's something here,
But out of respect to the people that were coming
forward to share their stories about Chicina and seven M,
we wanted to make sure that we were focusing our
attention on that big, bad wolf. But note I say
that because there was a lot that was being said
(09:59):
about Chaz and there was a lot of very controversial,
damning things, and it's tricky because you do need to
have proof, you need to be able to coroborate people's stories,
and I think that that is definitely something that's worth exploring,
because we heard from a number of different people before
I even met Ukulia of allegations against him that deserve
(10:21):
to be looked into further. Now that said, we didn't
go down that path, but there's a lot to be
explored there. Every time I've ever heard about Kendra, everyone
always talks about how kind she is, how funny, and
how sweet, and majority like a larger percentage is how
much of a good person that she is. She's incredibly
(10:41):
talented dancer, So you can also see the two very
different approaches on their YouTube channels. Hers is this sweet
talk show she has Miranda on and it just is
them trying to be playful and address certain things, but
more in a comedic way. It is a bit performative,
(11:01):
in my opinion. But they talk about dying to themselves
and they show this old photo of themselves, which again
allegedly that photo is from a time that they were
in Chakina. So it's a little odd to say, oh,
look at our old selves, we died to them. Just
two different approaches. And I think part of talking about
ted Eyes is for me feeling a responsibility almost.
Speaker 4 (11:26):
For Kendra is just like it hurts my heart for her.
Speaker 3 (11:30):
I agree, because in Chicina Kendra and I had spent
a lot of time together. I didn't know her prior
to Shakaina, and we do not speak anymore now. And
I just feel so bad. I really do. I feel bad.
I feel sorry. I feel as though there are certain
things that have been like put in her face almost
and it's just like, gosh, I wish you could see it,
(11:50):
because you deserve so much more. There's so much that
has been taken away from you. And I had told
her in a text message like there are people who
are lying to your face. When I left Chakina, I
told her, if you want to have a conversation, like,
let's talk.
Speaker 4 (12:04):
If not, I understand.
Speaker 3 (12:06):
And I hadn't heard from her until things had come
out about Chuz, which I think every few months or
so something will come out about her husband, and it
was like she had made me public enemy number one,
because I think she had just felt like I was
attacking her husband and making baseless claims, even though, like you,
there are so many stories out there that have been
circulating four years about this man, and it's just like,
(12:30):
how many stories does there need to be until we
finally think, okay, maybe there's some merit to this for.
Speaker 2 (12:36):
A little more context too. So, as I mentioned, we
had spoken to a lot of people and ultimately decided
not to go down that path, but we do and
did have some people that we spoke to that shared
with us text exchange dms that were coming from Tied Eyes,
and that was exactly what you were saying. It was
(12:57):
just very persistent. And it's in a way that as
we're reading through these this person is clearly uncomfortable. So
we are actually going to bring her onto the podcast
a little bit later, because the whole point of this
is to be able to create a safe space and
a platform for people to share their own experiences and
instead of us talking about it, we want them to
(13:17):
be able to use their voice.
Speaker 3 (13:19):
Yes, absolutely, And on reading those messages, which we will
get into a little bit more, I found them to
be extremely inappropriate, especially considering his position in the community.
But I think even going back a little bit into
like Crump as a whole and the role that Chez
has played in Crump and this new creation of Crump, Inc.
(13:42):
And how that rubbed a lot of people the wrong
way in the community because they felt as though Chez
was altering the history of Crump, creating his own narrative
on Crump, and just selling out the art as a
whole to some other man because they had into it
and saw that Crump Inc. Was owned by not only
(14:03):
Chez but also Robert am I correct. Was that on
the paperwork?
Speaker 2 (14:07):
Yeah, there's some documents out there, but the accounts had
put it out there. When that happened, I remember the
community being a bit upset. That's why they were made
aware of it. But what do you think like motivated
Chez to create Crump, Inc. And like, do you think
that was maybe a Robert thing of like how to
monetize this?
Speaker 3 (14:26):
Yeah, I think it was a collaborative if I had
to guess.
Speaker 4 (14:30):
Actually, I was there at.
Speaker 3 (14:32):
A dinner party when Robert talked about this with Chez,
because Chez was talking about how in the past people
have taken advantage of Crump and since they didn't know
anything about business, they didn't know how to gain any
ownership or go back and collect earnings that were rightfully theirs,
and so I remember Robert saying that they were going
to start a whole new thing. I think their big
(14:53):
idea was to create like a Crump school. That was
their big dream to do one of these days. So
I believe that Crump Inc. Could be the beginning of
that potential venture. But I think it was to gain
some sort of ownership over the Crump name and an
attempt at controlling the narrative within the Crump community, which
(15:15):
is really difficult. And I think just because of how
widespread Crump is. It's like a worldwide art that is
celebrated in multiple different countries, which I didn't notice until
I started leaning more into the Crump community. I believe
it rubbed a lot of people the wrong way because
it shouldn't be controlled by one story, because it was
created by such a wide group of people and such
(15:37):
a wide range of people. It's very alarming. After the break,
we continue our conversation. This is forgive me for I
have followed. We'll be right back.
Speaker 2 (15:52):
Welcome back to forgive me for I have followed. Now
back to our conversation. So you came into Chicaina a
little bit later. All the dancers that we talk about
were already there. What was that like, did Kevin have
a relationship with Eyes from the past? Like, what was
that like coming in meeting Ko? You said you hadn't
(16:14):
known her beforehand. Can you just kind of take us
back and bring us back into that time of when
you guys all met and started hanging out?
Speaker 4 (16:20):
Really? Yeah, absolutely so.
Speaker 3 (16:22):
Prior to Shakaina, Kevin had relationships with all of the
dancers in there. They either are friends or war friends,
or he had known them for a number.
Speaker 4 (16:31):
Of years, particularly with Chez.
Speaker 3 (16:33):
I know that Kevin and Chez had always had like
off and on type of friendship.
Speaker 4 (16:38):
I know that they had a falling out.
Speaker 3 (16:41):
There were multiple reasons why, but I know there was
one big reason as far as like Kevin wanted to
be on a TV show, or he would just do
something for Kevin's own personal career that Chess didn't like
or agree with and that had caused falling out in
the past.
Speaker 4 (16:58):
They would fall out.
Speaker 3 (16:59):
They would, you know, for the power of community, let's
just let's just bury it and be friends again, and
for the for the good of Crump, let's just put
aside our differences. And I think when we had joined Chakaina,
they were at a moment where they were cordial, but
they weren't like friends in the way that they used
to be through Chikina. I think that friendship developed more
because we're all going to the same church. We're all
(17:19):
working on the same content, like we are, you know,
banding together, and you know, that relationship was able to
thrive again because they were all on the same business page.
I think a lot of the concept of like community
with dance in general or CRUMP was kind of pushed
aside for the Chakaina community, for the seven m community.
(17:40):
And now that we have left, I found that this
battle that we're facing with the dancers that are still there,
it just feels like, this isn't you trying to stand
up for your community. This is you trying to stand
up for Chakaina, Robert and the things you're being taught.
Speaker 2 (17:57):
Yeah, which, again, as I'm watching these videos that ty
Diys has put out, there's so much in it that
like breaks my heart but also just feels like he's
regurgitating teachings.
Speaker 4 (18:11):
Right.
Speaker 2 (18:11):
You talked about, you know, being at that dinner and
them trying to monetize Crump and maybe turn it into
a school, and it just brought me back to the
sermon that we heard and Robert was expressing how he
and again this is me paraphrasing, but it's him expressing
how he feels attacked.
Speaker 4 (18:30):
But that's okay because he's going to monetize this. He's
going to monetize this moment.
Speaker 2 (18:35):
This is post learning that there was a documentary in development,
and you know he talks about it feels like he's like,
how committed are you to me? And in that sermon,
someone received a text message and they referred to Robert
as Robert his name versus what I correct me if
(18:57):
I'm wrong, doc or daw Pastester, and Robert is livid
in this exchange to put it mildly, mildly like just saying, like,
who the hell do you think you are calling me Robert?
If someone called my father by the first name again
I'm paraphrasing, I would slit their throat. This is said
(19:21):
on the pulpit, and you can hear people just yes
and agree and agree, agree an agreement. I think when
he said the slit the throat thing, it kind of
got quiet for a second, but like he's trying to
make sense of this, But it also starts to create
this like warrior, like are you gonna let people talk
about me like that? Are you gonna let them say
my name like that? It starts to feel like how
(19:45):
loyal are you to me? And you know what kind
of cross will you bear to protect me? And I
kind of feel like some of what tight Eyes is
doing is him really just like owning it. He says
it in one of those videos where he's like, if
I'm on the darks side, I'm on the dark side
again not a direct quote. If I'm on the light
(20:05):
side and walking in the light of God, I'm there.
I'm fully I'm fully in it and unapologetically all in.
And I start to see those parallels as I'm like seeing.
Speaker 4 (20:17):
This that it's hard.
Speaker 2 (20:20):
It's hard because I watch those I get frustrated because
I'm like, why is he coming after people like that.
That's not someone that is uniting people. That's not someone
that's walking in the light of God and his teachings.
But then he had gone and put my girl's name
in his mouth. This video that came out a couple
(20:40):
of days ago. He started to talk about Khaliah. Yeah,
do you.
Speaker 4 (20:46):
Want to talk about that? Because I said, what is
going on?
Speaker 1 (20:52):
Oh?
Speaker 2 (20:52):
Sorry, the hoops are coming off for Bob and Fro
over here? What's happening?
Speaker 4 (20:57):
Don't mess with Bob and fro.
Speaker 3 (21:00):
He had gone on a rampage talking about you know,
oh the video you mentioned before, as far as like
the Swamp files, the Crump community. He wants to purge
and cleanse the Crump community. And so I would assume, like, okay,
so you are directly speaking to the Crump community. So
then for you to turn around and then mention me
(21:20):
and on like a side video to mention me and
other podcasters that like, yes, I'm Crump community adjacent, but
I don't Crump. I'm not a leader within that community.
I kind of have little to do with this conversation
that you're having as a whole.
Speaker 1 (21:36):
Now.
Speaker 3 (21:37):
The video that he had spoken about me was mentioning
from my perspective, women who are speaking out against inappropriate
actions of him and possibly other men. So I know,
based on like experiences and history, that when a man
is accused of doing something, either some sort of sectual
(22:00):
assaults or domestic violence, their go to is to try
to discredit the person who is ringing.
Speaker 4 (22:05):
The alarm bells.
Speaker 3 (22:07):
And so for me, I was just like, Okay, the
reason why you're directing this at me is because it
feels like there's almost a fear there that if the
alarms that are being rang are taken seriously, you know,
it is absolutely bad for you and your brand. But
beyond that, let's take a look at the actions that
were happening, the stories that were being told, and see
(22:28):
if this is something that we would even want within
our communities. I felt like, Okay, I'm doing something right
because of the way that I'm seeing you respond, which
reminded me of when I decided to leave Chakaina. Part
of that, like I had already built up, like Okay,
I don't like how I'm being treated. I don't like
where these things are going. I feel like I'm being
lied to. And then seeing how Robert reacted to the
(22:51):
accusations made me go, aha, that is not how.
Speaker 4 (22:55):
An innocent person reacts.
Speaker 3 (22:58):
And so watching this video with che I was like,
that is not how an innocent person reacts.
Speaker 4 (23:04):
Yep, It's like part of me almost.
Speaker 3 (23:07):
Feels bad because I feel like Chess was groomed from
a younger age, from people who parade as pastors to
take advantage of communities, because, like you mentioned, Chess was
part of a cult like environment before when he was
younger that We've had people on our podcast speak about
their experiences there and how inappropriate and just devastating that
(23:32):
it was to them personally and to that community. And
so to see, like we said, Chez had made an
apology video, I'm so sorry.
Speaker 4 (23:39):
I should never follow that man.
Speaker 3 (23:40):
And then to fall into something like Chicina and seven M,
where I have personally experienced devastation. I have seen the
way it has negatively impacted a community. I've seen the
way that it has preyed on monetarily, emotionally, physically, the
people that are a part of it. I'm like, I
feel bad that you have been groomed from a young
age to think that this is how you live. However,
(24:02):
at a certain point you have to take responsibility for
your actions. You are acting just like these men, and
there are stories that corroborate that you are doing these
inappropriate things.
Speaker 2 (24:14):
We talked a little bit about that. We've kind of
referenced it a few times after we had our episode
with Doctor Gideon is like, when does the victim become
the perpetrator?
Speaker 4 (24:23):
Right?
Speaker 2 (24:23):
And I've thought a lot about tight Eyes with that. Unfortunately,
my personal opinion is tight Eyes did not become the
perpetrator from a victim in Chicaina. I think that happened
well before those years, and he took that into Chakaina.
I don't know his personal past, and I'm not going
to speak on that, but yeah, I do want to ask, like,
(24:47):
are you seeing a divide between personal loyalty and public
accountability within the dance community since all of these videos
been coming out and him calling really a amazing dancers
out in the community.
Speaker 3 (25:03):
Right, And not only are they amazing dancers, they've also
done so much positive change within their community. So he
mentions people like Beast or like Kevin and Beast has
been able to grow this amazing platform for people within
LA to learn Crump and to be safe when they
want to go and learn Crump in LA. And so,
(25:24):
like you said that conflict between like personal loyalty and
public accountability, I think he is wanting the people who
are his fans, who believe that he is an incredible
talent that they don't want to I guess lose in
a way. I think Chess does play on that a lot,
(25:44):
as far as like, if you think I'm so great,
you should follow my teachings and not follow other people's teachings.
And I think it's just really sad when there is
a call for accountability from the community that he is
serving and for him to say, well, if you don't
agree with my way, you're not doing it correct. And
it's like, I don't think there's a place for loyalty
(26:08):
when it comes to something that is actively harming people.
I can support you, I can want you to do better,
but I'm not going to be loyal to something that
is illegal or just causing harm.
Speaker 1 (26:19):
Right.
Speaker 2 (26:20):
Do you think that it has anything to do with
the fact that there's a thought that people are monetizing
on Crump that he's not able to participate in of
why he's calling out these particular people because from my again,
I'm not in the community. I'm just you know, I'm
following everyone. I actually had the pleasure of meeting Beast
and he's just the nicest guy ever. And so do
(26:42):
you think that maybe it's this idea that he's seemingly
in this bubble and he's seeing this whole community, a
community that he helped build, flourishing and move on, and
he's not a part of it. Like, so this is
his way of like continuing to make his dam Yeah,
I mean, I.
Speaker 3 (27:01):
Think while I believe that the group is very money hungry,
as most of the services that we were a part
of were about money, and you know, even in the
videos he mentions money, wanting twenty thousand dollars to dance
or whatever the case is.
Speaker 4 (27:16):
I don't believe this is a money motivation.
Speaker 3 (27:18):
I truly believe this is an act to get control
of a narrative because of the truths that are being
spoken and the damages that Ches may feel is happening
to his reputation.
Speaker 4 (27:31):
And I think they are losing out on money.
Speaker 3 (27:33):
But I think that it is necessary because of the crimes,
the atrocities, where the money is going, what the money
is supporting, Like, there's a reason why the finances are
being pulled away because it's not supporting something that is helpful,
it's supporting something that is harmful and hurtful. I think
it's just like they are backed into a corner and
(27:53):
this is their way of trying to be.
Speaker 4 (27:55):
Like everyone else is lying. My way is correct.
Speaker 3 (27:58):
This is how we're supposed to to live, trying to
absolve themselves of accountability for their actions.
Speaker 2 (28:07):
When we returned the conclusion of our conversation, this is
forgive me for I have followed.
Speaker 3 (28:17):
Welcome back to forgive me for I have followed. Here
is the conclusion of our conversation.
Speaker 2 (28:24):
We mentioned that we had someone share dms from Chez
and those were shared initially because of that kind of
path we were looking into, because again we were hearing
so much about tied eyes and seemingly wrongdoings, and so
this person shared these messages with us, and instead of
(28:44):
us sharing those with you, which she was so kind
to say that we could, I felt like, maybe it's
better for us to have a conversation with her Kalia,
so we can actually understand better of how she met
Tied Eyes and how the relationship through DM developed and
what that was like for her, because it did seemingly
(29:04):
get to a place where she was very uncomfortable and
clearly just like cut it off because I felt like
there was some inappropriate intentions. So thank you so much
for joining us and being a part of sharing your
experience and story.
Speaker 1 (29:21):
Of course, again happy to help in any way. I
know he's affected a lot of people, so if this
is going to help, I definitely want to share.
Speaker 4 (29:29):
Absolutely appreciate that.
Speaker 3 (29:31):
Yeah, I'm so sorry for the experiences that you've gone
through with him and just through the beginning of your
dance career. I know a lot of these things happening
early on can really affect the way that you move
forward within this environment. But again, echoing what Jessica said,
thank you for being on and sharing with us.
Speaker 4 (29:50):
So I'm just curious to know. So how did you
and Chaz meet.
Speaker 1 (29:55):
So I was on this dance company called Academy of Villains,
and our directors were beginning to become involved with the
Crump community, so that entailed having Tight Eyes at the time.
Baby tight has so many other people come on and
they would have them teach classes and stuff to us.
So we were having a little thing at our studio
(30:18):
where a bunch of choreographers came to teach, and he
was one of them, so we would have to share
the flyers and posters and tag all the choreographers. And
I think that was the first time we had ever
interacted after his class, thanking him obviously for teaching, and
he was just a figure that we really had to
respect since he had that relationship with our directors CJ
(30:43):
and Crystal Phoenix and Farside, who were a part of
Academy of Villains. He was known as one of like
the creators of crump, so to us he was like
a god at the time, and at the time, I
was like eighteen or nineteen years old. But after the class,
we kind of thanked him and it wasn't too much
conversation until he responded to me tagging him in the
(31:03):
post thanking me for taking his class, and I just
thanked him obviously, said it was out of my comfort
zone because I didn't do too much crumping before or
being on that company, and the conversation just kind of
went from there. And he would consistently be dming me,
and it started off a little innocent, and he would
just thank me for not being creeped out having a
(31:25):
man like him messaging me, because obviously I was trying
to be respectful, and then it just started turning into
an uncomfortable situation.
Speaker 4 (31:35):
When did that shift happen?
Speaker 2 (31:37):
Was there like a very clear indication for you of
when casually communicating turned into him messaging a lot more
and that you started to feel uncomfortable.
Speaker 1 (31:48):
Yes, Our interactions began in June of twenty eighteen, towards
the middle of that month, and it started off again innocent,
of him thanking me for coming, me thinking him for teaching,
saying it was out of my comfort zone, him letting
me know to keep going obviously, and right then and there,
(32:08):
now that I'm seeing he said, I feel more comfortable
speaking to you now. Sorry if I came off weird before,
but you're cool, because I think the second interaction we had,
he was kind of caught off guard and didn't really
respond so well, and I just let him know, like,
don't worry about it. And then it was late, so
he's like, you should be asleep, and that's when I
think right away the conversation started to shift and then
(32:31):
he started just asking questions about me, about where I'm
originally from, how long I've been living here, and then
the conversation just automatically went to like him just prying
and asking more questions about myself and saying that I'm short,
but I have a mature look. And it was pretty
much right away, and we continued talking until February seventh
(32:53):
of twenty nineteen was the last time he messaged me.
And then at that point, with all the previous conversations
and things that he had said, I was just too
uncomfortable to answer.
Speaker 3 (33:05):
I kind of want to go back to the beginning
of the conversation. You said it was twenty eighteen. Yes,
considering that he was brought into a dance company with
a lot of young people who look up to him,
and to me, it's just capitalizing on that position of
power to gain something sexually is extremely inappropriate. Thank you
(33:27):
for sharing these messages because I find them to be
very insightful about the kind of person that he is.
And you know, to this day, he's still being booked
on workshops in different places where I'm like, gosh, like
I hope he is not continuing to repeat patterns that
we have absolute proof of because we're here, we're having
this conversation with you, and thank you so much for
(33:48):
being brave enough to share it, because I think the
power that a lot of men have is in the
silence of people.
Speaker 1 (33:55):
And back then, looking back at it all, I had
told a few of my friends who were also in
the company I would show them some of the messages.
And that's around the time when he wanted to try
to hang out with me and in his terms, show
me what a real man is. And he said those words,
I have the messages, and at the time, the girls
(34:18):
my age, they were like encouraging it because of the
person that he was. To us at the time, like
he's a legend, Like just go test it out, see,
like this is crazy, And to them it was like
an exciting thing. And I at the time hadn't even
been in a relationship before. I've never had a boyfriend,
and I had like disclosed that to him as well,
(34:41):
because he was very persistent on meeting with me, and
I kept trying to show my disinterest respectfully, and it
came to a point where he was like, do you
just not like, guys, is that what it is? So
he kind of switched that around on me, causing me
to try to defend myself and just be like, no,
it's not that. I've just never been in a relationship.
(35:02):
So he knew that as well, and he was just
still very persistent with wanting to meet with me and
would say things like I can give you a booty
rub because of all that you have back there and
things like that, and when I brought it up later
about how that made me like uncomfortable or that he
had mentioned that, he's like, I didn't mean it unless
(35:25):
you were thinking about it, and would say things like that.
Speaker 2 (35:29):
Did you ever meet up with him privately? If you
don't mind me asking? I did not, thankfully. There was
one point where I was considering it heavily because of
his persistence and people in my ear just saying just
go once, see how it is. And it didn't help
that every time he wanted to meet.
Speaker 1 (35:48):
Late at night and he had invited me another time
to a function with all of his friends and things
like that, and I think that was the one time
I was debating ongoing and then again I just had
that gut feeling that I wouldn't be comfortable, so I
declined the offer. But there was only one time that
(36:08):
I almost considered going, and I'm thankful that I haven't
due to things that I've also heard about him later
on through other people and just thinking back, I feel
like that situation could have taken a turn for the worst.
So I'm glad that I didn't.
Speaker 4 (36:28):
Very glad you didn't either.
Speaker 3 (36:30):
So you had mentioned that you had met Chez because
he was brought in through Academy of Villains, and I
think the directors were Farside and Crystal.
Speaker 1 (36:39):
Yes, and she was also known as Phoenix in the
dance community.
Speaker 4 (36:42):
I've heard a bit about Academy of Villains.
Speaker 3 (36:44):
I have some friends who were a part of the
dance company, and to me, it was really concerning that
that was where you were introduced to this individual, considering
that there were other things going on within Academy of
Villains that had complaints as well.
Speaker 4 (37:00):
What was your time like there, just briefly overview.
Speaker 1 (37:03):
I joined the company when I was eighteen on the
youth team. It was very quick. I had just gone
in as like a guest to test out the waters,
and right off the bat they were training for a
World of Dance competition and ended up formatting me into
that piece, and by the end of that day they
were like, are you doing it or not? You are
(37:26):
center now in this piece. You need to let us
know right away. And I think that was the beginning
of a very manipulative experience being on that company for
the next three years. It was very demanding. I had
to choose between college and there, and they are very
much don't care about what life you have. Upside, it
(37:48):
was just you have to be at rehearsal. This is
your commitment. You owe it to us because we're doing
all these things for you. So I said I was
going to take a year off and I never ended
up going back to college because as just the expectations
that they had, but they don't exist anymore because they
got called out in twenty twenty going down on physical,
(38:08):
sexual and mental abuse. Wow, And in a way it
was looking back at it very cult like and just
the hole that they had on us was very scary,
like even leaving, they would manipulate you into staying. I
tried to leave three times, and if you do leave,
(38:29):
you'd get in a way blacklisted. So no one's allowed
to talk to you. They talk about you there and
use you as an example about how you weren't able
to handle it, and it was a very incredibly toxic environment.
And it's just a lot to unpack.
Speaker 3 (38:46):
It almost lights my body on fire because it's just
so reminiscent of my days when I was in seven
M and Chicina, and just how prevalent these groups are
and things that are not always necessarily religious, but there's
still utilizing the same practices of control and manipulation, and
oh man, I'm so sorry.
Speaker 2 (39:06):
This series is meant to provide a space to look
into investigating exposing high control groups, and like Leah saying,
it's not always in a religious environment. It's not always
you know, masked in a church, so high controlled groups
can be in dance companies and communities. So maybe we
(39:28):
can have you back to explore more of that and
hear more about your experience.
Speaker 1 (39:34):
Of course, Yeah, thank you for having me and listening
and wanting to look into these things, because it's been
swept under the rug for so long, and I'm sure
for a lot of other people who've had it much worse.
Speaker 2 (39:56):
It's not easy to reference back to a time that
you felt really vulnerable and that you felt uncomfortable, and
I would imagine that there's the concern of consequences in backlash.
If you're speaking against people that are active in the
community today, it's your livelihood, it's your profession.
Speaker 3 (40:14):
These are people who are in a big public light,
that have a lot of eyes on them, and so
situations like this, it can be harder for victims to
come forward when their alleged perpetrator is in a position
of power.
Speaker 4 (40:27):
It's easier for the person in the position.
Speaker 3 (40:29):
Of power to discredit the people who are coming out
and saying their truth and their experience and their story.
And think all of this evidence and proof that Chez
swears that we don't have, you know.
Speaker 4 (40:43):
Things are coming to lights.
Speaker 3 (40:46):
It was mentioned how twenty twenty was a big revealing
of predatory practices within the dance community.
Speaker 4 (40:51):
We're seeing a resurgence of.
Speaker 3 (40:52):
That this year in twenty twenty five, of the truth
being brought out into the light.
Speaker 2 (40:57):
We hope this conversation gave you new perspectives on the
tension between personal beliefs, accountability, and the evolution of dance culture.
Be sure to follow us for more thought provoking discussions
and as always thank you for tuning in to Forgive
Me For I Have Followed.
Speaker 3 (41:12):
Forgive Me For I Have Followed is a production from
wv Sound, Dirty Robert and iHeartMedia's Michael Tore podcast Network,
hosted by me Khalia Gray and me Jessicassavetto. Forgive Me
For I Have Followed is produced by Aaron Burlson and
Sophie Spencer Zavos.
Speaker 2 (41:27):
Our executive producers are Khalia Gray, myself, Wilmar Balderama, Leo
Klam and Aaron Burlison at wv Sound.
Speaker 3 (41:34):
This episode was edited by Sean Tracy and features original
music by Madison Davenport and Halo Boy. For more podcasts
from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever
you listen to your favorite shows.
Speaker 4 (41:46):
See you next week, See you next week,
He was known as one of the creators of Crump.
So to us, he was like a gone at the time,
and he would consistently be dming me. That's around the
time when he wanted to try to hang out with
me and in his terms, show me what a real
man is. And then it just started turning into an
uncomfortable situation.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
Welcome back to forgive me for I have followed. I'm
jessicasiveto executive producer of the Netflix series Dancing for the
Devil the Seven M TikTok Cult. This documentary series explored
the story of Robert Shin, the La based Chakaina Church
and Seven M Films. Shin founded Chakaina Church over two
decades ago before establishing Seven M Films and is named
in a civil lawsuit alleging abuse and cult like behavior.
Speaker 3 (00:56):
And I'm Clia Gray, former member of Chicina Church and
Seven M Films.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
In this episode, we dive deep into the recent controversies
surrounding Crump. Dancer Chesaret tied Eyes willis from the creation
of Crump, Inc. Even going as far as to call
himself President Crump, and the rift it's caused within the
community to his unwavering defense of Robert Schen and Chicaina
Church despite numerous allegations. We explore the complex layers of loyalty, power,
(01:22):
and division at play.
Speaker 3 (01:24):
We also examine how Chez, once a victim of the
very structures he now defends, may have shifted from victim
to a lleged perpetrator in his controversial actions. With a
focus on his public confrontations, including the challenge to Kevin,
we reflect on how these dynamics reshape the Crump movement
and what this means for its future. And now our
conversation about tide Eyes.
Speaker 2 (01:57):
Happy New Year, everyone, welcome to forgive me for I
have followed before we go into catching you all up
of what's been happening, because there was a lot that
happened over the break, so much, so much. Do want
to just give our heartfelt condolences to people that have
lost their homes, family members in the fires, the palisades eaten,
(02:21):
and just the surrounding areas in California. Our hearts are
with everyone for their loss. Please continue to volunteer. It
doesn't stop after just the first few weeks. So I
bring that up because the fire did hit very close
to home. Someone from the documentary. Someone that we've spoken
a lot about. Her and her family were evacuated in
(02:41):
a very scary time. That's her story to tell. But
I was checking in regularly because I was very concerned.
Speaker 3 (02:50):
Absolutely, and I think that speaks to our slow start
as well to the year just being mindful of all
the changes both locally and far that have been going
going on.
Speaker 4 (03:00):
Absolutely well.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
As we said, we are going to catch you up
on some of the things that happened over the holiday.
I feel like there was a lot of things popping up.
There were videos popping up, there were conversations, there were accounts.
There's exciting new podcasts that are coming. So just to
catch you guys up first and foremost, the Lease Sisters
are officially starting their podcast, which I'm so incredibly excited
(03:27):
to listen to. For those that don't know who the
Lease Sisters are, they were in Chicina what we call
One point zero. They were in the documentary and shared
their incredible stories. Alisha actually got out in real time
while we were filming. They have accounts on Instagram so
you can follow them. They're giving updates. Alisha's actually doing
a countdown to the trial, and I know that their
(03:48):
podcast is going to be talking a lot about that.
Speaker 4 (03:50):
But let me just.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
Say, Alisha's Instagram is fire. Yes, she is not holding back,
and it's so incredibly powerful and it just really speaks
to her her strengthness.
Speaker 3 (04:01):
And even though I'm part of the trial, I've been
tuned into Alicia's countdown because she is not holding back
and I'm here for it. I'm in full support of it,
and neither am I.
Speaker 2 (04:10):
She's putting facts in those stories about experiences throughout her
twenty something years in Chicaina. So gloves are coming off,
and so that takes us to some of the other
things that were happening over the holiday.
Speaker 4 (04:26):
Tied Ice ted Ice started.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
A new crump ink YouTube account. Specifically, he has a
series It's President Crump with his first video titled Draining
the Swamp and Reviving the Movement. So in that video, obviously, Clia,
(04:49):
tell me how you were feeling about it, because this one,
in particular, calls out your husband, calls out Kevin. What
was going on in the household? How did that all feel?
Because I did see it because Kevin had reposted it.
Speaker 3 (05:03):
So I mean it was interesting because for us it
sort of came out of nowhere like for people who
don't know. To the best of our knowledge, Chess is
a part of Chokina. He was there when we were
a part of it, and he was there when we left.
So I think for the most part, at least between
the dancers, there had been very little to no communication.
(05:24):
So when the video came out, it was kind of
like a shocker as far as Chess directing it to Kevin,
and while he mentioned a few other dancers, I think
he kind of leaned the hardest into Kevin, you know,
very much like name calling and like, I don't know,
I think it was shocking to hear the video, but
I understood the motivations behind. So the best of my knowledge,
why Chess had put a video out because I know
(05:47):
he and you know the Seven M and Chkina group,
I think they are feeling attacked in a way, so
that was their means to defend their actions, defend their choices.
And I think that's something that Chess himself has said
was people have been talking so much mess about me
and my family. This is my first time actually responding
to the drama. In his mind, it's hard because it's
(06:11):
like this was not an attack on your character. This
was not an attack on your beliefs as far as
Christianity goes. I think it was just us giving our
experiences and telling our truth to.
Speaker 4 (06:25):
The public, you know, the saying like a hit doggle holler.
Speaker 3 (06:28):
I think that was the feeling that we felt when
we saw these videos, as far as like, you're trying
to fiercely defend something that the vast majority of us
see as problematic, potentially dangerous, and harmful to the community.
So the series of videos that he's come out like,
I see it as a cry for help, because it's like,
you guys are absolutely backed into a corner, as you
(06:50):
should be, because these things have been harming a community,
whether you are a willing participant of it or not.
Speaker 4 (06:57):
That's what it is doing. It is causing harm for sure.
Speaker 2 (07:00):
And so I think to go back for those that
are not familiar with Chez tied Is as willis, he
is one of the creators of.
Speaker 4 (07:08):
Crump, which has been debated.
Speaker 3 (07:09):
That's a very hot topic within the Crump community, which.
Speaker 2 (07:12):
Is where my hesitation to continue was. But he is
also a or was a member of seven m in Choicina,
and I think just for the question I am going
to read something because I do think it just is
in context. But one of the comments on that first
video was from someone that says, I think tied Is'
(07:34):
is one of the best answers in the world. I'm
a true fan since the beginning. And with that said,
I hope you're not in a cult, brother, I pray
that you find Christ, the real Jesus and not that
cult leader from Chakaina. He's preaching the word wrong and
giving the real Christians a bad look. I love you, bro, godspeed,
which I think is a very beautiful sentiment. Absolutely, tied
I's actually responded to that message that says, don't believe
(07:58):
everything you hear on streaming platforms and you will be
all right. And you don't go to Chakaina, so you
don't know the words that's preached. So it gives me
some sort of indication that he still is in Chakaina. Absolutely,
that's my assumption based on the comment.
Speaker 3 (08:15):
I think the reason why I also strongly believe he
is still a part of it is something that I
heard out of Chesz's mouth was this is the hill
I'm going to die on. So despite any new evidence,
despite any revealing of things, that are problematic. That is,
according to him, the hill that he wants to die on.
Speaker 2 (08:33):
And also, you know, we did see that video come
out that Kendra also known as Ko as kind of
this new YouTube series as well Kendra as his wife.
She's doing like a little talk show. Her first guest
was Miranda and in that they talk about did you
not see this? I did not see this? Oh oh okay,
she's got this kind of new talk show a thing
(08:54):
that they're doing. She brings on Miranda and in that
they're just kind of answering questions. And here's the thing,
as we're going to go into talking about Tied Eyes. Unfortunately,
throughout this process, I haven't heard a whole lot of
good things about this man. So when we first were
made aware of seven M and Chokaina and we started
to investigate this, we actually started to look a lot
(09:16):
more into Tight Eyes because we're hearing a lot about
this person, and not in a good way. We were
hearing about how he was in a previous church that
ended up being a cult. Angela actually spoke about that
one that was the same one that James was in,
and there was a public apology that was going around
of him apologizing to the Crumb community for believing in
(09:38):
this person that was a wrongdoer, And so we started
to investigate him because we're like, wait, there's something here,
But out of respect to the people that were coming
forward to share their stories about Chicina and seven M,
we wanted to make sure that we were focusing our
attention on that big, bad wolf. But note I say
that because there was a lot that was being said
(09:59):
about Chaz and there was a lot of very controversial,
damning things, and it's tricky because you do need to
have proof, you need to be able to coroborate people's stories,
and I think that that is definitely something that's worth exploring,
because we heard from a number of different people before
I even met Ukulia of allegations against him that deserve
(10:21):
to be looked into further. Now that said, we didn't
go down that path, but there's a lot to be
explored there. Every time I've ever heard about Kendra, everyone
always talks about how kind she is, how funny, and
how sweet, and majority like a larger percentage is how
much of a good person that she is. She's incredibly
(10:41):
talented dancer, So you can also see the two very
different approaches on their YouTube channels. Hers is this sweet
talk show she has Miranda on and it just is
them trying to be playful and address certain things, but
more in a comedic way. It is a bit performative,
(11:01):
in my opinion. But they talk about dying to themselves
and they show this old photo of themselves, which again
allegedly that photo is from a time that they were
in Chakina. So it's a little odd to say, oh,
look at our old selves, we died to them. Just
two different approaches. And I think part of talking about
ted Eyes is for me feeling a responsibility almost.
Speaker 4 (11:26):
For Kendra is just like it hurts my heart for her.
Speaker 3 (11:30):
I agree, because in Chicina Kendra and I had spent
a lot of time together. I didn't know her prior
to Shakaina, and we do not speak anymore now. And
I just feel so bad. I really do. I feel bad.
I feel sorry. I feel as though there are certain
things that have been like put in her face almost
and it's just like, gosh, I wish you could see it,
(11:50):
because you deserve so much more. There's so much that
has been taken away from you. And I had told
her in a text message like there are people who
are lying to your face. When I left Chakina, I
told her, if you want to have a conversation, like,
let's talk.
Speaker 4 (12:04):
If not, I understand.
Speaker 3 (12:06):
And I hadn't heard from her until things had come
out about Chuz, which I think every few months or
so something will come out about her husband, and it
was like she had made me public enemy number one,
because I think she had just felt like I was
attacking her husband and making baseless claims, even though, like you,
there are so many stories out there that have been
circulating four years about this man, and it's just like,
(12:30):
how many stories does there need to be until we
finally think, okay, maybe there's some merit to this for.
Speaker 2 (12:36):
A little more context too. So, as I mentioned, we
had spoken to a lot of people and ultimately decided
not to go down that path, but we do and
did have some people that we spoke to that shared
with us text exchange dms that were coming from Tied Eyes,
and that was exactly what you were saying. It was
(12:57):
just very persistent. And it's in a way that as
we're reading through these this person is clearly uncomfortable. So
we are actually going to bring her onto the podcast
a little bit later, because the whole point of this
is to be able to create a safe space and
a platform for people to share their own experiences and
instead of us talking about it, we want them to
(13:17):
be able to use their voice.
Speaker 3 (13:19):
Yes, absolutely, And on reading those messages, which we will
get into a little bit more, I found them to
be extremely inappropriate, especially considering his position in the community.
But I think even going back a little bit into
like Crump as a whole and the role that Chez
has played in Crump and this new creation of Crump, Inc.
(13:42):
And how that rubbed a lot of people the wrong
way in the community because they felt as though Chez
was altering the history of Crump, creating his own narrative
on Crump, and just selling out the art as a
whole to some other man because they had into it
and saw that Crump Inc. Was owned by not only
(14:03):
Chez but also Robert am I correct. Was that on
the paperwork?
Speaker 2 (14:07):
Yeah, there's some documents out there, but the accounts had
put it out there. When that happened, I remember the
community being a bit upset. That's why they were made
aware of it. But what do you think like motivated
Chez to create Crump, Inc. And like, do you think
that was maybe a Robert thing of like how to
monetize this?
Speaker 3 (14:26):
Yeah, I think it was a collaborative if I had
to guess.
Speaker 4 (14:30):
Actually, I was there at.
Speaker 3 (14:32):
A dinner party when Robert talked about this with Chez,
because Chez was talking about how in the past people
have taken advantage of Crump and since they didn't know
anything about business, they didn't know how to gain any
ownership or go back and collect earnings that were rightfully theirs,
and so I remember Robert saying that they were going
to start a whole new thing. I think their big
(14:53):
idea was to create like a Crump school. That was
their big dream to do one of these days. So
I believe that Crump Inc. Could be the beginning of
that potential venture. But I think it was to gain
some sort of ownership over the Crump name and an
attempt at controlling the narrative within the Crump community, which
(15:15):
is really difficult. And I think just because of how
widespread Crump is. It's like a worldwide art that is
celebrated in multiple different countries, which I didn't notice until
I started leaning more into the Crump community. I believe
it rubbed a lot of people the wrong way because
it shouldn't be controlled by one story, because it was
created by such a wide group of people and such
(15:37):
a wide range of people. It's very alarming. After the break,
we continue our conversation. This is forgive me for I
have followed. We'll be right back.
Speaker 2 (15:52):
Welcome back to forgive me for I have followed. Now
back to our conversation. So you came into Chicaina a
little bit later. All the dancers that we talk about
were already there. What was that like, did Kevin have
a relationship with Eyes from the past? Like, what was
that like coming in meeting Ko? You said you hadn't
(16:14):
known her beforehand. Can you just kind of take us
back and bring us back into that time of when
you guys all met and started hanging out?
Speaker 4 (16:20):
Really? Yeah, absolutely so.
Speaker 3 (16:22):
Prior to Shakaina, Kevin had relationships with all of the
dancers in there. They either are friends or war friends,
or he had known them for a number.
Speaker 4 (16:31):
Of years, particularly with Chez.
Speaker 3 (16:33):
I know that Kevin and Chez had always had like
off and on type of friendship.
Speaker 4 (16:38):
I know that they had a falling out.
Speaker 3 (16:41):
There were multiple reasons why, but I know there was
one big reason as far as like Kevin wanted to
be on a TV show, or he would just do
something for Kevin's own personal career that Chess didn't like
or agree with and that had caused falling out in
the past.
Speaker 4 (16:58):
They would fall out.
Speaker 3 (16:59):
They would, you know, for the power of community, let's
just let's just bury it and be friends again, and
for the for the good of Crump, let's just put
aside our differences. And I think when we had joined Chakaina,
they were at a moment where they were cordial, but
they weren't like friends in the way that they used
to be through Chikina. I think that friendship developed more
because we're all going to the same church. We're all
(17:19):
working on the same content, like we are, you know,
banding together, and you know, that relationship was able to
thrive again because they were all on the same business page.
I think a lot of the concept of like community
with dance in general or CRUMP was kind of pushed
aside for the Chakaina community, for the seven m community.
(17:40):
And now that we have left, I found that this
battle that we're facing with the dancers that are still there,
it just feels like, this isn't you trying to stand
up for your community. This is you trying to stand
up for Chakaina, Robert and the things you're being taught.
Speaker 2 (17:57):
Yeah, which, again, as I'm watching these videos that ty
Diys has put out, there's so much in it that
like breaks my heart but also just feels like he's
regurgitating teachings.
Speaker 4 (18:11):
Right.
Speaker 2 (18:11):
You talked about, you know, being at that dinner and
them trying to monetize Crump and maybe turn it into
a school, and it just brought me back to the
sermon that we heard and Robert was expressing how he
and again this is me paraphrasing, but it's him expressing
how he feels attacked.
Speaker 4 (18:30):
But that's okay because he's going to monetize this. He's
going to monetize this moment.
Speaker 2 (18:35):
This is post learning that there was a documentary in development,
and you know he talks about it feels like he's like,
how committed are you to me? And in that sermon,
someone received a text message and they referred to Robert
as Robert his name versus what I correct me if
(18:57):
I'm wrong, doc or daw Pastester, and Robert is livid
in this exchange to put it mildly, mildly like just saying, like,
who the hell do you think you are calling me Robert?
If someone called my father by the first name again
I'm paraphrasing, I would slit their throat. This is said
(19:21):
on the pulpit, and you can hear people just yes
and agree and agree, agree an agreement. I think when
he said the slit the throat thing, it kind of
got quiet for a second, but like he's trying to
make sense of this, But it also starts to create
this like warrior, like are you gonna let people talk
about me like that? Are you gonna let them say
my name like that? It starts to feel like how
(19:45):
loyal are you to me? And you know what kind
of cross will you bear to protect me? And I
kind of feel like some of what tight Eyes is
doing is him really just like owning it. He says
it in one of those videos where he's like, if
I'm on the darks side, I'm on the dark side
again not a direct quote. If I'm on the light
(20:05):
side and walking in the light of God, I'm there.
I'm fully I'm fully in it and unapologetically all in.
And I start to see those parallels as I'm like seeing.
Speaker 4 (20:17):
This that it's hard.
Speaker 2 (20:20):
It's hard because I watch those I get frustrated because
I'm like, why is he coming after people like that.
That's not someone that is uniting people. That's not someone
that's walking in the light of God and his teachings.
But then he had gone and put my girl's name
in his mouth. This video that came out a couple
(20:40):
of days ago. He started to talk about Khaliah. Yeah,
do you.
Speaker 4 (20:46):
Want to talk about that? Because I said, what is
going on?
Speaker 1 (20:52):
Oh?
Speaker 2 (20:52):
Sorry, the hoops are coming off for Bob and Fro
over here? What's happening?
Speaker 4 (20:57):
Don't mess with Bob and fro.
Speaker 3 (21:00):
He had gone on a rampage talking about you know,
oh the video you mentioned before, as far as like
the Swamp files, the Crump community. He wants to purge
and cleanse the Crump community. And so I would assume, like, okay,
so you are directly speaking to the Crump community. So
then for you to turn around and then mention me
(21:20):
and on like a side video to mention me and
other podcasters that like, yes, I'm Crump community adjacent, but
I don't Crump. I'm not a leader within that community.
I kind of have little to do with this conversation
that you're having as a whole.
Speaker 1 (21:36):
Now.
Speaker 3 (21:37):
The video that he had spoken about me was mentioning
from my perspective, women who are speaking out against inappropriate
actions of him and possibly other men. So I know,
based on like experiences and history, that when a man
is accused of doing something, either some sort of sectual
(22:00):
assaults or domestic violence, their go to is to try
to discredit the person who is ringing.
Speaker 4 (22:05):
The alarm bells.
Speaker 3 (22:07):
And so for me, I was just like, Okay, the
reason why you're directing this at me is because it
feels like there's almost a fear there that if the
alarms that are being rang are taken seriously, you know,
it is absolutely bad for you and your brand. But
beyond that, let's take a look at the actions that
were happening, the stories that were being told, and see
(22:28):
if this is something that we would even want within
our communities. I felt like, Okay, I'm doing something right
because of the way that I'm seeing you respond, which
reminded me of when I decided to leave Chakaina. Part
of that, like I had already built up, like Okay,
I don't like how I'm being treated. I don't like
where these things are going. I feel like I'm being
lied to. And then seeing how Robert reacted to the
(22:51):
accusations made me go, aha, that is not how.
Speaker 4 (22:55):
An innocent person reacts.
Speaker 3 (22:58):
And so watching this video with che I was like,
that is not how an innocent person reacts.
Speaker 4 (23:04):
Yep, It's like part of me almost.
Speaker 3 (23:07):
Feels bad because I feel like Chess was groomed from
a younger age, from people who parade as pastors to
take advantage of communities, because, like you mentioned, Chess was
part of a cult like environment before when he was
younger that We've had people on our podcast speak about
their experiences there and how inappropriate and just devastating that
(23:32):
it was to them personally and to that community. And
so to see, like we said, Chez had made an
apology video, I'm so sorry.
Speaker 4 (23:39):
I should never follow that man.
Speaker 3 (23:40):
And then to fall into something like Chicina and seven M,
where I have personally experienced devastation. I have seen the
way it has negatively impacted a community. I've seen the
way that it has preyed on monetarily, emotionally, physically, the
people that are a part of it. I'm like, I
feel bad that you have been groomed from a young
age to think that this is how you live. However,
(24:02):
at a certain point you have to take responsibility for
your actions. You are acting just like these men, and
there are stories that corroborate that you are doing these
inappropriate things.
Speaker 2 (24:14):
We talked a little bit about that. We've kind of
referenced it a few times after we had our episode
with Doctor Gideon is like, when does the victim become
the perpetrator?
Speaker 4 (24:23):
Right?
Speaker 2 (24:23):
And I've thought a lot about tight Eyes with that. Unfortunately,
my personal opinion is tight Eyes did not become the
perpetrator from a victim in Chicaina. I think that happened
well before those years, and he took that into Chakaina.
I don't know his personal past, and I'm not going
to speak on that, but yeah, I do want to ask, like,
(24:47):
are you seeing a divide between personal loyalty and public
accountability within the dance community since all of these videos
been coming out and him calling really a amazing dancers
out in the community.
Speaker 3 (25:03):
Right, And not only are they amazing dancers, they've also
done so much positive change within their community. So he
mentions people like Beast or like Kevin and Beast has
been able to grow this amazing platform for people within
LA to learn Crump and to be safe when they
want to go and learn Crump in LA. And so,
(25:24):
like you said that conflict between like personal loyalty and
public accountability, I think he is wanting the people who
are his fans, who believe that he is an incredible
talent that they don't want to I guess lose in
a way. I think Chess does play on that a lot,
(25:44):
as far as like, if you think I'm so great,
you should follow my teachings and not follow other people's teachings.
And I think it's just really sad when there is
a call for accountability from the community that he is
serving and for him to say, well, if you don't
agree with my way, you're not doing it correct. And
it's like, I don't think there's a place for loyalty
(26:08):
when it comes to something that is actively harming people.
I can support you, I can want you to do better,
but I'm not going to be loyal to something that
is illegal or just causing harm.
Speaker 1 (26:19):
Right.
Speaker 2 (26:20):
Do you think that it has anything to do with
the fact that there's a thought that people are monetizing
on Crump that he's not able to participate in of
why he's calling out these particular people because from my again,
I'm not in the community. I'm just you know, I'm
following everyone. I actually had the pleasure of meeting Beast
and he's just the nicest guy ever. And so do
(26:42):
you think that maybe it's this idea that he's seemingly
in this bubble and he's seeing this whole community, a
community that he helped build, flourishing and move on, and
he's not a part of it. Like, so this is
his way of like continuing to make his dam Yeah,
I mean, I.
Speaker 3 (27:01):
Think while I believe that the group is very money hungry,
as most of the services that we were a part
of were about money, and you know, even in the
videos he mentions money, wanting twenty thousand dollars to dance
or whatever the case is.
Speaker 4 (27:16):
I don't believe this is a money motivation.
Speaker 3 (27:18):
I truly believe this is an act to get control
of a narrative because of the truths that are being
spoken and the damages that Ches may feel is happening
to his reputation.
Speaker 4 (27:31):
And I think they are losing out on money.
Speaker 3 (27:33):
But I think that it is necessary because of the crimes,
the atrocities, where the money is going, what the money
is supporting, Like, there's a reason why the finances are
being pulled away because it's not supporting something that is helpful,
it's supporting something that is harmful and hurtful. I think
it's just like they are backed into a corner and
(27:53):
this is their way of trying to be.
Speaker 4 (27:55):
Like everyone else is lying. My way is correct.
Speaker 3 (27:58):
This is how we're supposed to to live, trying to
absolve themselves of accountability for their actions.
Speaker 2 (28:07):
When we returned the conclusion of our conversation, this is
forgive me for I have followed.
Speaker 3 (28:17):
Welcome back to forgive me for I have followed. Here
is the conclusion of our conversation.
Speaker 2 (28:24):
We mentioned that we had someone share dms from Chez
and those were shared initially because of that kind of
path we were looking into, because again we were hearing
so much about tied eyes and seemingly wrongdoings, and so
this person shared these messages with us, and instead of
(28:44):
us sharing those with you, which she was so kind
to say that we could, I felt like, maybe it's
better for us to have a conversation with her Kalia,
so we can actually understand better of how she met
Tied Eyes and how the relationship through DM developed and
what that was like for her, because it did seemingly
(29:04):
get to a place where she was very uncomfortable and
clearly just like cut it off because I felt like
there was some inappropriate intentions. So thank you so much
for joining us and being a part of sharing your
experience and story.
Speaker 1 (29:21):
Of course, again happy to help in any way. I
know he's affected a lot of people, so if this
is going to help, I definitely want to share.
Speaker 4 (29:29):
Absolutely appreciate that.
Speaker 3 (29:31):
Yeah, I'm so sorry for the experiences that you've gone
through with him and just through the beginning of your
dance career. I know a lot of these things happening
early on can really affect the way that you move
forward within this environment. But again, echoing what Jessica said,
thank you for being on and sharing with us.
Speaker 4 (29:50):
So I'm just curious to know. So how did you
and Chaz meet.
Speaker 1 (29:55):
So I was on this dance company called Academy of Villains,
and our directors were beginning to become involved with the
Crump community, so that entailed having Tight Eyes at the time.
Baby tight has so many other people come on and
they would have them teach classes and stuff to us.
So we were having a little thing at our studio
(30:18):
where a bunch of choreographers came to teach, and he
was one of them, so we would have to share
the flyers and posters and tag all the choreographers. And
I think that was the first time we had ever
interacted after his class, thanking him obviously for teaching, and
he was just a figure that we really had to
respect since he had that relationship with our directors CJ
(30:43):
and Crystal Phoenix and Farside, who were a part of
Academy of Villains. He was known as one of like
the creators of crump, so to us he was like
a god at the time, and at the time, I
was like eighteen or nineteen years old. But after the class,
we kind of thanked him and it wasn't too much
conversation until he responded to me tagging him in the
(31:03):
post thanking me for taking his class, and I just
thanked him obviously, said it was out of my comfort
zone because I didn't do too much crumping before or
being on that company, and the conversation just kind of
went from there. And he would consistently be dming me,
and it started off a little innocent, and he would
just thank me for not being creeped out having a
(31:25):
man like him messaging me, because obviously I was trying
to be respectful, and then it just started turning into
an uncomfortable situation.
Speaker 4 (31:35):
When did that shift happen?
Speaker 2 (31:37):
Was there like a very clear indication for you of
when casually communicating turned into him messaging a lot more
and that you started to feel uncomfortable.
Speaker 1 (31:48):
Yes, Our interactions began in June of twenty eighteen, towards
the middle of that month, and it started off again innocent,
of him thanking me for coming, me thinking him for teaching,
saying it was out of my comfort zone, him letting
me know to keep going obviously, and right then and there,
(32:08):
now that I'm seeing he said, I feel more comfortable
speaking to you now. Sorry if I came off weird before,
but you're cool, because I think the second interaction we had,
he was kind of caught off guard and didn't really
respond so well, and I just let him know, like,
don't worry about it. And then it was late, so
he's like, you should be asleep, and that's when I
think right away the conversation started to shift and then
(32:31):
he started just asking questions about me, about where I'm
originally from, how long I've been living here, and then
the conversation just automatically went to like him just prying
and asking more questions about myself and saying that I'm short,
but I have a mature look. And it was pretty
much right away, and we continued talking until February seventh
(32:53):
of twenty nineteen was the last time he messaged me.
And then at that point, with all the previous conversations
and things that he had said, I was just too
uncomfortable to answer.
Speaker 3 (33:05):
I kind of want to go back to the beginning
of the conversation. You said it was twenty eighteen. Yes,
considering that he was brought into a dance company with
a lot of young people who look up to him,
and to me, it's just capitalizing on that position of
power to gain something sexually is extremely inappropriate. Thank you
(33:27):
for sharing these messages because I find them to be
very insightful about the kind of person that he is.
And you know, to this day, he's still being booked
on workshops in different places where I'm like, gosh, like
I hope he is not continuing to repeat patterns that
we have absolute proof of because we're here, we're having
this conversation with you, and thank you so much for
(33:48):
being brave enough to share it, because I think the
power that a lot of men have is in the
silence of people.
Speaker 1 (33:55):
And back then, looking back at it all, I had
told a few of my friends who were also in
the company I would show them some of the messages.
And that's around the time when he wanted to try
to hang out with me and in his terms, show
me what a real man is. And he said those words,
I have the messages, and at the time, the girls
(34:18):
my age, they were like encouraging it because of the
person that he was. To us at the time, like
he's a legend, Like just go test it out, see,
like this is crazy, And to them it was like
an exciting thing. And I at the time hadn't even
been in a relationship before. I've never had a boyfriend,
and I had like disclosed that to him as well,
(34:41):
because he was very persistent on meeting with me, and
I kept trying to show my disinterest respectfully, and it
came to a point where he was like, do you
just not like, guys, is that what it is? So
he kind of switched that around on me, causing me
to try to defend myself and just be like, no,
it's not that. I've just never been in a relationship.
(35:02):
So he knew that as well, and he was just
still very persistent with wanting to meet with me and
would say things like I can give you a booty
rub because of all that you have back there and
things like that, and when I brought it up later
about how that made me like uncomfortable or that he
had mentioned that, he's like, I didn't mean it unless
(35:25):
you were thinking about it, and would say things like that.
Speaker 2 (35:29):
Did you ever meet up with him privately? If you
don't mind me asking? I did not, thankfully. There was
one point where I was considering it heavily because of
his persistence and people in my ear just saying just
go once, see how it is. And it didn't help
that every time he wanted to meet.
Speaker 1 (35:48):
Late at night and he had invited me another time
to a function with all of his friends and things
like that, and I think that was the one time
I was debating ongoing and then again I just had
that gut feeling that I wouldn't be comfortable, so I
declined the offer. But there was only one time that
(36:08):
I almost considered going, and I'm thankful that I haven't
due to things that I've also heard about him later
on through other people and just thinking back, I feel
like that situation could have taken a turn for the worst.
So I'm glad that I didn't.
Speaker 4 (36:28):
Very glad you didn't either.
Speaker 3 (36:30):
So you had mentioned that you had met Chez because
he was brought in through Academy of Villains, and I
think the directors were Farside and Crystal.
Speaker 1 (36:39):
Yes, and she was also known as Phoenix in the
dance community.
Speaker 4 (36:42):
I've heard a bit about Academy of Villains.
Speaker 3 (36:44):
I have some friends who were a part of the
dance company, and to me, it was really concerning that
that was where you were introduced to this individual, considering
that there were other things going on within Academy of
Villains that had complaints as well.
Speaker 4 (37:00):
What was your time like there, just briefly overview.
Speaker 1 (37:03):
I joined the company when I was eighteen on the
youth team. It was very quick. I had just gone
in as like a guest to test out the waters,
and right off the bat they were training for a
World of Dance competition and ended up formatting me into
that piece, and by the end of that day they
were like, are you doing it or not? You are
(37:26):
center now in this piece. You need to let us
know right away. And I think that was the beginning
of a very manipulative experience being on that company for
the next three years. It was very demanding. I had
to choose between college and there, and they are very
much don't care about what life you have. Upside, it
(37:48):
was just you have to be at rehearsal. This is
your commitment. You owe it to us because we're doing
all these things for you. So I said I was
going to take a year off and I never ended
up going back to college because as just the expectations
that they had, but they don't exist anymore because they
got called out in twenty twenty going down on physical,
(38:08):
sexual and mental abuse. Wow, And in a way it
was looking back at it very cult like and just
the hole that they had on us was very scary,
like even leaving, they would manipulate you into staying. I
tried to leave three times, and if you do leave,
(38:29):
you'd get in a way blacklisted. So no one's allowed
to talk to you. They talk about you there and
use you as an example about how you weren't able
to handle it, and it was a very incredibly toxic environment.
And it's just a lot to unpack.
Speaker 3 (38:46):
It almost lights my body on fire because it's just
so reminiscent of my days when I was in seven
M and Chicina, and just how prevalent these groups are
and things that are not always necessarily religious, but there's
still utilizing the same practices of control and manipulation, and
oh man, I'm so sorry.
Speaker 2 (39:06):
This series is meant to provide a space to look
into investigating exposing high control groups, and like Leah saying,
it's not always in a religious environment. It's not always
you know, masked in a church, so high controlled groups
can be in dance companies and communities. So maybe we
(39:28):
can have you back to explore more of that and
hear more about your experience.
Speaker 1 (39:34):
Of course, Yeah, thank you for having me and listening
and wanting to look into these things, because it's been
swept under the rug for so long, and I'm sure
for a lot of other people who've had it much worse.
Speaker 2 (39:56):
It's not easy to reference back to a time that
you felt really vulnerable and that you felt uncomfortable, and
I would imagine that there's the concern of consequences in backlash.
If you're speaking against people that are active in the
community today, it's your livelihood, it's your profession.
Speaker 3 (40:14):
These are people who are in a big public light,
that have a lot of eyes on them, and so
situations like this, it can be harder for victims to
come forward when their alleged perpetrator is in a position
of power.
Speaker 4 (40:27):
It's easier for the person in the position.
Speaker 3 (40:29):
Of power to discredit the people who are coming out
and saying their truth and their experience and their story.
And think all of this evidence and proof that Chez
swears that we don't have, you know.
Speaker 4 (40:43):
Things are coming to lights.
Speaker 3 (40:46):
It was mentioned how twenty twenty was a big revealing
of predatory practices within the dance community.
Speaker 4 (40:51):
We're seeing a resurgence of.
Speaker 3 (40:52):
That this year in twenty twenty five, of the truth
being brought out into the light.
Speaker 2 (40:57):
We hope this conversation gave you new perspectives on the
tension between personal beliefs, accountability, and the evolution of dance culture.
Be sure to follow us for more thought provoking discussions
and as always thank you for tuning in to Forgive
Me For I Have Followed.
Speaker 3 (41:12):
Forgive Me For I Have Followed is a production from
wv Sound, Dirty Robert and iHeartMedia's Michael Tore podcast Network,
hosted by me Khalia Gray and me Jessicassavetto. Forgive Me
For I Have Followed is produced by Aaron Burlson and
Sophie Spencer Zavos.
Speaker 2 (41:27):
Our executive producers are Khalia Gray, myself, Wilmar Balderama, Leo
Klam and Aaron Burlison at wv Sound.
Speaker 3 (41:34):
This episode was edited by Sean Tracy and features original
music by Madison Davenport and Halo Boy. For more podcasts
from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever
you listen to your favorite shows.
Speaker 4 (41:46):
See you next week, See you next week,
Hosts And Creators
Jessica Acevedo
Kailea Gray
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com