October 4, 2024 • 37 mins
In this episode of the Netflix podcast, You Can't Make This Up, host Rebecca Lavoie interviews Dancing With The Devil director Derek Doneen and executive producer Jessica Acevedo about the making of their documentary.
Dancing For the Devil: The 7M TikTok Cult tells the story of the coercive church, its former members, and the performers still dancing online. It exposes the diabolical tactics used by cult-like organizations to exert control over people as well as the lengths families will go to keep their loved ones safe.SPOILER ALERT! If you haven't watched Dancing For the Devil yet, make sure to add it to your watch-list before listening on.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
I'm Rebecca Levoy and this is you Can't Make This Up.
You Can't Make This Up as the podcast where we
uncover the true stories behind your favorite Netflix documentaries and films.
(00:21):
On today's episode, we take a closer look at the
Netflix documentary series Dancing for the Devil the Seven M
TikTok Cult.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
I still love dance, but I feel like it's just different,
Like it was Miranda and I together.
Speaker 3 (00:36):
On this journey and now I'm alone.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
Today we're talking to director Derek Donin and executive producer
Jessica Acevedo. Melanie and Miranda Wilking were TikTok's favorite dancing
sisters until Melanie left the act to perform for the
seven M management company. Robert Schen was more than an
agent to his famous dancers. He was a spiritual guide
who instilled the tenants of the Chicaina church he founded
(01:04):
decades earlier. When Miranda's family went public with their story,
many online fans believe the Dancers for seven M were
all in a cult. As other members escaped and worked
to rebuild their lives, it wasn't until they came together
to stop the cycle of their abuser that the real
healing began dancing for the Devil. The seven M TikTok
Cult tells the story of the coercive church, its former members,
(01:28):
and the performers still dancing online. It exposes the diabolical
tactics used by cult like organizations to exert control over people,
as well as the lane's families will go to keep
their loved ones safe.
Speaker 4 (01:40):
I don't want to think which is still that weak, submissive, obedient,
afraid person.
Speaker 5 (01:48):
I want him to know I will do this, even
for the last thing that I do.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
And I'm joined now by series director Derek Donan and
executive producer Jessica Acevedo.
Speaker 3 (02:09):
Welcome to you can't make this up.
Speaker 4 (02:10):
Thanks so much for having us.
Speaker 3 (02:12):
Thank you so, Jessica.
Speaker 1 (02:14):
How did the story of the seven M Cult get
your attention? Did it come across your social media feed
or did you learn about it some other way?
Speaker 2 (02:22):
I actually learned about it from a director and dance
studio owner Tim Milgram, I had worked with him in
the past, and a fellow producer, Breonna Frapphart. So they'd
actually told me that there was a lot of buzz
in the dance community around seven M and that one
of the families had gone live to.
Speaker 3 (02:40):
Try to reconnect with their daughters.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
So of course that was the Wilkings family, and that's
the Wilkings live video. So after I'd watched that, like
most people, I was like, what the heck is going
on here? So later that night I ended up getting
on the phone with the Wilkings and ended up talking
to them for quite a few hours actually, and ultimately
that conversation kick started us investigating seven M more deeply,
(03:02):
and we realized it was like much, much bigger than
we had ever thought.
Speaker 1 (03:06):
So you start the series with the story a lot
of people know, but not everybody. I mean I certainly
didn't know a lot about this, but it has to
do with these famous TikTok dancers. But we learn in
the series that the story started a long time before
it broke on social media. So can you talk to
me about the origins of the Chicina Church, something that
we learn about in the series.
Speaker 4 (03:26):
Yeah, Honestly, the origin story for the church is still
a bit of a mystery in terms of how exactly
Robert put it together, but we know it's been going
on for roughly twenty five years. In fact, in the show,
as you see you know, we're with Priscilla and her
sister Melanie, who are part of that original group of members,
(03:51):
and you know, we start the show with the same
sort of entry point that we all had, which is
hearing about this on social media, seeing that it's impacting
these young dancers, this group that sort of masperating as
a management company that all of these young dancers have
been pulled into. And that's really what the first episode
is about. And it's not until the end of the
episode that we sort of reveal that this is something
(04:13):
that does go back, you know, two and a half decades,
and we widen the scope into that much broader story.
Speaker 1 (04:19):
So, Jessica, can you talk about Robert Shin. Do we
know what he was doing before running this church? Like
what was this man about?
Speaker 2 (04:27):
So from what we know, he was actually a medical
doctor of some sort. He had lived in Canada, and
from conversations that we had with people, he had moved
to la after having a calling from God and wanting
to change his profession completely. So he left medicine and
then just came in and started this church. And while
(04:50):
he was starting the church, there was also a real
estate component to it as well. I maybe wouldn't say
it an entrepreneur of some sort that just wanted to
kind of get his hands into quite a few different industries.
It was never really clear. We don't have an exact
answer for exactly what he was doing. We tried to
investigate a little bit further on the medical practice of
(05:12):
it all, but never really landed on it. But from
our understanding, he was in medicine and then moved here
to the States and started chakaina.
Speaker 4 (05:22):
Can you talk about.
Speaker 1 (05:23):
What he would say, Derek, about the consequences of not
following his teachings, about the consequences of not tithing, about
the consequences of leaving, because I found that really striking.
Speaker 4 (05:33):
The first is this sort of public rebuking where he
gets you on the pulpit and calls you out, shames
you in front of the rest of the congregation, makes
you feel as low as humanly possible, and encourages the
rest of the congregation to do the same if you.
Speaker 3 (05:48):
Didn't do what you're told.
Speaker 5 (05:50):
He would call you out when he's in the pulpit,
call your name, and call out everything you've done wrong.
Everyone just stares at you, and so then you feel
like so small and you feel embarrassed because now nobody's
talking to you, they're not even saying hi.
Speaker 4 (06:05):
That might mean excluding you from other activities with the group,
you know, sort of forcing you into doing things that
you might not want to do or might be sort
of less desirable, you know, calling women out about the
food that they're eating, if he doesn't like their figure,
sort of constantly making quirks about, you know, how they look,
(06:27):
what they're wearing, what they're eating. For the dancers, it
might mean withholding jobs, it might mean, you know, withholding money,
and so what that creates as an environment where you
want to get back into his favor. As he's doing that,
he's praising those who are obeying, who are giving more
tithing or more offerings to the Man of God. It's
(06:47):
really important then if you're one of those people who's
being rebuked, who's sort of on the outside, to try
to get back into that inner circle and you're then
on your best behavior. He also creates this climate where
everybody sort of ratting on each other. They all, as
you see in the show, have to keep their mentors
abreast of everything that they're doing and all of those
messages he's reading. So he now has sort of has
(07:10):
this inside scoop as to what everybody's doing all day,
every day, using that against you and creating this culture
where if you do something that's against the rules, you
know it's going to be you're going to get reported on.
You know, that's going to get back to your mentor
that's going to then get back to Robert and he's
going to then use that against you. So everybody's sort
of always walking on eggshells, deeply distrustful of everybody around
(07:30):
them and trying to stay on their best behavior, not
knowing who they can trust, what they can say, and
what's ultimately going to sort of backfire.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
Now I want to talk about this TikTok dancing culture
because for those who aren't on TikTok, or for people
like me who primarily get served up dog videos and
videos of people parodying home improvement stuff, there is this
like elite dancing content on TikTok, not just like Dad's dancing,
but like the elite dancers dancing. Can you talk about
(08:00):
TikTok has changed opportunities for up and coming dancers. I mean,
before this platform, it was about going on auditions and
hoping to be cast in things right, and this platform
has really changed the game, Jessica, Can you talk about that?
Speaker 2 (08:14):
Yeah, I mean the best to my knowledge is that
it has changed the industry. Even the way that I
believe artists release music. It's almost with a TikTok dance
component attached to it. So you have all of these
young people striving to be the first or the one
that's going to launch the video or be part of
that small elite group that makes it go viral, whether
(08:36):
that be the song or the dance specifically. So with
that there also comes all these other opportunities with sponsorships
and with brands that are coming in to look to
these TikTok dancers to help promote. So I think it's
just a different way. It's a different medium of how
we are ingesting content and how brands are utilizing this
(09:01):
platform to promote. So I could understand how someone could
see that as an opportunity, but it's just unfortunate because
then that could also be taken advantage of.
Speaker 1 (09:15):
So isn't the part of the issue, Derek, that Like
from the artist perspective, you know, it's the modernization that
is like the hard thing to connect, Right, there's the opportunity.
There's the platform, but how do you then earn a
living like we see that in the documentary, Like I'm
out there, but I'm still sleeping on friends' couches. This,
I mean, this reminds me a lot of the nineties
when you had all these young talented singers and then
(09:38):
there was this wave of predatory producers creating boy bands.
Can you talk about the dancer perspective here?
Speaker 4 (09:45):
Yeah, I think it's really important because there is a
sort of general perception when you look at something like this,
to say, how are these people just so gullible? How
could they not see it? How could they get pulled in?
I would that could never happen to me, right, ten
out of ten times, if you talk to somebody on
the street, your friends, that would be the response, Right,
that could never happen to me. And it was really
(10:05):
important for us to humanize the experience, for us to
see that it can that it can happen to somebody
from all walks of life. So you want you have
to think about this perspective. As a young dancer who's
coming from a community wherever you grew up, you're probably
the best at what you do, right, you've been dancing
competitively or performing in that community growing up, and you're
(10:25):
the star, and so you have big dreams. You want
to make it big. You come to Los Angeles in
pursuit of that dream, and all of a sudden, you
are now one of a million people who are just
as talented as you, auditioning for the same roles. And
social media is sort of that great equalizer, right. It's
where you can create a name for yourself and a
brand for yourself on your own right. And now, obviously,
(10:47):
as we know, it's become an industry and there are
managers and agents and professionals that will help you grow
that brand. But you really can be discovered online and
that's really exciting. But what that means is that you're
content has to stand out, it has to look professional,
it has to have great music, it has to be
edited right, and so all of a sudden, now there
(11:09):
is immense pressure. So I'm imagining this dancer perspective of
being quite isolating coming to this big city, going to
these auditions, trying to find community, and feeling really alone
and struggling, and so to all of a sudden is
have this opportunity to move into a house with other young,
like minded people who are all doing the same thing,
(11:31):
who have positive morals, right, who sort of believe the
same sort of ideals about the world that you might have.
Share those ideals with you. You know, they're not partying
and getting into drugs and drinking, but they really just
care about dancing. They're passionate, they care about God and
their walk with God like you might. And you have
somebody who's going to be filming that content for you,
(11:54):
it's going to look amazing. Who's going to edit it,
who's going to give you music, who's going to deal
with the paperwork and the management side of it. All
you have to do then is focus on your craft,
and to do that surrounded by people who you care about,
who are supporting you. That sounds like a pretty good deal.
I can understand from that perspective, then, how I would
be pulled into a group like that, where again, on
(12:14):
the surface, you're not walking into a cult, right, You're
walking into a group of like minded people who are saying, hey,
and we also pray over here at this church. You know,
in my mind, yeah, that sounds like something that I
want to do. It's not only going to benefit my career,
but benefit me as a person too. And then slowly
that control happens and you're not even seeing it happen
(12:34):
because again, your brand is growing, you're getting more and
more followers, you're getting opportunities that you didn't get before.
You're probably pocketing a lot more money. And that's Robert's messaging, right,
the more you give, the more you get return. And
so they're getting more and more jobs, they're giving more
and more back to the church. But in many ways
that's then validating his message because he's saying, see, you
gave me all of this last week, all this tithing,
(12:56):
all this offering, and now look at this brand deal.
You just got this right. And it sort of happened
at this perfect flash point during the pandemic when everybody
was kind of home. TikTok was exploding, people were seeking
this content out, so it's sort of this perfect storm.
Speaker 1 (13:14):
Family is a recurring theme in this series, you know,
the bond with these kids with each other, but also
the bond with families. And you now have also two
pairs of sisters in the documentary. So let's start with
one of those, Miranda and Melanie Wilking, their parents Dean
and Kelly. So I'm curious. You know, we heard a
(13:35):
little bit about this in the documentary, but their story
really broke through because they spoke out, I think in
the very medium on which Miranda and Melanie sort of
found fame. Can you talk about the breakthrough of their story,
why it broke through, and how it amplified the seven
m story? Jessica like, can you talk about that moment?
Speaker 3 (13:53):
Yeah, So it's rare.
Speaker 2 (13:56):
It's rare that you see a family be so vulnerable
and willing to go on an Instagram live and kind
of put that all out there.
Speaker 3 (14:04):
We don't know what to do anymore. I love this
girl right here. She has been our rock and she
is our pride and joy. But we have two daughters.
Speaker 2 (14:15):
We don't just have one, and we will not fight
the staff fighting for our other one too.
Speaker 3 (14:21):
No, no way, they messed with the wrong family.
Speaker 4 (14:24):
We're not going away.
Speaker 2 (14:25):
It's important that people know that the Wilkins had tried
to get in contact with Miranda for a little over
a year, so there was that distance that was happening
for quite some time. So really that Instagram life for them,
it felt like their last hope. And so even though
that's where it started. The backstory for them is much
(14:45):
further than that. So we were made aware of it,
and I think just naturally how social media works now,
it's just things go viral, and when you see a
family being viral, when you know that these young women
had had quite a bit of a following, it just
started to like spread like wildfire. So one social account
picked it up, another social account, then you had big
(15:07):
media outlets picking it up as well. So I think
that was just the kind of catalyst to everything unraveling
at that point. So I think it picked up even
faster than they had even imagined and that they had
ever thought, because ultimately their objective was just to get
back in contact with their daughter, So it was never
for any of this. This was not what was motivating
(15:29):
them by any means. If anything, was kind of quite
the opposite. They were quite hesitant and fearful that any
more exposure would lose more contact with their daughter because
after the live there was a lot of repercussions. There
was a lot of divide that was happening between Miranda
and the family, even more so than they had already
been experiencing. So that was really difficult for them to navigate.
(15:50):
But yes, I think the live was their kind of
last ditch effort to try to get in contact with
the Miranda, to reconnect with her in some way, and
then all of these other accounts just picked it up
and then it went viral way faster than they had
even imagined.
Speaker 1 (16:06):
Now, before they did the live, I noticed that Melanie
was keeping up a ruse of sorts, as if she
and Miranda still had a good relationship and as if
Miranda was taking a break and could come back. Was
that an attempt to sort of like keep the door open,
just sort of say, like, I didn't think she was
keeping up the ruse, by the way, in order to
keep the brand alive and keep making money, because when
(16:27):
you look at it after you sort of see what happened,
it really sort of seems like maybe she'll come back,
Maybe she'll come back.
Speaker 3 (16:35):
Am I reading that right? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (16:37):
I think it was always about reconnecting, and so Melanie never,
from our conversations, she never wanted to separate from her sister,
and so I think, yes, it was about keeping that
door open in hopes that they would reconnect.
Speaker 4 (16:51):
Imagine being I have two sons who are very close
they're much younger, obviously five and two years old, but
they're very, very close. We have a very tight knit family,
and I'm trying to imagine the experience of one of
them dropping off the face of the map that on
its own would be horrifying, but then to see them
(17:12):
posting content day after day, so I can see that
they're alive. I can see in many ways they're thriving
every single day. They're posting new videos. But they've changed
their phone number, they've changed their address, they're not responding
to texts, emails, phone calls. I don't even know where
they are. I can't even go knock on the door
if I wanted to. I'm trying to imagine what that
(17:33):
experience might feel like, and that's something we wanted to
try and show in the movie. And so from Melanie's perspective,
of course, I think she wanted to keep the door open,
but also what other choice did she have. The goal
was not to go public with this. They didn't have
new content to post, So her two options are go
public and let the world know, or keep up the
(17:56):
ruse and keep the door open and hope that she
can work some thing out with her sister, and she
tried that for as long as she possibly could, and
as just said, they were doing everything they could behind
the scenes, and it was out of pure desperation, you know,
that they finally went live as a sort of last
ditch attempt to reach their daughter, and they did right.
(18:16):
It provoked a response, and they weren't looking for a
big public drama, but that really did come out of
having no other options, nowhere else to go, right.
Speaker 1 (18:26):
So, Derek, your documentary makes a big shift, you said,
the stage, Dean and Kelly sort of recreate for us
the investigations that they did, you know, trying to find
out where Miranda was. But then there's this shift in
the documentary where it becomes more of a real time story.
Speaker 3 (18:42):
Can you talk about that.
Speaker 1 (18:43):
Were they reluctant to sort of let the cameras in
on their real time experiences or were they were they
were they willing to do that knowing that the camera
being present made a difference the last time that they
wanted their story to be a public one and hoping
to make a breakthrough.
Speaker 4 (18:59):
It was part of the vision from the very beginning,
and we spent Jess and I both spent so many
hours with all of the subjects before we started rolling cameras,
so that when we were there with cameras that trust
had been established, that comfort level had been established. It
was really important for us to show in real time
(19:22):
what it feels like to lose a loved one and
to desperately and try and get them out.
Speaker 3 (19:28):
Everything gets worse, but as.
Speaker 4 (19:33):
Loving parents, what can we do or how can we
get them back?
Speaker 3 (19:40):
The goal these adult children is to keep the minds
of communication open.
Speaker 4 (19:47):
That I think separates this from you know, the dozen
or so other cult documentaries that are out there, which
are generally retrospective looks back. But we came into the
story as it was evolving and was really important for
us to capture it in real time and create an
experience for the audience that felt very human and visceral,
(20:09):
and allow them to see the pain and desperation that
the families are going through, not just see it, but
feel it and live it with them, because ultimately that
is then something I think that becomes much more relatable
and ultimately, you know, drives a more urgent call to action.
(20:29):
So no, that was something that we had talked about
from the very beginning, and ultimately the decision for the
families to participate was out of a wanting desperately to
do anything they could to reunite their families, and this
being that sort of last ditch sort of hope that
maybe if they told their story and in some ways
(20:52):
use the film to talk directly to their daughters in
the Wilking case or son and the Rihano case, that
maybe they'd be able to break through in a way
they hadn't, you know, with all of their other attempts
in the past. And also to help others who are
out there going through a similar experience. I think it
was really important for them to say this is our
experience and we want to be a cautionary tale of sorts.
(21:16):
And also, finally, I'll just add that from a production standpoint,
you know, often those Verita shoots, the sort of fly
on the Wall shoots, were just a three person crew,
you know, me, Jess and a sound person. We didn't
come in with you know, lights and a DP and
various crew members that you might typically expect. It was
very very small and intimate and the same three people
(21:37):
that were there day in and day out, so that
we could always sort of stay within what the subjects
were comfortable with.
Speaker 2 (21:44):
It was while we were having those conversations, it was
wanting the audience to feel what we were feeling in
the moment, and that was there was so many oh
shit moments, if you will, along the way as we
started to investigate this. I mean when the day dancers
got out, we were already months into the development and
the conversations, and it wasn't initially that they were going
(22:07):
to be a part of this because they were all
still in there.
Speaker 3 (22:09):
That was the hope.
Speaker 4 (22:11):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (22:11):
And so when the dancers got.
Speaker 2 (22:12):
Out, it was this moment that, oh my gosh, there's
dancers getting out. And of course, even from our perspective,
were like, is this real?
Speaker 3 (22:20):
Is this the ruse?
Speaker 2 (22:21):
Because whenever it seemed that social media would state something
about Robert, there seemed to have been a response from
Robert's side. So even we were like, is this real?
Did the dancers really get out? And so sitting down
with Kalia and I actually met her in Vegas and
we sat down in a fuss shop for a few
hours that had conversations. We both had our guards up
(22:41):
because she had heard about this media from Robert and
how essentially for lack of better words, we're the bad guys.
And I had my guard up because I wasn't sure
if this was me being pulled into one of Robert's
schemes if you will.
Speaker 1 (22:55):
Right, no, right, the schemes that we hear about in
his audio that we hear in the film. So I
have a question about the art of this. I have
watched a lot of documentaries with a lot of b roll,
and what you have here, and something that you've created
here is really really special. You have these interstitial, gorgeous
dance scenes with some of your subjects. You have them
(23:17):
with Melanie, you have them with former church members. It
really reminds me as if you were that you're not
just talking about young people who were involved in something
really really scary and they are victims of something, but
that they are also exceptionally talented young people. They're just
exceptional in many ways. I would love to hear about
the decision to do it that way and what it
(23:39):
was like filming those Sure.
Speaker 4 (23:41):
What I've learned as a doc filmmaker is that often
the most powerful moments are what's read between the lines.
Often it's a look on somebody's face, where it's the
way that a line is delivered. Often I do a
lot of writing as I'm editing, but then you get
into the the actual editing process and you realize that
(24:04):
it's not just about the words that are being said
and what's on the page, but how it's felt and interpreted.
And again, sometimes it's about what's not said. And so
when we started this process knowing that we were going to,
especially once more of the dancers sort of signed on
to the project and agreed to tell their stories, it
was sort of immediate for Justin and I to allow
(24:27):
their dancing to help tell their story. Right. It is
one of the oldest forms of self expression, something that
we as humans have been doing for thousands of years,
and so it was really important for us to allow
them to tell their own story, not only in their
own words, but true this form of self expression. And
that was something, of course that they were all really
(24:48):
excited about, you know, invariably that we used in almost
all of these scenes or the moments where they're just freestyling, right.
Some of them came with sort of choreographed pieces, but
we talked through the emotions that we were hoping to convey.
We talked through what scenes we were going to be
using this dance footage for so that was something that
was in their mind. And then we started throwing sort
(25:10):
of curve balls at them and playing different music than
they had prepared, and that's where we got I think,
the best stuff because it was raw and honest and
from the heart, and you really feel that emotion and
it says so much more than can be said in
words because it is coming straight from the heart. It
is their sort of purest expression of how they're feeling.
Speaker 1 (25:30):
So later in the series, we meet another pair of
sisters integral to the story, Melanie and Priscilla, and their
involvement goes back to the early days of the Chicaina Church.
Priscilla stayed for many years, but Melanie got out. She
reveals that Shin's bagdis back then, you know, weren't just financial,
but they included coerced sex, sexual assault. Are these allegations
(25:52):
that were well publicized before your series.
Speaker 4 (25:54):
Well, Priscilla and her sister, you know, many of the
older members weren't the focus of a lot of the
press coverage, So I think some of the details that
we reveal in the show hadn't been publicized. That said,
there were a lot of brave voices who had come forward.
Kylie's experience had been publicized, so some of the allegations
(26:17):
were out there. Some of the reporting done by you know,
some of the internet sleuths and reporters that you see
in the show had uncovered some of that information. So
some of it was out there. But I don't think
the details that we sort of uncover in the show
were out there. And even since, I've heard more allegations
(26:38):
that have come directly to me from former members who
didn't participate in the documentary who've shared their.
Speaker 3 (26:44):
Experiences as well.
Speaker 2 (26:45):
There were some of the slu's accounts, and there were
some reporters that had spoke about it, it wasn't really widespread.
Speaker 3 (26:53):
A lot of people didn't really know about it.
Speaker 2 (26:55):
But outside of the Lee sisters and Kylie's account, there
were more people that had come forward that weren't a
part of the doc that spoke out about their abuses,
and we had conversations with other women that had chosen
not to be a part of the documentary but have
maybe spoken to different media outlets. But it wasn't highly
I mean, it wasn't fully out there, but because it
(27:17):
was a story in real time, We just slowly started
to see people come forward, and we actually had some
women say like, thank you for speaking out. I thought
I would never talk about this, like I had put
it away and thought I would just live with this
for the rest of my life, and it gave them
an opportunity to share their side of the story. It
was there here and there, but not highly publicized.
Speaker 1 (27:39):
Jessica, can you talk about what seems to be a
really complicated relationship between Melanie and Priscilla. Loving relationship, but
a complicated relationship in particular. I'm thinking of the scene
where they have this argument in public. They both have
strong feelings, you know, about themselves, about their experiences in
this cult and their implicated feelings. Priscilla in particular expresses
(28:03):
some very complicated feelings. What was it like being there
for that conversation? What was it like, you know, watching
the film back.
Speaker 2 (28:11):
I'll be honest, I was very emotional throughout this entire process.
I think I cried more doing this project and in
the last two years than I have. It's so real
and it's honest, and there's growth that's happening. There's a
lot of hurt that people are expressing, and when we
as content creators are there for this. I feel for
(28:35):
them on a different level, just because that vulnerability is
very hard to ask if people, let alone ask if
those people while a camera is in a room, Like
Derek said, we were pretty lean and mean. So Derek
was really great at letting people have that space. So
you can feel that we were in the room. But
it's family. It's two sisters that love each other so
(28:56):
much that it's hard to kind of navigate those feelings
at times, and those emotions go from anger to hurt
to happiness in a second.
Speaker 1 (29:07):
I don't know what it means to care about a child.
Speaker 3 (29:13):
How can you get mad me?
Speaker 2 (29:16):
Look at me?
Speaker 4 (29:17):
Money?
Speaker 3 (29:19):
How can you put the border on me?
Speaker 5 (29:23):
I told you everything. I want to die, and you
want me to fucking be on time when you sit
on his birthday?
Speaker 3 (29:28):
Boys, I'm sorry because I'm late. That is show up boy, Kilo,
I said, which one do you want.
Speaker 1 (29:34):
Me to do?
Speaker 4 (29:36):
It was really important for us to show the audience
the experience of reconciliation, family reconciliation. How I think my
perception at least coming into this was, you know, you
get out of a situation like that and you're just
running back into the open arms of your parents and siblings,
so grateful and happy to be out and sort of
(29:57):
find your freedom again. And it's obviously now obvious to me,
but not at the time, and I think won't be
obvious to our audience that it's much more complicated than that.
You know, you're coming out a shell of yourself, trying
to pick up the pieces, trying to rediscover who you are,
what you believe, your place in the world, your place
within your own family. And so we had observed as
(30:20):
Priscilla and Melanie were trying to rebuild their relationship, they
were making a lot of strides, but it never really
had that serious sort of heart to heart conversation. The
sort of bravery it took to ultimately have that conversation
while we were there in the room with the cameras
rolling was painful but beautiful. You know, it's something I
(30:44):
think we can all relate to, you know, with our
own families, we go through those experiences and if you
have that sort of enduring love, you come out the
other side stronger. And in that moment, while there was
a lot of vulnerability and pain on display, to see
them work through that in real time and come out
the other side more connected, and a deepening of their
(31:05):
relationship was profound.
Speaker 1 (31:12):
Shin seems to have a strategy to keep members of
his cult from reconciling with their families and to keep
the cult intact, which is to say to the members
of his church, visit your families, talk to them, but
limit conversation about us. Just give them a little bit
and keep them at an arm's length. And we see
this really complicated scene again where Miranda re engages with
(31:36):
her family at Christmas, and at other times we see
this Christmas scene and then we hear her mom say,
you know, she wants the visits to go, well, she
just wants to see her daughter, so she will continue
to pretend I really just wanted to be like come
in and just like forget everything, and let's just almost
pretend like nothing happened, you know, like just.
Speaker 4 (31:58):
To that's all.
Speaker 3 (32:00):
That's all we've ever done.
Speaker 4 (32:03):
What's that That's how we've averatize.
Speaker 3 (32:05):
It's just person like nothing happened.
Speaker 2 (32:11):
Well, yeah, because the only times you've ever said anything,
she said, I'm not going to see you again if
you keep talking about it.
Speaker 1 (32:19):
Right, And Melanie and her dad seem really frustrated by this.
So to some extent it shows me that Shin's technique
is working, but it also shows that this family is
stuck in this phase of non reconciliation. Yet they're also
making this film with you, which I know is going
to shift things. So how did that feel for you
(32:39):
to be in that moment because it is so layered,
and as a viewer, you're experiencing it with them, you know,
watching them play this play and also knowing that they're
making this film at the same time.
Speaker 4 (32:52):
Gosh, yeah, yes, I mean, you know, it's a it's
a hard question to answer. You know, again, I sort
of go back to asking the audience to put themselves
in their shoes. You know, what would you do in
that situation where you're so desperate to resume your relationship,
to have contact with your daughter or your sister or
(33:14):
your son, and to then be sort of granted that access.
So you're grateful to now, you know, have the thing
that you've been fighting for for over a year, but
to know that it is under the control and ultimately
manipulation of this other person, that he's the one behind
the scenes pulling the strings, and that he's using that
(33:38):
as a way to sort of deepen his control over
his members by telling them that, you know, you're cutting
them off to save them right, to allow them to
get to heaven, and then only sort of allowing them
access and sort of back into their lives, to sort
of keep the family satiated, to keep them at bay.
(33:58):
And the families know that, yet it's still incredibly complicated
and painful again because they crave that connection more than anything,
and so they'll take it even though they know that
while the interaction might be genuine, it is still part
of a larger manipulation by Robert and part of his
larger control. I'm at a loss trying to verbalize how
(34:24):
that must feel for these parents.
Speaker 1 (34:26):
But Jessica, you know that this series is also like
a bigger version of that Instagram Live in many ways
for this family, right.
Speaker 3 (34:34):
Yeah, like the Instagram Live.
Speaker 2 (34:36):
It wasn't easy, like you were saying with Christmas, that
was hard for us to be there in that moment.
Speaker 3 (34:42):
They didn't know whether or not Miranda.
Speaker 2 (34:44):
I mean, they had seen this before where she says
one thing and then maybe she has to cancel, and
you know, again you have this puppeteer if you will
and Robert's really controlling that they were on edge.
Speaker 3 (34:56):
They had this whole conversation of like, do you think
she's going to come?
Speaker 2 (34:59):
Are they going to make an excuse because the snowstorm's
coming in, and like, I can't even imagine what that's like.
That everything that you do you have to think about
what that other person might be saying on the other end.
So having us in the room, having us be there
was really difficult for them too, because they felt that
it was maybe not being fully transparent, and as a
(35:20):
family that had always been so close knit, that wasn't
easy for them. Ultimately, they did tell Miranda they were
a part of this project because they didn't want to
feel that anymore. They didn't want to feel that they
were playing two sides in any sort of way. But
they also wanted her to know that they were doing
this in hopes that she would see it, in hopes
that she would maybe see Robert for who we've learned
(35:43):
he is and ultimately maybe get out of that controlled environment.
Speaker 4 (35:47):
And also to see I would just add, to see
the love that they have and to really sort of
hopefully see their perspective and POV and all of this,
because the way that they have interpreted the actions of
their parents has been filtered through what Robert tells them,
you know, and so this again is sort of that
opportunity to show their kids that and their family like,
(36:09):
this is really who we are and what you know. Again,
like sort of to have the opportunity to speak directly
to them, this is what we want you to hear,
and this is why we're doing this.
Speaker 1 (36:20):
I thought one of the most moving moments was seeing
Melanie talk about how she's kind of a prisoner of
this cult too, and she feels a little bit controlled
by the situation, and that was really astounding moment. And
you know, I found myself wondering what Miranda is going
to think and feel when she sees that as well.
Derek Donin and Jessica Ascevedo. The series is Dancing for
(36:42):
the Devil, the Seven m TikTok Cult. Thank you so
much for joining me on the podcast to talk about it.
It's a fascinating conversation and a fascinating series. I really
really enjoyed watching it and speaking with you about it.
Speaker 4 (36:52):
It's been a pleasure.
Speaker 3 (36:52):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 4 (36:53):
Thanks so much for having us.
Speaker 1 (36:55):
That's it for this week's episode. Thanks again to Derek
Doning and Jessica Assevedo. More of my takes, check out
my other podcast, Crime Writers. On Each week, on that show,
we break down the latest and true crime documentaries, TV shows, podcasts,
and pop culture. If you like you Can't make this up,
please rate and review this show and share it with
your friends. Find us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever
(37:16):
you're listening right now, and make sure to follow the
show to stay tuned for all new episodes. You can't
make this up. As a production of Netflix, I'm Rebecca Lavoy.
Thanks so much for listening.
I'm Rebecca Levoy and this is you Can't Make This Up.
You Can't Make This Up as the podcast where we
uncover the true stories behind your favorite Netflix documentaries and films.
(00:21):
On today's episode, we take a closer look at the
Netflix documentary series Dancing for the Devil the Seven M
TikTok Cult.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
I still love dance, but I feel like it's just different,
Like it was Miranda and I together.
Speaker 3 (00:36):
On this journey and now I'm alone.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
Today we're talking to director Derek Donin and executive producer
Jessica Acevedo. Melanie and Miranda Wilking were TikTok's favorite dancing
sisters until Melanie left the act to perform for the
seven M management company. Robert Schen was more than an
agent to his famous dancers. He was a spiritual guide
who instilled the tenants of the Chicaina church he founded
(01:04):
decades earlier. When Miranda's family went public with their story,
many online fans believe the Dancers for seven M were
all in a cult. As other members escaped and worked
to rebuild their lives, it wasn't until they came together
to stop the cycle of their abuser that the real
healing began dancing for the Devil. The seven M TikTok
Cult tells the story of the coercive church, its former members,
(01:28):
and the performers still dancing online. It exposes the diabolical
tactics used by cult like organizations to exert control over people,
as well as the lane's families will go to keep
their loved ones safe.
Speaker 4 (01:40):
I don't want to think which is still that weak, submissive, obedient,
afraid person.
Speaker 5 (01:48):
I want him to know I will do this, even
for the last thing that I do.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
And I'm joined now by series director Derek Donan and
executive producer Jessica Acevedo.
Speaker 3 (02:09):
Welcome to you can't make this up.
Speaker 4 (02:10):
Thanks so much for having us.
Speaker 3 (02:12):
Thank you so, Jessica.
Speaker 1 (02:14):
How did the story of the seven M Cult get
your attention? Did it come across your social media feed
or did you learn about it some other way?
Speaker 2 (02:22):
I actually learned about it from a director and dance
studio owner Tim Milgram, I had worked with him in
the past, and a fellow producer, Breonna Frapphart. So they'd
actually told me that there was a lot of buzz
in the dance community around seven M and that one
of the families had gone live to.
Speaker 3 (02:40):
Try to reconnect with their daughters.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
So of course that was the Wilkings family, and that's
the Wilkings live video. So after I'd watched that, like
most people, I was like, what the heck is going
on here? So later that night I ended up getting
on the phone with the Wilkings and ended up talking
to them for quite a few hours actually, and ultimately
that conversation kick started us investigating seven M more deeply,
(03:02):
and we realized it was like much, much bigger than
we had ever thought.
Speaker 1 (03:06):
So you start the series with the story a lot
of people know, but not everybody. I mean I certainly
didn't know a lot about this, but it has to
do with these famous TikTok dancers. But we learn in
the series that the story started a long time before
it broke on social media. So can you talk to
me about the origins of the Chicina Church, something that
we learn about in the series.
Speaker 4 (03:26):
Yeah, Honestly, the origin story for the church is still
a bit of a mystery in terms of how exactly
Robert put it together, but we know it's been going
on for roughly twenty five years. In fact, in the show,
as you see you know, we're with Priscilla and her
sister Melanie, who are part of that original group of members,
(03:51):
and you know, we start the show with the same
sort of entry point that we all had, which is
hearing about this on social media, seeing that it's impacting
these young dancers, this group that sort of masperating as
a management company that all of these young dancers have
been pulled into. And that's really what the first episode
is about. And it's not until the end of the
episode that we sort of reveal that this is something
(04:13):
that does go back, you know, two and a half decades,
and we widen the scope into that much broader story.
Speaker 1 (04:19):
So, Jessica, can you talk about Robert Shin. Do we
know what he was doing before running this church? Like
what was this man about?
Speaker 2 (04:27):
So from what we know, he was actually a medical
doctor of some sort. He had lived in Canada, and
from conversations that we had with people, he had moved
to la after having a calling from God and wanting
to change his profession completely. So he left medicine and
then just came in and started this church. And while
(04:50):
he was starting the church, there was also a real
estate component to it as well. I maybe wouldn't say
it an entrepreneur of some sort that just wanted to
kind of get his hands into quite a few different industries.
It was never really clear. We don't have an exact
answer for exactly what he was doing. We tried to
investigate a little bit further on the medical practice of
(05:12):
it all, but never really landed on it. But from
our understanding, he was in medicine and then moved here
to the States and started chakaina.
Speaker 4 (05:22):
Can you talk about.
Speaker 1 (05:23):
What he would say, Derek, about the consequences of not
following his teachings, about the consequences of not tithing, about
the consequences of leaving, because I found that really striking.
Speaker 4 (05:33):
The first is this sort of public rebuking where he
gets you on the pulpit and calls you out, shames
you in front of the rest of the congregation, makes
you feel as low as humanly possible, and encourages the
rest of the congregation to do the same if you.
Speaker 3 (05:48):
Didn't do what you're told.
Speaker 5 (05:50):
He would call you out when he's in the pulpit,
call your name, and call out everything you've done wrong.
Everyone just stares at you, and so then you feel
like so small and you feel embarrassed because now nobody's
talking to you, they're not even saying hi.
Speaker 4 (06:05):
That might mean excluding you from other activities with the group,
you know, sort of forcing you into doing things that
you might not want to do or might be sort
of less desirable, you know, calling women out about the
food that they're eating, if he doesn't like their figure,
sort of constantly making quirks about, you know, how they look,
(06:27):
what they're wearing, what they're eating. For the dancers, it
might mean withholding jobs, it might mean, you know, withholding money,
and so what that creates as an environment where you
want to get back into his favor. As he's doing that,
he's praising those who are obeying, who are giving more
tithing or more offerings to the Man of God. It's
(06:47):
really important then if you're one of those people who's
being rebuked, who's sort of on the outside, to try
to get back into that inner circle and you're then
on your best behavior. He also creates this climate where
everybody sort of ratting on each other. They all, as
you see in the show, have to keep their mentors
abreast of everything that they're doing and all of those
messages he's reading. So he now has sort of has
(07:10):
this inside scoop as to what everybody's doing all day,
every day, using that against you and creating this culture
where if you do something that's against the rules, you
know it's going to be you're going to get reported on.
You know, that's going to get back to your mentor
that's going to then get back to Robert and he's
going to then use that against you. So everybody's sort
of always walking on eggshells, deeply distrustful of everybody around
(07:30):
them and trying to stay on their best behavior, not
knowing who they can trust, what they can say, and
what's ultimately going to sort of backfire.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
Now I want to talk about this TikTok dancing culture
because for those who aren't on TikTok, or for people
like me who primarily get served up dog videos and
videos of people parodying home improvement stuff, there is this
like elite dancing content on TikTok, not just like Dad's dancing,
but like the elite dancers dancing. Can you talk about
(08:00):
TikTok has changed opportunities for up and coming dancers. I mean,
before this platform, it was about going on auditions and
hoping to be cast in things right, and this platform
has really changed the game, Jessica, Can you talk about that?
Speaker 2 (08:14):
Yeah, I mean the best to my knowledge is that
it has changed the industry. Even the way that I
believe artists release music. It's almost with a TikTok dance
component attached to it. So you have all of these
young people striving to be the first or the one
that's going to launch the video or be part of
that small elite group that makes it go viral, whether
(08:36):
that be the song or the dance specifically. So with
that there also comes all these other opportunities with sponsorships
and with brands that are coming in to look to
these TikTok dancers to help promote. So I think it's
just a different way. It's a different medium of how
we are ingesting content and how brands are utilizing this
(09:01):
platform to promote. So I could understand how someone could
see that as an opportunity, but it's just unfortunate because
then that could also be taken advantage of.
Speaker 1 (09:15):
So isn't the part of the issue, Derek, that Like
from the artist perspective, you know, it's the modernization that
is like the hard thing to connect, Right, there's the opportunity.
There's the platform, but how do you then earn a
living like we see that in the documentary, Like I'm
out there, but I'm still sleeping on friends' couches. This,
I mean, this reminds me a lot of the nineties
when you had all these young talented singers and then
(09:38):
there was this wave of predatory producers creating boy bands.
Can you talk about the dancer perspective here?
Speaker 4 (09:45):
Yeah, I think it's really important because there is a
sort of general perception when you look at something like this,
to say, how are these people just so gullible? How
could they not see it? How could they get pulled in?
I would that could never happen to me, right, ten
out of ten times, if you talk to somebody on
the street, your friends, that would be the response, Right,
that could never happen to me. And it was really
(10:05):
important for us to humanize the experience, for us to
see that it can that it can happen to somebody
from all walks of life. So you want you have
to think about this perspective. As a young dancer who's
coming from a community wherever you grew up, you're probably
the best at what you do, right, you've been dancing
competitively or performing in that community growing up, and you're
(10:25):
the star, and so you have big dreams. You want
to make it big. You come to Los Angeles in
pursuit of that dream, and all of a sudden, you
are now one of a million people who are just
as talented as you, auditioning for the same roles. And
social media is sort of that great equalizer, right. It's
where you can create a name for yourself and a
brand for yourself on your own right. And now, obviously,
(10:47):
as we know, it's become an industry and there are
managers and agents and professionals that will help you grow
that brand. But you really can be discovered online and
that's really exciting. But what that means is that you're
content has to stand out, it has to look professional,
it has to have great music, it has to be
edited right, and so all of a sudden, now there
(11:09):
is immense pressure. So I'm imagining this dancer perspective of
being quite isolating coming to this big city, going to
these auditions, trying to find community, and feeling really alone
and struggling, and so to all of a sudden is
have this opportunity to move into a house with other young,
like minded people who are all doing the same thing,
(11:31):
who have positive morals, right, who sort of believe the
same sort of ideals about the world that you might have.
Share those ideals with you. You know, they're not partying
and getting into drugs and drinking, but they really just
care about dancing. They're passionate, they care about God and
their walk with God like you might. And you have
somebody who's going to be filming that content for you,
(11:54):
it's going to look amazing. Who's going to edit it,
who's going to give you music, who's going to deal
with the paperwork and the management side of it. All
you have to do then is focus on your craft,
and to do that surrounded by people who you care about,
who are supporting you. That sounds like a pretty good deal.
I can understand from that perspective, then, how I would
be pulled into a group like that, where again, on
(12:14):
the surface, you're not walking into a cult, right, You're
walking into a group of like minded people who are saying, hey,
and we also pray over here at this church. You know,
in my mind, yeah, that sounds like something that I
want to do. It's not only going to benefit my career,
but benefit me as a person too. And then slowly
that control happens and you're not even seeing it happen
(12:34):
because again, your brand is growing, you're getting more and
more followers, you're getting opportunities that you didn't get before.
You're probably pocketing a lot more money. And that's Robert's messaging, right,
the more you give, the more you get return. And
so they're getting more and more jobs, they're giving more
and more back to the church. But in many ways
that's then validating his message because he's saying, see, you
gave me all of this last week, all this tithing,
(12:56):
all this offering, and now look at this brand deal.
You just got this right. And it sort of happened
at this perfect flash point during the pandemic when everybody
was kind of home. TikTok was exploding, people were seeking
this content out, so it's sort of this perfect storm.
Speaker 1 (13:14):
Family is a recurring theme in this series, you know,
the bond with these kids with each other, but also
the bond with families. And you now have also two
pairs of sisters in the documentary. So let's start with
one of those, Miranda and Melanie Wilking, their parents Dean
and Kelly. So I'm curious. You know, we heard a
(13:35):
little bit about this in the documentary, but their story
really broke through because they spoke out, I think in
the very medium on which Miranda and Melanie sort of
found fame. Can you talk about the breakthrough of their story,
why it broke through, and how it amplified the seven
m story? Jessica like, can you talk about that moment?
Speaker 3 (13:53):
Yeah, So it's rare.
Speaker 2 (13:56):
It's rare that you see a family be so vulnerable
and willing to go on an Instagram live and kind
of put that all out there.
Speaker 3 (14:04):
We don't know what to do anymore. I love this
girl right here. She has been our rock and she
is our pride and joy. But we have two daughters.
Speaker 2 (14:15):
We don't just have one, and we will not fight
the staff fighting for our other one too.
Speaker 3 (14:21):
No, no way, they messed with the wrong family.
Speaker 4 (14:24):
We're not going away.
Speaker 2 (14:25):
It's important that people know that the Wilkins had tried
to get in contact with Miranda for a little over
a year, so there was that distance that was happening
for quite some time. So really that Instagram life for them,
it felt like their last hope. And so even though
that's where it started. The backstory for them is much
(14:45):
further than that. So we were made aware of it,
and I think just naturally how social media works now,
it's just things go viral, and when you see a
family being viral, when you know that these young women
had had quite a bit of a following, it just
started to like spread like wildfire. So one social account
picked it up, another social account, then you had big
(15:07):
media outlets picking it up as well. So I think
that was just the kind of catalyst to everything unraveling
at that point. So I think it picked up even
faster than they had even imagined and that they had
ever thought, because ultimately their objective was just to get
back in contact with their daughter, So it was never
for any of this. This was not what was motivating
(15:29):
them by any means. If anything, was kind of quite
the opposite. They were quite hesitant and fearful that any
more exposure would lose more contact with their daughter because
after the live there was a lot of repercussions. There
was a lot of divide that was happening between Miranda
and the family, even more so than they had already
been experiencing. So that was really difficult for them to navigate.
(15:50):
But yes, I think the live was their kind of
last ditch effort to try to get in contact with
the Miranda, to reconnect with her in some way, and
then all of these other accounts just picked it up
and then it went viral way faster than they had
even imagined.
Speaker 1 (16:06):
Now, before they did the live, I noticed that Melanie
was keeping up a ruse of sorts, as if she
and Miranda still had a good relationship and as if
Miranda was taking a break and could come back. Was
that an attempt to sort of like keep the door open,
just sort of say, like, I didn't think she was
keeping up the ruse, by the way, in order to
keep the brand alive and keep making money, because when
(16:27):
you look at it after you sort of see what happened,
it really sort of seems like maybe she'll come back,
Maybe she'll come back.
Speaker 3 (16:35):
Am I reading that right? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (16:37):
I think it was always about reconnecting, and so Melanie never,
from our conversations, she never wanted to separate from her sister,
and so I think, yes, it was about keeping that
door open in hopes that they would reconnect.
Speaker 4 (16:51):
Imagine being I have two sons who are very close
they're much younger, obviously five and two years old, but
they're very, very close. We have a very tight knit family,
and I'm trying to imagine the experience of one of
them dropping off the face of the map that on
its own would be horrifying, but then to see them
(17:12):
posting content day after day, so I can see that
they're alive. I can see in many ways they're thriving
every single day. They're posting new videos. But they've changed
their phone number, they've changed their address, they're not responding
to texts, emails, phone calls. I don't even know where
they are. I can't even go knock on the door
if I wanted to. I'm trying to imagine what that
(17:33):
experience might feel like, and that's something we wanted to
try and show in the movie. And so from Melanie's perspective,
of course, I think she wanted to keep the door open,
but also what other choice did she have. The goal
was not to go public with this. They didn't have
new content to post, So her two options are go
public and let the world know, or keep up the
(17:56):
ruse and keep the door open and hope that she
can work some thing out with her sister, and she
tried that for as long as she possibly could, and
as just said, they were doing everything they could behind
the scenes, and it was out of pure desperation, you know,
that they finally went live as a sort of last
ditch attempt to reach their daughter, and they did right.
(18:16):
It provoked a response, and they weren't looking for a
big public drama, but that really did come out of
having no other options, nowhere else to go, right.
Speaker 1 (18:26):
So, Derek, your documentary makes a big shift, you said,
the stage, Dean and Kelly sort of recreate for us
the investigations that they did, you know, trying to find
out where Miranda was. But then there's this shift in
the documentary where it becomes more of a real time story.
Speaker 3 (18:42):
Can you talk about that.
Speaker 1 (18:43):
Were they reluctant to sort of let the cameras in
on their real time experiences or were they were they
were they willing to do that knowing that the camera
being present made a difference the last time that they
wanted their story to be a public one and hoping
to make a breakthrough.
Speaker 4 (18:59):
It was part of the vision from the very beginning,
and we spent Jess and I both spent so many
hours with all of the subjects before we started rolling cameras,
so that when we were there with cameras that trust
had been established, that comfort level had been established. It
was really important for us to show in real time
(19:22):
what it feels like to lose a loved one and
to desperately and try and get them out.
Speaker 3 (19:28):
Everything gets worse, but as.
Speaker 4 (19:33):
Loving parents, what can we do or how can we
get them back?
Speaker 3 (19:40):
The goal these adult children is to keep the minds
of communication open.
Speaker 4 (19:47):
That I think separates this from you know, the dozen
or so other cult documentaries that are out there, which
are generally retrospective looks back. But we came into the
story as it was evolving and was really important for
us to capture it in real time and create an
experience for the audience that felt very human and visceral,
(20:09):
and allow them to see the pain and desperation that
the families are going through, not just see it, but
feel it and live it with them, because ultimately that
is then something I think that becomes much more relatable
and ultimately, you know, drives a more urgent call to action.
(20:29):
So no, that was something that we had talked about
from the very beginning, and ultimately the decision for the
families to participate was out of a wanting desperately to
do anything they could to reunite their families, and this
being that sort of last ditch sort of hope that
maybe if they told their story and in some ways
(20:52):
use the film to talk directly to their daughters in
the Wilking case or son and the Rihano case, that
maybe they'd be able to break through in a way
they hadn't, you know, with all of their other attempts
in the past. And also to help others who are
out there going through a similar experience. I think it
was really important for them to say this is our
experience and we want to be a cautionary tale of sorts.
(21:16):
And also, finally, I'll just add that from a production standpoint,
you know, often those Verita shoots, the sort of fly
on the Wall shoots, were just a three person crew,
you know, me, Jess and a sound person. We didn't
come in with you know, lights and a DP and
various crew members that you might typically expect. It was
very very small and intimate and the same three people
(21:37):
that were there day in and day out, so that
we could always sort of stay within what the subjects
were comfortable with.
Speaker 2 (21:44):
It was while we were having those conversations, it was
wanting the audience to feel what we were feeling in
the moment, and that was there was so many oh
shit moments, if you will, along the way as we
started to investigate this. I mean when the day dancers
got out, we were already months into the development and
the conversations, and it wasn't initially that they were going
(22:07):
to be a part of this because they were all
still in there.
Speaker 3 (22:09):
That was the hope.
Speaker 4 (22:11):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (22:11):
And so when the dancers got.
Speaker 2 (22:12):
Out, it was this moment that, oh my gosh, there's
dancers getting out. And of course, even from our perspective,
were like, is this real?
Speaker 3 (22:20):
Is this the ruse?
Speaker 2 (22:21):
Because whenever it seemed that social media would state something
about Robert, there seemed to have been a response from
Robert's side. So even we were like, is this real?
Did the dancers really get out? And so sitting down
with Kalia and I actually met her in Vegas and
we sat down in a fuss shop for a few
hours that had conversations. We both had our guards up
(22:41):
because she had heard about this media from Robert and
how essentially for lack of better words, we're the bad guys.
And I had my guard up because I wasn't sure
if this was me being pulled into one of Robert's
schemes if you will.
Speaker 1 (22:55):
Right, no, right, the schemes that we hear about in
his audio that we hear in the film. So I
have a question about the art of this. I have
watched a lot of documentaries with a lot of b roll,
and what you have here, and something that you've created
here is really really special. You have these interstitial, gorgeous
dance scenes with some of your subjects. You have them
(23:17):
with Melanie, you have them with former church members. It
really reminds me as if you were that you're not
just talking about young people who were involved in something
really really scary and they are victims of something, but
that they are also exceptionally talented young people. They're just
exceptional in many ways. I would love to hear about
the decision to do it that way and what it
(23:39):
was like filming those Sure.
Speaker 4 (23:41):
What I've learned as a doc filmmaker is that often
the most powerful moments are what's read between the lines.
Often it's a look on somebody's face, where it's the
way that a line is delivered. Often I do a
lot of writing as I'm editing, but then you get
into the the actual editing process and you realize that
(24:04):
it's not just about the words that are being said
and what's on the page, but how it's felt and interpreted.
And again, sometimes it's about what's not said. And so
when we started this process knowing that we were going to,
especially once more of the dancers sort of signed on
to the project and agreed to tell their stories, it
was sort of immediate for Justin and I to allow
(24:27):
their dancing to help tell their story. Right. It is
one of the oldest forms of self expression, something that
we as humans have been doing for thousands of years,
and so it was really important for us to allow
them to tell their own story, not only in their
own words, but true this form of self expression. And
that was something, of course that they were all really
(24:48):
excited about, you know, invariably that we used in almost
all of these scenes or the moments where they're just freestyling, right.
Some of them came with sort of choreographed pieces, but
we talked through the emotions that we were hoping to convey.
We talked through what scenes we were going to be
using this dance footage for so that was something that
was in their mind. And then we started throwing sort
(25:10):
of curve balls at them and playing different music than
they had prepared, and that's where we got I think,
the best stuff because it was raw and honest and
from the heart, and you really feel that emotion and
it says so much more than can be said in
words because it is coming straight from the heart. It
is their sort of purest expression of how they're feeling.
Speaker 1 (25:30):
So later in the series, we meet another pair of
sisters integral to the story, Melanie and Priscilla, and their
involvement goes back to the early days of the Chicaina Church.
Priscilla stayed for many years, but Melanie got out. She
reveals that Shin's bagdis back then, you know, weren't just financial,
but they included coerced sex, sexual assault. Are these allegations
(25:52):
that were well publicized before your series.
Speaker 4 (25:54):
Well, Priscilla and her sister, you know, many of the
older members weren't the focus of a lot of the
press coverage, So I think some of the details that
we reveal in the show hadn't been publicized. That said,
there were a lot of brave voices who had come forward.
Kylie's experience had been publicized, so some of the allegations
(26:17):
were out there. Some of the reporting done by you know,
some of the internet sleuths and reporters that you see
in the show had uncovered some of that information. So
some of it was out there. But I don't think
the details that we sort of uncover in the show
were out there. And even since, I've heard more allegations
(26:38):
that have come directly to me from former members who
didn't participate in the documentary who've shared their.
Speaker 3 (26:44):
Experiences as well.
Speaker 2 (26:45):
There were some of the slu's accounts, and there were
some reporters that had spoke about it, it wasn't really widespread.
Speaker 3 (26:53):
A lot of people didn't really know about it.
Speaker 2 (26:55):
But outside of the Lee sisters and Kylie's account, there
were more people that had come forward that weren't a
part of the doc that spoke out about their abuses,
and we had conversations with other women that had chosen
not to be a part of the documentary but have
maybe spoken to different media outlets. But it wasn't highly
I mean, it wasn't fully out there, but because it
(27:17):
was a story in real time, We just slowly started
to see people come forward, and we actually had some
women say like, thank you for speaking out. I thought
I would never talk about this, like I had put
it away and thought I would just live with this
for the rest of my life, and it gave them
an opportunity to share their side of the story. It
was there here and there, but not highly publicized.
Speaker 1 (27:39):
Jessica, can you talk about what seems to be a
really complicated relationship between Melanie and Priscilla. Loving relationship, but
a complicated relationship in particular. I'm thinking of the scene
where they have this argument in public. They both have
strong feelings, you know, about themselves, about their experiences in
this cult and their implicated feelings. Priscilla in particular expresses
(28:03):
some very complicated feelings. What was it like being there
for that conversation? What was it like, you know, watching
the film back.
Speaker 2 (28:11):
I'll be honest, I was very emotional throughout this entire process.
I think I cried more doing this project and in
the last two years than I have. It's so real
and it's honest, and there's growth that's happening. There's a
lot of hurt that people are expressing, and when we
as content creators are there for this. I feel for
(28:35):
them on a different level, just because that vulnerability is
very hard to ask if people, let alone ask if
those people while a camera is in a room, Like
Derek said, we were pretty lean and mean. So Derek
was really great at letting people have that space. So
you can feel that we were in the room. But
it's family. It's two sisters that love each other so
(28:56):
much that it's hard to kind of navigate those feelings
at times, and those emotions go from anger to hurt
to happiness in a second.
Speaker 1 (29:07):
I don't know what it means to care about a child.
Speaker 3 (29:13):
How can you get mad me?
Speaker 2 (29:16):
Look at me?
Speaker 4 (29:17):
Money?
Speaker 3 (29:19):
How can you put the border on me?
Speaker 5 (29:23):
I told you everything. I want to die, and you
want me to fucking be on time when you sit
on his birthday?
Speaker 3 (29:28):
Boys, I'm sorry because I'm late. That is show up boy, Kilo,
I said, which one do you want.
Speaker 1 (29:34):
Me to do?
Speaker 4 (29:36):
It was really important for us to show the audience
the experience of reconciliation, family reconciliation. How I think my
perception at least coming into this was, you know, you
get out of a situation like that and you're just
running back into the open arms of your parents and siblings,
so grateful and happy to be out and sort of
(29:57):
find your freedom again. And it's obviously now obvious to me,
but not at the time, and I think won't be
obvious to our audience that it's much more complicated than that.
You know, you're coming out a shell of yourself, trying
to pick up the pieces, trying to rediscover who you are,
what you believe, your place in the world, your place
within your own family. And so we had observed as
(30:20):
Priscilla and Melanie were trying to rebuild their relationship, they
were making a lot of strides, but it never really
had that serious sort of heart to heart conversation. The
sort of bravery it took to ultimately have that conversation
while we were there in the room with the cameras
rolling was painful but beautiful. You know, it's something I
(30:44):
think we can all relate to, you know, with our
own families, we go through those experiences and if you
have that sort of enduring love, you come out the
other side stronger. And in that moment, while there was
a lot of vulnerability and pain on display, to see
them work through that in real time and come out
the other side more connected, and a deepening of their
(31:05):
relationship was profound.
Speaker 1 (31:12):
Shin seems to have a strategy to keep members of
his cult from reconciling with their families and to keep
the cult intact, which is to say to the members
of his church, visit your families, talk to them, but
limit conversation about us. Just give them a little bit
and keep them at an arm's length. And we see
this really complicated scene again where Miranda re engages with
(31:36):
her family at Christmas, and at other times we see
this Christmas scene and then we hear her mom say,
you know, she wants the visits to go, well, she
just wants to see her daughter, so she will continue
to pretend I really just wanted to be like come
in and just like forget everything, and let's just almost
pretend like nothing happened, you know, like just.
Speaker 4 (31:58):
To that's all.
Speaker 3 (32:00):
That's all we've ever done.
Speaker 4 (32:03):
What's that That's how we've averatize.
Speaker 3 (32:05):
It's just person like nothing happened.
Speaker 2 (32:11):
Well, yeah, because the only times you've ever said anything,
she said, I'm not going to see you again if
you keep talking about it.
Speaker 1 (32:19):
Right, And Melanie and her dad seem really frustrated by this.
So to some extent it shows me that Shin's technique
is working, but it also shows that this family is
stuck in this phase of non reconciliation. Yet they're also
making this film with you, which I know is going
to shift things. So how did that feel for you
(32:39):
to be in that moment because it is so layered,
and as a viewer, you're experiencing it with them, you know,
watching them play this play and also knowing that they're
making this film at the same time.
Speaker 4 (32:52):
Gosh, yeah, yes, I mean, you know, it's a it's
a hard question to answer. You know, again, I sort
of go back to asking the audience to put themselves
in their shoes. You know, what would you do in
that situation where you're so desperate to resume your relationship,
to have contact with your daughter or your sister or
(33:14):
your son, and to then be sort of granted that access.
So you're grateful to now, you know, have the thing
that you've been fighting for for over a year, but
to know that it is under the control and ultimately
manipulation of this other person, that he's the one behind
the scenes pulling the strings, and that he's using that
(33:38):
as a way to sort of deepen his control over
his members by telling them that, you know, you're cutting
them off to save them right, to allow them to
get to heaven, and then only sort of allowing them
access and sort of back into their lives, to sort
of keep the family satiated, to keep them at bay.
(33:58):
And the families know that, yet it's still incredibly complicated
and painful again because they crave that connection more than anything,
and so they'll take it even though they know that
while the interaction might be genuine, it is still part
of a larger manipulation by Robert and part of his
larger control. I'm at a loss trying to verbalize how
(34:24):
that must feel for these parents.
Speaker 1 (34:26):
But Jessica, you know that this series is also like
a bigger version of that Instagram Live in many ways
for this family, right.
Speaker 3 (34:34):
Yeah, like the Instagram Live.
Speaker 2 (34:36):
It wasn't easy, like you were saying with Christmas, that
was hard for us to be there in that moment.
Speaker 3 (34:42):
They didn't know whether or not Miranda.
Speaker 2 (34:44):
I mean, they had seen this before where she says
one thing and then maybe she has to cancel, and
you know, again you have this puppeteer if you will
and Robert's really controlling that they were on edge.
Speaker 3 (34:56):
They had this whole conversation of like, do you think
she's going to come?
Speaker 2 (34:59):
Are they going to make an excuse because the snowstorm's
coming in, and like, I can't even imagine what that's like.
That everything that you do you have to think about
what that other person might be saying on the other end.
So having us in the room, having us be there
was really difficult for them too, because they felt that
it was maybe not being fully transparent, and as a
(35:20):
family that had always been so close knit, that wasn't
easy for them. Ultimately, they did tell Miranda they were
a part of this project because they didn't want to
feel that anymore. They didn't want to feel that they
were playing two sides in any sort of way. But
they also wanted her to know that they were doing
this in hopes that she would see it, in hopes
that she would maybe see Robert for who we've learned
(35:43):
he is and ultimately maybe get out of that controlled environment.
Speaker 4 (35:47):
And also to see I would just add, to see
the love that they have and to really sort of
hopefully see their perspective and POV and all of this,
because the way that they have interpreted the actions of
their parents has been filtered through what Robert tells them,
you know, and so this again is sort of that
opportunity to show their kids that and their family like,
(36:09):
this is really who we are and what you know. Again,
like sort of to have the opportunity to speak directly
to them, this is what we want you to hear,
and this is why we're doing this.
Speaker 1 (36:20):
I thought one of the most moving moments was seeing
Melanie talk about how she's kind of a prisoner of
this cult too, and she feels a little bit controlled
by the situation, and that was really astounding moment. And
you know, I found myself wondering what Miranda is going
to think and feel when she sees that as well.
Derek Donin and Jessica Ascevedo. The series is Dancing for
(36:42):
the Devil, the Seven m TikTok Cult. Thank you so
much for joining me on the podcast to talk about it.
It's a fascinating conversation and a fascinating series. I really
really enjoyed watching it and speaking with you about it.
Speaker 4 (36:52):
It's been a pleasure.
Speaker 3 (36:52):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 4 (36:53):
Thanks so much for having us.
Speaker 1 (36:55):
That's it for this week's episode. Thanks again to Derek
Doning and Jessica Assevedo. More of my takes, check out
my other podcast, Crime Writers. On Each week, on that show,
we break down the latest and true crime documentaries, TV shows, podcasts,
and pop culture. If you like you Can't make this up,
please rate and review this show and share it with
your friends. Find us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever
(37:16):
you're listening right now, and make sure to follow the
show to stay tuned for all new episodes. You can't
make this up. As a production of Netflix, I'm Rebecca Lavoy.
Thanks so much for listening.
Hosts And Creators
Jessica Acevedo
Kailea Gray
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