November 12, 2021 • 40 mins
In this episode, host Geoffrey Zakarian speaks with celebrity chef Duff Goldman. From his childhood slurping up chicken soup to his teenage years hunting down the best clams coastal Massachusetts had to offer, the “Ace of Cakes” shares the details of how he fell in love with his craft – and managed to make it big.
Learn more about Duff and find his children’s cookbook, “Super Good Baking For Kids,” here: https://www.duff.com/store/p/super-good-baking-for-kids
For more information on "Four Courses With Geoffrey Zakarian" follow Geoffrey on Instagram here: https://www.instagram.com/geoffreyzakarian.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:08):
My name is Jeffery Z. Carrion, and you're listening to
four Courses with Jeffery Z. Carrion from I Heart Radio
and four Courses, I'll be taking you along for the
ride while I talked with the top talent of our time.
In each conversation, I focused on four different areas of
my guest life and career. And during those four courses,
I'm gonna dig deep in and cover new insights and
inspirations that we can all use to fuel ourselves to
(00:31):
push forward. My guest for this episode is one of
the most sought after cake makers in the United States.
He's known for his intricate, sensational cake designs and he
hosted his own Food Nework show for ten seasons. Without
further delay, let's get into my conversation with Duff Goldman
look at Chip silver Fox for my first course, I
(00:53):
wanted to ask Duff about growing up in Detroit, Virginia
and coastal Massachusetts and what smells of focus sense of
childhood for him today. Duff knew his answer right away,
and it had nothing to do with cakes or pastries.
Chicken soup, chicken soup, chicken soup. Yeah, and it's funny. Uh.
Friend of mine, she's under the weather and I made
her some chicken soup yesterday and I was outside and
(01:16):
I can't walked back in the house, and I was like,
oh man, it smells like being a kid again. That's
just what. It just always smelled like chicken soup. Chicken
soup was constantly cooking. Did you guys chicken I gotta
know this because you're Jewish. Did you remove the schmaltz
and use it or did you leave it in there
and just as a cover when it was like sitting
in the fridge. Oh, no, you leave it in there.
(01:37):
You leave it in there. Yeah, you leave it in
there because you're saving it from montster balls. So so
you you use the soup once, twice, three times, you
take it off and that's the montster ball schmaltz. Yeah.
Once all the fat is nice and hard and you know,
solidified at the top that goes in a jar, and
you're saving it from mounts balls. Oh my god, I'm
like so excited. Now she's knowing that. Yeah. And but
(01:58):
now here's the thing, my my, my mom and I
kind of like birge and having some Yeah, because you know,
I've worked in restaurants and like things that have been
roasted taste better than things that happened. So I roast
all my bones my chicken static dark yeah, and she like,
she's like, that's not how you make our chicken soup.
(02:19):
And I'm like, I don't care. It's delicious. It's better
than your So okay, So let's let's for people. I
want I want people to understand there are two ways
to cook chicken. Do you roast and then cook simmer
real slow? And do you use wings or anything else?
Are you just a whole bird? Very simple guy? I
use wings and drumsticks. I can't find backs, like there's
(02:40):
nowhere there's nowhere to find a chicken back anywhere, you know.
And it's like, I can't you know, I'm not gonna
get a fifty pound frozen case of chicken backs living
in my house. So I've been using I use drumsticks
and wings. Drumsticks and wings to make the actual stock.
What about the chicken you add to the soup? So
I take all the chicken off of the legs and
(03:02):
dice it up, wait till the soup is done out
of back, So you don't use breast or thigh. I'm
surprised you not a thigh guy. I mean, I'm a
thigh guy, I am, But they're the thighs when you
put them in chicken soup. I just feel like there's
too much meat to the meat to bone ratio. It's
too much meat, you know what I mean. So I
like the wings and the drumsticks because you're getting nice
(03:25):
big bones. Yeah. Wow, God, I'm learning something. And I
also this is something a lot, but I put um.
I put a couple of pinches of cayenne in there
because for me, chicken soup is restorative and usually when
I'm making it, somebody doesn't feel good and a little
tiny bit of cayenne. Nobody knows it's in there, but
(03:47):
they just know that their throat feels better after they
after they have my soup a little bit of cane.
So okay, So you perfected chicken soup. The smell brings
you back, and the reason why you're doing it multiple
times and giving it away is because it's why was
in your childhood, so your cures everything time your mom
was she the person that did most of the cooking,
(04:07):
or did any of that transferred to anyone else. So
my great grandmother, what was her name, Dova Esther Steinberg.
We called her Mamo Mamo. Yeah. She was the baker
and she was a weaver and a millionaire. She made
like ladies hats. Yeah, I told her she was super
nuts and u but she was like the cook, like
(04:28):
the baker, and then kind of skipped my grandma. My
grandma's incredible artist. She was a photographer, she was a
silver smith, she did enamel work. She was incredible. But
she didn't really like to cook very much. My mom
was the one that really like got all of my
great grid Like she got all of her recipes, um,
and really kind of learned how to cook from my
(04:49):
great grandmother. You know, we grew up with delicious food.
I mean, you know, like the thing is, like I
kind of grew up in the burbs, right, I don't
know where you grew up, but like you probably had
like other friends who were also sophisticated that also ate
good food, right, living in like the burbs in Northern Virginia.
Like when I started going to friends houses right as
a elementary school, and like their parents would cook dinner,
(05:12):
you know if you were having a sleepover, and like
I would taste like their parents. You know their food now, granted,
like other people's food always taste a little weird when
you're a kid, But nobody was cooking like we used
to get. I want to turn my nose out by
the way swans and TV dinners. I was a snob
at five because, like you, everything was cooked fresh from me.
(05:32):
I'm like, this isn't spinach? What spinach tastes like? You
just you sawte it? What's some olive oil and garlic?
When you're ready to eat it? It's ready in one minute.
It's not like frozen. What do we's like this patty
of whipped meat with brown goop on it, and you're
just like, this is groat sleep, you know, while you're
very lucky. So you grew up you know, the Middle
(05:54):
East and on Middle Etern as well, and I grew
up with We made our own yogurt and it would
sit around the floors and the corner over the registers
and the heat. But when you take and you taste
lebni fresh, you stick a spoon and it stands up
and you're like, no one gets that. No, it's hard
to explain people that you become a snob early on
(06:14):
and not in a bad way. You just tasting food
as it should be. At five, six, seven, eight years old,
you're like, well, this is okay, My my threshold is here.
And then all of a sudden the floor falls out
when you go to someone's house. And it's interesting now
being a dad, like I'm really aware of like, okay,
like you know, I mean, she's gonna eat some McDonald's.
(06:36):
Of course she is. McDonald's is great, but she's gonna
know what it is, you know what I mean, She's
gonna understand its place in her universe. You know, she's
gonna And don't you think, like you want a hamburger, well,
let's let's make one. You want some French fries, Let's
let's make some, let's say, you know, and then you
see the work that goes into it, and then okay,
let's go buy some and then you know, actually it's
(06:57):
fun to buy them. But the ones we made were
really good. And that's the education right there. It's like
you'd spend time making it. It's kind of fun to
spend time cutting up and like, you know, having stories
and like making a mess with your kids. It's nothing better. Yeah,
we're putting in a wood fired oven. She's gonna learn
that if she wants pizza, we need to start making
(07:18):
it three days ahead of time. Isn't that beautiful? You know? Yeah,
So we're gonna make dough and the next day he's
already can we look at it, you know, and it's like, okay,
we gotta punch it down. You know, It's I can't wait.
It's gonna be great. So I I was we have
a similar sort of glide path because I grew up
watching galping gourmet at twelve, and you watch Chef Tell
on TV, and like that said a lot to me
(07:40):
because I already had this great food and then here's
this guy traveling to Europe and like coming back and
drinking wine in a suit and and if you know,
you know, I know, you know me, But that's kind
of like who I am, and I never knew it
tenoral leven that thing would get through and become so
important to me. But tell me about Chef Tell. Chef
Tell he was kind of a I'll do right. It was.
(08:02):
He was wild guys, really funny, like yeah he was
in Philadelphia. He like he wore like leather pants, like
he was just like total like just swinging, super cool
guy and like it wasn't I think what I mean,
I was really young. I was probably five or six
when I was watching, but like I was just like,
this guy's nuts, you know, And like I think when
(08:23):
I was looking at him when I was five or six,
I was like most of the adults I know don't
look or sound like this guy. This guy is different,
and I like this adult. Most adults are like I don't,
we're we're not speaking the same language. But like this guy,
you just kind of got And there was something about that,
Like my relationship with Chef Tell, I think really informed
(08:47):
what I try to do when I'm on TV now,
and I tried to like when people watch Jasy Cakes,
I think that you know, there were a lot we
had a lot of kids that watched Dacy Cakes, and
I think the thing is was that they were looking
at us and they were like, wait a minute, those
are adults, and they're acting like that they're silly and
they're doing cool stuff and like they dressed weird and
(09:10):
they listen to music and they like goof around and
like I want to be that kind of adult. And
I think that that was like not necessarily conscious on
my part, but I think it was definitely part of
the d N a of sort of you know who
I became. In our second course, I had to understand
(09:30):
how Duff first found his way into the kitchen. He
got his start as a fried cook at McDonald's, which
thought him valuable lessons about cooking that he carries with
him to this day. So I can make twelve big
macs in a minute, I was like, I was good
at it. They put me on the register and that
didn't go so well. So they were they were like,
you're gonna be cooking, and so one of the things
I used to get in trouble. And granted, here's the
(09:50):
thing I was. I had to get a permission slip
from my guidance counselor at junior high school to get
that job. And I mean I was young and even
back then, like I was cooking fries. And the way
it would work is you would you would open up
the frozen fries, you drop them in the bask, you
drop them in the oil, you hit the button. When
the timer goes off, you pull them out, salt them
(10:11):
and serve them. I personally thought that they needed another
fifteen seconds, and I agree with you, right. I mean
that Crisp doesn't stay, they don't take crispy, and they
need they just need a little color. They need a
little more color. And my managers were like, you gotta
stop doing that. And I'm like they're better and they're like,
(10:31):
it doesn't matter that like and and it was, well,
it does matter. It's McDonald's taught me some really serious lessons.
And I think that anybody wanting to get into culinaries
should go work at McDonald's first, because you learn all
the dumb stuff that nobody wants to teach you. You
run nice kitchens that are putting out really crazy food.
(10:54):
You can't have people that don't know what they're doing
walking in your kitchen be like, hey, I want to
I want to work it right. There's just some things
you're not going to teach people, like hey, when you
do this, do it the same way every single time.
You know, like you know, I'm not painting to think
pinion your technician. You know you're a technician. It's just
seth McDonald's. You're a technician. But it's important because I
tell people it's three shows a day, breakfast, lunch, and dinner.
(11:16):
You do the same thing every day. You better do
it right fifteen hundred times a week. Well, you're not
gonna have a job. That's what it is. It isn't
this artism. Art Artistry comes and goes like a meteor,
and when it comes you grab it. But you gotta
put in a bottle. You're not selling your artistry. You're
selling like, Okay, I had this, I spent all this
time on this fantastic coat of birth of four. But
(11:39):
they want the cheeseburger. They sell more, They want more
of those, So you gotta like accept it and move on. Yeah,
that's a bitter pill to swallow. It's a bitter pill
to swallow. But I love that the fact that you
spent a lot of time in um Sandwich, on Cape
Cod mass And I'm a Massachusetts boy, So what the
hell did you do? And sich I did. I graduated
(12:00):
school in Sandwich. We moved up there from Virginia. Kind
of split up, so, you know, we got out of
My dad was in government, so we got out of
the DC area, and my mom watched too much northern exposure,
so she wanted some sort of brand adventure as a
recent divo se and so she was like let's move
to Cape Cod, you know. So we moved to Cape
(12:21):
Cod and she, you know, it's lovely, you know her
my stepdad like, oh, it's beautiful. It was like we
moved there and I was like, there are three stoplights
in this town. I am not cut out for this,
and I ended up it's just my spiritual home. You know,
it's a really wonderful place. And I love clams. I
fun fact about Duff. I think about clams at least
(12:43):
once a day. Wow, they're that good there, aren't they. Yeah,
I just love clams. Clams. You have to understand people's
like it's a religion. They're so expensive. People don't realize
they're like a fortune. A gallon of clams is like old,
but like frying a clam, Like everybody in the world,
(13:05):
there's like nine nine point eight percent of the world
thinks that pride clams are clam strips, and nobody understands,
like what a real ipswitch clam fried with the belly on,
and like what the difference? Tell us? How you would
tell him to walk us through a fried clam demo? Sorry,
(13:27):
if I was gonna fried clams, I don't know if
I've ever fried a piss plam before. So they're called
piss clams because when you when you dig for him
and you pull them out of the sand, they squirt
water at you. Um. But so you had sort of
had these sort of long squid way bodies and they
got a big belly. They got this big round belly.
Do you like the bellies and no bellies? You like
the whole thing? Right? Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, the bellies
(13:49):
that's the part. Right. It's the it's like you get
all you get all this crunch, you get all this
chew from like the clam meat, but then you get
the belly and it's like a gusher. Yeah, yeah, I know.
It's amazing. So I do like it with a roll
toasted or you like it, um, just in a in
a pint cup with mayonnaise or or or tartars. Yeah.
(14:11):
I like him. I like him in a huge I
Am pole and a big thing of tartar sauce and
a Parker House roll cold butter. Yeah. Man. So you're
like you're sort of like graduating Baltimore. You've got a
history degree, philosophy degree, and then you just said, screw it,
I'm going to culinary school. You know, it's funny. So
(14:33):
when I was when I was a kid, when I
was young, the reason I got a job at McDonald's
was because I was a graffiti artist and you know,
I couldn't ask my mom for money for spray paint,
so I had to get a job. And so I
got a job so I could make enough money to
buy spray paint. That was kind of my intro to cooking,
you know, I mean, everybody finds it differently, you know.
(14:54):
You know, I'm sure you have a crazy story about like,
you know, how you actually started doing it, but it's
like that was it. I just I needed a paycheck,
and so that was my first job. And then, you know,
it was like as I went through high school, I
just kept working in different places. I worked at pizza place.
It's just what I did. And then when when I
was a senior in high school, and I like, I
(15:14):
remember the moment I was working at Sandwich Pizza, which
is the pizza place in Sandwich, Massachusetts, not a place
that makes sandwiches out And so I was making a
steak and cheese and so I had a big block
of frozen shaped meat banging it on the flat top
and I'm cutting it up with two big grittle spatules yea.
And I noticed as I was doing that, my brother
(15:36):
was in the kitchen and he like came to the
restaurant because he wanted to take and cheese. So I
was talking to my brother and the whole time I
was like and so I like realized, I was like, man,
I'm just doing this. My hands are just doing this
completely on their own while I'm having a whole conversation
with my brother, and I'm not at all focused. I'm
good at this. I should be a chef. I was like,
that was the moment that I was. I was like,
(15:58):
you know, I'm not going to underground Billy for our
(16:18):
third course. I dug into how Duff followed that drive
to become a chef all the way to the top.
He skyrocketed from culinary school to the French laundry, to
executive pastry chef and a ski resort in Colorado. But
Duff says it all started with cornbread and biscuits. So
I was working at you do you know Cindy Wolf? Okay, Yeah,
(16:39):
So I was working for Cindy Wolf and she was like, look,
you know, she wasn't gonna hire me to cook because
I didn't know how to cook. She's like, I'll teach
you how to bake cornbread and biscuits. You can do
that Tuesday, two days a week. Watch these guys, and
you know, maybe, you know, we'll see what happens. So
I ended up baking cornbread every day for two years,
and I just fell in love with it. Got good
at it, Yeah, I got well, yeah, I got real
(17:00):
it at it. I just would notice, like I I
saw how my awareness of the world changed in that,
Like I knew if it was going to be humid,
I knew that, like the cornbread wasn't gonna caramelize the
way that he usually does, or you know, I would
like if the butter milk was to gloppy. I knew
that it was going to be a thicker batter, you know,
(17:20):
it was going to be a standard mean, just like
all these little things that I started noticing because you're
doing the same thing over and over every day for
two years. It's like being in solitary confinement. You start
noticing the minutia. And I loved it. I just loved it.
I loved trying to understand the side I didn't even
know where to look at this point, you know, but
(17:42):
trying to understand sort of like what was happening here.
I mean, you know, I have a degree in philosophy.
I'm analytical, so I was. I was at our exact
seu's house and on his coffee table there was brochure
for Graystone, and I was just like, whoa, look at
this place. Looks that looks best way you saw. I
(18:03):
love this brochure. Let's go. It's great. And then I
was reading through it and they're like, yeah, they have
a pastry program. And the thing that I really liked
about it was that they had a certificate program. It
was like thirty weeks right. I was like, look, I
just graduated college. I don't need another degree. I don't
want to be in school for two years. It's like
this place, man, thirty weeks in and out. And I
(18:23):
was like, that's what I'm doing, you know. I mean,
isn't that People understand how beautiful it is. It's like Hogwarts.
I mean you walk in there and it's just the
staircase that just goes all the way up and then
you get up there and the teaching kitchen, I mean
you have every amazing piece of equipment that you could
(18:44):
ever want that you'll never see in the real world
because nobody has a steam injected bone guard oven unless
you're you know, Daniel Blut, you know what I mean, Like,
you know, it's just it was just amazing and like
the teachers are incredible that you know, you have every herb.
California is you know, California is awesome. Everything grows there, everything, everything,
(19:04):
And so I also so the great thing about that
program is you've got to stage at some really good places.
So you're now in the thick of it. You're in
the weeds and the swamp, but you're in like Nirvana
at the same time because you're working at French Laundry,
one of the greatest restaurants in the world, as a
stage and you met a gentleman Stephen was a great
great pastry shift. So what was that experience like and
(19:25):
how did that sort of push you? Yeah, you know,
how did that push you in what? And in which direction? Yeah?
I think, um, you know, people ask about the French
Launge is like, you know, what did you learn there?
I think the thing that I learned the most is
digging deep, right, like making sure that like my first
(19:46):
plate and my last plate are identical, and that there's
just as much heart and love and soul that went
into the last plate of dinner that night that went
into the first plate. Everybody expects an incre doable experience
and you have to give it to him. And I
think that was one of the things where you know,
at the end of the night, you know, I was young,
(20:06):
and like you know you you like, oh man, I'm
just kind of beat, you know what I mean. It
doesn't matter that play has to be absolutely perfect every
single time. And I think that it was that like
I learned the depths of myself there, you know what
I mean. And Stephen himself, Like the thing about Stephen is,
uh Stephen Derfy is he's like next level smart and
(20:30):
you've got to really pay attention, and you know, you
don't have time to be taking notes like you really
you learn to be on your toes. Tell us people
about like the chef life when you're working in a
place in the stage and what's the chef life hours
your lifestyle out of the restaurant. Many people have a
very glorious view of what it's like to be in
the chef in the chef world, and I think that
(20:51):
people don't really understand, like basically, you get up, you
wash your clothes, and you go to work and the
print and repeat. Yeah. So I was there for about
eight months. I didn't get paid. I would usually get
there at about seven thirty. I was one of the
first people there, and I would get the pastry station ready.
(21:12):
So I did take a Q tip and I got
to make sure that all of the chocolate molds are
perfectly clean, you know, because if there's any little speck
of anything, and you know, we're making all these chocolates
because at the end of the night, when you get
your billy, you get these really nice little chocolates make
and if any of those molds had any specum anything,
that chocolate wouldn't come out to total waste um. So
(21:33):
that was one of the first things I did. I
would pull out all of the sorbet from the night before.
I'd have to pull all those out and let them
melt so we could re spend them so they were
fresh for service at night. Can't do that with ice
cream because the fat starts to congeal. I would also
do the prep for the cheese guy, so I would
like get a bunch of his herbs altogether and get
(21:56):
a lot of his stuff ready. I had to unwrap
his roque because the guy had really sensitive skin, and
the Brian on the Yokfort the Roefort used to like
chap his hands, so I have to like unwrap and
portion all the rokeeford for the fromager. So there was like,
you know, that was kind of my uh my morning.
(22:16):
And then after that it was like here, make these
potato chips. Here, duff, make these gugers. You know, it
was that kind of thing. And then when all the
other cooks started getting there and everybody, you know, you
really start getting ready for service. My station was a
cutting board on the hamper, uh in the parking line. Yeah,
(22:38):
thirty cooks and that you know, not anymore. These expanded it.
But it was a small little place. And yeah, I
mean that's very important. Like you said, you didn't get paid,
but like you just mentioned the like twelve techniques that
you learned, and I would say that that's a lot
of payment. You learned things. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, invaluable.
The reason I said, because I know there's a lot
(22:58):
of there's a lot of debate back and forth with
about paid internships and unpaid internships. I gotta say I
would I would have stuck around there for two years
not getting paid. I mean I was the things I
was learning at that place, you know, I mean just
learning how to move, learning how to think, you know,
just learning how to put stuff together. It was you know,
a hundred whether I wasn't complaining, you know what. I
(23:18):
didn't mean for it to come out like that. No, No, no,
I don't. I don't mean at all. And I have
the same problem today. It's like it's very hard to
have people that want to actually do that. It's a
very much. You know, You're walking in the kitchen and
they say, well, is there a four one K plan here?
And I'm like wrong question? Yeah, like wrong question. Go
back out, come in and asking that question again. You know,
I tell people like specially when they're going to Coliner
(23:40):
sm like listen, like you know, cooking, if you need
a job to earn a paycheck, cooking is not what
you want to be doing. It's not easy. It's not
you have to love it. You have to be obsessed
about food. And when you take a bite of something,
you know, say it's a I don't know, a Reese's
peanut butter cup. Right, you take a bite of a
Reese peanut butter cup the way I think about a
(24:02):
Reese's peanut butter cups, Like you know, I'm thinking about
all right, the chocolate that's on the edges is like
really kind of thick, and you get a little bit
of a snap to it when you bite it into it.
The chocolate that's underneath it super duper thin, and with
your tongue you can actually like press it and it'll
mush into the peanut butter a little bit. And then
when you bite down the little ridges they kind of
(24:26):
hit your lip here and here and like that. So
that's like this, that's sort of the bite, and then
you're getting like sweet chocolate, sweet chocolate, and all of
a sudden, you know, here's a bunch of salty peanut butter, right,
and what a big crazy gear ship that happens in
your in your mouth. Right, That's how I think about
a Reese's peanut butter cup. And if you don't think
about the food you enjoy, why you enjoy it cooking,
(24:50):
you just it's not for you. It's like it's hard,
it's hard, hard work, and you know, you get burned,
you get yelled at. It's not you know, it's just
not an easy thing for people to keep doing over
and over again unless you love it. You know, you
have to love it. And you you're learning this for nothing.
You moved to California, I mean to Colorado at Cascade
(25:12):
Beautiful Resort, and now you're the exact patroyship. That is
a stunning leap. That's like, come on, ye, So have
you ever lived in a resort town? If I ever
lived in No, I've moved back and forth. I mean
I've gone to them many many times. I've never actually
seen a lot of time. So one of the things
about a resort town is that talent is hard to find.
(25:36):
And in Veil, you know, it's like, you know, the
One Eyed Man as king in the Land of the Blind, right,
and there's just not a lot of people that know much.
And so I got there. I had some buddies from
high school that were kind of waster snowboarders, and I
was like, I left California actually walked out of French laundry.
I was like, just like I felt like somebody took
(25:57):
a bur mixer and kind of blended up my brain,
like I for a year at that place. I was
I was crazy. So I was like, all right, I'm
gonna go hang out. My friends live on their couch
and snowboard. Right. I was done. I just I was broken.
I didn't even know if I wanted to cook anymore.
Like it was crazy. So I was like, all right,
I gotta get a job. After a couple of weeks,
I was like living on my credit cards. So I
gotta get a job. So buddy mine. I knew a
(26:18):
guy who was a room service runner at the Veil Cascade,
at this beautiful hotel, and so he got me an
interview with the chef. I went in there. I was like, look,
I just want to bake bread. Let me come in.
I'm a good bread baker. I'll break you all kinds
of delicious bread. I'll go home. It'll be like a
nice show job. He's like, I I need a bread baker,
but I also need a executive facer chef. And I
(26:38):
was like, I'm twenty two. I was in culinary school.
I worked at the French laundry. I don't know how
to make desserts for people. I just don't know how
to do it. I've never done that and he was like,
you'll figure it out. I love Yeah, Yeah, he's amazing.
His name is Jesse Lapatan, And I was like, I
really don't want to be the executive pacier chef. I
(27:00):
don't know how to do it. I don't have the
I don't have the soul for right now. I'm just
I'm broken. Let me just do my thing. And he
was like, I'm not gonna hire you. I'm only gonna
hire his second of pat. So he was a really
funny guy, and uh, he talked me into him. He's
like the cook whisperer, you know what I mean. Like
I came to him like completely broken. And when I
(27:20):
left there, I was doing sugar sculptures. I was doing
chocolate sculptures. I was carving ice, you know, like I mean,
he just really like, you know, he found me this quivering,
you know, hunk of meat and he built me back
up in New you know, somebody who was actually useful. Again,
that's incredible, what incredible story. Well, he saw something, obviously,
(27:40):
I think he just saw somebody that knew what the
difference between ap flower and cake flower was. Honestly, for
(28:02):
our fourth and final course, I got to ask stuff
about how all that incredible training prepared him for his
own ventures and for all that's next. Turns out, the
beginning of Duff's career working for himself started in a
very humble Baltimore apartment. Well here's what happened. So, um,
I think one of my cousins went to olives in
Boston and uh saw Tied English in there and he
(28:27):
was like, Hey, my cousin is a pastry chef. So
Todd's like, tell him to send his resume. So my
cousin calls me all excited, like Todd Englis told told
me to tell you to send your resume because he
needs a pastry shop, and like he probably says that
to every idiot that walks up to and says, hey,
my cousin's a pastry shop, right, Like what do you say?
You know? So I was like, you know what, I'm
send him a resume. So I did, and then I
(28:48):
got a call and he was like, hey, I'm opening
up a place in d C. Come in interviews. So
I actually ended up moving to d C. Back home,
I was a bread baker there. So then I was
like really close to Baltimore, which is where I went
to undergrad. That where all my friends were, and that's
where all my like musician friends were. So I started
playing music again, like seriously. We started getting good, and
(29:09):
I was like, you know what, I'm gonna move back
to Baltimore. So I left all. I was at Alls
for about a year, moved back to Baltimore in two
thousand two. Open Charm City Cakes so I could pay
the rent. Right, So I was making cakes in my
apartment in Baltimore so I could make enough money that
I could, you know, pay the bills and I could
become a big famous rock star in my emo band,
(29:31):
which was called Two Day Romance. What a great name. Yeah,
it's good. So the thing was we were actually really
good band, and like we were played some pretty big shows,
you know, were like opened up for some really big bands,
and like, you know, we were like we were doing
the thing right. And the thing was, like, you know,
I was still like in my early twenties, so I
(29:52):
was like, if it's good, if I'm gonna be a
like a rock star, it's gonna happen now. It doesn't
happen when you're in your thirties, right, And he likes
the old fat rock start every like young, young fat rocks.
So I was, you know, like trying to be in
a band. And so I was like, all right, I'm
gonna open up. I'm gonna start selling cakes and uh
that's how I'm gonna pay the rent. Well, then all
(30:12):
my buddies were musicians. So my friend Jeff is a musician.
He was like he was working as an architectural model builder,
and he was like, all right, I'm done with this.
You know, I want to do with duffs. Do duf's
like playing music. I've owned the business. So I'm like,
all right, if I'm gonna be on tour for two weeks,
I'm not taking any cake orders and I'm going on tour. Right.
It was great. I was broke, but it was great.
(30:34):
So Jeff is like, all right, I want to work
for you. So I hired my buddy Jeff, and then
my other friend Chris hired him. Basically, were like a
group of dudes working in my apartment and like something
that weird, like word gets out right, like a bunch
of dudes and rock bands are making these like beautiful
Martha Stewart wedding cakes. Like that's a very Baltimore thing,
(30:56):
you know, and so we start to get bigger, you know,
and like you know, and started get more orders and stuff,
and I was like, man, we need some help because like,
I'm not trying to work this hard. So I got
an email from this young lady who was a like
a sophomore at MICA, the Maryland Institute College of Art,
(31:17):
which is the art school in Baltimore, really really good school,
and she's like, I want to be an intern. And
I was like, I don't even have a Health Department certification,
Like I can't have an intern like these place isn't legal.
And so she was like, I really want to know.
I want to work there. I want to make cakes.
I love this stuff. And so she came and I
remember her first day. I taught her how to make
(31:38):
pastiage roses, these you know, little roses out at a
gun bay and she's doing that and I'm making a pug, right,
so I'm carving this cake to look like a dog.
So I'm carving this thing and she's making the roses
and she's like she's like nineteen, like eighteen, nineteen years old.
She's like I think I could do that. And I
was just like, let's like learn how to walk before
(31:58):
you learn how to run, you know what I mean, like,
you know, do the roses. And she's like, okay, I
get it. So I'm like, you know, I'm just doing
my thing. And then she's like, you know, I really
think I could do that. I was like, you know what.
She kind of seems like very sure of herself, and
I was like, whatever, it's his cake. You know, if
she messes up, we can make another. So I give
her the cake and I'm like, all right, go for it.
So she starts going for it, and I'm like, you know,
she never decorated a cake in her life. She's like
(32:19):
carving at it. And then like we iced it together,
you know, I showed her how to is so buttercream.
We put fonding on it, and I give her the
airbrush and she starts airbrush on this thing, and like
she makes a photo realistic looking dog light years better
than anything I would have. And I'm pretty good, right,
I'm a good cake that greater and she absolutely killed
(32:40):
And I was just like, man, you got any friends?
And she's like yeah. So then her roommate showed up,
and her roommate back then is now my g M.
She's running the whole East coast. Yeah, it's crazy crazy.
So then we got all these kids from art school, right,
So it started out just like a bunch of dudes
tattoos and rock bands. And now we have like all
these like kids with like blue hair and you know,
(33:02):
a bunch of like weirdo art school kids. And it
was great because like we were like the stuff that
we were making was just like, you know, there was
no rules like that. You know, there was no there
was no guide book for this, Like there's no like, Okay,
here's how you make a cake that has a motor
in it, right, Like we just had to sort of
figure it out. It was fun. When did a food
network find it? So it was like two thousand and
(33:24):
four and I got invited to compete for Bone Appetite
in Beaver Creek. They had a big bone ampete and
a big and so I was like, yeah, that'd be awesome,
so you know, I could go see all my friends
and bail. So I went to Beaver Creek and I
never competed in a professional cake decorating thing before I've done.
(33:45):
I did like ice carving competitions and like some other stuff,
but never cake decorating. So you know, I didn't really
know what to expect. I get there. I didn't realize
you could have bring an assistant, right, everybody had an assistant.
I didn't. And then there was all these like rules, Right,
you have to stay in your station, you can't like
walk around to the other side of the table. You
get like, this wasn't a televised thing. Long story short,
(34:05):
I broke all the rules. I made an amazing cake,
but like I literally set the table on fire because
I was welding. I brought an arc welder with me
because I was making this crazy big tree. It was
super cool. And so the judges to two of those
judges were on Food Network Challenge, but they went back
to food I mean they were like, hey, there's this kid.
He's like twenty five. He's an idiot, but like he
(34:26):
makes really cool stuff. You should probably have him on
the Food Network Challenge. And so they called me and
they were like, hey, do you want to compete on TV?
And I was like, yeah, sure, you know, so I
asked Jeff. You know, I was like, hey, man, you
want to you want to go do this? It was
actually really good because, like, you know, I'm very from
the hip. My style is very kind of like loosey goosey,
and Jeff is like, you know, he was an architectural
model builder, right he was, you know, and uh so
(34:50):
like our style, it was good. Like we we complimented
each other. And so we started doing those Food Network
challenges like we never we never did good, like we
always our cakes would fall apart, or like we'd come
in like maybe third, you know, or something like that.
We were never waiting. But they kept asking me back,
and like one day, I was like, why do you
guys keep having us back? Like we're not very good,
you know, we're not as good as everybody else. And
(35:10):
they were like, you guys are funny. You're the only
one that tells jokes. And I was like, okay, well
you know I can tell jokes. And uh then they
wanted to get some be wroll and so what they
did was they sent a crew to the bakery. They
come to the bakery, it's all these like dudes, tattoos
and people with blue hair. There's like eleven of us.
And they were like, it's not just you and Jeff,
(35:31):
it's like all these crazy Baltimore kids. And so they like,
you know, they were like we need to make this
into a TV show because you guys are nuts. And
so they showed up with cameras and that was it.
I got tense. How many seasons? Ten season tense? And
it's you know, it's crazy because like you're trying to
run a business like I was, like, I'm trying to
run am trying to run a cake shop, trying to
(35:52):
pay the bills, and like you're also making a TV
show in the middle. It's crazy. Well, it's just if
you speak, if you speak your mind, and it's amazing
that all the bullshit you can cut right through and
people actually see the authenticity. And I think that everybody
sees your authenticity is such to the fact that you've
got like how many of these studios you have now
the cake makes places? Oh man, well we had five,
(36:14):
now we have one. You you open some of the pandemic. Yeah, yeah,
we are pandemic. Like I mean, it was really you know,
you think about like my studios were a bunch of
people come and inside of a building and you know,
a bunch of kids running around decorating cakes, working with
their hands. I know, I had my two daughters there.
We had a blast doing it and there's so there's
(36:35):
it's fun. It's so fun, and it's like so unusual
in the middle of a big city. It's like, let's
go on, let's make some cakes. And you make it
so easy, and it was so well, it was so
smartly organized, and it was such a clean space, and
kids need that kind of vocational sort of stuff that
sometimes the parents, you know, we don't have those things anymore.
Mom and dad. Who knows how to make a cake anymore?
(36:56):
I'm scratch it's hard, yeah, you know it beyond that too.
I mean, there's something that I found and this was
after I opened it that I noticed this, or at
least articulated it. The thing that I love seeing as
kids come in there and you can tell they're a
little aloof and they might be like a little bit,
you know, a little bit nervous about trying something like
(37:16):
this because it's crazy. And when they're done and they're
looking at this thing they made, they're like, I am
a pastry god. You know, just this sense of accomplishment
that you've been able to give somebody And when you
think about like where that can go, and it's I
(37:38):
like to think of like, you know, when when you
give somebody an opportunity to have that sense of accomplishment
for themselves. If that's like a new feeling for them,
well then now it's like, well where else can I
get that feeling? I'm not trying to make everybody into
a cake decreater. I just want everybody to be awesome.
You can be like, wait, I want that sense of accomplishment.
I'm gonna like run sprints every day and you know
(38:00):
I'm gonna run a four four forty and right and
when I hit it right, you know that's it. Like
you know, like I'm gonna see this happen. I can
there's something in my mind that I know that I
don't know how to do. Right now, I'm gonna do it.
You know, I'm gonna do this thing like I'm smart
enough and I can figure it out. So it seems
like you've got a lot figured out, but you know,
you never can figure out a baby. And you have
this beautiful daughter, Josephine. So everything's changed, and what what's
(38:24):
next for you? What's the future look like? The immediate future,
no one knows the full future, but as far as
your brand and your family, you know, where are you going? What?
What do you way you want to go? First of all,
I don't know. I mean the thing is is like
like mentoring kids on kids making championship and um great.
So you know, I've been really just like you know,
with my daughter, like I've been really getting into kids stuff,
(38:45):
like I love I just wrote a kids cookbook, Super
Good Baking for Kids, and it's like it's amazing the
messages I'm getting on Instagram, like hey, my kid has
your book. Look at this cake they just made. She's seven, right,
you know, And it's just like that kind of thing
for me, I think is you know, that's the most rewarding.
I think like doing stuff with kids. Kids are so excited.
(39:07):
A lot of times, like adults, like life has beaten
them down. We lose our, you lose your your joy
and your verb and your curiosity and your your enthusiasm,
you know. And I think like with kids, like they
still got it. But it's like I love doing this stuff,
you know, like I just love it. So I don't know,
I don't know what's next. I don't know what's next season.
(39:28):
But all I know is I've had at delightful hour.
It just flew by. It's just wonderful to talk to you.
You have such a great calm viewpoint of things, and um,
I know it doesn't come from you being calm, because
I don't think you're a calm person. I think that
you know, part part graffiti artists, part musician, part rock
star and great human being. Thank you so much for
(39:51):
spending time with me, Ma Man, Thanks Man, back at
your buddy, Thanks very much for listening to Four Courses
with Jeffrey Zcarean, a production of I Heart Radio and
Corner Table Entertainment. Four Courses is created by Jeffrey Zcarrion,
Margaret Zecarrion, Jared Keller, and Tara Helper. Our executive producer
(40:13):
is Christopher Hasiotis. Four Courses is produced by Jonathan Haws Dressler.
Our research is conducted by Jesselyn Shields. Our talent booking
is by Pamela Bauer at Dogtown Talent. This episode was
edited and written by Priya Mahadevan and mixed by Joe Tistle.
Special thanks to Katie Fellman for help as recording engineered.
(40:33):
For more podcasts from my Heart Radio, visit the I
Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to
your favorite shows.
My name is Jeffery Z. Carrion, and you're listening to
four Courses with Jeffery Z. Carrion from I Heart Radio
and four Courses, I'll be taking you along for the
ride while I talked with the top talent of our time.
In each conversation, I focused on four different areas of
my guest life and career. And during those four courses,
I'm gonna dig deep in and cover new insights and
inspirations that we can all use to fuel ourselves to
(00:31):
push forward. My guest for this episode is one of
the most sought after cake makers in the United States.
He's known for his intricate, sensational cake designs and he
hosted his own Food Nework show for ten seasons. Without
further delay, let's get into my conversation with Duff Goldman
look at Chip silver Fox for my first course, I
(00:53):
wanted to ask Duff about growing up in Detroit, Virginia
and coastal Massachusetts and what smells of focus sense of
childhood for him today. Duff knew his answer right away,
and it had nothing to do with cakes or pastries.
Chicken soup, chicken soup, chicken soup. Yeah, and it's funny. Uh.
Friend of mine, she's under the weather and I made
her some chicken soup yesterday and I was outside and
(01:16):
I can't walked back in the house, and I was like,
oh man, it smells like being a kid again. That's
just what. It just always smelled like chicken soup. Chicken
soup was constantly cooking. Did you guys chicken I gotta
know this because you're Jewish. Did you remove the schmaltz
and use it or did you leave it in there
and just as a cover when it was like sitting
in the fridge. Oh, no, you leave it in there.
(01:37):
You leave it in there. Yeah, you leave it in
there because you're saving it from montster balls. So so
you you use the soup once, twice, three times, you
take it off and that's the montster ball schmaltz. Yeah.
Once all the fat is nice and hard and you know,
solidified at the top that goes in a jar, and
you're saving it from mounts balls. Oh my god, I'm
like so excited. Now she's knowing that. Yeah. And but
(01:58):
now here's the thing, my my, my mom and I
kind of like birge and having some Yeah, because you know,
I've worked in restaurants and like things that have been
roasted taste better than things that happened. So I roast
all my bones my chicken static dark yeah, and she like,
she's like, that's not how you make our chicken soup.
(02:19):
And I'm like, I don't care. It's delicious. It's better
than your So okay, So let's let's for people. I
want I want people to understand there are two ways
to cook chicken. Do you roast and then cook simmer
real slow? And do you use wings or anything else?
Are you just a whole bird? Very simple guy? I
use wings and drumsticks. I can't find backs, like there's
(02:40):
nowhere there's nowhere to find a chicken back anywhere, you know.
And it's like, I can't you know, I'm not gonna
get a fifty pound frozen case of chicken backs living
in my house. So I've been using I use drumsticks
and wings. Drumsticks and wings to make the actual stock.
What about the chicken you add to the soup? So
I take all the chicken off of the legs and
(03:02):
dice it up, wait till the soup is done out
of back, So you don't use breast or thigh. I'm
surprised you not a thigh guy. I mean, I'm a
thigh guy, I am, But they're the thighs when you
put them in chicken soup. I just feel like there's
too much meat to the meat to bone ratio. It's
too much meat, you know what I mean. So I
like the wings and the drumsticks because you're getting nice
(03:25):
big bones. Yeah. Wow, God, I'm learning something. And I
also this is something a lot, but I put um.
I put a couple of pinches of cayenne in there
because for me, chicken soup is restorative and usually when
I'm making it, somebody doesn't feel good and a little
tiny bit of cayenne. Nobody knows it's in there, but
(03:47):
they just know that their throat feels better after they
after they have my soup a little bit of cane.
So okay, So you perfected chicken soup. The smell brings
you back, and the reason why you're doing it multiple
times and giving it away is because it's why was
in your childhood, so your cures everything time your mom
was she the person that did most of the cooking,
(04:07):
or did any of that transferred to anyone else. So
my great grandmother, what was her name, Dova Esther Steinberg.
We called her Mamo Mamo. Yeah. She was the baker
and she was a weaver and a millionaire. She made
like ladies hats. Yeah, I told her she was super
nuts and u but she was like the cook, like
(04:28):
the baker, and then kind of skipped my grandma. My
grandma's incredible artist. She was a photographer, she was a
silver smith, she did enamel work. She was incredible. But
she didn't really like to cook very much. My mom
was the one that really like got all of my
great grid Like she got all of her recipes, um,
and really kind of learned how to cook from my
(04:49):
great grandmother. You know, we grew up with delicious food.
I mean, you know, like the thing is, like I
kind of grew up in the burbs, right, I don't
know where you grew up, but like you probably had
like other friends who were also sophisticated that also ate
good food, right, living in like the burbs in Northern Virginia.
Like when I started going to friends houses right as
a elementary school, and like their parents would cook dinner,
(05:12):
you know if you were having a sleepover, and like
I would taste like their parents. You know their food now, granted,
like other people's food always taste a little weird when
you're a kid, But nobody was cooking like we used
to get. I want to turn my nose out by
the way swans and TV dinners. I was a snob
at five because, like you, everything was cooked fresh from me.
(05:32):
I'm like, this isn't spinach? What spinach tastes like? You
just you sawte it? What's some olive oil and garlic?
When you're ready to eat it? It's ready in one minute.
It's not like frozen. What do we's like this patty
of whipped meat with brown goop on it, and you're
just like, this is groat sleep, you know, while you're
very lucky. So you grew up you know, the Middle
(05:54):
East and on Middle Etern as well, and I grew
up with We made our own yogurt and it would
sit around the floors and the corner over the registers
and the heat. But when you take and you taste
lebni fresh, you stick a spoon and it stands up
and you're like, no one gets that. No, it's hard
to explain people that you become a snob early on
(06:14):
and not in a bad way. You just tasting food
as it should be. At five, six, seven, eight years old,
you're like, well, this is okay, My my threshold is here.
And then all of a sudden the floor falls out
when you go to someone's house. And it's interesting now
being a dad, like I'm really aware of like, okay,
like you know, I mean, she's gonna eat some McDonald's.
(06:36):
Of course she is. McDonald's is great, but she's gonna
know what it is, you know what I mean, She's
gonna understand its place in her universe. You know, she's
gonna And don't you think, like you want a hamburger, well,
let's let's make one. You want some French fries, Let's
let's make some, let's say, you know, and then you
see the work that goes into it, and then okay,
let's go buy some and then you know, actually it's
(06:57):
fun to buy them. But the ones we made were
really good. And that's the education right there. It's like
you'd spend time making it. It's kind of fun to
spend time cutting up and like, you know, having stories
and like making a mess with your kids. It's nothing better. Yeah,
we're putting in a wood fired oven. She's gonna learn
that if she wants pizza, we need to start making
(07:18):
it three days ahead of time. Isn't that beautiful? You know? Yeah,
So we're gonna make dough and the next day he's
already can we look at it, you know, and it's like, okay,
we gotta punch it down. You know, It's I can't wait.
It's gonna be great. So I I was we have
a similar sort of glide path because I grew up
watching galping gourmet at twelve, and you watch Chef Tell
on TV, and like that said a lot to me
(07:40):
because I already had this great food and then here's
this guy traveling to Europe and like coming back and
drinking wine in a suit and and if you know,
you know, I know, you know me, But that's kind
of like who I am, and I never knew it
tenoral leven that thing would get through and become so
important to me. But tell me about Chef Tell. Chef
Tell he was kind of a I'll do right. It was.
(08:02):
He was wild guys, really funny, like yeah he was
in Philadelphia. He like he wore like leather pants, like
he was just like total like just swinging, super cool
guy and like it wasn't I think what I mean,
I was really young. I was probably five or six
when I was watching, but like I was just like,
this guy's nuts, you know, And like I think when
(08:23):
I was looking at him when I was five or six,
I was like most of the adults I know don't
look or sound like this guy. This guy is different,
and I like this adult. Most adults are like I don't,
we're we're not speaking the same language. But like this guy,
you just kind of got And there was something about that,
Like my relationship with Chef Tell, I think really informed
(08:47):
what I try to do when I'm on TV now,
and I tried to like when people watch Jasy Cakes,
I think that you know, there were a lot we
had a lot of kids that watched Dacy Cakes, and
I think the thing is was that they were looking
at us and they were like, wait a minute, those
are adults, and they're acting like that they're silly and
they're doing cool stuff and like they dressed weird and
(09:10):
they listen to music and they like goof around and
like I want to be that kind of adult. And
I think that that was like not necessarily conscious on
my part, but I think it was definitely part of
the d N a of sort of you know who
I became. In our second course, I had to understand
(09:30):
how Duff first found his way into the kitchen. He
got his start as a fried cook at McDonald's, which
thought him valuable lessons about cooking that he carries with
him to this day. So I can make twelve big
macs in a minute, I was like, I was good
at it. They put me on the register and that
didn't go so well. So they were they were like,
you're gonna be cooking, and so one of the things
I used to get in trouble. And granted, here's the
(09:50):
thing I was. I had to get a permission slip
from my guidance counselor at junior high school to get
that job. And I mean I was young and even
back then, like I was cooking fries. And the way
it would work is you would you would open up
the frozen fries, you drop them in the bask, you
drop them in the oil, you hit the button. When
the timer goes off, you pull them out, salt them
(10:11):
and serve them. I personally thought that they needed another
fifteen seconds, and I agree with you, right. I mean
that Crisp doesn't stay, they don't take crispy, and they
need they just need a little color. They need a
little more color. And my managers were like, you gotta
stop doing that. And I'm like they're better and they're like,
(10:31):
it doesn't matter that like and and it was, well,
it does matter. It's McDonald's taught me some really serious lessons.
And I think that anybody wanting to get into culinaries
should go work at McDonald's first, because you learn all
the dumb stuff that nobody wants to teach you. You
run nice kitchens that are putting out really crazy food.
(10:54):
You can't have people that don't know what they're doing
walking in your kitchen be like, hey, I want to
I want to work it right. There's just some things
you're not going to teach people, like hey, when you
do this, do it the same way every single time.
You know, like you know, I'm not painting to think
pinion your technician. You know you're a technician. It's just
seth McDonald's. You're a technician. But it's important because I
tell people it's three shows a day, breakfast, lunch, and dinner.
(11:16):
You do the same thing every day. You better do
it right fifteen hundred times a week. Well, you're not
gonna have a job. That's what it is. It isn't
this artism. Art Artistry comes and goes like a meteor,
and when it comes you grab it. But you gotta
put in a bottle. You're not selling your artistry. You're
selling like, Okay, I had this, I spent all this
time on this fantastic coat of birth of four. But
(11:39):
they want the cheeseburger. They sell more, They want more
of those, So you gotta like accept it and move on. Yeah,
that's a bitter pill to swallow. It's a bitter pill
to swallow. But I love that the fact that you
spent a lot of time in um Sandwich, on Cape
Cod mass And I'm a Massachusetts boy, So what the
hell did you do? And sich I did. I graduated
(12:00):
school in Sandwich. We moved up there from Virginia. Kind
of split up, so, you know, we got out of
My dad was in government, so we got out of
the DC area, and my mom watched too much northern exposure,
so she wanted some sort of brand adventure as a
recent divo se and so she was like let's move
to Cape Cod, you know. So we moved to Cape
(12:21):
Cod and she, you know, it's lovely, you know her
my stepdad like, oh, it's beautiful. It was like we
moved there and I was like, there are three stoplights
in this town. I am not cut out for this,
and I ended up it's just my spiritual home. You know,
it's a really wonderful place. And I love clams. I
fun fact about Duff. I think about clams at least
(12:43):
once a day. Wow, they're that good there, aren't they. Yeah,
I just love clams. Clams. You have to understand people's
like it's a religion. They're so expensive. People don't realize
they're like a fortune. A gallon of clams is like old,
but like frying a clam, Like everybody in the world,
(13:05):
there's like nine nine point eight percent of the world
thinks that pride clams are clam strips, and nobody understands,
like what a real ipswitch clam fried with the belly on,
and like what the difference? Tell us? How you would
tell him to walk us through a fried clam demo? Sorry,
(13:27):
if I was gonna fried clams, I don't know if
I've ever fried a piss plam before. So they're called
piss clams because when you when you dig for him
and you pull them out of the sand, they squirt
water at you. Um. But so you had sort of
had these sort of long squid way bodies and they
got a big belly. They got this big round belly.
Do you like the bellies and no bellies? You like
the whole thing? Right? Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, the bellies
(13:49):
that's the part. Right. It's the it's like you get
all you get all this crunch, you get all this
chew from like the clam meat, but then you get
the belly and it's like a gusher. Yeah, yeah, I know.
It's amazing. So I do like it with a roll
toasted or you like it, um, just in a in
a pint cup with mayonnaise or or or tartars. Yeah.
(14:11):
I like him. I like him in a huge I
Am pole and a big thing of tartar sauce and
a Parker House roll cold butter. Yeah. Man. So you're
like you're sort of like graduating Baltimore. You've got a
history degree, philosophy degree, and then you just said, screw it,
I'm going to culinary school. You know, it's funny. So
(14:33):
when I was when I was a kid, when I
was young, the reason I got a job at McDonald's
was because I was a graffiti artist and you know,
I couldn't ask my mom for money for spray paint,
so I had to get a job. And so I
got a job so I could make enough money to
buy spray paint. That was kind of my intro to cooking,
you know, I mean, everybody finds it differently, you know.
(14:54):
You know, I'm sure you have a crazy story about like,
you know, how you actually started doing it, but it's
like that was it. I just I needed a paycheck,
and so that was my first job. And then, you know,
it was like as I went through high school, I
just kept working in different places. I worked at pizza place.
It's just what I did. And then when when I
was a senior in high school, and I like, I
(15:14):
remember the moment I was working at Sandwich Pizza, which
is the pizza place in Sandwich, Massachusetts, not a place
that makes sandwiches out And so I was making a
steak and cheese and so I had a big block
of frozen shaped meat banging it on the flat top
and I'm cutting it up with two big grittle spatules yea.
And I noticed as I was doing that, my brother
(15:36):
was in the kitchen and he like came to the
restaurant because he wanted to take and cheese. So I
was talking to my brother and the whole time I
was like and so I like realized, I was like, man,
I'm just doing this. My hands are just doing this
completely on their own while I'm having a whole conversation
with my brother, and I'm not at all focused. I'm
good at this. I should be a chef. I was like,
that was the moment that I was. I was like,
(15:58):
you know, I'm not going to underground Billy for our
(16:18):
third course. I dug into how Duff followed that drive
to become a chef all the way to the top.
He skyrocketed from culinary school to the French laundry, to
executive pastry chef and a ski resort in Colorado. But
Duff says it all started with cornbread and biscuits. So
I was working at you do you know Cindy Wolf? Okay, Yeah,
(16:39):
So I was working for Cindy Wolf and she was like, look,
you know, she wasn't gonna hire me to cook because
I didn't know how to cook. She's like, I'll teach
you how to bake cornbread and biscuits. You can do
that Tuesday, two days a week. Watch these guys, and
you know, maybe, you know, we'll see what happens. So
I ended up baking cornbread every day for two years,
and I just fell in love with it. Got good
at it, Yeah, I got well, yeah, I got real
(17:00):
it at it. I just would notice, like I I
saw how my awareness of the world changed in that,
Like I knew if it was going to be humid,
I knew that, like the cornbread wasn't gonna caramelize the
way that he usually does, or you know, I would
like if the butter milk was to gloppy. I knew
that it was going to be a thicker batter, you know,
(17:20):
it was going to be a standard mean, just like
all these little things that I started noticing because you're
doing the same thing over and over every day for
two years. It's like being in solitary confinement. You start
noticing the minutia. And I loved it. I just loved it.
I loved trying to understand the side I didn't even
know where to look at this point, you know, but
(17:42):
trying to understand sort of like what was happening here.
I mean, you know, I have a degree in philosophy.
I'm analytical, so I was. I was at our exact
seu's house and on his coffee table there was brochure
for Graystone, and I was just like, whoa, look at
this place. Looks that looks best way you saw. I
(18:03):
love this brochure. Let's go. It's great. And then I
was reading through it and they're like, yeah, they have
a pastry program. And the thing that I really liked
about it was that they had a certificate program. It
was like thirty weeks right. I was like, look, I
just graduated college. I don't need another degree. I don't
want to be in school for two years. It's like
this place, man, thirty weeks in and out. And I
(18:23):
was like, that's what I'm doing, you know. I mean,
isn't that People understand how beautiful it is. It's like Hogwarts.
I mean you walk in there and it's just the
staircase that just goes all the way up and then
you get up there and the teaching kitchen, I mean
you have every amazing piece of equipment that you could
(18:44):
ever want that you'll never see in the real world
because nobody has a steam injected bone guard oven unless
you're you know, Daniel Blut, you know what I mean, Like,
you know, it's just it was just amazing and like
the teachers are incredible that you know, you have every herb.
California is you know, California is awesome. Everything grows there, everything, everything,
(19:04):
And so I also so the great thing about that
program is you've got to stage at some really good places.
So you're now in the thick of it. You're in
the weeds and the swamp, but you're in like Nirvana
at the same time because you're working at French Laundry,
one of the greatest restaurants in the world, as a
stage and you met a gentleman Stephen was a great
great pastry shift. So what was that experience like and
(19:25):
how did that sort of push you? Yeah, you know,
how did that push you in what? And in which direction? Yeah?
I think, um, you know, people ask about the French
Launge is like, you know, what did you learn there?
I think the thing that I learned the most is
digging deep, right, like making sure that like my first
(19:46):
plate and my last plate are identical, and that there's
just as much heart and love and soul that went
into the last plate of dinner that night that went
into the first plate. Everybody expects an incre doable experience
and you have to give it to him. And I
think that was one of the things where you know,
at the end of the night, you know, I was young,
(20:06):
and like you know you you like, oh man, I'm
just kind of beat, you know what I mean. It
doesn't matter that play has to be absolutely perfect every
single time. And I think that it was that like
I learned the depths of myself there, you know what
I mean. And Stephen himself, Like the thing about Stephen is,
uh Stephen Derfy is he's like next level smart and
(20:30):
you've got to really pay attention, and you know, you
don't have time to be taking notes like you really
you learn to be on your toes. Tell us people
about like the chef life when you're working in a
place in the stage and what's the chef life hours
your lifestyle out of the restaurant. Many people have a
very glorious view of what it's like to be in
the chef in the chef world, and I think that
(20:51):
people don't really understand, like basically, you get up, you
wash your clothes, and you go to work and the
print and repeat. Yeah. So I was there for about
eight months. I didn't get paid. I would usually get
there at about seven thirty. I was one of the
first people there, and I would get the pastry station ready.
(21:12):
So I did take a Q tip and I got
to make sure that all of the chocolate molds are
perfectly clean, you know, because if there's any little speck
of anything, and you know, we're making all these chocolates
because at the end of the night, when you get
your billy, you get these really nice little chocolates make
and if any of those molds had any specum anything,
that chocolate wouldn't come out to total waste um. So
(21:33):
that was one of the first things I did. I
would pull out all of the sorbet from the night before.
I'd have to pull all those out and let them
melt so we could re spend them so they were
fresh for service at night. Can't do that with ice
cream because the fat starts to congeal. I would also
do the prep for the cheese guy, so I would
like get a bunch of his herbs altogether and get
(21:56):
a lot of his stuff ready. I had to unwrap
his roque because the guy had really sensitive skin, and
the Brian on the Yokfort the Roefort used to like
chap his hands, so I have to like unwrap and
portion all the rokeeford for the fromager. So there was like,
you know, that was kind of my uh my morning.
(22:16):
And then after that it was like here, make these
potato chips. Here, duff, make these gugers. You know, it
was that kind of thing. And then when all the
other cooks started getting there and everybody, you know, you
really start getting ready for service. My station was a
cutting board on the hamper, uh in the parking line. Yeah,
(22:38):
thirty cooks and that you know, not anymore. These expanded it.
But it was a small little place. And yeah, I
mean that's very important. Like you said, you didn't get paid,
but like you just mentioned the like twelve techniques that
you learned, and I would say that that's a lot
of payment. You learned things. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, invaluable.
The reason I said, because I know there's a lot
(22:58):
of there's a lot of debate back and forth with
about paid internships and unpaid internships. I gotta say I
would I would have stuck around there for two years
not getting paid. I mean I was the things I
was learning at that place, you know, I mean just
learning how to move, learning how to think, you know,
just learning how to put stuff together. It was you know,
a hundred whether I wasn't complaining, you know what. I
(23:18):
didn't mean for it to come out like that. No, No, no,
I don't. I don't mean at all. And I have
the same problem today. It's like it's very hard to
have people that want to actually do that. It's a
very much. You know, You're walking in the kitchen and
they say, well, is there a four one K plan here?
And I'm like wrong question? Yeah, like wrong question. Go
back out, come in and asking that question again. You know,
I tell people like specially when they're going to Coliner
(23:40):
sm like listen, like you know, cooking, if you need
a job to earn a paycheck, cooking is not what
you want to be doing. It's not easy. It's not
you have to love it. You have to be obsessed
about food. And when you take a bite of something,
you know, say it's a I don't know, a Reese's
peanut butter cup. Right, you take a bite of a
Reese peanut butter cup the way I think about a
(24:02):
Reese's peanut butter cups, Like you know, I'm thinking about
all right, the chocolate that's on the edges is like
really kind of thick, and you get a little bit
of a snap to it when you bite it into it.
The chocolate that's underneath it super duper thin, and with
your tongue you can actually like press it and it'll
mush into the peanut butter a little bit. And then
when you bite down the little ridges they kind of
(24:26):
hit your lip here and here and like that. So
that's like this, that's sort of the bite, and then
you're getting like sweet chocolate, sweet chocolate, and all of
a sudden, you know, here's a bunch of salty peanut butter, right,
and what a big crazy gear ship that happens in
your in your mouth. Right, That's how I think about
a Reese's peanut butter cup. And if you don't think
about the food you enjoy, why you enjoy it cooking,
(24:50):
you just it's not for you. It's like it's hard,
it's hard, hard work, and you know, you get burned,
you get yelled at. It's not you know, it's just
not an easy thing for people to keep doing over
and over again unless you love it. You know, you
have to love it. And you you're learning this for nothing.
You moved to California, I mean to Colorado at Cascade
(25:12):
Beautiful Resort, and now you're the exact patroyship. That is
a stunning leap. That's like, come on, ye, So have
you ever lived in a resort town? If I ever
lived in No, I've moved back and forth. I mean
I've gone to them many many times. I've never actually
seen a lot of time. So one of the things
about a resort town is that talent is hard to find.
(25:36):
And in Veil, you know, it's like, you know, the
One Eyed Man as king in the Land of the Blind, right,
and there's just not a lot of people that know much.
And so I got there. I had some buddies from
high school that were kind of waster snowboarders, and I
was like, I left California actually walked out of French laundry.
I was like, just like I felt like somebody took
(25:57):
a bur mixer and kind of blended up my brain,
like I for a year at that place. I was
I was crazy. So I was like, all right, I'm
gonna go hang out. My friends live on their couch
and snowboard. Right. I was done. I just I was broken.
I didn't even know if I wanted to cook anymore.
Like it was crazy. So I was like, all right,
I gotta get a job. After a couple of weeks,
I was like living on my credit cards. So I
gotta get a job. So buddy mine. I knew a
(26:18):
guy who was a room service runner at the Veil Cascade,
at this beautiful hotel, and so he got me an
interview with the chef. I went in there. I was like, look,
I just want to bake bread. Let me come in.
I'm a good bread baker. I'll break you all kinds
of delicious bread. I'll go home. It'll be like a
nice show job. He's like, I I need a bread baker,
but I also need a executive facer chef. And I
(26:38):
was like, I'm twenty two. I was in culinary school.
I worked at the French laundry. I don't know how
to make desserts for people. I just don't know how
to do it. I've never done that and he was like,
you'll figure it out. I love Yeah, Yeah, he's amazing.
His name is Jesse Lapatan, And I was like, I
really don't want to be the executive pacier chef. I
(27:00):
don't know how to do it. I don't have the
I don't have the soul for right now. I'm just
I'm broken. Let me just do my thing. And he
was like, I'm not gonna hire you. I'm only gonna
hire his second of pat. So he was a really
funny guy, and uh, he talked me into him. He's
like the cook whisperer, you know what I mean. Like
I came to him like completely broken. And when I
(27:20):
left there, I was doing sugar sculptures. I was doing
chocolate sculptures. I was carving ice, you know, like I mean,
he just really like, you know, he found me this quivering,
you know, hunk of meat and he built me back
up in New you know, somebody who was actually useful. Again,
that's incredible, what incredible story. Well, he saw something, obviously,
(27:40):
I think he just saw somebody that knew what the
difference between ap flower and cake flower was. Honestly, for
(28:02):
our fourth and final course, I got to ask stuff
about how all that incredible training prepared him for his
own ventures and for all that's next. Turns out, the
beginning of Duff's career working for himself started in a
very humble Baltimore apartment. Well here's what happened. So, um,
I think one of my cousins went to olives in
Boston and uh saw Tied English in there and he
(28:27):
was like, Hey, my cousin is a pastry chef. So
Todd's like, tell him to send his resume. So my
cousin calls me all excited, like Todd Englis told told
me to tell you to send your resume because he
needs a pastry shop, and like he probably says that
to every idiot that walks up to and says, hey,
my cousin's a pastry shop, right, Like what do you say?
You know? So I was like, you know what, I'm
send him a resume. So I did, and then I
(28:48):
got a call and he was like, hey, I'm opening
up a place in d C. Come in interviews. So
I actually ended up moving to d C. Back home,
I was a bread baker there. So then I was
like really close to Baltimore, which is where I went
to undergrad. That where all my friends were, and that's
where all my like musician friends were. So I started
playing music again, like seriously. We started getting good, and
(29:09):
I was like, you know what, I'm gonna move back
to Baltimore. So I left all. I was at Alls
for about a year, moved back to Baltimore in two
thousand two. Open Charm City Cakes so I could pay
the rent. Right, So I was making cakes in my
apartment in Baltimore so I could make enough money that
I could, you know, pay the bills and I could
become a big famous rock star in my emo band,
(29:31):
which was called Two Day Romance. What a great name. Yeah,
it's good. So the thing was we were actually really
good band, and like we were played some pretty big shows,
you know, were like opened up for some really big bands,
and like, you know, we were like we were doing
the thing right. And the thing was, like, you know,
I was still like in my early twenties, so I
(29:52):
was like, if it's good, if I'm gonna be a
like a rock star, it's gonna happen now. It doesn't
happen when you're in your thirties, right, And he likes
the old fat rock start every like young, young fat rocks.
So I was, you know, like trying to be in
a band. And so I was like, all right, I'm
gonna open up. I'm gonna start selling cakes and uh
that's how I'm gonna pay the rent. Well, then all
(30:12):
my buddies were musicians. So my friend Jeff is a musician.
He was like he was working as an architectural model builder,
and he was like, all right, I'm done with this.
You know, I want to do with duffs. Do duf's
like playing music. I've owned the business. So I'm like,
all right, if I'm gonna be on tour for two weeks,
I'm not taking any cake orders and I'm going on tour. Right.
It was great. I was broke, but it was great.
(30:34):
So Jeff is like, all right, I want to work
for you. So I hired my buddy Jeff, and then
my other friend Chris hired him. Basically, were like a
group of dudes working in my apartment and like something
that weird, like word gets out right, like a bunch
of dudes and rock bands are making these like beautiful
Martha Stewart wedding cakes. Like that's a very Baltimore thing,
(30:56):
you know, and so we start to get bigger, you know,
and like you know, and started get more orders and stuff,
and I was like, man, we need some help because like,
I'm not trying to work this hard. So I got
an email from this young lady who was a like
a sophomore at MICA, the Maryland Institute College of Art,
(31:17):
which is the art school in Baltimore, really really good school,
and she's like, I want to be an intern. And
I was like, I don't even have a Health Department certification,
Like I can't have an intern like these place isn't legal.
And so she was like, I really want to know.
I want to work there. I want to make cakes.
I love this stuff. And so she came and I
remember her first day. I taught her how to make
(31:38):
pastiage roses, these you know, little roses out at a
gun bay and she's doing that and I'm making a pug, right,
so I'm carving this cake to look like a dog.
So I'm carving this thing and she's making the roses
and she's like she's like nineteen, like eighteen, nineteen years old.
She's like I think I could do that. And I
was just like, let's like learn how to walk before
(31:58):
you learn how to run, you know what I mean, like,
you know, do the roses. And she's like, okay, I
get it. So I'm like, you know, I'm just doing
my thing. And then she's like, you know, I really
think I could do that. I was like, you know what.
She kind of seems like very sure of herself, and
I was like, whatever, it's his cake. You know, if
she messes up, we can make another. So I give
her the cake and I'm like, all right, go for it.
So she starts going for it, and I'm like, you know,
she never decorated a cake in her life. She's like
(32:19):
carving at it. And then like we iced it together,
you know, I showed her how to is so buttercream.
We put fonding on it, and I give her the
airbrush and she starts airbrush on this thing, and like
she makes a photo realistic looking dog light years better
than anything I would have. And I'm pretty good, right,
I'm a good cake that greater and she absolutely killed
(32:40):
And I was just like, man, you got any friends?
And she's like yeah. So then her roommate showed up,
and her roommate back then is now my g M.
She's running the whole East coast. Yeah, it's crazy crazy.
So then we got all these kids from art school, right,
So it started out just like a bunch of dudes
tattoos and rock bands. And now we have like all
these like kids with like blue hair and you know,
(33:02):
a bunch of like weirdo art school kids. And it
was great because like we were like the stuff that
we were making was just like, you know, there was
no rules like that. You know, there was no there
was no guide book for this, Like there's no like, Okay,
here's how you make a cake that has a motor
in it, right, Like we just had to sort of
figure it out. It was fun. When did a food
network find it? So it was like two thousand and
(33:24):
four and I got invited to compete for Bone Appetite
in Beaver Creek. They had a big bone ampete and
a big and so I was like, yeah, that'd be awesome,
so you know, I could go see all my friends
and bail. So I went to Beaver Creek and I
never competed in a professional cake decorating thing before I've done.
(33:45):
I did like ice carving competitions and like some other stuff,
but never cake decorating. So you know, I didn't really
know what to expect. I get there. I didn't realize
you could have bring an assistant, right, everybody had an assistant.
I didn't. And then there was all these like rules, Right,
you have to stay in your station, you can't like
walk around to the other side of the table. You
get like, this wasn't a televised thing. Long story short,
(34:05):
I broke all the rules. I made an amazing cake,
but like I literally set the table on fire because
I was welding. I brought an arc welder with me
because I was making this crazy big tree. It was
super cool. And so the judges to two of those
judges were on Food Network Challenge, but they went back
to food I mean they were like, hey, there's this kid.
He's like twenty five. He's an idiot, but like he
(34:26):
makes really cool stuff. You should probably have him on
the Food Network Challenge. And so they called me and
they were like, hey, do you want to compete on TV?
And I was like, yeah, sure, you know, so I
asked Jeff. You know, I was like, hey, man, you
want to you want to go do this? It was
actually really good because, like, you know, I'm very from
the hip. My style is very kind of like loosey goosey,
and Jeff is like, you know, he was an architectural
model builder, right he was, you know, and uh so
(34:50):
like our style, it was good. Like we we complimented
each other. And so we started doing those Food Network
challenges like we never we never did good, like we
always our cakes would fall apart, or like we'd come
in like maybe third, you know, or something like that.
We were never waiting. But they kept asking me back,
and like one day, I was like, why do you
guys keep having us back? Like we're not very good,
you know, we're not as good as everybody else. And
(35:10):
they were like, you guys are funny. You're the only
one that tells jokes. And I was like, okay, well
you know I can tell jokes. And uh then they
wanted to get some be wroll and so what they
did was they sent a crew to the bakery. They
come to the bakery, it's all these like dudes, tattoos
and people with blue hair. There's like eleven of us.
And they were like, it's not just you and Jeff,
(35:31):
it's like all these crazy Baltimore kids. And so they like,
you know, they were like we need to make this
into a TV show because you guys are nuts. And
so they showed up with cameras and that was it.
I got tense. How many seasons? Ten season tense? And
it's you know, it's crazy because like you're trying to
run a business like I was, like, I'm trying to
run am trying to run a cake shop, trying to
(35:52):
pay the bills, and like you're also making a TV
show in the middle. It's crazy. Well, it's just if
you speak, if you speak your mind, and it's amazing
that all the bullshit you can cut right through and
people actually see the authenticity. And I think that everybody
sees your authenticity is such to the fact that you've
got like how many of these studios you have now
the cake makes places? Oh man, well we had five,
(36:14):
now we have one. You you open some of the pandemic. Yeah, yeah,
we are pandemic. Like I mean, it was really you know,
you think about like my studios were a bunch of
people come and inside of a building and you know,
a bunch of kids running around decorating cakes, working with
their hands. I know, I had my two daughters there.
We had a blast doing it and there's so there's
(36:35):
it's fun. It's so fun, and it's like so unusual
in the middle of a big city. It's like, let's
go on, let's make some cakes. And you make it
so easy, and it was so well, it was so
smartly organized, and it was such a clean space, and
kids need that kind of vocational sort of stuff that
sometimes the parents, you know, we don't have those things anymore.
Mom and dad. Who knows how to make a cake anymore?
(36:56):
I'm scratch it's hard, yeah, you know it beyond that too.
I mean, there's something that I found and this was
after I opened it that I noticed this, or at
least articulated it. The thing that I love seeing as
kids come in there and you can tell they're a
little aloof and they might be like a little bit,
you know, a little bit nervous about trying something like
(37:16):
this because it's crazy. And when they're done and they're
looking at this thing they made, they're like, I am
a pastry god. You know, just this sense of accomplishment
that you've been able to give somebody And when you
think about like where that can go, and it's I
(37:38):
like to think of like, you know, when when you
give somebody an opportunity to have that sense of accomplishment
for themselves. If that's like a new feeling for them,
well then now it's like, well where else can I
get that feeling? I'm not trying to make everybody into
a cake decreater. I just want everybody to be awesome.
You can be like, wait, I want that sense of accomplishment.
I'm gonna like run sprints every day and you know
(38:00):
I'm gonna run a four four forty and right and
when I hit it right, you know that's it. Like
you know, like I'm gonna see this happen. I can
there's something in my mind that I know that I
don't know how to do. Right now, I'm gonna do it.
You know, I'm gonna do this thing like I'm smart
enough and I can figure it out. So it seems
like you've got a lot figured out, but you know,
you never can figure out a baby. And you have
this beautiful daughter, Josephine. So everything's changed, and what what's
(38:24):
next for you? What's the future look like? The immediate future,
no one knows the full future, but as far as
your brand and your family, you know, where are you going? What?
What do you way you want to go? First of all,
I don't know. I mean the thing is is like
like mentoring kids on kids making championship and um great.
So you know, I've been really just like you know,
with my daughter, like I've been really getting into kids stuff,
(38:45):
like I love I just wrote a kids cookbook, Super
Good Baking for Kids, and it's like it's amazing the
messages I'm getting on Instagram, like hey, my kid has
your book. Look at this cake they just made. She's seven, right,
you know, And it's just like that kind of thing
for me, I think is you know, that's the most rewarding.
I think like doing stuff with kids. Kids are so excited.
(39:07):
A lot of times, like adults, like life has beaten
them down. We lose our, you lose your your joy
and your verb and your curiosity and your your enthusiasm,
you know. And I think like with kids, like they
still got it. But it's like I love doing this stuff,
you know, like I just love it. So I don't know,
I don't know what's next. I don't know what's next season.
(39:28):
But all I know is I've had at delightful hour.
It just flew by. It's just wonderful to talk to you.
You have such a great calm viewpoint of things, and um,
I know it doesn't come from you being calm, because
I don't think you're a calm person. I think that
you know, part part graffiti artists, part musician, part rock
star and great human being. Thank you so much for
(39:51):
spending time with me, Ma Man, Thanks Man, back at
your buddy, Thanks very much for listening to Four Courses
with Jeffrey Zcarean, a production of I Heart Radio and
Corner Table Entertainment. Four Courses is created by Jeffrey Zcarrion,
Margaret Zecarrion, Jared Keller, and Tara Helper. Our executive producer
(40:13):
is Christopher Hasiotis. Four Courses is produced by Jonathan Haws Dressler.
Our research is conducted by Jesselyn Shields. Our talent booking
is by Pamela Bauer at Dogtown Talent. This episode was
edited and written by Priya Mahadevan and mixed by Joe Tistle.
Special thanks to Katie Fellman for help as recording engineered.
(40:33):
For more podcasts from my Heart Radio, visit the I
Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to
your favorite shows.
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