December 19, 2024 • 25 mins
In this episode, we sit down with the Haleys, creators of Stop Culting and Exposing 7M, and Katie Joy, creator of Without a Crystal Ball, to explore the dark world of Shekinah Church and 7M Films. The Haleys share their journeys of uncovering the manipulative practices of Robert Shinn and his church, while Katie discusses her personal connection to the Wilking family's story and her extensive work exposing high-control groups. Despite facing legal threats, harassment, and emotional tolls, all three remain dedicated to helping survivors and fighting for justice. Tune in for their powerful insights on the ongoing battle to expose cults and raise awareness about the dangers of manipulation and exploitation.
Forgive Me For I Have Followed continues the exploration from Netflix’s hit Dancing for the Devil documentary series by delving deeper into the personal stories of those affected by Robert Shinn, Shekinah Church, and 7M Films. We will focus on the experiences of victims and their families, address urgent questions raised in the documentary, and gather insights from former members and dancers. Our goal is to uncover strategies for combating abuse and ensuring that controlling, cult-like communities are held accountable for their actions.
*The following is based on actual events. Certain composite and representative materials and characters have been used for dramatic purposes.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
He thinks that he has the upper hand and he
has never met or been confronted with the collective group
of us now saying, Robert, You're not going to win.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Welcome back to forgive me for I have followed. I'm
Jess Cassavetto, executive producer of the Netflix series Dancing for
the Devil. The seven M TikTok Cult. This documentary series
explored the story of Robert Shin, the La based Chakaina
Church and seven M Films. Shin founded Chakaina Church over
two decades ago before establishing seven M Films and is
named in a civil lawsuit alleging abuse and cult like behavior.
Speaker 3 (00:48):
And I'm Kalia Gray, former member of Chakaina Church and
seven M Films.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
In this episode, we sit down with some of the
social media accounts responsible for reporting on Chicaina in seven
M and ultimately keeping the story alive. We will chat
with the Hales, creators of Stop Culting and Exposing seven M,
and Katie Joy, creator of Without a Crystal Ball, to
explore the dark world of Chicina Church in seven M.
The Halees share their journey on uncovering the manipulative practices
(01:14):
of Robert Schin and his church, while Katie discusses her
personal connection to the Wilkings family story and the extensive
work exposing high controlled groups like Nexium. Despite facing legal threats, harassment,
and emotional tolls, all three remain dedicated to helping survivors
and fighting for justice. Tune in for their powerful insights
on the ongoing battle to expose cults and raise awareness
(01:36):
about the dangers of manipulation and exploitation, and now our
conversation with Katie. Katie's been covering high controlled groups like
NEXIM and the Dugger Family for years. In this podcast.
(01:56):
You may have heard her name a few times. Katie
Joy is creator of Without a Crystal Ball, and we're.
Speaker 4 (02:02):
Super excited to have her.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
Katie, thank you for joining us today.
Speaker 4 (02:05):
Thanks for having me.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
So what initially drew you to focus on Chakaina Church
and how did you first hear about this story?
Speaker 1 (02:14):
This story was definitely not on my radar. I didn't
even know this church existed, and it wasn't until I
got a message in one of my dms on Instagram
that one of my followers, who was a fan of
the Wilking Sisters page, had let me know about a
live stream that Melanie had done, and she said, here's
(02:35):
the link, just watch this. I know you've covered all
these other cults. There's something going on here, and I
think they need your investigative skills. So I took a look,
and I was heartbroken when I saw them crying and
listening to what they were saying about losing access to
Miranda and just the overwhelming details of what was going
(02:59):
on with all of these dances. And it struck me
because it was like, wait a minute, you're telling me
there's this whole thing happening behind these faces that are
dancing that are like viral. And so I was compelled
to reach out because knowing a little bit more about them,
knowing they're from Michigan and sort of that like midwestern
tie as I'm from Minnesota, that fear they have of like,
(03:22):
you know, they sent their daughter out to the big
city to follow her dream and it's like every parent's
worst nightmare that a child would get like preyed upon.
And so I reached out to them and I was like,
we need to do some digging, and I offered them
my platform and let her know sort of what my
background was, what I covered, my connections, with the other
(03:43):
journalists and kind of started from there. It was like
peeling an onion one layer at a time, because the
initial story that I thought it was kept evolving and changing,
and it felt like it was an endless rabbit hole
of just traumatic, horrific stories.
Speaker 2 (04:02):
Katie, as you started to begin investigating Chakaina, what were
some of those first red flags you noticed that indicated
it might be a high controlled group and how did
your experience with Nexium inform your approach.
Speaker 1 (04:15):
So I remember when I saw Kelly and Dean and
Melanie Live and the way that they were talking about Miranda.
I immediately clicked and I was like, oh my god,
this reminds me of Katherine Oxenburg and her interviews that
she did on her daughter India, and how desperate Catherine
was to get her daughter away from Keith Ranieri.
Speaker 4 (04:35):
And I was like, Okay, there's something here.
Speaker 1 (04:39):
So I kind of understood the way that Keith Ranieri
set up his system, and when Melanie and them were
talking about how it's a church but it's also a
management company, I wanted to verify that that's how it
looked on paper, and what I found was that there
was a church Chikaia Church that he had formed a
(05:00):
ninety four, but it didn't appear that he had ever
been ordained as a pastor.
Speaker 4 (05:05):
So I was like, this is weird, okay.
Speaker 1 (05:07):
And then I've went to the various sources that I
look at, you know, I go to the Secretary of State,
I'm looking at the court records. I'm trying to figure
out where he's located, and it starts to paint this
picture to me of a man that has I mean,
the list of businesses alone was shocking, and they all
had him on it with various members of whoever connected
(05:29):
to things, you know, like on Chicaina it was I think,
he and Daniel, Joseph and Hannah, I think, But then
on seven M it was like him, Hannah and Shirley.
And then he has all these other businesses that have
been voluntarily dissolved or revoked, and I was like, revoked.
Speaker 4 (05:51):
Interesting, what could have caused that?
Speaker 1 (05:53):
Yeah, So the revocations that I've found in the addresses
of the various businesses is how I started researching the
court records, which was like a whole other thing. And
when I got to Orange County and I found the
lawsuit that Lydia Chung filed in two thousand and nine.
That is when I hit Petert and I was like,
(06:14):
this is it. This sounds exactly like what the Wilkins
are accusing him of. And I certainly didn't start reporting
on things until I had a clear picture. And Robert's
favorite thing, especially with him suing me, is that I'm
not sourcing things if he really understood how well this
is sourced.
Speaker 3 (06:33):
The legal troubles, especially surrounding cult like environments and surrounding Robert,
have been extensive. And I know you've faced a lot
of challenges with this, including harassment and smear campaigns. How
did you cope with these attacks and did they ever
make you question your investigation?
Speaker 1 (06:52):
I always feel like, and it's my opinion that if
you're going to cover cults and high control groups, or
if you start discussing someone's faith system, there's going to
be a reaction. But what Robert unleashed was I've never
experienced the amount of harassment I've gone through, and particularly
(07:12):
after the series came out, was insane. After Miranda made
her video where she said that she was getting threats
and her life was in danger and she was mad,
Why did her parents participate in the documentary. I had
a swat call and a report to the FBI, and
they were here at four o'clock in the morning.
Speaker 4 (07:32):
And then in.
Speaker 1 (07:33):
The span of three days, we had police at my
house four times. Oh my gosh, and we still don't
know who was doing these threats. And the threats were
like not even true. It was like Katie's husband is
holding a gun to her head, or Katie's going to
hurt her child. Someone even filed a false report to
CPS in my attorney's name. They filed reports with the city.
(07:57):
They used different people's names while filing these reports. I
had to have a meeting with the FBI, I met
with local law enforcement. They still could not to this
day figure out who's doing this. And at the same time,
I'm receiving emails that are like, if you don't stop
talking about Robert Shin, we're going to keep doing.
Speaker 4 (08:16):
This to you. I am so sorry. That is so difficult,
oll Katie.
Speaker 2 (08:21):
I'm so sorry You've been through a whole lot in
this process, and so I just need to say thank
you because it's not been easy. And I know that
you've been dealing with this legal battle for now two
years almost three and we've seen people settle rightfully. So
whatever works best for you. But you refuse to back down, Katie,
you're a tough cookie. Oh you go, Katie.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
You know when he filed his lawsuit against me, and
I'll say that hearing him say in the documentary, We're
going to silence every single critic.
Speaker 4 (08:54):
That's what he's doing. That's all he's doing here.
Speaker 1 (08:56):
You know, I've had other lawsuits where we've settled, and
it's as simple as like, all right, I'll take my
stuff down even if it was true. We had done
a couple settlings and my attorneys just like looked at
me and they said, if you keep settling, it's just
going to provoke more people to sue you, because they're
going to think, if you keep settling, all we have
(09:17):
to do is file a lawsuit and she'll take down
the content and.
Speaker 4 (09:21):
We'll move on.
Speaker 1 (09:22):
They said, if you don't settle, you will not get
as many lawsuits because it'll show people that this isn't
going to be an easy.
Speaker 4 (09:30):
Fight, right, that you're willing to fight.
Speaker 1 (09:33):
Yeah, And so I was like, you know what, I'm
committed no matter how much this costs, I don't care.
Speaker 4 (09:38):
And it's cost me a lot.
Speaker 1 (09:40):
And every time I write out a check, I'm like, Robert,
you're not going to win.
Speaker 4 (09:44):
I don't care.
Speaker 1 (09:44):
I don't care if you think you're going to bankrupt me,
You're not going to bankrupt me. I'm going to be fine.
I'll just work extra hard. But you're not even getting
a dent in this Robert, and he thinks that he
has the upper hand, and he has never met or
been confronted with the colective group of us now saying
you're not going to win, right, and having been on
(10:05):
the receiving end of the lawsuit, I can wholeheartedly understand,
like how he weaponizes things against people, how he makes
people second guests themselves. He tries to hurt you where
he thinks it can hurt, you know, And leading up
to the release of the documentary, his narrative was starting
(10:26):
to win, right, Like people had kind of forgotten. They're like, Oh,
Miranda's fine, Look she's dancing, everything's good. Oh those other
people left. We haven't you know, you're dom Katie, that's
all a lie.
Speaker 2 (10:39):
So despite the emotional toll, You've continued advocating for survivors
and shedding light on the exploitation within Chicina. What keeps
you motivated, Katie, to push forward despite all these obstacles.
Speaker 1 (10:53):
It really comes down to a promise I made to
Kelly Wilkin in the first conversation that I ever had
with Kelly. I was very emotional, obviously she was emotional,
and I just said to her, I don't know how
long this is going to take. I don't know what
we can do here, but we will get your daughter back.
We will get her home. And I don't know if
it means like we will get her home back to
(11:14):
Detroit or you know, back to Michigan, but rather like
out of this, you know free.
Speaker 2 (11:20):
Well, Katie, thank you for continuing to stand up for
what you believe in, for diving deep and doing these
paper trail investigations and standing your ground. I know it's
not easy, but we do appreciate you taking the time
to talk with us today and for continuing to speak out.
Speaker 4 (11:44):
Thank you both for having me on here.
Speaker 1 (11:45):
And I just want to say that, like, maybe it's
my own naivete, right, that Midwestern naivete when, like I said,
I wasn't expecting this, But maybe that also makes me
fearless in a way. Because I don't care, and like
you can say whatever you want, but like I'm just
you know, Katie, and I'm a mom and I have
(12:06):
a job, and this is what I do and don't
hurt people. And if I could say to any of
the people that have come out and that have gone
through this, especially Khalia, to you, like there's no shame
at all. We often, way too often shame the victims
of these high control groups. And I even heard Kevin
say that, you know, like he felt almost ashamed. And
(12:26):
it's like, how about we reframe the narrative and be
why does Robert choose to hurt people? It's not your
fault that he's doing this. You guys were hungry, hungry
for like spirituality, hungry for work, and he made a
lot of promises.
Speaker 3 (12:47):
Thank you for sharing that, because that is true. I
think that reframing does need to happen. And you know,
the more conversations I get into with people like you
and the people that we've had on the more I
feel like I'm starting to refrain my feelings towards the
situation that I've gone through personally.
Speaker 4 (13:08):
This is forgive me for I have followed. We'll be
right back.
Speaker 2 (13:18):
Welcome back to forgive me for I have followed. Now
back to our conversation, now switching gears to the Halees
creators have stopped coulting and exposing seven M, who have
dedicated themselves to uncovering the truth about Robert Schin and
the allegations of manipulation in his church. They share their
(13:39):
unique journeys from growing up exposed to high controlled environments
to investigating Chakaina Church in seven M films. Despite facing
legal threats, intense backlash, and emotional tolls, the Halees remained
committed to exposing the harmful practices of cult like environments
and helping its survivors. Listen to hear their powerful insight
on the ongoing fight for justice and the need for
(14:00):
greater awareness around cult dynamics. Now our interview with the Halees.
Haley's thank you so much for joining us today.
Speaker 4 (14:13):
Of course, hello, thank you for having us.
Speaker 2 (14:16):
Haley HP as I like to call you. You mentioned having
family members who grew up in high controlled dynamics. How
did that prior knowledge exposure influence your interest in approaching
and investigating groups like Chicaina and seven M.
Speaker 5 (14:32):
Yeah, so my family they are Mormon, and anyone that
I've had contact with is not Mormon. And it was
specifically for that reason, because they basically excommunicated people who
weren't with their religion. So that kind of just made
me interested in the whole high control religions in general,
and I started just researching. It was like FLDS Mormonism,
(14:57):
and then it just like branched off into cold and yeah,
that's pretty much.
Speaker 2 (15:01):
How I went, Hailey, Stop Culting? Haley, how did you
an HP meet? And can you walk us through the
moment when you first decided to start your own pages?
Stop Culting and exposing seven.
Speaker 6 (15:13):
M So very weirdly, we just bumped into each other
on social media. I found out about the cult because
I followed Miranda on Instagram and I had saw her
story posted about Dean and how he like blocked them
in the driveway, and I was like, Okay, what is
going on. I've never seen her even post about her family.
And then I went to her husband's page and I
(15:35):
saw him post about Dean and Kelly, saying that they're
racist and just all these allegations against them, and I
was beyond confused what was going on? And so I
started deep diving just on my own and then Haley
had already made Exposing seven M, and I messaged her
on my personal account and I was like, girl, what.
Speaker 4 (15:54):
Is your name? Who are you?
Speaker 5 (15:55):
What are you doing?
Speaker 6 (15:56):
Like, we have to resource this together, like I would
send her stuff I would find, and then it just
kind of turned into like this little bond of working
to find out what this was because we didn't know
what cult or what group or what religious leader she
was following or anything. So we were going off of
just looking at their social media accounts.
Speaker 2 (16:19):
HP, when did you realize the impact that your pages
were having and how it was reaching those inside Chakaina
and seven M?
Speaker 5 (16:27):
Yeah, So when I started exposing seven M, I just
wanted to raise awareness. I had no idea that my
account would become basically like a discussion board for the
public to like share info they found let alone in
a space for like former members to feel safe and
comfortable and be like, yeah, this happened to me. So
I don't know, we created the accounts like we had
(16:48):
that much of a gut feeling, and then it was
like hundreds of people were following us and sending us
info and I think, what really really solidified.
Speaker 4 (16:56):
It is when the.
Speaker 5 (16:57):
Actual former members of the church reached out like, yeah,
this is the history of the church and this is
my actual experience inside the church. We were like shocked
that it went that far back.
Speaker 2 (17:08):
Can you tell us a little bit about the relationship
with some of the ex members that you had and
how that helped shape the story and your reporting.
Speaker 6 (17:18):
It was hard to navigate what these relationships were supposed
to look like. And me and Haley are trying to
navigate relationships plus posting about Robert Shin, plus not making
this person mad, plus not making that person mad, you know,
and so there's all of these things to balance when
it comes to people that have been through something like this.
And I will say, you know, I personally got the
(17:39):
closest with Melanie. I mean, me and Melanie and Haley
talked pretty much every day. I'm so appreciative of that relationship.
And I'm appreciative that Alicia got out because that opened
another relationship for us. And Alicia automatically trusted us because
Melanie trusted us, And so you know, I am forever
grateful that Melanie even talked to us, that she liked us,
that she trusted us enough with her story that you
(18:03):
know Andrew and Concrete, I mean anybody in this entire
and you're talking Khalia and Kylie and Aubrey and every
single person and all of the ex members that came
and talked to us, Like, I just felt all of
this bull crap and all of this drama and all
this stuff like literally didn't matter to me at the
end of the day because of these relationships.
Speaker 2 (18:25):
When we return the conclusion to our conversation, this is
forgive me for I have followed.
Speaker 4 (18:36):
Welcome back to forgive me for I have followed. Here's
the conclusion of our conversation.
Speaker 2 (18:43):
Hayley, Can you take us into what it was like
when you first found out that you were being brought
into the lawsuit with Robert Well.
Speaker 5 (18:53):
They had hired a process server to come to my state.
And I don't know if this is not true, but
I think that they were watching me for a few
days to see when I left for work, because I
was at my door to open it to walk out
to work in my full work uniform and they were
standing there. They said, you've been served, like the traumatic
(19:14):
line and everything, and he had his phone out recording me,
and I picked my phone up and just immediately recorded
him back, and he was like wearing flip flaps and
like a relaxed outfit. It was bizarre.
Speaker 4 (19:26):
I was just shocked.
Speaker 5 (19:27):
Yeah, I also thought that I was completely anonymous, Like
I don't know. I still have no idea how they
got my name or address or any of that.
Speaker 2 (19:35):
Oh, that's so scary. I'm sorry they had to go
through that, because that would just be absolutely terrifying.
Speaker 5 (19:40):
Yeah, it was crazy.
Speaker 2 (19:42):
Can you share with us a little bit about what
he's suing you for?
Speaker 5 (19:45):
It's defamation, and then he's accused me and like five
other people of hanging up flyers in LA, which I
don't live in La, and then like a few other things.
I don't even know exactly everything that he's accused me
of because it's like extra, like he doesn't need to
be doing all of that.
Speaker 3 (20:03):
I really do appreciate the work that you guys have
done on your platforms, and I know you've emphasized the
importance of education on cults and manipulative relationships. What are
some things you think need to be done to raise
awareness and to better protect people from falling victim to
groups like Chicaina.
Speaker 5 (20:23):
I think there needs to be more laws or regulations
when it comes to like coercive control, like if someone
is in control of your housing, finances, food, all of that,
then consent for a lot of things doesn't really exist anymore.
And also a lot more educational content on like narcissistic abuse,
(20:43):
because that can apply to cults, abusive relationships, and anything
that's similar to that.
Speaker 2 (20:50):
You know, one thing that I've always appreciated about you,
ladies is that you just stand your ground and that
you use your voices to stand up for people for good.
And with that comes a lot of backlash threats, and
that's coming in from other people but also from allegedly
inside the church. How do you get the strength to
just keep posting and keep standing your ground?
Speaker 6 (21:09):
Really, I mean, we definitely received a lot of hate
at first, Like people did not believe that this was
a cult. They did not think, you know, anything we
were saying was true. They thought we were, you know,
making a bunch of stuff up. Obviously, we couldn't name
our sources and tell everyone the world about everything that
was going on because we wanted him to get in trouble,
you know, we wanted to keep certain information to ourselves,
(21:30):
so that way it is something he can be sued for,
or we can tell the police or whatever we needed
to do. Right, Robert coming after us was a little scary.
I'm not gonna lie because we didn't know who he was,
what he was capable of, and then come to find out,
you know, he's like tracking us down, trying to like
serve us these lallpapers and we're messing with like fire here.
You know, we're messing with someone who doesn't want to
(21:51):
be messed with, right, and so, you know, man Haley
make fun of things to get through things, and so
we laugh about all of it. But you know, times
I was worried, but at the same time, it's like,
I know what Robert's doing. I believe in the good
of justice, and there's nothing that Robert can say or
do to make me stop fighting for these people that
(22:11):
he has hurt. And the fight for these people is
way bigger than Robert trying to scare me or some
people online or social media stands and bullcrap. That doesn't
affect me at night, you know what I'm saying.
Speaker 4 (22:23):
Yeah, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:24):
The dynamic that you and HP have, you both compliment
each other really well.
Speaker 4 (22:28):
HP. You are calm and you.
Speaker 2 (22:31):
Are a little more gentle and Haley, you are just
a like you're a bulldog. You get in there and
you just like say what you need to say. You're
not afraid to back down. And I think you ladies
compliment each other really well. And Haley, it makes sense
on why you and Melanie were so close because I
love mel and I think it's because she's a no
bullshit kind of person and she's going to stand up
(22:52):
for what she believes in. She's going to speak her mind,
and that's very much you as well, and then you
have the tenderness of HP Haley's thank you so much
for joining us on this episode of Forgive Me for
I have followed.
Speaker 3 (23:07):
I do appreciate getting to hear all the different angles
and sides because I only was able to see it
from one point of view for so long. So this
has been such an eye opening experience and such a
healing experience for me.
Speaker 2 (23:19):
We appreciate you both, and is there anything that you
want to say before we wrap this up?
Speaker 6 (23:25):
The only thing I want to say is that Miranda Beatas,
Slavic Reino, Kindra, and Titus are still all in there
and also other members, So just keep spreading the word,
put it on social media, tell your friends, have people
watch the documentaries so we can get these cults gone, Get.
Speaker 4 (23:44):
Out of here, no mass.
Speaker 2 (23:55):
We'd like to thank Katie Joi and the Halees for
joining us today and sharing their incredib insight into the
powerful journey of exposing the truth about Robert Schin and
the allegations of manipulation in his church. Their in wavering
commitment to helping survivors and uncovering the truth despite facing
significant challenges is truly inspiring. We wish them continued success
in their mission and in their fight for justice. Don't
(24:18):
forget to follow, stop culting, exposing seven m and without
a Crystal Ball to stay updated on their important work.
Speaker 4 (24:24):
This is Forgive Me For I Have Followed. We'll be
back soon.
Speaker 7 (24:27):
Forgive Me For I Have Followed is a production from
wv Sound, Dirty Robert and iHeartMedia's Michael Tore podcast Network,
hosted by me Kalia Gray and me Jess Cossovetto. Forgive
Me For I Have Followed is produced by Aaron Burlson
and Sophie Spencer Zavos.
Speaker 2 (24:42):
Our executive producers are Khalia Gray, Myself Warmer Balderama, Leo
Klem and Aaron Burlison at WV Sound.
Speaker 7 (24:49):
This episode was edited by Sean Tracy and features original
music by Madison Davenport and Halo Boy. For more podcasts
from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever
you listen to your favorite shows.
Speaker 2 (25:01):
See you next week, See you next week,
He thinks that he has the upper hand and he
has never met or been confronted with the collective group
of us now saying, Robert, You're not going to win.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Welcome back to forgive me for I have followed. I'm
Jess Cassavetto, executive producer of the Netflix series Dancing for
the Devil. The seven M TikTok Cult. This documentary series
explored the story of Robert Shin, the La based Chakaina
Church and seven M Films. Shin founded Chakaina Church over
two decades ago before establishing seven M Films and is
named in a civil lawsuit alleging abuse and cult like behavior.
Speaker 3 (00:48):
And I'm Kalia Gray, former member of Chakaina Church and
seven M Films.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
In this episode, we sit down with some of the
social media accounts responsible for reporting on Chicaina in seven
M and ultimately keeping the story alive. We will chat
with the Hales, creators of Stop Culting and Exposing seven M,
and Katie Joy, creator of Without a Crystal Ball, to
explore the dark world of Chicina Church in seven M.
The Halees share their journey on uncovering the manipulative practices
(01:14):
of Robert Schin and his church, while Katie discusses her
personal connection to the Wilkings family story and the extensive
work exposing high controlled groups like Nexium. Despite facing legal threats, harassment,
and emotional tolls, all three remain dedicated to helping survivors
and fighting for justice. Tune in for their powerful insights
on the ongoing battle to expose cults and raise awareness
(01:36):
about the dangers of manipulation and exploitation, and now our
conversation with Katie. Katie's been covering high controlled groups like
NEXIM and the Dugger Family for years. In this podcast.
(01:56):
You may have heard her name a few times. Katie
Joy is creator of Without a Crystal Ball, and we're.
Speaker 4 (02:02):
Super excited to have her.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
Katie, thank you for joining us today.
Speaker 4 (02:05):
Thanks for having me.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
So what initially drew you to focus on Chakaina Church
and how did you first hear about this story?
Speaker 1 (02:14):
This story was definitely not on my radar. I didn't
even know this church existed, and it wasn't until I
got a message in one of my dms on Instagram
that one of my followers, who was a fan of
the Wilking Sisters page, had let me know about a
live stream that Melanie had done, and she said, here's
(02:35):
the link, just watch this. I know you've covered all
these other cults. There's something going on here, and I
think they need your investigative skills. So I took a look,
and I was heartbroken when I saw them crying and
listening to what they were saying about losing access to
Miranda and just the overwhelming details of what was going
(02:59):
on with all of these dances. And it struck me
because it was like, wait a minute, you're telling me
there's this whole thing happening behind these faces that are
dancing that are like viral. And so I was compelled
to reach out because knowing a little bit more about them,
knowing they're from Michigan and sort of that like midwestern
tie as I'm from Minnesota, that fear they have of like,
(03:22):
you know, they sent their daughter out to the big
city to follow her dream and it's like every parent's
worst nightmare that a child would get like preyed upon.
And so I reached out to them and I was like,
we need to do some digging, and I offered them
my platform and let her know sort of what my
background was, what I covered, my connections, with the other
(03:43):
journalists and kind of started from there. It was like
peeling an onion one layer at a time, because the
initial story that I thought it was kept evolving and changing,
and it felt like it was an endless rabbit hole
of just traumatic, horrific stories.
Speaker 2 (04:02):
Katie, as you started to begin investigating Chakaina, what were
some of those first red flags you noticed that indicated
it might be a high controlled group and how did
your experience with Nexium inform your approach.
Speaker 1 (04:15):
So I remember when I saw Kelly and Dean and
Melanie Live and the way that they were talking about Miranda.
I immediately clicked and I was like, oh my god,
this reminds me of Katherine Oxenburg and her interviews that
she did on her daughter India, and how desperate Catherine
was to get her daughter away from Keith Ranieri.
Speaker 4 (04:35):
And I was like, Okay, there's something here.
Speaker 1 (04:39):
So I kind of understood the way that Keith Ranieri
set up his system, and when Melanie and them were
talking about how it's a church but it's also a
management company, I wanted to verify that that's how it
looked on paper, and what I found was that there
was a church Chikaia Church that he had formed a
(05:00):
ninety four, but it didn't appear that he had ever
been ordained as a pastor.
Speaker 4 (05:05):
So I was like, this is weird, okay.
Speaker 1 (05:07):
And then I've went to the various sources that I
look at, you know, I go to the Secretary of State,
I'm looking at the court records. I'm trying to figure
out where he's located, and it starts to paint this
picture to me of a man that has I mean,
the list of businesses alone was shocking, and they all
had him on it with various members of whoever connected
(05:29):
to things, you know, like on Chicaina it was I think,
he and Daniel, Joseph and Hannah, I think, But then
on seven M it was like him, Hannah and Shirley.
And then he has all these other businesses that have
been voluntarily dissolved or revoked, and I was like, revoked.
Speaker 4 (05:51):
Interesting, what could have caused that?
Speaker 1 (05:53):
Yeah, So the revocations that I've found in the addresses
of the various businesses is how I started researching the
court records, which was like a whole other thing. And
when I got to Orange County and I found the
lawsuit that Lydia Chung filed in two thousand and nine.
That is when I hit Petert and I was like,
(06:14):
this is it. This sounds exactly like what the Wilkins
are accusing him of. And I certainly didn't start reporting
on things until I had a clear picture. And Robert's
favorite thing, especially with him suing me, is that I'm
not sourcing things if he really understood how well this
is sourced.
Speaker 3 (06:33):
The legal troubles, especially surrounding cult like environments and surrounding Robert,
have been extensive. And I know you've faced a lot
of challenges with this, including harassment and smear campaigns. How
did you cope with these attacks and did they ever
make you question your investigation?
Speaker 1 (06:52):
I always feel like, and it's my opinion that if
you're going to cover cults and high control groups, or
if you start discussing someone's faith system, there's going to
be a reaction. But what Robert unleashed was I've never
experienced the amount of harassment I've gone through, and particularly
(07:12):
after the series came out, was insane. After Miranda made
her video where she said that she was getting threats
and her life was in danger and she was mad,
Why did her parents participate in the documentary. I had
a swat call and a report to the FBI, and
they were here at four o'clock in the morning.
Speaker 4 (07:32):
And then in.
Speaker 1 (07:33):
The span of three days, we had police at my
house four times. Oh my gosh, and we still don't
know who was doing these threats. And the threats were
like not even true. It was like Katie's husband is
holding a gun to her head, or Katie's going to
hurt her child. Someone even filed a false report to
CPS in my attorney's name. They filed reports with the city.
(07:57):
They used different people's names while filing these reports. I
had to have a meeting with the FBI, I met
with local law enforcement. They still could not to this
day figure out who's doing this. And at the same time,
I'm receiving emails that are like, if you don't stop
talking about Robert Shin, we're going to keep doing.
Speaker 4 (08:16):
This to you. I am so sorry. That is so difficult,
oll Katie.
Speaker 2 (08:21):
I'm so sorry You've been through a whole lot in
this process, and so I just need to say thank
you because it's not been easy. And I know that
you've been dealing with this legal battle for now two
years almost three and we've seen people settle rightfully. So
whatever works best for you. But you refuse to back down, Katie,
you're a tough cookie. Oh you go, Katie.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
You know when he filed his lawsuit against me, and
I'll say that hearing him say in the documentary, We're
going to silence every single critic.
Speaker 4 (08:54):
That's what he's doing. That's all he's doing here.
Speaker 1 (08:56):
You know, I've had other lawsuits where we've settled, and
it's as simple as like, all right, I'll take my
stuff down even if it was true. We had done
a couple settlings and my attorneys just like looked at
me and they said, if you keep settling, it's just
going to provoke more people to sue you, because they're
going to think, if you keep settling, all we have
(09:17):
to do is file a lawsuit and she'll take down
the content and.
Speaker 4 (09:21):
We'll move on.
Speaker 1 (09:22):
They said, if you don't settle, you will not get
as many lawsuits because it'll show people that this isn't
going to be an easy.
Speaker 4 (09:30):
Fight, right, that you're willing to fight.
Speaker 1 (09:33):
Yeah, And so I was like, you know what, I'm
committed no matter how much this costs, I don't care.
Speaker 4 (09:38):
And it's cost me a lot.
Speaker 1 (09:40):
And every time I write out a check, I'm like, Robert,
you're not going to win.
Speaker 4 (09:44):
I don't care.
Speaker 1 (09:44):
I don't care if you think you're going to bankrupt me,
You're not going to bankrupt me. I'm going to be fine.
I'll just work extra hard. But you're not even getting
a dent in this Robert, and he thinks that he
has the upper hand, and he has never met or
been confronted with the colective group of us now saying
you're not going to win, right, and having been on
(10:05):
the receiving end of the lawsuit, I can wholeheartedly understand,
like how he weaponizes things against people, how he makes
people second guests themselves. He tries to hurt you where
he thinks it can hurt, you know, And leading up
to the release of the documentary, his narrative was starting
(10:26):
to win, right, Like people had kind of forgotten. They're like, Oh,
Miranda's fine, Look she's dancing, everything's good. Oh those other
people left. We haven't you know, you're dom Katie, that's
all a lie.
Speaker 2 (10:39):
So despite the emotional toll, You've continued advocating for survivors
and shedding light on the exploitation within Chicina. What keeps
you motivated, Katie, to push forward despite all these obstacles.
Speaker 1 (10:53):
It really comes down to a promise I made to
Kelly Wilkin in the first conversation that I ever had
with Kelly. I was very emotional, obviously she was emotional,
and I just said to her, I don't know how
long this is going to take. I don't know what
we can do here, but we will get your daughter back.
We will get her home. And I don't know if
it means like we will get her home back to
(11:14):
Detroit or you know, back to Michigan, but rather like
out of this, you know free.
Speaker 2 (11:20):
Well, Katie, thank you for continuing to stand up for
what you believe in, for diving deep and doing these
paper trail investigations and standing your ground. I know it's
not easy, but we do appreciate you taking the time
to talk with us today and for continuing to speak out.
Speaker 4 (11:44):
Thank you both for having me on here.
Speaker 1 (11:45):
And I just want to say that, like, maybe it's
my own naivete, right, that Midwestern naivete when, like I said,
I wasn't expecting this, But maybe that also makes me
fearless in a way. Because I don't care, and like
you can say whatever you want, but like I'm just
you know, Katie, and I'm a mom and I have
(12:06):
a job, and this is what I do and don't
hurt people. And if I could say to any of
the people that have come out and that have gone
through this, especially Khalia, to you, like there's no shame
at all. We often, way too often shame the victims
of these high control groups. And I even heard Kevin
say that, you know, like he felt almost ashamed. And
(12:26):
it's like, how about we reframe the narrative and be
why does Robert choose to hurt people? It's not your
fault that he's doing this. You guys were hungry, hungry
for like spirituality, hungry for work, and he made a
lot of promises.
Speaker 3 (12:47):
Thank you for sharing that, because that is true. I
think that reframing does need to happen. And you know,
the more conversations I get into with people like you
and the people that we've had on the more I
feel like I'm starting to refrain my feelings towards the
situation that I've gone through personally.
Speaker 4 (13:08):
This is forgive me for I have followed. We'll be
right back.
Speaker 2 (13:18):
Welcome back to forgive me for I have followed. Now
back to our conversation, now switching gears to the Halees
creators have stopped coulting and exposing seven M, who have
dedicated themselves to uncovering the truth about Robert Schin and
the allegations of manipulation in his church. They share their
(13:39):
unique journeys from growing up exposed to high controlled environments
to investigating Chakaina Church in seven M films. Despite facing
legal threats, intense backlash, and emotional tolls, the Halees remained
committed to exposing the harmful practices of cult like environments
and helping its survivors. Listen to hear their powerful insight
on the ongoing fight for justice and the need for
(14:00):
greater awareness around cult dynamics. Now our interview with the Halees.
Haley's thank you so much for joining us today.
Speaker 4 (14:13):
Of course, hello, thank you for having us.
Speaker 2 (14:16):
Haley HP as I like to call you. You mentioned having
family members who grew up in high controlled dynamics. How
did that prior knowledge exposure influence your interest in approaching
and investigating groups like Chicaina and seven M.
Speaker 5 (14:32):
Yeah, so my family they are Mormon, and anyone that
I've had contact with is not Mormon. And it was
specifically for that reason, because they basically excommunicated people who
weren't with their religion. So that kind of just made
me interested in the whole high control religions in general,
and I started just researching. It was like FLDS Mormonism,
(14:57):
and then it just like branched off into cold and yeah,
that's pretty much.
Speaker 2 (15:01):
How I went, Hailey, Stop Culting? Haley, how did you
an HP meet? And can you walk us through the
moment when you first decided to start your own pages?
Stop Culting and exposing seven.
Speaker 6 (15:13):
M So very weirdly, we just bumped into each other
on social media. I found out about the cult because
I followed Miranda on Instagram and I had saw her
story posted about Dean and how he like blocked them
in the driveway, and I was like, Okay, what is
going on. I've never seen her even post about her family.
And then I went to her husband's page and I
(15:35):
saw him post about Dean and Kelly, saying that they're
racist and just all these allegations against them, and I
was beyond confused what was going on? And so I
started deep diving just on my own and then Haley
had already made Exposing seven M, and I messaged her
on my personal account and I was like, girl, what.
Speaker 4 (15:54):
Is your name? Who are you?
Speaker 5 (15:55):
What are you doing?
Speaker 6 (15:56):
Like, we have to resource this together, like I would
send her stuff I would find, and then it just
kind of turned into like this little bond of working
to find out what this was because we didn't know
what cult or what group or what religious leader she
was following or anything. So we were going off of
just looking at their social media accounts.
Speaker 2 (16:19):
HP, when did you realize the impact that your pages
were having and how it was reaching those inside Chakaina
and seven M?
Speaker 5 (16:27):
Yeah, So when I started exposing seven M, I just
wanted to raise awareness. I had no idea that my
account would become basically like a discussion board for the
public to like share info they found let alone in
a space for like former members to feel safe and
comfortable and be like, yeah, this happened to me. So
I don't know, we created the accounts like we had
(16:48):
that much of a gut feeling, and then it was
like hundreds of people were following us and sending us
info and I think, what really really solidified.
Speaker 4 (16:56):
It is when the.
Speaker 5 (16:57):
Actual former members of the church reached out like, yeah,
this is the history of the church and this is
my actual experience inside the church. We were like shocked
that it went that far back.
Speaker 2 (17:08):
Can you tell us a little bit about the relationship
with some of the ex members that you had and
how that helped shape the story and your reporting.
Speaker 6 (17:18):
It was hard to navigate what these relationships were supposed
to look like. And me and Haley are trying to
navigate relationships plus posting about Robert Shin, plus not making
this person mad, plus not making that person mad, you know,
and so there's all of these things to balance when
it comes to people that have been through something like this.
And I will say, you know, I personally got the
(17:39):
closest with Melanie. I mean, me and Melanie and Haley
talked pretty much every day. I'm so appreciative of that relationship.
And I'm appreciative that Alicia got out because that opened
another relationship for us. And Alicia automatically trusted us because
Melanie trusted us, And so you know, I am forever
grateful that Melanie even talked to us, that she liked us,
that she trusted us enough with her story that you
(18:03):
know Andrew and Concrete, I mean anybody in this entire
and you're talking Khalia and Kylie and Aubrey and every
single person and all of the ex members that came
and talked to us, Like, I just felt all of
this bull crap and all of this drama and all
this stuff like literally didn't matter to me at the
end of the day because of these relationships.
Speaker 2 (18:25):
When we return the conclusion to our conversation, this is
forgive me for I have followed.
Speaker 4 (18:36):
Welcome back to forgive me for I have followed. Here's
the conclusion of our conversation.
Speaker 2 (18:43):
Hayley, Can you take us into what it was like
when you first found out that you were being brought
into the lawsuit with Robert Well.
Speaker 5 (18:53):
They had hired a process server to come to my state.
And I don't know if this is not true, but
I think that they were watching me for a few
days to see when I left for work, because I
was at my door to open it to walk out
to work in my full work uniform and they were
standing there. They said, you've been served, like the traumatic
(19:14):
line and everything, and he had his phone out recording me,
and I picked my phone up and just immediately recorded
him back, and he was like wearing flip flaps and
like a relaxed outfit. It was bizarre.
Speaker 4 (19:26):
I was just shocked.
Speaker 5 (19:27):
Yeah, I also thought that I was completely anonymous, Like
I don't know. I still have no idea how they
got my name or address or any of that.
Speaker 2 (19:35):
Oh, that's so scary. I'm sorry they had to go
through that, because that would just be absolutely terrifying.
Speaker 5 (19:40):
Yeah, it was crazy.
Speaker 2 (19:42):
Can you share with us a little bit about what
he's suing you for?
Speaker 5 (19:45):
It's defamation, and then he's accused me and like five
other people of hanging up flyers in LA, which I
don't live in La, and then like a few other things.
I don't even know exactly everything that he's accused me
of because it's like extra, like he doesn't need to
be doing all of that.
Speaker 3 (20:03):
I really do appreciate the work that you guys have
done on your platforms, and I know you've emphasized the
importance of education on cults and manipulative relationships. What are
some things you think need to be done to raise
awareness and to better protect people from falling victim to
groups like Chicaina.
Speaker 5 (20:23):
I think there needs to be more laws or regulations
when it comes to like coercive control, like if someone
is in control of your housing, finances, food, all of that,
then consent for a lot of things doesn't really exist anymore.
And also a lot more educational content on like narcissistic abuse,
(20:43):
because that can apply to cults, abusive relationships, and anything
that's similar to that.
Speaker 2 (20:50):
You know, one thing that I've always appreciated about you,
ladies is that you just stand your ground and that
you use your voices to stand up for people for good.
And with that comes a lot of backlash threats, and
that's coming in from other people but also from allegedly
inside the church. How do you get the strength to
just keep posting and keep standing your ground?
Speaker 6 (21:09):
Really, I mean, we definitely received a lot of hate
at first, Like people did not believe that this was
a cult. They did not think, you know, anything we
were saying was true. They thought we were, you know,
making a bunch of stuff up. Obviously, we couldn't name
our sources and tell everyone the world about everything that
was going on because we wanted him to get in trouble,
you know, we wanted to keep certain information to ourselves,
(21:30):
so that way it is something he can be sued for,
or we can tell the police or whatever we needed
to do. Right, Robert coming after us was a little scary.
I'm not gonna lie because we didn't know who he was,
what he was capable of, and then come to find out,
you know, he's like tracking us down, trying to like
serve us these lallpapers and we're messing with like fire here.
You know, we're messing with someone who doesn't want to
(21:51):
be messed with, right, and so, you know, man Haley
make fun of things to get through things, and so
we laugh about all of it. But you know, times
I was worried, but at the same time, it's like,
I know what Robert's doing. I believe in the good
of justice, and there's nothing that Robert can say or
do to make me stop fighting for these people that
(22:11):
he has hurt. And the fight for these people is
way bigger than Robert trying to scare me or some
people online or social media stands and bullcrap. That doesn't
affect me at night, you know what I'm saying.
Speaker 4 (22:23):
Yeah, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:24):
The dynamic that you and HP have, you both compliment
each other really well.
Speaker 4 (22:28):
HP. You are calm and you.
Speaker 2 (22:31):
Are a little more gentle and Haley, you are just
a like you're a bulldog. You get in there and
you just like say what you need to say. You're
not afraid to back down. And I think you ladies
compliment each other really well. And Haley, it makes sense
on why you and Melanie were so close because I
love mel and I think it's because she's a no
bullshit kind of person and she's going to stand up
(22:52):
for what she believes in. She's going to speak her mind,
and that's very much you as well, and then you
have the tenderness of HP Haley's thank you so much
for joining us on this episode of Forgive Me for
I have followed.
Speaker 3 (23:07):
I do appreciate getting to hear all the different angles
and sides because I only was able to see it
from one point of view for so long. So this
has been such an eye opening experience and such a
healing experience for me.
Speaker 2 (23:19):
We appreciate you both, and is there anything that you
want to say before we wrap this up?
Speaker 6 (23:25):
The only thing I want to say is that Miranda Beatas,
Slavic Reino, Kindra, and Titus are still all in there
and also other members, So just keep spreading the word,
put it on social media, tell your friends, have people
watch the documentaries so we can get these cults gone, Get.
Speaker 4 (23:44):
Out of here, no mass.
Speaker 2 (23:55):
We'd like to thank Katie Joi and the Halees for
joining us today and sharing their incredib insight into the
powerful journey of exposing the truth about Robert Schin and
the allegations of manipulation in his church. Their in wavering
commitment to helping survivors and uncovering the truth despite facing
significant challenges is truly inspiring. We wish them continued success
in their mission and in their fight for justice. Don't
(24:18):
forget to follow, stop culting, exposing seven m and without
a Crystal Ball to stay updated on their important work.
Speaker 4 (24:24):
This is Forgive Me For I Have Followed. We'll be
back soon.
Speaker 7 (24:27):
Forgive Me For I Have Followed is a production from
wv Sound, Dirty Robert and iHeartMedia's Michael Tore podcast Network,
hosted by me Kalia Gray and me Jess Cossovetto. Forgive
Me For I Have Followed is produced by Aaron Burlson
and Sophie Spencer Zavos.
Speaker 2 (24:42):
Our executive producers are Khalia Gray, Myself Warmer Balderama, Leo
Klem and Aaron Burlison at WV Sound.
Speaker 7 (24:49):
This episode was edited by Sean Tracy and features original
music by Madison Davenport and Halo Boy. For more podcasts
from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever
you listen to your favorite shows.
Speaker 2 (25:01):
See you next week, See you next week,
Hosts And Creators
Jessica Acevedo
Kailea Gray
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