October 3, 2024 • 26 mins
In this episode, Leah provides a unique perspective on the humble beginnings of Shekinah Church and reveals the profound impact it had on her family. She will also discuss how her relationship with her older brother, Daniel, a former Shekinah/7M mentor, was irrevocably altered by his involvement with the church.
Forgive Me For I Have Followed continues the exploration from Netflix’s hit Dancing for the Devil documentary series by delving deeper into the personal stories of those affected by Robert Shinn, Shekinah Church, and 7M Films. We will focus on the experiences of victims and their families, address urgent questions raised in the documentary, and gather insights from former members and dancers. Our goal is to uncover strategies for combating abuse and ensuring that controlling, cult-like communities are held accountable for their actions.
*The following is based on actual events. Certain composite and representative materials and characters have been used for dramatic purposes.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
I had been wanting to just see him this whole time,
and it was like a sharp, burning, scolding, hot knife,
like going through my body, like over and over, having
to tell and like no, like is Robert trying to
lure me away?
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Welcome back to forgive me for I have followed. I'm
Jessica Ossavetto, executive producer of the hit Netflix series Dancing
for the Devil, the seven M TikTok.
Speaker 3 (00:33):
Cult, and I'm Kalia Gray, former member of seven M
Films and Chakana Church.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
We are better. I think we're starting to get the
hang of this.
Speaker 3 (00:41):
I think the more that we do it, the more
I'm getting excited about what we have planned for the
rest of the series.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
I'm excited to chat with Leah and hear a perspective
from family members, and I think that's something that we
always forget that even if someone hadn't experienced a high
controlled environment or was directly involved with Chakaina for a
long period of time, it could still affect them. It
still impacts them. And Leah having been the sister to Daniel,
(01:09):
who was Robert's right hand man, and with someone that
was a part of Chakaina for twenty plus years. It's
an interesting perspective.
Speaker 3 (01:18):
It really is. And you know, I think a lot
of people have talked about how Daniel was a big
part of the dancers. He was their mentor. Daniel was
one of the many pieces of why a lot of
us had left. So I think today we're really going
to dig into the disillusion of a brother and sister
bond and look at the current repercussions for Leah, how
she's processing it and all of her attempts to move
(01:41):
forward as a person, a mother and a sister. Now
here's our conversation with.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
Leah Kalia, just so you know, I've actually had the
(02:08):
opportunity to speak to Leah. We'd spoken a couple times
early into the process of developing the documentary and just
instantly connected. I think that Leah was very like honest
and she was vulnerable. But at the same time, it
was in that moment that Daniel was leaving the church,
so I think that it made things a little bit tricky,
(02:30):
and I'm just so happy that we were able to
circle back and we can have this conversation today and
introduce you to Khalia, And.
Speaker 3 (02:37):
Yeah, I really appreciate being able to have you here
to talk about just everything that had happened, and you know,
and I'm looking forward to hear what you have to say,
to hear more about you, because I think the biggest
thing that this process is like taught me is how
healing it can be to like see and like meet
other people who have had similar experiences and just I
guess that feeling of like not being alone and knowing
(02:57):
like there's other people out there who have this shared
tragic story that we can like look back on and
move past and hopefully heal and help other people who
like come in contact with it to know like they're
not alone. There's options out there for you and for
your loved ones.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
That was probably a huge thing I experienced too, is
just feeling alone. You know, my brother was in Chicina
for over twenty years. It's a hard thing to talk
to somebody about because there's really nobody that could relate
to it, like, oh, your brother's in a cult. Also, like, no, that.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
Hasn't ever happen, right, So luckily I had, you know,
my two best friends that I grew up with.
Speaker 2 (03:37):
But aside from.
Speaker 1 (03:38):
That, yeah, not really anybody else having you know, a
similar experience really because nobody really talked about it anyways,
Like I mean, I'm being sure, you know, basically just
don't talk about anything. Yeah, We've heard a few people
talk about how it's just like you're not supposed to
talk about it. And as the conversations have grown and
the people that I've spoken to, you know, we've learned
(04:00):
and about dying to your family and dying to yourself.
But that isolation and feeling like you can't speak to anyone.
I can only imagine how difficult that was. But do
you mind just taking us back? Were you part of
Chicaina in the early days. Yes, So Robert's sister is
(04:20):
my mom's like mentor, Like she's been my mom's mentor
from in the nineties. So Robert he wanted to start
his own church. So I'm not sure if he asked,
like my mom and dad, if we wanted to be
you know, members, or if maybe my parents offered like, oh,
you know, we'll help.
Speaker 2 (04:37):
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (04:37):
I don't really know how I came about. But it
was our family and a few others. It was maybe
like four or five families, and one of them was
Robert's brother and his family. We had services out of
my dad's office at the time.
Speaker 2 (04:53):
How old were you at that time? Do you remember?
Probably still in elementary school, like maybe like fifth grade,
fifth or sixth grade. Wow, we actually haven't heard much
about Julie, And to be honest, I'm not sure I
really knew Robert's siblings outside of Catherine, just because she
was talked about quite a bit by not only people
that were featured in the documentary, but also as we
had conversations with other people. So there's Julie and then
(05:16):
he his brother, and then they were all part of
the church in the beginning except for Julie. This is
what my mom told me.
Speaker 1 (05:22):
She said that Robert had asked Julie if she wanted
to also join his church, but she declined, so just
his brother and then.
Speaker 2 (05:30):
Kathy got it. Can you tell us what it was
like in the beginning and the growth that you saw
at the time that you were there.
Speaker 1 (05:38):
We never attended outside of it being at my dad's office.
And I think after my dad's office is when Robert
moved to the Norwalk location. It was like an actual
church building, But I don't know, it didn't really feel
like it grew a lot, like, if anything, maybe it
could have gotten to like maybe like fifteen people at
(05:59):
the most, Like it was not a lot of people,
like it stayed pretty small.
Speaker 2 (06:04):
And then we just left. And I don't even know
how long we were there for before we left, not
a long time, maybe a year or two. So you
and your family left and Daniel, your brother, was a
part of attending those early days. Yeah, how was that
when you all decided to leave and he stayed, well,
he didn't stay. Then we all left together. Okay, So
(06:27):
a few years later is when he went back. And
at this time she kind of had grown a lot.
They had like a pretty good, like young adult sized
group of people. And Daniel's best friend, Ryan Schen, who
is Robert's nephew, was attending there, and I think Kathy
was already there too, So it didn't seem weird at all.
Speaker 1 (06:46):
For him to go back there. If anything, he didn't
really have a choice at the time. My mom stopped
supporting his college because he didn't want to pursue.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
A medical profession. And that's pretty typical with Korean parents.
It's like, you know, you're be a doctor, dentist, or
a lawyer. And he was actually living with Julie at
the time like him and Ryan. So I guess the
opportunity came for him to go to Chokina, probably because
Ryan had started attending. It makes more sense than he
did go than stay in that situation.
Speaker 3 (07:17):
When the things starts to feel a little odd with
him being around Chakaina, I.
Speaker 1 (07:22):
Think it was when I suddenly stopped hearing from him.
We've always been really close, so it was very odd
to just suddenly just not have any contact from him.
I just remember he just felt like he had disappeared
kind of. I don't know what I thought back then.
I understand why he would want to distance himself from
our parents, but I don't understand why he would from me.
(07:43):
But at the time all that stuff came out, like
with the Wokings and they did that. It had been
maybe almost seven years, going on eight years where it
was just zero contact from Daniel, because there was a
time before that where we had gotten reconnected and then
something happened and then him and Chloe decided to cut
me off completely, which was basically like they just didn't
(08:03):
answer my phone calls or text anymore. And there wasn't
even any explanation. It was just nothing like zero, like
are you alive. I don't know, Like I just ton't
know if maybe Daniel needed help and like just couldn't
reach out for help because it just didn't make sense
for him to cut me off like that so abruptly.
Speaker 2 (08:22):
Are you comfortable sharing? Like what was the thing for
Chloe and Daniel to cut you off?
Speaker 1 (08:28):
It was like pretty close after our older brother had
passed away, and Daniel and Chloe had come to the funeral,
and it just felt like they were outsiders coming to
someone's funeral. I mean, I was glad that they came
and stuff, but that was just kind of like how
our relationship was. It was like very surface level, like
you don't ask questions. I'm just happy to see Daniel
(08:49):
at least, Like I don't really care at this point
if he doesn't want to tell us stuff, just don't
ask anything, Just be like, hey, how.
Speaker 2 (08:55):
Are you cool?
Speaker 1 (08:56):
If you're alive, you're you're hair, you seem happy. I
don't know, but I had found out that Robert was
quote unquote married to Hannah, like they were together, and
I got confused because I had had a conversation with Chloe.
Let just get you know, because Coloe and I were
close too, we're friends, and we would hang out and stuff,
and I'd asked her, so, what's up like.
Speaker 2 (09:16):
With your dad? Is he single? Like is he married?
Like is he gonna get remarried? You know?
Speaker 1 (09:20):
And like those are I feel valid questions to ask
about somebody, but not in this situation.
Speaker 2 (09:26):
You know, you don't ask those questions.
Speaker 1 (09:29):
So I think a whole day had gone by before
she like responded, and then when she had responded, it
definitely didn't seem like a response that had come from her.
Like it was very indirect and like beating around the bush,
like not really saying what they're you know, And I'm like,
it's really just like a yes or.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
No, yeah, talking in circles. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:46):
I was like, I'm so confused by what I've just read,
Like these words aren't coming together in my head. So
I did feel at that time, Okay, maybe somebody is
telling her what to say, you know. It's this was
one of those things, like another thing that it was
like my spidy senses that I have had about China
and Robert and stuff.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
And after that it was like radio silent suddenly. And
then seven years later, and.
Speaker 1 (10:12):
I would even text my brother throughout that time I
gave birth to my second daughter during that time, and
I would text him like you have a new niece,
like Rahim as Noah, and I would send pictures periodically
because I still said delivered like it never didn't say so,
I mean somebody was getting my pictures.
Speaker 2 (10:26):
You know.
Speaker 3 (10:27):
I've heard Daniel mention like his like nieces. He and
Chloe had mentioned it in the time that we were there, So.
Speaker 2 (10:34):
Yeah, Chloe had told me after they left that they
did get them, Khalia, did you ever hear them talk
about their family much outside of that? They did?
Speaker 3 (10:44):
And I think whenever like Chloe or Daniel or any
of the other mentors really talk about their family, it's
more in like a loving tone because I've talked about
how like in Chicina, a lot of the teachings are
like you're trying to get better so you can help
save your family. And so even Hannah would talk about like,
you know, it's not like I don't miss my family.
It's not like I don't love my family, but I
(11:04):
love my family so much that I want to make
sure that I can help them get into heaven. So
I'm you know, doing this like rigorous religious training so
I can get them into heaven. And I think it's
just such like opposing thoughts because what you're doing to
your family in real time, it's not love, Like it
doesn't feel like love to them. You're separating yourself from
the people who've loved and cared about you. You're missing
(11:26):
those moments with them, like the birth of your nieces,
And I'm really sorry that you had to go through
that without your brother, even though he was here. Hearing
him talk about his nieces, I was like, oh, like
he must really care about his family. And at the time,
I'm like, oh, maybe that's why he's doing this.
Speaker 2 (11:42):
You know, I never gave up hope, Like I always knew,
like I knew Daniel was there. I knew, you know,
even my parents, you know, when I would talk to
my parents about it and tell them like, I'm pretty sure,
you know, she's kind as a cult. All the red flags.
Speaker 1 (11:55):
Are there, Like it's just you know, he's an adult,
he's choosing to be there. He obviously has some issue
with us because of what we did. Just keep praying
about it, and that was just basically the response that
I got from them, And so, you know, going back
to just feeling alone and I really related to In
the documentary, your sister was saying how it feels like
her sibling is dead, but like they're all around you.
Speaker 2 (12:18):
Like it's like you have to.
Speaker 1 (12:19):
Kind of treat it like they're dead just to kind
of like cope or just understand because they're not dead,
but it feels like it because you can't reach them
or talk to them, but they're alive, and I don't know,
It's just it's a terrible feeling.
Speaker 3 (12:32):
I'm so sorry.
Speaker 2 (12:33):
And Leeah, I'm so sorry because going back like you
had lost a brother and you know what that feels like,
and so to have your other brother and knowing that
how close you all were and feeling like you've lost
that person too, Like I can't even imagine I'm so
close to my siblings and what that would be like.
And so I'm so sorry for the loss of your
(12:54):
brother and for the feeling of loss of one that
was still there but wasn't. So I just can't imagine
that was easy. But as I started to look into
the story, you were pretty active in the comments, and
that was the first time that we kind of learned
of you and Daniel in the relationship and that he
(13:16):
had a sister. Of course, what was that like for
you after the Instagram live and just seeing all of
these reports coming out and knowing that your brother's now
being thrust into the conversation, Like, what was that time
like for you? It was a time. It was a time.
Speaker 1 (13:32):
I remember it was like a weekend and I had
both my girls at home, and I was like, I
need to lot myself in the bedroom, like I need
to like read all of these things, like what is
going on? Because I didn't even know the TikTok dance
thing that was happening, Like I didn't even know anything that.
Speaker 2 (13:47):
Was going on.
Speaker 1 (13:47):
So like, so suddenly to have stuff about Robert out
in the open, and to have the Wilkins family of
talking about Miranda and wanting to get her out, it
was like.
Speaker 2 (13:57):
Oh my gosh, Like, oh my gosh. And then I
was obviously was thinking, where it's Daniel and all of this,
We'll be right back after the break, welcome back to
forgive me for I have followed. So while we were
(14:18):
filming the documentary, while we were in this process in
real time, Daniel and Chloe Leaf which is seen in
the documentary, and we did reach out to them and Ultimately,
they decided not to participate in the documentary, which is
totally understandable. Everyone has to do it and speak about
it on their own time. What was that like for
(14:39):
you when you had heard that they had left.
Speaker 1 (14:43):
So when everything was coming out with the social media
and then Katie Joy, she was posting all this information
that I've been wanting to know for so many years,
and now suddenly like, who's this person who has all
this information, and like maybe she can find out about
like Daniel. And so I reached out to her and
we started talking and she would tell me like stuff
that she was uncovering in her investigations, and I just
(15:06):
wanted to know if my brother was okay. And I
don't know if she had suggested it, but that post
that she had made that was from me. She let
me use her platform, you know, it was the pictures
of me and Daniel, and I just wanted to just
get a message to him and tell him that, you know,
I love you, I'm here. You know, I've always been here,
Like if you need to leave, we're here, we love you,
(15:28):
we miss you, Like I don't know what else, you know.
I got a message from him, like a day after
that post and that was you know, again almost seven
eight years not hearing from him.
Speaker 2 (15:40):
So I was obviously upset.
Speaker 1 (15:44):
But happy and like it was another overwhelm of emotion
like I'm angry and sad, but I love you. I'm
so happy, Like how dare you? Don't ever talk to
me again? But don't ever do this to me again.
It was like, you know, like who are you?
Speaker 2 (15:56):
Like are you my brother? Like is this really you?
Speaker 1 (15:57):
Like you know, I have all of the thoughts like
suspicious and like who's telling you to do this? Like
why are you contacting me now? Like is it because
I made that post? Like well, I guess it worked then,
Like I mean if I knew that just thinking an
Instagram post would have I don't know that. He was
just telling me careful because of all the stuff that's
going on, like everything being like exposed now. And it
(16:19):
was shortly after when I discovered him and Chloe were
planning their exit. He wanted to meet up for the
first time, and I had all of the suspicions still,
like is Robert trying to lure me away? Like I
had to think of all the things. I was like,
am I in danger? But it was just for like
a week or more. Like I was just a wreck
because I never imagined, like in my life that I
(16:41):
would ever tell my brother, no, I can't meet you,
because I had been wanting to just see him this
whole time. And it was like a sharp, burning, scouting,
hot knife, like going through my body, like over and
over having to tell and like no, like I can't
meet you because like I don't know, like what if
Robert's around the corner. So at that time, I felt
(17:02):
like maybe I should just wait a little bit.
Speaker 3 (17:05):
So at what point did you realize that Daniel was
actually getting away from these people.
Speaker 1 (17:09):
They actually did end up seeing each other for the
first time a few weeks after the time I had
rejected seeing him, and they came over, and it took
me a minute to like feel fully like comfortable after
the second or third time, and you know, after talking
to them, I was able to fully trust that they
(17:30):
had left. I could see it in their mannerisms and
when they would talk, you know, the realization coming to
them as they would talk about Robert and the red
flags that they didn't see then. But now it's just overwhelming,
like how just we didn't see it, or just we didn't.
Speaker 2 (17:46):
Know, and would you feel comfortable sharing any of the
red flags for them that they may have be shared
at that time, His.
Speaker 1 (17:53):
Behavior towards them completely flipped. They could just see more
clearly like his when it be lived our sistic things
that he would do, basically that you know, he doesn't
care for anybody or love anybody other than himself, and
absolutely everything that he does is only for his own
gain and pleasure and whatever. It doesn't even matter if
(18:14):
you're his own daughter. Basically, you know, if he can't
use you for what he wants to use you for,
you're dead to him. And so I think that's what
was just more apparent to them when they were trying
to make their exit.
Speaker 2 (18:29):
Since he's been out, how's that relationship with your brother?
He lives far away, not far away, but you know,
he doesn't live near me. When he told me that
he was planning on moving maybe they had been out
for six months. Were you seeing him a lot before
they moved away.
Speaker 1 (18:45):
Yeah, At the time, they were living close to my
parents and so we would see them weekly. So it
was nice and it was also interesting too because it
was like I could see the real Daniel like coming out.
It was overwhelming for me because then I would think about,
you know, all the years that were taken from us,
and like then he you know, decided to move away,
(19:08):
which also he said was the first time in his
basically his whole adult life from being eighteen, that he
made a decision on his own. As painful and as
sad as I was to, you know, have him tell
me that he was now going to be moving I
was also like happy for him, but then also I'm
just so mad and sad. It like messed me up
(19:30):
for a while just thinking about how him, as an
adult at forty forty one, is now making a decision
for the first time in his life on his own,
without anybody else's influence. This is what he's deciding to
do because he wants to. This is what he wants
to do with his life.
Speaker 3 (19:45):
And it's so powerful and just like a big testament
to his healing, because I know that's been a big
issue for a lot of people, especially to people that
have been in Chikina for multiple years, of like being
able to make the choices on your own. And yeah, I'm.
Speaker 2 (19:58):
Really happy to hear that.
Speaker 3 (20:00):
It sounds like he's moving forward and taking the time
to heal.
Speaker 2 (20:06):
You're listening to forgive me for I have followed. We'll
be right back. Welcome back to forgive me for I
have followed. So, how did you feel about watching the documentary?
Speaker 1 (20:21):
Well, when the trailer came out. When I saw the trailer,
it was like an immediate waterfall of just tears, Like
I just was like ugly crying, Like it just felt
so surreal because, you know, something that I've had to
just keep bottled up to see it now, you know,
in the documentary and like people other people's stories, and
to have it out it was just overwhelming. And then
(20:43):
when I finally did watch it to see the parents
and how they're being proactive and trying to get their kids,
and you know, that was like a hard thing for
me to watch because my parents they didn't do that.
The way they've been about the whole thing was very like, uh,
you know, just praying about it. I just felt that
they didn't hear anything that I was saying. So, yeah,
(21:05):
when it came out, I told them right away, like,
did you guys watch the documentary? Like I told you,
I'm very thankful to have met you and for your
honesty and vulnerability and just the reminder that you are
not alone. I am here if you ever need anything
or just someone to talk to. And I'm so happy
that you and Daniel and Chloe have reconnected, although not
(21:28):
in exactly the way that you would hope, it's nice
to know that that option's there. Yeah, it's got to
be crazy just living out in the world after being
in there for so long, but just goad they're not
there anymore.
Speaker 3 (21:42):
What is your relationship with him today and that he's away?
Speaker 2 (21:45):
Do you talk?
Speaker 3 (21:46):
Do you?
Speaker 1 (21:47):
We do not very often, like will randomly just text
each other, like you know, I love you, I miss you,
thinking about you. They're in a different state, So it's like,
I'm just not good at like keeping in touch with people,
like unless you're like in front of me, in my face,
Like I can only handle like what I see constantly.
But I'm grateful for just even having that to be
(22:09):
able to dis communicate with him and with Chloe too.
Speaker 3 (22:12):
Oh absolutely, you know I kind of want to just
like ask, how do you feel now speaking up about
this and like, you know, this platform is for everyone
involved to like be able to share their story, and
you know, what do you hope comes out of you
speaking today with us.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
Like you guys are saying, maybe somebody who maybe knew
me from the past, or that was in Chicino or
that hasn't spoken up, maybe if they wanted to, like share,
Because for me, it definitely is healing to be able
to talk about it and just not feel like I'm
being shushed. There is something very therapeutic about sharing and
(22:50):
also sharing with people that like get it.
Speaker 1 (22:53):
Yeah, that is a huge thing people that are on
that level of understanding. Yeah, And that was something my
mom had even had said, like what's your reason for
doing the podcast or interview thing? You know, you didn't
even go to Chechina, like you weren't there later on
and I was like, well, no, I wasn't, but my
brother was there and it affected our lives like a lot.
(23:13):
You know, the reach of Robert goes way past the
people that are just in Chicina. You know, he took
your son away from you for like twenty years, like
in a vulnerable time where you didn't have any other option.
Speaker 2 (23:24):
You know. I think that reminder too, because that's one
thing that you mentioned with the parents. It was difficult
to watch the documentary and see that and people don't
understand the impact that it has on the families. And
Khalia you touched on this a little bit too, of
like when you're dying to yourself and you're cutting off
your family thinking that you're doing something great for them,
(23:45):
how difficult it is on the family. We've heard from
other people that were also in previous episodes of the podcast.
You know, Marilyn shared that like that relationship is still
being rebuilt. It doesn't just happen overnight. People think that
like they get out, you reconnect with your family and
all is well. There's a lot of hurt that was had,
(24:06):
and I think it's important for family members to speak up.
You are impacted. So yes, you may have not been
in there for as long as you know your brother
or experience things that other people have, but I appreciate
you sharing your feelings about what it was like to
have lost that contact with someone that was pulled into
(24:27):
something like that. So it matters, and your voice deserves
to be heard and it should be heard as well
because it impacted you. So again, thank you, Thank you
for your time and your vulnerability.
Speaker 3 (24:41):
Thank you, Yes, and I really wish you and your
family the best and all the healing and the relationships
really gets back to what it needs to be.
Speaker 2 (24:51):
Beggars Cross Cross.
Speaker 3 (25:02):
I really feel for Leah because we've all heard the
story of how Miranda's sister has felt so now here
we have the opportunity to speak with another sister brother
sister bond, but sibling bond that was affected by their
involvement with this church. I feel for her when she
says that she couldn't really voice it, questions came with consequences.
(25:24):
I'm really grateful. It reminds me of why we sat
down and did this in the first place. And I
think every episode that we do kind of pushes me
forward to want to do more and more and like
open the floor up for the people who need that
healing and want to talk and deserve to have their
voices heard. Absolutely, and I'm excited to see what more
we do and we will be back next week with
(25:44):
another episode of Forgive Me.
Speaker 2 (25:46):
For I Have Followed?
Speaker 3 (25:48):
Take Care Forgive Me For I Have Followed is a
production from wv Sound, Dirty Robert and iHeartMedia's my Kuolta
podcast network, hosted by me Kaliah Gray and me Jess
Cossabetto Give Me For I Have Followed is produced by
Aaron Burlson and Sophie Spencer zabos Our.
Speaker 2 (26:04):
Executive producers are Khalia Gray, myself, Wilmar Valderrama, Leo Klam
and Aaron Burlson at WV Sound.
Speaker 3 (26:11):
This episode was edited by Sean Tracy and features original
music by Madison Davenport and Halo Boy. For more podcasts
from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever
you listen to your favorite shows.
Speaker 2 (26:23):
See you next week, See you next week,
I had been wanting to just see him this whole time,
and it was like a sharp, burning, scolding, hot knife,
like going through my body, like over and over, having
to tell and like no, like is Robert trying to
lure me away?
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Welcome back to forgive me for I have followed. I'm
Jessica Ossavetto, executive producer of the hit Netflix series Dancing
for the Devil, the seven M TikTok.
Speaker 3 (00:33):
Cult, and I'm Kalia Gray, former member of seven M
Films and Chakana Church.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
We are better. I think we're starting to get the
hang of this.
Speaker 3 (00:41):
I think the more that we do it, the more
I'm getting excited about what we have planned for the
rest of the series.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
I'm excited to chat with Leah and hear a perspective
from family members, and I think that's something that we
always forget that even if someone hadn't experienced a high
controlled environment or was directly involved with Chakaina for a
long period of time, it could still affect them. It
still impacts them. And Leah having been the sister to Daniel,
(01:09):
who was Robert's right hand man, and with someone that
was a part of Chakaina for twenty plus years. It's
an interesting perspective.
Speaker 3 (01:18):
It really is. And you know, I think a lot
of people have talked about how Daniel was a big
part of the dancers. He was their mentor. Daniel was
one of the many pieces of why a lot of
us had left. So I think today we're really going
to dig into the disillusion of a brother and sister
bond and look at the current repercussions for Leah, how
she's processing it and all of her attempts to move
(01:41):
forward as a person, a mother and a sister. Now
here's our conversation with.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
Leah Kalia, just so you know, I've actually had the
(02:08):
opportunity to speak to Leah. We'd spoken a couple times
early into the process of developing the documentary and just
instantly connected. I think that Leah was very like honest
and she was vulnerable. But at the same time, it
was in that moment that Daniel was leaving the church,
so I think that it made things a little bit tricky,
(02:30):
and I'm just so happy that we were able to
circle back and we can have this conversation today and
introduce you to Khalia, And.
Speaker 3 (02:37):
Yeah, I really appreciate being able to have you here
to talk about just everything that had happened, and you know,
and I'm looking forward to hear what you have to say,
to hear more about you, because I think the biggest
thing that this process is like taught me is how
healing it can be to like see and like meet
other people who have had similar experiences and just I
guess that feeling of like not being alone and knowing
(02:57):
like there's other people out there who have this shared
tragic story that we can like look back on and
move past and hopefully heal and help other people who
like come in contact with it to know like they're
not alone. There's options out there for you and for
your loved ones.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
That was probably a huge thing I experienced too, is
just feeling alone. You know, my brother was in Chicina
for over twenty years. It's a hard thing to talk
to somebody about because there's really nobody that could relate
to it, like, oh, your brother's in a cult. Also, like, no, that.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
Hasn't ever happen, right, So luckily I had, you know,
my two best friends that I grew up with.
Speaker 2 (03:37):
But aside from.
Speaker 1 (03:38):
That, yeah, not really anybody else having you know, a
similar experience really because nobody really talked about it anyways,
Like I mean, I'm being sure, you know, basically just
don't talk about anything. Yeah, We've heard a few people
talk about how it's just like you're not supposed to
talk about it. And as the conversations have grown and
the people that I've spoken to, you know, we've learned
(04:00):
and about dying to your family and dying to yourself.
But that isolation and feeling like you can't speak to anyone.
I can only imagine how difficult that was. But do
you mind just taking us back? Were you part of
Chicaina in the early days. Yes, So Robert's sister is
(04:20):
my mom's like mentor, Like she's been my mom's mentor
from in the nineties. So Robert he wanted to start
his own church. So I'm not sure if he asked,
like my mom and dad, if we wanted to be
you know, members, or if maybe my parents offered like, oh,
you know, we'll help.
Speaker 2 (04:37):
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (04:37):
I don't really know how I came about. But it
was our family and a few others. It was maybe
like four or five families, and one of them was
Robert's brother and his family. We had services out of
my dad's office at the time.
Speaker 2 (04:53):
How old were you at that time? Do you remember?
Probably still in elementary school, like maybe like fifth grade,
fifth or sixth grade. Wow, we actually haven't heard much
about Julie, And to be honest, I'm not sure I
really knew Robert's siblings outside of Catherine, just because she
was talked about quite a bit by not only people
that were featured in the documentary, but also as we
had conversations with other people. So there's Julie and then
(05:16):
he his brother, and then they were all part of
the church in the beginning except for Julie. This is
what my mom told me.
Speaker 1 (05:22):
She said that Robert had asked Julie if she wanted
to also join his church, but she declined, so just
his brother and then.
Speaker 2 (05:30):
Kathy got it. Can you tell us what it was
like in the beginning and the growth that you saw
at the time that you were there.
Speaker 1 (05:38):
We never attended outside of it being at my dad's office.
And I think after my dad's office is when Robert
moved to the Norwalk location. It was like an actual
church building, But I don't know, it didn't really feel
like it grew a lot, like, if anything, maybe it
could have gotten to like maybe like fifteen people at
(05:59):
the most, Like it was not a lot of people,
like it stayed pretty small.
Speaker 2 (06:04):
And then we just left. And I don't even know
how long we were there for before we left, not
a long time, maybe a year or two. So you
and your family left and Daniel, your brother, was a
part of attending those early days. Yeah, how was that
when you all decided to leave and he stayed, well,
he didn't stay. Then we all left together. Okay, So
(06:27):
a few years later is when he went back. And
at this time she kind of had grown a lot.
They had like a pretty good, like young adult sized
group of people. And Daniel's best friend, Ryan Schen, who
is Robert's nephew, was attending there, and I think Kathy
was already there too, So it didn't seem weird at all.
Speaker 1 (06:46):
For him to go back there. If anything, he didn't
really have a choice at the time. My mom stopped
supporting his college because he didn't want to pursue.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
A medical profession. And that's pretty typical with Korean parents.
It's like, you know, you're be a doctor, dentist, or
a lawyer. And he was actually living with Julie at
the time like him and Ryan. So I guess the
opportunity came for him to go to Chokina, probably because
Ryan had started attending. It makes more sense than he
did go than stay in that situation.
Speaker 3 (07:17):
When the things starts to feel a little odd with
him being around Chakaina, I.
Speaker 1 (07:22):
Think it was when I suddenly stopped hearing from him.
We've always been really close, so it was very odd
to just suddenly just not have any contact from him.
I just remember he just felt like he had disappeared
kind of. I don't know what I thought back then.
I understand why he would want to distance himself from
our parents, but I don't understand why he would from me.
(07:43):
But at the time all that stuff came out, like
with the Wokings and they did that. It had been
maybe almost seven years, going on eight years where it
was just zero contact from Daniel, because there was a
time before that where we had gotten reconnected and then
something happened and then him and Chloe decided to cut
me off completely, which was basically like they just didn't
(08:03):
answer my phone calls or text anymore. And there wasn't
even any explanation. It was just nothing like zero, like
are you alive. I don't know, Like I just ton't
know if maybe Daniel needed help and like just couldn't
reach out for help because it just didn't make sense
for him to cut me off like that so abruptly.
Speaker 2 (08:22):
Are you comfortable sharing? Like what was the thing for
Chloe and Daniel to cut you off?
Speaker 1 (08:28):
It was like pretty close after our older brother had
passed away, and Daniel and Chloe had come to the funeral,
and it just felt like they were outsiders coming to
someone's funeral. I mean, I was glad that they came
and stuff, but that was just kind of like how
our relationship was. It was like very surface level, like
you don't ask questions. I'm just happy to see Daniel
(08:49):
at least, Like I don't really care at this point
if he doesn't want to tell us stuff, just don't
ask anything, Just be like, hey, how.
Speaker 2 (08:55):
Are you cool?
Speaker 1 (08:56):
If you're alive, you're you're hair, you seem happy. I
don't know, but I had found out that Robert was
quote unquote married to Hannah, like they were together, and
I got confused because I had had a conversation with Chloe.
Let just get you know, because Coloe and I were
close too, we're friends, and we would hang out and stuff,
and I'd asked her, so, what's up like.
Speaker 2 (09:16):
With your dad? Is he single? Like is he married?
Like is he gonna get remarried? You know?
Speaker 1 (09:20):
And like those are I feel valid questions to ask
about somebody, but not in this situation.
Speaker 2 (09:26):
You know, you don't ask those questions.
Speaker 1 (09:29):
So I think a whole day had gone by before
she like responded, and then when she had responded, it
definitely didn't seem like a response that had come from her.
Like it was very indirect and like beating around the bush,
like not really saying what they're you know, And I'm like,
it's really just like a yes or.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
No, yeah, talking in circles. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:46):
I was like, I'm so confused by what I've just read,
Like these words aren't coming together in my head. So
I did feel at that time, Okay, maybe somebody is
telling her what to say, you know. It's this was
one of those things, like another thing that it was
like my spidy senses that I have had about China
and Robert and stuff.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
And after that it was like radio silent suddenly. And
then seven years later, and.
Speaker 1 (10:12):
I would even text my brother throughout that time I
gave birth to my second daughter during that time, and
I would text him like you have a new niece,
like Rahim as Noah, and I would send pictures periodically
because I still said delivered like it never didn't say so,
I mean somebody was getting my pictures.
Speaker 2 (10:26):
You know.
Speaker 3 (10:27):
I've heard Daniel mention like his like nieces. He and
Chloe had mentioned it in the time that we were there, So.
Speaker 2 (10:34):
Yeah, Chloe had told me after they left that they
did get them, Khalia, did you ever hear them talk
about their family much outside of that? They did?
Speaker 3 (10:44):
And I think whenever like Chloe or Daniel or any
of the other mentors really talk about their family, it's
more in like a loving tone because I've talked about
how like in Chicina, a lot of the teachings are
like you're trying to get better so you can help
save your family. And so even Hannah would talk about like,
you know, it's not like I don't miss my family.
It's not like I don't love my family, but I
(11:04):
love my family so much that I want to make
sure that I can help them get into heaven. So
I'm you know, doing this like rigorous religious training so
I can get them into heaven. And I think it's
just such like opposing thoughts because what you're doing to
your family in real time, it's not love, Like it
doesn't feel like love to them. You're separating yourself from
the people who've loved and cared about you. You're missing
(11:26):
those moments with them, like the birth of your nieces,
And I'm really sorry that you had to go through
that without your brother, even though he was here. Hearing
him talk about his nieces, I was like, oh, like
he must really care about his family. And at the time,
I'm like, oh, maybe that's why he's doing this.
Speaker 2 (11:42):
You know, I never gave up hope, Like I always knew,
like I knew Daniel was there. I knew, you know,
even my parents, you know, when I would talk to
my parents about it and tell them like, I'm pretty sure,
you know, she's kind as a cult. All the red flags.
Speaker 1 (11:55):
Are there, Like it's just you know, he's an adult,
he's choosing to be there. He obviously has some issue
with us because of what we did. Just keep praying
about it, and that was just basically the response that
I got from them, And so, you know, going back
to just feeling alone and I really related to In
the documentary, your sister was saying how it feels like
her sibling is dead, but like they're all around you.
Speaker 2 (12:18):
Like it's like you have to.
Speaker 1 (12:19):
Kind of treat it like they're dead just to kind
of like cope or just understand because they're not dead,
but it feels like it because you can't reach them
or talk to them, but they're alive, and I don't know,
It's just it's a terrible feeling.
Speaker 3 (12:32):
I'm so sorry.
Speaker 2 (12:33):
And Leeah, I'm so sorry because going back like you
had lost a brother and you know what that feels like,
and so to have your other brother and knowing that
how close you all were and feeling like you've lost
that person too, Like I can't even imagine I'm so
close to my siblings and what that would be like.
And so I'm so sorry for the loss of your
(12:54):
brother and for the feeling of loss of one that
was still there but wasn't. So I just can't imagine
that was easy. But as I started to look into
the story, you were pretty active in the comments, and
that was the first time that we kind of learned
of you and Daniel in the relationship and that he
(13:16):
had a sister. Of course, what was that like for
you after the Instagram live and just seeing all of
these reports coming out and knowing that your brother's now
being thrust into the conversation, Like, what was that time
like for you? It was a time. It was a time.
Speaker 1 (13:32):
I remember it was like a weekend and I had
both my girls at home, and I was like, I
need to lot myself in the bedroom, like I need
to like read all of these things, like what is
going on? Because I didn't even know the TikTok dance
thing that was happening, Like I didn't even know anything that.
Speaker 2 (13:47):
Was going on.
Speaker 1 (13:47):
So like, so suddenly to have stuff about Robert out
in the open, and to have the Wilkins family of
talking about Miranda and wanting to get her out, it
was like.
Speaker 2 (13:57):
Oh my gosh, Like, oh my gosh. And then I
was obviously was thinking, where it's Daniel and all of this,
We'll be right back after the break, welcome back to
forgive me for I have followed. So while we were
(14:18):
filming the documentary, while we were in this process in
real time, Daniel and Chloe Leaf which is seen in
the documentary, and we did reach out to them and Ultimately,
they decided not to participate in the documentary, which is
totally understandable. Everyone has to do it and speak about
it on their own time. What was that like for
(14:39):
you when you had heard that they had left.
Speaker 1 (14:43):
So when everything was coming out with the social media
and then Katie Joy, she was posting all this information
that I've been wanting to know for so many years,
and now suddenly like, who's this person who has all
this information, and like maybe she can find out about
like Daniel. And so I reached out to her and
we started talking and she would tell me like stuff
that she was uncovering in her investigations, and I just
(15:06):
wanted to know if my brother was okay. And I
don't know if she had suggested it, but that post
that she had made that was from me. She let
me use her platform, you know, it was the pictures
of me and Daniel, and I just wanted to just
get a message to him and tell him that, you know,
I love you, I'm here. You know, I've always been here,
Like if you need to leave, we're here, we love you,
(15:28):
we miss you, Like I don't know what else, you know.
I got a message from him, like a day after
that post and that was you know, again almost seven
eight years not hearing from him.
Speaker 2 (15:40):
So I was obviously upset.
Speaker 1 (15:44):
But happy and like it was another overwhelm of emotion
like I'm angry and sad, but I love you. I'm
so happy, Like how dare you? Don't ever talk to
me again? But don't ever do this to me again.
It was like, you know, like who are you?
Speaker 2 (15:56):
Like are you my brother? Like is this really you?
Speaker 1 (15:57):
Like you know, I have all of the thoughts like
suspicious and like who's telling you to do this? Like
why are you contacting me now? Like is it because
I made that post? Like well, I guess it worked then,
Like I mean if I knew that just thinking an
Instagram post would have I don't know that. He was
just telling me careful because of all the stuff that's
going on, like everything being like exposed now. And it
(16:19):
was shortly after when I discovered him and Chloe were
planning their exit. He wanted to meet up for the
first time, and I had all of the suspicions still,
like is Robert trying to lure me away? Like I
had to think of all the things. I was like,
am I in danger? But it was just for like
a week or more. Like I was just a wreck
because I never imagined, like in my life that I
(16:41):
would ever tell my brother, no, I can't meet you,
because I had been wanting to just see him this
whole time. And it was like a sharp, burning, scouting,
hot knife, like going through my body, like over and
over having to tell and like no, like I can't
meet you because like I don't know, like what if
Robert's around the corner. So at that time, I felt
(17:02):
like maybe I should just wait a little bit.
Speaker 3 (17:05):
So at what point did you realize that Daniel was
actually getting away from these people.
Speaker 1 (17:09):
They actually did end up seeing each other for the
first time a few weeks after the time I had
rejected seeing him, and they came over, and it took
me a minute to like feel fully like comfortable after
the second or third time, and you know, after talking
to them, I was able to fully trust that they
(17:30):
had left. I could see it in their mannerisms and
when they would talk, you know, the realization coming to
them as they would talk about Robert and the red
flags that they didn't see then. But now it's just overwhelming,
like how just we didn't see it, or just we didn't.
Speaker 2 (17:46):
Know, and would you feel comfortable sharing any of the
red flags for them that they may have be shared
at that time, His.
Speaker 1 (17:53):
Behavior towards them completely flipped. They could just see more
clearly like his when it be lived our sistic things
that he would do, basically that you know, he doesn't
care for anybody or love anybody other than himself, and
absolutely everything that he does is only for his own
gain and pleasure and whatever. It doesn't even matter if
(18:14):
you're his own daughter. Basically, you know, if he can't
use you for what he wants to use you for,
you're dead to him. And so I think that's what
was just more apparent to them when they were trying
to make their exit.
Speaker 2 (18:29):
Since he's been out, how's that relationship with your brother?
He lives far away, not far away, but you know,
he doesn't live near me. When he told me that
he was planning on moving maybe they had been out
for six months. Were you seeing him a lot before
they moved away.
Speaker 1 (18:45):
Yeah, At the time, they were living close to my
parents and so we would see them weekly. So it
was nice and it was also interesting too because it
was like I could see the real Daniel like coming out.
It was overwhelming for me because then I would think about,
you know, all the years that were taken from us,
and like then he you know, decided to move away,
(19:08):
which also he said was the first time in his
basically his whole adult life from being eighteen, that he
made a decision on his own. As painful and as
sad as I was to, you know, have him tell
me that he was now going to be moving I
was also like happy for him, but then also I'm
just so mad and sad. It like messed me up
(19:30):
for a while just thinking about how him, as an
adult at forty forty one, is now making a decision
for the first time in his life on his own,
without anybody else's influence. This is what he's deciding to
do because he wants to. This is what he wants
to do with his life.
Speaker 3 (19:45):
And it's so powerful and just like a big testament
to his healing, because I know that's been a big
issue for a lot of people, especially to people that
have been in Chikina for multiple years, of like being
able to make the choices on your own. And yeah, I'm.
Speaker 2 (19:58):
Really happy to hear that.
Speaker 3 (20:00):
It sounds like he's moving forward and taking the time
to heal.
Speaker 2 (20:06):
You're listening to forgive me for I have followed. We'll
be right back. Welcome back to forgive me for I
have followed. So, how did you feel about watching the documentary?
Speaker 1 (20:21):
Well, when the trailer came out. When I saw the trailer,
it was like an immediate waterfall of just tears, Like
I just was like ugly crying, Like it just felt
so surreal because, you know, something that I've had to
just keep bottled up to see it now, you know,
in the documentary and like people other people's stories, and
to have it out it was just overwhelming. And then
(20:43):
when I finally did watch it to see the parents
and how they're being proactive and trying to get their kids,
and you know, that was like a hard thing for
me to watch because my parents they didn't do that.
The way they've been about the whole thing was very like, uh,
you know, just praying about it. I just felt that
they didn't hear anything that I was saying. So, yeah,
(21:05):
when it came out, I told them right away, like,
did you guys watch the documentary? Like I told you,
I'm very thankful to have met you and for your
honesty and vulnerability and just the reminder that you are
not alone. I am here if you ever need anything
or just someone to talk to. And I'm so happy
that you and Daniel and Chloe have reconnected, although not
(21:28):
in exactly the way that you would hope, it's nice
to know that that option's there. Yeah, it's got to
be crazy just living out in the world after being
in there for so long, but just goad they're not
there anymore.
Speaker 3 (21:42):
What is your relationship with him today and that he's away?
Speaker 2 (21:45):
Do you talk?
Speaker 3 (21:46):
Do you?
Speaker 1 (21:47):
We do not very often, like will randomly just text
each other, like you know, I love you, I miss you,
thinking about you. They're in a different state, So it's like,
I'm just not good at like keeping in touch with people,
like unless you're like in front of me, in my face,
Like I can only handle like what I see constantly.
But I'm grateful for just even having that to be
(22:09):
able to dis communicate with him and with Chloe too.
Speaker 3 (22:12):
Oh absolutely, you know I kind of want to just
like ask, how do you feel now speaking up about
this and like, you know, this platform is for everyone
involved to like be able to share their story, and
you know, what do you hope comes out of you
speaking today with us.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
Like you guys are saying, maybe somebody who maybe knew
me from the past, or that was in Chicino or
that hasn't spoken up, maybe if they wanted to, like share,
Because for me, it definitely is healing to be able
to talk about it and just not feel like I'm
being shushed. There is something very therapeutic about sharing and
(22:50):
also sharing with people that like get it.
Speaker 1 (22:53):
Yeah, that is a huge thing people that are on
that level of understanding. Yeah, And that was something my
mom had even had said, like what's your reason for
doing the podcast or interview thing? You know, you didn't
even go to Chechina, like you weren't there later on
and I was like, well, no, I wasn't, but my
brother was there and it affected our lives like a lot.
(23:13):
You know, the reach of Robert goes way past the
people that are just in Chicina. You know, he took
your son away from you for like twenty years, like
in a vulnerable time where you didn't have any other option.
Speaker 2 (23:24):
You know. I think that reminder too, because that's one
thing that you mentioned with the parents. It was difficult
to watch the documentary and see that and people don't
understand the impact that it has on the families. And
Khalia you touched on this a little bit too, of
like when you're dying to yourself and you're cutting off
your family thinking that you're doing something great for them,
(23:45):
how difficult it is on the family. We've heard from
other people that were also in previous episodes of the podcast.
You know, Marilyn shared that like that relationship is still
being rebuilt. It doesn't just happen overnight. People think that
like they get out, you reconnect with your family and
all is well. There's a lot of hurt that was had,
(24:06):
and I think it's important for family members to speak up.
You are impacted. So yes, you may have not been
in there for as long as you know your brother
or experience things that other people have, but I appreciate
you sharing your feelings about what it was like to
have lost that contact with someone that was pulled into
(24:27):
something like that. So it matters, and your voice deserves
to be heard and it should be heard as well
because it impacted you. So again, thank you, Thank you
for your time and your vulnerability.
Speaker 3 (24:41):
Thank you, Yes, and I really wish you and your
family the best and all the healing and the relationships
really gets back to what it needs to be.
Speaker 2 (24:51):
Beggars Cross Cross.
Speaker 3 (25:02):
I really feel for Leah because we've all heard the
story of how Miranda's sister has felt so now here
we have the opportunity to speak with another sister brother
sister bond, but sibling bond that was affected by their
involvement with this church. I feel for her when she
says that she couldn't really voice it, questions came with consequences.
(25:24):
I'm really grateful. It reminds me of why we sat
down and did this in the first place. And I
think every episode that we do kind of pushes me
forward to want to do more and more and like
open the floor up for the people who need that
healing and want to talk and deserve to have their
voices heard. Absolutely, and I'm excited to see what more
we do and we will be back next week with
(25:44):
another episode of Forgive Me.
Speaker 2 (25:46):
For I Have Followed?
Speaker 3 (25:48):
Take Care Forgive Me For I Have Followed is a
production from wv Sound, Dirty Robert and iHeartMedia's my Kuolta
podcast network, hosted by me Kaliah Gray and me Jess
Cossabetto Give Me For I Have Followed is produced by
Aaron Burlson and Sophie Spencer zabos Our.
Speaker 2 (26:04):
Executive producers are Khalia Gray, myself, Wilmar Valderrama, Leo Klam
and Aaron Burlson at WV Sound.
Speaker 3 (26:11):
This episode was edited by Sean Tracy and features original
music by Madison Davenport and Halo Boy. For more podcasts
from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever
you listen to your favorite shows.
Speaker 2 (26:23):
See you next week, See you next week,
Hosts And Creators
Jessica Acevedo
Kailea Gray
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com