February 6, 2025 • 36 mins
In this special episode of Forgive Me for I Have Followed, Jessica and Kailea reflect on their journey throughout the series, revisiting the guests and conversations that left a lasting impact. They’ll also highlight memorable moments, share personal insights, and offer candid reflections on key sermon recordings from Shekinah Pastor Robert Shinn.
Forgive Me For I Have Followed continues the exploration from Netflix’s hit Dancing for the Devil documentary series by delving deeper into the personal stories of those affected by Robert Shinn, Shekinah Church, and 7M Films. We will focus on the experiences of victims and their families, address urgent questions raised in the documentary, and gather insights from former members and dancers. Our goal is to uncover strategies for combating abuse and ensuring that controlling, cult-like communities are held accountable for their actions.
*The following is based on actual events. Certain composite and representative materials and characters have been used for dramatic purposes.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
You have to decide which cult you're going to be
belonged to. Everybody who is not a loser isn't a cult.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Okay, only the losers are. They're not in cult.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
But everybody else who was like up and coming that
they got ambition, they want.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
To get on something with a life.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
They're on tour, they're working eight hours, ten hours, they
working at their craft, and they're devoted to that.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
They're in a cult.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
Welcome back to forgive me for I have followed. I'm
Jess Casavetto, executive producer of the Netflix series Dancing for
the Devil the Seven M TikTok Cult. This documentary series
explored the story of Robert Schin, the La based Chicaina
Church and Seven M Films. Shin founded Chicaina Church over
two decades ago before establishing Seven M Films and is
named in a civil lawsuit alleging abuse and cult like behavior.
Speaker 4 (01:01):
And I'm Kalia Gray, former member of Chakina Church and
Seven M Films.
Speaker 3 (01:05):
In this series, so far, we've spoken with ex Chakaina members,
family members of current members, a psychologist, social media journalists.
All of these folks painted such a broader picture of
Chicina and high controlled groups in general, and through the
process of this podcast so far, we've had plenty of
outreach from individuals in relation to Chkina, but also well
(01:25):
beyond specifically and other cult like environments, and their words
couldn't be ignored.
Speaker 4 (01:30):
Coming up in this next chapter, we're going to explore
some of the stories that we've heard and share with you.
We really created this platform for individuals that want to
shine a light on their experiences. But before we get
to our next chapter, we want to reflect on some
of the guests that we've had on and the people
that we have connected with so far, things that stood
(01:51):
out and you know, just moments in the conversations that
really resonated with us.
Speaker 3 (01:56):
Although we are going to be talking about other high
controlled groups, cult like environments, the door is open for
Chakaina members, ex members, current members, whoever wants to speak
when you feel ready. But to kick off this episode,
a couple episodes ago, Kalie and I were talking about
how there's a lot going on and we mentioned that
(02:17):
Alisha Lee has been posting on her social media stories
a countdown and sharing a lot of receipts. In addition
to that, Alicia has started to post a lot of
sermons from Robert and we would like to share some
of those. We did get permission from her to kind
(02:38):
of dive into that, but also to Kalia's point, it
does touch on some of those moments that we're going
to be reflecting on. One thing I did want to
also mention is that Alisha had shared that how in
these sermons, you're going to hear responses that are happening
from members of Chakaina that are responding to Robert with
(02:59):
hallelujah amens. And there's a lot of hate that's happening
on social media towards the dancers and those people that
they're dumb and how could they follow and what are
they thinking? And it's so clear. But when you're in
those type of environments and you're in those groups, I
think it's important for us to just lead with like
love and understanding and patience that it's going to have
(03:22):
to happen on their own time, and it can be
very easy for someone to engage in an environment like that.
You and Kevin had spoken a little bit about that
in Aubrey how sometimes these sermons are hours long, and
Aubrey mentioned at times like he doesn't even remember some
of it because they were so long, and he kind
of like I don't want to say, like he just
kind of blacked out, but like he was in the zone.
Speaker 4 (03:44):
I mean absolutely, And even while I'm hearing like some
of these sermons, I'm like, I think I was there
for that, but I can't be too sure. And it
kind of speaks to that, Like you said, hours long
and so many a week that and you do just
in a way tune it out, but it's just so
much information, not.
Speaker 5 (03:59):
All of it. It's going to be retained, and then
definitely hearing.
Speaker 4 (04:01):
It back after you realize how problematic it is, and
we feel it a bit of ourselves of like I
can't believe I was listening to this man, Like I
agree with you, like this does sound crazy, but while there,
it's hard to see the big picture of things. I've
seen some of the comments as well underneath and just
it's a level of like victim blaming, So you're making
(04:23):
the person responsible for the crime and the abuse that
they're experiencing instead of blaming the person that's actually doing
the abuse. And I think that can be very problematic
and it can drive people deeper into the cults when
they're seeing like.
Speaker 5 (04:37):
Oh, they're so stupid or they're so silly.
Speaker 4 (04:39):
It's like, well, I'm gonna dig my heels in and
just further believe what is going on.
Speaker 5 (04:44):
And I think it makes it more dangerous. And I understand.
Speaker 4 (04:47):
I feel like most people, we want to see people
leave and see the truth and like open their eyes
in a way. But being mean or nasty, not leading
with love and compassion, like you said, is not the
best way of doing that.
Speaker 3 (04:59):
I agree.
Speaker 4 (05:00):
Just as a disclaimer, if you've been in this world
in any other high control groups or cult like environments,
some of this may be triggering for you, so please
take care when listening. So with that being said, let's
get started. This first one that I pulled, it really
reminded me of our conversation with Aubrey and also doctor Gideon,
So let's take a listen to it and then we
(05:21):
can reflect on it together.
Speaker 1 (05:24):
I guess all these attentions because we are filled with
people are beautiful and successful. The annoying team makes us
beautiful and successful.
Speaker 2 (05:39):
Amen.
Speaker 1 (05:39):
You should see vict year and a half ago not
too good looking, Amen, but now he is because of
the nineteen Hallelujah. I said, Hellelujah. Even Miranda a couple
of years ago, you've seen her at all things like, Okay,
(06:00):
you know now she's beautiful and successful. Amen, Hellelijah. I
mean they call Aubrey handsome. Now he is, but before
he wasn't. What I always believe that anointing makes you.
Speaker 2 (06:26):
Attractive.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
It brings out the light in you. You know, everybody looks,
so I think with the best looking group in the
whole you know, in the whole world, and it's the
anointing that makes us good.
Speaker 2 (06:41):
Hallliah. Yeah, So that's why.
Speaker 1 (06:44):
Would be in the attack, because people are jealous, jealous
of our success, jealous of the glory that's in us.
And the Bible says where there's jealousy and self selfishness,
there's every evil thing.
Speaker 2 (06:59):
Jane chapter three or sixteen. I'm not gonna be it,
but you know I love you.
Speaker 3 (07:05):
One of the first things that stood out to me
is what we talked about in the tight Ises episode
when I mentioned that Kendra and Miranda were reflecting on
dying to themselves and they started to talk about their appearances.
And I just found that to be a little bit
jarring because one I thought that they looked beautiful in
(07:26):
those photos. But listening to this sermon, that was the
first thing that came to my mind is like, oh,
when you have someone sitting on the pulpit and also
very quickly going past the actual like Bible verse and
just reflecting on his own opinions, it hurt my heart
a little bit. It's just not right, and that starts
to like break a person down when you start to
(07:47):
think about your appearance and when your own pastor is
commenting on it, on whether or not you are ugly
or beautiful or successful, it's just jarring for me.
Speaker 4 (07:57):
I also had a lot of experience with that because
you know, I wasn't so one who was in like
social media and the limelight, and so I think I
was really made to feel like, oh, Khalia, you don't
need that makeup because that's not your career.
Speaker 5 (08:08):
You know, it would be like said in that way.
Speaker 4 (08:11):
But then there was a lot that just made me
feel very less than when it came to like all
of my friends and like the people who I was,
you know, there and around and like my colleagues. So
hearing it back, it just reminds me of those times
where it's like, oh, KHLEI, like, you don't have to
wear the brand new clothes. I know we have to
dress them up, but it's because they're in the limelight.
They need the attention to bring eyes on the Kingdom
(08:32):
of God. Is like what they would say there would
be like, you know, everyone is important, but you don't
necessarily have to look good, so feel blessed about that.
I think that was like kind of the sentiments that
I would feel. And even hearing him like go in
on Aubrey was really so disheartening because it's like the
way that he had said it too, like oh, even Aubrey, like,
(08:55):
what do you mean? Like, yeah, I had mentioned how
like we heard doctor Gideon say, we're often taught that
imperfection is the reflection of something that's really broken inside
of you. Yeah, And so hearing that, I was like, no,
that was an attempt at breaking people down, like saying
like you're imperfect, so you must be broken because everything
(09:16):
in the Kingdom of God is perfect, and you know
we're taught to be you have to be perfect, just
like just like Jesus, just like God, Like that's that's
what you're striving to be. And so I know she
had doctor Gideon had also mentioned that part of the
deprogramming is understanding that we are imperfect people and we
have to do like the best that we can, and
(09:37):
the best that we can is okay. Yeah, And so
I think that was something for me that I did
also have to deprogram a little bit or gain a
little bit of that confidence back that I feel was
taken from me while I was there.
Speaker 3 (09:49):
For sure, thank you for sharing that, Khaleak. So this
next sermon that we pulled. Obviously in the documentary, we
spoke a lot about Robert's system of giving tithing offering,
and in one of our episodes, Andrew so vulnerably and
openly talked about how much he was paid in the
flower shop and how he was going about tithing and
(10:12):
how again this has been going on for decades for Robert.
Speaker 2 (10:18):
Matthew Chapter thirteen, verse forty four. May even in heaven.
Speaker 4 (10:25):
It's like a treasure hidden.
Speaker 1 (10:28):
Again, okay, Kingdom of Heaven, what's it like?
Speaker 2 (10:34):
It's a hidden treasure? Okay? Continue and from.
Speaker 4 (10:41):
Joint over it he goes and stills all that he has.
Speaker 1 (10:46):
Okay, Kingdom of Heaven is a hidden treasure that has
a price, and you must buy you must pay for Yeah,
and that's that scripture tells us what the price is
that you've got.
Speaker 2 (11:01):
That's it. That's a price. Let's take a price, and
that's it. You buy it. You can buy it, or
you can't buy it. That's it.
Speaker 3 (11:08):
After hearing that sermon, that's obviously not a direct comment
about tiding, we have heard sermons like that where he says,
you know, you reap what you sew. What you give
is what you'll get back. And he is talking specifically
about finances, but curious on your take.
Speaker 4 (11:26):
Something that they have said since I first started going
there was that money is like the lowest form of commitment,
that's like level one.
Speaker 5 (11:33):
That should be like the easiest thing to give up.
Speaker 4 (11:36):
And so like when I hear sermons like this, and
to your point, like he is absolutely talking about financially,
because it's in almost every sermon, but it does go
deeper into like, but what else are you willing to
pay with your time, your family? What else are you
willing to sacrifice for the kingdom of God.
Speaker 3 (11:54):
It's a lot of pressure. It's like if you just
think about like work, if you're giving everything that you
have in the eight to twelve or however, many hours
that you're working and you know you're giving your all
and as much as you can, and someone comes in
and they say, hey, you're not working hard enough. And
for you, you're like, maybe the time that I'm committing here
(12:15):
in this church is all that I can give. That's
a lot of weight to put on a person. And
constantly instilling that mentality that you're not doing enough, you're
not giving enough, I could see how that could break
a person down if they're constantly being reminded of that.
Speaker 4 (12:32):
And it's also adding on to that level of expectations.
So of like what you should give, like like you said,
multiple sermons on it, but like so the dancers are
expected to basically give a total of fifty percent, so
twenty percent management fee is seven M, and then thirty
percent for like tithes and offerings and granted, like there
(12:53):
was a very strong expectation to give that. So there
are some people who gave way more, there are some
people who gave less, but like it was definitely like
a very heavily influenced expectation to where like if you're
not meeting this bare minimum, the idea is like, well
you must not be like Christian enough, you know, like
you said, like you're not doing enough, You're not giving enough.
(13:14):
Robert would say all the time that, like this is
an extreme church because we really want to enter the
Kingdom and the.
Speaker 5 (13:19):
Only way to enter heaven is to be extreme.
Speaker 4 (13:23):
And so what would be extreme is, oh, giving one
hundred percent of your income. And he would talk about
the people, specifically the people in that first row, so
like the mentors and the people who've been there for years,
that like they give it all. They I just give
them a little bit of allowance and they give it all.
Look at how dedicated they are. This is forgive me
for I have followed. We'll be right back.
Speaker 3 (13:48):
Welcome back to forgive me for I have followed. Now
back to our conversation.
Speaker 4 (13:55):
This next sermon is about cutting family, which is I
think one of the biggest catalysts into like getting the
story out and getting it into different people because of
how many people were losing contact with their kids and
with their family members to this group. So let's listen
to this sermon and then we can reflect on him
(14:16):
talking about cutting family.
Speaker 1 (14:18):
Cutting family, okay, is a privilege that you must earn, Okay, Otherwise,
if you cut their family. All it does is cause
us trouble.
Speaker 2 (14:33):
You get what I'm saying.
Speaker 1 (14:35):
That's something some of our mentors don't really understand. And
once I have to step is just you know, I
had to text mathe let them talk to parents.
Speaker 2 (14:47):
What are you doing? Right? So don't do that. It's
going to cause trouble because.
Speaker 1 (14:53):
People out there, they're not gonna understand separating yourself from
the world. They're not going to understand that. So you
got to do it in a way that they don't
even feel it.
Speaker 2 (15:04):
And see that.
Speaker 1 (15:06):
So far, you know, this problem, okay, is caused by Wilkins.
We handle it all wrong. Okay, It's a trouble that
we brought upon ourselves. That's why when I decided to
take over, is that I said, okay, dash Mr.
Speaker 2 (15:23):
You go and visit in Michigan. You got to be undercover.
Speaker 1 (15:27):
You know what undercover means they don't know that you're
cutting them. Once they know that you're cutting them, that
is wrong approach. You got to cut them without them
knowing that you're cutting them. That means you got to
meet with them.
Speaker 2 (15:41):
You got to talk to.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
Them, you know, way that they understand your friends everybody.
Speaker 2 (15:47):
Yeah, you follow me so far in the two point
zero your execution being terrible. Amen. It takes diligence to
be able.
Speaker 1 (15:59):
To cut your friends and family out in a way
that they don't even know that they didn't cut out,
because that's what the Bible says, right, separate yourself right right,
doing the word.
Speaker 2 (16:09):
But you do it lazy way. Oh I'm I'm just
gonna ignore them. Well you can't.
Speaker 1 (16:12):
You can't ignore speaking tickets, you can't ignore family.
Speaker 2 (16:15):
They're not gonna go away.
Speaker 1 (16:18):
All he does is bring attention, okay to the church,
and they're gonna attack me.
Speaker 2 (16:27):
I'm just sharing the word. What the word says, you know.
Speaker 1 (16:29):
I mean, the thing is not only you're supposed to
cut your family, you gotta cut yourself.
Speaker 4 (16:34):
The thing that really is irking me is all of
the sermons leading up to the sermon Robert had said
the exact opposite. And so when things started coming out
and started doing now all of a sudden, it was like,
oh no, no, no, no, like you guys were doing it
all wrong, like you should have been slowly doing it
to where they can't even tell He never that was
not what he would preach before that. It would be
(16:57):
like no, don't respond to them at all. Like I
remember there was one point on the pulpit where he
would like tell the story of someone was on the
phone with like their grandma, and he was like kind
of like mocking them.
Speaker 5 (17:07):
Like oh grandma, grandma.
Speaker 4 (17:09):
Like oh that he was saying, like, oh, it's so disgusting,
Like you're basically just saying like you care more about
your flesh family than God, and God should always be first.
So like that's kind of like why, I'm like, it's
so jarring that now all of a sudden, when you're
being called out, it's showing me that I think he's
just not used to having people that actually have like family,
(17:29):
have friends are in the spotlight because he would always
well I won't say always, but it seems like he
would be going after people who were immigrants, who didn't
have too much family, who weren't necessarily well off or from,
you know, families that are involved in their lives, and
so it was easier to get away with isolating people.
But now with this new group, it's like you're trying
(17:49):
to isolate people that are very involved in their communities,
very loved by their communities. That's why he had to
change his tune while like blaming the rest of us
for like following what he was saying in the first place.
Speaker 3 (18:02):
Leah was mentioning when we interviewed her, when Daniel cut
ties with his family. But I think that's something that
was like really telling, is that he's been doing this
for decades. You know, he's not getting the response that
he wants. You had loyal people like Daniel willing to
cut off their family, but they are still very close knit.
And then you have him just straight up calling the
(18:26):
Wilking family out in this sermon, which, as we know
at that time, that's when things really like shit hit
the fan. Everything started to come out. The Wilkings are
speaking out, they're doing their Instagram live, you have Katie
Joy posting comments where then Leah mentioned that she used
that platform to try to write a letter to her
(18:47):
brother to try to get attention, like there is so
much happening, which I believe is seemingly around this time
that starts to put the pressure on him. And so
when the pressure goes on him, he has to deflect
and put it on someone else, and that seemingly to
be Matthew and everyone else. Everyone else's fault, but his.
Speaker 4 (19:08):
Even just the fact that that is a big message
that he preaches often of like cutting family and like
even saying it's a privilege to cut family. And like
now that we're on the other end and we're seeing
the families that are affected, like we've had Megdalia, Melanie, Marilyn, Like,
oh my gosh, Marilyn's story of like how she's felt
(19:29):
that she's missed so much of her family's life, like
birthdays and parties and that time that you just don't
get back. It can be very devastating, and also the
relationships that like might never be the same.
Speaker 3 (19:40):
Oh yeah, and Amanda. I mean we read that letter
last week of from Amanda's father and that was from
decades ago. And so this has been an ongoing thing,
and I think obviously what Robert's dealing with now is
social media. Social media is like the thing that he
wanted to use to his benefit, which ultimately might be
the thing to take him down.
Speaker 4 (20:02):
And also just like even like you said, for now,
what's happening with Reino, where Reino has deleted his social
media and he's gone basically missed, like people aren't sure
where he is, Like the hashtag wears Reino. We've talked
about on here, but like it's that, I don't know,
cutting a family and now it's also just like cutting
off the world. It's really scary, you know. It makes
(20:24):
me really worry for the people that are still there. Yeah,
absolutely on that.
Speaker 3 (20:28):
When social media picked up this story and it got
out there, obviously, like that's when we became aware of
the story and we started to look into this deeper,
which I've mentioned many times, but that pressure that he's
feeling from social media, then it gets one step further.
He starts to feel the pressure from media. And it's
(20:49):
worth a listen on this one because he really takes
some time to talk about Netflix's stocks and where they're at,
and I'm like, I think they're doing just fine, but uh, yeah,
we can have a little listen.
Speaker 2 (21:02):
During this time, I had to.
Speaker 1 (21:05):
Write out my warfare prayer list. So I have my
notes and I do my prayer and then I put
it in front of me and.
Speaker 2 (21:15):
Then I speak it out daily.
Speaker 1 (21:19):
I had to plead the blood over you know, Sandwich
and her minions.
Speaker 2 (21:25):
Many extra Kin Church members.
Speaker 1 (21:28):
Specifically put out Wilkings family and family members of other
current Chicon church members, the dance community, and some of
the few people their medium production companies including HBO, Max, Netflix,
and I declared C and D cease and desist over them.
(21:49):
I declare stop communication between the opposing forces. And then
I confessed anyone that touches the annointy Annointed.
Speaker 2 (21:57):
Which shows I will suffer harm.
Speaker 3 (22:01):
This is a man of God that we're talking about,
and as a pastor, spreading harm and putting out that
narrative is so dangerous but also like reckless in my opinion,
Why would you not be praying for all of us
that are speaking against the quote unquote anointed and praying
for understanding and praying for acceptance or whatever it might be.
(22:25):
But to say that you want these people to suffer harm,
I guess for me, I just I feel for the
Wilkings during this one. Like knowing that your daughter is
sitting into that room knowing that this man is speaking
out saying that he wants harm against them. That's got
to be so hard for her to hear. And it's
got to be so hard for the Wilkings to have
(22:46):
to hear this sermon and the Rino's to hear this sermon.
I just feel for all the families that have been affected,
and we talked a little bit about this on a
previous episode, is that there's so many other people nig
Dhalia's episode and talking about the effects that it has
on family members, that one makes me a little bit angry.
Speaker 4 (23:05):
Absolutely, And to echo what you're saying, it really is
like against everything that the Bible, Like the Bible says
vengeance is the Lord's Like the Bible tells you you're
supposed to just love on people.
Speaker 5 (23:16):
You're supposed to just come from a.
Speaker 4 (23:18):
Place of understanding and compassion and like and you give
it to God ultimately that's what is supposed to happen.
And like, just hearing this back, it's like, wow, that's
not even in the word. Really, I don't know, Like
you said, wishing harm to people is not what we
should be hearing from spiritual figures.
Speaker 3 (23:36):
When we return the conclusion of our conversation, this is
forgive me for I have followed.
Speaker 4 (23:46):
Welcome back to forgive me for I have followed. Here's
the conclusion of our conversation. So we do have a
couple more excerpts of his sermons that we want to share,
and this next one he talks about Kendra and Bentley
deal that she had and he also calls out a
former member of the church.
Speaker 1 (24:07):
But as of two weeks ago, Okay, we're in a
place where God is moving upon our enemies, Amen, and
we shall see glory, and we are seeing glory being
manifested right now and the enemy's being stopped.
Speaker 2 (24:20):
We're in a different.
Speaker 1 (24:21):
Season now, Amen, We're in a season of glory right now,
and you're seeing his work coming before your eyes.
Speaker 2 (24:34):
I mean, small thing. I'll mentioned small things, Miranda, and
that that his.
Speaker 1 (24:42):
Ex wife was in social media talking about Dash apparently
apologize to you.
Speaker 2 (24:49):
Right and allowing him.
Speaker 1 (24:52):
To spend time with you know, Jaden and stuff like that,
and those things are just you know, small, but that's
not small. Miranda had a meeting with her parents and
Melanie the other day and then they got into an
argument about, you know, taking down posts about Instagram.
Speaker 2 (25:10):
Live, and then you know they Melanie.
Speaker 1 (25:15):
Refused to well, next day Instagram changed their algorithm and
their Instagram Live I think was taken down next day.
Speaker 2 (25:24):
Next day they just changed the thing.
Speaker 1 (25:27):
Still you can still find it, but you have to
scroll down and find it. But it's not in the
you know, Amen, Hallelujahliah, thank you Lord. And there's many
other things I don't want to mention because it's too controversial, Okay,
because I don't want people's oh passions said this. I
don't want you know, amen, even with Nda, some of
you just may do this Hallelujah, thank you Lord. And
(25:52):
during the same time because the glory, I mean, you know,
it's been a while sin since I said this, but
you know, Kendra had to deal with bet you know,
that was three months ago. It just disappeared, but Hannah
was able to revive it and now she's got a
Betley deal for twenty thousand dollars.
Speaker 3 (26:13):
It's a lot to unpack there. But just going back
to Angela's episode, that was one of my favorite conversations
that we had because she is such a strong woman
and a mother and at the end and everything that
she's gone through and whether it's like her own personal
anger or frustrations in a situation like she's always thinking
(26:35):
about her kids and putting her kids first and leading
with love and showing that as an example, and she
did it on the podcast that her hope is that
their families can unite, and that included Miranda and James
into her life, and so yes, was Angela speaking out
at that time, Yes, But also you know, I think
(26:58):
she expressed that it came in these waves, like one
second he's around, and then the next second James is gone,
and it's taking a toll. It's taken a toll on
her family. But I think really just appreciating her vulnerability
and honesty and for Jaden's encouragement for Angela to speak
(27:18):
with us and encouraging his mom to speak out. Yeah,
it's just a testament to the people that love those
that are still in Chicaina and a part of seven
m and hoping that if it ever gets back to them,
that that this could be more of a platform for
them to understand that this is coming from a place
of love, not from anger and hate.
Speaker 4 (27:40):
Right. I'm also seeing, like from what he was saying,
just a lot of kind of like floundering in a
way where he's trying to find like, oh, like, look
at how blessed we are because of Instagram changed their algorithm.
And you know, the video is not at the very
top of the page. You have to look for it,
and like because one of the big things that he
harps on is how like blessed that group is because
(28:01):
they have God's favor, And so I think like he's
trying to remind people, no, like, no, we still have
God's favor, So look at all of the.
Speaker 5 (28:07):
Small things that are really good and a big deal.
Speaker 4 (28:10):
And then you know, ending it with like Kendra and
her Bentley deal and how much money she made from that, like.
Speaker 5 (28:15):
See, we're still blessed.
Speaker 4 (28:16):
We still have the favor of God because we're still
getting these things. And so it's like just trying to
look for ways to be like, don't listen to what
the other people are saying. We're still blessed, right, And
then you know, it also just reminds me of like
just that it's not worth it if it's money, if
it's the feeling of connection, Like it's not worth what
people are being put through, what families are being put
(28:37):
through your life that you can like.
Speaker 5 (28:40):
Live outside of it.
Speaker 4 (28:42):
So I feel like if I had stayed there, the
things that God really wanted me to do, I wouldn't
have done. And so I felt like it was taking
me off of my personal spiritual path and what like
God has really put in my life. And so just
hearing him say those things. I'm like, you know, it's
it's not worth because you're actually giving up what God
really wants for you.
Speaker 3 (29:03):
To kind of close out this episode, when we are
listening to a previous sermon, Kalia, you mentioned extremes and
how in this group he uses extremes to justify certain things,
and in this last sermon, it's a bit of that
and him straight up saying we are a cult and
trying to justify these extremes. So we'll listen to it
(29:26):
and we can talk a little bit about it.
Speaker 1 (29:29):
You know, the world don't understand the process of sanctification.
Speaker 2 (29:33):
They don't value it. They don't know what it is.
Process of holiness.
Speaker 1 (29:40):
Okay, I know it, you know it.
Speaker 2 (29:44):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (29:46):
Part of the sanctification holiness is that you don't copy
the behaviors of the world, but the customer of this world. Okay, Amen,
So you know what to do that you have to
be so devoted, so committed.
Speaker 2 (30:00):
Isn't it follow follow the word?
Speaker 1 (30:03):
And the famous word comes up every time that comes up,
cult that church is cult.
Speaker 2 (30:09):
Well, Jesus is a cult. Yes, Amen.
Speaker 1 (30:15):
Anything that's devotional, anything that has excellent, anything that's.
Speaker 2 (30:22):
Worthwhile in the world.
Speaker 1 (30:23):
They're all cult music, dancing, acting, sports, educational, high finance, politics. Okay, Well,
there's religious cults like Mormonism, Hindu, Buddhism, Scientology. They're all cults,
and so is christian Real Christianity is also a cult. Okay,
(30:45):
all right, But so you have to you have to
decide which cult you're going to be belonged to. Everybody
who is not a loser isn't a cult. Okay, only
the losers are.
Speaker 2 (30:58):
They're not in cult.
Speaker 1 (30:59):
Yes, the couch potatoes and they watch Netflix and they
got their popcorns or potato chips all the time, and
they collect the unemployment check.
Speaker 2 (31:09):
They're not in cult, you know.
Speaker 1 (31:15):
But everybody else who's like up and coming, they got ambition,
they want to.
Speaker 2 (31:19):
Get on something with life.
Speaker 1 (31:21):
They're on tour, they're working eight hours, ten hours and
working at their craft, and they devoted to that.
Speaker 2 (31:26):
They're in a cult.
Speaker 3 (31:29):
So this kind of goes back to what I was
saying earlier, where like to me, when I listened to this,
I feel like he's trying to justify what's being put
out there. So social media blows up. There's all of
these articles and comments and all these things that are
being said about the group, and the word cult starts
to get thrown around a lot, and now he's trying
(31:52):
to use it as like a positive. He's trying to
flip the script for people to say, it's not a
bad thing to be in a cult.
Speaker 5 (31:59):
Everybody a cult.
Speaker 3 (32:00):
Everybody's in a cult unless you eat potato chips and
watch Netflix, which by the way, I do and I'm
not unemployed. But that's okay too, if that's where you're
at in your life. But I'm hearing it so clearly
as a manipulative tool to like flip the narrative to
work in his favor. And he's using again these extremes
(32:22):
to justify the statements that are being made about him
and about the church and about his members and followers.
Speaker 4 (32:29):
It just makes me feel like he knows what he's doing, because,
like you said, it's kind of pacifying that, like, yeah,
they're saying in a cult, but like everyone's in a cult.
Speaker 5 (32:38):
This is a cult.
Speaker 4 (32:38):
That's a cult, And I think it's really important being
able to discern the difference between what is a cult
and what is not a cult.
Speaker 3 (32:45):
Yeah, again, I feel like he's trying to normalize the word.
He's trying to make it seem okay. But then as
you get out of a group like that, you know,
in Amanda's episode, that process of trusting again, when you
are so willfully believeing what someone is saying and the
conversations that are being had, you have to learn to
trust God again and separate Robert from actual Christianity. What
(33:09):
is the truth? And that whole deeprogramming process is its
own struggle for people, And so very much appreciate Amanda
sharing her experience of that.
Speaker 4 (33:20):
I really do draw parallels from what Amanda was talking
about to like things that Kevin is experiencing, where like,
you know, I'm grateful that he's like, you know, I
still believe in God, I still trust God, but he
very much is like, but I don't trust the church.
Speaker 5 (33:33):
I don't trust like people in a church. I don't
trust church buildings.
Speaker 4 (33:36):
And it's like, especially because of all of the things
that has happened, like from the first church that Crump
was a part of the hospitality and then into Chicaina
and seven m Kevin has said multiple there's no way
I'm stepping foot in another church building, And so it
gives like Christianity and religion a very bad name, because
there are people who are out there promoting and parading
(33:58):
as like real t true Christians, like we talked about
Robert mentioning like ch Kina is an extremist church, like
we are the real Christians. You know. That's where it
gets so like convoluted and like messy as far as
like being able.
Speaker 5 (34:12):
To deprogram, like what was Robert?
Speaker 4 (34:13):
And like this bad person versus what do I actually
believe when it comes to my spiritual walk and my
spiritual journey?
Speaker 3 (34:20):
Well, really want to think every single person that has
shared their story with us so far and been so
open and vulnerable and honest about their experience, and for
those that have experienced other high controlled groups that have
reached out to us, that have been in our dms
and have shared their experiences. We look forward to the
(34:42):
next chapter of creating this space for you all as well,
and learning about other groups and maybe finding a way
that we can find healing in this process and potential justice.
That's what we want to continue to do. Forgive me.
Speaker 4 (35:01):
I'm also looking forward to this next chapter because I
feel like it's going to help I think transmute a
lot of like the trauma that I've gone through and
like it reminds me that I was able to pull
something out of it that is positive and that can
make a change, and not just people related to this group,
but other groups that have gone through something similar and
that want to share their stories and deserve to share
(35:23):
their stories. And so I'm really looking forward to continue
to build this platform for those people.
Speaker 5 (35:29):
And it really reminds me that.
Speaker 4 (35:31):
It's okay, Like you did go through this, but it's okay,
and you can build something better out of it and
something that can make a positive impact on others.
Speaker 3 (35:49):
Thank you, Alicia for sharing these sermons with everyone and
your countdown. And like we said previously, the Lee's sisters
are going to be starting their podcast, so do please
follow at seven m TikTok cult on Instagram for updates
and for when they drop their podcast.
Speaker 4 (36:11):
Forgive Me For I Have Followed is a production from
WV Sound, Dirty Robert and iHeartMedia's Michael Tora podcast Network,
hosted by me Khalia Gray and me Jess Cossovetto. Forgive
Me For I Have Followed is produced by Aaron Burlson
and Sophie Spencer Zavos.
Speaker 3 (36:25):
Our executive producers are Khalia Gray, myself Wulmar Balderama, Leo
Klam and Aaron Burlison at WV Sound.
Speaker 4 (36:32):
This episode was edited by Sean Tracy and features original
music by Madison Davenport and Halo Boy. For more podcasts
from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever
you listen to your favorite shows.
Speaker 3 (36:45):
See you next week, See you next week,
You have to decide which cult you're going to be
belonged to. Everybody who is not a loser isn't a cult.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Okay, only the losers are. They're not in cult.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
But everybody else who was like up and coming that
they got ambition, they want.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
To get on something with a life.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
They're on tour, they're working eight hours, ten hours, they
working at their craft, and they're devoted to that.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
They're in a cult.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
Welcome back to forgive me for I have followed. I'm
Jess Casavetto, executive producer of the Netflix series Dancing for
the Devil the Seven M TikTok Cult. This documentary series
explored the story of Robert Schin, the La based Chicaina
Church and Seven M Films. Shin founded Chicaina Church over
two decades ago before establishing Seven M Films and is
named in a civil lawsuit alleging abuse and cult like behavior.
Speaker 4 (01:01):
And I'm Kalia Gray, former member of Chakina Church and
Seven M Films.
Speaker 3 (01:05):
In this series, so far, we've spoken with ex Chakaina members,
family members of current members, a psychologist, social media journalists.
All of these folks painted such a broader picture of
Chicina and high controlled groups in general, and through the
process of this podcast so far, we've had plenty of
outreach from individuals in relation to Chkina, but also well
(01:25):
beyond specifically and other cult like environments, and their words
couldn't be ignored.
Speaker 4 (01:30):
Coming up in this next chapter, we're going to explore
some of the stories that we've heard and share with you.
We really created this platform for individuals that want to
shine a light on their experiences. But before we get
to our next chapter, we want to reflect on some
of the guests that we've had on and the people
that we have connected with so far, things that stood
(01:51):
out and you know, just moments in the conversations that
really resonated with us.
Speaker 3 (01:56):
Although we are going to be talking about other high
controlled groups, cult like environments, the door is open for
Chakaina members, ex members, current members, whoever wants to speak
when you feel ready. But to kick off this episode,
a couple episodes ago, Kalie and I were talking about
how there's a lot going on and we mentioned that
(02:17):
Alisha Lee has been posting on her social media stories
a countdown and sharing a lot of receipts. In addition
to that, Alicia has started to post a lot of
sermons from Robert and we would like to share some
of those. We did get permission from her to kind
(02:38):
of dive into that, but also to Kalia's point, it
does touch on some of those moments that we're going
to be reflecting on. One thing I did want to
also mention is that Alisha had shared that how in
these sermons, you're going to hear responses that are happening
from members of Chakaina that are responding to Robert with
(02:59):
hallelujah amens. And there's a lot of hate that's happening
on social media towards the dancers and those people that
they're dumb and how could they follow and what are
they thinking? And it's so clear. But when you're in
those type of environments and you're in those groups, I
think it's important for us to just lead with like
love and understanding and patience that it's going to have
(03:22):
to happen on their own time, and it can be
very easy for someone to engage in an environment like that.
You and Kevin had spoken a little bit about that
in Aubrey how sometimes these sermons are hours long, and
Aubrey mentioned at times like he doesn't even remember some
of it because they were so long, and he kind
of like I don't want to say, like he just
kind of blacked out, but like he was in the zone.
Speaker 4 (03:44):
I mean absolutely, And even while I'm hearing like some
of these sermons, I'm like, I think I was there
for that, but I can't be too sure. And it
kind of speaks to that, Like you said, hours long
and so many a week that and you do just
in a way tune it out, but it's just so
much information, not.
Speaker 5 (03:59):
All of it. It's going to be retained, and then
definitely hearing.
Speaker 4 (04:01):
It back after you realize how problematic it is, and
we feel it a bit of ourselves of like I
can't believe I was listening to this man, Like I
agree with you, like this does sound crazy, but while there,
it's hard to see the big picture of things. I've
seen some of the comments as well underneath and just
it's a level of like victim blaming, So you're making
(04:23):
the person responsible for the crime and the abuse that
they're experiencing instead of blaming the person that's actually doing
the abuse. And I think that can be very problematic
and it can drive people deeper into the cults when
they're seeing like.
Speaker 5 (04:37):
Oh, they're so stupid or they're so silly.
Speaker 4 (04:39):
It's like, well, I'm gonna dig my heels in and
just further believe what is going on.
Speaker 5 (04:44):
And I think it makes it more dangerous. And I understand.
Speaker 4 (04:47):
I feel like most people, we want to see people
leave and see the truth and like open their eyes
in a way. But being mean or nasty, not leading
with love and compassion, like you said, is not the
best way of doing that.
Speaker 3 (04:59):
I agree.
Speaker 4 (05:00):
Just as a disclaimer, if you've been in this world
in any other high control groups or cult like environments,
some of this may be triggering for you, so please
take care when listening. So with that being said, let's
get started. This first one that I pulled, it really
reminded me of our conversation with Aubrey and also doctor Gideon,
So let's take a listen to it and then we
(05:21):
can reflect on it together.
Speaker 1 (05:24):
I guess all these attentions because we are filled with
people are beautiful and successful. The annoying team makes us
beautiful and successful.
Speaker 2 (05:39):
Amen.
Speaker 1 (05:39):
You should see vict year and a half ago not
too good looking, Amen, but now he is because of
the nineteen Hallelujah. I said, Hellelujah. Even Miranda a couple
of years ago, you've seen her at all things like, Okay,
(06:00):
you know now she's beautiful and successful. Amen, Hellelijah. I
mean they call Aubrey handsome. Now he is, but before
he wasn't. What I always believe that anointing makes you.
Speaker 2 (06:26):
Attractive.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
It brings out the light in you. You know, everybody looks,
so I think with the best looking group in the
whole you know, in the whole world, and it's the
anointing that makes us good.
Speaker 2 (06:41):
Hallliah. Yeah, So that's why.
Speaker 1 (06:44):
Would be in the attack, because people are jealous, jealous
of our success, jealous of the glory that's in us.
And the Bible says where there's jealousy and self selfishness,
there's every evil thing.
Speaker 2 (06:59):
Jane chapter three or sixteen. I'm not gonna be it,
but you know I love you.
Speaker 3 (07:05):
One of the first things that stood out to me
is what we talked about in the tight Ises episode
when I mentioned that Kendra and Miranda were reflecting on
dying to themselves and they started to talk about their appearances.
And I just found that to be a little bit
jarring because one I thought that they looked beautiful in
(07:26):
those photos. But listening to this sermon, that was the
first thing that came to my mind is like, oh,
when you have someone sitting on the pulpit and also
very quickly going past the actual like Bible verse and
just reflecting on his own opinions, it hurt my heart
a little bit. It's just not right, and that starts
to like break a person down when you start to
(07:47):
think about your appearance and when your own pastor is
commenting on it, on whether or not you are ugly
or beautiful or successful, it's just jarring for me.
Speaker 4 (07:57):
I also had a lot of experience with that because
you know, I wasn't so one who was in like
social media and the limelight, and so I think I
was really made to feel like, oh, Khalia, you don't
need that makeup because that's not your career.
Speaker 5 (08:08):
You know, it would be like said in that way.
Speaker 4 (08:11):
But then there was a lot that just made me
feel very less than when it came to like all
of my friends and like the people who I was,
you know, there and around and like my colleagues. So
hearing it back, it just reminds me of those times
where it's like, oh, KHLEI, like, you don't have to
wear the brand new clothes. I know we have to
dress them up, but it's because they're in the limelight.
They need the attention to bring eyes on the Kingdom
(08:32):
of God. Is like what they would say there would
be like, you know, everyone is important, but you don't
necessarily have to look good, so feel blessed about that.
I think that was like kind of the sentiments that
I would feel. And even hearing him like go in
on Aubrey was really so disheartening because it's like the
way that he had said it too, like oh, even Aubrey, like,
(08:55):
what do you mean? Like, yeah, I had mentioned how
like we heard doctor Gideon say, we're often taught that
imperfection is the reflection of something that's really broken inside
of you. Yeah, And so hearing that, I was like, no,
that was an attempt at breaking people down, like saying
like you're imperfect, so you must be broken because everything
(09:16):
in the Kingdom of God is perfect, and you know
we're taught to be you have to be perfect, just
like just like Jesus, just like God, Like that's that's
what you're striving to be. And so I know she
had doctor Gideon had also mentioned that part of the
deprogramming is understanding that we are imperfect people and we
have to do like the best that we can, and
(09:37):
the best that we can is okay. Yeah, And so
I think that was something for me that I did
also have to deprogram a little bit or gain a
little bit of that confidence back that I feel was
taken from me while I was there.
Speaker 3 (09:49):
For sure, thank you for sharing that, Khaleak. So this
next sermon that we pulled. Obviously in the documentary, we
spoke a lot about Robert's system of giving tithing offering,
and in one of our episodes, Andrew so vulnerably and
openly talked about how much he was paid in the
flower shop and how he was going about tithing and
(10:12):
how again this has been going on for decades for Robert.
Speaker 2 (10:18):
Matthew Chapter thirteen, verse forty four. May even in heaven.
Speaker 4 (10:25):
It's like a treasure hidden.
Speaker 1 (10:28):
Again, okay, Kingdom of Heaven, what's it like?
Speaker 2 (10:34):
It's a hidden treasure? Okay? Continue and from.
Speaker 4 (10:41):
Joint over it he goes and stills all that he has.
Speaker 1 (10:46):
Okay, Kingdom of Heaven is a hidden treasure that has
a price, and you must buy you must pay for Yeah,
and that's that scripture tells us what the price is
that you've got.
Speaker 2 (11:01):
That's it. That's a price. Let's take a price, and
that's it. You buy it. You can buy it, or
you can't buy it. That's it.
Speaker 3 (11:08):
After hearing that sermon, that's obviously not a direct comment
about tiding, we have heard sermons like that where he says,
you know, you reap what you sew. What you give
is what you'll get back. And he is talking specifically
about finances, but curious on your take.
Speaker 4 (11:26):
Something that they have said since I first started going
there was that money is like the lowest form of commitment,
that's like level one.
Speaker 5 (11:33):
That should be like the easiest thing to give up.
Speaker 4 (11:36):
And so like when I hear sermons like this, and
to your point, like he is absolutely talking about financially,
because it's in almost every sermon, but it does go
deeper into like, but what else are you willing to
pay with your time, your family? What else are you
willing to sacrifice for the kingdom of God.
Speaker 3 (11:54):
It's a lot of pressure. It's like if you just
think about like work, if you're giving everything that you
have in the eight to twelve or however, many hours
that you're working and you know you're giving your all
and as much as you can, and someone comes in
and they say, hey, you're not working hard enough. And
for you, you're like, maybe the time that I'm committing here
(12:15):
in this church is all that I can give. That's
a lot of weight to put on a person. And
constantly instilling that mentality that you're not doing enough, you're
not giving enough, I could see how that could break
a person down if they're constantly being reminded of that.
Speaker 4 (12:32):
And it's also adding on to that level of expectations.
So of like what you should give, like like you said,
multiple sermons on it, but like so the dancers are
expected to basically give a total of fifty percent, so
twenty percent management fee is seven M, and then thirty
percent for like tithes and offerings and granted, like there
(12:53):
was a very strong expectation to give that. So there
are some people who gave way more, there are some
people who gave less, but like it was definitely like
a very heavily influenced expectation to where like if you're
not meeting this bare minimum, the idea is like, well
you must not be like Christian enough, you know, like
you said, like you're not doing enough, You're not giving enough.
(13:14):
Robert would say all the time that, like this is
an extreme church because we really want to enter the
Kingdom and the.
Speaker 5 (13:19):
Only way to enter heaven is to be extreme.
Speaker 4 (13:23):
And so what would be extreme is, oh, giving one
hundred percent of your income. And he would talk about
the people, specifically the people in that first row, so
like the mentors and the people who've been there for years,
that like they give it all. They I just give
them a little bit of allowance and they give it all.
Look at how dedicated they are. This is forgive me
for I have followed. We'll be right back.
Speaker 3 (13:48):
Welcome back to forgive me for I have followed. Now
back to our conversation.
Speaker 4 (13:55):
This next sermon is about cutting family, which is I
think one of the biggest catalysts into like getting the
story out and getting it into different people because of
how many people were losing contact with their kids and
with their family members to this group. So let's listen
to this sermon and then we can reflect on him
(14:16):
talking about cutting family.
Speaker 1 (14:18):
Cutting family, okay, is a privilege that you must earn, Okay, Otherwise,
if you cut their family. All it does is cause
us trouble.
Speaker 2 (14:33):
You get what I'm saying.
Speaker 1 (14:35):
That's something some of our mentors don't really understand. And
once I have to step is just you know, I
had to text mathe let them talk to parents.
Speaker 2 (14:47):
What are you doing? Right? So don't do that. It's
going to cause trouble because.
Speaker 1 (14:53):
People out there, they're not gonna understand separating yourself from
the world. They're not going to understand that. So you
got to do it in a way that they don't
even feel it.
Speaker 2 (15:04):
And see that.
Speaker 1 (15:06):
So far, you know, this problem, okay, is caused by Wilkins.
We handle it all wrong. Okay, It's a trouble that
we brought upon ourselves. That's why when I decided to
take over, is that I said, okay, dash Mr.
Speaker 2 (15:23):
You go and visit in Michigan. You got to be undercover.
Speaker 1 (15:27):
You know what undercover means they don't know that you're
cutting them. Once they know that you're cutting them, that
is wrong approach. You got to cut them without them
knowing that you're cutting them. That means you got to
meet with them.
Speaker 2 (15:41):
You got to talk to.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
Them, you know, way that they understand your friends everybody.
Speaker 2 (15:47):
Yeah, you follow me so far in the two point
zero your execution being terrible. Amen. It takes diligence to
be able.
Speaker 1 (15:59):
To cut your friends and family out in a way
that they don't even know that they didn't cut out,
because that's what the Bible says, right, separate yourself right right,
doing the word.
Speaker 2 (16:09):
But you do it lazy way. Oh I'm I'm just
gonna ignore them. Well you can't.
Speaker 1 (16:12):
You can't ignore speaking tickets, you can't ignore family.
Speaker 2 (16:15):
They're not gonna go away.
Speaker 1 (16:18):
All he does is bring attention, okay to the church,
and they're gonna attack me.
Speaker 2 (16:27):
I'm just sharing the word. What the word says, you know.
Speaker 1 (16:29):
I mean, the thing is not only you're supposed to
cut your family, you gotta cut yourself.
Speaker 4 (16:34):
The thing that really is irking me is all of
the sermons leading up to the sermon Robert had said
the exact opposite. And so when things started coming out
and started doing now all of a sudden, it was like,
oh no, no, no, no, like you guys were doing it
all wrong, like you should have been slowly doing it
to where they can't even tell He never that was
not what he would preach before that. It would be
(16:57):
like no, don't respond to them at all. Like I
remember there was one point on the pulpit where he
would like tell the story of someone was on the
phone with like their grandma, and he was like kind
of like mocking them.
Speaker 5 (17:07):
Like oh grandma, grandma.
Speaker 4 (17:09):
Like oh that he was saying, like, oh, it's so disgusting,
Like you're basically just saying like you care more about
your flesh family than God, and God should always be first.
So like that's kind of like why, I'm like, it's
so jarring that now all of a sudden, when you're
being called out, it's showing me that I think he's
just not used to having people that actually have like family,
(17:29):
have friends are in the spotlight because he would always
well I won't say always, but it seems like he
would be going after people who were immigrants, who didn't
have too much family, who weren't necessarily well off or from,
you know, families that are involved in their lives, and
so it was easier to get away with isolating people.
But now with this new group, it's like you're trying
(17:49):
to isolate people that are very involved in their communities,
very loved by their communities. That's why he had to
change his tune while like blaming the rest of us
for like following what he was saying in the first place.
Speaker 3 (18:02):
Leah was mentioning when we interviewed her, when Daniel cut
ties with his family. But I think that's something that
was like really telling, is that he's been doing this
for decades. You know, he's not getting the response that
he wants. You had loyal people like Daniel willing to
cut off their family, but they are still very close knit.
And then you have him just straight up calling the
(18:26):
Wilking family out in this sermon, which, as we know
at that time, that's when things really like shit hit
the fan. Everything started to come out. The Wilkings are
speaking out, they're doing their Instagram live, you have Katie
Joy posting comments where then Leah mentioned that she used
that platform to try to write a letter to her
(18:47):
brother to try to get attention, like there is so
much happening, which I believe is seemingly around this time
that starts to put the pressure on him. And so
when the pressure goes on him, he has to deflect
and put it on someone else, and that seemingly to
be Matthew and everyone else. Everyone else's fault, but his.
Speaker 4 (19:08):
Even just the fact that that is a big message
that he preaches often of like cutting family and like
even saying it's a privilege to cut family. And like
now that we're on the other end and we're seeing
the families that are affected, like we've had Megdalia, Melanie, Marilyn, Like,
oh my gosh, Marilyn's story of like how she's felt
(19:29):
that she's missed so much of her family's life, like
birthdays and parties and that time that you just don't
get back. It can be very devastating, and also the
relationships that like might never be the same.
Speaker 3 (19:40):
Oh yeah, and Amanda. I mean we read that letter
last week of from Amanda's father and that was from
decades ago. And so this has been an ongoing thing,
and I think obviously what Robert's dealing with now is
social media. Social media is like the thing that he
wanted to use to his benefit, which ultimately might be
the thing to take him down.
Speaker 4 (20:02):
And also just like even like you said, for now,
what's happening with Reino, where Reino has deleted his social
media and he's gone basically missed, like people aren't sure
where he is, Like the hashtag wears Reino. We've talked
about on here, but like it's that, I don't know,
cutting a family and now it's also just like cutting
off the world. It's really scary, you know. It makes
(20:24):
me really worry for the people that are still there. Yeah,
absolutely on that.
Speaker 3 (20:28):
When social media picked up this story and it got
out there, obviously, like that's when we became aware of
the story and we started to look into this deeper,
which I've mentioned many times, but that pressure that he's
feeling from social media, then it gets one step further.
He starts to feel the pressure from media. And it's
(20:49):
worth a listen on this one because he really takes
some time to talk about Netflix's stocks and where they're at,
and I'm like, I think they're doing just fine, but uh, yeah,
we can have a little listen.
Speaker 2 (21:02):
During this time, I had to.
Speaker 1 (21:05):
Write out my warfare prayer list. So I have my
notes and I do my prayer and then I put
it in front of me and.
Speaker 2 (21:15):
Then I speak it out daily.
Speaker 1 (21:19):
I had to plead the blood over you know, Sandwich
and her minions.
Speaker 2 (21:25):
Many extra Kin Church members.
Speaker 1 (21:28):
Specifically put out Wilkings family and family members of other
current Chicon church members, the dance community, and some of
the few people their medium production companies including HBO, Max, Netflix,
and I declared C and D cease and desist over them.
(21:49):
I declare stop communication between the opposing forces. And then
I confessed anyone that touches the annointy Annointed.
Speaker 2 (21:57):
Which shows I will suffer harm.
Speaker 3 (22:01):
This is a man of God that we're talking about,
and as a pastor, spreading harm and putting out that
narrative is so dangerous but also like reckless in my opinion,
Why would you not be praying for all of us
that are speaking against the quote unquote anointed and praying
for understanding and praying for acceptance or whatever it might be.
(22:25):
But to say that you want these people to suffer harm,
I guess for me, I just I feel for the
Wilkings during this one. Like knowing that your daughter is
sitting into that room knowing that this man is speaking
out saying that he wants harm against them. That's got
to be so hard for her to hear. And it's
got to be so hard for the Wilkings to have
(22:46):
to hear this sermon and the Rino's to hear this sermon.
I just feel for all the families that have been affected,
and we talked a little bit about this on a
previous episode, is that there's so many other people nig
Dhalia's episode and talking about the effects that it has
on family members, that one makes me a little bit angry.
Speaker 4 (23:05):
Absolutely, And to echo what you're saying, it really is
like against everything that the Bible, Like the Bible says
vengeance is the Lord's Like the Bible tells you you're
supposed to just love on people.
Speaker 5 (23:16):
You're supposed to just come from a.
Speaker 4 (23:18):
Place of understanding and compassion and like and you give
it to God ultimately that's what is supposed to happen.
And like, just hearing this back, it's like, wow, that's
not even in the word. Really, I don't know, Like
you said, wishing harm to people is not what we
should be hearing from spiritual figures.
Speaker 3 (23:36):
When we return the conclusion of our conversation, this is
forgive me for I have followed.
Speaker 4 (23:46):
Welcome back to forgive me for I have followed. Here's
the conclusion of our conversation. So we do have a
couple more excerpts of his sermons that we want to share,
and this next one he talks about Kendra and Bentley
deal that she had and he also calls out a
former member of the church.
Speaker 1 (24:07):
But as of two weeks ago, Okay, we're in a
place where God is moving upon our enemies, Amen, and
we shall see glory, and we are seeing glory being
manifested right now and the enemy's being stopped.
Speaker 2 (24:20):
We're in a different.
Speaker 1 (24:21):
Season now, Amen, We're in a season of glory right now,
and you're seeing his work coming before your eyes.
Speaker 2 (24:34):
I mean, small thing. I'll mentioned small things, Miranda, and
that that his.
Speaker 1 (24:42):
Ex wife was in social media talking about Dash apparently
apologize to you.
Speaker 2 (24:49):
Right and allowing him.
Speaker 1 (24:52):
To spend time with you know, Jaden and stuff like that,
and those things are just you know, small, but that's
not small. Miranda had a meeting with her parents and
Melanie the other day and then they got into an
argument about, you know, taking down posts about Instagram.
Speaker 2 (25:10):
Live, and then you know they Melanie.
Speaker 1 (25:15):
Refused to well, next day Instagram changed their algorithm and
their Instagram Live I think was taken down next day.
Speaker 2 (25:24):
Next day they just changed the thing.
Speaker 1 (25:27):
Still you can still find it, but you have to
scroll down and find it. But it's not in the
you know, Amen, Hallelujahliah, thank you Lord. And there's many
other things I don't want to mention because it's too controversial, Okay,
because I don't want people's oh passions said this. I
don't want you know, amen, even with Nda, some of
you just may do this Hallelujah, thank you Lord. And
(25:52):
during the same time because the glory, I mean, you know,
it's been a while sin since I said this, but
you know, Kendra had to deal with bet you know,
that was three months ago. It just disappeared, but Hannah
was able to revive it and now she's got a
Betley deal for twenty thousand dollars.
Speaker 3 (26:13):
It's a lot to unpack there. But just going back
to Angela's episode, that was one of my favorite conversations
that we had because she is such a strong woman
and a mother and at the end and everything that
she's gone through and whether it's like her own personal
anger or frustrations in a situation like she's always thinking
(26:35):
about her kids and putting her kids first and leading
with love and showing that as an example, and she
did it on the podcast that her hope is that
their families can unite, and that included Miranda and James
into her life, and so yes, was Angela speaking out
at that time, Yes, But also you know, I think
(26:58):
she expressed that it came in these waves, like one
second he's around, and then the next second James is gone,
and it's taking a toll. It's taken a toll on
her family. But I think really just appreciating her vulnerability
and honesty and for Jaden's encouragement for Angela to speak
(27:18):
with us and encouraging his mom to speak out. Yeah,
it's just a testament to the people that love those
that are still in Chicaina and a part of seven
m and hoping that if it ever gets back to them,
that that this could be more of a platform for
them to understand that this is coming from a place
of love, not from anger and hate.
Speaker 4 (27:40):
Right. I'm also seeing, like from what he was saying,
just a lot of kind of like floundering in a
way where he's trying to find like, oh, like, look
at how blessed we are because of Instagram changed their algorithm.
And you know, the video is not at the very
top of the page. You have to look for it,
and like because one of the big things that he
harps on is how like blessed that group is because
(28:01):
they have God's favor, And so I think like he's
trying to remind people, no, like, no, we still have
God's favor, So look at all of the.
Speaker 5 (28:07):
Small things that are really good and a big deal.
Speaker 4 (28:10):
And then you know, ending it with like Kendra and
her Bentley deal and how much money she made from that, like.
Speaker 5 (28:15):
See, we're still blessed.
Speaker 4 (28:16):
We still have the favor of God because we're still
getting these things. And so it's like just trying to
look for ways to be like, don't listen to what
the other people are saying. We're still blessed, right, And
then you know, it also just reminds me of like
just that it's not worth it if it's money, if
it's the feeling of connection, Like it's not worth what
people are being put through, what families are being put
(28:37):
through your life that you can like.
Speaker 5 (28:40):
Live outside of it.
Speaker 4 (28:42):
So I feel like if I had stayed there, the
things that God really wanted me to do, I wouldn't
have done. And so I felt like it was taking
me off of my personal spiritual path and what like
God has really put in my life. And so just
hearing him say those things. I'm like, you know, it's
it's not worth because you're actually giving up what God
really wants for you.
Speaker 3 (29:03):
To kind of close out this episode, when we are
listening to a previous sermon, Kalia, you mentioned extremes and
how in this group he uses extremes to justify certain things,
and in this last sermon, it's a bit of that
and him straight up saying we are a cult and
trying to justify these extremes. So we'll listen to it
(29:26):
and we can talk a little bit about it.
Speaker 1 (29:29):
You know, the world don't understand the process of sanctification.
Speaker 2 (29:33):
They don't value it. They don't know what it is.
Process of holiness.
Speaker 1 (29:40):
Okay, I know it, you know it.
Speaker 2 (29:44):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (29:46):
Part of the sanctification holiness is that you don't copy
the behaviors of the world, but the customer of this world. Okay, Amen,
So you know what to do that you have to
be so devoted, so committed.
Speaker 2 (30:00):
Isn't it follow follow the word?
Speaker 1 (30:03):
And the famous word comes up every time that comes up,
cult that church is cult.
Speaker 2 (30:09):
Well, Jesus is a cult. Yes, Amen.
Speaker 1 (30:15):
Anything that's devotional, anything that has excellent, anything that's.
Speaker 2 (30:22):
Worthwhile in the world.
Speaker 1 (30:23):
They're all cult music, dancing, acting, sports, educational, high finance, politics. Okay, Well,
there's religious cults like Mormonism, Hindu, Buddhism, Scientology. They're all cults,
and so is christian Real Christianity is also a cult. Okay,
(30:45):
all right, But so you have to you have to
decide which cult you're going to be belonged to. Everybody
who is not a loser isn't a cult. Okay, only
the losers are.
Speaker 2 (30:58):
They're not in cult.
Speaker 1 (30:59):
Yes, the couch potatoes and they watch Netflix and they
got their popcorns or potato chips all the time, and
they collect the unemployment check.
Speaker 2 (31:09):
They're not in cult, you know.
Speaker 1 (31:15):
But everybody else who's like up and coming, they got ambition,
they want to.
Speaker 2 (31:19):
Get on something with life.
Speaker 1 (31:21):
They're on tour, they're working eight hours, ten hours and
working at their craft, and they devoted to that.
Speaker 2 (31:26):
They're in a cult.
Speaker 3 (31:29):
So this kind of goes back to what I was
saying earlier, where like to me, when I listened to this,
I feel like he's trying to justify what's being put
out there. So social media blows up. There's all of
these articles and comments and all these things that are
being said about the group, and the word cult starts
to get thrown around a lot, and now he's trying
(31:52):
to use it as like a positive. He's trying to
flip the script for people to say, it's not a
bad thing to be in a cult.
Speaker 5 (31:59):
Everybody a cult.
Speaker 3 (32:00):
Everybody's in a cult unless you eat potato chips and
watch Netflix, which by the way, I do and I'm
not unemployed. But that's okay too, if that's where you're
at in your life. But I'm hearing it so clearly
as a manipulative tool to like flip the narrative to
work in his favor. And he's using again these extremes
(32:22):
to justify the statements that are being made about him
and about the church and about his members and followers.
Speaker 4 (32:29):
It just makes me feel like he knows what he's doing, because,
like you said, it's kind of pacifying that, like, yeah,
they're saying in a cult, but like everyone's in a cult.
Speaker 5 (32:38):
This is a cult.
Speaker 4 (32:38):
That's a cult, And I think it's really important being
able to discern the difference between what is a cult
and what is not a cult.
Speaker 3 (32:45):
Yeah, again, I feel like he's trying to normalize the word.
He's trying to make it seem okay. But then as
you get out of a group like that, you know,
in Amanda's episode, that process of trusting again, when you
are so willfully believeing what someone is saying and the
conversations that are being had, you have to learn to
trust God again and separate Robert from actual Christianity. What
(33:09):
is the truth? And that whole deeprogramming process is its
own struggle for people, And so very much appreciate Amanda
sharing her experience of that.
Speaker 4 (33:20):
I really do draw parallels from what Amanda was talking
about to like things that Kevin is experiencing, where like,
you know, I'm grateful that he's like, you know, I
still believe in God, I still trust God, but he
very much is like, but I don't trust the church.
Speaker 5 (33:33):
I don't trust like people in a church. I don't
trust church buildings.
Speaker 4 (33:36):
And it's like, especially because of all of the things
that has happened, like from the first church that Crump
was a part of the hospitality and then into Chicaina
and seven m Kevin has said multiple there's no way
I'm stepping foot in another church building, And so it
gives like Christianity and religion a very bad name, because
there are people who are out there promoting and parading
(33:58):
as like real t true Christians, like we talked about
Robert mentioning like ch Kina is an extremist church, like
we are the real Christians. You know. That's where it
gets so like convoluted and like messy as far as
like being able.
Speaker 5 (34:12):
To deprogram, like what was Robert?
Speaker 4 (34:13):
And like this bad person versus what do I actually
believe when it comes to my spiritual walk and my
spiritual journey?
Speaker 3 (34:20):
Well, really want to think every single person that has
shared their story with us so far and been so
open and vulnerable and honest about their experience, and for
those that have experienced other high controlled groups that have
reached out to us, that have been in our dms
and have shared their experiences. We look forward to the
(34:42):
next chapter of creating this space for you all as well,
and learning about other groups and maybe finding a way
that we can find healing in this process and potential justice.
That's what we want to continue to do. Forgive me.
Speaker 4 (35:01):
I'm also looking forward to this next chapter because I
feel like it's going to help I think transmute a
lot of like the trauma that I've gone through and
like it reminds me that I was able to pull
something out of it that is positive and that can
make a change, and not just people related to this group,
but other groups that have gone through something similar and
that want to share their stories and deserve to share
(35:23):
their stories. And so I'm really looking forward to continue
to build this platform for those people.
Speaker 5 (35:29):
And it really reminds me that.
Speaker 4 (35:31):
It's okay, Like you did go through this, but it's okay,
and you can build something better out of it and
something that can make a positive impact on others.
Speaker 3 (35:49):
Thank you, Alicia for sharing these sermons with everyone and
your countdown. And like we said previously, the Lee's sisters
are going to be starting their podcast, so do please
follow at seven m TikTok cult on Instagram for updates
and for when they drop their podcast.
Speaker 4 (36:11):
Forgive Me For I Have Followed is a production from
WV Sound, Dirty Robert and iHeartMedia's Michael Tora podcast Network,
hosted by me Khalia Gray and me Jess Cossovetto. Forgive
Me For I Have Followed is produced by Aaron Burlson
and Sophie Spencer Zavos.
Speaker 3 (36:25):
Our executive producers are Khalia Gray, myself Wulmar Balderama, Leo
Klam and Aaron Burlison at WV Sound.
Speaker 4 (36:32):
This episode was edited by Sean Tracy and features original
music by Madison Davenport and Halo Boy. For more podcasts
from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever
you listen to your favorite shows.
Speaker 3 (36:45):
See you next week, See you next week,
Hosts And Creators
Jessica Acevedo
Kailea Gray
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