October 31, 2024 • 36 mins
In this episode, we chat with Dr. Quincee Gideon, a psychologist and therapist, about the factors that attract individuals to controlled communities and what drives them to seek escape. We examine Shekinah Church and 7M Films, highlighting how these organizations stand apart from other cult-like groups. Additionally, we provide insights into effective solutions and ways to support those entangled in high-control environments. Join us for an enlightening discussion on this vital topic!
Forgive Me For I Have Followed continues the exploration from Netflix’s hit Dancing for the Devil documentary series by delving deeper into the personal stories of those affected by Robert Shinn, Shekinah Church, and 7M Films. We will focus on the experiences of victims and their families, address urgent questions raised in the documentary, and gather insights from former members and dancers. Our goal is to uncover strategies for combating abuse and ensuring that controlling, cult-like communities are held accountable for their actions.
*The following is based on actual events. Certain composite and representative materials and characters have been used for dramatic purposes.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
When we talk about how people get out of these
groups and how they heal. That's part of the deep processing,
realizing that your actions are always imperfect and you're doing
the best you can with the information that you have,
and it's not some reflection of some broken part inside
of you. But boy, where we taught that.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Welcome back to forgive me for I have followed. I'm
Jess Costebetto and.
Speaker 3 (00:28):
I'm Clia Gray. Our series explores the story of Robert Chin,
the Eli Basha kind of Church, and seven M films.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
I'm excited about this week's guest. You know, we've had
a lot of conversations so far and they've been super
enlightening and really powerful, but thought it would be great
to get a little more context on the psychology level
and what attracts people to these high controlled groups and
the challenges that people face when they get out of that.
(00:55):
And also for allies and family members, what is that
experience like and what's maybe some the advice that we
can get.
Speaker 3 (01:01):
And also even just the general public, because there are
a lot of people that are tuned into this story
that it might help them understand a little bit better.
Because I've seen that a lot in the comments of like, oh,
I just don't get it. And so I think having
someone that can really speak to more of like the
social the psychological aspect of it to give more like
understanding to it, and even for me myself and my
(01:22):
own healing journey, I have my own like question. So
I'm very excited for this.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
So today we're speaking with doctor Quincy Gideon, doctor of
psychology and therapists who specializes in religious trauma. She also
aid survivors of high control groups to regain and rebuild
their lives.
Speaker 3 (01:41):
Yeah, let's get started with our conversation with doctor Gideon.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
Well, thank you for doing this with us today. I
think initially when we had met, it was because your
page was shared with me by one of the parents
and they were looking to your page for answers and
they had a lot of peace and calming in that.
And so, Cleia, we had filmed with doctor Gideon a
few sessions because one of the parents wanted to meet
(02:12):
with her while she was in town and just had
so many questions and doctor Gideon was absolutely amazing for
helping kind of walk her through a few of those
things and helping participate. But ultimately we weren't able to
see that in the documentary, but I thought it was
so powerful and it was some of the most powerful
stuff that we had filmed, and elements that we really
noticed that the parents had kept throughout the entire process.
(02:32):
So I just wanted to give a little context for
Khalia and everyone else of how we all know each other.
But yes, your Instagram page and what you do is
absolutely amazing. So thank you again.
Speaker 1 (02:44):
Well, thank you, it's a privilege to be here. Thanks
for having me.
Speaker 2 (02:47):
So can you share with us a little bit about
your own experience in high controlled groups and what motivates
you to support others facing similar challenges.
Speaker 1 (02:56):
Sure. So I grew up in what you would call
a fundamental badge church, which you know, they kind of
run the gamut. They have a very different presentation depending
on where they are in the country, who's leading that congregation,
but essentially they take a very hard line look at
some of the quote rules that they feel like are
(03:18):
very explicit in the Bible, and mostly that results in
the oppression of women, and it results in a whole
lot of sanctifying and looking towards men to be sort
of the ultimate deciders of fate. Deciders of most things
that go on in life, including like the family structure
and the decisions that are made and who works and
(03:40):
where does the money go and how many children are there,
Like all of those decisions kind of fall on men.
So I grew up in this environment that was chronically
telling me that my options in life were to be
a wife and a mother or a missionary. They actually
gave you that option. You could go off to another
country and tell people the quote unquote good news about God,
(04:03):
our faith, the religion that I was a part of,
And those were my two options. And there was a
lot of rules, a lot of rules like the way
that you dated, you don't date, you court. It's very
dugg Or esque. If anyone has sort of seen how
that has played out on TLC for generations now, you
see that it's highly restrictive. Everything is sort of fear based,
(04:27):
like we're so afraid that, you know, these kids are
going to become this or they might behave in this way,
and so it's really fear mongering. There's a lot of
that that goes on in the background. Ultimately, there were
kind of some ways in which it impacted my insights,
which were you know, a lot of worry and fear
about the future. I participated in my own oppression, so
(04:50):
I got to a point to where I had sort
of internalized the message so much that I didn't actually
need to be a part of a repressive group anymore.
I could do that all by myself. And then externally,
there were some big consequences. I married the man that
I was supposed to marry according to this church, and
it was horrible. It was abusive in a lot of ways.
(05:12):
He was not straight. I was not aware of that
for a very long time, and obviously that ended really
terribly and there were a lot of consequences to that.
My entire life kind of blew up. And when it
blew up, I had to look at kind of what
had happened and say, I followed all of the rules
(05:33):
and it didn't protect me. I participated in my own
repression because I was so afraid of my power as
a woman. I was told that that was such a
fearful thing. Turns out I still got my heart broken.
Turns out my life is still a mess, and everything
fell apart. So it was sort of a long line
to get to this place, right, But it was a
(05:54):
deeply lived experience for me, and I think once I
came out of it, I just decided that my entire
goal in life is to inoculate people from getting into
these groups. I want people to feel like they have
space to sort of sit back and observe for a
while and see if this is something that they want
to join. I want people to have language for how
(06:14):
they ask questions and how they show up in these groups,
how they challenge the leader, and when they start to
feel kind of yucky, they walk away, and they don't
feel like that's a reflection of them, It's just a
reflection of what they're willing to put up with in
this world.
Speaker 3 (06:27):
Beautifully said, I am in full support of everything that
you are doing with your platform and how you're deciding
to really support other people that are facing challenges like
this and things that I've gone through. What parallels have
you seen in your line of work amongst individuals in
these high controlled situations.
Speaker 1 (06:47):
I think the first thing I look for, and I
teach people to look for, is fear, because it will
be evasive. It's like a terrible plant that you can't
get rid of. It just grows everywhere, and it will
be fear of what happens in relationships, fear of what
happens when you step outside the group, fear of what
happens when you challenge a leader, fear of what happens
(07:07):
when you think I want to be a little bit
separate from this group. Fear of how you spend money,
fear of where you spend your time. And so I
think that that's the first thing that people can look at,
is they can maybe sit back and think, what is
the primary thing that I feel most moments of the day.
And if in multiple spaces, you're feeling a whole lot
(07:29):
of fear, I would start asking questions like, how is
this group contributing to that? How are the messages that
I'm sitting here and listening to every week contributing to
this fear that just keeps growing, Right, because it's fear
of this very elusive thing. It'll be fear of hell,
It'll be fear of the afterlife, It'll be fear of
a god that you don't have interaction with every day. Right,
(07:52):
It's this very elusive thing that we're taught to fear.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
Absolutely, Doctor Giddy and I know that we had had
some conversations during the filming of the documentary, But what
were your initial impressions after seeing it and having been
a little bit in it and having conversations with people
throughout the filming, was there anything that surprised you.
Speaker 1 (08:15):
This is one of my favorite things to talk about,
because I want to make coercive groups and high control
groups un sexy in some way because they all follow
a script. So truly, when I watch documentaries, I am
in the background going yes, yes, say more of that
because that's helpful. So I'm like cheering along. But absolutely
(08:37):
none of it is surprising. There is nothing that this
church has done or the leadership has done, that is
outside of the bounds of what is typically done in
these circumstances. You can just fill in the blanks and
it happens over and over and over again. Which is
not to say that the people that get pulled in
(08:57):
are somehow uneducated or goal or anything like that. It's
just to say that we aren't talking enough about how
these groups work in order to inoculate people from getting
into them. We still think that each one of them
is doing something different and new and nuanced, and it's
just not true. They're just all following a script.
Speaker 3 (09:18):
And that's what was so surprising for me coming out
of it was hearing how similar all of these groups are,
and that was something that I had heard someone say.
It was like, it's like they pass out a pamphlet
and all of these leaders just have access to this
pamphlet because they're doing the same thing and the same tactics.
Are there any common traps that you see for people
that end up in these cult like communities?
Speaker 1 (09:40):
So research sort of shows that there are a couple
of things that we like to look for. Number One,
there's usually a big life shift that has happened, So
there might be a breakup. There might be a divorce,
a death, getting laid off, something that causes someone to
go out in the world and look for something to
I'll either relieve the pain that they're in or make
(10:02):
sense of the pain. Not everyone is in a whole
lot of pain in those moments, but they might be
more open to like, why do things like this happen?
Why did I even want to get married? And then
you walk into a space where there's a leader that says,
I have all the answers for you. Let me break
it down for you. And they're usually pretty concise about
(10:23):
how they break that down. They usually center themselves on
being a part of the solution right to that pain
or that upset in some way, and they will also
align other things that you've used in the past to cope,
and so that starts to set them apart. And when
you're in these moments in life, you're going to look
at something like that and you're going to say, well,
(10:43):
I've tried it every other way, so maybe I'm the problem,
and maybe they have a solution that I have not
thought of yet. So we're already kind of giving them
credence when they haven't earned it, just by them differentiating
themselves a little bit from the pack from other things
that we've tried in the past. So there's usually some
life transition that's happened. The other thing that can go
(11:06):
on is that typically folks that get into these groups
have a desire to make the world a better place.
So that thing that we want in every single human
we desire it. We need people to be good people
that want the world to be a better place. They
are more apt to getting pulled into groups like this
(11:28):
because these groups promise that we are making the world
a better place, We're saving people from hell, right, So
even the character that might be on the main stage,
even if that person is not lovable in some way,
the overall desire of the group to make the world
a better place, to save people from themselves, to make
(11:48):
suffering go away, to get people into heaven, like whatever
the selling point is. Folks that want the world to
be a better place are going to be a little
bit more apt to say yes to a group like that.
You combine those two things and you've kind of got
a recipe for a whole lot of manipulation and coercion.
Speaker 3 (12:06):
Honestly, that made me a little emotional because I'm just
thinking about a lot of my friends that are still there,
and you know, those qualities are within them. They do
want to make the world a better place. They are
very kind hearted. I even think not to speak for everybody,
but you know, COVID had just happened, and a lot
of the dancers that we were working with now it's
like the work that they did, they had to find
a whole different way, And so it even has me wondering, like,
(12:28):
outside of this situation, there must have been so many
other like groups and cult like communities that really capitalized
on the disaster that was COVID.
Speaker 2 (12:39):
That makes so much sense that it would target this
life transitional moment. But also it is good people. And
that's what's so heartbreaking about it is that you have
someone taking advantage of good people and then knowing that
those people then have to work through that for however
long it takes them when they get out of a
(12:59):
sitchuation like that, And that really breaks my heart that
someone can see that and take advantage of that. But
it makes perfect sense.
Speaker 1 (13:07):
Yeah, if anyone is sort of out there in the
world thinking I really do long for a better world,
I think that is just an invitation to take a
beat before you join anything. I mean, this is part
of the inoculation, right, just take a second before you
join anything, because it's going to feel so good for
you to walk into a group that promises something, and
(13:30):
you're more likely to kind of miss some of the
red flags. We all would. This is human behavior. This
is nothing to be mad at yourself over. It's just
something to know that you're going to need to protect
yourself a little bit more from.
Speaker 3 (13:44):
After the break, we continue our conversation with doctor Gideon.
This is forgive me for I have followed. We'll be
right back.
Speaker 2 (13:55):
Welcome back to forgive me for I have followed. Now
back to our conversation with doctor Gideon. Doctor Gidden, you've
mentioned inoculate a couple times in our conversation. What do
you mean by that?
Speaker 1 (14:07):
So inoculation is just this idea of protecting someone from
getting sick in the future. So it initially kind of
came about with vaccinations, Right, we like, expose someone to
something and it prevents them from getting sick in the future.
So when we think about inoculating someone against saying yes
to some of these groups, what I mean by that
(14:28):
is exposing them to the information that takes the power
away from these groups. So when someone you know, kind
of shows up to these churches or shows up to
these groups and they hear some of the things that
we have sort of prepped them with, right, We've said
some of this information that that person might sit there
and be like, hmm, this is not for me, thank
(14:48):
you so much, goodbye, and they're able to walk away
from that because they're empowered with the information that we're
giving them.
Speaker 3 (14:55):
I guess got to switch gears a little bit. When
we were prepping for this episode. There was a phrase
that really stood out to me and I would love
to hear a little bit more about it was the
concept of cult hopping. There's some individuals that had been
in a prior situation that was very similar to the
one that we were in. So it's just like kind
of this transition from one cult like group to another
cult like group. So could you explain a little bit
(15:17):
more about that. I'm very intrigued.
Speaker 1 (15:19):
Yeah, totally. So it kind of goes back to those
needs that we were just talking about, that there's a
life transition. You're wanting more from the world. You want to,
you know, change the world for the better, and this
group offers that, and then you decide somewhere along the
way that this group is actually unhealthy, but you don't
address what is going on that got you into that
(15:42):
place in the first place, right into that like vulnerable space.
I will also say that cult hopping at the bottom
of all of this is that need, right, and these
groups kind of function in the same way, but inevitably
the next group will be just enough different. Just think
about like that maybe terrible relationship pattern you might have
(16:02):
been in where you're like, I am so tired of
dating people that do X, Y and Z and the
next person. It's like they never do X, Y and Z.
They do, they just do a different version of it,
but it looks different enough that we kind of get
pulled in. This is the same pattern that's playing out
with just group dynamics rather than relational dynamics. You're not
(16:22):
addressing what kind of pulls you to that person, that group,
that thing that they're promising, and so you'll get into
another group. They'll look different at first, and then you'll
discover that they're not different at all.
Speaker 3 (16:35):
That was really beautifully said. It's the lack of reflection,
because that is some of the things that I've heard
from some of the members is that refusal almost to reflect.
So when half of us had left, there were people
that were like, I'm going to die on this hill.
Speaker 1 (16:48):
I just want to say a little bit about how
dangerous self reflection feels. When you're in a group like this,
you are taught that self reflection, the feelings that you
have going with your gut is actually the most dangerous
thing that you can do because it lends to your
evil side, right, and that you actually have to listen
to the leadership, listen to scripture, listen to anyone outside
(17:12):
of yourself to get guidance on what you should do next,
because you cannot trust yourself. So self reflection is actually
one of those things that these cult like groups will
take away from members because it makes them more likely
to stay in for a long time. And so if
you think about that, not only have they been taught
that it's dangerous, but it actually feels quite dangerous because
(17:33):
then you're going to have to pay attention to how
you participated not only in your own oppression, but also
the oppression of others, and that breaks people. That is
such a hard thing that we as members of these
groups eventually have to come to the understanding that we
(17:53):
participated in the pain of other people, by recruiting, by
bringing people in, talking them out of leaving, by all
of these things, right, we have to pay attention to that.
We have to admit that and take accountability. And when
you're still in the group and you're still living according
to what these groups are telling you to do, like
avoid self reflection, this becomes the most dangerous thing that
(18:17):
you can do.
Speaker 2 (18:18):
Yeah, and I think with this group too, and CLEI,
I'm sure you can speak more to this. Is that
there's the mentorship program that's in place.
Speaker 1 (18:25):
And so it's.
Speaker 2 (18:26):
Interesting too, because your meant to always want to trust
your gut and then to have someone say like, don't
trust your gut. That's ultimately the things that are negative,
and that's the evil that's trying to push you into
a different direction. That can be very confusing. And I
think Clea you mentioned you know, at some point when
people were wanting to leave, some people said, I'm dying
on this hill. Do you think that the mentor's involvement
(18:47):
in the church had anything to contribute with some of
those people staying?
Speaker 1 (18:51):
Yeah. I think that most of these groups actually have
some sort of mentorship program because the leader has given
these messages so consistently that people have internalized them, and
then they go out and they do the quote dirty
work of the leader. Right, So there's kind of this
hierarchy that usually develops in groups like this, and the
(19:11):
mentorship programs usually function in two different ways. Number one,
to disseminate this information so that the leader doesn't have
to do all of this work anymore. Right, they can
sort of wash their hands and even kind of separate
themselves like well, I didn't say that, or I didn't
do that. I don't hurt people. I just bring the
good message of what God wants me to say, right,
so they kind of have a separation. And then secondly
(19:35):
it functions as a confessional. So let me break that down.
There are ways in which these groups function to participate
in mind control and thought reform. This is an idea
that was put forward by Robert liften years ago whenever
he was researching folks in China in how their thoughts
(19:55):
actually changed after years of being in coercive environments. And
so we look at some of these factors. There's eight
factors and thought control, and one of them is forced
confession or confession, and so this can mean a couple
of different things. We saw this in other groups like
NEXTM and things like that, where people would tell on
(20:16):
each other. Right, So you then became really nervous about
who was watching you, who was seeing your behavior, Who's
going to catch me doing something? And it actually worked
really well for getting people's behavior in line, right, because
anyone could tell on you. It's not just the leader
seeing you, it's not just the parent seeing you. Now
(20:36):
your siblings are telling on you too. But then there's
usually also in these groups this sort of idea that
you must confess in order to stay good with God.
So then members are also confessing to their sins on themselves.
So now we have a hierarchy of mentorship where you
are having to tell your mentor everything for accountability, everything
(21:01):
that you're doing wrong, and they're telling on you to
the leader, and then you are also participating in the like.
But I need this. This is the only way that
I'm sanctified. This is the only way that I am
a good person. This is the only way that I
stay in God's favor because I again can't trust myself.
My behaviors were always going to bend towards the evil,
(21:22):
bend towards the bad, and I need this amount of
babysitting in order to stay on the right track.
Speaker 3 (21:29):
Is there any advice that you would have for former
cult members like myself to help us with social rehabilitation
things like that.
Speaker 1 (21:38):
Yeah. So the first thing that I recommend for anyone
that has gotten out of a group like this is
just start with your basic needs. You're going to need money,
you're going to need food, you're going to need shelter,
and you're going to need safety. Those are the four
things that we have to get you before you can
do any of the emotional processing. So although when someone
(21:58):
comes out of these groups they had I've typically been
taught that this deep emotional processing where you're mad at
yourself all of the time, is a part of everyday life.
I actually encourage people to not do that for just
a short period of time. Let's just get your basic
needs taken care of, safety being the one that we
have to focus on. If you don't feel safe in
(22:20):
the space that you're staying, if you don't feel safe
like you're not going to have food the next day,
this emotional processing is going to lead to much worse outcomes.
So taking care of those most basic needs is really
where we need to start for anyone that's getting out
of these groups. And the groups kind of run the gamut, right,
So a lot of people will like sign over all
(22:40):
of their financial wealth, right, and they really have nothing.
Some people have been in these groups for so long,
and housing was a part of these groups. They don't
know how to get a lease, they don't even know
how to prove, you know, that they can pay for it.
They don't know how to go out there and get
a job, and so sometimes these things are going to
take longer than just a days or a few weeks,
(23:01):
but they really are necessary before any of the deep
deprogramming happens and the emotional processing happens. Once we have safety,
then we start working on mild reflection. If we don't
need to go deep yet, you just start with the
things that are most obvious to you, maybe the things
(23:22):
that have come up the most often while you're trying
to re establish safety in your life right and getting
those basic needs. Once you've gotten some of those things
like Okay, I don't think I trust what he was
saying anymore. That's the sort of processing I'm talking about,
Like was he a reliable source of information? No, So
those things that keep coming up in my head, I
(23:43):
don't need to trust those right now. I don't need
to listen to those right now. And then once you
kind of have a little bit of momentum you're starting
to feel like you can get through a day without
feeling like you're going to fall apart, then we can
start moving through, you know, the things like we really
got to talk about some thought reform and really to
talk about all of the different layers of coercion that
we're happening and we've really got to talk about how
(24:06):
you might have participated in someone else's oppression and how
that leaves you feeling. Right now, we can start doing
sort of the deeper work now for people that come
into my office and work with my therapists that you know,
kind of specialize in cult recovery and religious trauma. Sometimes
that can take like a year out before you're actually
(24:27):
asking yourself the deeper questions because it took six to
nine months to figure out how to do all of
this like daily living stuff and to feel calm while
doing it. Like that's the that's the big part, is
that we want you to feel like you're not falling
apart every day.
Speaker 2 (24:41):
Do you have any advice on how to maybe mitigate
some of the potential triggers for former members after they've
left a situation like that?
Speaker 1 (24:50):
Yeah, I mean, I think we have to identify where
the triggers lie. So for some people, the triggers are
going to be language, right, Like the words that are
used are going to be extra triggering and on different levels,
Like maybe using the word cult can feel really triggering
to someone. Maybe it's using a phrase right, like they
go out in the world and they hear someone else
(25:12):
say you really have to die to yourself. Now, that
was language that was used inside of the group, right
of Chicina. Okay, that's triggering. We don't need to hear that.
So you need to be aware that you've got to
take yourself out of situations where that's going to come up.
So let me say something that's really hard for people
that come out of these groups, especially if they're religious
in nature. You might need to take a break from
(25:34):
church for a while because the messages that are very
common in churches in our area, that language is going
to be used. Now in your group, it was manipulated
and it was used against you, and so going to
a different church, even if they are not using it
to manipulate you, hearing that same phrase used over and
(25:57):
over and over again is likely going to be triggering.
It's likely going to kind of set you back from
all this hard work that you're doing to kind of
get your life back on track. So you might just
need to take a break from these sort of things. Now,
that seems counterintuitive to a lot of people because when
they get out of these groups, they're thinking, I need community,
I feel so alone. Yes, you do need community. But
(26:18):
likely not at another church that's using the same language
that was used to abuse you.
Speaker 3 (26:23):
That makes sense, you know.
Speaker 2 (26:25):
Throughout this process, I had many conversations and I needed
to be aware of those triggers as well to make
sure that I was navigating those conversations sensitively. At times,
I could just be you know, asking a question, and
maybe I brought up the church's name and that was
a trigger for someone and there's like, please, please don't
say the name of the church, and I had to shift.
(26:46):
It could have been you know, Robert's name, and yes,
I can imagine how die to yourself or if someone
said that, how that could be triggering for a person
in this particular group.
Speaker 1 (26:55):
Yeah, and I'll just say, like ask. This is one
of the things that doesn't happen inside of these groups
is that people are not asked how things are impacting
them negatively, and they're just told like, you're the problem
for feeling that way because I said this thing. Now,
that might be your ego, that might be the evil
inside of you, that might be a lot of different things,
but it's never the problem of the person who said
(27:17):
the triggering thing. And so we've got to like switch
that up and so being a good steward of these
conversations might be just asking, like I saw you sort
of flinch there. Did I say something that was painful?
How could I refer to this group without it being painful?
Is there something I can say? Can I just say
the church? Can I just say the group? Is there
(27:37):
some other way that I can use language that would
be a little bit more supportive? Most people are dying
for you to just ask right when you see their pain.
Speaker 2 (27:49):
When we return the conclusion of our conversation with doctor Gideon,
this is forgive me for I have followed.
Speaker 3 (28:00):
Welcome back to forgive me for I have followed. Here's
the conclusion of our conversation with doctor Gideon.
Speaker 2 (28:07):
Do you think that there are any actions that allies
take that can have the adverse effect when supporting former members?
Speaker 1 (28:16):
Depends on the group. So my advice is to take
imperfect action, ask questions, take a compassionate and curious stance,
and seeing how your actions are perhaps impacting someone, and
then be willing to shift. Because I can sit with
people in my office and I can do the same
(28:37):
thing that I do most of the time, but this
particular person has an adverse response to something that I've
said or done or something, and you just have to
be curious about that. You have to be compassionate about
how it comes up, and then be willing to shift
and knowing that there's no shame in needing to shift
for the person who needs the shift, for the person
(28:59):
who's willing to do the shifting. We're all just trying
to figure this out, but we never want to try
to get this so perfect that we don't take action.
Because people are hurting in these groups and they're dying
for some sort of connection, and we need to be
willing to kind of step into that and mess up
a lot along the way and then be willing to
just sort of like, oh, good to know. I'll change
(29:21):
that and I'll do something different.
Speaker 3 (29:22):
I love that phrase that you use of taking imperfect action,
because one of the things in Chiquina that was talked
about a lot was having to be perfect. The only
people who are allowed in the Kingdom of Christ are perfect.
Speaker 1 (29:36):
Yeah, we somehow in these groups, we're usually taught that
imperfection is somehow a reflection of something really broken inside
of you. And when we talk about how people get
out of these groups and how they heal that's part
of the deep processing, realizing that your actions are always
imperfect and you're doing the best you can with the
information that you have and it's not some reflection of
(29:58):
some broken part and you. But boy, were we taught that.
I did.
Speaker 2 (30:03):
Want to just quickly go back to one thing that
you mentioned along the lines of the hardship of coping
with the idea that someone could have oppressed another person,
because that's one thing that I think a lot about
for people that leave high control groups and how difficult
that must be because they're still victims of this person
or this organization. But then at times those people can
(30:26):
have been sucked in and caught up in situations that
are oppressing other people. So what's an advice that maybe
you would give that person that might have been removing
themselves from that situation but might be struggling with that.
Speaker 1 (30:40):
So when someone is inside of these groups and they
move away from their victimhood and more towards being a perpetrator, right,
because they're kind of contributing to the ongoing pain of
other people now because they've internalized the messages so much.
You know, when we start to look at those sort
of instances, it can be full of shame and guilt
and all kinds of lucky feelings. Right, But if we
(31:02):
can just start to gently have a conversation of I
can acknowledge that your intention was to do X, Y
and Z, save this person, bring them back into the fold,
help them not be in trouble so much with leadership.
That's oftentimes what some of this mentorship stuff is about. Right, Like,
you keep getting yelled at and it's really hard for
me to tolerate. So just do it this way because
(31:23):
the leader won't be so mad at you. You have
a wonderful intention, but that's not the impact. Right. This
is a great parenting lesson for people when your intention
is to do one thing, but the impact that you
have on your child is something totally different. And when
they bring that impact to you, you actually have to say,
I can see that this has had a really negative
(31:44):
impact on you, Like this has hurt you, and that
that in some way does not make you a bad person.
It just means that you were participating in something as
best as you could, and you contributed to someone's pain.
And good luck finding a person out there that has
not contributed to someone's pain. They don't exist, right, so welcome.
You're in humanity now. Your cult group told you that
(32:07):
you should not be a part of humanity, that you
should separate yourself from humanity, that you should be better
than the rest of humanity, and it turns out that
that's not possible. So welcome back into a group of
us that are doing the best we can with the
information that we have, and we mess up. Sometimes this
is like a part of what you're doing. The second
(32:28):
thing that I will say, and this is oftentimes some
of the work that we do in our clinical setting.
It's getting used to the idea that being a perpetrator
does not take away from your victimhood. You are both,
and you are both at the same time, and that
there's no way that we can separate those things because
they were happening simultaneously, and just being allowed to say
(32:51):
that to yourself and accept that in small doses and
go back and sort of look at some of your
behavior and realize, here's my victimhood and and here's where
I was a perpetrator. That can be very very powerful
in someone's healing. It is not the first step to healing.
Please don't start there. Start with taking care of yourself,
right start with some of this, like do I trust
(33:14):
what he says from the pull pit anymore? No? Okay,
then I can stop saying that stuff to myself right
in my everyday life when I'm sitting at a stoplight
just trying to get groceries.
Speaker 3 (33:23):
Right.
Speaker 1 (33:24):
This is like much more in the later part of processing,
but saying some of those things to yourself that I
am both a victim and a perpetrator at the very
same time can be very helpful and empowering.
Speaker 3 (33:35):
So, doctor Gideon, are there any resources that you think
would be really helpful for people regarding these types of situations?
Speaker 1 (33:43):
Yeah? Absolutely, I would say exposing yourself to a little
bit of information as if it comes available to you.
You can do that very easily online on my page.
I'm at doctor Quincy on Instagram and on TikTok, and
you can find me there. I'm sharing information like this
all of the time, and my hope is to be
supportive there and to build community, because I know that
(34:04):
there's a lot of people that need to know that
there's others that have been through this, right, especially when
they first get out of groups like this. If you're
wanting to do a little bit more of that deeper processing.
I have a community for survivors. We have a program
that I walk you through over a year's time. It's
called a Year of Non Magical Thinking for Survivors, and
(34:25):
this is where folks that are getting out of groups
like this can come. We establish safety. We talk about
how to rebuild your life, but I also talk through
a lot of what we've talked about today, but I
tell you the science behind it. I walk you through
how to actually take some of those steps to walk
away from thought reform, to say no to coercive behavior,
to spot emotional manipulation from a mile off, and you
(34:46):
can do that. You can find me at traumastery dot
com like Monastery, but for trauma get it.
Speaker 2 (34:52):
Oh what what you did there?
Speaker 3 (34:55):
Yeah? So we want to just express our sincere gratitude
for having doctor Gideon on. I know for me it's
been extremely insightful, a little bit emotional at times because
it was really confronting some of those things that I
(35:16):
have had to experience and seeing loved ones experience as well.
So having this insight I think will really help as
we continue on our conversations with this platform.
Speaker 2 (35:26):
Absolutely, she just gave so much enlightening information, and it's
just so grateful for her time. So thank you, doctor Gideon.
This has been Forgive Me For I Have Followed. We'll
be back next week.
Speaker 3 (35:38):
Forgive Me For I Have Followed is a production from
wv Sound, Dirty Robert and iHeartMedia's Michael Tore podcast Network,
hosted by Me, Khalia Gray, hen Me, Jess Cossabetto Forgive
Me For I Have Followed is produced by Aaron Burlson
and Sophie Spencer Zabos. Our executive producers are Khalia Gray, myself,
Walmer Valderrama, Leo Klam and Aaron Burlison.
Speaker 2 (35:58):
At wv Sound.
Speaker 3 (36:00):
This episode was edited by Sean Tracy and features original
music by Madison Davenport and Halo Boy. For more podcasts
from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever
you listen to your favorite shows. See you next week,
See you next week,
When we talk about how people get out of these
groups and how they heal. That's part of the deep processing,
realizing that your actions are always imperfect and you're doing
the best you can with the information that you have,
and it's not some reflection of some broken part inside
of you. But boy, where we taught that.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Welcome back to forgive me for I have followed. I'm
Jess Costebetto and.
Speaker 3 (00:28):
I'm Clia Gray. Our series explores the story of Robert Chin,
the Eli Basha kind of Church, and seven M films.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
I'm excited about this week's guest. You know, we've had
a lot of conversations so far and they've been super
enlightening and really powerful, but thought it would be great
to get a little more context on the psychology level
and what attracts people to these high controlled groups and
the challenges that people face when they get out of that.
(00:55):
And also for allies and family members, what is that
experience like and what's maybe some the advice that we
can get.
Speaker 3 (01:01):
And also even just the general public, because there are
a lot of people that are tuned into this story
that it might help them understand a little bit better.
Because I've seen that a lot in the comments of like, oh,
I just don't get it. And so I think having
someone that can really speak to more of like the
social the psychological aspect of it to give more like
understanding to it, and even for me myself and my
(01:22):
own healing journey, I have my own like question. So
I'm very excited for this.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
So today we're speaking with doctor Quincy Gideon, doctor of
psychology and therapists who specializes in religious trauma. She also
aid survivors of high control groups to regain and rebuild
their lives.
Speaker 3 (01:41):
Yeah, let's get started with our conversation with doctor Gideon.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
Well, thank you for doing this with us today. I
think initially when we had met, it was because your
page was shared with me by one of the parents
and they were looking to your page for answers and
they had a lot of peace and calming in that.
And so, Cleia, we had filmed with doctor Gideon a
few sessions because one of the parents wanted to meet
(02:12):
with her while she was in town and just had
so many questions and doctor Gideon was absolutely amazing for
helping kind of walk her through a few of those
things and helping participate. But ultimately we weren't able to
see that in the documentary, but I thought it was
so powerful and it was some of the most powerful
stuff that we had filmed, and elements that we really
noticed that the parents had kept throughout the entire process.
(02:32):
So I just wanted to give a little context for
Khalia and everyone else of how we all know each other.
But yes, your Instagram page and what you do is
absolutely amazing. So thank you again.
Speaker 1 (02:44):
Well, thank you, it's a privilege to be here. Thanks
for having me.
Speaker 2 (02:47):
So can you share with us a little bit about
your own experience in high controlled groups and what motivates
you to support others facing similar challenges.
Speaker 1 (02:56):
Sure. So I grew up in what you would call
a fundamental badge church, which you know, they kind of
run the gamut. They have a very different presentation depending
on where they are in the country, who's leading that congregation,
but essentially they take a very hard line look at
some of the quote rules that they feel like are
(03:18):
very explicit in the Bible, and mostly that results in
the oppression of women, and it results in a whole
lot of sanctifying and looking towards men to be sort
of the ultimate deciders of fate. Deciders of most things
that go on in life, including like the family structure
and the decisions that are made and who works and
(03:40):
where does the money go and how many children are there,
Like all of those decisions kind of fall on men.
So I grew up in this environment that was chronically
telling me that my options in life were to be
a wife and a mother or a missionary. They actually
gave you that option. You could go off to another
country and tell people the quote unquote good news about God,
(04:03):
our faith, the religion that I was a part of,
And those were my two options. And there was a
lot of rules, a lot of rules like the way
that you dated, you don't date, you court. It's very
dugg Or esque. If anyone has sort of seen how
that has played out on TLC for generations now, you
see that it's highly restrictive. Everything is sort of fear based,
(04:27):
like we're so afraid that, you know, these kids are
going to become this or they might behave in this way,
and so it's really fear mongering. There's a lot of
that that goes on in the background. Ultimately, there were
kind of some ways in which it impacted my insights,
which were you know, a lot of worry and fear
about the future. I participated in my own oppression, so
(04:50):
I got to a point to where I had sort
of internalized the message so much that I didn't actually
need to be a part of a repressive group anymore.
I could do that all by myself. And then externally,
there were some big consequences. I married the man that
I was supposed to marry according to this church, and
it was horrible. It was abusive in a lot of ways.
(05:12):
He was not straight. I was not aware of that
for a very long time, and obviously that ended really
terribly and there were a lot of consequences to that.
My entire life kind of blew up. And when it
blew up, I had to look at kind of what
had happened and say, I followed all of the rules
(05:33):
and it didn't protect me. I participated in my own
repression because I was so afraid of my power as
a woman. I was told that that was such a
fearful thing. Turns out I still got my heart broken.
Turns out my life is still a mess, and everything
fell apart. So it was sort of a long line
to get to this place, right, But it was a
(05:54):
deeply lived experience for me, and I think once I
came out of it, I just decided that my entire
goal in life is to inoculate people from getting into
these groups. I want people to feel like they have
space to sort of sit back and observe for a
while and see if this is something that they want
to join. I want people to have language for how
(06:14):
they ask questions and how they show up in these groups,
how they challenge the leader, and when they start to
feel kind of yucky, they walk away, and they don't
feel like that's a reflection of them, It's just a
reflection of what they're willing to put up with in
this world.
Speaker 3 (06:27):
Beautifully said, I am in full support of everything that
you are doing with your platform and how you're deciding
to really support other people that are facing challenges like
this and things that I've gone through. What parallels have
you seen in your line of work amongst individuals in
these high controlled situations.
Speaker 1 (06:47):
I think the first thing I look for, and I
teach people to look for, is fear, because it will
be evasive. It's like a terrible plant that you can't
get rid of. It just grows everywhere, and it will
be fear of what happens in relationships, fear of what
happens when you step outside the group, fear of what
happens when you challenge a leader, fear of what happens
(07:07):
when you think I want to be a little bit
separate from this group. Fear of how you spend money,
fear of where you spend your time. And so I
think that that's the first thing that people can look at,
is they can maybe sit back and think, what is
the primary thing that I feel most moments of the day.
And if in multiple spaces, you're feeling a whole lot
(07:29):
of fear, I would start asking questions like, how is
this group contributing to that? How are the messages that
I'm sitting here and listening to every week contributing to
this fear that just keeps growing, Right, because it's fear
of this very elusive thing. It'll be fear of hell,
It'll be fear of the afterlife, It'll be fear of
a god that you don't have interaction with every day. Right,
(07:52):
It's this very elusive thing that we're taught to fear.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
Absolutely, Doctor Giddy and I know that we had had
some conversations during the filming of the documentary, But what
were your initial impressions after seeing it and having been
a little bit in it and having conversations with people
throughout the filming, was there anything that surprised you.
Speaker 1 (08:15):
This is one of my favorite things to talk about,
because I want to make coercive groups and high control
groups un sexy in some way because they all follow
a script. So truly, when I watch documentaries, I am
in the background going yes, yes, say more of that
because that's helpful. So I'm like cheering along. But absolutely
(08:37):
none of it is surprising. There is nothing that this
church has done or the leadership has done, that is
outside of the bounds of what is typically done in
these circumstances. You can just fill in the blanks and
it happens over and over and over again. Which is
not to say that the people that get pulled in
(08:57):
are somehow uneducated or goal or anything like that. It's
just to say that we aren't talking enough about how
these groups work in order to inoculate people from getting
into them. We still think that each one of them
is doing something different and new and nuanced, and it's
just not true. They're just all following a script.
Speaker 3 (09:18):
And that's what was so surprising for me coming out
of it was hearing how similar all of these groups are,
and that was something that I had heard someone say.
It was like, it's like they pass out a pamphlet
and all of these leaders just have access to this
pamphlet because they're doing the same thing and the same tactics.
Are there any common traps that you see for people
that end up in these cult like communities?
Speaker 1 (09:40):
So research sort of shows that there are a couple
of things that we like to look for. Number One,
there's usually a big life shift that has happened, So
there might be a breakup. There might be a divorce,
a death, getting laid off, something that causes someone to
go out in the world and look for something to
I'll either relieve the pain that they're in or make
(10:02):
sense of the pain. Not everyone is in a whole
lot of pain in those moments, but they might be
more open to like, why do things like this happen?
Why did I even want to get married? And then
you walk into a space where there's a leader that says,
I have all the answers for you. Let me break
it down for you. And they're usually pretty concise about
(10:23):
how they break that down. They usually center themselves on
being a part of the solution right to that pain
or that upset in some way, and they will also
align other things that you've used in the past to cope,
and so that starts to set them apart. And when
you're in these moments in life, you're going to look
at something like that and you're going to say, well,
(10:43):
I've tried it every other way, so maybe I'm the problem,
and maybe they have a solution that I have not
thought of yet. So we're already kind of giving them
credence when they haven't earned it, just by them differentiating
themselves a little bit from the pack from other things
that we've tried in the past. So there's usually some
life transition that's happened. The other thing that can go
(11:06):
on is that typically folks that get into these groups
have a desire to make the world a better place.
So that thing that we want in every single human
we desire it. We need people to be good people
that want the world to be a better place. They
are more apt to getting pulled into groups like this
(11:28):
because these groups promise that we are making the world
a better place, We're saving people from hell, right, So
even the character that might be on the main stage,
even if that person is not lovable in some way,
the overall desire of the group to make the world
a better place, to save people from themselves, to make
(11:48):
suffering go away, to get people into heaven, like whatever
the selling point is. Folks that want the world to
be a better place are going to be a little
bit more apt to say yes to a group like that.
You combine those two things and you've kind of got
a recipe for a whole lot of manipulation and coercion.
Speaker 3 (12:06):
Honestly, that made me a little emotional because I'm just
thinking about a lot of my friends that are still there,
and you know, those qualities are within them. They do
want to make the world a better place. They are
very kind hearted. I even think not to speak for everybody,
but you know, COVID had just happened, and a lot
of the dancers that we were working with now it's
like the work that they did, they had to find
a whole different way, And so it even has me wondering, like,
(12:28):
outside of this situation, there must have been so many
other like groups and cult like communities that really capitalized
on the disaster that was COVID.
Speaker 2 (12:39):
That makes so much sense that it would target this
life transitional moment. But also it is good people. And
that's what's so heartbreaking about it is that you have
someone taking advantage of good people and then knowing that
those people then have to work through that for however
long it takes them when they get out of a
(12:59):
sitchuation like that, And that really breaks my heart that
someone can see that and take advantage of that. But
it makes perfect sense.
Speaker 1 (13:07):
Yeah, if anyone is sort of out there in the
world thinking I really do long for a better world,
I think that is just an invitation to take a
beat before you join anything. I mean, this is part
of the inoculation, right, just take a second before you
join anything, because it's going to feel so good for
you to walk into a group that promises something, and
(13:30):
you're more likely to kind of miss some of the
red flags. We all would. This is human behavior. This
is nothing to be mad at yourself over. It's just
something to know that you're going to need to protect
yourself a little bit more from.
Speaker 3 (13:44):
After the break, we continue our conversation with doctor Gideon.
This is forgive me for I have followed. We'll be
right back.
Speaker 2 (13:55):
Welcome back to forgive me for I have followed. Now
back to our conversation with doctor Gideon. Doctor Gidden, you've
mentioned inoculate a couple times in our conversation. What do
you mean by that?
Speaker 1 (14:07):
So inoculation is just this idea of protecting someone from
getting sick in the future. So it initially kind of
came about with vaccinations, Right, we like, expose someone to
something and it prevents them from getting sick in the future.
So when we think about inoculating someone against saying yes
to some of these groups, what I mean by that
(14:28):
is exposing them to the information that takes the power
away from these groups. So when someone you know, kind
of shows up to these churches or shows up to
these groups and they hear some of the things that
we have sort of prepped them with, right, We've said
some of this information that that person might sit there
and be like, hmm, this is not for me, thank
(14:48):
you so much, goodbye, and they're able to walk away
from that because they're empowered with the information that we're
giving them.
Speaker 3 (14:55):
I guess got to switch gears a little bit. When
we were prepping for this episode. There was a phrase
that really stood out to me and I would love
to hear a little bit more about it was the
concept of cult hopping. There's some individuals that had been
in a prior situation that was very similar to the
one that we were in. So it's just like kind
of this transition from one cult like group to another
cult like group. So could you explain a little bit
(15:17):
more about that. I'm very intrigued.
Speaker 1 (15:19):
Yeah, totally. So it kind of goes back to those
needs that we were just talking about, that there's a
life transition. You're wanting more from the world. You want to,
you know, change the world for the better, and this
group offers that, and then you decide somewhere along the
way that this group is actually unhealthy, but you don't
address what is going on that got you into that
(15:42):
place in the first place, right into that like vulnerable space.
I will also say that cult hopping at the bottom
of all of this is that need, right, and these
groups kind of function in the same way, but inevitably
the next group will be just enough different. Just think
about like that maybe terrible relationship pattern you might have
(16:02):
been in where you're like, I am so tired of
dating people that do X, Y and Z and the
next person. It's like they never do X, Y and Z.
They do, they just do a different version of it,
but it looks different enough that we kind of get
pulled in. This is the same pattern that's playing out
with just group dynamics rather than relational dynamics. You're not
(16:22):
addressing what kind of pulls you to that person, that group,
that thing that they're promising, and so you'll get into
another group. They'll look different at first, and then you'll
discover that they're not different at all.
Speaker 3 (16:35):
That was really beautifully said. It's the lack of reflection,
because that is some of the things that I've heard
from some of the members is that refusal almost to reflect.
So when half of us had left, there were people
that were like, I'm going to die on this hill.
Speaker 1 (16:48):
I just want to say a little bit about how
dangerous self reflection feels. When you're in a group like this,
you are taught that self reflection, the feelings that you
have going with your gut is actually the most dangerous
thing that you can do because it lends to your
evil side, right, and that you actually have to listen
to the leadership, listen to scripture, listen to anyone outside
(17:12):
of yourself to get guidance on what you should do next,
because you cannot trust yourself. So self reflection is actually
one of those things that these cult like groups will
take away from members because it makes them more likely
to stay in for a long time. And so if
you think about that, not only have they been taught
that it's dangerous, but it actually feels quite dangerous because
(17:33):
then you're going to have to pay attention to how
you participated not only in your own oppression, but also
the oppression of others, and that breaks people. That is
such a hard thing that we as members of these
groups eventually have to come to the understanding that we
(17:53):
participated in the pain of other people, by recruiting, by
bringing people in, talking them out of leaving, by all
of these things, right, we have to pay attention to that.
We have to admit that and take accountability. And when
you're still in the group and you're still living according
to what these groups are telling you to do, like
avoid self reflection, this becomes the most dangerous thing that
(18:17):
you can do.
Speaker 2 (18:18):
Yeah, and I think with this group too, and CLEI,
I'm sure you can speak more to this. Is that
there's the mentorship program that's in place.
Speaker 1 (18:25):
And so it's.
Speaker 2 (18:26):
Interesting too, because your meant to always want to trust
your gut and then to have someone say like, don't
trust your gut. That's ultimately the things that are negative,
and that's the evil that's trying to push you into
a different direction. That can be very confusing. And I
think Clea you mentioned you know, at some point when
people were wanting to leave, some people said, I'm dying
on this hill. Do you think that the mentor's involvement
(18:47):
in the church had anything to contribute with some of
those people staying?
Speaker 1 (18:51):
Yeah. I think that most of these groups actually have
some sort of mentorship program because the leader has given
these messages so consistently that people have internalized them, and
then they go out and they do the quote dirty
work of the leader. Right, So there's kind of this
hierarchy that usually develops in groups like this, and the
(19:11):
mentorship programs usually function in two different ways. Number one,
to disseminate this information so that the leader doesn't have
to do all of this work anymore. Right, they can
sort of wash their hands and even kind of separate
themselves like well, I didn't say that, or I didn't
do that. I don't hurt people. I just bring the
good message of what God wants me to say, right,
so they kind of have a separation. And then secondly
(19:35):
it functions as a confessional. So let me break that down.
There are ways in which these groups function to participate
in mind control and thought reform. This is an idea
that was put forward by Robert liften years ago whenever
he was researching folks in China in how their thoughts
(19:55):
actually changed after years of being in coercive environments. And
so we look at some of these factors. There's eight
factors and thought control, and one of them is forced
confession or confession, and so this can mean a couple
of different things. We saw this in other groups like
NEXTM and things like that, where people would tell on
(20:16):
each other. Right, So you then became really nervous about
who was watching you, who was seeing your behavior, Who's
going to catch me doing something? And it actually worked
really well for getting people's behavior in line, right, because
anyone could tell on you. It's not just the leader
seeing you, it's not just the parent seeing you. Now
(20:36):
your siblings are telling on you too. But then there's
usually also in these groups this sort of idea that
you must confess in order to stay good with God.
So then members are also confessing to their sins on themselves.
So now we have a hierarchy of mentorship where you
are having to tell your mentor everything for accountability, everything
(21:01):
that you're doing wrong, and they're telling on you to
the leader, and then you are also participating in the like.
But I need this. This is the only way that
I'm sanctified. This is the only way that I am
a good person. This is the only way that I
stay in God's favor because I again can't trust myself.
My behaviors were always going to bend towards the evil,
(21:22):
bend towards the bad, and I need this amount of
babysitting in order to stay on the right track.
Speaker 3 (21:29):
Is there any advice that you would have for former
cult members like myself to help us with social rehabilitation
things like that.
Speaker 1 (21:38):
Yeah. So the first thing that I recommend for anyone
that has gotten out of a group like this is
just start with your basic needs. You're going to need money,
you're going to need food, you're going to need shelter,
and you're going to need safety. Those are the four
things that we have to get you before you can
do any of the emotional processing. So although when someone
(21:58):
comes out of these groups they had I've typically been
taught that this deep emotional processing where you're mad at
yourself all of the time, is a part of everyday life.
I actually encourage people to not do that for just
a short period of time. Let's just get your basic
needs taken care of, safety being the one that we
have to focus on. If you don't feel safe in
(22:20):
the space that you're staying, if you don't feel safe
like you're not going to have food the next day,
this emotional processing is going to lead to much worse outcomes.
So taking care of those most basic needs is really
where we need to start for anyone that's getting out
of these groups. And the groups kind of run the gamut, right,
So a lot of people will like sign over all
(22:40):
of their financial wealth, right, and they really have nothing.
Some people have been in these groups for so long,
and housing was a part of these groups. They don't
know how to get a lease, they don't even know
how to prove, you know, that they can pay for it.
They don't know how to go out there and get
a job, and so sometimes these things are going to
take longer than just a days or a few weeks,
(23:01):
but they really are necessary before any of the deep
deprogramming happens and the emotional processing happens. Once we have safety,
then we start working on mild reflection. If we don't
need to go deep yet, you just start with the
things that are most obvious to you, maybe the things
(23:22):
that have come up the most often while you're trying
to re establish safety in your life right and getting
those basic needs. Once you've gotten some of those things
like Okay, I don't think I trust what he was
saying anymore. That's the sort of processing I'm talking about,
Like was he a reliable source of information? No, So
those things that keep coming up in my head, I
(23:43):
don't need to trust those right now. I don't need
to listen to those right now. And then once you
kind of have a little bit of momentum you're starting
to feel like you can get through a day without
feeling like you're going to fall apart, then we can
start moving through, you know, the things like we really
got to talk about some thought reform and really to
talk about all of the different layers of coercion that
we're happening and we've really got to talk about how
(24:06):
you might have participated in someone else's oppression and how
that leaves you feeling. Right now, we can start doing
sort of the deeper work now for people that come
into my office and work with my therapists that you know,
kind of specialize in cult recovery and religious trauma. Sometimes
that can take like a year out before you're actually
(24:27):
asking yourself the deeper questions because it took six to
nine months to figure out how to do all of
this like daily living stuff and to feel calm while
doing it. Like that's the that's the big part, is
that we want you to feel like you're not falling
apart every day.
Speaker 2 (24:41):
Do you have any advice on how to maybe mitigate
some of the potential triggers for former members after they've
left a situation like that?
Speaker 1 (24:50):
Yeah, I mean, I think we have to identify where
the triggers lie. So for some people, the triggers are
going to be language, right, Like the words that are
used are going to be extra triggering and on different levels,
Like maybe using the word cult can feel really triggering
to someone. Maybe it's using a phrase right, like they
go out in the world and they hear someone else
(25:12):
say you really have to die to yourself. Now, that
was language that was used inside of the group, right
of Chicina. Okay, that's triggering. We don't need to hear that.
So you need to be aware that you've got to
take yourself out of situations where that's going to come up.
So let me say something that's really hard for people
that come out of these groups, especially if they're religious
in nature. You might need to take a break from
(25:34):
church for a while because the messages that are very
common in churches in our area, that language is going
to be used. Now in your group, it was manipulated
and it was used against you, and so going to
a different church, even if they are not using it
to manipulate you, hearing that same phrase used over and
(25:57):
over and over again is likely going to be triggering.
It's likely going to kind of set you back from
all this hard work that you're doing to kind of
get your life back on track. So you might just
need to take a break from these sort of things. Now,
that seems counterintuitive to a lot of people because when
they get out of these groups, they're thinking, I need community,
I feel so alone. Yes, you do need community. But
(26:18):
likely not at another church that's using the same language
that was used to abuse you.
Speaker 3 (26:23):
That makes sense, you know.
Speaker 2 (26:25):
Throughout this process, I had many conversations and I needed
to be aware of those triggers as well to make
sure that I was navigating those conversations sensitively. At times,
I could just be you know, asking a question, and
maybe I brought up the church's name and that was
a trigger for someone and there's like, please, please don't
say the name of the church, and I had to shift.
(26:46):
It could have been you know, Robert's name, and yes,
I can imagine how die to yourself or if someone
said that, how that could be triggering for a person
in this particular group.
Speaker 1 (26:55):
Yeah, and I'll just say, like ask. This is one
of the things that doesn't happen inside of these groups
is that people are not asked how things are impacting
them negatively, and they're just told like, you're the problem
for feeling that way because I said this thing. Now,
that might be your ego, that might be the evil
inside of you, that might be a lot of different things,
but it's never the problem of the person who said
(27:17):
the triggering thing. And so we've got to like switch
that up and so being a good steward of these
conversations might be just asking, like I saw you sort
of flinch there. Did I say something that was painful?
How could I refer to this group without it being painful?
Is there something I can say? Can I just say
the church? Can I just say the group? Is there
(27:37):
some other way that I can use language that would
be a little bit more supportive? Most people are dying
for you to just ask right when you see their pain.
Speaker 2 (27:49):
When we return the conclusion of our conversation with doctor Gideon,
this is forgive me for I have followed.
Speaker 3 (28:00):
Welcome back to forgive me for I have followed. Here's
the conclusion of our conversation with doctor Gideon.
Speaker 2 (28:07):
Do you think that there are any actions that allies
take that can have the adverse effect when supporting former members?
Speaker 1 (28:16):
Depends on the group. So my advice is to take
imperfect action, ask questions, take a compassionate and curious stance,
and seeing how your actions are perhaps impacting someone, and
then be willing to shift. Because I can sit with
people in my office and I can do the same
(28:37):
thing that I do most of the time, but this
particular person has an adverse response to something that I've
said or done or something, and you just have to
be curious about that. You have to be compassionate about
how it comes up, and then be willing to shift
and knowing that there's no shame in needing to shift
for the person who needs the shift, for the person
(28:59):
who's willing to do the shifting. We're all just trying
to figure this out, but we never want to try
to get this so perfect that we don't take action.
Because people are hurting in these groups and they're dying
for some sort of connection, and we need to be
willing to kind of step into that and mess up
a lot along the way and then be willing to
just sort of like, oh, good to know. I'll change
(29:21):
that and I'll do something different.
Speaker 3 (29:22):
I love that phrase that you use of taking imperfect action,
because one of the things in Chiquina that was talked
about a lot was having to be perfect. The only
people who are allowed in the Kingdom of Christ are perfect.
Speaker 1 (29:36):
Yeah, we somehow in these groups, we're usually taught that
imperfection is somehow a reflection of something really broken inside
of you. And when we talk about how people get
out of these groups and how they heal that's part
of the deep processing, realizing that your actions are always
imperfect and you're doing the best you can with the
information that you have and it's not some reflection of
(29:58):
some broken part and you. But boy, were we taught that.
I did.
Speaker 2 (30:03):
Want to just quickly go back to one thing that
you mentioned along the lines of the hardship of coping
with the idea that someone could have oppressed another person,
because that's one thing that I think a lot about
for people that leave high control groups and how difficult
that must be because they're still victims of this person
or this organization. But then at times those people can
(30:26):
have been sucked in and caught up in situations that
are oppressing other people. So what's an advice that maybe
you would give that person that might have been removing
themselves from that situation but might be struggling with that.
Speaker 1 (30:40):
So when someone is inside of these groups and they
move away from their victimhood and more towards being a perpetrator, right,
because they're kind of contributing to the ongoing pain of
other people now because they've internalized the messages so much.
You know, when we start to look at those sort
of instances, it can be full of shame and guilt
and all kinds of lucky feelings. Right, But if we
(31:02):
can just start to gently have a conversation of I
can acknowledge that your intention was to do X, Y
and Z, save this person, bring them back into the fold,
help them not be in trouble so much with leadership.
That's oftentimes what some of this mentorship stuff is about. Right, Like,
you keep getting yelled at and it's really hard for
me to tolerate. So just do it this way because
(31:23):
the leader won't be so mad at you. You have
a wonderful intention, but that's not the impact. Right. This
is a great parenting lesson for people when your intention
is to do one thing, but the impact that you
have on your child is something totally different. And when
they bring that impact to you, you actually have to say,
I can see that this has had a really negative
(31:44):
impact on you, Like this has hurt you, and that
that in some way does not make you a bad person.
It just means that you were participating in something as
best as you could, and you contributed to someone's pain.
And good luck finding a person out there that has
not contributed to someone's pain. They don't exist, right, so welcome.
You're in humanity now. Your cult group told you that
(32:07):
you should not be a part of humanity, that you
should separate yourself from humanity, that you should be better
than the rest of humanity, and it turns out that
that's not possible. So welcome back into a group of
us that are doing the best we can with the
information that we have, and we mess up. Sometimes this
is like a part of what you're doing. The second
(32:28):
thing that I will say, and this is oftentimes some
of the work that we do in our clinical setting.
It's getting used to the idea that being a perpetrator
does not take away from your victimhood. You are both,
and you are both at the same time, and that
there's no way that we can separate those things because
they were happening simultaneously, and just being allowed to say
(32:51):
that to yourself and accept that in small doses and
go back and sort of look at some of your
behavior and realize, here's my victimhood and and here's where
I was a perpetrator. That can be very very powerful
in someone's healing. It is not the first step to healing.
Please don't start there. Start with taking care of yourself,
right start with some of this, like do I trust
(33:14):
what he says from the pull pit anymore? No? Okay,
then I can stop saying that stuff to myself right
in my everyday life when I'm sitting at a stoplight
just trying to get groceries.
Speaker 3 (33:23):
Right.
Speaker 1 (33:24):
This is like much more in the later part of processing,
but saying some of those things to yourself that I
am both a victim and a perpetrator at the very
same time can be very helpful and empowering.
Speaker 3 (33:35):
So, doctor Gideon, are there any resources that you think
would be really helpful for people regarding these types of situations?
Speaker 1 (33:43):
Yeah? Absolutely, I would say exposing yourself to a little
bit of information as if it comes available to you.
You can do that very easily online on my page.
I'm at doctor Quincy on Instagram and on TikTok, and
you can find me there. I'm sharing information like this
all of the time, and my hope is to be
supportive there and to build community, because I know that
(34:04):
there's a lot of people that need to know that
there's others that have been through this, right, especially when
they first get out of groups like this. If you're
wanting to do a little bit more of that deeper processing.
I have a community for survivors. We have a program
that I walk you through over a year's time. It's
called a Year of Non Magical Thinking for Survivors, and
(34:25):
this is where folks that are getting out of groups
like this can come. We establish safety. We talk about
how to rebuild your life, but I also talk through
a lot of what we've talked about today, but I
tell you the science behind it. I walk you through
how to actually take some of those steps to walk
away from thought reform, to say no to coercive behavior,
to spot emotional manipulation from a mile off, and you
(34:46):
can do that. You can find me at traumastery dot
com like Monastery, but for trauma get it.
Speaker 2 (34:52):
Oh what what you did there?
Speaker 3 (34:55):
Yeah? So we want to just express our sincere gratitude
for having doctor Gideon on. I know for me it's
been extremely insightful, a little bit emotional at times because
it was really confronting some of those things that I
(35:16):
have had to experience and seeing loved ones experience as well.
So having this insight I think will really help as
we continue on our conversations with this platform.
Speaker 2 (35:26):
Absolutely, she just gave so much enlightening information, and it's
just so grateful for her time. So thank you, doctor Gideon.
This has been Forgive Me For I Have Followed. We'll
be back next week.
Speaker 3 (35:38):
Forgive Me For I Have Followed is a production from
wv Sound, Dirty Robert and iHeartMedia's Michael Tore podcast Network,
hosted by Me, Khalia Gray, hen Me, Jess Cossabetto Forgive
Me For I Have Followed is produced by Aaron Burlson
and Sophie Spencer Zabos. Our executive producers are Khalia Gray, myself,
Walmer Valderrama, Leo Klam and Aaron Burlison.
Speaker 2 (35:58):
At wv Sound.
Speaker 3 (36:00):
This episode was edited by Sean Tracy and features original
music by Madison Davenport and Halo Boy. For more podcasts
from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever
you listen to your favorite shows. See you next week,
See you next week,
Hosts And Creators
Jessica Acevedo
Kailea Gray
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