September 19, 2024 • 34 mins
In this episode, we examine the theme of “Dying to Yourself” and the extreme measures for spiritual connection promoted by Shekinah Church. Former member Marilyn shares her personal experience, including her decision to join the church and the intense motivation that led her to uproot her family from their newly purchased home.
*The following is based on actual events. Certain composite and representative materials and characters have been used for dramatic purposes.
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
You just can't even think for yourself sometimes anymore. You're
just like, Okay, what do I do now? Like can
I do this? Can I eat this? Can I buy this?
Finally finding out I was pregnant and how they treated me,
that was just like the last straw.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
I was like, oh, no, welcome back to forgive me
for I have followed. I'm Jessica Ossabetto, executive producer of
the hit Netflix series Dancing for the Devil the seven
M TikTok Cult. The documentary series explored the stories of
former members of seven M Films and the La based
(00:39):
Chakaina Church on their healing journeys. Pastor Robert Schin founded
Chakaina Church in La over two decades ago before establishing
seven M Films. He is also named in a civil
lawsuit alleging abuse and cult like behavior.
Speaker 3 (00:52):
And I'm Kalia Gray, former member of seven M Films
and Chakina Church. This podcast picks up where the series
left off and we'll examine the personal stories of those
affected by Robert Chicina and seven M Films. On today's episode,
we dive deep with Marilyn, a former member of Shakaina Church.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
Marilyn once believed that dedicating her life to God through
Chicaina and Pastor Robert Schen was the best choice for
her and her growing family. However, she soon discovered.
Speaker 4 (01:18):
That wasn't the case.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
Throughout our conversation with Marilyn, we explored the theme of
dying to yourself and the extreme practices promoted by the
church's Chakaina mentorship program. Marilyn will share her reasons for
joining the church and the intense motivation that led her
to not only uproot her family, but also to sell
their newly purchased home.
Speaker 3 (01:38):
Own By the way, Marilyn and I were also roommates.
Her husband and daughter lived with my husband, Kevin and I.
We'll talk more about that a little bit later, but
for now, Marilyn is going to recount the pivotal events
that promoted her to leave Shakina reclaim her life in detail,
the challenging process of her departure, and now our conversation
with Marilyn.
Speaker 2 (02:06):
I had the absolute pleasure of speaking with Marilyn while
we were developing the documentary. Unfortunately, we weren't able to
include her story due to time, but I was so
thankful for her time and it was really insightful, and
I think given the relationship with you, Kahalia, and even
what we had heard in episode one about how you
(02:27):
all lived together, it made the most sense that she
would be the first person that we would try to
get for this podcast. So, Marilyn, thank you so much
for joining us and chatting with us today.
Speaker 1 (02:38):
Well, definitely thank you guys for having me and letting
me be a part of this.
Speaker 3 (02:43):
Yeah, and I just want to say I do really
appreciate you being here because, like Marilyn and I haven't
really had a full sit down to talk about our
experiences with Chicaina. I know we spoke briefly when I
first left, but it's been some time since, and I
just feel like there's so much more to say and
like so much more to like dig into about like
(03:03):
our experiences there and we lived together. There really was
so much there's I have so much I want to ask,
and I hope everything is better now than it was
when we last saw each other.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
I know there's a lot of stuff that was left unspoken,
and I had a lot of questions as well, because
there was just so many secrets, right and so much unknown.
Speaker 4 (03:24):
Well, let's just try to start from the beginning.
Speaker 3 (03:27):
I know it's been so many years, but I think
now that we have more of an idea of the
situation that we're in and can kind of look back
and have a more clear picture. How did you first
get involved with Chakaina? And I guess meet everybody and
become a part of the church.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
So back in twenty nineteen, we had been living with
my in laws for about like five six years and
it was getting a bit crowded. So we had been
saving to my house at the time with just me
and my husband and my daughter she was around ten
eleven years old the time, and my husband. He let
(04:03):
his brother know, like, hey, do you know anybody that
we can reach out to that can help us find
a house. We had no idea what it was like
to buy a house or what the process was, so
he referred him to Matthew Shin.
Speaker 2 (04:17):
Matthew Shin is reportedly one of Robert's most devoted followers.
At the age of fifteen, Matthew came under Robert's guidance,
and those who observed their relationship described it as almost
a father's son bond. According to a profile on one
of their real estate websites, Matthew began his career in
real estate at just nineteen.
Speaker 1 (04:37):
We got in contact with him and we started the process,
but at that time I found out I was pregnant,
so we kind of put everything into a pause, so
we didn't get into any of the church stuff until
the following year once I gave birth. Fast forward to
twenty twenty, we finally bought our house. Did the whole
process with Matthew, Shin and Elisha, and it was August
(04:59):
twenty when we bought the house. October twenty twenty was
when David started being invited to the men's Bible studies.
Speaker 3 (05:10):
David is Marylynd's husband and he was the one who
was initially introduced into Chakina Church.
Speaker 1 (05:16):
And I had no idea they were going to start
meeting for Bible studies. It took him a while to
even tell me. I thought they became friends and they
were just hanging out just like, you know, hey, let's
go have dinner. And when I asked him, like, why
are you just hanging out you know, for so many hours,
my husband's like, oh, okay, well, their Bible studies they're
just like regular Bible studies. And I like to ask
(05:38):
a lot of questions. So I was like, okay, well,
I came from a Christian background, so why are these
Bible studies like four hours long? And that's when I
asked him, can you ask him if I can just
join one of these Bible studies? So I started going
to these Bible studies at the realty office in Orange
and I didn't see any red flags. Then it was
(06:00):
just like a regular you know. We would just read
the Bible, talk about our thoughts and I felt comfortable.
So I asked questions like so where's the church at,
like now that I like the Bible studies, like can
we just go visit the church? And when he said, uh,
pause there, like I'll get back to you, I was
curious and I asked him like, you know, why can't
we just come by and visit? And anytime you had
(06:22):
a question like that, it was kind of always, oh,
you know, we just moved. There was always like an excuse,
and in that moment, you didn't really see it as
a red fly. You're just like okay. So fast forward,
we got invited to one service on a Sunday. I
believe it was like the end of October, and my
husband's brother was already going there. He didn't even know
(06:43):
we were invited, so the initial shock in his face
when he saw we were there, it was I still
remember it very clearly. What was that process?
Speaker 4 (06:52):
Like?
Speaker 2 (06:52):
I think mentally and emotionally to have worked so hard
to purchase a home and then turn around and sell,
what was that like for you?
Speaker 1 (07:02):
Everything was just happening so quickly. You know why I
got pregnant after being a fertile We bought our house,
and we had this trust because other churches we had
gone to, like you know people usually that are within
the church. You know it's someone that you can trust.
So even though things were moving quickly, I felt like
I could trust everyone. You know, you're just filled with
so much emotion because you're just like I'm in this
(07:24):
journey that I'm trying to get closer to God, like
I need to do what I need to do. But
you're also trusting these people that you think they're looking
out for you, and you voice your opinion on certain things,
but they're not listening. You think they are, but they're not.
And there's so much unknown, Like I didn't know where
we were moving. I didn't get to choose what location
I didn't know what the house looked like. I didn't
(07:47):
know if it was going to have a backyard from
my kids.
Speaker 3 (07:49):
And that must have been a really big change to
have to like take your entire family. You had two
kids at the time, and I think they were in
school right, right, So I had to change, like almost
everything about your life from Anaheim moving into Tahunga. Right,
what else do you feel like changed after like becoming
a member of Chicina and moving into the house into Hunga.
Speaker 1 (08:13):
I did not know my life was about to change
the way it did. I did not see it coming.
Everyone that knows me, like, I go all out for
my kids. I love holidays, I love birthdays, I love
it all. And once it got closer to my daughter's birthday,
I would bring it up to my mentor like, hey,
you know, it's my daughter's birthdays coming up, Like can
(08:34):
I start, you know, inviting my family, Like can I
throw you know, a party? And I was just giving
like the run around, and I felt like I knew
what was coming, even though it wasn't stead at that time.
Once it came to that moment, it was like, yeah,
no party, no family, you know, I couldn't even buy
(08:54):
a cake of my choosing. I had to buy a
Costco cheesecake. Only of members were invited at that time.
Calli had to go back to Sacramento to get their
stuff to move all their stuff down here, So she
wasn't even there the day we did a little cake,
but she knew about it.
Speaker 3 (09:11):
Yeah, And that was like around when we had first joined.
I had no idea that that was something that you
were going through when we had first like met and
first were introduced to you and to everyone else in
the church, Like that's such a big like thing of
them to tell of you, not even ask of you,
just like no, you're not allowed to have a party
and invite your family to come and celebrate your new baby.
Speaker 1 (09:35):
They put things in your head like that, you're dying
to that. Just for a small period of time, we
went from like facetiming every day and talking every day
to I literally just blocked everyone on my phone, every
family member, every friend on my phone the following week,
And to me, that was literally the biggest sacrifice, at
least for me, That's what I was dying to because
(09:56):
I genuinely just loved my family. I love talking to them,
I love being a on them, so that for me
that was like me dying to that. They made me
feel like there was never enough that you could die.
There was always something more you had to be dying.
Speaker 2 (10:13):
Several people have stated that under the concept of dying
to yourself, members were encouraged to sever tize with their families,
suppress their personal desires, and rigidly adhere to the rules
of the church and their standards.
Speaker 3 (10:27):
And sometimes it would feel so silly, like, oh, you
like chocolate cake, Well you got to die of the
chocolate cake, right, because it's a passion of yours, not
the chocolate cake.
Speaker 1 (10:35):
Yes, do you remember Killia. But we would even like, wow,
I haven't had a pedicurean like a whole or I
need to go down my hair, you know, and it
was just like, oh, no, you don't need that. You're
not an influencer, you don't need that exactly to that.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
Yes, after the break, we'll hear more about Marylyn's journey
with Chakaina Church. This is forgive me for I have followed.
Speaker 3 (11:00):
Welcome back to forgive me for I have followed. Now
more from our conversation with Marylyn.
Speaker 2 (11:08):
Actually, I'm really intrigued by that because Khlei you mentioned
that a little bit in the last episode that we recorded.
Is like, so influencers got to get manny petties, they
get the glam and the other members are you just
meant to do it yourself and you know some people do.
Speaker 3 (11:22):
That that's fine, but yeah, and it really was like that,
and I think that was where that feeling of like
I'm less than kind of came, where it's like, well,
this is for their job, and you know, this is
a part of their calling, and that's why they need
to like they need the nice car and the haircut
to look good because they're influencers, Like we have to
put up that front so they can be good at
their job. But like someone you know, like me or
(11:43):
like Marylyn, it's like, well, you're not on camera all
the time, so it's don't worry about your looks, Like
that wasn't your calling, so you don't have to worry
about doing that, Like focus on what God has asked
you to do basically, and it's not getting your nails done.
Speaker 4 (11:57):
Apparently, because we talked a little.
Speaker 2 (11:59):
Bit about how some people they offered to get them
new cars and they offered to handle bills and things
like that. So some people got new cars and other
people didn't. Did you hand over your expenses? Did you
hand over your cell phone bill? And what was that
like for you?
Speaker 1 (12:20):
Everyone from what I know, was treated differently and everyone
was giving different instructions. They kept everyone separate, so nobody
knew anybody's business. Everything was hush hushed. Only your mentor
and you knew what was going on. As for me,
I felt like I was trying to get closer to God.
So the quicker I submitted, the more they had a
(12:41):
hold of me in my life. You know, right off
the pet they got a hold of my finances and
they were in my bank account.
Speaker 2 (12:48):
Like you're handing over your finances because they're going to
handle those expenses, like they're paying your bills for you,
or how is that pitched to you?
Speaker 1 (12:58):
They always just say everyone, you know, it's in a
different level in their spiritual path. Some of the members
haven't died enough. Some of the members have died to
so much, you know, the way they present it, just
like how much do you want to die to yourself
and to the things of this world to get closer
to God? So like what else can you give? So
(13:18):
I'm like Okay, well, I already cut off my family,
Like what's next like for me to get closer to God?
Because that was a whole purpose, right, So they're like, okay, well,
are you know your finances? Like you know that's the
big one. Are you ready to submit? It got really
overwhelming really fast. I would get panic attacks and I
would just cry at the end of every day and
(13:39):
just tell my husband like I don't know, like how
much longer I can do this, Like you know, it's
supposed to be like this loving place and yeah, you know,
you guys are all there for God, but you're just
like alone, like you can't really talk to each other
about what's really going on. You're only allowed to talk
to your mentor. And I don't know what the relationship
with each mentor how they were with everyone else, but
(13:59):
I I just can speak for myself and what it
was with my mentor, and it was just really cut throat,
like she would just tell me like, don't cry about it,
like this is how it's going to be, you know.
Like I just felt like I how to suck it
up and just go with whatever instruction was given to me,
and whether I liked it or not, that's just the
way it was going to be, and that's it.
Speaker 3 (14:21):
Did you both have the same mentor, Yes, we were
both mentored by Shirley. Shirley served as a mentor under
Sha kinda church. As previously mentioned, a mentor is expected
to support you while you're a part of the church,
providing you guidance on your spiritual journey. However, as we
will soon learn from Maryland, surely was far from that.
(14:41):
Even like Marylyn, hearing you talk about it, it's so
like crazy hearing like the stark differences between like how
they treat each person, and like you mentioned, like I
don't not sure how they were treating everybody else or
what their experiences were. But like even for mine to
hear you talk about like how you had said how
I didn't even know that they had control over like
your finances, because I think I remember you telling me
(15:03):
later on, like as you guys were leaving, that's when
I had found out about like how deep things went
between like you and uh Churley and Chicaina Church. This
is where I'm really seeing the differences. It's like at
that time, like Trilly and I would sit down and
talk about like our finances they didn't have access to
the accounts, but it was like, oh, you I know
how to like get your credit better. These are the
(15:24):
things that you could do, and these are the steps
you could take. Let's sit down and like write out
a budget. And so that's kind of like where we
were in the process, Like they didn't have our information yet,
they weren't connected to our accounts yet. But after you know,
hearing the stories like Maryland telling now like they had
full control and they you know, I think, correct me
if I'm wrong, but I feel like when the day
(15:44):
that you had left, I remember you telling me that
they had like bought furniture out of your account, right right,
And I think I remember hearing that at the time
and going like, whoa, they just like spent that much
money out of your account just because they had access
to it.
Speaker 4 (15:57):
I had said. One of the first red flags for
me was when like Marilyn and.
Speaker 3 (16:00):
David left and I was like, oh, okay, and then
I had heard their reasonings why.
Speaker 4 (16:05):
And I was like that makes complete sense.
Speaker 3 (16:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:07):
I would just see my bank account and it was
just wiring out, wiring you know, why are here, And
I mean I would see it, but they would tell
you like if you ask questions or you're concerned that
you're not trusting in God. So I tried to just
focus on, you know me, just okay, work, you know,
take care of my kids, go to church. Very quickly,
I learned just to stop asking questions because they would
(16:27):
make me an example. And I don't know if you
remember Cleah one time, it was kind of a little
bit before I left, and I had event so bad
and it was when they were sending us in pairs
to go get the COVID stuff. And my partner that
they had sent me with, she was a girl. So
I'm like, hey, girls, talk like let me I need
a vent. And I was just like, you know, like
(16:49):
I'm just having a tough weeak. Like I just feel
like nothing I do is good enough and that's church,
Like nothing I give up is good enough. I'm always
just giving and giving, but nothing's enough. I feel like
I'm losing every bit of myself and it just doesn't
feel right. I feel drained. I feel like I have
no energy, I have nothing more to give, like I'm
just done. And I was like crying. And this member
(17:13):
I'm not going to say her name because she's still
part of the church. But she was just quietly like
listening to me, and I thought she understood as a person,
you know, and I thought she would just keep it
between us, and of course not. She had been there
longer than me, so you know the rules. And once
you know the rules, it's not your fault, like you
just follow them. And I always made an example in
(17:35):
the woman's feet after that, you know, they said like,
this is why you don't talk to each other, this
is why you're you know, you can put someone else
spiritual path in danger. You know, thank you this person
for letting me know that Marilyn told you this. I
didn't know, and I'm her mentor. And I was like,
I literally almost want to throw up when she said
that in front of everybody. And I was like, oh,
(17:55):
here we go. Another schoolding. And all you can say
when they made an example, whether it was in service
or a Bible city, like you just said, praise the Lord. Hum. Okay,
that's on me. I guess like I am messed up again.
Speaker 3 (18:10):
Yeah, like they made you feel like, oh, you should
feel grateful for the correction, right. That was definitely one
of the tactics that they would use a lot like, oh, like,
since you're being corrected, that means like we care about
you because we want you to do better. So that
was like, I think one of the attitudes that they
had like pressed into the group.
Speaker 2 (18:27):
Which is a little bit what Kevin talked about in
the documentary. When like you're not being rebuked, You're like, well,
why aren't you talking about me? And like it's really
confusing that that rebuking process can feel almost like why
am I not being talked about?
Speaker 1 (18:40):
Why am I not being highlighted?
Speaker 2 (18:42):
But you were having that conversation and you were inventing
in the car to this person, thinking that it was
a safe space and that you could trust that person.
How did they get back to the mentors? And can
you talk a little bit about both of your experience
with kind of reporting on each other.
Speaker 1 (18:59):
The majority of the people, if they had the same mentor,
they usually had like the same routine. Like for me,
I had to email my mentor everything I did the
whole day, what I talked about, what I ate, and
I was already like so submitted in my eyes, you know.
And we had other scenarios, like with me and Kalia,
since we lived together and we're both you know, social butterflies.
(19:22):
My room was upstairs, so I would come down for
coffee or in the morning really quickly to get a snack.
I'd say something along the lines like yes, like it
was a good day, like priest Lord, like you know
I ate this. I you know, I have words on
my break I read a few verses. I bumped into
Khalia in the morning. You know, we were kind of
going over whatever I said. You know, we laughed a
little bit, and very quickly, you know, I was told,
(19:46):
you need to cut the chit chatter. So I would
just try to avoid, you know, I'd go quickly get
my coffee and good morning, bye, and I'd just go
up and I would just smile or just try not
to say much because I didn't want to get in
trouble again.
Speaker 3 (19:58):
Right, And you know it, it was presented to me
a little differently, like a little more like, oh, like
let's just be careful and not like, hey, cut that out. Yeah,
it was just like let's just be careful because you know,
you don't want to like cause each other to like
falter on your walk, or you don't want to like
say something that could like basically trigger the other person.
Speaker 4 (20:16):
Marilyn.
Speaker 3 (20:17):
You worked from home at that time, so it was like, Oh,
Marilyn probably has to go back and go to her
work really quick, so she can't talk right now, you
know what I mean. I think that's kind of how
I was rationalizing it for myself and then being like, oh, and.
Speaker 4 (20:28):
I don't want to distract her from like whatever she's
supposed to be doing.
Speaker 1 (20:31):
Yeah, not wanting to be a distraction.
Speaker 2 (20:33):
You know, Marilyn, you mentioned earlier that some of what
was being asked of you you thought was just temporary,
like cutting off your family to get closer to God. Right,
Is that just kind of the energy that you both
felt throughout that this was all temporary sacrifices so you
can get closer to God, thinking that all of those
things were going to come back.
Speaker 1 (20:54):
When they gave us the news that we were getting
roommates the same day, within two hours, I was because
don't get me wrong, it's not like I never lived
with roommates. It's just we had no idea we were
ever getting roommates, and it wasn't presented to us like, oh,
you know, is it okay if we put some people
in the house that you know, you just paid fifteen
(21:15):
K to move into, Like is it fine with you?
Like no, it was never how do you feel about this?
Like are they even comfortable with you? Like we have
little kids? Like is it gonna annoy them? Just stuff
like that was going through my head, you know, like right,
And I also thought it was temporary, like they presented
like as someone that's serving God, like you need to
(21:36):
serve and help others in need. Right, So whatever thoughts
were going through my head or what I quickly put
them aside. I'm like, Okay, my first priority is I'm here,
you know, trying to get closer to God. I'm going
to serve. So if there's any way I can help others,
I'm going to do it. So no questions asked. I'm like, Okay,
it wasn't ideal, it wasn't what I expected, but it's
happening and welcome, you know.
Speaker 3 (21:57):
Right, And it really very much was not what you
signed up for. You had just sold your house and
moved and that was the day that we met, when
Kevin and I had like moved into the house, and
so I'd imagine, I know, like you have kids, you
have like a whole family there, Like that was extremely invasive,
and you know, on our end, like we were told
that there was a family living there, but like that
(22:18):
they already knew that they were going to have people
move and they just weren't sure who, right.
Speaker 2 (22:24):
So, Marilyn, can you walk us through a little bit
of what that moment was for you and those moments
for you of wanting to leave.
Speaker 1 (22:32):
You know, I'm over here working on a regular, full
time desk job. You know, I'm tired as it is.
I have a kid in school. I have a little
kid that's like not sleeping through the night, and that's
just my personal life. So on top of that, I
have to attend these Bible studies that are like three
hours long, you know, these services on Wednesdays and Sundays
that are four hours sometimes depending how long they want
(22:54):
to talk, go longer. So it's just a lot. It
was starting to just wear me out little by life
and not only just being you know, rebused and corrected.
That was also like on my mental health. That was
a lot because nothing I did was ever good enough.
I was always getting rebused left or right. But you know,
I was just being told constantly, like die to yourself,
(23:15):
die to yourself, like you know, it doesn't matter. You'retired.
Die to that, like, die to whatever it is that
you're thinking, Like, die to your thoughts, just even simple
things like wanting to take my kids to the park
and just not think about anything. You're just like, I
don't know, I don't know what the truth is anymore
because you're just so bubbled in that place. You're only
surrounded by them, what they're telling you. You can't be
(23:38):
on social media, at least for us. You're not communicating
with anybody outside. So you're literally just eating up everything
they're telling you constantly.
Speaker 2 (23:45):
So you found out that you were pregnant, and how
did your relationship change with them?
Speaker 1 (23:50):
Obviously it was unexpected. I had moved locations, so it
took forever to finally get an appointment to go get
a birth control implant. That's my instruction was, and that's
what I was there for. You know. Obviously they took
my urine and they said, oh, we can't give it
to you because you're pregnant. And just as they're telling me,
I'm shocked, I'm hyperventilating, And the first thing I have
(24:13):
to do is, obviously I texted my husband and I
called my mentor because she, you know, the reason I
was there. I can no longer proceed, so they're like
asking all these weird questions. And then my mentor I
felt like she was kind of giving me like kind
of like don't talk to me, like I'm not happy
with you right now. That I just felt broken. I
(24:36):
went home after the Bible study. I cried and I
told my husband, I don't feel safe here and I
feel horrible that I'm even pregnant, like and I shouldn't
be feeling like this, and I broke down. I told
him I struggled with the fertility for six years. I
finally got pregnant at thirty years old again after my
first child, and I felt that this pregnancy for me,
(25:00):
it was a blessing that God was, you know, doing
big things for me. And for them to treat me like,
oh no, like this was wrong. Like I even had
a nightmare. I had a nightmare that they were gonna
take my baby away. Whether it was true or not,
I don't know, but that was my nightmare and I
felt it was valid. It was just my emotions, my anxiety,
and that was it for me. I started like going
(25:21):
deep into how am I going to get out of
here because they have control. After that, it was just
for me. It was more like how am I gonna leave?
What am I going to leave behind?
Speaker 2 (25:31):
Like?
Speaker 1 (25:31):
How do I get out of here?
Speaker 2 (25:35):
When we return, Marilyn will guide us through her journey
of escaping. This is forgive me for I have followed.
Speaker 3 (25:46):
Welcome back to forgive me for I have followed. Here's
the conclusion of our conversation with Marilyn.
Speaker 1 (25:52):
I felt like, in a way, they wanted me to
die to my blood family, not just my family outside,
like my actual family, like I hardly say my husband.
It was only like at nighttime my kids that they
were being sent to other members' houses, like for me
to serve and be in other places. And that's just
it for me. And honestly that Bible said. I wanted
(26:12):
to just get home and wait for Kleian and hug
her and cry and tell her like I'm going to leave,
but I want you to leave with me, and I
didn't have the balls to do it. I regret it
because I felt maybe if I would have said something sooner,
I could have, you know, prevented other people from being hurt,
(26:33):
and maybe people still in there could have opened their eyes,
and they wouldn't be there right now, so I was
left with a lot of regret.
Speaker 3 (26:42):
No, it's really not your fault because it was such
a confusing time for all of us. And when you
finally told me that you were pregnant when we were there,
I was so excited for you, so like to hear
how they treated you regarding your pregnancy, and like it
was hard to hear then and it's still hard to
hear now, and like, I am really happy that you
were able to see it for what it was and
(27:02):
leave at the time that you did, And I think
I want to know, like how was that process like
for you leaving?
Speaker 1 (27:08):
I was so motivate to get out of there. I
texted my husband. He was at the church at the time,
he was probably going to get home late, and I said,
I'm going to pack everything I physically can and bags
and whatever. I'm going to leave it down stairs for you.
All you have to do is carry down the bed,
carry down our washroom dryer, because that was from our
house that we had purchased. And I'm just going to
(27:29):
take whatever I brought from my previous house and I'll
deal with the rest later. I took just my children's
belonging with my belongings, and I left, and I know
Khalia and Kevin, I think meanwhile, I was packing or something.
They came briefly and they didn't question it. They just
saw our stuff, and you know, it was kind of
like a sad goodbye, because yeah, there was just so
(27:50):
much I wanted to tell her, and I couldn't. I
was just in a rush to pack and just get
out of there. And I was always curious what they
said to the church once we left, because we lived
soad like it was literally like I think it took
us like a day and a half.
Speaker 2 (28:03):
What did they say to you, Khalia when they left.
Speaker 3 (28:06):
I'm curious after you guys had packed up and left,
they were trying to like make up some crazy story
like they're mad at you guys, like they don't want.
Speaker 4 (28:13):
To be here.
Speaker 3 (28:14):
They're really upset at you guys. That's why you shouldn't
talk to them. And then also like wow, right, no exactly,
and then oh, they're like, oh, they probably had like
a bunch of like random people in the house to
like whatever, and all of your stuff is here, and
we were like.
Speaker 4 (28:27):
Right, oh, that's funny, seriously.
Speaker 3 (28:31):
And Kevin and I looked at them and we were like,
that's totally fine if they had family come and help.
That's what family does when you move place to place.
How else were they going to get all of their
stuff out of here? Like to us, we were like, okay, and.
Speaker 1 (28:42):
That was a two person move and my husband and
let me tell you, it was not easy. We literally
left and drove off at night, but we still had
to come back the next day to recover a few
things and leave a few things. And it wasn't like
we cut off complete communication after that, you know, a
few months past and then you know, our family was
totally confused, like we hadn't talked to at least me
(29:05):
and my family. I hadn't talked to them in like
seven months. I cut them off cold turkey. So when
we came back, they didn't even know how to talk
to us. It was like seeing aliens for the first time.
The only people we actually had communication at first was
my husband's mother. She welcomed us and we all crammed
in her room and when we left, she gave us
(29:26):
permission to stay there until we found somewhere to go.
And it's a big change when you're going from literally
complete dependency and just following orders and instructions. Your mindset
is just like, Okay, what do I do next? Can
I do this? That? To finally getting your freedom back
and having to think for yourself, it's a complete change.
And my husband struggled a little bit more than I did. Spiritually.
(29:48):
He couldn't talk about it, he couldn't talk about the church,
he didn't want to talk to me about it.
Speaker 4 (29:51):
He was just mute.
Speaker 1 (29:52):
And he still had that kind of mentality to die
to yourself. So anything I wanted to do, like now
that we were free, hey, let's go did this, Let's
take the kids here. I want to do I want
to buy this, his response was always like, die to yourself,
Die to yourself.
Speaker 4 (30:05):
And I felt like.
Speaker 1 (30:06):
Even though we left physically, he was still there spiritually,
and there was a time that we were almost getting
stuck back in. He was like emailing Matthew, his mentor
at the time, and I emailed truly, and I was
just like, I don't know if we did the right thing.
Like that's kind of how when you finally leave, it's
(30:28):
not so easy, Like you don't just because you leave
doesn't mean that you feel free. Like we still felt
like we.
Speaker 4 (30:34):
Had to go back.
Speaker 1 (30:35):
Like there was a time we almost went back, and
I think I think you remember it was around the
time you were leaving, around the process of leaving. I
didn't know that till after, but it was like fourth
of July. I already had my baby and we went
over there and we were literally so close to rejoining
because we thought maybe everything they told us was true,
(30:56):
and we were so lost. We were scared we were
being cursed and that's why, you know, things were not
going so well, and we were slowly coming back and
thank god we didn't because I was like, no, like
we left for a reason, I'm going to stick to that.
And if we're cursed, if things happened to us, because
(31:16):
this was the tutrition, and so be it. But we
finally got back on our feet and we started thinking
for ourselves again, and like things started moving along and
we finally like woke up and we started seeing things
for what they were, all the red flags. Everything just
came out of nowhere like boom. But it took a while.
It was a process.
Speaker 3 (31:35):
And I remember that fourth of July because that was
the day after we decided to leave.
Speaker 4 (31:40):
Oh wow, oh that was like the very next day.
A little bit later.
Speaker 3 (31:43):
That's when Jessica and I got together and started talking
and getting involved with the documentary.
Speaker 4 (31:49):
And I really want to know, like, what.
Speaker 3 (31:51):
Was it like for you after the documentary came out,
just like your reaction to it.
Speaker 1 (31:58):
I didn't want to watch it at first. I wasn't ready.
My husband watched the first and I was on like
my little corner office, but I could hear the documentary
plane and anytime they played an audio of just like
a not in my stomach. But when I saw it all,
like it kind of brought peace to me to know that,
you know, you guys were able to share your story
(32:19):
and like you guys understood in a sense what we
went through, why we left, you know, all the red flags.
It wasn't in my head, no, So it was super
amazing to watch and just to hear you guys and
to know that we weren't alone.
Speaker 3 (32:35):
Thank you so much for sitting and having this conversation
with us. And I know the conversation between us was
so overdue that I'm glad to be able to do
it in this way where we could like potentially help
other people that have been involved and it gave me
a lot of like closure and good reminder as to
like why I did the documentary in the first place. Yes,
this was a shared experience between all of us, like
(32:58):
we all have the story because this is what was
really going on, Like it's definitely not in your head,
and like I'm hoping that other people will hear that
and know that too, whether it be this situation or
a different situation. But no, I really want to thank
you for your vulnerability to come on and talk with
us about it, and you know, hopefully we can make
you know some more waves to let more people hear
(33:20):
and help them not feel so alone as well.
Speaker 4 (33:23):
Now, thank you.
Speaker 1 (33:24):
It's a scary thing to voice and say your story
and what you went through, So thank you for being
one of the brave ones.
Speaker 3 (33:41):
Marylyn's story of leaving the church and embarking on a
new beginning is deeply inspiring. We wish her the very
best on her journey toward dealing.
Speaker 2 (33:48):
Thank you for tuning into this episode of Forgive Me
For I Have Followed. We are extremely thankful to Marilyn
for sharing her experience with us. We'll be back next.
Speaker 3 (33:56):
Week Forgive Me For I Have Followed is a production
from WVCA, Dirty Robert and iHeartMedia's Michael Tore podcast network,
hosted by me Khalia Gray and me Jess Talsovetto Forgive
Me for I Have Followed is produced by Aaron Berlson
and Sophie Spencer zabos.
Speaker 2 (34:11):
Our executive producers are Khalia Gray, myself, Walmer Balderama, Leo
Klam and Aaron Burlison at wv Sound.
Speaker 3 (34:18):
This episode was edited by Sean Tracy and features original
music by Madison Davenport and Halo Boy. For more podcasts
from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever
you listen to your favorite shows. See you next week,
See you next week,
You just can't even think for yourself sometimes anymore. You're
just like, Okay, what do I do now? Like can
I do this? Can I eat this? Can I buy this?
Finally finding out I was pregnant and how they treated me,
that was just like the last straw.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
I was like, oh, no, welcome back to forgive me
for I have followed. I'm Jessica Ossabetto, executive producer of
the hit Netflix series Dancing for the Devil the seven
M TikTok Cult. The documentary series explored the stories of
former members of seven M Films and the La based
(00:39):
Chakaina Church on their healing journeys. Pastor Robert Schin founded
Chakaina Church in La over two decades ago before establishing
seven M Films. He is also named in a civil
lawsuit alleging abuse and cult like behavior.
Speaker 3 (00:52):
And I'm Kalia Gray, former member of seven M Films
and Chakina Church. This podcast picks up where the series
left off and we'll examine the personal stories of those
affected by Robert Chicina and seven M Films. On today's episode,
we dive deep with Marilyn, a former member of Shakaina Church.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
Marilyn once believed that dedicating her life to God through
Chicaina and Pastor Robert Schen was the best choice for
her and her growing family. However, she soon discovered.
Speaker 4 (01:18):
That wasn't the case.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
Throughout our conversation with Marilyn, we explored the theme of
dying to yourself and the extreme practices promoted by the
church's Chakaina mentorship program. Marilyn will share her reasons for
joining the church and the intense motivation that led her
to not only uproot her family, but also to sell
their newly purchased home.
Speaker 3 (01:38):
Own By the way, Marilyn and I were also roommates.
Her husband and daughter lived with my husband, Kevin and I.
We'll talk more about that a little bit later, but
for now, Marilyn is going to recount the pivotal events
that promoted her to leave Shakina reclaim her life in detail,
the challenging process of her departure, and now our conversation
with Marilyn.
Speaker 2 (02:06):
I had the absolute pleasure of speaking with Marilyn while
we were developing the documentary. Unfortunately, we weren't able to
include her story due to time, but I was so
thankful for her time and it was really insightful, and
I think given the relationship with you, Kahalia, and even
what we had heard in episode one about how you
(02:27):
all lived together, it made the most sense that she
would be the first person that we would try to
get for this podcast. So, Marilyn, thank you so much
for joining us and chatting with us today.
Speaker 1 (02:38):
Well, definitely thank you guys for having me and letting
me be a part of this.
Speaker 3 (02:43):
Yeah, and I just want to say I do really
appreciate you being here because, like Marilyn and I haven't
really had a full sit down to talk about our
experiences with Chicaina. I know we spoke briefly when I
first left, but it's been some time since, and I
just feel like there's so much more to say and
like so much more to like dig into about like
(03:03):
our experiences there and we lived together. There really was
so much there's I have so much I want to ask,
and I hope everything is better now than it was
when we last saw each other.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
I know there's a lot of stuff that was left unspoken,
and I had a lot of questions as well, because
there was just so many secrets, right and so much unknown.
Speaker 4 (03:24):
Well, let's just try to start from the beginning.
Speaker 3 (03:27):
I know it's been so many years, but I think
now that we have more of an idea of the
situation that we're in and can kind of look back
and have a more clear picture. How did you first
get involved with Chakaina? And I guess meet everybody and
become a part of the church.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
So back in twenty nineteen, we had been living with
my in laws for about like five six years and
it was getting a bit crowded. So we had been
saving to my house at the time with just me
and my husband and my daughter she was around ten
eleven years old the time, and my husband. He let
(04:03):
his brother know, like, hey, do you know anybody that
we can reach out to that can help us find
a house. We had no idea what it was like
to buy a house or what the process was, so
he referred him to Matthew Shin.
Speaker 2 (04:17):
Matthew Shin is reportedly one of Robert's most devoted followers.
At the age of fifteen, Matthew came under Robert's guidance,
and those who observed their relationship described it as almost
a father's son bond. According to a profile on one
of their real estate websites, Matthew began his career in
real estate at just nineteen.
Speaker 1 (04:37):
We got in contact with him and we started the process,
but at that time I found out I was pregnant,
so we kind of put everything into a pause, so
we didn't get into any of the church stuff until
the following year once I gave birth. Fast forward to
twenty twenty, we finally bought our house. Did the whole
process with Matthew, Shin and Elisha, and it was August
(04:59):
twenty when we bought the house. October twenty twenty was
when David started being invited to the men's Bible studies.
Speaker 3 (05:10):
David is Marylynd's husband and he was the one who
was initially introduced into Chakina Church.
Speaker 1 (05:16):
And I had no idea they were going to start
meeting for Bible studies. It took him a while to
even tell me. I thought they became friends and they
were just hanging out just like, you know, hey, let's
go have dinner. And when I asked him, like, why
are you just hanging out you know, for so many hours,
my husband's like, oh, okay, well, their Bible studies they're
just like regular Bible studies. And I like to ask
(05:38):
a lot of questions. So I was like, okay, well,
I came from a Christian background, so why are these
Bible studies like four hours long? And that's when I
asked him, can you ask him if I can just
join one of these Bible studies? So I started going
to these Bible studies at the realty office in Orange
and I didn't see any red flags. Then it was
(06:00):
just like a regular you know. We would just read
the Bible, talk about our thoughts and I felt comfortable.
So I asked questions like so where's the church at,
like now that I like the Bible studies, like can
we just go visit the church? And when he said, uh,
pause there, like I'll get back to you, I was
curious and I asked him like, you know, why can't
we just come by and visit? And anytime you had
(06:22):
a question like that, it was kind of always, oh,
you know, we just moved. There was always like an excuse,
and in that moment, you didn't really see it as
a red fly. You're just like okay. So fast forward,
we got invited to one service on a Sunday. I
believe it was like the end of October, and my
husband's brother was already going there. He didn't even know
(06:43):
we were invited, so the initial shock in his face
when he saw we were there, it was I still
remember it very clearly. What was that process?
Speaker 4 (06:52):
Like?
Speaker 2 (06:52):
I think mentally and emotionally to have worked so hard
to purchase a home and then turn around and sell,
what was that like for you?
Speaker 1 (07:02):
Everything was just happening so quickly. You know why I
got pregnant after being a fertile We bought our house,
and we had this trust because other churches we had
gone to, like you know people usually that are within
the church. You know it's someone that you can trust.
So even though things were moving quickly, I felt like
I could trust everyone. You know, you're just filled with
so much emotion because you're just like I'm in this
(07:24):
journey that I'm trying to get closer to God, like
I need to do what I need to do. But
you're also trusting these people that you think they're looking
out for you, and you voice your opinion on certain things,
but they're not listening. You think they are, but they're not.
And there's so much unknown, Like I didn't know where
we were moving. I didn't get to choose what location
I didn't know what the house looked like. I didn't
(07:47):
know if it was going to have a backyard from
my kids.
Speaker 3 (07:49):
And that must have been a really big change to
have to like take your entire family. You had two
kids at the time, and I think they were in
school right, right, So I had to change, like almost
everything about your life from Anaheim moving into Tahunga. Right,
what else do you feel like changed after like becoming
a member of Chicina and moving into the house into Hunga.
Speaker 1 (08:13):
I did not know my life was about to change
the way it did. I did not see it coming.
Everyone that knows me, like, I go all out for
my kids. I love holidays, I love birthdays, I love
it all. And once it got closer to my daughter's birthday,
I would bring it up to my mentor like, hey,
you know, it's my daughter's birthdays coming up, Like can
(08:34):
I start, you know, inviting my family, Like can I
throw you know, a party? And I was just giving
like the run around, and I felt like I knew
what was coming, even though it wasn't stead at that time.
Once it came to that moment, it was like, yeah,
no party, no family, you know, I couldn't even buy
(08:54):
a cake of my choosing. I had to buy a
Costco cheesecake. Only of members were invited at that time.
Calli had to go back to Sacramento to get their
stuff to move all their stuff down here, So she
wasn't even there the day we did a little cake,
but she knew about it.
Speaker 3 (09:11):
Yeah, And that was like around when we had first joined.
I had no idea that that was something that you
were going through when we had first like met and
first were introduced to you and to everyone else in
the church, Like that's such a big like thing of
them to tell of you, not even ask of you,
just like no, you're not allowed to have a party
and invite your family to come and celebrate your new baby.
Speaker 1 (09:35):
They put things in your head like that, you're dying
to that. Just for a small period of time, we
went from like facetiming every day and talking every day
to I literally just blocked everyone on my phone, every
family member, every friend on my phone the following week,
And to me, that was literally the biggest sacrifice, at
least for me, That's what I was dying to because
(09:56):
I genuinely just loved my family. I love talking to them,
I love being a on them, so that for me
that was like me dying to that. They made me
feel like there was never enough that you could die.
There was always something more you had to be dying.
Speaker 2 (10:13):
Several people have stated that under the concept of dying
to yourself, members were encouraged to sever tize with their families,
suppress their personal desires, and rigidly adhere to the rules
of the church and their standards.
Speaker 3 (10:27):
And sometimes it would feel so silly, like, oh, you
like chocolate cake, Well you got to die of the
chocolate cake, right, because it's a passion of yours, not
the chocolate cake.
Speaker 1 (10:35):
Yes, do you remember Killia. But we would even like, wow,
I haven't had a pedicurean like a whole or I
need to go down my hair, you know, and it
was just like, oh, no, you don't need that. You're
not an influencer, you don't need that exactly to that.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
Yes, after the break, we'll hear more about Marylyn's journey
with Chakaina Church. This is forgive me for I have followed.
Speaker 3 (11:00):
Welcome back to forgive me for I have followed. Now
more from our conversation with Marylyn.
Speaker 2 (11:08):
Actually, I'm really intrigued by that because Khlei you mentioned
that a little bit in the last episode that we recorded.
Is like, so influencers got to get manny petties, they
get the glam and the other members are you just
meant to do it yourself and you know some people do.
Speaker 3 (11:22):
That that's fine, but yeah, and it really was like that,
and I think that was where that feeling of like
I'm less than kind of came, where it's like, well,
this is for their job, and you know, this is
a part of their calling, and that's why they need
to like they need the nice car and the haircut
to look good because they're influencers, Like we have to
put up that front so they can be good at
their job. But like someone you know, like me or
(11:43):
like Marylyn, it's like, well, you're not on camera all
the time, so it's don't worry about your looks, Like
that wasn't your calling, so you don't have to worry
about doing that, Like focus on what God has asked
you to do basically, and it's not getting your nails done.
Speaker 4 (11:57):
Apparently, because we talked a little.
Speaker 2 (11:59):
Bit about how some people they offered to get them
new cars and they offered to handle bills and things
like that. So some people got new cars and other
people didn't. Did you hand over your expenses? Did you
hand over your cell phone bill? And what was that
like for you?
Speaker 1 (12:20):
Everyone from what I know, was treated differently and everyone
was giving different instructions. They kept everyone separate, so nobody
knew anybody's business. Everything was hush hushed. Only your mentor
and you knew what was going on. As for me,
I felt like I was trying to get closer to God.
So the quicker I submitted, the more they had a
(12:41):
hold of me in my life. You know, right off
the pet they got a hold of my finances and
they were in my bank account.
Speaker 2 (12:48):
Like you're handing over your finances because they're going to
handle those expenses, like they're paying your bills for you,
or how is that pitched to you?
Speaker 1 (12:58):
They always just say everyone, you know, it's in a
different level in their spiritual path. Some of the members
haven't died enough. Some of the members have died to
so much, you know, the way they present it, just
like how much do you want to die to yourself
and to the things of this world to get closer
to God? So like what else can you give? So
(13:18):
I'm like Okay, well, I already cut off my family,
Like what's next like for me to get closer to God?
Because that was a whole purpose, right, So they're like, okay, well,
are you know your finances? Like you know that's the
big one. Are you ready to submit? It got really
overwhelming really fast. I would get panic attacks and I
would just cry at the end of every day and
(13:39):
just tell my husband like I don't know, like how
much longer I can do this, Like you know, it's
supposed to be like this loving place and yeah, you know,
you guys are all there for God, but you're just
like alone, like you can't really talk to each other
about what's really going on. You're only allowed to talk
to your mentor. And I don't know what the relationship
with each mentor how they were with everyone else, but
(13:59):
I I just can speak for myself and what it
was with my mentor, and it was just really cut throat,
like she would just tell me like, don't cry about it,
like this is how it's going to be, you know.
Like I just felt like I how to suck it
up and just go with whatever instruction was given to me,
and whether I liked it or not, that's just the
way it was going to be, and that's it.
Speaker 3 (14:21):
Did you both have the same mentor, Yes, we were
both mentored by Shirley. Shirley served as a mentor under
Sha kinda church. As previously mentioned, a mentor is expected
to support you while you're a part of the church,
providing you guidance on your spiritual journey. However, as we
will soon learn from Maryland, surely was far from that.
(14:41):
Even like Marylyn, hearing you talk about it, it's so
like crazy hearing like the stark differences between like how
they treat each person, and like you mentioned, like I
don't not sure how they were treating everybody else or
what their experiences were. But like even for mine to
hear you talk about like how you had said how
I didn't even know that they had control over like
your finances, because I think I remember you telling me
(15:03):
later on, like as you guys were leaving, that's when
I had found out about like how deep things went
between like you and uh Churley and Chicaina Church. This
is where I'm really seeing the differences. It's like at
that time, like Trilly and I would sit down and
talk about like our finances they didn't have access to
the accounts, but it was like, oh, you I know
how to like get your credit better. These are the
(15:24):
things that you could do, and these are the steps
you could take. Let's sit down and like write out
a budget. And so that's kind of like where we
were in the process, Like they didn't have our information yet,
they weren't connected to our accounts yet. But after you know,
hearing the stories like Maryland telling now like they had
full control and they you know, I think, correct me
if I'm wrong, but I feel like when the day
(15:44):
that you had left, I remember you telling me that
they had like bought furniture out of your account, right right,
And I think I remember hearing that at the time
and going like, whoa, they just like spent that much
money out of your account just because they had access
to it.
Speaker 4 (15:57):
I had said. One of the first red flags for
me was when like Marilyn and.
Speaker 3 (16:00):
David left and I was like, oh, okay, and then
I had heard their reasonings why.
Speaker 4 (16:05):
And I was like that makes complete sense.
Speaker 3 (16:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:07):
I would just see my bank account and it was
just wiring out, wiring you know, why are here, And
I mean I would see it, but they would tell
you like if you ask questions or you're concerned that
you're not trusting in God. So I tried to just
focus on, you know me, just okay, work, you know,
take care of my kids, go to church. Very quickly,
I learned just to stop asking questions because they would
(16:27):
make me an example. And I don't know if you
remember Cleah one time, it was kind of a little
bit before I left, and I had event so bad
and it was when they were sending us in pairs
to go get the COVID stuff. And my partner that
they had sent me with, she was a girl. So
I'm like, hey, girls, talk like let me I need
a vent. And I was just like, you know, like
(16:49):
I'm just having a tough weeak. Like I just feel
like nothing I do is good enough and that's church,
Like nothing I give up is good enough. I'm always
just giving and giving, but nothing's enough. I feel like
I'm losing every bit of myself and it just doesn't
feel right. I feel drained. I feel like I have
no energy, I have nothing more to give, like I'm
just done. And I was like crying. And this member
(17:13):
I'm not going to say her name because she's still
part of the church. But she was just quietly like
listening to me, and I thought she understood as a person,
you know, and I thought she would just keep it
between us, and of course not. She had been there
longer than me, so you know the rules. And once
you know the rules, it's not your fault, like you
just follow them. And I always made an example in
(17:35):
the woman's feet after that, you know, they said like,
this is why you don't talk to each other, this
is why you're you know, you can put someone else
spiritual path in danger. You know, thank you this person
for letting me know that Marilyn told you this. I
didn't know, and I'm her mentor. And I was like,
I literally almost want to throw up when she said
that in front of everybody. And I was like, oh,
(17:55):
here we go. Another schoolding. And all you can say
when they made an example, whether it was in service
or a Bible city, like you just said, praise the Lord. Hum. Okay,
that's on me. I guess like I am messed up again.
Speaker 3 (18:10):
Yeah, like they made you feel like, oh, you should
feel grateful for the correction, right. That was definitely one
of the tactics that they would use a lot like, oh, like,
since you're being corrected, that means like we care about
you because we want you to do better. So that
was like, I think one of the attitudes that they
had like pressed into the group.
Speaker 2 (18:27):
Which is a little bit what Kevin talked about in
the documentary. When like you're not being rebuked, You're like, well,
why aren't you talking about me? And like it's really
confusing that that rebuking process can feel almost like why
am I not being talked about?
Speaker 1 (18:40):
Why am I not being highlighted?
Speaker 2 (18:42):
But you were having that conversation and you were inventing
in the car to this person, thinking that it was
a safe space and that you could trust that person.
How did they get back to the mentors? And can
you talk a little bit about both of your experience
with kind of reporting on each other.
Speaker 1 (18:59):
The majority of the people, if they had the same mentor,
they usually had like the same routine. Like for me,
I had to email my mentor everything I did the
whole day, what I talked about, what I ate, and
I was already like so submitted in my eyes, you know.
And we had other scenarios, like with me and Kalia,
since we lived together and we're both you know, social butterflies.
(19:22):
My room was upstairs, so I would come down for
coffee or in the morning really quickly to get a snack.
I'd say something along the lines like yes, like it
was a good day, like priest Lord, like you know
I ate this. I you know, I have words on
my break I read a few verses. I bumped into
Khalia in the morning. You know, we were kind of
going over whatever I said. You know, we laughed a
little bit, and very quickly, you know, I was told,
(19:46):
you need to cut the chit chatter. So I would
just try to avoid, you know, I'd go quickly get
my coffee and good morning, bye, and I'd just go
up and I would just smile or just try not
to say much because I didn't want to get in
trouble again.
Speaker 3 (19:58):
Right, And you know it, it was presented to me
a little differently, like a little more like, oh, like
let's just be careful and not like, hey, cut that out. Yeah,
it was just like let's just be careful because you know,
you don't want to like cause each other to like
falter on your walk, or you don't want to like
say something that could like basically trigger the other person.
Speaker 4 (20:16):
Marilyn.
Speaker 3 (20:17):
You worked from home at that time, so it was like, Oh,
Marilyn probably has to go back and go to her
work really quick, so she can't talk right now, you
know what I mean. I think that's kind of how
I was rationalizing it for myself and then being like, oh, and.
Speaker 4 (20:28):
I don't want to distract her from like whatever she's
supposed to be doing.
Speaker 1 (20:31):
Yeah, not wanting to be a distraction.
Speaker 2 (20:33):
You know, Marilyn, you mentioned earlier that some of what
was being asked of you you thought was just temporary,
like cutting off your family to get closer to God. Right,
Is that just kind of the energy that you both
felt throughout that this was all temporary sacrifices so you
can get closer to God, thinking that all of those
things were going to come back.
Speaker 1 (20:54):
When they gave us the news that we were getting
roommates the same day, within two hours, I was because
don't get me wrong, it's not like I never lived
with roommates. It's just we had no idea we were
ever getting roommates, and it wasn't presented to us like, oh,
you know, is it okay if we put some people
in the house that you know, you just paid fifteen
(21:15):
K to move into, Like is it fine with you?
Like no, it was never how do you feel about this?
Like are they even comfortable with you? Like we have
little kids? Like is it gonna annoy them? Just stuff
like that was going through my head, you know, like right,
And I also thought it was temporary, like they presented
like as someone that's serving God, like you need to
(21:36):
serve and help others in need. Right, So whatever thoughts
were going through my head or what I quickly put
them aside. I'm like, Okay, my first priority is I'm here,
you know, trying to get closer to God. I'm going
to serve. So if there's any way I can help others,
I'm going to do it. So no questions asked. I'm like, Okay,
it wasn't ideal, it wasn't what I expected, but it's
happening and welcome, you know.
Speaker 3 (21:57):
Right, And it really very much was not what you
signed up for. You had just sold your house and
moved and that was the day that we met, when
Kevin and I had like moved into the house, and
so I'd imagine, I know, like you have kids, you
have like a whole family there, Like that was extremely invasive,
and you know, on our end, like we were told
that there was a family living there, but like that
(22:18):
they already knew that they were going to have people
move and they just weren't sure who, right.
Speaker 2 (22:24):
So, Marilyn, can you walk us through a little bit
of what that moment was for you and those moments
for you of wanting to leave.
Speaker 1 (22:32):
You know, I'm over here working on a regular, full
time desk job. You know, I'm tired as it is.
I have a kid in school. I have a little
kid that's like not sleeping through the night, and that's
just my personal life. So on top of that, I
have to attend these Bible studies that are like three
hours long, you know, these services on Wednesdays and Sundays
that are four hours sometimes depending how long they want
(22:54):
to talk, go longer. So it's just a lot. It
was starting to just wear me out little by life
and not only just being you know, rebused and corrected.
That was also like on my mental health. That was
a lot because nothing I did was ever good enough.
I was always getting rebused left or right. But you know,
I was just being told constantly, like die to yourself,
(23:15):
die to yourself, like you know, it doesn't matter. You'retired.
Die to that, like, die to whatever it is that
you're thinking, Like, die to your thoughts, just even simple
things like wanting to take my kids to the park
and just not think about anything. You're just like, I
don't know, I don't know what the truth is anymore
because you're just so bubbled in that place. You're only
surrounded by them, what they're telling you. You can't be
(23:38):
on social media, at least for us. You're not communicating
with anybody outside. So you're literally just eating up everything
they're telling you constantly.
Speaker 2 (23:45):
So you found out that you were pregnant, and how
did your relationship change with them?
Speaker 1 (23:50):
Obviously it was unexpected. I had moved locations, so it
took forever to finally get an appointment to go get
a birth control implant. That's my instruction was, and that's
what I was there for. You know. Obviously they took
my urine and they said, oh, we can't give it
to you because you're pregnant. And just as they're telling me,
I'm shocked, I'm hyperventilating, And the first thing I have
(24:13):
to do is, obviously I texted my husband and I
called my mentor because she, you know, the reason I
was there. I can no longer proceed, so they're like
asking all these weird questions. And then my mentor I
felt like she was kind of giving me like kind
of like don't talk to me, like I'm not happy
with you right now. That I just felt broken. I
(24:36):
went home after the Bible study. I cried and I
told my husband, I don't feel safe here and I
feel horrible that I'm even pregnant, like and I shouldn't
be feeling like this, and I broke down. I told
him I struggled with the fertility for six years. I
finally got pregnant at thirty years old again after my
first child, and I felt that this pregnancy for me,
(25:00):
it was a blessing that God was, you know, doing
big things for me. And for them to treat me like,
oh no, like this was wrong. Like I even had
a nightmare. I had a nightmare that they were gonna
take my baby away. Whether it was true or not,
I don't know, but that was my nightmare and I
felt it was valid. It was just my emotions, my anxiety,
and that was it for me. I started like going
(25:21):
deep into how am I going to get out of
here because they have control. After that, it was just
for me. It was more like how am I gonna leave?
What am I going to leave behind?
Speaker 2 (25:31):
Like?
Speaker 1 (25:31):
How do I get out of here?
Speaker 2 (25:35):
When we return, Marilyn will guide us through her journey
of escaping. This is forgive me for I have followed.
Speaker 3 (25:46):
Welcome back to forgive me for I have followed. Here's
the conclusion of our conversation with Marilyn.
Speaker 1 (25:52):
I felt like, in a way, they wanted me to
die to my blood family, not just my family outside,
like my actual family, like I hardly say my husband.
It was only like at nighttime my kids that they
were being sent to other members' houses, like for me
to serve and be in other places. And that's just
it for me. And honestly that Bible said. I wanted
(26:12):
to just get home and wait for Kleian and hug
her and cry and tell her like I'm going to leave,
but I want you to leave with me, and I
didn't have the balls to do it. I regret it
because I felt maybe if I would have said something sooner,
I could have, you know, prevented other people from being hurt,
(26:33):
and maybe people still in there could have opened their eyes,
and they wouldn't be there right now, so I was
left with a lot of regret.
Speaker 3 (26:42):
No, it's really not your fault because it was such
a confusing time for all of us. And when you
finally told me that you were pregnant when we were there,
I was so excited for you, so like to hear
how they treated you regarding your pregnancy, and like it
was hard to hear then and it's still hard to
hear now, and like, I am really happy that you
were able to see it for what it was and
(27:02):
leave at the time that you did, And I think
I want to know, like how was that process like
for you leaving?
Speaker 1 (27:08):
I was so motivate to get out of there. I
texted my husband. He was at the church at the time,
he was probably going to get home late, and I said,
I'm going to pack everything I physically can and bags
and whatever. I'm going to leave it down stairs for you.
All you have to do is carry down the bed,
carry down our washroom dryer, because that was from our
house that we had purchased. And I'm just going to
(27:29):
take whatever I brought from my previous house and I'll
deal with the rest later. I took just my children's
belonging with my belongings, and I left, and I know
Khalia and Kevin, I think meanwhile, I was packing or something.
They came briefly and they didn't question it. They just
saw our stuff, and you know, it was kind of
like a sad goodbye, because yeah, there was just so
(27:50):
much I wanted to tell her, and I couldn't. I
was just in a rush to pack and just get
out of there. And I was always curious what they
said to the church once we left, because we lived
soad like it was literally like I think it took
us like a day and a half.
Speaker 2 (28:03):
What did they say to you, Khalia when they left.
Speaker 3 (28:06):
I'm curious after you guys had packed up and left,
they were trying to like make up some crazy story
like they're mad at you guys, like they don't want.
Speaker 4 (28:13):
To be here.
Speaker 3 (28:14):
They're really upset at you guys. That's why you shouldn't
talk to them. And then also like wow, right, no exactly,
and then oh, they're like, oh, they probably had like
a bunch of like random people in the house to
like whatever, and all of your stuff is here, and
we were like.
Speaker 4 (28:27):
Right, oh, that's funny, seriously.
Speaker 3 (28:31):
And Kevin and I looked at them and we were like,
that's totally fine if they had family come and help.
That's what family does when you move place to place.
How else were they going to get all of their
stuff out of here? Like to us, we were like, okay, and.
Speaker 1 (28:42):
That was a two person move and my husband and
let me tell you, it was not easy. We literally
left and drove off at night, but we still had
to come back the next day to recover a few
things and leave a few things. And it wasn't like
we cut off complete communication after that, you know, a
few months past and then you know, our family was
totally confused, like we hadn't talked to at least me
(29:05):
and my family. I hadn't talked to them in like
seven months. I cut them off cold turkey. So when
we came back, they didn't even know how to talk
to us. It was like seeing aliens for the first time.
The only people we actually had communication at first was
my husband's mother. She welcomed us and we all crammed
in her room and when we left, she gave us
(29:26):
permission to stay there until we found somewhere to go.
And it's a big change when you're going from literally
complete dependency and just following orders and instructions. Your mindset
is just like, Okay, what do I do next? Can
I do this? That? To finally getting your freedom back
and having to think for yourself, it's a complete change.
And my husband struggled a little bit more than I did. Spiritually.
(29:48):
He couldn't talk about it, he couldn't talk about the church,
he didn't want to talk to me about it.
Speaker 4 (29:51):
He was just mute.
Speaker 1 (29:52):
And he still had that kind of mentality to die
to yourself. So anything I wanted to do, like now
that we were free, hey, let's go did this, Let's
take the kids here. I want to do I want
to buy this, his response was always like, die to yourself,
Die to yourself.
Speaker 4 (30:05):
And I felt like.
Speaker 1 (30:06):
Even though we left physically, he was still there spiritually,
and there was a time that we were almost getting
stuck back in. He was like emailing Matthew, his mentor
at the time, and I emailed truly, and I was
just like, I don't know if we did the right thing.
Like that's kind of how when you finally leave, it's
(30:28):
not so easy, Like you don't just because you leave
doesn't mean that you feel free. Like we still felt
like we.
Speaker 4 (30:34):
Had to go back.
Speaker 1 (30:35):
Like there was a time we almost went back, and
I think I think you remember it was around the
time you were leaving, around the process of leaving. I
didn't know that till after, but it was like fourth
of July. I already had my baby and we went
over there and we were literally so close to rejoining
because we thought maybe everything they told us was true,
(30:56):
and we were so lost. We were scared we were
being cursed and that's why, you know, things were not
going so well, and we were slowly coming back and
thank god we didn't because I was like, no, like
we left for a reason, I'm going to stick to that.
And if we're cursed, if things happened to us, because
(31:16):
this was the tutrition, and so be it. But we
finally got back on our feet and we started thinking
for ourselves again, and like things started moving along and
we finally like woke up and we started seeing things
for what they were, all the red flags. Everything just
came out of nowhere like boom. But it took a while.
It was a process.
Speaker 3 (31:35):
And I remember that fourth of July because that was
the day after we decided to leave.
Speaker 4 (31:40):
Oh wow, oh that was like the very next day.
A little bit later.
Speaker 3 (31:43):
That's when Jessica and I got together and started talking
and getting involved with the documentary.
Speaker 4 (31:49):
And I really want to know, like, what.
Speaker 3 (31:51):
Was it like for you after the documentary came out,
just like your reaction to it.
Speaker 1 (31:58):
I didn't want to watch it at first. I wasn't ready.
My husband watched the first and I was on like
my little corner office, but I could hear the documentary
plane and anytime they played an audio of just like
a not in my stomach. But when I saw it all,
like it kind of brought peace to me to know that,
you know, you guys were able to share your story
(32:19):
and like you guys understood in a sense what we
went through, why we left, you know, all the red flags.
It wasn't in my head, no, So it was super
amazing to watch and just to hear you guys and
to know that we weren't alone.
Speaker 3 (32:35):
Thank you so much for sitting and having this conversation
with us. And I know the conversation between us was
so overdue that I'm glad to be able to do
it in this way where we could like potentially help
other people that have been involved and it gave me
a lot of like closure and good reminder as to
like why I did the documentary in the first place. Yes,
this was a shared experience between all of us, like
(32:58):
we all have the story because this is what was
really going on, Like it's definitely not in your head,
and like I'm hoping that other people will hear that
and know that too, whether it be this situation or
a different situation. But no, I really want to thank
you for your vulnerability to come on and talk with
us about it, and you know, hopefully we can make
you know some more waves to let more people hear
(33:20):
and help them not feel so alone as well.
Speaker 4 (33:23):
Now, thank you.
Speaker 1 (33:24):
It's a scary thing to voice and say your story
and what you went through, So thank you for being
one of the brave ones.
Speaker 3 (33:41):
Marylyn's story of leaving the church and embarking on a
new beginning is deeply inspiring. We wish her the very
best on her journey toward dealing.
Speaker 2 (33:48):
Thank you for tuning into this episode of Forgive Me
For I Have Followed. We are extremely thankful to Marilyn
for sharing her experience with us. We'll be back next.
Speaker 3 (33:56):
Week Forgive Me For I Have Followed is a production
from WVCA, Dirty Robert and iHeartMedia's Michael Tore podcast network,
hosted by me Khalia Gray and me Jess Talsovetto Forgive
Me for I Have Followed is produced by Aaron Berlson
and Sophie Spencer zabos.
Speaker 2 (34:11):
Our executive producers are Khalia Gray, myself, Walmer Balderama, Leo
Klam and Aaron Burlison at wv Sound.
Speaker 3 (34:18):
This episode was edited by Sean Tracy and features original
music by Madison Davenport and Halo Boy. For more podcasts
from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever
you listen to your favorite shows. See you next week,
See you next week,
Hosts And Creators
Jessica Acevedo
Kailea Gray
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