STEPHEN A. SMITH

A thoughtful, personal, powerful conversation. What has shaped this icon and propelled him to the top of TV sports. And what he wants to conquer next.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
Stephen A Smith. We had a thoughtful, insightful, powerful conversation,
and I wasn't gonna come at him with any debates,
and I wasn't looking for hot takes on hot topics.
Stephen A gets very well paid to do that superbly
on all sorts of platforms. First take on ESPN, of course,
and stephen A's World and ESPN plus Sports Center, NBA

(00:24):
and boxing coverage, and more than nine point two million
followers between his Twitter and Instagram. I wanted to talk
to him about what sets him apart, what's gotten him
to the top, the influence of five strong women in
his life. He was very open about his challenges and setbacks,
about loss and his mortality, recovered all sorts of stuff,

(00:47):
including his excellent acting on General Hospital and his big
plans for the future. Well, stephen A, you are an
extremely busy man. I am grateful for you making some time.
I hope you can enjoy this. This is interesting for
me because we've never really had a real conversation. I
think we've been in the same building a few times
it fights or NBA games. We've we've I've at least

(01:09):
I've admired you from Afar for a long time, but
this will be the first ever conversation. We've had no
pre interview, so there's no safety that here we go. PLEA,
the pleasures all my man. You've done great, great work
for us throughout the years, and ESPN wouldn't be what
it is and I wouldn't be where I am if
it were not for people like you. So when you've
made the request for me to come on, I was
happy to do so. I might edit out the compliments.

(01:31):
I usually do that. But besides your obvious genius as
a communicator and your thoughtfulness as a commentator, a couple
of things I remire about you is is your resilience.
You've been knocked down a few times, really from the
start of your life, but certainly throughout your career, and
you are a risk taker professionally, which I really appreciate.

(01:53):
Let's let's start with their resilience. Man, how many times
in your life or your career do you think you've
been knocked down and in the in the view was
of other people? Finished? Man, I got left back in
fourth grade from having a first grade reading level that
was being knockdown. Uh, humiliated by the whole neighborhood who

(02:14):
was aware that I got left back and I had
a reading deficiency, I had dyslexia. Um, even though that's
what we didn't know that at the time that it
actually happened in the seventies. So that's a knockdown. Um,
not making the basketball team uh my junior year in
high school and way having to wait until my senior
year and then I made it. But being knocked down

(02:35):
my junior year, um, you know, being in college, cracking
my kneecap in half playing for Clarence Big House games. Uh,
and ultimately having a forfeit my scholarship to come back
home to rehab because it was a division juke program
and my mother's insurance would not cover me unless I

(02:55):
came home to New York and not staying North Carolina.
That was a huge knockdown, um, you know. And being
let go by ESPN in uh two thousand and nine
over a contract dispute. That was a huge letdown. So
you know, I would tell you, by and large about
five or six times I've been knocked down where you know,

(03:17):
people thought I was finished quite frankly, getting canceled in
two thousand and seven, even though I had done three
hundred and twenty seven shows and conducted over seven hundred
and eighty interviews in that span. Um it was still
considered a failure. That was definitely being knockdown with people
wondering where my career is going. Uh So I would
tell you about five or six strong times where people

(03:39):
thought I was finished. That's about right. Yeah, the story
is definitely one of comebacks. You mentioned the ESPN situation.
I mean clearly at that time they didn't see the
value and you the eventually have showed the company and
then something it's a contract dispute I've heard you describe,
but you know you came back. First of all, I
want to ask where were you emotionally and mentally at

(04:00):
that point when you're sort of on the streets after
having a budding career and having a visible position. I
was devastated, first of all. I felt like, um, I
did not deserve to lose my job, to lose the show. Sure,
but I was on NBA shoot Around at the time
before it was called NBA Countdown, UM I was hosting.
Quite frankly, UM I was I was, you know, an

(04:23):
NBA analyst and inside of a sports center. Um I
was doing a radio show as well, and for me
to wake up one day and after having four jobs
and having absolutely nothing, Um, I really felt like I
got screwed over and I felt like it was grossly
unfair and I played the role of victims. But that

(04:44):
only lasted for about eight hours. And then my mother
got rested us soul looked at me and I'll never forget,
And I'm writing a memoir. I've got my book with
Simon and Shuster coming out next January, and I tell
a story about how my mother brought me up a
trade of food because I went over to her house
this language in her house and didn't go to my house,

(05:05):
went back in the bunk bed that I grew up
in all of this stuff that just laid there for
a couple of days. And then she came to me
one day and handed me a plate of food and
on the plate, on the tray with the food was
a mirror, one of them handheld mirrors. And I said,
what is this for? She said, that's for you to
take a look at yourself, where you feel when you

(05:26):
start ready, when you're ready to stop, to the surf
for yourself. She said, I'm quite sure it wasn't all
their fault. When did you look at you? She said,
you're my son? How did I raise you? You know this?
You aren't innocent in all of this. And when she
made me do that, I was forced to reflect what
my attitude was like, the kind of approach that I

(05:47):
took towards work, particularly my superiors, my supervisors. What kind
of attitude did I have? How did I speak to them?
How enthusiastic was I about work? Um? Was I too argumentative?
Did I challenge every little thing that I not picked?
My battles? You start thinking about all of those things,
and when you reflected on those things, when I reflected

(06:07):
on those things, I realized I was more to blame
than they were. And because I had more culpability on
my shoulders and in my heart than they did, I
eradicated any blame in their direction, regardless of what they
may have done. I put it all on me because
since I was able to point to a multitude of

(06:29):
things that I was doing that I would not advise
any employee to do. I just said, I'm never gonna
get beyond this unless I own all of it. And
that's what I did. Moms are filled with wisdom, and
I want to circle back to her a little bit later.
But that's a rare place to arrive at, Steven. I

(06:49):
gotta tell you, people take things very personally. It's hard
not to get wounded. Very few people can arrive at
a place to say I had more to do with
that sat back than anybody else. But you did to
ride back in the business with a place of wisdom.
I think realizing from what you said about this that
it's not personal, it is business. It's far less about

(07:09):
loyalty than it is about utility. What can you do
for me now and going forward, not not what you
did in the past. What can you do now? And
to a company you are an asset or you're not
where you are, but you you You come back like
hardened by that experience. But I think a lot wiser
about what can be a pretty murky business at times,

(07:30):
no question about it. And I think that you know
you able to reflect on a certain things, like for example,
you know I would see guys like i'd see you
colling college football games. I see guys calling Monday and football.
I see guys do a lot of different things and
I'm like, no, I can't do that. I know better,
I know my position. But I can be in this
position where I can help generate money for the company

(07:50):
if you just gave me the opportunity. Why can't I
have that opportunity. Well, bosses make decision all the time,
and everybody's coming to them thinking that they could do something,
and you have to make a decision as to what
you think is better. So they have a right to
make those decisions because they're in those positions. And then
the other thing was I looked at myself and I said, Okay,
what was my definition of popularity? People screaming my name
in the streets, people saying hey Stephen, Hey, blah blah

(08:13):
blah blah blah. Well, guess what that can't necessarily be monetized.
What's your ratings? What kind of revenue do you bring
into the company or to a particular show, add sales,
things of that nature. Q scores, all of these other
things that we're supposed to pay attention to that validate
I value to the people who actually make these decisions,

(08:33):
so they could use that data to basically decipher what
you're worth and what you're not. I paid no attention
to any of that stuff. And so my mother would
say to me once I ultimately confessed to her that
that was the case, she said, well, if you don't
know your value, who are you to tell them what
your value is? And I had no answer. I had
no answer. And so when I looked at it from
that perspective, I said, I put them in a position

(08:57):
of strength because I'm relying on my emotional feelings to
somewhat try and dictate what they should do when it's
their job not to make emotional decisions. They're supposed to
use other means to decipher and determine your value. And
when the moment I realized that, it was an epiphany

(09:17):
that was a career altering because Chris, from that day forward,
I detached emotions from business and I was able to
look at something to say, Okay, we're supposed to be
in the money making business. Was supposed to be in
the ratings and revenue business. Here's what I bring to
the table. And I've been fixated or making sure I understood,

(09:40):
at least to some degree, what my value was. From
that day and the day that happened, I depersonalized everything.
It made me a better professional, and it made me
a better man and a better adult. And that is
why I'm here, I'm where I am today. We're in
the same business, same employer, but I I see our
roles is fundamentally different. I mean your job as I

(10:02):
see it. Maybe you disagree, if so, straighten me out.
But to to deliver your insight, your opinions, it's about
you and your vibe and directing and dominating debates. I
document events I did. I did to show her opinions matter.
And you were expected to throw your two cents in
on game, David, as you as you call a game.
It's about others. It's about documenting what's going on. You

(10:25):
certainly put your spin on it. Does the idea of
doing that bore you because it doesn't let you be
you and and express your thoughts. It doesn't bore me.
It's just that for me, the Chris Fowlers of the
world are un rarefied. Here you're able to document and
and I mean this complimentary, but it's for you, and

(10:47):
it's for people in your position. You've earned the right
to be where you are, and so as a result,
there's a comfort that comes along with it. You go
to a negotiating table, you are Chris Fowl and this
is what you've done and you've done it on an
exceptional level to a point where you're not devalue by
the company that you work for or the companies that

(11:08):
are in pursuit of your services. Most folks that have
the role of documenting and chronicling what's transpiring, to some
degree their devalued because not enough attention is paid from
a monetary standpoint to what they can bring to the table.
Whereas when you're giving your opinions. In my case, I

(11:31):
did that on a newspaper level. I did chronicle, I
did document I was a beat writer for many years,
and stuff like that. That never leaves me. I don't
think it's one of the other. With what I do.
I think at the end of the day, my opinion,
my perspective is expected, but also the responsibility that I
have to pay attention to what's being documented the chronicles,

(11:52):
so I can give a reference point as to why
my perspective is what it is. People who just go
out there, I want to run them out, have no sources,
have no context, have no just have no foundation for
which they from which they gathered the information. But they
just want to give opinions. No that you've got some

(12:12):
people who are doing that, but they're not very successful
at this. The people who are successful at this are people,
for the most part, that have been journalists that had
a responsibility at one time or another to chronicle and
and document things and in document events and what have you,
and it's never left them. They hold onto it. So
what they do is they take what Chris Fawala and

(12:35):
others do, the Kirk curve stryts to the world and others,
and they say, okay, based on what they're saying and
what I'm seeing and what my sources might tell me
and what information I may have gathered. This is what
I deduce as opposed to just being irresponsible and just
spewing out something just because you want to. Every dude
in the street thinks they can be you, and they

(12:56):
don't have the insight, they don't have the background, they
don't have the thoughtfulness, they don't even have a platform
except when that they create. But they all think that
they can be a pundit and they have no idea
what goes into it. As I've always appreciated that you
bring many different perspectives to it and a lot of
accumulated wisdom. The risk ticking man. He actually goes back
as I understand that even before you were getting paid

(13:17):
to be a print journalist, because at Winston Salem State
where you played hoops for for Clarence Big House Games,
he mentioned him. He's a he's a Hall of famer
one more than games. He was a part of Winston
Sailing for almost a half century and you, before you
bust your kneecap, were on that team, and you wrote
an article advising him to retire. Now you gotta be
the only active college athlete to ever go write an

(13:39):
article telling a legendary coach he's playing for to retire.
You understand that it's a it's a club of one
probably that's done that and gotten away with it. Well, listen, um,
I loved you. Know. I didn't have the greatest relationship
with my father, and Clarence Big House Games was like
a father to me. And I knew that he was

(14:00):
having health issues. And one time we were on the
sidelines and he had a patch over his eye and
he was very shaking, and I got very worried about him,
and my teammates got very worried about him. So I
was writing for the school newspaper and he and I
talked all the time. And while we were talking, I
said to him, this is what I noticed. What you're

(14:22):
gonna do about it? And in his acerbic, you know,
truculent kind of way, he was like, maya damn business,
you know. And you know, I said to him, you
need to take care of this and basketball can't be
the priority when your health is an issue. Man, you
might need to walk away from this. And he said
a nephew, man, Yeah, I'm saying I'm not doing anything

(14:43):
like that. And I said, well, if you don't do it,
I'm gonna write about it. Since you're so proud of
you want everybody that you don't you want to give it,
then you don't want to give it them, you want
to just shove it aside. I'm gonna write about it.
And he said go ahead, And so I did it.
And when I did it, uh, you had a bunch
of people that obviously had a real big problem with me,

(15:04):
including the chancellor of the university who wanted to be
thrown off campus from what I was told, and Coach
Gaines himself intervened and said, leave him alone. He wants
to be a journalist. He told me exactly what he
was doing. He told me why beforehand, and I gave
him the okay to go ahead and do it. Leave

(15:24):
him alone. And that's what happened. A lot of people
didn't know that coach Gains had given me the okay.
They had no idea, But that's what happened. He was
a giant man in a lot of ways. Of course
knew him covering college basketball. But I find that that
story fascinating and it has a good ending. He did
retire a couple of years after that. But but uh,
that's uh, that's ballsy, and it was it was it

(15:47):
was I guess you you were throwing a lifeline by him.
You go to Philly, You're you're writing, you said, a
beat reporter and a columnist, very very tough sports town.
The readers are tough. Uh, it's just a it's the
deep end of the pool. You had a setback though, right,
You're you're a columnist, outspoken, you got political, and then
they said, uh, get back in your lane. We're gonna

(16:07):
make you a kind of a beat reporter, not a calumnist. Right,
So had you had to take that and then rebuild it.
You know what happened was that I had gotten quite
frankly with the ESPN two, and I was doing my
radio show in New York. Prior to that, I had
an agreement with Philadelphia just show back up once or
twice a week and so write a column and other

(16:29):
than that, we're good. And so what happened is is
that once I was doing that in New York, a
new regime came into the Philadelphia Inquirer. And obviously that
wasn't an agreement that they co signed. So they were
trying to get me to essentially, um give up my posts.
And I was like, no, without a Separence package, and

(16:50):
they was and and and and this this is one individual.
I never forget it, but I can't talk about it
from a legal perspective. But he looked me in my
face and he said, you've made enough money. And when
he said that to me, um, listen, I'm like, because
you know, I'm a black man, and I'm a proud
black man, and I don't think that everything is racist,

(17:11):
and I don't think everything is racism. And there's plenty
of black peaks people that I know that are wrong,
and there's plenty of white folks that I know that
have been right. But in this case he was wrong
and he had nothing to do with the agreement that
was signed. And so when he said that to me,
basically that you made enough money, he wouldn't talk about
the Philoms inquired. He was talking about the money that
I was making an ESPN, which is none of his business.

(17:34):
And so for me, I was like, you know, in't
start or something. I'm not backing up. I'm not going anywhere.
So they tried all of those tactics ultimately and went
to arbitration, and I want the arbitration case. And I
was returning to my stature as a columnist before I
ultimately left the Philadelphia Inquirer to come back to ESPN.
Little did he know the man who should remain nameless

(17:55):
about it's money in you, hey, people act What you
do is taking a risk when you criticize people that
you know. I find a tricky to be friends with
college football coaches or even tennis players or coaches, because
you can be friendly ish. But it was hard for me,
not because I would be relucted to criticize them, but

(18:15):
they wouldn't like it, and they would be caught off
guard and surprised. You would you would come at them
and happen many times. I mean, you you thread a
line because you're both a pundit, the most accomplished pundit,
but also an insider. And it's hard because insiders typically
you know, Schefter, Woach guys are brilliant at that, but
they're not giving opinions, just working sources. You do both

(18:35):
ends of it. It's it's does it feel like a
tight up sometimes? Oh, it's definitely a tight rope, especially now.
But I don't have to do what Adam Schefter and
Adrian ward Garowski my Steam colleagues do. That's that's what
they do every day. I don't have to do that anymore.
I just choose to be an insider because you've got
access to information. You've got access to information because you're

(18:57):
breaking bread with these figures. And then totally, if if, if, if,
it's the thing to be said, you gotta say about them,
and they know that. And so for me, I just
have a car in the loud that I lived by Chris.
Your personal life is your business, stay out of the
police bloggers, and I got nothing to say. It's your
personal life is your story to tell unless you let
it get Unless something happens that you and the police bloggers.

(19:19):
That's public information and that changes everything or what you
do on the court to field, to play, that's my domain.
What I mean by that is that that's what you're
putting out on display for the public to decipher and evaluate.
That would happen to be me. And so if you
go out on the court and you play like garbage,
I'm gonna say you play like ge But you play

(19:41):
up out and said, hey, James Harden, you played like
garbage against the Brooklyn Nets, a near right of the club.
You're not afraid to sort of be the wiser uncle
to say, hey, check yourself. You've you've done out of
the past, you know, recreational where I want to use
his rampant and pro sports. You've taken a strong stance
against that. Yeah, absolutely, every understand something. I often use

(20:01):
this phrase. We don't have we don't have things given
dinner together, we don't exchange Christmas gifts. I mean, the
fact of the matter is is that I have a
job to do and I'm gonna do it. I'm not
trying to screw you over and I'm not trying to
bury you. I'm not trying to do anything. But I'm
chronicling what's transpiring and I'm disseminating that message to the masses,
and I have an obligation to do that. Now, we
can be friendly with one another so long as you

(20:23):
understand that. If you don't understand that, then we don't
have to be friendly at all. We certainly don't have
to be enemies. But I'm going to do my job.
That is my job, and you know that coming. I mean,
from day one, the first minute, we make sure we understand.
I make sure folks understand this is what my job is,
and this is exactly what I am going to do.

(20:45):
And if you don't like it, you better get over it,
because as you can see, there's a whole bunch of
punk that's out there who have a responsibility to do
that job. Some of them might do it better than me,
most don't. When people heard you're gonna be on, it's oh,
I love Stephen A. He's crazy or he's crazy. I

(21:05):
can't listen to him. I mean, you're gonna be polarizing.
The people who have done what you do at a
Hall of Fame level, by definition, are somewhat polarizing. One
pole is smaller than the other you hope, but the
crazy part, you're very thoughtful person, you don't. You don't
shoot in then aime later, how do you how do
you react when when you get that that crazy loud bombashador.

(21:26):
I totally understand where they're coming from, because it's a
debated damn damn, it's friction all day long, right, and
so you're going at it. So they're paying attention to
my delivery and presentation, but they need to pay more
attention to my content because in the midst of all
of that bantering and and and you know, just that

(21:47):
a brace them back and forth at times. Like you said,
I am thoughtful, and I do know what I want
to say. For the most part, I'm not perfect, but
I do know what I want to say, and I
am trying to be responsible. And so they're paying attention
to my presentation. And sometimes that hurts me because my
presentation you serves my content, and I recognize that, but

(22:10):
I also get scared because if I came on the
air like this, Chris every morning at ten o'clock, Hey,
welcome the first take you're doing. You know's how I feel.
That's not how you generate ratings. That's not how you
generate interests in the product that you're asking people to
take time out of this schedule to watch. You need

(22:30):
to be as passionate and enthusiastic as as as anybody
if you want people to watch you. If Chris Ballance
calling UH Alabama and and L s U or something,
you're not sitting up there mumbling. You're not. You're not.
You're not talking like you're talking to the White Games.
But I get you. I get your point. You're expected
to bring the energy that matches the occasion you're projecting.

(22:51):
You're projecting, and that's what I'm talking about. That's what
I bring to the table a lot of time. So
I understand why people think I'm crazy because they're focused
on that. But there's a you're I don't use this
word lightly, man. You you're a genius communicator, and that
you can start out at a one and you're almost
more riveting when you're quiet, and then you bring it up.
I saw it today a conversation about Frank Vogo and

(23:13):
the Lakers, and then you bring it up. Then you're
you're at a six, Then you're in an eight, then
you're in the nine, and and you're rolling and it's
riveting too. Then you bring it back down quiet. So
the sermon matters, but the way it's delivered. You know
that anybody's been a church, it's the way it's delivered
is equally important. Sometimes, I gotta tell you, man, it changed.
That was one of the things that I learned when

(23:35):
I lost my job in two thousand and nine, because
as I went back and I watched myself, it was screaming,
a screaming, a screaming a and I gotta confess it
was the one time in my life I got tired
because I thought I had to be on one hundred
all the time. And then I started looking at myself
and I said, wait a minute. I'm just as effective

(23:57):
when I love on my voice after I raised it.
I'm just as effective when I'm quiet and I'm making
my facial expressions with the audience know as I'm talking
to them without saying a word. And so I learned
ultimately to bring all of those things together to basically
fit my personality. My persona. I think about how I'm talking.

(24:19):
You know, I talked to my mother one way, God
rest her soul. I talked to my father another way.
I talked to my four older sisters, but none of
them exactly the same. I talked to my older sister
Linda differently in a way that I talked to my
youngest sister, Carmen, who's four years older than me. And
then I'm uncle Steve over here with fifteen niece as
the nephews, and so all of a sudden, I'm talking
to them in a totally different way than I talked

(24:41):
to my sisters. You're seeing all these people as you're
doing your show, are you imagine as Yeah, and so
it's like, you know, you're doing all of this right,
and and you just and you just said, wait a minute,
that's what I do in length. Why would I not
bring that to the two I'm not speaking at a
high volume certainly. When I talking to my mother, it
was yes, man, yeah, but my I'm wanted, but Ma, no,

(25:06):
that you know. And then my father, he and I
usually are. We were usually arguing as forts, so I'm
debating him, whereas with my sisters, they were my big sister,
so they slapped me upside my head if I talked
to them in a certain way, but my nieces and
nephews couldn't because I was uncle Steve, so all of
these different things I just learned to bring to the

(25:27):
table and said, no, I'm not a one trick pony.
I got a multitude of dimensions to my presentation and
my delivery. Bring it all to television. Let them see
who you truly, truly are, And that's what I do. Yeah.
People tend to think that those who are animated or
not authentic. You you bring a great deal of authenticity
or nobody would uh would jump on the bandwagon as

(25:50):
they have for for this many years. You've obviously talked
a few times about your family. I want to ask
about growing up the youngest of six with four older sisters.
I didn't have You didn't have one older sister. I
wish I had one. You had four. I don't know,
but one would have been lovely. Will Anderson is one
of the faces of the sport at Alabama's gonna be
um one of the top player should have been Heisman
finals his past year. I've talked to him about being

(26:11):
raised by four older sisters and how that shaped him,
give him perspective, a softness in a way you don't
usually hear a football player talk about it. How did
it shape you Stephen To grew up there with four
older sis and a strong mom. Well, you appreciate the
brilliance the courage of women. You recognize that no matter

(26:38):
how difficult you think you may have it, they have
it difficult too, and somehow, some way they persevere and
they keep on pushing forward. And particularly when you're a man,
black white has fandom matter. We all got a little

(26:59):
mancho this in us where we you know, it's other way.
We we we could handle it, We could do this,
we could do that, and then when those times come
and we want to give up. In most cases, you
might defer to another guy. In my case, I without hesitation,

(27:19):
deferred to women because the women in my life we're
extremely strong. No matter what obstacles came in their way.
We have to adapt and we have to overcome. So
I tell you a little story. Mark Shapiro, the former boss,
our former boss of ESPN gives me the show quite

(27:41):
frankly on ESPN two in two thousand and five. He
wants me to do it. I'm petrified. I'm scared that
I'm scared to death, like I ain't gonna host the television.
So what we're talking about, I mean, I can sit
up there and get my opinion about something not covering
I come of basketball, it's come of football. I can
do that, but I can't hold. I don't know how
to read a prompt. Us, don't know how to do this.
I'm no Stewart Scott, I'm know John saw this. I'm

(28:03):
no Chris Burman and he's I don't dare Patrick. I
don't know this stuff. This is rage. I can't do this.
And my sister Linda's it was like, oh, so we
are punk. Now that's what we are. We were were
a punk. That's what we are. I mean, that's what
we do. We're scared, we're scared of a challenge. What
the hell is this? And literally ripped into me. She

(28:26):
she called me names that I won't even repeat on
this podcast. I mean, she was like, what the hell?
This is not my brother? I don't know you scared? What?
What do you embraced this? You take this challenge, This
is your opportunity to show what you're made of. What
the hell are you doing? And this she reminded me
of what my late brother had said to me, because

(28:46):
he died in the cars in nineteen ninety two. In
October of nineteen ninety two. That August of nineteen ninety two,
two months before he passed away, while I had just
graduated from Winston Salem and was coming into the journalism business.
My brother looked me in my face and said, you're

(29:08):
gonna be a star on sp one day you watch,
You're gonna do this. You're gonna be recognized one of
the best who ever did it the next Howard Coastal
stuff like that. He was saying this stuff. Obviously shared
that with my family, and my sister at that time
reminded me of what he said, and she said, he's

(29:29):
rolling over in his grave right now because his little
brothers and effant punk. And I called Mark Shapiro five
minutes later. I said, I accept, because she had challenged
me like you don't run. You embrace challenges, you don't
run from them. And I called him and I said,

(29:51):
make the numbers right, and I accept. I'll do the show.
But it was feeding off of that conversation with my
sister Linda. That's powerful. Linda could be a great life coach,
but it's more powerful when it's blood. That that's that's
a great story, Steve, and I you know, I lost
my mom. Um, it was very painful to watch her
fade away. It was alzheimer as you become uh an

(30:14):
echo of yourself, your your shell of yourself. We never
had that conversation that apparently you've talked about having with
your mom, where she could say, listen, I've taught you
a lot. Here's what I hope you've learned when you've
listened to me. Here's how I hope you use it. Yeah,
so you lose her, It's tough, it's devastating. The finality
is always destroys your heart. But you had that. How

(30:37):
often have you used that? Every day? Um? As you said,
you lost her mother, God bless her. My condolegens to
you and your family. Um, but you know what I'm
about to say. It never leaves you. You carry her
with you wherever you go. She's there with you in spirit.

(30:59):
You can recall times. It could be you sitting down
having lunch of dinner, you just lounging around the house,
hug getting on your getting you getting on your about something.
It could be anything. Every single day, something pops in
my head about what my mother would say, what my

(31:21):
mother would do, whether she chastised me, celebrate me, hug me, whatever,
something everywhere that I go, and no matter what I'm doing,
and it grounds me. What what it took me about
two or three years to get over was the fact
that it depressed me because no matter what I recalled

(31:45):
or remember, it would always come back to she's not
here anymore. And one of the things that I've said
to a couple of people is that I'm not married.
I'm single. Um, when you're single, you never think about this,
But the person who loves you most and loves you unconditionally,

(32:06):
the woman who loves you most and unconditionally is usually
your mom. If you've gotten married before your mother passes away,
there's obviously somebody that's some degree she's passed that man
too too, to love you forever, to be there for you, etcetera, etcetera.
But when you're single, that didn't happen. And so when
she's gone, one of the first thoughts to enter your

(32:27):
mind is the person who loved me most and unconditionally
it's no longer here, and you feel very lost and
very very bloom and it's hard to overcome. And the
only reason why, to some degree I've been able to
overcome it is because many people, believe it or not,
have reached out to me who have lost their mom

(32:49):
and they've been devastated, and they come up to me,
and I'd always tell them what my mother had said
to me in the weeks before she passed. She said,
why are you so sad? I appreciate the fact that
is sad enough to miss me, and I love you
for it. But this is the way it's supposed to be,
because would you rather it be the other way? If
you love me, you wouldn't because then that means I'd

(33:11):
be burying you, and that's not the way this is
supposed to go. And so I've always told men, specifically
who lost their mother, that story when they come up
to me and they asked me about it, just to
let them know, as much as painful as it is
that she's gone, she wanted it that way. She would
not have wanted to you to go before her. Remember

(33:33):
that and hold onto that. And that's what I try
to do, just to tell folks that, yeah, that's beautiful.
I think many would say the lessons don't stop even
from the next world, right, they continue. I talked about
risk taking. People are familiar with the risk you take
an ESPN. I'm a big general hospital viewer. My wife

(33:55):
Jennifer cooperates this podcast is a long, long time rabid
general hospital view Right. You probably wouldn't like the term rabbit,
but you get it. So you you took a professional risk.
You you play Brick, who I would say is a
tough character, a fixer, surveillance expert, expert for the mall

(34:16):
for Sunday Conto, one of the legendary figures played by
Maurice Bernard. Now that is a risk, now, you know,
because you're stepping out there. You're not you're not playing yourself.
You've done that on Placka and of the things. You
get those offers to come play yourself when you're playing
a character and you're working with iconic actors who are right, Maurice,
these are some of the most Leger eight figures in

(34:36):
the history of soap operas and you're doing scenes with them. Yeah,
I mean that's that's the deep end of the pool.
And you go in as a novice. At what point
do you transition from mistake avoidance, not wanting to screw up,
to like pursue an excellence because you can. You got chops.
If people listen to this have not seen you act.
They need to check that out. I gotta tell you, man,

(34:58):
I mean I appreciate you say, and that what I
would tell you is that I didn't view it as
a risk because it happened by accident. What happened is
is that I had made a cameo appearance in two
thousand and seven for like ten seconds, and then other
than that it was done. But I've always been a
General Hospital fan. I've been watching the soap opera for

(35:20):
now it's about forty six years, and been watching this
since I was eight years old. Because when you came
home from school, you were in the older TVs, a
couple of TVs we had in the house. We're both
our General hospitals. So if you want to watch TV,
you had to watch General Hospital. If not, you had
to go do your homework because those are the TVs.
Are stuff. That's what my sisters watching on TV. And
so I grew I was watching it from the days

(35:42):
of Frank Smith and a mob to the weather Machine
and the Cassadines and all of this othering so crazy.
And so I came there a few years ago because
they saw first take and saw me saying how much
of a big General hospital fan I was, and they
had me do a scene the executive producer of the show,

(36:05):
Frank Valentini, who's just a wonderful, wonderful guy, the brilliant
executive producer. They asked me to come on the show.
I did the scene with Maurice Bernard, the star of
the show, who plays the role of Sonny Carinthos, and
I come on the show and I do a scene
with him with him and the next thing I know,

(36:25):
they just stopped taping and Frank Valentini runs downstairs and
comes over to the set and he says, you were phenomenal,
and Maurice Bernard was like, yes, you were. And Frank says,
what we want to know is do you have time
to do this? I said, do what they said. We

(36:45):
want to make this character a permanent character, for a
recurring role on this show. And I said done, Yes,
I said please, I say anytimes I got I said,
I gotta schedule, I gotta onor my obligation to is
in have to come first. But anytime I could be
out here to do this, I will do it. It's
not a problem because it's totally fun with me. And

(37:06):
so from that point forward, Maurice Bernard has looked at
me and he says, I know you don't believe it,
but you have it. He said, I've been around for
a long time. He said, you have it. Whatever that
it is, you just got it. And he said, I'm
telling you, I've been in this business a long time
and a lot of people can't do what you do.
They get in front of that camera, those lights, cameras

(37:27):
actually come on, and then nervous as hell, and I said,
we don't think. I wasn't. I was gonna say, come on,
you're telling me you just slid in there. And this
was feeling natural. First take these days from soap operacy,
it is first take. You don't get a chance to rehearse.
Sound like the old days. You gotta nail it. It's
a team sport, it's collaborative. You screw up, everybody else
is wasting their tap exactly. That's exactly the part that

(37:49):
made me nervous. So my point is, I've never viewed
myself as an actor because all I'm trying to do
is memorize my life just so I don't screw it
up for everybody else. You want to say, because if
you get it wrong. They have to do it over.
People have to stay longer. It could be this everybody's life.
You have to do your job. But Maurice Bernard deserves

(38:11):
all the credit. Is actually two guys. I'm actually blessed
and fortunate. Chris, I know the two biggest soap opera
stars arguably in history. I'm very very good friends, great
friends with Eric Braden, who plays Victor Newman on Young
and the Wrestless. He's a huge first take fan. And
his son, Christian is a phenomenal director. He um, you know,

(38:33):
he's done a couple of movies and what have you.
And he, you know, he said to his father, this
dude's the best sports analysts and television. You gotta meet him.
And his father watched him, and his father watched me,
and he tweeted me one day and I and I said,
who the hell is Eric Braden? I had no idea.
It was Victor Newman for Young in the Wrestlers. I
knew it. I just never paid attention to what his

(38:55):
real name was. And so we made arrangements to see
one another in l a we had at lunch, and
we've been a separable sense every time. I'm in l A.
We always have a lunch of dinner. I'm very close
to him and he would give me tips. And then
when I went on the set with Maurice Bernard, Maurice
Bernard with got me, Okay, here's what I'm looking for

(39:17):
with Deceeed, think about this, think about this, think about that,
and he tell me and just guide me. And the
more he guided me, the better I look. So I'm like,
it's really them, It's it's especially Maurice Bernard just teaching
me on the spot on the set. This is what
I need from this, says you got it? If he's

(39:39):
sit that's high prayers. What are you gonna do with it?
Is there more acting? Oh? I'd love it to be.
I mean, I don't pursue it per se, but when
people ask me, I definitely will consider it. That's what
that That's how Blackish came about. When I was on Blackish,
you know, because I'm friends with Anthony Anderson, but he's
not the one who called um, you know Ken you
Burrows and those guys do a great job and they

(39:59):
asked me come on the show, and I was happy
to come on and do a scene with with Anthony Anderson,
who I think is it's just a phenomenal actor. Um.
But the thing that I love but she's very funny.
But you were playing yourself, and you you're playing maybe
at slightly heightened version of yourself, and and you one
round one big and then then you didn't win the end.
But but that a little girl about yourself, so that

(40:22):
youughter got me. But I think what I love about
it is that when you're acting, you can play any
role that the road dick. You can play any character
that the road dictates for you, and so you can
be something else. And the fact that you can be
something else is a huge, huge deal. And not only that,
it comes in handy because when you're on live television
doing first take every day, sometimes you gotta put on

(40:43):
your acting chop in terms of your mood. Might come in,
a little tired mike coming, a little sluggish might come
in because you know, family or friends or somebody annoyed you.
But the audience don't want to hear that the lights
are on, it's time, it's showtime, and they want what
they want from you. And so knowing that that's what
you've got to bring to the scene acting wise, that
also helped me doing first take as well. Where do

(41:06):
you get the stamina mentally, physically do you get the
voices the instrument? You gotta take care of the voice
because you're using it, You're you're you're testing and challenging
it every day. I mean, look, you had you woke up.
People don't know this except maybe a lot of your
hardcore um IF viewers, but you rang in in the hospital.
You had you had a fully vaccinated right, but you

(41:27):
had a bad bout of COVID pneumonia both lungs as
you've described it, and it was dicey, and you did along.
You took a long time off. You had to kind
of come back and maybe with a different perspective, rebuild
your stamina. Yeah, I'm passionate about I love my job,
so that helps. UM. I know how to pace myself

(41:47):
to some degree. That helps. But COVID was a different animal. UM.
I'm not in the greatest shape in the world, but
I ain't in bad shape. UM. My exercise a few
days a week. UM. And to be in a situation
where I was just laboring with my breathing, uh, to
have pneumonia in both lungs, to get progressively words to

(42:09):
go through the hallucinations and all of this other stuff,
delusions and everything was crazy. Um. But I think the
scariest moment was um New Year's Eve, because I visited
the hospital twice for New Year's Eve. Around ten thirty
that night before the ball dropped. An hour and a
half before the ball dropped, I was feeling really, really
really bad, and the nurse came in there and they

(42:32):
looked at my X rays and stuff like that and
took X rays of my chest and what have you.
They did all of that, and they turned around and
they said, what's your family's number? We need to call him.
They said, we're gonna try something, but this is pretty bad.
And I think what ultimately ended up happening was that

(42:52):
several weeks earlier, I had an endoscopy perform because my
vote was my throat was a little bit raspy and
my stomach was hurting, and they found out that I
had and inflamed esophagus and a bacterial infection. So the
combination of the two put me in a bad spot.
COVID piggyback off that and so if you're already having

(43:16):
problems with your esophagus and then COVID comes in, it
swarms you, and so that's where the ultimately the pneumonia
came into play, and everything and nothing seemed to be working.
And it turned out that they put me on steroids
and an antibiotic and took me off the antibiotic that
I was on for the endoscopy, and that ultimately made

(43:37):
me better in a matter of hours and ultimately got
me through COVID. But it was a real, real big
Tom scared that particular moment of time because my doctors,
they continue to tell me, had I not been vaccinated,
I wouldn't be here. They told me I would have
been gone. Yeah, holy ship, I mean that that's not
supposed to happen a fully vaccinated person, this late in

(44:00):
the COVID game, and you're they're telling you maybe you
better call your family. Yeah wow, I mean I know
that you you had plenty of acquired wisdom and resilience.
But you come back after that. And what we do
on one level is pretty silly stuff. We get we
get to talk about athletes and games and sports and
stuff like that, and people are out there doing real
world jobs, including people that are taking care of you
in the hospital. What what did that do when I did?

(44:23):
You see you're fired up to get back on TV.
But when you come back and the lake goes on
and its first take time, how are you a changed person?
Stephen A? From that the first business I thought, I
was reminded of the inherent responsibility that I have. Of course,
I was appreciative of my family and my loved ones,
so there was an elevated level of appreciation that went
on from there. But then to go back on the

(44:46):
air after a month off with so many people looking
for me, wondering what was going on? Where am I?
Colleagues all over the place, friends, everybody, because they've never
seen me take off that amount of time in my career.
I took off more between mid December and mid uh
January sick watse for sick days more than I'm taken

(45:07):
off in my entire twenty eight year career combined. I
mean I used like thirty six days for crying a lot.
I was really bad, and so to come back and
to see just the world and flux as it be
as it pertained to COVID, I felt an inherent responsibility
just to let everybody know what happened to me. Make
your own decisions. You got your own doctors, your medical experts,

(45:31):
you know what your health situation is. I'm not going
to get into all of you should be vaccinated or whatever,
even though I think you should. That's your business. But
I was basically, I basically felt an obligation of bringing
to perspective this virus is real. COVID nineteen is real.
And when you're walking around without a mask, when you're

(45:52):
walking around being completely oblivious or disinterested or apathetic towards
how the next first you could be harmed, that's where
it's Unamerican. That's where we're not our best selves, you know.
And I wanted to send that message because my sister
smokes every day. I hate it. She's a smoker. She

(46:13):
got COVID from me and she was fine in three days.
I don't smoke. I'm a casual drinker, I exercise all
the time, and I almost died. And so for me,
it was like, it can happen to anybody, and you
don't know why, So let's be considerate enough to think
about our fellow woman, and man, it leads to the

(46:35):
point where we're not jeopardizing somebody else. And that was
a message that I felt obligated to come back and
bring because they say, I'm the face of ESPN. It
is the worldwide leader. We have tremendous reach and with
that position comes responsibility, and to me, that needed to
take precedent over anything else. And that's why I came

(46:58):
back the way that I came back. My first focus
was to deliver that message and to let everybody know, Yeah,
I recovered, but I went through hell in order to
get here. Let's think about that for a second. That's
what I tried to do. Yeah, you had another way
that you powerfully use the platform, well said, Well, your
viewers are glad that you're back. Ready to work? Is

(47:19):
you need to roar with full energy with when Chris
Matt Russell comes on every Wednesday, the first take has
become become appointment TV. Not that the show isn't every day,
but when when he comes in and tries to match
your energy, tries to match you that that I've known
him forever, I mean that is that is Uh? Does
that feel like, hey, these are the minutes of the

(47:39):
week when I really got to put the gloves on
and go at it or is it just you know
for me personally? Um year from the standpoint that he
is mad or Russ. So the man doesn't have his
own show. He's that is on the channel, you know,
I mean, he's got he's got, he's got damn near
cult following for crying out loud. We get all of that.
But you know, I'm old in the sense. You know,

(48:01):
one of the greatest compliments I've ever received when I
first came back to ESPN two thousand and eleven, everybody
was shaking my hand, good to see you, blah blah, blah,
blah blah, and then Boomer Chris Burman shook my hand
and he said, welcome home. He never should have left.
And that meant the world to me, coming from somebody
like him. And I bring all of that up to say,

(48:21):
you know, I might be younger than some folks, same
age and some folks or whatever, but I'm old school
at heart. I know who paved away from me. You know,
I remember all of y'all. I remember listen, I remember
Howard Costell back in the day. I remember Jimmy the Greek,
I remember Earth Cross, Brent Musburger on the New Side,
Ted Copple, you know, Peter Jennings, you know Dan Rather

(48:43):
Tom Broke, call I remember, you know, the John Saunders
of the world, to Dan Patricks, to keep the Oberman's
of the world, the rich eyes is of the world.
You know, you and Kirk Curves should have been doing
a great job on these lead corpse. So you know,
all of these guys rich eyes, and listen, what what
ESPN is, what this industry is is because of the
people who preceded me. And so when everybody comes along

(49:06):
now and it's about the younger generation and it's about
the younger demographic, I get that that's the audience, but
I refuse to allow anybody to ever think that I
am somebody that, in catering to that younger audience is
gonna forget the people that put me in a position
to cater to them. So I feel an inherent responsibility

(49:27):
of somebody who's seen as having some kind of gravitational
pull with that younger audience to sort of pull that
audience over to me in a way that reminds them
of the people who preceded me. That's a big, big
deal to me. Don't forget the people who paved the way.
Know some semblance of your history, and that's what I

(49:49):
try to do, and when I look at mad Dog Russo,
he was doing it in the eighties, he and Mike
for Incessor Mike and the Mad Dog started sports talk radio.
And I'm like, wait a minute, I'm not forgetting that.
I want the world to know who he is. I
want them to see what he brings to the table.

(50:09):
I want them to know and understand his value. And
I love the fact that he looks differently than I do,
and think differently than I do, and come from a
different cultural background than I do. Because I want the
audience to know I'm not here just to tell you
how I feel. I want you to have it all
and to make your decision based on how we debate
one another. I think that's the fair and right thing

(50:32):
to do, and I'm very very big on that. Yeah,
we grew up watching and admiring a lot of the
same icons beginning you mentioned Cosell, Jim McKay, many others.
It's it's really thrilling when you actually get to bridge
and work with some of those people later in their careers,
earlier in your careers. That's been a thrill for me.
I'll leave you with this question because we talked about
challenges and risks. I think improvement and growth and not

(50:55):
just expected, they're essential to us. So what's what's when
you look forward and knowing that in this business, sometimes
it doesn't end well, even for the legends, it's I
don't know what it is. Sometimes it doesn't end well.
What's what's next for you? What are the areas where
you say I could continue to grow and improve and
do something better or do something different. Well, I don't

(51:19):
rule out the possibility that this next this last contract,
and I've got over three years remaining on it could
be my last on first take. UM, that remains to
be seen. I thoroughly enjoy doing it, but I'm anxious
to do other things. I started my own production company,
Mr Essays Productions. I want to show my producing chops

(51:41):
to produce content sitcom, scripted and unscripted, doctuseries, drama series,
those kind of things, even film. Eventually, UM, I want
to start my own podcast company. I have an aspiration
to do that. UM. I'm still gonna I'm gonna I'm
gonna elevate my acting chops to some degree. I'm gonna
do more or that. UM definitely so UM and my

(52:03):
ultimate aspirational as well on camera is to do late
night television. When I think about Stephen Gobert, I think
about Jimmy Fallon, I think about the great Jimmy Kimmel. Um.
I come back to the days of UH, you know,
Johnny Carson, David Letterman, Jay Leno, are Cineo hall Um.
I saw all of this stuff, and you know, they

(52:24):
basically celebrate the great, great things that people are doing.
I've been debating and then being combat up for years,
but I want to step back and have a good
time and show that I know how to have a
good time and I can help others shine as well
and celebrate the great things that they do. So, you know,
again answer that question. Being a producer and with my

(52:46):
production company behind the scenes, doing late night television in
front of the camera, those are my primary two obligations.
And how soon that will happen remains to be seen,
but I would prefer much sooner then later. Well, I
can't wait to see all the things that unfold next.
Look forward to reading the memoir you mentioned UH in

(53:07):
about a year's time. Stephen A. Smith. You always bring it, man,
and thank you for bringing it here. I'm grateful for
you and continued success. I appreciate you, Chris Man, thanksful
the great work that you do on it, and proud
to call you a colleague. Man. Thank you so much
for having me. I really appreciate Stephen his time in
a very busy schedule and for saying yes immediately to
this request. I really enjoyed getting to know him a

(53:30):
little bit. I hope you enjoyed seeing different sides to
the man, things that contribute to making him the great
broadcaster that he is. As always, grateful to my co
executive producer on the podcast, Jennifer Dempster and A. Jason
Whitehill for his editing skills. Please subscribe to the podcast,
review it, leave feedback on my Instagram at Chris Fowler

(53:52):
or at Chris Fowler dot com. I'll talk to you soon.
M