March 8, 2021 • 40 mins
In this special bonus episode, Mónica revisits a protest march she attended in México to mark International Women's Day, back at the beginning of 2020. We examine the situation on the ground in Juárez today, share a small update from the Flores family, and answer one of our most frequently asked questions: What can we do, in the continuing fight against femicide and gender violence?
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and conditions at un e st dot CEO. Forgotten is
a production of ihunt Media and Unusual Productions. Before we start.
This podcast contains accounts which some listeners will find disturbing,
but without them, the story can't be fully understood. Please
take care while listening. Welcome to a special bonus episode
(02:05):
of Forgotten Women of Uirez, which we're releasing to coincide
with International Women's Day. We also have some exciting news
to share. This podcast is being adapted into Spanish, German
and Danish in partnership with our friends at Podimo, and
we're honored that this story is reaching a global audience
and continuing to spark important conversation. Because the story is
(02:29):
not over. Femicides continue and families are still seeking justice.
Here is Paula Flores. I want to keep denouncing my
daughter's case, the injustice she suffered. I think that in
some way it keeps her her memory alive. I'll say
(02:52):
too that when we're no longer here, she'll live on
and say, a documentary, a book, and that's where the memory,
if Sagredo, will remain. Whenever I make a public presentation
or good an important meeting, I always first pray to God,
then to Sado help me find the words to express myself.
(03:15):
But I always feel that that my daughter is always
with me. In this episode, we talk about memory and protest,
and we have a conversation prompted by a question we
received time and again from you, our audience, what can
(03:38):
we do to help? I'm as Flashi and I'm this
is forgotten the women of gas you know, not see
(04:16):
Halla Felicia so well, first art, Happy International Women's Day.
Thank you, as it does feel like an appropriate moment
for us to be talking again. Yes, yes, likewise, I'm
very glad that we are able to launch the Spanish
(04:38):
version on this day. I remember this time last year
I went out. It was one of the last mass
public events I went to before the COVID lockdowns was
to this march on International Women's Day in Suda, and
(04:59):
I remember just what an emotional moment it was, especially
at the beginning of the march, where some of the
leaders of the protest, they were speaking the names of
some of the women whose stories I've come to know
very intimately into a bullhorn into the crowd. Hearing their names,
(05:31):
it was just a very very emotional momentum and recognizing
just how long this had gone on and here we were,
yet again crying for justice for the same sorts of crimes,
you know, twenty some years, almost thirty years after they
first began in that city in Wadis. As sad as
(05:54):
that moment was, I feel like that much you told
me at the time kind of gave you a little
bit of a boost of strength around. Yes, yes, yeah,
I'm glad that you mentioned that, because my initial feelings
and reaction to being at that march were sadness and grief.
And then you see this younger generation of women who
(06:17):
may not have even been born when the femicides first
got noticed in Wattis, and they're energetic and they're angry.
And so by the time we reached the final destination.
At the end of the march, I had a completely
different feeling. I got a sense of empowerment there by
the end of the march, that each and every single
(06:39):
one of us needs to keep going. I mean, I
almost didn't come out here today. I decided about forty
five minutes before the beginning of the march to come out,
and I'm glad I did because I see so many
(07:00):
familiar faces that have seen this tragedy play out, just
like me, and they're out here. They're out here, they're marching,
they're fighting, they're protesting. What good does it do in
the end? Ultimately, demonstrations like this bring women together, energize them,
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podcast thinking about that sense of beginning in one emotional
state and ending in another and going through a process that,
(10:04):
funny enough, also reminds me of doing a podcast very honestly.
And you know, we talked in the first episode about
your hesitation to join the project, but then the idea
of having the opportunity to present the story over the
course of almost ten hours versus informal increments on NPR
kind of getting you to the yes column. And I'm
(10:28):
curious as to now, with some months of distance, how
you look back on the process, you know where we
ended up and yes, how did it all feel in
the end? Well, the first word that comes to mind
is cathartic. It's not often that journalist gets to stop
(10:48):
for any length of time, look back and reflect on
a career. How all these four and a half minute
stories ultimately connect and tell a bigger story about the
region and about the world, how the world operates, and
how the world operating impacts this particular part of the world.
(11:12):
This podcast gave me the opportunity to make that reflection.
It made me a wiser human being. It grounded me
in a way that I don't think a lot of
journalists have the opportunity to be grounded, because you're just
going from one story to the next story to the next,
and you don't stop and step back and assess the
(11:37):
wider scope of the work you've done. And why is
that important? Well, it has a lot to do with
with feeling grounded as a professional and as a human being.
Look back, where did you come from? And it helps
you decide maybe where you want to go. What's most
important to you in life, And it's not just about
(11:59):
work going on to the next assignment, that kind of
reflection I consider a gift, and I hope I wish
that more journalists are given that opportunity. It's crucial, it's critical.
When you ask me about takeaways from doing this podcast,
I mean one of the takeaways is learning how to
(12:22):
manage the effects of trauma. One of the things I've
learned as a journalist too, is that eventually it will
catch up with you, and when it does, the last
thing you should do is try to shove it down
and ignore it. Rather, you've got to find a way
to manage it, and one of those ways is to
(12:43):
talk about it. And Paula told us a similar version
of the same thing, that repeating her daughter's story was
not only a way to keep her memory alive, but
it was also a kind of therapy for her, and
that she's taking this weight that she carries it and
vocalizing it, putting it out off her shoulders and out
(13:05):
into the world. And it also feels like an action,
like a sort of activism, as long as it's continuing
to denounce this injustice. One of the more gratifying experiences
of the podcast for me was when you interviewed Paula's
granddaughter in El Paso, and she said what she said
(13:25):
to you. Well, Paula's granddaughter is bilingual. She's fluent in
both English and Spanish, and so she was just about
the only one in the Gonzales Flores family who was
able to listen to the English version of our podcast
as it was coming out last year, and so you know,
(13:48):
I somewhat nervously shared a link to the series so
that she could listen, and I asked her, please, please
tell me what you think, don't hold back. One of
the thoughts she shared was that she felt like she
was getting to know her aunt Sagrario in a way
she hadn't before, in a way that her family hadn't
(14:09):
shared with her previously, and felt a connection to felt
like an intimacy with that she didn't have before. That alone,
to me, was humbling and special. I knew about my aunt,
and I knew like who she was, but I didn't
actually felt like I knew her. And there was a
(14:31):
point in the podcast where I was I was like,
oh my god, like she was a person, Like she
was a living being, and just felt like she was
real rather than just like somebody that they told me about.
How does granddaughter's reaction saying that she felt like she
knew her aunt better having listened to our podcast. That's
essentially the mission statement of why we're doing this show
(14:52):
in Spanish. Yes, it gets to the heart of why.
From the very beginning, I was very adamant that we
also do a span Is adaptation of this podcast. Why
because so many storytellers have come to Howatis, many of
them from outside of Mexico, outside of Howattis, to tell
(15:12):
the stories of these missing and murdered women, and oftentimes
the final project isn't in Spanish, so it's not something
that these families who made a huge emotional investment in
the project can ultimately listen to and judge. So this
is why it was very important to me that we
(15:35):
give them that opportunity in this particular podcast, that we
produce it in Spanish, so that they could listen and
judge for themselves. You told me when you working with
the host of the Spanish version, there was a moment
where you had this almost moment of first booms or something. Yes. Yes,
(15:56):
So we have a European podcasting company called Podimo that
has graciously stepped up to do these trilingual adaptations. Of Forgotten,
one of the hosts of the Spanish podcast. As I
was reading up and trying to learn about who she was,
(16:17):
to my surprise, I read that she was the editor
of none other than Sergio Gonzalez Rodriguez, who investigated the
femicides in Wadis alongside Diana Washington Valdes. Wow, so she
has a very she has a direct and intimate link
(16:38):
to this story. She was there. She was editing Sergio's
story reporting from the cotton fields that we discussed in
episode four. He was in the cotton fields reporting along
alongside Diana Washington Valdez and Rossana Fuentes Berain was his editor.
And she's also the host of the Spanish adaptation of Forgotten.
(17:03):
And yes, that absolutely gave me goose bumps when when
I learned of it. And who's our other host in Spanish?
The other host is another badass female journalist. Her name
is Sandra Romandia and Sandra is an investigative journalist in
Mexico who, like me, grew up near the US Mexico border,
(17:26):
only she grew up on the south side in the
state of Sonora. And Sandra, I mean, she's done tremendous
things in her career, including writing a best selling book
on narcos in Mexico City. She's done phenomenal work exposing corruption,
including a story that got some public housing officials fired
(17:48):
after the twenty seventeen earthquake in Mexico City. I also
want to mention that the German and Danish versions have
hosts who are no slouches either. In Denmark, this is
going to be Anne Courtson, who is an award winning
journalist who is well known for her work on how
misogyny affects politics in Denmark. And in Germany there are
(18:11):
two hosts, Dutson Tekkal and Leila Yenser. Dutson is reported
on sexual violence perpetrated against Yazdi women by Isis, and
Leila has done a lot of work on violence against
migrant women in Germany. So even the hosts who are
(18:31):
working on this podcast, I think demonstrate how this podcast
is both very specific to a certain region but also
connects to this kind of global women's movement. Yes, universal,
it's universal, sadly the experience of women around the world.
I'm glad that there are that there are strong women
(18:52):
behind behind these adaptations. One of the other big questions
that kept coming was what's happening now? Do the femicides continue?
And you obviously on the ground, I'm wondering how you
answered that question. Yes, yes, Well, to be perfectly transparent,
I have spent hardly any time in Wattas since the
(19:15):
pandemic began, so I haven't been there on the ground
myself to get a close up sense of what is
happening in Wattis. But I do keep up with news
reports there and with colleagues who are working there, And
what I can tell you is that Wattas right now
is experiencing what appears to be yet another wave of
(19:39):
drug violence like we not unlike the wave we experience
ten years ago in which women were missing and later
turned up in clandestine graves. Right now, there is a
lot of drug violence happening in Wattis. It appears again
to be a dispute between warring drug cartels, and twenty
(20:01):
closed with roughly sixteen hundred murders, and one hundred and
eighty two of those murders were women, Ten of them
were under age. Now are the same serial sexual murderers
that we discuss in the series Happening in Huattis The
(20:22):
truth is, I'm not entirely sure. What I do know
is that I'm seeing reports of individual cases that sound
that have every indication that they are femicides. I've read
reports of women being murdered in Huata's last year, who
turned up with their hands tied behind their backs, having
(20:44):
been killed by strangulation, found wrapped in a blanket tossed
on a street, showing signs of torture and sexual assault.
So femicide absolutely persists in two thouth, howattist, and it continues,
and not only in Huatas, but throughout Mexico. There was
a very intense article published early last year in Harper's
(21:09):
magazine looking at femicide in Elstello e Mexico, the state
of Mexico, which is the state that surrounds the capital,
Mexico City, and the rise of femicide there. In twenty twenty,
there were nine hundred and forty femicides nationwide in Mexico,
(21:30):
and so it very much continues to be a serious
problem throughout the country and in Huattas as well, which
brings us to the next question, which is what can
we do? Yeah, what can we do? My goodness, you know,
it's a very very complex question to answer. After our
(21:50):
series concluded, a lot of people ask me, well, what
companies should I be boycotting because they've got a factory
in Huattas, And my goodness, I wish it were that simple,
but it's not. And the reason being is that you know,
these these companies make up the guts of things, components
(22:11):
of things inside our car and our washing machine, in
our smartphone, and few have recognizable names. There's a few,
of course, whose names that we recognize who have factories
and Wattas, Boeing, General Electric, Johnson and Johnson FOXCN has
a plant in Wattas that makes Dell laptops. But the
(22:33):
point is it's it's very tough to boycott the things
that they make. Um, you can't exactly rip out the
electric harness in your car, which very likely was assembled
in Wattas. You can't easily boycott energy generated by wind
turbines whose blades were made in Wattas. And you could
(22:56):
choose not to use the WiFi in the Dallas Cowboys Stadium,
but that's not going to better the conditions for the
workers who assemble the cables that make that Wi Fi possible.
So you know this is why I say it's so complex.
It's more about rejecting the economic systems that exploit people
(23:18):
all around the world. And how do you do that?
I mean this this has to do with larger policy decisions,
and how do you influence that. Well, that is somewhat simple.
Um at the ballot box. Yeah, it's interesting. I have
another podcast called Sleepwalkers, which is about technology and society
and our interaction with technology. One of the most interesting
(23:40):
insights that came out of that podcast is that the
big technology companies train us to think as consumers, not
as citizens. And of course, you know, if if price
and convenience are the two key drivers of decision making,
we end up with very very very powerful corporations and
(24:03):
very weak democracy. In other words, sometimes you know, we
need to make harder choices, but it's not really fair
to expect us to make those as individuals. One of
the guests on Sleepwalkers was you of ol Noah Harari,
who wrote a book called twenty one Lessons for the
twenty first Century, and he said, the most important thing
you can do is to organize. Is whether it's a
(24:23):
group of five or ten or twenty people, just get together,
set a common cause and begin to think about steps
that you can take towards that cause. I couldn't agree
more us, I couldn't agree more. Yes, this collective activism,
and that was one of the things that regrettably we
(24:44):
didn't get into in the podcast series are the stories,
the countless stories of brave and committed activists who gave
voice to the injustices happening in insue love howaters. And
that's the kind of activism that is lacking and that
(25:04):
is necessary to create change, whether it's in Mexico or
in the US or anywhere else in the world. And
we've forgotten that because, as you say, we've become better
consumers than citizens, and we need to work as a
country to change that, to switch to switch back to
(25:27):
becoming better citizens for the sake of our democracy. We
have all witnessed the ill effects of a deteriorating democracy,
and I think we should use that as fuel to
fortify it, to take the actions necessary to fortify our democracy.
(25:47):
After the break, we discuss the timelessness of this story
and the importance of continuing to speak out heat in
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you get your podcasts. And in terms of more specific
(28:10):
things that people can do, yes, where do we fall
on that? Okay, yes, there are certainly more practical things
that we can do, and a few of those on
my list. You know, first and foremost is to stop
consuming illegal drugs from Mexico. There's no two ways about it.
(28:32):
If you purchase drugs from Mexico, or if you purchase
drugs and you don't know where the hell they're coming from.
You have blood on your hands. Another thing that we
can't do directly, but we can. It's also a policy
related solution, is to enact the sort of gun regulation
that makes it more difficult to smuggle weapons across the border,
(28:57):
which are used by drug cartels to enforce their own
laws and fortify their business. The majority of weapons and
arms that are used in drug violence in Mexico are
coming from the United States. So, no matter what you
think of the Second Amendment, the free flow of guns
(29:20):
from the US to Mexico contributes directly to the violence
and mayhem there. And you know a third thing I
would mention, and it's a very simple thing you can
do every day, is to stop using sexist language. This
is something again that we do on a daily basis,
(29:41):
and we don't even think about it. We're so numb
to it. Phrases like I'm going to use expletives here,
but motherfucker, son of a bitch calling someone a pussy.
In Spanish, it would be things like chinga or pure.
These are phrases that imply violence against women, and they're
(30:02):
insulting to women and they label women as weaker beings,
and it validates violence and mistreatment against women, and this
overall sense that women are inferior or less than human,
which brings us to a quote that you shared with
me from a book you've been reading, which I think,
(30:25):
once again speaks to the timelessness of this story, which
points from the specific to the universe. So what do
you mind sharing it with us? Yeah, so I want
to share that. After we finished the series, I felt
compelled to pick up a book by a writer named
Nina McLoughlin, and the book is called Wake Siren Avid Resung,
(30:47):
and it's a retelling of Ovid's metamorphoses from the voices
of the women in those stories, many of whom were
the victims of violence. And as I'm reading these tales,
you know, all I could think of was, my God,
these tales are two thousand years old, and this has
(31:10):
been happening since the beginning of time. And it wasn't
just the violence against women that struck me, but it
was the power imbalance between the gods and the mortals.
Because the gods, who are just as fallible as humans,
but their power goes unchecked, and therein lies the problem
(31:31):
back then, and therein lies the problem today. Another thing
that struck me about this book was during one of
our interviews, Paula told me that she looks at the
night sky and sees her daughter in the stars, and
she believes that all of the murdered women have become constellations.
(31:54):
And of course, in Metamorphoses, there's the story of Callisto,
who's raped by a god and she and her son
become two constellations in the sky, the Big Bear and
the Little Bear. And Paula remembers learning about this constellation
as a as a kid in school, so that that
(32:15):
connection was somewhat eerie and moving at the same time.
I've always associated the stars with my daughter. I've always
said that my daughter is one of those stars that's
always shining brightly. You know how we look up at
constellations like the Great Bear and the Lesser Bear, those
(32:38):
we learned about in school. I still look for them,
and I think that all the girls who have been
murdered are connected to the stars, that one of those
stars could be my daughter. Towards the end of Nina's book,
she retells another story, um the story of the Sirens,
(32:59):
And you'll remember that these are the women who supposedly
lure men to their deaths with their irresistible song and
their portrayed as these monsters. But what's less known is
that originally the sirens were three young women who were
searching for their missing friend, a young goddess who was
(33:22):
kidnapped and raped by the king of the underworld. And
these girls one day they were out picking flowers and
singing in the meadow when their friend was snatched away.
And in Nina's version, the sirens continued to sing after
the loss of their friend, and so she writes this
in the voice of the sirens, She writes, do our
(33:46):
harmonies haunt and vise the mind, pressing out all sense?
Do men sometimes leap from their boats and try to
swim to where our voices are? Oh, sister, yes they do.
Is it our fault or our intention? Oh sister, it
is not. We sing a song of consequence. We sing
(34:06):
a song of cost. They know it so, and call
us monsters. Then she continues a few lines later, Now, sing,
oh sister, sing and sing and sing will join our
voices in the chorus, and the sound will rise like bells,
like wind, like strings, like prayer. The song that's yours
(34:31):
to sing louder, louder, you'll see and if the song
doesn't land and light the dark, sister, keep singing your song, holy, consequential, true.
(34:55):
So why do I share this with you? As I
guess at the beginning of the series, didn't think that
I could sing this song again, sing the story of
this song again, And in fact, I still have my doubts.
I doubt it all the time whether I can continue
singing this song that's been sung for thousands of years now,
(35:15):
since the beginning of time. It's exhausting for all of us.
But reading this passage in Nina's book reminds me that
absolutely we must continue singing, we must continue denouncing the injustice.
And as Nina writes, it's a song that's holy, it's
(35:36):
a song that's consequential, and it's a song that's true.
So beautifully put money. It puts me back in mind
of that International Women's Day March that you attended this
time last year. Yes, yes, that's precisely. That's precisely the
feeling I had at the end of the march, And
it's precisely the feeling that I had after reading Nina's
(36:00):
book and it's something that we need a constant reminder of.
We need to keep singing, we need to keep denouncing,
We need to keep finding the sources of fuel to
continue to do so. You can listen to Forgotten Women
(36:28):
of Juarez now in Spanish on the Polymo app, and
from March twenty second it will be available on the
iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
Just search for Olivia Lass. You'll know. Now, You'll know,
(36:53):
No Gods Halla, Felicia Forgotten. The Women of Juarez is
(37:31):
co hosted by Me Monica and me Osveloschen. Forgotten is
executive produced by Me and Mangesh Hattikia. This episode was
mixed by Jessica Krinchich. The production coordinator is Lindsay Hoffman
and the supervising producer Julian Weller. Special thanks to Eva
(37:52):
Lexca of Polymo and Carrie Liberman of iHeart for the
passion and commitment to making these multiguage adaptations possible. Hello beautiful,
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and conditions at un e st dot CEO. Forgotten is
a production of ihunt Media and Unusual Productions. Before we start.
This podcast contains accounts which some listeners will find disturbing,
but without them, the story can't be fully understood. Please
take care while listening. Welcome to a special bonus episode
(02:05):
of Forgotten Women of Uirez, which we're releasing to coincide
with International Women's Day. We also have some exciting news
to share. This podcast is being adapted into Spanish, German
and Danish in partnership with our friends at Podimo, and
we're honored that this story is reaching a global audience
and continuing to spark important conversation. Because the story is
(02:29):
not over. Femicides continue and families are still seeking justice.
Here is Paula Flores. I want to keep denouncing my
daughter's case, the injustice she suffered. I think that in
some way it keeps her her memory alive. I'll say
(02:52):
too that when we're no longer here, she'll live on
and say, a documentary, a book, and that's where the memory,
if Sagredo, will remain. Whenever I make a public presentation
or good an important meeting, I always first pray to God,
then to Sado help me find the words to express myself.
(03:15):
But I always feel that that my daughter is always
with me. In this episode, we talk about memory and protest,
and we have a conversation prompted by a question we
received time and again from you, our audience, what can
(03:38):
we do to help? I'm as Flashi and I'm this
is forgotten the women of gas you know, not see
(04:16):
Halla Felicia so well, first art, Happy International Women's Day.
Thank you, as it does feel like an appropriate moment
for us to be talking again. Yes, yes, likewise, I'm
very glad that we are able to launch the Spanish
(04:38):
version on this day. I remember this time last year
I went out. It was one of the last mass
public events I went to before the COVID lockdowns was
to this march on International Women's Day in Suda, and
(04:59):
I remember just what an emotional moment it was, especially
at the beginning of the march, where some of the
leaders of the protest, they were speaking the names of
some of the women whose stories I've come to know
very intimately into a bullhorn into the crowd. Hearing their names,
(05:31):
it was just a very very emotional momentum and recognizing
just how long this had gone on and here we were,
yet again crying for justice for the same sorts of crimes,
you know, twenty some years, almost thirty years after they
first began in that city in Wadis. As sad as
(05:54):
that moment was, I feel like that much you told
me at the time kind of gave you a little
bit of a boost of strength around. Yes, yes, yeah,
I'm glad that you mentioned that, because my initial feelings
and reaction to being at that march were sadness and grief.
And then you see this younger generation of women who
(06:17):
may not have even been born when the femicides first
got noticed in Wattis, and they're energetic and they're angry.
And so by the time we reached the final destination.
At the end of the march, I had a completely
different feeling. I got a sense of empowerment there by
the end of the march, that each and every single
(06:39):
one of us needs to keep going. I mean, I
almost didn't come out here today. I decided about forty
five minutes before the beginning of the march to come out,
and I'm glad I did because I see so many
(07:00):
familiar faces that have seen this tragedy play out, just
like me, and they're out here. They're out here, they're marching,
they're fighting, they're protesting. What good does it do in
the end? Ultimately, demonstrations like this bring women together, energize them,
(07:26):
empower them, and those are skills that and those are
life saving skills potentially. When we come back, we talk
about another journey, the journey of making this podcast. There's
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podcast thinking about that sense of beginning in one emotional
state and ending in another and going through a process that,
(10:04):
funny enough, also reminds me of doing a podcast very honestly.
And you know, we talked in the first episode about
your hesitation to join the project, but then the idea
of having the opportunity to present the story over the
course of almost ten hours versus informal increments on NPR
kind of getting you to the yes column. And I'm
(10:28):
curious as to now, with some months of distance, how
you look back on the process, you know where we
ended up and yes, how did it all feel in
the end? Well, the first word that comes to mind
is cathartic. It's not often that journalist gets to stop
(10:48):
for any length of time, look back and reflect on
a career. How all these four and a half minute
stories ultimately connect and tell a bigger story about the
region and about the world, how the world operates, and
how the world operating impacts this particular part of the world.
(11:12):
This podcast gave me the opportunity to make that reflection.
It made me a wiser human being. It grounded me
in a way that I don't think a lot of
journalists have the opportunity to be grounded, because you're just
going from one story to the next story to the next,
and you don't stop and step back and assess the
(11:37):
wider scope of the work you've done. And why is
that important? Well, it has a lot to do with
with feeling grounded as a professional and as a human being.
Look back, where did you come from? And it helps
you decide maybe where you want to go. What's most
important to you in life, And it's not just about
(11:59):
work going on to the next assignment, that kind of
reflection I consider a gift, and I hope I wish
that more journalists are given that opportunity. It's crucial, it's critical.
When you ask me about takeaways from doing this podcast,
I mean one of the takeaways is learning how to
(12:22):
manage the effects of trauma. One of the things I've
learned as a journalist too, is that eventually it will
catch up with you, and when it does, the last
thing you should do is try to shove it down
and ignore it. Rather, you've got to find a way
to manage it, and one of those ways is to
(12:43):
talk about it. And Paula told us a similar version
of the same thing, that repeating her daughter's story was
not only a way to keep her memory alive, but
it was also a kind of therapy for her, and
that she's taking this weight that she carries it and
vocalizing it, putting it out off her shoulders and out
(13:05):
into the world. And it also feels like an action,
like a sort of activism, as long as it's continuing
to denounce this injustice. One of the more gratifying experiences
of the podcast for me was when you interviewed Paula's
granddaughter in El Paso, and she said what she said
(13:25):
to you. Well, Paula's granddaughter is bilingual. She's fluent in
both English and Spanish, and so she was just about
the only one in the Gonzales Flores family who was
able to listen to the English version of our podcast
as it was coming out last year, and so you know,
(13:48):
I somewhat nervously shared a link to the series so
that she could listen, and I asked her, please, please
tell me what you think, don't hold back. One of
the thoughts she shared was that she felt like she
was getting to know her aunt Sagrario in a way
she hadn't before, in a way that her family hadn't
(14:09):
shared with her previously, and felt a connection to felt
like an intimacy with that she didn't have before. That alone,
to me, was humbling and special. I knew about my aunt,
and I knew like who she was, but I didn't
actually felt like I knew her. And there was a
(14:31):
point in the podcast where I was I was like,
oh my god, like she was a person, Like she
was a living being, and just felt like she was
real rather than just like somebody that they told me about.
How does granddaughter's reaction saying that she felt like she
knew her aunt better having listened to our podcast. That's
essentially the mission statement of why we're doing this show
(14:52):
in Spanish. Yes, it gets to the heart of why.
From the very beginning, I was very adamant that we
also do a span Is adaptation of this podcast. Why
because so many storytellers have come to Howatis, many of
them from outside of Mexico, outside of Howattis, to tell
(15:12):
the stories of these missing and murdered women, and oftentimes
the final project isn't in Spanish, so it's not something
that these families who made a huge emotional investment in
the project can ultimately listen to and judge. So this
is why it was very important to me that we
(15:35):
give them that opportunity in this particular podcast, that we
produce it in Spanish, so that they could listen and
judge for themselves. You told me when you working with
the host of the Spanish version, there was a moment
where you had this almost moment of first booms or something. Yes. Yes,
(15:56):
So we have a European podcasting company called Podimo that
has graciously stepped up to do these trilingual adaptations. Of Forgotten,
one of the hosts of the Spanish podcast. As I
was reading up and trying to learn about who she was,
(16:17):
to my surprise, I read that she was the editor
of none other than Sergio Gonzalez Rodriguez, who investigated the
femicides in Wadis alongside Diana Washington Valdes. Wow, so she
has a very she has a direct and intimate link
(16:38):
to this story. She was there. She was editing Sergio's
story reporting from the cotton fields that we discussed in
episode four. He was in the cotton fields reporting along
alongside Diana Washington Valdez and Rossana Fuentes Berain was his editor.
And she's also the host of the Spanish adaptation of Forgotten.
(17:03):
And yes, that absolutely gave me goose bumps when when
I learned of it. And who's our other host in Spanish?
The other host is another badass female journalist. Her name
is Sandra Romandia and Sandra is an investigative journalist in
Mexico who, like me, grew up near the US Mexico border,
(17:26):
only she grew up on the south side in the
state of Sonora. And Sandra, I mean, she's done tremendous
things in her career, including writing a best selling book
on narcos in Mexico City. She's done phenomenal work exposing corruption,
including a story that got some public housing officials fired
(17:48):
after the twenty seventeen earthquake in Mexico City. I also
want to mention that the German and Danish versions have
hosts who are no slouches either. In Denmark, this is
going to be Anne Courtson, who is an award winning
journalist who is well known for her work on how
misogyny affects politics in Denmark. And in Germany there are
(18:11):
two hosts, Dutson Tekkal and Leila Yenser. Dutson is reported
on sexual violence perpetrated against Yazdi women by Isis, and
Leila has done a lot of work on violence against
migrant women in Germany. So even the hosts who are
(18:31):
working on this podcast, I think demonstrate how this podcast
is both very specific to a certain region but also
connects to this kind of global women's movement. Yes, universal,
it's universal, sadly the experience of women around the world.
I'm glad that there are that there are strong women
(18:52):
behind behind these adaptations. One of the other big questions
that kept coming was what's happening now? Do the femicides continue?
And you obviously on the ground, I'm wondering how you
answered that question. Yes, yes, Well, to be perfectly transparent,
I have spent hardly any time in Wattas since the
(19:15):
pandemic began, so I haven't been there on the ground
myself to get a close up sense of what is
happening in Wattis. But I do keep up with news
reports there and with colleagues who are working there, And
what I can tell you is that Wattas right now
is experiencing what appears to be yet another wave of
(19:39):
drug violence like we not unlike the wave we experience
ten years ago in which women were missing and later
turned up in clandestine graves. Right now, there is a
lot of drug violence happening in Wattis. It appears again
to be a dispute between warring drug cartels, and twenty
(20:01):
closed with roughly sixteen hundred murders, and one hundred and
eighty two of those murders were women, Ten of them
were under age. Now are the same serial sexual murderers
that we discuss in the series Happening in Huattis The
(20:22):
truth is, I'm not entirely sure. What I do know
is that I'm seeing reports of individual cases that sound
that have every indication that they are femicides. I've read
reports of women being murdered in Huata's last year, who
turned up with their hands tied behind their backs, having
(20:44):
been killed by strangulation, found wrapped in a blanket tossed
on a street, showing signs of torture and sexual assault.
So femicide absolutely persists in two thouth, howattist, and it continues,
and not only in Huatas, but throughout Mexico. There was
a very intense article published early last year in Harper's
(21:09):
magazine looking at femicide in Elstello e Mexico, the state
of Mexico, which is the state that surrounds the capital,
Mexico City, and the rise of femicide there. In twenty twenty,
there were nine hundred and forty femicides nationwide in Mexico,
(21:30):
and so it very much continues to be a serious
problem throughout the country and in Huattas as well, which
brings us to the next question, which is what can
we do? Yeah, what can we do? My goodness, you know,
it's a very very complex question to answer. After our
(21:50):
series concluded, a lot of people ask me, well, what
companies should I be boycotting because they've got a factory
in Huattas, And my goodness, I wish it were that simple,
but it's not. And the reason being is that you know,
these these companies make up the guts of things, components
(22:11):
of things inside our car and our washing machine, in
our smartphone, and few have recognizable names. There's a few,
of course, whose names that we recognize who have factories
and Wattas, Boeing, General Electric, Johnson and Johnson FOXCN has
a plant in Wattas that makes Dell laptops. But the
(22:33):
point is it's it's very tough to boycott the things
that they make. Um, you can't exactly rip out the
electric harness in your car, which very likely was assembled
in Wattas. You can't easily boycott energy generated by wind
turbines whose blades were made in Wattas. And you could
(22:56):
choose not to use the WiFi in the Dallas Cowboys Stadium,
but that's not going to better the conditions for the
workers who assemble the cables that make that Wi Fi possible.
So you know this is why I say it's so complex.
It's more about rejecting the economic systems that exploit people
(23:18):
all around the world. And how do you do that?
I mean this this has to do with larger policy decisions,
and how do you influence that. Well, that is somewhat simple.
Um at the ballot box. Yeah, it's interesting. I have
another podcast called Sleepwalkers, which is about technology and society
and our interaction with technology. One of the most interesting
(23:40):
insights that came out of that podcast is that the
big technology companies train us to think as consumers, not
as citizens. And of course, you know, if if price
and convenience are the two key drivers of decision making,
we end up with very very very powerful corporations and
(24:03):
very weak democracy. In other words, sometimes you know, we
need to make harder choices, but it's not really fair
to expect us to make those as individuals. One of
the guests on Sleepwalkers was you of ol Noah Harari,
who wrote a book called twenty one Lessons for the
twenty first Century, and he said, the most important thing
you can do is to organize. Is whether it's a
(24:23):
group of five or ten or twenty people, just get together,
set a common cause and begin to think about steps
that you can take towards that cause. I couldn't agree
more us, I couldn't agree more. Yes, this collective activism,
and that was one of the things that regrettably we
(24:44):
didn't get into in the podcast series are the stories,
the countless stories of brave and committed activists who gave
voice to the injustices happening in insue love howaters. And
that's the kind of activism that is lacking and that
(25:04):
is necessary to create change, whether it's in Mexico or
in the US or anywhere else in the world. And
we've forgotten that because, as you say, we've become better
consumers than citizens, and we need to work as a
country to change that, to switch to switch back to
(25:27):
becoming better citizens for the sake of our democracy. We
have all witnessed the ill effects of a deteriorating democracy,
and I think we should use that as fuel to
fortify it, to take the actions necessary to fortify our democracy.
(25:47):
After the break, we discuss the timelessness of this story
and the importance of continuing to speak out heat in
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(27:13):
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you get your podcasts. And in terms of more specific
(28:10):
things that people can do, yes, where do we fall
on that? Okay, yes, there are certainly more practical things
that we can do, and a few of those on
my list. You know, first and foremost is to stop
consuming illegal drugs from Mexico. There's no two ways about it.
(28:32):
If you purchase drugs from Mexico, or if you purchase
drugs and you don't know where the hell they're coming from.
You have blood on your hands. Another thing that we
can't do directly, but we can. It's also a policy
related solution, is to enact the sort of gun regulation
that makes it more difficult to smuggle weapons across the border,
(28:57):
which are used by drug cartels to enforce their own
laws and fortify their business. The majority of weapons and
arms that are used in drug violence in Mexico are
coming from the United States. So, no matter what you
think of the Second Amendment, the free flow of guns
(29:20):
from the US to Mexico contributes directly to the violence
and mayhem there. And you know a third thing I
would mention, and it's a very simple thing you can
do every day, is to stop using sexist language. This
is something again that we do on a daily basis,
(29:41):
and we don't even think about it. We're so numb
to it. Phrases like I'm going to use expletives here,
but motherfucker, son of a bitch calling someone a pussy.
In Spanish, it would be things like chinga or pure.
These are phrases that imply violence against women, and they're
(30:02):
insulting to women and they label women as weaker beings,
and it validates violence and mistreatment against women, and this
overall sense that women are inferior or less than human,
which brings us to a quote that you shared with
me from a book you've been reading, which I think,
(30:25):
once again speaks to the timelessness of this story, which
points from the specific to the universe. So what do
you mind sharing it with us? Yeah, so I want
to share that. After we finished the series, I felt
compelled to pick up a book by a writer named
Nina McLoughlin, and the book is called Wake Siren Avid Resung,
(30:47):
and it's a retelling of Ovid's metamorphoses from the voices
of the women in those stories, many of whom were
the victims of violence. And as I'm reading these tales,
you know, all I could think of was, my God,
these tales are two thousand years old, and this has
(31:10):
been happening since the beginning of time. And it wasn't
just the violence against women that struck me, but it
was the power imbalance between the gods and the mortals.
Because the gods, who are just as fallible as humans,
but their power goes unchecked, and therein lies the problem
(31:31):
back then, and therein lies the problem today. Another thing
that struck me about this book was during one of
our interviews, Paula told me that she looks at the
night sky and sees her daughter in the stars, and
she believes that all of the murdered women have become constellations.
(31:54):
And of course, in Metamorphoses, there's the story of Callisto,
who's raped by a god and she and her son
become two constellations in the sky, the Big Bear and
the Little Bear. And Paula remembers learning about this constellation
as a as a kid in school, so that that
(32:15):
connection was somewhat eerie and moving at the same time.
I've always associated the stars with my daughter. I've always
said that my daughter is one of those stars that's
always shining brightly. You know how we look up at
constellations like the Great Bear and the Lesser Bear, those
(32:38):
we learned about in school. I still look for them,
and I think that all the girls who have been
murdered are connected to the stars, that one of those
stars could be my daughter. Towards the end of Nina's book,
she retells another story, um the story of the Sirens,
(32:59):
And you'll remember that these are the women who supposedly
lure men to their deaths with their irresistible song and
their portrayed as these monsters. But what's less known is
that originally the sirens were three young women who were
searching for their missing friend, a young goddess who was
(33:22):
kidnapped and raped by the king of the underworld. And
these girls one day they were out picking flowers and
singing in the meadow when their friend was snatched away.
And in Nina's version, the sirens continued to sing after
the loss of their friend, and so she writes this
in the voice of the sirens, She writes, do our
(33:46):
harmonies haunt and vise the mind, pressing out all sense?
Do men sometimes leap from their boats and try to
swim to where our voices are? Oh, sister, yes they do.
Is it our fault or our intention? Oh sister, it
is not. We sing a song of consequence. We sing
(34:06):
a song of cost. They know it so, and call
us monsters. Then she continues a few lines later, Now, sing,
oh sister, sing and sing and sing will join our
voices in the chorus, and the sound will rise like bells,
like wind, like strings, like prayer. The song that's yours
(34:31):
to sing louder, louder, you'll see and if the song
doesn't land and light the dark, sister, keep singing your song, holy, consequential, true.
(34:55):
So why do I share this with you? As I
guess at the beginning of the series, didn't think that
I could sing this song again, sing the story of
this song again, And in fact, I still have my doubts.
I doubt it all the time whether I can continue
singing this song that's been sung for thousands of years now,
(35:15):
since the beginning of time. It's exhausting for all of us.
But reading this passage in Nina's book reminds me that
absolutely we must continue singing, we must continue denouncing the injustice.
And as Nina writes, it's a song that's holy, it's
(35:36):
a song that's consequential, and it's a song that's true.
So beautifully put money. It puts me back in mind
of that International Women's Day March that you attended this
time last year. Yes, yes, that's precisely. That's precisely the
feeling I had at the end of the march, And
it's precisely the feeling that I had after reading Nina's
(36:00):
book and it's something that we need a constant reminder of.
We need to keep singing, we need to keep denouncing,
We need to keep finding the sources of fuel to
continue to do so. You can listen to Forgotten Women
(36:28):
of Juarez now in Spanish on the Polymo app, and
from March twenty second it will be available on the
iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
Just search for Olivia Lass. You'll know. Now, You'll know,
(36:53):
No Gods Halla, Felicia Forgotten. The Women of Juarez is
(37:31):
co hosted by Me Monica and me Osveloschen. Forgotten is
executive produced by Me and Mangesh Hattikia. This episode was
mixed by Jessica Krinchich. The production coordinator is Lindsay Hoffman
and the supervising producer Julian Weller. Special thanks to Eva
(37:52):
Lexca of Polymo and Carrie Liberman of iHeart for the
passion and commitment to making these multiguage adaptations possible. Hello beautiful,
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