DORIS BURKE AND HOLLY ROWE

Sports TV groundbreakers who represent enduring excellence share their stories of a wonderful, supportive friendship: the fight for respect, their triumphs and challenges, European road trip adventures, and even… differing views on use of the F-bomb.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:10):
Two women are road tripping through Europe, sharing laughs, stories
and adventures as they wind through narrow back roads. They've
been dear friends forever, celebrated together, supported and consoled each other.
Both have faced obstacles and persevered and broken through barriers
in the traditionally male industry, and now they are as

(00:31):
acclaimed and respected in their roles as anyone. Writing Shotgun
in the Little Rental Car is Doris Burke, the first
female analyst for NBA games and first to call men's
n ci A tournament games. For years, Doris also covered
the Women's Championships and w n b A. Behind the
wheel is Holly Row, my colleague and primetime college football broadcast,

(00:54):
the National Championship Game and Heisman Trophy Show. When he's
not working Utah Jazz games or the w NBA, Holly
has covered just about everything in college sports over the
last thirty years. So today I've got Doris Burke and
Holly Row together and this is one of the most
enjoyable conversations in our five seasons. A window into their

(01:15):
friendship and achievements. It's like sitting in the back seat
on one of their road trips. Well, Doris and Holly,
I am so pleased to have us merged together on
this call. Two broadcast icons are not only massively respected
by the people they cover, who are the highest achievers,
most successful people in sports, but also beloved by them,

(01:35):
which is a difficult thing and a different thing. So
what's that like, Holly, to be beloved by the people
that you cover? Because I don't know that you don't
know that feeling. I don't know that I'm beloved. I
think people are very kind, and I think I've been
doing it a long time. I think I learned. Uh,

(01:58):
someone said something really sweet to me when I was
going through my battle with cancer that, um, you've been
coming into our living rooms. You've been a guest in
our home for over twenty years, so of course we
love you. So I thought that was a sweet way
to say it is we're a guest in people's homes. Um,
So I think that's part of it. But then I
think you do go into respect. I always would feel
so secretly pleased every time Doris was doing you know,

(02:20):
the postgame championship, NBA Finals and Lebron's like, you know, well, Doris,
you know, the highest of the high love and respect
her and that always made me feel so proud. So
I think it's just a lot of hard work and
being good at your job where people respect your work ethic,
but also having a good way about you. Chris can
I can I tell a story that will documented exactly

(02:41):
how beloved Holly row is this come back always. But
Gail Guest and Corps at the time was the head
coach at Duke and she has been a multiple final four.
She's experiencing all kinds of success. And you know how
it goes. You're you guys go to football practice, we
go to basketball practice. I'll never forget this. The three

(03:02):
of us are standing at mid court and Holly's relative
not new to women's basketball because she had covered the
w NBA should cover, but new to like covering the
final four, and Gail is going to be in the
final four. This you know, this is happening. And I
don't remember what month it is, but I remember distinctly
Holly looking Gail Guest in course directly in the Ian,

(03:24):
saying to her, now, Gail, have you always been a
control freak? And Gail's even a colored drain from it.
I don't know which way to run, and all of
a sudden just the three of us burst out laughing.
I have witnessed so many times over the years, Chris.
They they love and respect that people have for not

(03:46):
only Holly's work habits, but her passion for both the
sports that she covers and the individual stories, um that
she covers. And I think people can feel that, and
I think they really appreciate that about Holly. Well, they
appreciate that about YouTube doors. That's kind of you to
say that about your friend. But I mean, whether it
is Lebron or Papovitch or Kobe, the legends of coaching,

(04:07):
that the highest basketball minds out there, they respect you.
That's hard one. We'll get into that for both of you.
But also the affection whether it's Drake or anybody else,
I mean big stars, not just athletes and coaches. I
mean that has to feel pretty darn good. Yeah, you know, um, Chris,
I remember saying this before. Um, Holly and I were

(04:30):
both established in our careers prior to the advent of
social media, and it hasn't always been the case that
you know this, There's been this feeling towards me. There
was a long stretch of time where because I was
an analyst on men's college and the NBA. There was
this sentiment coming at me about who is she to

(04:50):
say that she's never played or coach these sports. Obviously
I coached women's basketball, played women's basketball. Um, and I've
said this many times to the player in the coaches
because they have been my soft landing spot. Chris and
I've said this, and I said it to Drake Um
when I finally met him after he put that picture
on his shirt. You know, I said, I really appreciate

(05:12):
that you expressed in your own way respect for my work.
When you hear something's forign to your ear, what's your
first response? We all pulled back from something's different. We
don't know what this is, what to expect. And when
I started, it was unusual, where now it's it's commonplace.
Do you like how she just dropped that in there, like,
you know, when I was talking to Drake, like it's

(05:33):
just such a normal women crush every day. By the way,
with a big face of Doris Burke, I'm surprised you
haven't come up with your line of merchandise there with
your face on. I do want to tell you one
funny story, So I want to give my son mckaylan,
who um, he is the one person in the world
that adores Doris more than maybe her own children. So

(05:54):
my son has been visiting miss Burke since he was
fifteen years old, and he wore this Drake. Sure he
did a post on social media coming into Doris Brooke's
house for Thanksgiving like in any tax drink, and the
very next week Drake posted about Doris. So I just
want mkaylan to get a little credit doors. I just
think he opened up the Drake floodgates a little bit.

(06:18):
I mean, you guys, you know, not exactly overnight successes
racing around the basis to universal applause and the claim.
I mean it has been Um, it has been a struggle.
Doris talked about it. Holly. You come into a variety
of sports, but college football might be one of the

(06:38):
most I don't know, macho masculine, testosterone driven sports there is, right,
and it's a sport not widely played by women, So
you can understand if some neagraaphal mindsets are carrying the
day early on. But but talk about just going into
to this sport and having to win respect and show
you know what you're talking about. Yeah, I had a

(07:01):
couple of funny incidents early in my career, and um,
I'll tell this story about this coach, but I don't
want him to be disparsed. Remember my first feeling of
I'm the woman in the meeting room was with an
old defensive coordinator at Mississippi State named Jolie Dunn, and
I asked a question based on a quote I had
read from him, and he kind of looked up, like

(07:23):
what and and then he answered to Rodney Gilmore and
he wouldn't even look at me. I could just tell
he was so uncomfortable for me to be in the
room and talking and he would look away and answer
someone else. So fast forward twenty years, and you know,
Jolie Dunn and I are fast friends, and and every
stop he's been at he comes and chats with me
and we talk about his extensive video collection and his
family and him, you know, him helping to create the

(07:46):
the unique defense with five defensive bats. Um. So, I
feel like those are the types of stories where they
go in feeling like who's this? But you earn your
way by being good at your job. I've asked plenty
of dumb questions, but I think people know my desire,
and I think they start to learn I'm obsessed with
college football. Like if I wasn't a woman, I would

(08:09):
probably be at the highest level of being an analytic.
No one has watched more college football other than maybe
you and Kirk Herb Street, and in my lifetime, I
can talk to you about label edwards. Um, all of
the coaches that started that offense that then became the
air raid offense, and how that happened with Don Kriel
and then Mike Tleach stole the bay you passing around.

(08:30):
I know how the zone read was invented. You know,
like I know all this this information because I've lived
college football for forty years now at the very most
intense scrutiny level. So um, I feel like I've just
earned it by people understand I'm obsessed with football and
I can speak their language. So we can ask a
trivia question every week in the booth, and Kirk and
I were something how they knew the answer in the field.

(08:51):
I wish you just buzzed in from the field because
you could have saved our team to answer Chris Felika's
trivia question, right, Doris, You know, there are just certain
moments as a viewer, particularly a woman viewer, where it's
really poignant. And for me, the moments where I see
Holly row Say interview Nick Saban or Dabbo and it

(09:12):
maybe a tough moment, and yet they stop, they take
the time and they respectfully answer questions that sometimes aren't
easy to answer or uncomfortable, and uh, you know, I'll
go back to another moment. And there's some women in
the business who are on the text Chaine Jasmindoza Holly
Beth moments, the first time Beth moments called Monday Night Football.
I remember this distinctly. I am in my home in

(09:35):
Rhode Island and tears are streaming down my face because
you couldn't be more right, Chris. Football to me, whether
it's college football or the NFL, are two most popular
sports in this country. When women achieve a measure of
success in those particular fields of endeavor, it is so
powerful to me. Um and it's just, you know, it's

(09:57):
just for me. It's beautiful and it's fun. And then
it's like, oh, my goodness, where is that next generation
of women going to take us? Because you know what,
what I admire about this next generation that Holly and
I have spent our career and I kid you not,
we talked about this all the time. We have spent
our career thinking every year, this is our last. They're

(10:18):
not going to give us another one. We're done, this
is my last gig. And the next generation of women
just know they belong um. There's no I don't know.
I don't know whether like not that they don't face challenges,
but there's a level of confidence to me that I
just love about the women coming coming that are a
little younger than us. I definitely want to circle back

(10:40):
to that and the legacy that both you guys believe
in the impact that you've had. Longevity is interesting, I
don't think because you've both been asked about that, But
longevity in this business doesn't happen, in my opinion, unless
you just love the process. It can't just be about
when the lights on, the games are going on. And
both of you guys just divide our the process practices.

(11:01):
You talked about that, Holly. The meetings are reading, watching tape.
People don't know what goes into it. But I don't
think if you don't embrace that part of it, we're
not sitting here talking about decades of a career, right, Yeah,
you have to love it. And and you know, I've
had an interesting experience with Doris. We went to the
London Olympics together in twelve as fans and it was

(11:23):
so fun because we went to almost all the basketball
We went to t m USA. That was the was
that the Redeemed team Doris with Lebron and Kobe. I
think that's the one they were just doing the documentary about, right,
I think so. I remember us seeing Lebron on the
subway platform in London, remember that, and fans are just
mobbing in and we were like, what's up man? Hy

(11:45):
But um the you know, I just think that the
where we were sitting there watching games and Doris just
loses herself in the basketball and it's like my friends gone,
She's not there. She is so into basketball, and I
keep I just never forget that that's her happy place.

(12:06):
And it's the same way with football and Chris, I
know for you for tennis, of like I get so
lost in the action. I've seen my friend get so
lost in the action that I know that's her happy place.
That's my happy place. So it's the thing I'm most
proud of in my career. To be perfectly honest with you, Chris,
is the longevity. Um. You know, I started in a
very small way when I left coaching, and I often

(12:29):
joked like one of my biggest breaks is doing the
w n b A on radio for the New York Liberty.
There wasn't a person listening, not one. But I love
the process because the travel, you know, being alone in
the hotels and dinners on the rush and this and matter.
If you don't love it, you're not gonna last because
you're away from your family. I have two children, Um,

(12:50):
I now have a grandson. Like Christmas Day will remain hard.
Christmas Eve. I just booked my flight to Boston. Um,
so there are challenges, but it is it's the love
of sports that you cover and the people you cover.
I mean, think about it. Think about some of the
college football games Holly row has has had the opportunity
to cover, really national championships, Alabama's run, you know, so

(13:14):
many different things. We are really as much as I
just talked about some of the hard things, I think
we both know how incredibly lucky we are to do
what we do every day. Yeah, Doris, you took it
the next place I wanted to go, Holly, which was
the championship moments, and and that's why we love what
we do. And you guys have both had extraordinary opportunities
and done tremendous jobs at at being the first to

(13:37):
speak to someone who was won a championship was realized.
A dream has having a life moment, and it's still
very fresh and there you are with the microphone capturing
it and navigating through it, whether it's a trophy of
presentation in the NBA or or or on the field
that a college football championship, or or a Women's College
World Series or w n B A talk about that
just being right there and and and feeling the energy

(14:00):
sort of at the end of a championship arc. It's precious, right,
like we have the best seed in the house to
a very precious moment that will last in time forever.
I remember interviewing steps And Bennett after the Georgia National
Championship game last year and and his emotion and he
had been sobbing on the sidelines, and just um interviewing

(14:22):
that young man. I remember interviewing Hunter Renfro from Clemson
after he catches the touchdown pass with one second left
to upset Alabama. You know, before it was even imaginable
that Clemson could upset Alabama, and um one of my
favorite postgame moments ever. And I think if people really
studied this as journalist, my favorite moment I've ever seen

(14:42):
was when Lebron had made the decision to go to
Miami and all of the scrutiny that came for that,
and Doris interviewed him post game, and it will to
me be the single best question that's ever been asked
any postgame ever because in in two two words, you know,
to two sentences, Doris wraps up leaving Cleveland making the

(15:03):
decision vindication to win a championship with Miami in this
one postgame question, and I think it will go down
as the best question ever asked in sports history. Do
you remember that question, Doris? I don't. I don't. I mean,
I remember all of my interviews with Lebron because they've
been so pivotal. Holly, I'll never Chris. You know, we're
supposed to be impartial on biased observers, and we are,

(15:25):
but at the same time, we are not emote, emotionless
human beings, and this is not the question Holly's talking about.
But when when Lebron went back to Cleveland and won
the title, if you remember distinctly, as soon as the
buzzer sounded, he had this well of emotional he started
to cry. And see Holly picked up on this, Mike

(15:46):
greenstat guy Dave Free picked up on this, but very
few people picked up on it. You know, you have
to remember, I have children right in the window of
these NBA players in terms of their age, and so
it's interesting for me because sometimes I view it through
the prism of my twenty eight year o son. You know,
it's weird because he's not you know, his seasoned golf
as his profession, but whatever. But but I remember watching

(16:07):
Lebron cry. Chris and Holly. I don't know if this
has ever happened to you. I would assume it is
because you are carrying emotional person. But like Chris, when
Lebron cried and he's shuddering and he's down on his knees,
I got choked up, like I can feel the water
in my eyes, and I'm thinking, oh my God, pull
yourself together. You gotta ask questions, and you could hear

(16:32):
my voice crack and whatever question I asked, and Dave
Free was the first person to set at my green stacks.
Were you crying? I said, I didn't cry, that's the
personal crying of basketball. But I was. And it was
really just about this man. This meant so much to him.
All of us, know, anybody who covers sports. There is injury,
there is sadness, there's joy, there's collective spirit moving towards

(16:56):
this ultimate goal. But you pay a heavy price to
get there, and sometimes that bears down on you in
the in the midst of that, Holly, have you ever
had that happen where you you've gotten caught up in
the emotion. Oh my gosh. Yeah. And I'm not always
proud of it because you're You're right, we're trying to
be unbiased journalists, but I am. You know me, I'm
a softie, and I've had it happened a couple of

(17:17):
times where, Um, I can remember Pat Summit had died
and Candice Parker, her beloved player for the Tennessee Balls,
was playing in a w NBA game that night. Has
a tough comeback when and I interviewed Candice in the
post game and she just breaks down sobbing. Um, you
know that was for Pat. That was for Pat, and
that that got to me because Pat Summitt had just

(17:39):
died that day, and that one was really tough. I
don't think human if you do not feeling that. I mean,
we do this because we like human beings immediately, like
the competition in the strain, and we all like the
collective joy. But the other side that I'm talking about,
old Softie, I find myself being upset for the losers,
the people on the other end of this. They're not

(18:00):
holding the trophy. They had their dreams crushed, and it's
it's it's also fresh in the moment and whether it's
in tennis, and yeah, you've seen I've covered Serena Williams
great moments. I've covered some heartbreaking moments. Same thing for
Roger Feder Rafael on the doll And you have a
feeling for these people because, like Lebron, you've seen a
lot of their arc You've seen them kind of grow
up and mature and man, I don't know, Yeah, I've

(18:22):
had to try to hold it together, not just for
the joy, but just the pain on the other side
of it when they they come short of their dream. Yeah,
we're human, right when Super just retired. I really struggled.
If you know me well and you go back and
listen to our interview, you can hear my voice. I
am struggling to interview her because I'm I turned to

(18:44):
look at Sue and she has a tear coming down
her face and she's like, this is really sad, and
I just I'm like, yes it is. I'm glad I
wasn't in London when Roger Federer just retired, because he's crying,
the dolls crying, everybody's cry. I don't think I would
have been able to keep it together. So I'm kind
of relieved they didn't have that assignment in some way.

(19:07):
You know, the the love of sports can can be
passed down by generations. It can skip a generation. My
parents didn't know where I care about sports at all.
My grandmother was the one who got me into it.
I owe my career to her love and passion for sports.
So you guys have referenced being moms. I wonder do

(19:28):
your kids share your passion for sports? Do you talk
sports with them or is it like mom, that's just
mom's work. We're over three. We're over three in that category.
Her two children and my son, no, really, there's anything
wrong with that, Not that there's anything wrong with that.
My son's an actor in the theater, her daughter Sarah's

(19:50):
in the theater as an attorney. Her son Matthews in
the gulf. Like we're over three and it's hard, really, Doris,
you ever want to talk about nicole Yo kitchen? The
inverted pick and roll? And there's just enough. So, Uh,
my daughter, we joke all the time with her husband.
She's like, pick and roll this, pick and roll that roll.

(20:14):
My son is um a little more into it, you know,
so he'll he might. It's but it's the tree top
storylines you know that are being discussed on every talk show. Um,
and that's the direction he and I will go. But
it's so funny, yuh Ali. You know, I keep saying
to my daughter, who's just had her first baby, I'm like,

(20:36):
you can expect one thing or another, but life is
going to take you where it's gonna take you, and
there's no predicting it, so be prepared. Well, maybe it's
a grandmother. You can get that that young child into
sports the way minded and give the great gift of
understanding the passion and the joy of this profession. Oh,
I literally cannot wait. I can I have a baseball glove,

(20:58):
I can catch, I can rebound with the best of them.
Whatever Harris wants to do for I am there for him. Well,
we're having this conversation because Holly and I had a
dinner recently in Columbus on a nice Friday night dinner
which doesn't happened and often enough. Well, start talking about
traveling and Holly, you just mentioned that the two of
you travel together. Holly, and I don't know whether it

(21:19):
is a film on Louise, which is a reference that
only be able to a certain age to understand. I'm
imagining these two badass women road tripping around Europe. But
tell me, Holly, a travel story of you two guys, uh,
you know, away from sports and just enjoying what the
world has to offer. Yeah, we started traveling together about
ten years ago, and we've had some really good, um journeys.

(21:41):
I would say I have two really great I mean,
I have a lot of great memories. And this is
kind of a fun thing because Doris keeps a journal
everywhere we go. So we'll get to a new location
and she'll buy a little notebook and so she has
documented our meals are tours. Are you know We've gone
on a mop head through Kianti and had a wine
tour and then cooked at the end. Um we've we've gone.

(22:05):
I'm trying to think of all the dramatic ones we've
gone to Normandy together. I think that was maybe one
of our most powerful trips stories, if you would agree
with that. I think that was maybe one of our
most powerful moments, is walking up the hill in Normandy
and just weeping at the cemetery. I thought that was
a special moment. I remember a roundabout in Paris where
we were trying to I was driving. I have made

(22:27):
the mistake of driving on many of these trips, and um,
I remember us trying to get off that big famous
roundabout in Paris and it took us like ten times.
We're about ready to throw up because I can't merge
over in the lane and We're going around this roundabout
and it's getting scary and I'm like how. And then
there was the time that I was driving in Porto

(22:48):
Fino down these you know, back and forth Italian cliffs
while I was putting on the story Chris Falor because
she's not going to do it justice so we're coming
back from province. Holly wanted to see the lavender field.
I can't even but I think you're right. It's a
windy road and obviously you know the sidometer is in

(23:11):
kilometers and all I know is that sucker is tilted
far right. Chris Fowler and anything those Holly row knows
how much Muscara she puts on. He's got the thing
full tilt to the right. And my girl is looking
in the rear view mirror putting on m scara and
I am losing my damn mind from a Scara two

(23:35):
down and try. I could not believe what she was doing.
I'll be damn that she didn't do it, Chris putting
it on, going down the road. She's out of her mind, Holly.
She was right to correct me in that moment. I
was inappropriate, and so she has a certain tone in

(23:56):
her voice that when she uses it it scares me.
And I knew in that moment I was in trouble. Um.
But we've had some really great trips. I mean, we've
gone to Capri, We've gone to Portofino, Positano, like London,
like Como. Oh my gosh, Venice are are walking wine
tour in Venice was one of my favorite. You know,

(24:16):
we went to the local places and had grafa and
that was last. Um. My other favorite place we've gone,
Doris was Most St. Michel off the coast of France,
where it's his island out off the coast of France
that when the tide comes in, you can't you couldn't
access the island. And when the tide goes out, there
was a walking road that you can walk out to

(24:38):
the island and now they drive out to the island.
And we stayed on that island Mont St. Michel, and
that was one of the cooler nights I think we've
ever had, Doris. What do you think? Yeah, I agree?
And what what amazed me about that experiences We're sitting,
we're we're sort of on a ledge in this medieval
type village, showed stone walls everywhere, and we're out looking
at the water and we have been warren. You know,

(25:00):
don't be on the flats there when the water comes in, Chris.
That water moves so fast that if you were not
on dry land in a safe space, at a speed
at which that water came into Mont St. Michel, and
it's so funny because Mike Breen, obviously, you know, the
great voice of the NBA Finals, um is, likes to
travel and he had always tried or wanted to go

(25:22):
to monts Michelle and couldn't believe we found a room there. Holly,
I don't know how you did that. And then you
mentioned Normandy Chris. Um. For anybody that that enjoys history, UM,
you know you hear all these stories about D Day.
We commemorated it every year. Um. When you see the
topography there, when you are actually standing on the beach

(25:45):
and then you tried to navigate your way up, you understand, um,
what exactly happened on that particular day, and you marvel
at the result of the Allies and they're just ire
to to to conquer not only the topography, but to
absorb the massive, massive losses that they did and continue

(26:08):
on the journey to try to rescue you know, the world.
It really And then after you've seen the topography, you
then go to the to the space that they have
set aside for the fallen soldiers, and you know it's
it is dead quiet, like it is so silent and

(26:30):
respectful and somehow beautiful in this space. Um, I would
encourage anyone who has the opportunity to go and to
do that. It is one of the most memorable things
I've ever experienced. Yeah, that's perfectly said covering the French shop.
And I've gone to Normandy a couple of times. And
when you step away from the world of seeing a

(26:51):
tennis ball smacked around at clay court and being absorbed
in that silliness for a couple of weeks, and you
you go to that that place, and I think that's
the beauty of power of travel though you you have
your spirit reawakened, you understand perspective and learned so much
and am envious of all these trips you guys have taken.
I mean, you clicked off some really beautiful spots around Europe.

(27:12):
And I'm curious because you guys are both such, you know,
tremendous preparers and planners. I imagine you so organized, Holly,
is every second of these trips choreographed and planned out?
To a tea or you'd like to get away from
that world and just kind of wing it when you
guys travel together. So we've done it both ways. Were
early in our travels together, we made the mistake of

(27:34):
over planning and hitting too many stops, and I remember
I could, yes, I remember two times vividly Doris being like,
all right, sister, I'm done with this. What the hell
are you doing to me right now? Chinqui Terra? She
was like we were on a train. I remember in
Chinqua Terra and her just being like, I've seen enough,
stop it. And then I learned from that that we

(27:55):
we hit too many spots, you know, in one trip,
and so we've learned. So this last uh A summer
ago we went to Greece and we only hit two spots.
So we've learned as we've traveled. So we only did
anthants in Santorini and we kind of stayed put. But
we did it in a fun way. Why I like
really traveling with Doris is when we laugh our ass off.

(28:16):
I mean we laugh and laugh and laugh. Um. But two,
she's interested in the world, and so like I would
give her an assignment. Hey, we're going to her cullennium.
You're in charge of researching her cullennium, or I'm in
charge of researching enormity, you know, so that that while
someone's striving or while the person is going, you're you're
reading to me or talking to me about what we're

(28:37):
gonna see, where we're gonna go. So we tag team
at which I've had found very fun and interesting. Like
she'll say, all right, you're in charge of three these
two nights for dinner in in EA on Santorini, and
so I find us a place there, or the other
two nights she's got us a wine tour, and so
we really tag team and it's awesome. Um, she talks,

(28:57):
she journals everything. So I one day, well, we need
to publish these journals Doors, because we've we've had some
interesting experiences. But then the other cool thing and we've
done over the years that I thought was a good
idea for travelers is when we start the trip, we'll
put like two thousand euros in my Fannie pack and
so we're not arguing over who's paying for dinner or
who's paying for this taxi. We pool our our funds

(29:19):
and then I just pay for everything out of the fanny.
Like we've figured out some cool buddy system travel tips. Um,
maybe in our old age, Doors, we'll have a show,
a travel show. I'd watched that show. Come on, do
you guys talk sports at all or or sports totally
off limits? Or is TV totally off limits? Is that
not part of the vacations. We talked about everything, everything, men,

(29:47):
um sports. I mean it's fun. Doors says this all
the time that you know you can count on one
hand the people you can truly trust in the TV business,
and I think that we trust each other. So we
do talk a lot about work and navigate in our workplace.
And hey, this happened to me. What do you think
There's been many a late night I call her, this happened.
What should I do? And She'll say, you can't say that.

(30:08):
Stop it. You know, she's taken me off a couple
alleges in my life. Um, but we talked about everything
terms the Luxembourg garden story, Doris, Oh my god, that
was one of the hardest times I have ever laughed
in my life, and for for the longest duration. Now listen, Chris,

(30:29):
I'm gonna just I'll start the story and she can
finish it. So we're in the Luxembourg gardens and uh,
this is a rare time that we well, we didn't
even plan that we were going to stay put for
so long, but on every single trip we take, we
have we go in with an idea of there's going
to be a cocktail that is essentially the theme of

(30:51):
the trip, and in France it was the care Royale
for for obvious reasons. Champagne is never a bad idea.
And if you want to spruce it up with a
little raspberry, look for that's okay. And so we order
a cure Royale because there's a beautiful cafe in the
middle of the garden and it's it's massive and beautiful
and there are people everywhere doing their thing, walking, babies

(31:14):
with strollers, couples hand in hand, you name it. We
order a cure Royale. Off comes the waiter. About ten
minutes later, would you ladies like another? And I mean,
we don't have missed a beat, of course, and existing
lin however, he says it in this French accent, I
won't even try. But he said, perhaps you should order
the bottle. He did and it wasn't one. How do

(31:39):
you speak French? You probably did the ordering on that trip.
I did. Um well, I mean you, guys, I appreciate
and enjoy both of your persona's on the air and Holly,
I obviously no from working doors, I don't know the
last time we were in the same building. But I
imagine that this is a great collaboration traveling and just

(32:02):
in general and as a friendship because you aren't the
same Doris. You have a kind of a Northeast can
I say, g I mean kind of that that person
Holliday like the dead mother to all of color sports?
Is it a nice mix? But contrast to personalities in
this friendship and your conversations in your travels, Doris, what

(32:23):
how do you have me saved in your phone? That
might explain it? Oh my gosh, this is perfect. Glinda,
you are you familiar? Yes, the good witch and the
good which from wicked, the happy, the always upbeat. Um.
You know, she's just such a good spirit. I've said
this before and and you know this, Chris, you know

(32:46):
the chemistry can't be seged. A good broadcast team hits
the listener's ear easy, Um, and you you can't manufacture it.
It exists or it does not. And part of what
makes a great team is, Yes, you have to have
people who know what they're doing and know what's important

(33:07):
in the telecast, but you also have to have great teammates.
It's about teammate skills. You know, the viewer doesn't know
how many people contribute to your Saturday college football telecast.
You have the best of the best in positions across
the board, camera, takeum, on air, talent, producer, director, you
name it, and every single one of those people has

(33:29):
to do their job well. And if one falls short
at some point, maybe the viewer doesn't feel it, but
you all will step off as telecast and got maybe
we could have done this or that better. What I've
always appreciated about Holly is I think she's one of
the best teammates I've ever had in a telecast. It's
about what is good for the broadcast, and and if
she expresses frustration, it's from a good place because she

(33:52):
wants the viewer to feel as we feel so fortunate
to be watching UM and so it's so interesting people
perception of me. I think Holly would tell you, like
you said, edgy, I find that hysterical because I feel
like I'm the nicest person in the world. Oh no,
I'm not saying that. Edgy doesn't mean not nice. It
just means you're book Providence Northeast. It's just a different

(34:14):
it's a different place than Utah, I don't know. I'm
not offended, Chris. I actually it's just so funny, right,
And this goes to what Holly said about we come
into your living rooms, but you never know how the
viewer is feeling you or accepting you, or whatever the
case may be. And I think all of us, you know,
regardless of what anybody says, every announcer wants to be like, yes,

(34:37):
you want to be highly competent, and not everybody, you know,
not every announcer is for everybody. I know, I have
my favorites. You probably have your favorites that you enjoy
listening to. But yeah, absolutely Edgy's a Jersey girl. Yeah,
I understand. I've been called I've been called overly intense. Edge.
I mean, I think you are misunderstood. That's that you

(34:57):
take a serious approach to your job, be a very
high standards for yourself. You want to meet them. If
you don't, it bothers you. You want to be surrounded,
as you said, by other people who have high standards.
And and we're fortunate in our football broadcast as you are.
You know, the Krendla Krema in the NBA world. But
but yeah, it could be misinterpreted as being like, you know,
one lane or intense or edgy or even sometimes but

(35:20):
there's there's no time for politeness all the time. Even
Hollywood agree with that. No, she's taught me a lot.
She's taught me a lot. So Number one, she taught
me the effort. I never ever see the effort in
my life. Never. I would cringe every time I heard it.
And then I got to be good friends with Doris,
and I distinctly remember we went out to visit her
and her family. We get home to Utah and my

(35:42):
son starts saying the F word left and right, and
I'm like, you can't. We do not say that word
in our home, young man. And he's like, well, Mrs
Burke says it. So um, she has taught me there's
a good time in an appropriate moment and dropped that
net bomb, and uh, she's also taught me to not
let people walk over you, like sometimes you have to

(36:02):
stick up for yourself. And I think that that's a
good skill that she saw me. We can say podcast tours,
but I thank you for not drowing. Probably just reacted
right there. You're disreacted with horror. We're not regulated by
the FCC. It is my worst quality. I am profane.
I am not proud of it. I've tried many times
and these strategies to stop cursing. It is just part

(36:25):
of my lexicon. And I will say this sometimes Chris, like,
don't you agree there's no other word? What the F word?
That is appropriate to the moment? So yes, and it's
appropriate to so many moments. But uh, but thank you
for not making it an F bomb fest here because
people might get a little horrified. I want to shift gears.

(36:45):
How you you have inspired so many people in so
many ways, but one confronting cancer, which was melanoma. You
did that in a rather quiet way. And then when
cancer came back and tumors were discovered in your lung
and you band through that. I mean I know that
that you were shower with love and appreciated what you

(37:05):
do for living in a different way because of the
way that your work could touch people and the energy
they get back to you. How has that forever sort
of changed your perspective? Coming through that, the horrors and
the fears of of a grave cancer diagnosis, you know
it changes you forever. I feel like, um, you know,

(37:25):
I was stage four metastatic cancer which is a deadly diagnosis.
And I've been very lucky that immunotherapy has saved my life. Um,
but it's changed me forever because I live better, I'm
more joyful, I am a bucket list and I think
Doris can tell you, I'm I can do some crazy stuff.
I'll be like, we're that's it, We're skinny dipping and capri.

(37:47):
We're going for it. We're gonna live life large. Um.
I think my given F. I don't want to say it,
but given you know given F filter is off from
cancer because you just learned that of your life. Um.
But I do want to take this second because I
don't know if I've ever told her this, and I
will cry if I say it. But Uh, when my

(38:07):
cancer returned and it had spread and it was looking
pretty scary, Doris had said to me, have you contacted
the V Foundation. We have resources at the ESPN. You
need to contact the V Foundation. And she called Carol Stiff,
who is a woman that worked at our company for
a long time. And Carol got me on the phone
that day with the executive director Susan Braun of the

(38:30):
V Foundation, and they got me into the top melanoma
doctor in the world works that U c l A.
Dr Antoni Ribas and he has saved my life with
a clinical trial in immunotherapy. And so I don't want
to overstate this, but Doris, I never would have thought
to call the v Foundation. I never would have thought
to reach out and have someone help me like that.

(38:52):
So you know, my friend has been there through it.
We've laughed our asses off, we have laughed and laughed,
Our kids love each other, We've had a great relationship.
But she has helped saved my life. Now do you
how do you say thanks to a friend for that?
Because I would have never called. I would have never
gotten that help with our Chris, like you just talked

(39:14):
about how beloved Hollie is. I don't think what people
realize is you know how tough she is. You look
at Holly how to Hollie five three five three, Um,
that's one tough package of five three inches tall and
what she did for the love of her sports in

(39:35):
the midst of it. I mean, she's on chemotherapy and
she's told a couple of stories about being in a
hotel room. And I'll be honest with you, Chris, I
don't know how a woman with Holly's travel schedule could
maintain the standards she did while she's literally fighting to

(39:56):
save her life. You know, you see those video footages
of Stuart Scott who we all miss and him in
kickboxing or m m A training in the midst of it,
and you're just marvel at people's toughness and grip and
desire to survive. Just say, hollyrow is one of the

(40:17):
toughest people I know, one of the kind is, certainly,
but one of the toughest people I know to it.
Pulled through that, and I mean stage four is stage four,
Stage four, Chris, you have to be covering sports. I
believe it was the day before one surgery, Hilley, and
then you're covering the w n b A in and
around treatment. How how did you do that? You know?

(40:42):
I think you and I were talking about this at
dinner the other night, about what keeps you going in life,
and I look back on it now and I feel
like I was a complete psycho. But I felt like
getting two games kept me living. And I don't know
how to explain that any other way. That if I
wit and I sat on my couch and felt sorry
for myself, I thought I was going to die, and

(41:04):
I just had to keep going and improve to myself
that I could get to that event and I could
get it done because that's where my joy was. Like
being at the game was where my joy is. And
um gosh, I look back on it now, I really
don't know how I did it. You know, there were
times I could barely walk because my chemotherapy was impacting

(41:24):
my feet and my joints, and you know, I would
I would stagger off the sideline thinking I can't walk.
Tonight I can't walk. But I don't know. I don't
want to sound like I did something great. There's people
going through a lot worse than I did, But I
do hope that it gives people inspiration. It's like, you
just have to keep going. And I don't know how
to say it any clearer than that is, whatever your

(41:45):
piece of joy and whatever you find joy doing, you
have to keep finding it or or it gets really
hard in those moments. But every single person that expresses
that and lives that the way that you did does
give other people strength, And so thank you for that gift.
We're wrapping up. We're not wrapping up. We're kind of
in the middle of our college football season, but we're

(42:06):
headed towards the home stretch doors. You were just launching
into the NBA season, which isn't what eight months sort
of marathon. There's really no other seasons where it's quite
like it. Are Are you ready for the I don't
want to call it grind because that makes it feel
like it's not fun, But you know there are times
when it's I'm sure it's a test of stamina and
midst all the other joys that you get for a

(42:27):
long season that's going to wrap up with you covering
the finals. Yeah, I don't know, It's been several years
since I've been this excited, and I think it goes
to several things. It certainly goes to you know, we're
as close to normal as we can be. We're finally
you know, courtside, we're finally requesting players to sit down
with this pregame, and you know that's so critical to

(42:48):
what we do, the opportunity to speak face to face
and get the perspective the players and then be able
to share that. And and I do think, you know,
from a talent perspective, the league is an incredible hand um.
You know, Lebron's pursuit of Kareem Abdul Jabbar's all time
scoring mark, which many people thought, you know, it's not
possible to attain. How does Golden State whether the indelible

(43:12):
image of um you know, him punching Jordan Pool in
the face. You know, they're the defending champion, they have
this incredible window. But that changes a team, and what
does that look like. I'm on a flight Wednesday night
to Golden State. My game's Friday, but I need to
be at practice and in the facility on Thursday to feel,
to feel what's happening there. And so, hey, I I

(43:36):
can't wait, Chris. I'm I'm you know, can't wait. And
it doesn't feel ill. I will look up and it
will be February and the playoffs will be, you know,
six weeks away, and the enthusiasm will go off the
charts again. And so I can't wait. I absolutely cannot wait.
And how you work the jazz game, so there's no

(43:56):
break for you. We we we shut it down. College
football used to die right into about three or four
more are sports. I mean, it's really kind of it
feels like it's around the calendar for you almost Yeah,
I'm lucky. I have my first men's college basketball game.
We've got the Champs Classic with National Champs Kansas coming
up in two weeks I think two and a half weeks,
and then women's basketball. My one of my first big

(44:17):
women's games is Yukon Notre Dame, which is going to
like this year, that's going to be a really big game,
and then NBA. So, I mean, I'm addicted to sports.
I just feel like, instead of apologizing for it anymore,
I'm just going to embrace it. Yes I'm crazy and
I'm a psycho, but i just really love what i'm doing.
What would Field saying, find do what you love, and
you'll never work a day in your life. It's just

(44:38):
not work. To me, it's fun. It's still crazy, Chris.
I've heard you say you never work a day in
your life. I get that in that we love our jobs,
but I don't say that it's not work. It's hard
ass work sometimes to get into the plane. And I mean,
you know you're you're studying a subject you love, but
you're still working. I'm I'm gonna try to adopt more

(45:00):
that attitude, Holly, But I get what you're saying. I
don't know how she keeps up with it. Chris, Like,
I remember giving up the w n b A and
women's college basketball and being like, oh my god, this
is awful. I'm not a part of it. One of
my funnest periods of all time was Holly Dave O'Brien
and I calling the women's national championship for like ten years,
and it was one of the most special times in

(45:22):
my life. But then I now have a little bit
of work, like balance, and I can cover just the
thirty teams the NBA, And meanwhile she's making me feel
like a slouger. She makes us all feel that way
at all. I want to talk about a word that
as you get to a certain age, you begin to

(45:43):
think about it a little bit. You don't obsess with it,
But that's that's legacy. And you, guys, by being so
excellent for so long, by breaking through barriers, by setting examples,
by expanding people's idea, specifically women's idea of what is possible,
we'll leave a legacy. So I'd like to allow yourselves

(46:05):
to think about that for a little bit. Whether it's
this generation Doris, you mentioned people who are coming up
in the business maybe they were in college, maybe they're
just starting out, maybe they are younger than that. Maybe
they're the daughters of those women. And it's not just women,
it's guys too. The inspiration and the legacy for a
number of generations to follow. Just because you're doing what
you love and doing it so well for so long,

(46:26):
can you can you just reflect on that for a second, Holly,
and allow yourself. I think Doris will be better than
me at this because I think she is very aware
of her responsibility as the first. We've had a lot
of conversations of you know, she's the first to be
calling NBA games on ESPN as an analyst, and I

(46:47):
think there there is a bearing of responsibility and a
weight that comes with that. I hope that my legacy.
I don't think about it often, but I do hope
my legacy will be um that you can do it.
I am just like the world's most normal you know,
maybe nothing special about me, normal girl from Bountiful, Utah.
Not the prettiest, not the smartest, not that not that

(47:10):
anything ust, but worked hard, loved her job and did
it at a really high level. Is that you can
do it? I hope that's my legacy to a lot
of people. If you love it, you can do it,
put the work in, and and maybe also teaching young
people how to work. I think that young the younger generation,
and I don't want to use the world entitled, but
we're still grinding. I mean, if you still I think people, Chris,

(47:32):
if they saw your work. You said something to me
the other day. I found fascinating fifty hours of work
that you put in a week for a four our
football game. Young people need to know how to work,
and that's a legacy. And teaching people. You know, you
had some young men on our bus that you're trying
to teach them how to do play by playing what
your job is. I think that's a legacy that we

(47:52):
all owe to the next generation, is mentoring and helping.
But Doras you speak to it better because like you've
there bore in a great responsibility with your your platform.
Now I want to just want to follow up on
something he said. For you, it's been about the work.
But I think the other thing that you've done is
you've had this incredible grit, which maybe you know, according
to people in research, the most important determinant of long

(48:13):
term success. Because I don't know how many years it
took you to get to the number one spot on
college football, but probably longer than maybe it should have
for a variety of different reasons that women face in
this business. Um, But the fact is, you never stopped
working through every disappointment, you know, through every time you

(48:34):
were not given that number one position on the college
football despite your love and passion and knowledge and all
those things. So I would just say, I think grit
is part of your legacy, and it speaks to success
in the business. I don't give it some much thought,
to be honest with you, Chris, I just love basketball.
It has shaped my life since I was seven years old,

(48:54):
and I think about sometimes is because I do know
there were many people who paved the way before I came.
Robin Roberts, you know, Jackie McMullen sitting on the sideline
and next to red hour back and hearing some things
over there. So I'm not the first, and I certainly
haven't experienced some of the ugliness that women before me did.
The only thing I would say is, you know, because

(49:14):
I am an analyst in those spots, I just I
would like to think and hopefully the path of the
person who does it after me maybe is a little
bit easier because I've done it well enough. You know
what I'm saying that I didn't make the path of
somebody behind me harder because that would break my heart. Yeah,
I think that, you know, legacy, you get wrapped up

(49:35):
an ego if you think about it. So I appreciate
that neither of you'd really spend much time on that.
We're talking about the present and what it took to
get here. I was simply talking about what it might
mean in the future to some young girl to say,
Holly Road, Doris Burke. You know, I remember them when
I was a little girl. They made it seem like
things are possible. All things are possible if I do

(49:56):
work hard, if I do bring authentic passion to some things.
So that's what I think is undeniable. You guys are
not gonna probably acknowledge that. Holly, you are way too
modest in your assessment. Your message is powerful, but you're
way too modest. But I think there's going to be uh,
I know there's going to be women and young young
guys too who will look at your example and say, hey,
you know what that was so important to me? In

(50:18):
an early stage. So I had a cool thing happened
Saturday at our game, Chris. I was at Florida State
and this young man who is delivering the footballs into
the game on the sideline for Clemson and Florida State
um asked if he could meet me, and he said,
I've been watching you my whole life. And I said
how old are you? And he said, I'm twenty two
And I thought, you know, this is my twenty seventh

(50:39):
year doing college football. He literally has watched me on
college football his entire life. And I love that that
needs something to him and he wants to meet me.
That that made me feel really good. I think that
that's something that all three of us should be proud of,
is we have been the voice of the sports that
all that this generation has heard their whole life. You know,
we've all been in it now twenty five plus years,

(51:00):
all three of us. And so you think of the
legacy of where the voice they hear on college football.
You're the voice they hear on tennis, Chris Doris, You're
in the NBA game. Most of these kids grew up
hearing you in the NBA two K game. That's a
that's a compliment and an honor that their whole lives,
we get to be the narrators to their sports experience
and that's a great obligation but also great honor. You know, Chris,

(51:23):
you mentioned as the spaces we're in they don't like
because we've been there so long, we've worn their ass out,
so to speak, Chris, like, they just accept that we're
part of their sports experience. And I will say, for
both genders, that's really really cool. Well you guys, I say,
I said, I've used the word overused probably the word
inspires for so many, so many different ways. But this friendship,

(51:44):
this conversation you've had, the stories, the laughs that tears.
Thank you so much for sharing that as well, because
I think it's inspiring to see people who who love
each other and carry for each other so much and
share so much in common and even though they're you're
different people. So thank you for that gift today, guys.
And it's been a it's been a pleasure and honor
and and uh, I can't thank you enough. Thanks Chris,

(52:06):
thanks for having us, Thanks for having us, Holly and Doris,
your ef and welcome. That was so much fun for me.
I'm just grateful we could align their very busy schedules.
And isn't it important to have supportive, enduring friendships where
you can just talk about personal and professional challenges and

(52:29):
just laugh like Holly and Dorris do. Thanks as always
to Jennifer Dempster, my co executive producer, and the team
at Octagon who editor episodes. I'll talk to you soon
with another season five episode of Fowler. Who You Got