December 12, 2024 • 26 mins
In this episode, investigative journalist Sarah Berman (Author of Don’t Call It a Cult: The Shocking Story of Keith Raniere and the Women of NXIVM) discusses her reporting on NXIVM and cults. She shares insights into the emotional and ethical challenges of working with survivors, the evolving language around cults, and offers advice on spotting red flags. Sarah also addresses the legal hurdles cults face and what needs to change to better protect victims and hold organizations accountable.
Forgive Me For I Have Followed continues the exploration from Netflix’s hit Dancing for the Devil documentary series by delving deeper into the personal stories of those affected by Robert Shinn, Shekinah Church, and 7M Films. We will focus on the experiences of victims and their families, address urgent questions raised in the documentary, and gather insights from former members and dancers. Our goal is to uncover strategies for combating abuse and ensuring that controlling, cult-like communities are held accountable for their actions.
*The following is based on actual events. Certain composite and representative materials and characters have been used for dramatic purposes.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Clearly everything was done under his direction, and so that's
how you got more than ten crimes under his watch,
and he was convicted on all of them and now
serves one hundred and twenty years in federal prison.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Welcome back to forgive me for I have followed. I'm
Jess Cossavetto, executive producer of the Netflix series Dancing for
the Devil. The Seven M TikTok Cult. This documentary series
explored the story of Robert Schinn, the LA based Chakaina
Church in seven M Films. Shin founded LA based Chicaina
Church over two decades ago before establishing seven M Films
and is named in a civil lawsuit alleging abuse and
(00:46):
cult like behavior.
Speaker 3 (00:47):
And I'm Kalia Gray, former member of Chakaina Church and
seven M Films. In this episode, investigative journalist Sarah Berman,
author of Don't Call It a Cult, The Shocking Story
of Keith Rinier and The Woman of Nexium, discussed this
is her end depth reporting on Nexium, the controversial group
led by Keith Renier, and her broader work on cult
like organizations. Sarah shares insights from her early exposure to
(01:10):
cult related investigations, including her coverage of the bountiful polygamous
community in British Columbia and the challenges of exposing harmful high.
Speaker 4 (01:18):
Control group dynamics.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
Now our conversation with Sarah Burman. Sarah Burman, thank you
for joining us today. I have so many questions for
(01:41):
you having done such a deep dive into NEXIAM, and
I think also using the RICO charges is something that
I really have a lot of questions about, just because
as you know, there's ongoing investigation, there is an ongoing
lawsuit with Chicaina and Robert and some of the other
leaders in that organization. But excited to explore that a
little bit further, and then talking more about the difficulties
(02:03):
about prosecuting cults in the US and your experience with
that having gone so deep into a nexim amazing.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
Thank you for having me, And yeah, I'm happy to
give however much perspective on that stuff that I can,
because it is, you know, so rare for criminal action
at least to be taken in cases with groups like this.
Speaker 3 (02:25):
Yeah, and that's something that we're finding increasingly difficult in
the beginning, and now that we're in the middle.
Speaker 4 (02:30):
Of like a legal process.
Speaker 3 (02:32):
I am realizing how hard it can be because I'm
getting to hear like the nitty gritty of what we
can try and what we cannot try.
Speaker 4 (02:39):
In the courtroom.
Speaker 3 (02:40):
And so for me, I'm like, you know, while we're
in the middle of a civil lawsuit, that's one of
my bigger questions is, well, how do we get a
criminal case involved in it? Because it just feels like
there's so much criminal activity to where we're like, this
has to be illegal at some point. So I am
also looking forward to hearing more about your experiences. Let's
kind of take it back to the beginning. Can you
(03:01):
walk us through your initial exposure to cult like groups
and environments, particularly with your twenty sixteen coverage of the
Bountiful polygamous community in British Columbia.
Speaker 4 (03:11):
What was that like for you?
Speaker 1 (03:13):
So I went to Bountiful, which is this as you say,
polygamous community in BC, Canada, back when I was an
early reporter for ad Vice It was pretty early in
my career, and we were greeted by these women who
dressed in prairie dresses. They covered everything to their wrist,
covered up to their neck, and they greeted us very
(03:36):
warmly and had a lot of really interesting things to say.
I know now that they were sort of putting on
a front. You know, they were protecting their dad, who
was the leader of this community, Winston Blackmore. They were
sort of doing some pr for them, but they were
trying to demonstrate that they were truly free and autonomous
(03:57):
and really active members in their community. They were active
on the land trust in the community. They could drink wine.
They were not the polygamists that I maybe had envisioned
in my head.
Speaker 4 (04:09):
And that was interesting.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
It was persuasive to me in the moment because of course,
when someone's freely speaking to you and showing you all
that they do for their own community and how it
means something to them, and how they get so much
empowerment from that.
Speaker 4 (04:25):
You can't not take that at its face. You know.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
It's really hard to in the background while you're hearing that,
think what else am I not seeing here?
Speaker 4 (04:36):
Right?
Speaker 1 (04:37):
Like what other sort of controls are in place? You know?
Of course I did have in my mind that there
was a legal case in some parents in this community
had been convicted of child trafficking, so they had taken
their thirteen year old across the border to be married
to Warren Jeff's the now jailed leader of the FLDS.
Speaker 4 (04:58):
So I did have that in the back of my
my mind, but.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
It's such a distance from their real lived experience, and
that just got me asking so many questions about, you know,
how can those two truths exist? How do they personally
reconcile with those questions? Can they even imagine what an
outsider is seeing and understanding? You know, when they say
(05:24):
I'm a feminist because I drive the truck around our community,
you know, do they know how that sounds? And like,
can I, as an outsider understand it too from the
inside because it's so wild and upside down? Right? So
that was my first cult. You know a lot of
people do use that. It's pretty accurate in that case.
(05:45):
And yeah, ever since, I've sort of sought out those
stories again, just trying to wrestle with those same questions
about like, what's going on here?
Speaker 4 (05:54):
How do they understand it?
Speaker 1 (05:55):
How does this exist in everyone's mind palace.
Speaker 3 (06:01):
After the break, we continue our conversation with Sarah.
Speaker 4 (06:04):
This is forgive me for I have followed. We'll be
right back.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
Welcome back to forgive me for I have followed. Now
back to our conversation with Sarah Sarah. In your book,
Don't Call It a Cult, you explore the Nextsem case
in detail, what made Nextim different from bout ful other
cult like organizations that you have investigated in the past,
and how did the use of RICO charges play a
(06:32):
role into bringing Keith Rnieri and his associates to justice.
Speaker 1 (06:37):
Nexium was interesting, at least on the surface, it looked
very different. You didn't have prairie dresses or you didn't
have shaved head hippies, you didn't have outsiders even right.
You had very well connected actresses who were pillars of
their own communities, and you know, had idealist sort of
(06:57):
points of view, wanted to change the world, although that
is sort of common in cults too, to want to
change the world. But they were wearing power suits and
they were talking about business and being self sufficient, and
so those ideas weren't on the surface very much associated
with cults. And then, of course, below the surface, Nexium
(07:18):
is extremely, i guess exceptional in that you had blackmail
and bondage and branding and trafficking. You know, you had
a woman trapped in a room for two years under
extreme threat, and of course child exploitation as well, so
that is extreme. A lot of cult groups they take money,
(07:40):
they of course do all sorts of morally abhorrent things,
but it's not as plain or extreme in the criminal sense.
So the Racketeering Act in the United States was brought
in at the time of al Capone and the Mob,
and basically it's a racketeering enterprise. So you're criminal organization
(08:01):
committing lots of different crimes, and so the acts sort
of need to be committed by at least two members individually,
and it's a way to prosecute a leader, you know,
say your al Capone type figure, for things that clearly
were assigned at least that's usually how it goes. And
so I think a group like Nexium, it's very applicable.
Speaker 4 (08:25):
Right, you have a group leader.
Speaker 1 (08:28):
He wasn't necessarily undertaking all of the acts, but clearly
everything was done under his direction, and so that's how
you got more than ten crimes under his watch, and
he was convicted on all of them and now serves
one hundred and twenty years in federal prison. But the
(08:48):
trial itself was just six weeks of very detailed evidence,
and you could tell that this was very hard they
weren't sure that they were going to land this case
even though there was just such obvious evidence of exploitation.
Speaker 4 (09:04):
You also did have.
Speaker 1 (09:05):
So many people who at the time were very willing
on record in emails saying I want this, you know, master,
please brand me right. They filmed these as sort of
evidence to the contrary. And so when you have folks
who have had a big change in their understanding right
(09:26):
like years ago they saw this as good now they
see it as a crime, that does give the defense
a lot of fuel to sort of poke at their credibility.
And it's just very embarrassing and shameful for a witness
to have to go through that on the stand. And
so prosecutors in general are sort of scared of these
(09:46):
cases because their witnesses are likely going to be dragged
through a lot of mud. And so I've seen in
the cases that I've covered a reluctance to kind of
take action that way.
Speaker 3 (10:01):
Well, absolutely, and I can imagine that makes it really
challenging for the authorities and for the people just trying
to persecute it. Even in our case, there are a
lot of my friends who had left to kinda still
having an issue like coming forward or wanting to take
a stand because of that aspect of being dragged through
the mud and having to retell these accounts where at
(10:21):
the time it seemed one way, but now we are
feeling a completely different way, and also even just like
having a different understanding as far as to the truth
behind what was being told to us in that moment.
Speaker 4 (10:32):
Totally, it takes so much bravery.
Speaker 1 (10:35):
You have to really understand your truth, and you know
that takes a lot of healing, right, and so sometimes
this takes years to actually come to that understanding, and
so when police are trying to take action, that might
not be there for them right away, and so these
cases kind of get bogged down and delayed, and the
(10:57):
families who think they have pretty fear of it and
so say fraud or what have you, they get pretty frustrated,
pretty disappointed. So in any case like this, it's a tough,
uphill battle. And then of course you have legal action
in the opposite way, right you have sometimes a cult
leader going after their ex members, you know, for defamation
(11:19):
for speaking out, and that too is silencing. Yeah, it's
just a really tough time for anyone.
Speaker 2 (11:26):
Which has actually been an ongoing fear throughout the process.
With conversations that we've had with different victims and people
that have left and ex members, it always goes back
to the fear that they will be sued by Robert.
It's something that he's used. It's a power that he
has over people. And similar to what you were saying
with Nexxim, when you have blackmail, coordion, and manipulation, it's
(11:49):
difficult because there is a little bit of when the
victim becomes the perpetrator. So there's that element, and I
think that there's that processing of deprogramming and healing that
needs to have and when someone leaves a situation and
maybe comes to the understanding that maybe they were a
perpetrator in ways or we're feeding into a negative system.
(12:09):
But then also you have the dangling carrots. We just
had a gentleman that had left on our last episode
and he had expressed how he was undocumented. He was
an immigrant to this country and his green card was
something that they were holding over his head and when
they provide him work and shelter and a roof over
(12:31):
his head and food. It's hard to get people to
speak out. It's hard to get people to feel that
they can have any sort of power when that power
is given to a leader, a pastor a manager. So
it was hard to hear these stories and feel that
these people feel powerless. And again, as an outsider, it's
(12:52):
easy for us to say, like, get out there and
go do it, go to the police and share your story.
Speaker 4 (12:57):
But when you've lived.
Speaker 2 (12:58):
It and you deal with that trauma, it takes time
and you have to earn that trust, and that needs
to come from them and it can't be coming from
anybody else except for when they feel ready.
Speaker 1 (13:09):
Yeah, and what you talked about there about the sort
of I guess wager you have to make between the
access of course you were given so much in the group.
I think Chakaina is an interesting example in that regard,
because people really did get influencer careers, you know, like
the carrot was real in this case. Often with cults,
(13:29):
it's pretty fake, you know, none of the next even
people made millions of dollars, even though that's what the
executive success programs claimed to do. So yeah, it would
be even harder to untangle if you really did get
work and room and bored and the things outweighing that
are just as bad.
Speaker 4 (13:49):
But it's just harder to untangle that not.
Speaker 2 (13:54):
When we return the conclusion to our conversation with Sarah,
this is forgive me for I have followed.
Speaker 4 (14:04):
Welcome back to forgive me for I have followed.
Speaker 3 (14:06):
Here's the conclusion of our conversation with Sarah. Can you
share some more of the personal challenges you faced while
working on the Nixium story, especially balancing the need for
rigorous reporting and then considering the vulnerable aspect of the
survivors you were working with.
Speaker 1 (14:24):
I was honestly learning as I went, you know, and
some of the things that I was doing at that time,
I don't know if I would do it again, because,
as you say, people are healing, they don't necessarily need
a reporter coming at them. Certainly with Sarah Edmondson, I
did notice eight months later she had a clearer perspective,
like she had her thoughts together more, she was less
(14:48):
in the trauma of it. And I think that space
for healing is so so important.
Speaker 4 (14:56):
I mean, one of.
Speaker 1 (14:57):
The challenges was just that everybody lawyered up and got
very quiet for a while while the FBI case was unfolding,
and so often I was seeking out folks who were
not involved in that at all, you know, who are
just local to Vancouver, who maybe didn't have as key
a role in the crimes I guess that were prosecuted,
(15:20):
and that really gave me more of a sense of Wow,
this was a you know, very nuanced community, like the
one to one relationships between you know, the women in
particular in this group, they were real, which is why
I sort of avoided the sort of sex cult tabloid
type approach. You know, I didn't even use in my
(15:42):
book the words sex cults, just because it's a shorthand
for an outsider. Yes, and sometimes it's useful, you know,
like I'm not gonna say sex wasn't part of this group,
but it just doesn't fully describe, you.
Speaker 4 (15:56):
Know, what's going on here.
Speaker 1 (15:57):
What are those bonds between women and of course how
Keith R. Nieri was exploiting those. So again, just a
lot of learning as I go. And then when I
covered a different group called Twin Flames Universe after Nexium,
I tried to apply some of that learning. But then
once again you had a cult leader going.
Speaker 4 (16:18):
After my sources, trying to sue them.
Speaker 1 (16:21):
Thankfully that case was thrown out, and so now I
just am trying to inform any of my sources all
of the possible outcomes right up front, because truly it
is a threat, like these groups are dangerous and they
can come after you.
Speaker 2 (16:39):
How do you cope with the emotional toll when you're
investigating these heavy topics like twin Flame Universe. Obviously I'd
watched the documentary Nexium. I'd also watched all the documentary
and did some research on that. How do you cope
with that emotionally?
Speaker 1 (16:54):
Yeah, I mean I'd like to ask you the same question,
because you know, we're all trying to find out And
of course, of course I don't want to put my
experience on the same level as the survivors who have
been through a truly traumatic experience and they do sort of.
Speaker 4 (17:09):
Wear this for the rest of their lives in a
very public way.
Speaker 1 (17:13):
But yeah, I just try to find folks like yourselves
who have been through this very rare, I think experience,
and you know, just sort of hash it out and
try to make adjustments.
Speaker 4 (17:25):
Unfortunately, after or maybe.
Speaker 1 (17:27):
Fortunately, I don't know how to look at this, but
after that Twin Flames documentary, so many people reached out
to me and said, you know, I see my sister
in this group.
Speaker 4 (17:37):
I see my aunt in this group.
Speaker 1 (17:40):
You know, when I was younger, I was in a
group and I didn't really think of it as that
at the time, But now I had this new insight,
you know, and keep on kicking cults and the teeth
or whatever or they say, you know, like.
Speaker 4 (17:53):
It's not a cook.
Speaker 1 (17:54):
But you know, my AA sponsor did some of these
things to me, you know, so so kind of dark.
You know, it's hard to hold all of those things
in your heart and you know, make space for them.
So I do try to write back whenever I can.
It's not always possible, but I think that's the only
way forward, is to sort of reflect and connect and
(18:17):
figure it out sort of as a collective.
Speaker 2 (18:19):
Absolutely, and I can relate to that because I agree
it was always hard to process and talk about it,
because when you're going through something emotional and you're dealing
with such heavy topics, you don't ever want to put
your difficulties on the same level of what they are
going through, because I don't think it equates either. But
it also doesn't discount our feelings and emotions and what
(18:42):
we're taking on. And I think with Chakaina and with
our project, we were dealing with trauma in real time,
and so Khalia and the dancers they had gotten out
weeks prior to our conversations, and when we started to
roll camera it was is very fresh. And then months
(19:02):
later when Alisha got out, that was a different process
and she was actually just speaking with Derek. So it
was just Derek the director and Alicia sometimes in a
room because it was so heavy, and throughout the process
it just took an emotional toll on all of us
because we started to develop these relationships and you start
(19:24):
to get invested in a different way, but really you're
also trying to navigate doing a job while experiencing all
of these emotions, and then you just have your own
personal lives and your career that is separate from this group.
It was very heavy, but I really appreciate you vocalizing
that it's just not on the same scale. So how
(19:45):
do you navigate that and who do you talk to
about it? Because by no means do I ever want
my experience to ever overshadow what the topic is and
what anyone else experienced.
Speaker 1 (19:55):
With Sarah Edmondson, I was lucky enough to be able
to keep some of our you know, meetings fairly light,
like we would have lunch, we would go for a walk,
we would wash something on TV. So it wasn't one
hundred percent just you know, extracting traumatic information. And in
that sense, you know, in my personal life as well,
I really tried to make space too.
Speaker 4 (20:17):
I took up boxing while reporting that book.
Speaker 1 (20:20):
Just really needed all kinds of different outlets and like
all kinds of distractions to just sort of not.
Speaker 4 (20:26):
Fall too far down the rabbit hole.
Speaker 2 (20:28):
Mine was crocheting, Okay, yeah, something with your hands.
Speaker 3 (20:33):
You know, I don't know what it will be for
me yet, but I will find my thing.
Speaker 4 (20:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (20:38):
Do you have any other advice on having that balance
between because that's sometimes where even just friends of mine,
where I'm like, I want to respect the trauma that
you went through, but I also want to get justice
for what we have gone through together.
Speaker 1 (20:51):
Well, similar to what I was saying about, you know,
meeting folks where they're at, you know, like not necessarily
always being on the just this topic, right, you know,
being able to do some third thing, being able to
meet in a you know, not related to Chakaina context, right,
but still having that sort of together feeling because we're
(21:14):
all humans, we're all trying to just like live a life,
and I think creating those spaces and actually the filmmakers
on the Netflix series about Twin Flames Universe very good
for that as well. You know, on the one year
anniversary which just happened in November, you know, they brought
everyone back together just to be in each other's company,
(21:35):
just to have dinner.
Speaker 4 (21:36):
That kind of thing is really important.
Speaker 2 (21:39):
So Sarah, looking ahead, what charges need to happen in
the legal system to make it easier to prosecute cults
like organizations and also to support the victims who come forward.
Speaker 1 (21:51):
I mean, it's hard to say, because no matter what,
in the trial system that we have today, there's going
to be that credibility. The witnesses are going to be
on the stand and the defense is going to be
able to show them a lot of times where they
consented and were happily singing the praises of the group.
(22:11):
So that aspect, yes, you can go in with more information,
you can be sort of armed with the experience of
you know, folks that have come before. I know in
the UK they do have stronger laws around undue influence
and so there could be some legal mechanisms that make
(22:32):
the manipulation tactics that happening called an actual crime. So
there's some stuff to look at around that. I think
with groups that are online that are very international, it's
very hard to know what jurisdiction to go after. Right
when Flames Universe, they're based in Michigan the couple, but
the Michigan local police weren't interested because most of the
(22:56):
people who were harmed aren't in Michigan. Either the FBI
has to take it on or some other jurisdiction. So
some clarity around that stuff would also probably.
Speaker 3 (23:07):
Help to kind of switch gears a little bit. Is
there any advice that you would like to give to
people who are either in a cult like environment in
questioning things or have recently left in our very early
on on their healing journey and process on.
Speaker 1 (23:22):
The ladder, you know someone who's just recently out, It's
fine to go slow. You don't have to jump into
media spotlight. You don't have to fix everything or answer
every question.
Speaker 4 (23:35):
It's fine to just sleep a lot, spend.
Speaker 1 (23:38):
Time with the people you love, you know, maybe get
a pet, right like, those things seem to help you know,
just time, because if you're just sting on the same
questions all the time. I've seen that, and it just
sometimes makes folks reactive. They don't trust anyone, you know,
Like it's a hard, hard mental state to live in.
(24:00):
And yeah, like I think the questioning stage lasts a
really long time. So when you're not quite out but
you're questioning, it doesn't have to be resolved quickly either, right,
And I think if you're unsure, just go to someone
you trust, try to talk it out. Hopefully that person
is very open minded and isn't trying to immediately judge
(24:23):
or say, of course, that guy's a jerk, that guy's
a cult leader. Find someone who will listen, who will
struggle through your questions in a respectful way. That was
definitely something I tried to cultivate as an interviewer. Was
not imposing some outside reality on them and really letting
(24:43):
them speak their own world into existence. So not you know,
saying he's a manipulator even out the gate if that's
not their understanding at the time, and questions will be answered,
it just does sometimes take a really long time.
Speaker 2 (25:09):
We'd like to thank Sarah for sharing her invaluable insight
into the world of cults. From her early reporting and
bountiful to the complexities of prosecuting organizations like NEXIM. Her
first hand experience in navigating the emotional, ethical, and legal
challenges of working with survivors provides a powerful perspective on
this crucial issue. Sarah, we truly appreciate you taking the
(25:29):
time to share your knowledge with us, and we look
forward to continuing to follow your investigations.
Speaker 4 (25:37):
This is Forgive Me For I Have Followed. We'll be
back soon.
Speaker 3 (25:40):
Forgive Me For I Have Followed as a production from
wv Sound, Dirty Robert and iHeartMedia's Michael tore podcast network.
Speaker 2 (25:47):
Hosted by me Khalia Gray and me Jessicasovetto.
Speaker 3 (25:51):
Forgive Me For I Have Followed is produced by Aaron
Burlson and Sophie Spencer Zavos.
Speaker 2 (25:55):
Our executive producers are Kalia Gray, myself, Wulmar Valderrama, Leo
Klam and Aaron Burlison at wv Sound.
Speaker 3 (26:02):
This episode was edited by Sean Tracy and features original
music by Madison Davenport and Halo Boy. For more podcasts
from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever
you listen to your favorite shows.
Speaker 2 (26:15):
See you next week.
Speaker 4 (26:15):
See you next week.
Clearly everything was done under his direction, and so that's
how you got more than ten crimes under his watch,
and he was convicted on all of them and now
serves one hundred and twenty years in federal prison.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Welcome back to forgive me for I have followed. I'm
Jess Cossavetto, executive producer of the Netflix series Dancing for
the Devil. The Seven M TikTok Cult. This documentary series
explored the story of Robert Schinn, the LA based Chakaina
Church in seven M Films. Shin founded LA based Chicaina
Church over two decades ago before establishing seven M Films
and is named in a civil lawsuit alleging abuse and
(00:46):
cult like behavior.
Speaker 3 (00:47):
And I'm Kalia Gray, former member of Chakaina Church and
seven M Films. In this episode, investigative journalist Sarah Berman,
author of Don't Call It a Cult, The Shocking Story
of Keith Rinier and The Woman of Nexium, discussed this
is her end depth reporting on Nexium, the controversial group
led by Keith Renier, and her broader work on cult
like organizations. Sarah shares insights from her early exposure to
(01:10):
cult related investigations, including her coverage of the bountiful polygamous
community in British Columbia and the challenges of exposing harmful high.
Speaker 4 (01:18):
Control group dynamics.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
Now our conversation with Sarah Burman. Sarah Burman, thank you
for joining us today. I have so many questions for
(01:41):
you having done such a deep dive into NEXIAM, and
I think also using the RICO charges is something that
I really have a lot of questions about, just because
as you know, there's ongoing investigation, there is an ongoing
lawsuit with Chicaina and Robert and some of the other
leaders in that organization. But excited to explore that a
little bit further, and then talking more about the difficulties
(02:03):
about prosecuting cults in the US and your experience with
that having gone so deep into a nexim amazing.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
Thank you for having me, And yeah, I'm happy to
give however much perspective on that stuff that I can,
because it is, you know, so rare for criminal action
at least to be taken in cases with groups like this.
Speaker 3 (02:25):
Yeah, and that's something that we're finding increasingly difficult in
the beginning, and now that we're in the middle.
Speaker 4 (02:30):
Of like a legal process.
Speaker 3 (02:32):
I am realizing how hard it can be because I'm
getting to hear like the nitty gritty of what we
can try and what we cannot try.
Speaker 4 (02:39):
In the courtroom.
Speaker 3 (02:40):
And so for me, I'm like, you know, while we're
in the middle of a civil lawsuit, that's one of
my bigger questions is, well, how do we get a
criminal case involved in it? Because it just feels like
there's so much criminal activity to where we're like, this
has to be illegal at some point. So I am
also looking forward to hearing more about your experiences. Let's
kind of take it back to the beginning. Can you
(03:01):
walk us through your initial exposure to cult like groups
and environments, particularly with your twenty sixteen coverage of the
Bountiful polygamous community in British Columbia.
Speaker 4 (03:11):
What was that like for you?
Speaker 1 (03:13):
So I went to Bountiful, which is this as you say,
polygamous community in BC, Canada, back when I was an
early reporter for ad Vice It was pretty early in
my career, and we were greeted by these women who
dressed in prairie dresses. They covered everything to their wrist,
covered up to their neck, and they greeted us very
(03:36):
warmly and had a lot of really interesting things to say.
I know now that they were sort of putting on
a front. You know, they were protecting their dad, who
was the leader of this community, Winston Blackmore. They were
sort of doing some pr for them, but they were
trying to demonstrate that they were truly free and autonomous
(03:57):
and really active members in their community. They were active
on the land trust in the community. They could drink wine.
They were not the polygamists that I maybe had envisioned
in my head.
Speaker 4 (04:09):
And that was interesting.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
It was persuasive to me in the moment because of course,
when someone's freely speaking to you and showing you all
that they do for their own community and how it
means something to them, and how they get so much
empowerment from that.
Speaker 4 (04:25):
You can't not take that at its face. You know.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
It's really hard to in the background while you're hearing that,
think what else am I not seeing here?
Speaker 4 (04:36):
Right?
Speaker 1 (04:37):
Like what other sort of controls are in place? You know?
Of course I did have in my mind that there
was a legal case in some parents in this community
had been convicted of child trafficking, so they had taken
their thirteen year old across the border to be married
to Warren Jeff's the now jailed leader of the FLDS.
Speaker 4 (04:58):
So I did have that in the back of my
my mind, but.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
It's such a distance from their real lived experience, and
that just got me asking so many questions about, you know,
how can those two truths exist? How do they personally
reconcile with those questions? Can they even imagine what an
outsider is seeing and understanding? You know, when they say
(05:24):
I'm a feminist because I drive the truck around our community,
you know, do they know how that sounds? And like,
can I, as an outsider understand it too from the
inside because it's so wild and upside down? Right? So
that was my first cult. You know a lot of
people do use that. It's pretty accurate in that case.
(05:45):
And yeah, ever since, I've sort of sought out those
stories again, just trying to wrestle with those same questions
about like, what's going on here?
Speaker 4 (05:54):
How do they understand it?
Speaker 1 (05:55):
How does this exist in everyone's mind palace.
Speaker 3 (06:01):
After the break, we continue our conversation with Sarah.
Speaker 4 (06:04):
This is forgive me for I have followed. We'll be
right back.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
Welcome back to forgive me for I have followed. Now
back to our conversation with Sarah Sarah. In your book,
Don't Call It a Cult, you explore the Nextsem case
in detail, what made Nextim different from bout ful other
cult like organizations that you have investigated in the past,
and how did the use of RICO charges play a
(06:32):
role into bringing Keith Rnieri and his associates to justice.
Speaker 1 (06:37):
Nexium was interesting, at least on the surface, it looked
very different. You didn't have prairie dresses or you didn't
have shaved head hippies, you didn't have outsiders even right.
You had very well connected actresses who were pillars of
their own communities, and you know, had idealist sort of
(06:57):
points of view, wanted to change the world, although that
is sort of common in cults too, to want to
change the world. But they were wearing power suits and
they were talking about business and being self sufficient, and
so those ideas weren't on the surface very much associated
with cults. And then, of course, below the surface, Nexium
(07:18):
is extremely, i guess exceptional in that you had blackmail
and bondage and branding and trafficking. You know, you had
a woman trapped in a room for two years under
extreme threat, and of course child exploitation as well, so
that is extreme. A lot of cult groups they take money,
(07:40):
they of course do all sorts of morally abhorrent things,
but it's not as plain or extreme in the criminal sense.
So the Racketeering Act in the United States was brought
in at the time of al Capone and the Mob,
and basically it's a racketeering enterprise. So you're criminal organization
(08:01):
committing lots of different crimes, and so the acts sort
of need to be committed by at least two members individually,
and it's a way to prosecute a leader, you know,
say your al Capone type figure, for things that clearly
were assigned at least that's usually how it goes. And
so I think a group like Nexium, it's very applicable.
Speaker 4 (08:25):
Right, you have a group leader.
Speaker 1 (08:28):
He wasn't necessarily undertaking all of the acts, but clearly
everything was done under his direction, and so that's how
you got more than ten crimes under his watch, and
he was convicted on all of them and now serves
one hundred and twenty years in federal prison. But the
(08:48):
trial itself was just six weeks of very detailed evidence,
and you could tell that this was very hard they
weren't sure that they were going to land this case
even though there was just such obvious evidence of exploitation.
Speaker 4 (09:04):
You also did have.
Speaker 1 (09:05):
So many people who at the time were very willing
on record in emails saying I want this, you know, master,
please brand me right. They filmed these as sort of
evidence to the contrary. And so when you have folks
who have had a big change in their understanding right
(09:26):
like years ago they saw this as good now they
see it as a crime, that does give the defense
a lot of fuel to sort of poke at their credibility.
And it's just very embarrassing and shameful for a witness
to have to go through that on the stand. And
so prosecutors in general are sort of scared of these
(09:46):
cases because their witnesses are likely going to be dragged
through a lot of mud. And so I've seen in
the cases that I've covered a reluctance to kind of
take action that way.
Speaker 3 (10:01):
Well, absolutely, and I can imagine that makes it really
challenging for the authorities and for the people just trying
to persecute it. Even in our case, there are a
lot of my friends who had left to kinda still
having an issue like coming forward or wanting to take
a stand because of that aspect of being dragged through
the mud and having to retell these accounts where at
(10:21):
the time it seemed one way, but now we are
feeling a completely different way, and also even just like
having a different understanding as far as to the truth
behind what was being told to us in that moment.
Speaker 4 (10:32):
Totally, it takes so much bravery.
Speaker 1 (10:35):
You have to really understand your truth, and you know
that takes a lot of healing, right, and so sometimes
this takes years to actually come to that understanding, and
so when police are trying to take action, that might
not be there for them right away, and so these
cases kind of get bogged down and delayed, and the
(10:57):
families who think they have pretty fear of it and
so say fraud or what have you, they get pretty frustrated,
pretty disappointed. So in any case like this, it's a tough,
uphill battle. And then of course you have legal action
in the opposite way, right you have sometimes a cult
leader going after their ex members, you know, for defamation
(11:19):
for speaking out, and that too is silencing. Yeah, it's
just a really tough time for anyone.
Speaker 2 (11:26):
Which has actually been an ongoing fear throughout the process.
With conversations that we've had with different victims and people
that have left and ex members, it always goes back
to the fear that they will be sued by Robert.
It's something that he's used. It's a power that he
has over people. And similar to what you were saying
with Nexxim, when you have blackmail, coordion, and manipulation, it's
(11:49):
difficult because there is a little bit of when the
victim becomes the perpetrator. So there's that element, and I
think that there's that processing of deprogramming and healing that
needs to have and when someone leaves a situation and
maybe comes to the understanding that maybe they were a
perpetrator in ways or we're feeding into a negative system.
(12:09):
But then also you have the dangling carrots. We just
had a gentleman that had left on our last episode
and he had expressed how he was undocumented. He was
an immigrant to this country and his green card was
something that they were holding over his head and when
they provide him work and shelter and a roof over
(12:31):
his head and food. It's hard to get people to
speak out. It's hard to get people to feel that
they can have any sort of power when that power
is given to a leader, a pastor a manager. So
it was hard to hear these stories and feel that
these people feel powerless. And again, as an outsider, it's
(12:52):
easy for us to say, like, get out there and
go do it, go to the police and share your story.
Speaker 4 (12:57):
But when you've lived.
Speaker 2 (12:58):
It and you deal with that trauma, it takes time
and you have to earn that trust, and that needs
to come from them and it can't be coming from
anybody else except for when they feel ready.
Speaker 1 (13:09):
Yeah, and what you talked about there about the sort
of I guess wager you have to make between the
access of course you were given so much in the group.
I think Chakaina is an interesting example in that regard,
because people really did get influencer careers, you know, like
the carrot was real in this case. Often with cults,
(13:29):
it's pretty fake, you know, none of the next even
people made millions of dollars, even though that's what the
executive success programs claimed to do. So yeah, it would
be even harder to untangle if you really did get
work and room and bored and the things outweighing that
are just as bad.
Speaker 4 (13:49):
But it's just harder to untangle that not.
Speaker 2 (13:54):
When we return the conclusion to our conversation with Sarah,
this is forgive me for I have followed.
Speaker 4 (14:04):
Welcome back to forgive me for I have followed.
Speaker 3 (14:06):
Here's the conclusion of our conversation with Sarah. Can you
share some more of the personal challenges you faced while
working on the Nixium story, especially balancing the need for
rigorous reporting and then considering the vulnerable aspect of the
survivors you were working with.
Speaker 1 (14:24):
I was honestly learning as I went, you know, and
some of the things that I was doing at that time,
I don't know if I would do it again, because,
as you say, people are healing, they don't necessarily need
a reporter coming at them. Certainly with Sarah Edmondson, I
did notice eight months later she had a clearer perspective,
like she had her thoughts together more, she was less
(14:48):
in the trauma of it. And I think that space
for healing is so so important.
Speaker 4 (14:56):
I mean, one of.
Speaker 1 (14:57):
The challenges was just that everybody lawyered up and got
very quiet for a while while the FBI case was unfolding,
and so often I was seeking out folks who were
not involved in that at all, you know, who are
just local to Vancouver, who maybe didn't have as key
a role in the crimes I guess that were prosecuted,
(15:20):
and that really gave me more of a sense of Wow,
this was a you know, very nuanced community, like the
one to one relationships between you know, the women in
particular in this group, they were real, which is why
I sort of avoided the sort of sex cult tabloid
type approach. You know, I didn't even use in my
(15:42):
book the words sex cults, just because it's a shorthand
for an outsider. Yes, and sometimes it's useful, you know,
like I'm not gonna say sex wasn't part of this group,
but it just doesn't fully describe, you.
Speaker 4 (15:56):
Know, what's going on here.
Speaker 1 (15:57):
What are those bonds between women and of course how
Keith R. Nieri was exploiting those. So again, just a
lot of learning as I go. And then when I
covered a different group called Twin Flames Universe after Nexium,
I tried to apply some of that learning. But then
once again you had a cult leader going.
Speaker 4 (16:18):
After my sources, trying to sue them.
Speaker 1 (16:21):
Thankfully that case was thrown out, and so now I
just am trying to inform any of my sources all
of the possible outcomes right up front, because truly it
is a threat, like these groups are dangerous and they
can come after you.
Speaker 2 (16:39):
How do you cope with the emotional toll when you're
investigating these heavy topics like twin Flame Universe. Obviously I'd
watched the documentary Nexium. I'd also watched all the documentary
and did some research on that. How do you cope
with that emotionally?
Speaker 1 (16:54):
Yeah, I mean I'd like to ask you the same question,
because you know, we're all trying to find out And
of course, of course I don't want to put my
experience on the same level as the survivors who have
been through a truly traumatic experience and they do sort of.
Speaker 4 (17:09):
Wear this for the rest of their lives in a
very public way.
Speaker 1 (17:13):
But yeah, I just try to find folks like yourselves
who have been through this very rare, I think experience,
and you know, just sort of hash it out and
try to make adjustments.
Speaker 4 (17:25):
Unfortunately, after or maybe.
Speaker 1 (17:27):
Fortunately, I don't know how to look at this, but
after that Twin Flames documentary, so many people reached out
to me and said, you know, I see my sister
in this group.
Speaker 4 (17:37):
I see my aunt in this group.
Speaker 1 (17:40):
You know, when I was younger, I was in a
group and I didn't really think of it as that
at the time, But now I had this new insight,
you know, and keep on kicking cults and the teeth
or whatever or they say, you know, like.
Speaker 4 (17:53):
It's not a cook.
Speaker 1 (17:54):
But you know, my AA sponsor did some of these
things to me, you know, so so kind of dark.
You know, it's hard to hold all of those things
in your heart and you know, make space for them.
So I do try to write back whenever I can.
It's not always possible, but I think that's the only
way forward, is to sort of reflect and connect and
(18:17):
figure it out sort of as a collective.
Speaker 2 (18:19):
Absolutely, and I can relate to that because I agree
it was always hard to process and talk about it,
because when you're going through something emotional and you're dealing
with such heavy topics, you don't ever want to put
your difficulties on the same level of what they are
going through, because I don't think it equates either. But
it also doesn't discount our feelings and emotions and what
(18:42):
we're taking on. And I think with Chakaina and with
our project, we were dealing with trauma in real time,
and so Khalia and the dancers they had gotten out
weeks prior to our conversations, and when we started to
roll camera it was is very fresh. And then months
(19:02):
later when Alisha got out, that was a different process
and she was actually just speaking with Derek. So it
was just Derek the director and Alicia sometimes in a
room because it was so heavy, and throughout the process
it just took an emotional toll on all of us
because we started to develop these relationships and you start
(19:24):
to get invested in a different way, but really you're
also trying to navigate doing a job while experiencing all
of these emotions, and then you just have your own
personal lives and your career that is separate from this group.
It was very heavy, but I really appreciate you vocalizing
that it's just not on the same scale. So how
(19:45):
do you navigate that and who do you talk to
about it? Because by no means do I ever want
my experience to ever overshadow what the topic is and
what anyone else experienced.
Speaker 1 (19:55):
With Sarah Edmondson, I was lucky enough to be able
to keep some of our you know, meetings fairly light,
like we would have lunch, we would go for a walk,
we would wash something on TV. So it wasn't one
hundred percent just you know, extracting traumatic information. And in
that sense, you know, in my personal life as well,
I really tried to make space too.
Speaker 4 (20:17):
I took up boxing while reporting that book.
Speaker 1 (20:20):
Just really needed all kinds of different outlets and like
all kinds of distractions to just sort of not.
Speaker 4 (20:26):
Fall too far down the rabbit hole.
Speaker 2 (20:28):
Mine was crocheting, Okay, yeah, something with your hands.
Speaker 3 (20:33):
You know, I don't know what it will be for
me yet, but I will find my thing.
Speaker 4 (20:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (20:38):
Do you have any other advice on having that balance
between because that's sometimes where even just friends of mine,
where I'm like, I want to respect the trauma that
you went through, but I also want to get justice
for what we have gone through together.
Speaker 1 (20:51):
Well, similar to what I was saying about, you know,
meeting folks where they're at, you know, like not necessarily
always being on the just this topic, right, you know,
being able to do some third thing, being able to
meet in a you know, not related to Chakaina context, right,
but still having that sort of together feeling because we're
(21:14):
all humans, we're all trying to just like live a life,
and I think creating those spaces and actually the filmmakers
on the Netflix series about Twin Flames Universe very good
for that as well. You know, on the one year
anniversary which just happened in November, you know, they brought
everyone back together just to be in each other's company,
(21:35):
just to have dinner.
Speaker 4 (21:36):
That kind of thing is really important.
Speaker 2 (21:39):
So Sarah, looking ahead, what charges need to happen in
the legal system to make it easier to prosecute cults
like organizations and also to support the victims who come forward.
Speaker 1 (21:51):
I mean, it's hard to say, because no matter what,
in the trial system that we have today, there's going
to be that credibility. The witnesses are going to be
on the stand and the defense is going to be
able to show them a lot of times where they
consented and were happily singing the praises of the group.
(22:11):
So that aspect, yes, you can go in with more information,
you can be sort of armed with the experience of
you know, folks that have come before. I know in
the UK they do have stronger laws around undue influence
and so there could be some legal mechanisms that make
(22:32):
the manipulation tactics that happening called an actual crime. So
there's some stuff to look at around that. I think
with groups that are online that are very international, it's
very hard to know what jurisdiction to go after. Right
when Flames Universe, they're based in Michigan the couple, but
the Michigan local police weren't interested because most of the
(22:56):
people who were harmed aren't in Michigan. Either the FBI
has to take it on or some other jurisdiction. So
some clarity around that stuff would also probably.
Speaker 3 (23:07):
Help to kind of switch gears a little bit. Is
there any advice that you would like to give to
people who are either in a cult like environment in
questioning things or have recently left in our very early
on on their healing journey and process on.
Speaker 1 (23:22):
The ladder, you know someone who's just recently out, It's
fine to go slow. You don't have to jump into
media spotlight. You don't have to fix everything or answer
every question.
Speaker 4 (23:35):
It's fine to just sleep a lot, spend.
Speaker 1 (23:38):
Time with the people you love, you know, maybe get
a pet, right like, those things seem to help you know,
just time, because if you're just sting on the same
questions all the time. I've seen that, and it just
sometimes makes folks reactive. They don't trust anyone, you know,
Like it's a hard, hard mental state to live in.
(24:00):
And yeah, like I think the questioning stage lasts a
really long time. So when you're not quite out but
you're questioning, it doesn't have to be resolved quickly either, right,
And I think if you're unsure, just go to someone
you trust, try to talk it out. Hopefully that person
is very open minded and isn't trying to immediately judge
(24:23):
or say, of course, that guy's a jerk, that guy's
a cult leader. Find someone who will listen, who will
struggle through your questions in a respectful way. That was
definitely something I tried to cultivate as an interviewer. Was
not imposing some outside reality on them and really letting
(24:43):
them speak their own world into existence. So not you know,
saying he's a manipulator even out the gate if that's
not their understanding at the time, and questions will be answered,
it just does sometimes take a really long time.
Speaker 2 (25:09):
We'd like to thank Sarah for sharing her invaluable insight
into the world of cults. From her early reporting and
bountiful to the complexities of prosecuting organizations like NEXIM. Her
first hand experience in navigating the emotional, ethical, and legal
challenges of working with survivors provides a powerful perspective on
this crucial issue. Sarah, we truly appreciate you taking the
(25:29):
time to share your knowledge with us, and we look
forward to continuing to follow your investigations.
Speaker 4 (25:37):
This is Forgive Me For I Have Followed. We'll be
back soon.
Speaker 3 (25:40):
Forgive Me For I Have Followed as a production from
wv Sound, Dirty Robert and iHeartMedia's Michael tore podcast network.
Speaker 2 (25:47):
Hosted by me Khalia Gray and me Jessicasovetto.
Speaker 3 (25:51):
Forgive Me For I Have Followed is produced by Aaron
Burlson and Sophie Spencer Zavos.
Speaker 2 (25:55):
Our executive producers are Kalia Gray, myself, Wulmar Valderrama, Leo
Klam and Aaron Burlison at wv Sound.
Speaker 3 (26:02):
This episode was edited by Sean Tracy and features original
music by Madison Davenport and Halo Boy. For more podcasts
from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever
you listen to your favorite shows.
Speaker 2 (26:15):
See you next week.
Speaker 4 (26:15):
See you next week.
Hosts And Creators
Jessica Acevedo
Kailea Gray
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