HANGIN' WITH WINNERS

Author Ray Cole on fulfillment and success. Anecdotes, wisdom and suggestions from inspiring figures, including Michael J. Fox, Bob Iger, Diane Sawyer, Dick Vitale, Jay Williams, many more

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hanging around people who have acquired wisdom achieved happiness. Listen
as they talk about what has helped them succeed, and
take it from me. There's plenty we can borrow and adapt.
It will help us thrive. My guest, Ray Cole, has
done that during his five decade career as a respected
television executive, and Ray wrote a book all about it,

(00:20):
Hanging with Winners. He shares wisdom from dozens of inspiring
figures like Michael J. Fox, Jimmy Kimmel, Diane Sawyer, Robin Roberts,
sports figures like Dick By tal and Jay Williams, and
elite executives like Bob Iger of Disney and George Bodenheiber,
who ran ESPN. In this conversation, Ray and I touched
on themes like leadership, integrity, curiosity, gratitude, acceptance, and many

(00:44):
more principles that helped create success. You've talked to and
been involved with so many successful people, and there's different
definitions for success, and there's many qualities that go into
that depending on the individual in the circumstances. But what
a common threads rated you find them on people who
have who have been inspirational defied odds and achieved. And

(01:08):
I don't mean just financial success, and I don't mean
even success as defined by others, but in their own way.
When I set out to write this book, what I
wanted to accomplish was helping people learn from others in
a way where they could maybe shape their own destiny,
where they could learn lessons from others, recognizing that being

(01:33):
a winner is not a word that you put on
a resume or in a bio, but it is a
word that means different things to different people, but ultimately
it conveys a happiness and a level of success, hopefully
in your life in a way that goes beyond the
traditional definition of being successful, much as you pointed out.

(01:55):
So what are some of those things? All the people
we talked to we interviewed over eighty people for the book,
they would all start with something that is really foundational,
and that's your character. And in a word, that flows
from character is your integrity and how you have to
build that, You have to protect it, you have to
guard it um and you have to use it. And
what flows from character then is what they would all

(02:17):
cite as truly foundational, which is showing others and treating
others with kindness and respect and empathy. So that's where
I would start foundation one. And then what was interesting
to me was how many people that we interviewed, how
many winners cited the trait of curiosity being and remaining curious. UM.

(02:40):
That wouldn't be that surprised you a bit. That wouldn't
have been what you might expected to hear one of
the top things that the successful people. It wouldn't have
surprised me that it was on the list. Uh. And
in my chapter seven, where we bring all the wisdom
from the previous six chapters together in a little nugget, US,
I wouldn't have surprised me that it was on the list.

(03:03):
It surprised me that it was cited so often, so
frequently as something that is truly critical, you know. And they,
you know, when they would cite that, what they would
do is they would talk about, um, the importance of
curiosity when it comes to developing new relationships. They would

(03:24):
talk about how important it is to you know, helping
you shape your perceptions UH and ideas UH. And people
people like Bob Iger and people like George Bodenheimer. They
talked about curiosity from the standpoint of how important it
was because it oftentimes can serve as the basis to
challenge outdated assumptions, you know, And so I remember, I

(03:50):
think it was Bob Iger who said, you know what,
curiosity is too oftentimes the fuel source for winning decisions.
And if you don't have that fuel source filled up, uh,
you may not make the right decision, or at least
the best decision you could. You're right both about George
Boden Iber ran ESPN for years, superbolate, with such a
decency in humanity, not always qualities that are top of

(04:13):
mind when you think of the stereotypical TV executive. But
he had them, and so did Bob Iger, and he's
one of the great CEOs that's ever been running any company.
You wrote three words that I've never seen put together
that uncertainty fuels him. Right, that's extraordinary because uncertainty for
so many people is just a source of anxiety. It's

(04:35):
a source of fear, so fear that can lead to paralysis.
And how could uncertainty be used as fuel when you're
making decisions to run a multibillion dollar corporation? Yeah, that
is right out of the Bob Iger profile. Uncertainty fuels Bob. Um.

(04:56):
And how can we learn that? How can we learned
to to emulate that? I mean, because it's human nature
that which we don't know is something that we we
could fear. Yeah, I pointed out how he I've known
Bob since the late seventies early eighties, and what I've
always found about Bob is that he finds the silver

(05:18):
lining in any situation. Um. You know, and we talked
to a lot of people about Bob and how he
illuminates the upside. We had executives tell us that, you know,
Bob would engage ondas that might seem crazy and easily
rushed off by other executives other people, Um. When others
were saying why, he would often challenge the people around

(05:40):
him by asking why not? Um. And I think what
we learned about Bob is that one of his greatest
strengths was being able to see pass the latest acquisition
and into the future and towards what things should look
like from his point of view. And boy was he president.
I can't tell you enough how that was demonstrated to

(06:01):
me time and time again. Uh. And and if you
look at his acquisitions, a Pixar Lucas uh, the m
c U, the Marshal, the Marvel character universe, um. And
then he caps it all off with a with a
sixty billion dollar transaction low seventy billion dollar transaction with
twenty one century Fox. Pretty amazing because Bob gave a

(06:26):
speech to the National Association of Broadcasters at their annual
meeting way back in the late nineties. He wasn't even
chairman and CEO that UM, and he talked about if
I can find Chris, I want to read just to
you because it is amazing to me. Uh. This was
from the opening keynote address. Now think about this. This

(06:49):
is April of n Okay, and in part he said
the following. The multitude of decisions we face today creates
quite a chance olenge to any long term planning process.
None of us knows exactly where we're going, but we
can't afford to stand still. The changes affecting our business
over the past decade have been much more sweeping and

(07:12):
consequential than most of us appreciated. Today's viewer bears no
resemblance to the viewer of yesterday, and the changes over
the next ten years will be so vast that no
one can predict with any assurance where the business is headed.
If we continue to ignore the change or attempt to
conduct business as usual, we won't be conducting much business
at all. Don't get me wrong, I'm still an optimist

(07:35):
about the television business. I'm just not a cheerleader for
the status quo that's in the nineties, right, That's when
cable was still going strong and nobody even conceived that
streaming what somebody knew extreaming was. And look look at
where he look at where he has looked. He stepped down,

(07:55):
as you know, at the end of last year um
to to a deserved retire erman. But his fifteen years
as CEO was nothing less than transformational for the Walt
Disney Company. Uh. And it was because of that statement
you lead with about uncertainty fuels Bob. It's reflected in
that speech for all the uncertainty about where our business

(08:19):
was going. Uh, he tracked it better than most. When
I say prescient, boy, I mean it with a capital P.
It's amazing. And he was just um someone that I
enjoyed spending time with and being around with the few
times that we were, especially after he moved on from
the ABC Television network, we didn't see him as often.

(08:41):
I have to tell you one last story about Bob Eyer. So,
Bob wrote a best selling book, and again I would
It's been out several years, but I would encourage your
podcast listeners, if they haven't read it, to read it.
It's called The Ride of a Lifetime. And one day
my wife comes and she she says, here's a FedEx
package for you. Here, it's from Bob Iger and I go, really,

(09:02):
So I opened it up and it's a copy of
his book, and on the inside of the book what
he wrote was, in so many words paraphrasing Ray, Uh,
we have had the Ride of the lifetime and it
has been an honor for me to have you a
part of it. Best always, Bob. So I wrote my

(09:23):
book that we're talking about today, and not to be outdone,
I fed FedEx him a copy. Chris and I put
a note in the front that says, Bob, we both
had the Rides of the Lifetime. The difference is yours
was the matter horn and mine more closely resembled the teacups.
Best to Ray, I'm sure he appreciated the the original

(09:48):
like Disneyland reference. That's good. I mean it's not always
running multibillion dollar corporations, though, uncertainty in the lives of anyone,
and then finding a way to say, oh, I'm gonna
be inspired by that. I'm not gonna be scared by that.
I'm not going to view a possibility as as or
a hurdle has something to be fear, but embraced. It's

(10:12):
when you talk to people. I mean, how difficult is
it to get that message across and what are some
of the tricks you think too to employ in an
everyday life. If you're not a Bob Biker, but you're
facing uncertainty and you're facing challenges and you just see
red lights instead of green lights, well, I think the
first thing you understand is um the need to accept failure.

(10:36):
And with so many people we interviewed for the book,
they framed it in a way where you learn to
embrace adversity. It's not something that you fear. To use
the word we just used with Bob Biger, Uh, fear
was not in his vocabulary. Um. Learn how to accept
that that adversity and and learn from it, uh and

(10:59):
take it with you to the next challenge that you
face along the way. I just think that is so critical.
Michael J. Fox is somebody that I know you're close
to and you've you've written about him in your book.
Because Michael J. Fox took up golf after being diagnosed
with Parkinson's disease. It's been thirty years since that diagnosis.

(11:22):
You wrote that that was maybe the most optimistic thing
he'd ever done, or that was his characterization. Let's take
the most challenging game we can think of, the hardest
to learn, the most frustrating, and we're gonna take it
up after getting diagnosed for a disease that is physically debilitating.
I find that remarkable and inspiring. Yeah, in the case
of Michael, it might be appropriate to go back to

(11:42):
the future. And by that I mean I first met
Michael at an affiliate meeting in Orlando, Florida, at the
time that Spin City was on the ABC Television Networks
primetime schedule. The show had just moved into the top ten.
Um people think of family ties when it comes to
Michael in terms of television, I think of I think

(12:03):
of Spin City, and it's just to this day, it's
it's saddens me to think about where that show might
have gone, could have gone if he hadn't been diagnosed
with Parkinson's. So we first met there. We stayed in
touch through the years and again then I fast forward
to UH Sometime in the late around two thousand nine

(12:25):
or ten, Michael wrote a book, and I would encourage
your podcast listeners to check it out. It's been around
a while, but it's called Always Looking Up, The Adventures
of an Incurable Optivist. That book has so many life
lessons in it. Chris Um and I read that book.

(12:46):
ABC did a primetime schedule featuring Michael and of all people,
Bill Murray, playing at a golf course that I play
often called Sleepy Hollow, where Bill Murray is a member.
And I called Michael's office the next day and I said,
I'm involved with a Champions Tour pro am event in
Des Moines, Iowa that raises money for kids. I'd love

(13:09):
Michael to be my guest. And in twenty four hours
he said yes, and he flew up. We played golf
together for the first time, and as you pointed out,
and as I do in the book as well, playing
golf with Michael J. Fox is really a thrill. Here's
a guy who took up the games. You pointed out
after being diagnosed with Parkinson's and it is amazing to

(13:32):
watch his determination to play that game. Uh, it is
just so much fun. And we've played golf half a
dozen times since, and every time I do, I walk
away thinking that was one of the best experiences of
my life. He's very self deprecating after doing various jobs
in the show business, where he's so gifted and so

(13:54):
innately talented, he says, it's great to do something that
I suck in. Now he's better than that in golf,
but just imagine most people are fearful of that. And
he plays golf in these proem events with galleries and people,
so he's not afraid to put that out there and
and do it in public. But imagine wanting to take
up something because it's tough and because you suck in it,

(14:16):
it's great to play it. Yeah. His philosophy on life
is amazing, Chris Um. He has a great line, you know,
the life is a ride strapped in hang on and
keep your eyes wide open. And he embodies that philosophy himself,
and as I say in the book, to do what
he's done, to take on challenges and then use them

(14:39):
as platforms for change, to challenge himself and to do
so in a way that inspires others. I don't think
it gets much better than that. Yeah, you wrote that
he has turned adversity into a platform for growth. That
that's a beautiful thing. It applies to lots of people
because adversity comes in many forms. To be fair, though,
Michael did wrestle with some stuff he wrote in his
own book about turning the alcohol after getting that devas

(15:02):
hitting diagnosis. He was in a pretty dark place for
a couple of years. His wife Tracy helped him out.
His son was young at the time, and and a
mirror was kind of put up to him and it
showed him he was headed in a way that he
didn't like, and he was able to dig out. And
to me, Ray, that makes it even more compelling that
he had to wrestle with some dark stuff that that
a lot of people do when they're initially hit with
that adversity and then work through it. You know, you

(15:24):
and I have a mutual friend who used to be
an executive at ESPN named Jerry Madela. We all called
him g Matt. G Matt has a great line in
my book, uh, and it applies in this instance, and
what G. Matt told me was that if you want
to impress me, show me your accolades. If you want
to impact me, show me your scars. And that that's

(15:47):
what Michael has done in several books in opening up,
sharing those personal challenges that he had, how he first
reacted to being saddled with a Parkinson's diagnosis and then
realizing he could do something with that and and establishing
the Michael J. Fox Parkinson's Research Foundation. It's amazing joining

(16:09):
forces with a larger than life figure like Michael himself
in in Muhammad ali Um and as Michael is found
of saying, who else would you rather have in your
corner than the great one? One of the great things
about hanging with winners that turned out to be special
to me was that we talked to winners to do
the book, to write the book, but we also talked

(16:31):
to winners about other winners. And in one such case,
it was George Stephanopolis talking about Michael J. Fox and
again he knows Michael as well as anyone, and Michael
told us that just being around him as an awful
lot of fun, you'd never know the burdens he's carrying
because he addresses the challenges with his famous optimism, and

(16:53):
he maintains all that not in a saccharin way, but
in a way that's rooted in reality. Does not I
what's happening or denying what he's dealing with, but rather
Michael puts it in perspective. He simply shows everyone the
power of perseverance and hope while addressing whatever it is
that life throws at you. Yeah, that's beautiful. Yeah, it

(17:17):
is authentic, not Sacharin. And I think he invites all
that boy playing golf with him, playing golf with him
and Bill Murray would be that would be a life
peak experience that that I'm misimagining those two together, that
would be a lot of laughs. Right, You're right about
Jay Williams in your book, and Jay Williams is someone
had to pivot and had to reinvent himself and had
to face a different kind of adversity all American to

(17:38):
Duke when a championship he has headed to a certain
NBA start him gets in a motorcycle accident and that
career has taken away from him. Of course he's gone
on to a career in television, but but to two
face that kind of disappointment, that kind of loss of
your identity right as an athlete, as a basketball player.

(17:58):
And I know you introduced um with Martin Luther King Lion.
You said we must accept finite disappointments, but never lose
infinite hope. That's powerfully said, like many things that MLK said,
but easier said than done. I mean, that's a that's
more than a disappointment, that's a devastation. And he found
a way to not lose hope and to pivot. And

(18:21):
Jay is an interesting, interesting character in your book as well.
And I think, like Michael J. Fox, I'd like to
start by going back to the future. Chris, A lot
of your podcast listeners might not know what you and
I know about Jay, and that is what a remarkable
basketball player it was. You have a lot of young
people listening. It's been twenty years since since Jay stepped

(18:43):
away from Duke University. It's been twenty one years since
he led the Blue Devils to a national championship, and
I'm not sure a lot of people and they see
him on TV today know just what a great player
he was. In my lifetime. He had the quickest first
step off a dribble of anybody I've ever seen. He's amazing.
And he led the Blue Devils, as I said, to

(19:04):
the two thousand one national championship. They lost in his
junior year. He turned pro after that. So in his
last year or junior year, you know, they lost that game, uh,
in a lead aid game to the eventual national champion,
who I think was Indiana. Don't hold me to that, um,
And they lost by one point. And so here he

(19:24):
is at the pinnacle of his career and turns pro.
Great trivia question. He was the Consensus Player of the Year,
the Wooden Award winner. Uh you name it, uh an
ABC All American Consensus All American. UM. He was the
number two player chosen in the draft. You remember who

(19:44):
was number one? You're no, I don't yell ming. Okay,
that's a trip. It's kind of a trick question. Jay
was the best college basketball player by far, but he
was chosen number two h because of y'alming being drafted
ahead of him. So now now I'm gonna go to
your question with that backdrop to make sure people know

(20:07):
what a special special player. He's drafted number two by
the Chicago Bulls and he goes and he plays one
rookie year, uh and he has a horrific accident that's
been well documented, and that accident put him not at
the intersection of his career, but at the intersection of
life itself. And as we talked in the book, he

(20:28):
could have chosen to stop, he could have stayed where
he was, but he chose instead to make the choice
to see the adversity that he was confronted with as
an opportunity, an opportunity to learn and to grow and
to move forward, all the while knowing and having to accept,
which was very difficult for him. If you read his

(20:48):
own book, where he, like Michael J. Fox Boy, he
shows scars, not just it's not about accolades. He talks
about it and how he had to put aside the
fact that he would never play professional basketball again. It
was no longer in his path and it's like he
likes to say, it was no longer a part of

(21:08):
his journey. So I think that the story of Jake
Williams in the book is so instructive to people with
everyday decisions that they have a choice to make and
having to understand that their inevitable setbacks. Well maybe not
as tragic and severe and graphic as Jay's. That it's
their choice to learn from experiences and to find ways

(21:30):
to navigate them differently. Um, the next time it comes up.
And but Jay was what Ja told us is that
he believed strongly that too often people get fixated and
become so myopic, myopic that they may have lost uh,
that they don't pay attention to what they could have learned,
what they could have gained from that adversity in that

(21:51):
negative experience. That's powerful. You know. We talked about curiosity,
and we talked about character, and we talked about embracing
a versity. Another one is is mentors. George Bodenheimer talked
about the critical importance of mentors and to not think
you have to do things on your own. Um. George

(22:11):
said made the point that life doesn't the world doesn't
work that way. UM. You need to reach out and
learn from others who can fill that mentoring role for you.
And then when you had the opportunity ten or twenty
years later, it's time for you to pay that back
and serve as a mentor to others. You know, Chris
and our interview with you, you you talked about the

(22:33):
uh the influence that the late John Saunders had on you.
He in essence had a mentoring role for you, did
he not? Oh, John was a very important mentor. There
were others, but he was just older, wiser, more experienced,
and he was generous with his time. And I looked
at his example. I without that, I would have been lost.

(22:54):
I think you come into this this business, like any business,
like anything in life. I think approaching it with offidence
but humility. And it's very hard when you're young and
you think you've got a future, you think you've got
potential to to listen far more than you talk when
you're new at something. And I I got smacked down

(23:15):
rad I was in a newsroom in Denver. I got
publicly humiliated by an old veteran. And I had it
coming because I didn't even know what I didn't know.
But you're on there, you're sure, you're sure yourself. And
that was one of the most important things that ever
happened to my broadcasting career. I always used as an example.
I wasn't on the air, but it was one of
the most important experiences I had. So in coming to

(23:35):
ESPN as as I looked eleven years old. I was
hosting a high school sports show. There are a lot
of folks who have done a lot of stuff in
TV sports at that point. Um hopefully by that point,
I'm sure a certain percentage thought, who is this obnoxious kid?
But but it was John Saunders and others who were
who are kind and just by their example, Uh, we're
we're great mentors. You're right. I don't know how you

(23:57):
do this without that. All of us need to to
watch and listen more than we talk at certain stages
of our development and learn from others. You talked about leadership.
I do. I'm talking about leadership and and the the
important things that you found that leaders have. By leader,
I don't mean running a country or running a company.

(24:17):
It could be something much more modest than that. But
I think we all know that having qualities of leadership
that's important in life in different in different ways. And
for me, leadership starts with awareness. I've seen leaders that
are very aware of themselves of others, and if they are,
then they can have empathy and compassion, and to me,
that's a very important aspect of leadership. Leadership does not

(24:41):
getting other people to do what you want them to do.
Or bending their will to suit your purposes. That that
I think is misidentified as leadership. In the various leaders
in different fields you came across, what did you find
was most important? Well, one of the leaders that I
would point to is one that was your leader, who

(25:03):
I had the opportunity and the great privilege to work with,
and that's George. Bodenheimer touched on George earlier. But you know,
George and Bob Iger and other leaders that I've seen,
many of them are almost introverted in nature. You know,
Bob Eiger is not an outwardly flamboyant person at all.
Neither was George. And maybe it has everything to do

(25:25):
with humble beginnings. As you know, George started in the
mail room at ESPN. One of his jobs and no
one loves telling the story better than Dick By tell himself,
but one of George's early jobs as a mail clerk
was to go pick up Dick at the Hartford Airport
and getting to Bristol to work. And and that story
has become quite legendary through years, and like a great

(25:48):
fifth story, that fish is now four ft long. But
but the point is, as George did start there, and
he you know, from the mail Room to the Boardroom
is the subtitle of his book. Uh, and it's true.
Eiger started as a production assistant at ABC Television Network,
and Sweeney who is uh figures prominently in the book

(26:11):
and contributed so many inspiring thoughts. Uh. She rose to
the same level as George Bodenheimer. I worked with both
of them as chairman of the ABC board. George was
one co chair of the Disney Media Networks and was
the other one. George oversaw all of ESPN and oversaw
all the other media networks, and started at the ABC

(26:32):
Television Network as a page while working in college. Okay,
so maybe that contributes to a word that you used earlier,
which is humility, Uh, something that great leaders have. So
introverts out there, the introverts out there listening to you know,
need not be ruled out of leadership positions just because

(26:52):
for them maybe it isn't second nature to reach out
and to be forceful with your personality. But leadership in
another form, well leader, I'm fond of saying that leadership
is not innate. Okay. Um, there's no single answer or
path to becoming a good or effective leader. Um, but

(27:14):
it's I think the people that become great leaders that
don't consider themselves to be a boss with people that
work for them. They see themselves as a colleague who
works with those people reporting to them. Uh, They're good listeners,
they ask the right questions. Um, and leadership I think,

(27:34):
to your point extends far beyond business. It extends to
how we choose to live our life in many respects,
and that will make you a better leader. I have
a saying your professional life and your personal life are
two halves of the same sphere. You can't be really
good in your professional life and really louses in your

(27:54):
personal life, and vice versa in my view, and so
I think that in both business in life, it's about
inspiring others. When it comes to leadership, it's helping others
to be their best selves while you're working to be
the best version of yourself, trying to be the kind
of person that you'll be happy to live with the
rest of your life. Okay, why do you say that, Ray,

(28:17):
I mean someone might listen to wait a second. We
all know people that have had enormous success financially, success
in business, yet their personal life is a train wreck.
They have no work life balance, they're unable to, or
you could, you could, the reverse could happen. But but
more famously, it's people that are seen as these ultimate

(28:38):
high achievers. If you look behind the curtain, they're not
successful in their personal life. They're not they don't have
great relationships with friends and colleagues and so on. Well,
one of the things about working on this book is
that I learned that what it means to be a
winner is far more subjective and ambiguous than it is

(28:59):
quality lectative and clear. In my view, in my definition
of what it means to be a winner, you have
to take You have to take the entire sphere. You
don't get to break it up. You don't get to
break off half and take the position that the other
half doesn't matter. I think that that it's about achieving

(29:19):
mutual success with others around you at work, and also
creating a life that you're happy with at home, whether
it's a spouse or your kids or your grandkids or whatever.
And it's also about it's about giving back. You know,
when we talk about leadership, the big thing today people

(29:40):
talk about they put an adjective in front of it, Chris,
you hear it more and more it's called servant leadership,
and I think servant leadership is where anybody listening to
this podcast who really aspires to be the best version
of themselves and to help others around them do the same,
I think that's where they should go. That's about influencing

(30:01):
others to serve the greater good. The best leaders are
focused on serving other people and and their community at large.
We spend a lot of time in the book, people
like George Boldenhimer and others talk about giving back and
the affirmative obligation that you, as a leader, you as
a winner, have um to reach out, use your connections,

(30:24):
to use your relationships in a way that influences others
to do good. Stepping out and doing what you can
to help others in the community. I think that's the
kind of leadership. That's the kind of winner that I
hope that we focused on in this book. Yeah, that's
beautifully said. Thanks for sharing that. I help people listen

(30:46):
to that, dive into that dissected and take that to heart.
Success I mean, I think more and more people feel
like they deserve the right to find what success is
for them, and I think it's it's something I try
to preach two young people. When I'm asked, I try
not to say you must do this. I try to

(31:07):
rarely say you should do that. I just try to
relate what's been important to me and what I've learned.
And I think that so many people right approach their
life like it's a business and want to define success
in their life the same way success is often defined
in business terms profits, what your company is worth, your

(31:29):
market share, the price of your shares, and your life
is not a business, right. What we don't have to
define successful as you know how much money you made,
in the amount of toys that you own, how elaborate
those toys are, whether your toys are better than your
neighbor's toys. But it's sometimes hard to get people to

(31:51):
see it or or be reprogrammed, because so much of
what success means revolves around money domination. You know, um,
I would, Um, I would agree with you wholeheartedly. I
don't think winning or success is about I don't think

(32:14):
it's about money. It's not about in our business crests,
it's not about ratings and revenue. It's not about stock
prices and accomplishments and accolades and awards, and in inductions
into so many halls of fame. Um. I think it's
about going through a life where you do get knocked down, uh,
and you were courageous enough to get back up and

(32:38):
to understand that winning is about getting up. And really
it's about I think what you're saying in so many words,
it's about keeping your priorities straight. It's about knowing who
matters and who doesn't. It's about knowing what matters and
what doesn't. And I think if you're lucky enough to
have a loving family and caring friends and a job

(33:02):
that you think meets a purpose in this world, then
I think you've won. There's a great quote in the
book from Diane Sawyer who said to us that if
you've got that intersection of your joy and the feeling
that it's meeting in need of the world, then your home,
that's your whole career. Quote unquote, Diane beautifully said, I

(33:26):
couldn't say it any better. No, she's an ABC News legend.
I told you before that. That's another sentence in the
book that just jumped out at me because it's discussed
so much. I mean, there are millions of books and
podcasts about success and what it means and how you
get there, and she said, it's the moment when your
purpose meets joy. And that is as succinctly put as

(33:49):
I've ever heard it, and it can't be put better.
She goes on to say that the thing that you
want to do is the thing that you get to do,
and that's obviously talked about by lots of people. When
when you love what you do and not try to
convince yourself that what you do is something you should
be passionate about, when organically springs from from what you
what you uh see as your purpose. And then what

(34:11):
she does is she takes another step and she says
that when when what you want to do is what
you get to do, and then that somehow makes the
world better, And that I think is a trick your
component for people, because someone could say, hey, you know, Ray,
I love surfing. That's my passion to get up every
day and being one with the waves. And if you

(34:32):
can work in a surf shop and and be passionate
about every day doing that, I'm not going to criticize
that at all. But can you find a way to
somehow make the world a little bit better? Whatever that is,
whether that's spreading your message, whether it's mentoring. It doesn't
need to be super dramatic, but I love that component that, Hey,
it's not just doing what we want to do and

(34:54):
getting paid for it. It's finding a way to extend
that and make the world better in some way based
on that. So many of the winners we talked to
Chris Uh, in keeping with Diane's punctuation point of meeting
a need of the world for that surfer or whoever else,
So many of the winners we talked to Um made

(35:15):
a point of saying that they would be disappointed if
they didn't leave the world better than the way they
found it. Um. They said it in different ways, but
they in essence conveyed that message. And it is about
meeting a need of the world. It is about giving back.
It is what Dick Vital talked about in his profile.

(35:37):
Nobody has done it better than him when it comes
to lending a hand, lending a helping hand to those
who need it. Oh my gosh, is there anybody who's
done that? And you and I are proud, I know
to call him a mutual friend of ours. Is there
anybody that does it better than Dick Uh? Throughout his

(36:00):
throughout his career. Did you I'm gonna have to ask
you this. Did you see just yesterday? Uh? In the
big lead a story from Kyle Coster. Do you know Kyle?
I don't know him. Yeah, okay, so he wrote an
article about I believe. The headline was Dick fi tells
voice and as you know, he's not talking now, Dick

(36:21):
five tell his voice louder than ever. So if I
can just read an excerpt from them, because it ties
in exactly with what we're talking about. And what what?
What Kyle wrote in this beautiful essay of his is
the following. There exists a perfect opportunity for all those
who care to follow the template. Dick Fight Tell himself

(36:43):
is built to show the same kind of compassion he
showt to conjure up a fraction of the hustle he
gives every day, both in front of the camera and
off screen, to think of others and hold a warm
thought for their success, To show the willingness to process
some of the same pain and challenges their process, to

(37:04):
have optimism in the face of bad news, and to
plunge ahead undeterred. Beautiful that is Dick by tell our
friend to a t Dick. Dick was a guest on
the podcast. We talked a lot about this and before
his cancer diagnosis, but we talked about the dinner, and
I know Dick gets very caught up in the numbers

(37:24):
and and he wants to set records and he wants to,
you know, continue to raise the bar like he's a coach.
It's a scoreboard, okay, And he sometimes sees the fight
against cancer as a scoreboard. And I'm not here too
to punch holes in that. But I did try to
tell him, Dick, forget the numbers. Like I walk out
of there, so many people walk out of there inspired, moved, humbled,

(37:47):
wanting to do more, wanted to be better and be
more generous, and think about the power of that, not
just for him, but so many others. I think that right,
if if we can, through our decency or compassion or
general city or giving back in some small way, when
someone leaves our presence, so they walk away thinking those
things that everyone who goes to that I tell Gala

(38:09):
thinks is how can I be better based on his
example or her example. I think that that's that's just awesome.
You know, you have throughout your career treated people in
their words, and that this is in the part of
your book. I'm not going to embarrass you, but you've
lived a life where you've made people feel valued, you

(38:33):
made them feel hurt, you made them feel important, and
that's so innately human to want others to, you know,
give that back to you. My angel is quote people
will forget what you said, forget what you did, but
people will never forget how you made them feel. Different
ways to say that it doesn't need to be about

(38:55):
building a legacy when you're gone to those who you knew.
It could be about how you treat people in a
eli basis. How can people get better at that and
embrace the idea that that how they make others feel
is more important than what they say and even what
they do. Sometimes well, I think I think you go

(39:16):
back to the basics we discussed earlier in the podcast,
and it's to stand back, and it's to look at
how we approach others and do we approach them with kindness, respect, empathy?
Do we listen uh to others um and do we
engage them in a way where we're helping them uh

(39:39):
in a way that maybe helps ourselves along the way.
I don't know. I was. I was humbled and even
embarrassed by a number of the things that people we
interviewed told my writing partner Rob gray Um. Some of
them were funny. I love Bob bullsby the former athletic
director at IOWA, who have known a long time, and

(40:00):
then he was at Stanford and as you know, and
he's now the commissioner the Big Twelve Conference. Um. He
had a line in there that said that I always
had a smile on my face, uh, and I was
always always optimistic. But his great line was he could
always trust me, he could always take my word. Uh.
And he said, and raise in an industry with a

(40:20):
lot of snake oil salts, snake oil salesman, uh, and
that is a rare quality. And I after I read
that in the transcript, I called Bob and I said,
would you like to name names who you were thinking
about when you said that? So I'd like to would
be a much shorter list of people who aren't that,
And you're on that list. But stereotypes exist for you,

(40:46):
and I know there's some great people and there are
some snake oil salesman to use Bob Bulls these words,
but bottom line is um. You know, I you know,
we talked about uh, you know, uh optimism, and we
talked about rattitude. Uh. And you know again, I've just
been influenced by so many people that I've been blessed

(41:09):
to cross paths with people who have truly enriched my career,
truly graced my life and to the extent that what
every extent what you said about me earlier holds up, Chris,
It's probably because of what I've gained from others. And
that's why I wrote this book. Is I wanted to
share those thoughts uh and and and and pass those

(41:32):
along to others, as I said at the outset, that
they may be inspired in the same way that those
who we profiled an interview have inspired me. And so
I'll bring it. I'll wrap it up with this Michael J. Fox.
We started with Michael. Michael has beautiful thoughts on this
um and he talks about optimisms and he makes the

(41:52):
point that it's really rooted in gratitude, that optimism is
sustainable when you keep coming back to that word gratitude
and what follows from that acceptance, now that's again profound.
He went on to say that accepting whatever it is
that's happened to you, and learning to accept it for

(42:14):
what it is, is what it's about. It doesn't mean
that you can't endeavor to change, doesn't mean that you
have to accept it as some form of punishment or
a penance or anything else, but just to put it
in its proper place. And if you do that, then
you'll see how much the rest of your life you
have to thrive in and then move on and be

(42:35):
your best person possible. Optimism gratitude, that's where it starts.
Optimism gratitude also a great place to end this. So
grateful to Ray Cole for his time and of some
of the ideas we talked about. Spoke to you, invite
you to check out his book, Hanging with Winners, A

(42:56):
Lifetime of connections, anecdotes and lessons learned. As always, grateful
to my co executive producer Jennifer Dempster and A. Jason
Whitehill for his editing skills, and to you for listening, supporting,
and providing feedback on the podcast. I'll talk to you soon.