THE GEN-Z ATHLETE: A DEEPER UNDERSTANDING

Bridging the gap to young athletes… what moves and motivates them. Sports Psychologist Dr. Kensa Gunter also reveals elite athletes’ mental wellness tools that can better all of our lives.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
What is it with young people these days? How many
conversations have started with that question that complaint Just in sports,
there's a clear generation gap when it comes to athletes
in gen Z. Those are the ones now in college
and high school and very early in their pro careers.
Their loyalty, toughness, resilience, and commitment to team are being

(00:22):
loudly questioned by some folks in older generations. My guest
is Dr Kensa Gunter, an esteemed sports psychologist and one
of the smartest people I've met when it comes to
gaining a deeper understanding and appreciation for where young athletes
are coming from, ways to reach and motivate them and
maybe melts away some misconceptions. Kensa's work with athletes from

(00:44):
the Atlanta Falcons and Georgia Tech and organizations like the
NBA and U S Olympic Committee. But Kenson's field of
expertise is much wider than sports. We also talk about
useful tools for all of us to improve mental wellness
and ways to proactively treat our total health well cancer.
I am so excited about this conversation I could geek

(01:04):
out on the topics of psychology and sports psychology of
young people areas you're an expert in, so I'm going
to approach this with a genuine enthusiasm but hoping to
learn a lot from you today. Well, thank you for
the opportunity to be here. I am absolutely looking forward
to this conversation, and like you, I could geek out
on the same topics and so I'm really hoping that

(01:26):
the audience gets something from this and it's interested in
what we have to discuss, no doubt, that's our job here.
Let's talk about your work with younger people. I've seen
you give amazing talks explaining concise, concisely and beautifully what
is inside the head of what has become known as

(01:47):
generations Z kind of the post millennials born nineties seven
or later, so roughly twenty four years old or younger,
and some of the things that confound people in my
generation and in your generation, different generations. About this younger group,
is there unique way of looking at things? And in

(02:07):
the world of sports, lots of older people complain about
younger people because of things they don't do, the ways
that they don't think like we think, what can you
share with the group about you know, this generation, the
characteristics in general understanding that generations are generalities and there's
a lot of diversity and complexity within a generation. What
have you found there the common threads for folks who

(02:30):
are in gen Z. So, so the first thing I
want to say is is that when we think about
generations and the uniqueness that exists in generations, the uniqueness
exists across all generations, right, So we think of it
as a facet of diversity. And so when we look
at this current generation, what we have to do is
look at the context in which they were developing in
their formative years, what was going on in the world

(02:51):
around them, right, And so this is the generation that really,
if you think about it was was raised in the
time and if we think about sports like professionalization of
youths for the era of the helicopter parents or the
law more pearance, right, the idea of instant access to information,
and so you have a generation who's used to those

(03:11):
things being very commonplace world. And so this is a
generation that really is interested in belonging. They're interested in meaning,
they're interested in having opportunities to showcase their abilities. They're
interested in connectedness. But with the era of social media
and technology, they're also very interested in expressing their individuality.

(03:33):
They're interested in understanding the why behind certain things, right.
I mean, we live in the Google era where you
can google anything and in five seconds, so they're interested
in understanding the why. I understand how they fit in
a larger puzzle. Puzzle. This is a generation that is
more diverse culturally than any of our past generations, so
they're very interested in again understanding and allowing space for

(03:55):
unique differences. Um. But it's also a generation who may
have had different experiences as it comes to learning how
to manage frustration, learning, how to deal with setbacks and disappointments, UM,
learning how to develop what previous generation might think of
as some of those kind of automatic skills that you
just get from from moving through day to day. They

(04:17):
may not have been had the opportunity to develop those
skills in the organic way that previous generations did. So
we may need to teach a little bit more for
this generation to help them understand some of those principles
that may feel automatic and commonplace again to generations in
the past. Yeah, as those things apply to attention span.

(04:38):
You mentioned handling adversity, UH with patients. Some of the
things that have always taken time to learn. What does
it speak to the current situation in college athletics where
the transfer portal exists and a couple of thousand players
are in the portal because they're seeking a new opportunity,
a fresh start, and and choosing to when the time comes,

(05:00):
maybe opt out of a bowl game because they want
to preserve themselves for their own individual careers down the line.
Things that just rock the world of of baby boomers
and other generations. What does it say about this young
group that that they don't think like we want them
to think all the time? Yeah, I think historically what
we have thought of and what we have placed value
and is this idea of loyalty and this idea of

(05:22):
enduring right that was a common principle and theme that
existed in the world of sport kind of you just
you sacrifice for the team, You endure, you suck it up,
you you deal with whatever the circumstances may be in
the situation that you're in. But again, what I think
we're seeing with this generation is a desire for the
values that they hold personally to match the values of
the team in which they're on or the university in

(05:44):
which they're attending, and I can really what I've seen
is a connection between this and what I mentioned earlier,
that professionalization of sport. If we think about the youth
sport landscape right now, you have not only the school
the teams that exist at the school, but you have
community based teams, you have travel teams. It really is
um a very intense and robust endeavor. When you think

(06:07):
about youth sport, you have different teams that may recruit
kids from across town. It's not that you play in
the on the team that's in your area. You may
be recruited by a team across town to be the star,
to have the opportunity to get the playing time. And
so that's what kids are familiar with it at a
very young age. So the idea that they would take
that mentality that I can go to a different team

(06:28):
and be a star and get the opportunities that I want,
it's something that just stays with them. It doesn't seem
like a foreign concept to them in the way it
seems like it is to us. But that has become commonplace.
If we think about the elite sport youth circuit that
exists across multiple sports, kids are recruited kids are showcased
as being stars at a very young age, and so

(06:49):
I think it's not that we're seeing college kids do
something different. College kids are doing what they're used to
doing in they're they're just mirroring the experience that they've
had in youth sport now at the collegiate level, because
they do want an opportunity, and they are thinking not
only about the team's success, but they are thinking about
a branded name and creating opportunities for themselves. I've that's

(07:11):
a great point that is not often considered when we
judge college athletes. This is all they've known right since
youth sports, So it doesn't seem like they're quitting on
their team when they're seeking a different opportunity. They don't
even view it that way. I think there is a
concern by people who are trying to motivate and and
coach this generation who are from a different generation, that

(07:32):
there is perhaps not enough concern for the name on
the front of the jersey and concern only for the
name on the back of the jersey. How do you
see that? Yeah, I totally think that. Um, what we
have to understand is that there has been a movement
and a shift for a while now, but definitely in
the last few years to really emphasize and focus on
the person of the athlete. I think historically in the

(07:54):
world of sport, we've done a really good job of
celebrating and acknowledging the performance and really honoring and elevating
that while at sometimes not even really acknowledging or honoring
the performer and the person that that that executed that
awesome performance. And so to your point, I think thinking
about loyalty, the team really speaks to the front of
the jersey, but truly what you do see is this

(08:16):
increased awareness and attentiveness to the name on the back right,
because that's a person who is having a lived experience,
regardless of what sport context they're in. And I really
think when we think about teams, organizations, cultures, it's about
how are you creating a system that allows that individual
to thrive, right. I don't really think it's that kids

(08:37):
want to transfer and go to different schools, just because
I really think it is they want to be in
environments where they feel like they are valued, respected, where
they feel like they have an opportunity, where the work
that they put in might an opportunity that they get
on their field of play, and they really want to
know that the team that they're part of cares about them,
particularly given how much they are often sacrificing for the team.

(09:00):
So yes, not only do we need to think about
the name on the front, but we also need to
be really mindful of um and express care and concern
for the name on the back as well. You work
with NFL teams and be a teams. The Olympic Committee
will get to all those things. But you use the
word culture, and so often it's well, does this player,

(09:23):
this person fit into our culture and shouldn't they sublimate
some of their own personality traits to fit into this
culture because the collective is everything. That's not necessarily the
way a lot of younger athletes view it. Is it? Well,
I think the assumption is is that just because we
share colors in a jersey, that we have a culture. Right.
I think a lot of teams make that mistake and

(09:44):
think just because we're all under this umbrella, that means
that a culture is automatically created. And really, culture is
reflected in your actions, right, It's reflected in what you value.
It's reflected in how you treat one another, whether we're
talking coaches to coach, coach to athlete athletes athletes like,
culture has to be created, and I think one of
the things that we really have to be conscious of

(10:05):
and really really have to ask ourselves, is what is
the culture we're creating? Right? Certainly everybody in competitive sport
wants the culture of winning, But what else is embedded
in this culture? Do we have an environment or are
we cultivating an environment that allows for folks to come
in with the strengths that they have, also with the
weaknesses that they have, and can we create an environment

(10:25):
that helps them to grow and thrive and fail and
make mistakes and learn and still come together for this
common purpose, in this common goal. It's not that everyone
has to be the same on the team, right, We
just need to create space for everybody to contribute. I
think of it as a puzzle, right, And if you
think of a team, and everybody on that team represents

(10:46):
a unique piece of the puzzle. All the puzzle pieces
aren't the same, but we need them all in order
to have a complete picture. And so what I think
you see is again you see individuals and wanting to
be a part based system that values them, right. They
want it to be a two way street. They don't
want to be the only ones showing commitment, dedication, heart

(11:08):
and passion to the team. They want the team to
actually show some of that back to them too. Yeah,
and being valued takes different forms from making money sharing
in the amazing revenues of college athletics through n i
L dollars. They see their coaches being paid ten million
dollars and more, breaking contracts going places, uh in the

(11:29):
middle of a contract for greener pastors, and wonder why
why they shouldn't share in that as well. You know,
coaching this generation cancer has been a puzzle these athletes
were talking about. In this age group. Are are coached,
some of them by boomers born for six Generation X
coaches in their fourties and fifties. And now there's you've
got millennials, folks born between one and nineties six, you know,

(11:52):
at forty and younger. They're millennials coaching in the NFL,
the NBA. So that's just you know, one generation removed.
But what are the challenges that are may be different
from other generations and trying to motivate and reach Gen Z,
you know, I think the bottom line is this. What
we have to understand is that regardless of UM, the
generation that someone identifies with UM, we really have to

(12:15):
focus on developing relationships with folks and we really have
to focus on understanding them. Right. There's a quote that
says people don't care what you know until they know
that you care. And so I think the real issue
and the not real issue, the real opportunity, let me
say it like that, The real opportunity exists in asking
ourselves the question, what are we going to do to
try to understand these young athletes that we're working with

(12:38):
and what are we gonna do to try to reach them?
And we can't just place that responsibility on the athletes
to make all the adjustment. It may mean that me
as a coach or me as a therapist, right, who
who identifies in Generation Z? I mean Generation X? I'm sorry,
me as a therapist was in Generation X. I may
have to adopt my style to meet the person that's
sitting in front of me. Right. I think smart coaches

(12:59):
to do that, but they worry you can't coach this
generation hard because if I raise my voice, I I'm
not you know, consciously supportive and nurturing they're out the
door like tomorrow to the other program. That's what older
coaches worry about with this this current generation. And again
I would say that I don't think that it's that
this generation can't take criticism or can't take hard coaching, um.

(13:22):
But I do think we have to be conscious that
that that has to be balanced right with praise. There's
nothing wrong with constructive criticism. But nobody only thrives as
an environment where they're only hearing about the criticism and
hearing about the things that they're doing wrong. So we
have to be conscious of balancing that with positive feedback,
with instructive feedback, balancing that with praise when they do

(13:44):
something well. I know sometimes in sport there's this idea
of well, if I tell them that they're doing something right,
they won't be motivated. That's that's a that's a myth
in fact, right, And so I don't think it's that
this generation can't handle the toughness. What I do think
is that this generation in some ways wants to understand
the purpose for the toughness. There needs to be a

(14:07):
purpose for the toughness, but beyond that it needs to
be balanced and if you have a relationship with someone,
then offering that constructive feedback and that criticism feels like
just that feedback and criticism as opposed to a personal attack.
There's an article that recently came out about the Los
Angeles Rams and they talk about how there are some

(14:27):
principles of positive psychology that were integrated into their system,
their organization, and how it contributed to the field within
their team a feel of respect. They said there was
no yelling, coaches didn't yell, people had conversations, they talked
to one another. They were able to give feedback, but
they were also able to come together and work toward
a common goal that resulted in them winning the Super Bowl.

(14:48):
And so I think again we have to shift that
idea that tough love, tough coaching, hard coaching is the
only way to reach folks and understand in the context
of a relationship, you can had that constructive feedback, but
it has to be balanced with respect, and it has
to be balanced with education so that folks can learn
and not just Gil attacked Rams of cars coached by

(15:10):
Sean McVeigh, who's millennial. He's just thirty six years old,
brilliant guy and has a very young orientation to the staff.
You talked about, you know, working with NBA an NFL players.
You know John morant is in this generation, um Jamaar
Chase and Justin Herbert in the NFL are are under
twenty five years old. You've got maybe fifteen guys in

(15:33):
the NBA who began this season as teenagers. Joshua Promote
for the Spurs, who's having a good rookie season, just
turned nineteen. In your work with pro athletes who are
very young, what is the dynamic there? That's that's different
about college where for generations none of the power was
in the hands of the college players. In pro sports
is different, I mean, certainly in the world of pro sport,

(15:55):
it's it's a different experience than being in collegiate sport.
There may be some overlap, says it relates to just
being in the world of elite sport. When you think
about athletic identity, the public nature of their lives and
how they are um constantly living their life in the
public eye right like that, those things are um certainly
commonplace when we think about the transition from college to

(16:16):
professional sports. Because the difference, one of the biggest differences
is pro sports is a business right, whereas collegiate sport
exists in the context of an academic institution. And so
I think when you think about these young athletes who
are coming in, it really is about helping them make
that transition from college to this world of pro sport
and understanding what that means. Right. It's a it's a

(16:39):
steep learning curve, but the idea of still performing at
an elite level, right because that's what they're expected to do,
but managing some of the other transitions, the length of
the schedule, the diversity that exists within the organization as
we're talking about generational diversity and how to navigate that space,
um thinking about how to manage their personal lives with

(17:01):
this new professional life right and still perform, thinking about
managing family relationships, romantic relationships, relationships with new teammates, relationships
with new coaches. It really is providing them support as
they navigate the newness of this professional sport landscape. That's
that's really what we try to do, and that may
look different for every individual. Right. That's why experts like

(17:24):
you are hired because you just you iline a lot
of complex stuff. That's life. It's sports. It's the explosion
of fame for many of them, wealth that's beyond their
imagination and the and the complications that surround that. Besides
what use outline, what are some of the other challenges
that that athletes of that generation have expressed to you
who are already UM in the professional ranks. I mean,

(17:47):
I think one of the things that people might not
think about sometimes is the loneliness that may come with
making the transition UM. In the world of collegiate sport,
your schedule is made for you, and you're constantly around
your teammates, if not other athletes in the department. But
when you may the transition to pro sport, again, you're
around your team when you're practicing, when you're traveling, when
you're playing games. But there is a lot of downtime,
and so trying to learn about what is it that

(18:08):
I want to do in my downtime. How do I
want to spend this downtime in a way that allows
me to continue developing my identity outside of my sport,
but also allows me to engage in a routine that
allows me to show up and perform when I need
to write. So it's that balance of how do I
become a professional, right, how do I, um take a
different kind of charge over managing my time, managing my energy,

(18:32):
engaging in the things that I need to do to
do my job well, while also potentially exploring other areas
of my life that I may not have had time
to explore before. And sometimes there can be a loneliness
and a real uncertainty around thinking about who am I
outside of basketball? Right. But that's something that we really
mentioned early in the process because for all of these athletes,

(18:54):
at some point their sport will end, right, there will
be a career transition out, um, and we want people
to understand the sport is what you do, right, and
for many it's a large part of their identity, but
it's not your whole identity. So really just making that
adjustment and expanding the view that they may have with themselves.

(19:15):
You mentioned onliness that's interesting not from yourself and professionals,
but from the public. That may be a limited appetite
for people to express problems because you have defied incredible
odds by making professional sports. I mean you're literally one
in a million, Um, You're living the dream that so
many people have and and have. You know, Riches beyond

(19:36):
your wildest imagination, and yet you're a lonely and people
don't necessarily want to acknowledge that those problems are real
and significant. Uh yeah. I think sometimes people have this
idea that being in the public sphere or having access
to financial resources eliminates any stress and eliminates the reality
of you experiencing any kind of struggle, strife, or distress

(19:58):
in your life, right, And I think reality is is
that that's that's not the case. These are people. Yes,
they are extraordinary and what they do in their field
of play extraordinary, but they are people first, and being
in sport does not absolve people from some of the
ills and the struggles and the stresses that happen for
any of us as we're trying to navigate life. And
so I know, for something it's like but they have

(20:19):
access to so much, but they also have some unique pressures.
And again, like I said, there are people first. So
they're also trying to navigate relationships, understand who they are,
like I said, develop their identity, and they're also trying
to perform consistently at a high level on a public
stage where it has real implications um for their career,
for their ability to potentially provide for their family, real

(20:41):
implications that that they have to be mindful of and
that are constantly top of mind. And so there are
some there are some great opportunities, but again, the opportunities
don't erase the fact that as people, they still deal
with some challenges. To your pride, Graduate of University of Georgy,
you're drinking from a mug that says dogs on it,

(21:02):
and the dogs sit atop the college football world after
conquering Alabama. Finally we talked about this, uh about a
week or so ago. The collective psychology of sport fascinates me.
I covered team sports and individual sports like tennis, but
let's focus on the team aspect and the SEC mythology.

(21:23):
Part of the mythology of Georgia, acknowledged by their fans
is that Alabama was the nemesis. Alabama was the ogre
that stood in the way, that constantly denied them their
dreams and stepped on their heart. And you know, I
was at the SEC championship game in Atlanta, and I
thought Georgia was the better team. They had the lead.
Alabama came back and overwhelmed them, so they rematch for

(21:44):
a championship, and that was a big question. Cancer is
Alabama in Georgia heads is Nick Saban in the head
of Kirby Smart. Of course, Saban was his mentor and
taught him a lot of what he knows about coaching.
What what's your thought about that aspect of team sports
and the collective psychology that has to be overcome sometimes

(22:06):
to reach your goals. I mean, certainly when you are
participating in as teams, for the success of the team
depends upon the ability of the individuals to come together
right and to be in sync in order to achieve
whatever it is that you're setting out to achieve. And
so certainly there has to be a synergy that exists
amongst the team. But also um that again, the reality

(22:28):
is if if you are playing an opponent and you
play them repeatedly right, and you have success sometimes, but
you have you don't have success at other times. That
also gets in your head. I mean, we think about
any competitive athletes. If I ask athletes generally what what
runs in your mind? The most most competitive athletes will
think about the times where they did not achieve the

(22:48):
goal they set out to achieve. So in that case,
I would say it's not so much the other team
is in their head, but we tend to recycle the
thoughts about our mistakes and our disappointments and the opportunities
or the moments where think we failed, and that can
stick with us and that can impact our ability to
show up in the moment. I think what has to
happen in those moments is trusting your preparation, understanding and

(23:08):
learning from those moments where you might not have accomplished
your goal, and trusting that this opportunity represents a new opportunity.
I think sometimes what can happen as athletes can think
that if a pattern is started where we are not
winning and not beating this opponent, that's gonna be a
pattern forever. But I think what what really has to
shift as understanding each competition represents a new opportunity. And

(23:30):
I think Georgia really embodied that this year and represent
and in realizing each opportunity each time we step on
the field represents a new opportunity. And yes, if we
allow any other team to get in our head, that's
gonna hinder our performance. What we need to do is
trust our preparation, trust what we know we're capable of
doing focus on our plan and that's what gives us

(23:52):
an opportunity to perform at our best. If you're thinking
about other people, that gets in the way of you
doing what you need to do. And so I would
say go dogs because that I have to say that,
But I think about that collective identity too, and that
people really in terms of fans, people get invested in
their team. There are there, they are alumni of the school.
Athens is also my hometown, so I feel like I'm

(24:13):
doubly supportive of Georgia, but it really is, you know,
this opportunity to rally behind a team that we identify
with and to see them overcome right odds and to
see them pushed through what has previously appeared to be
a boundary. Like we all celebrate in that and we
all in some ways kind of sharing that accomplishment, but

(24:36):
we didn't play one minute on the field. There's a
collective feeling of pride when you're invested in, you identify
with the team who you see reach such a pinnacle
in their performance. Right, that's well put. I mean Georgia
players this year, we're certainly not or shouldn't have been
too burdened by the fact that it had been forty
two years since the school won a national championship, and meanwhile,

(24:58):
Georgia had seen rivals like Florida and a few Alabama
win a bunch ll s you Auburn, Tennessee in the
interim since their last championship in nineteen eighty. That was
a big backdrop for that game. You you hope it
wouldn't get in the hair player's heads, it was certainly
in the fans heads. I mean, Georgia fans were weeping
and drinking and just celeb regular. It was quite a
unique experience to be a be just a broadcaster on

(25:19):
the periphery of that as an outsider, to watch that
that relief and that joy when finally you know, Georgia
got it done. Absolutely, And I think the other reality
is is everybody that's out there playing is good. We're
talking about the best of the best, right and it
is difficult to show up and and excel day after day,

(25:42):
week after week like that takes commitment and sacrifice and dedication.
And really you can think of it being who is
the team that performs best in this moment, right because
they're both still excellent teams Georgia prevailed in the national championship. Again,
we're thankful for that. But again we're talking about the
best of the best, competing day in and day out,

(26:03):
and that takes a lot of hard work, sacrifice, effort.
It is hard to show up and be elite week
after week, year after year. Um, And that's where I say,
you have to trust your preparation and really focusing on
the consistency that's required to endure throughout a season, whatever

(26:23):
season we're talking about, that's important too, And so UM,
I'm glad we got it done. And I also understand
that the same level of work and effort in preparation
will be needed next year in order for us to
be in a position to try to get it done again, right.
And that's that too, is a piece of the elite
athlete experience is it's the consistent UM excellence that really

(26:46):
is something that has to be sustained, and really, UM
is important when we think about these championships and just
winning in general. You have the tools to understand what's
going on. And I'm sure as a fan you were nervous.
You're wondering, are we gonna get this done? Are we
gonna blow this as a fan, you want it, you
want it, you want it to happen so much, and
then again, like you said, the joy and the relief

(27:06):
once it does happen, you you just kind of revel
in that until next season. You talked about the tools.
I'd like to you to explain more of the tools
that you've used in your professional life to help people,
if not silence the inner voice, but maybe hit it
on you when when the doubts come back up and
the here we go again and this is a repeating pattern,

(27:27):
and and all those things that can get in the
way of performance, including the connection to the result and
what's at stake in the moment, what when you could
tell people, because it's not just about athlete, just about
living your everyday life when those those inner voices coming
and intrude absolutely, So, what you're talking about now is
is our concepts that live in the field of applied
sports psychology, right, And when we think about sports psychology,

(27:51):
it really is thinking about the way in which we
teach skills and implement strategies to help elevate somebody's mental performance,
you know, in the same way that we think about
our physical performance, in the way in which we might
lift weights or engage in cardio training, or pay attention
to our nutrition in order to make sure that our
physical health is maintained. We also can do things to maintain,
elevate um, and enhance our mental and emotional muscles as well,

(28:15):
if you will. And so within the field of sports psychology,
we think about goals, right, what are we trying to achieve,
what are we trying to accomplish, and what are the
markers that we have for determining whether or not we're
meeting our goals of whether or not we need to
adjust our process in order to meet our goals. As
you talk about the attention and the the focus on results,
we really stress the importance of focusing on the process. Right.

(28:38):
If I think about I'd like to speak in the
form of analogies, and if I think about an analogy
standing at the bottom of the staircase and wanting to
get to the top, me thinking about being at the
top is not going to help me get there. What
I have to focus on is the process of taking
one step at a time. Right, So that's the notion
of focusing on process versus outcome. But we also talk
about things like motivation and internal motivation. We talk about

(29:00):
self talk, how you can quiet the doubt, but also
how you can enhance your internal cheerleader or advocate if
you will right to have yourself talk be something that
provides encouragement, direction, guidance as opposed to something that's just
allowed internal critics. Some of the other skills that we
use and focus on our mindfulness to help people stay
focused in the present moment um. You can't change the past,

(29:23):
you can't predict the future. Your power really lives in
the present moment. And we also talk and teach skills
of visualization and imagery. If you can see the image
of your mind, it increases the likelihood of being too
executed in real life. And then certainly team dynamics in
terms of communication, working together for a common goal and purpose,
understanding role clarity. These are some of the topics that

(29:44):
we talk about within the field of sports sight to
help enhance individual mental performance and also team mental performance
as well. And if athletes you're lucky enough and work
hard enough and the stars aligned, they get to championship events.
And we love championship events because of what is at state.
You know what's on the line and what's gone into it,
and you know Eminem fan, but you know Eminem talks

(30:07):
about you better lose yourself in the moment own it,
never let it go. You get one chance opportunity in
the lifetime. I guess it's tricky for an athlete to
to think about that kind of thing, even if it's true.
We've seen some of the biggest fighters, most mentally toughest
players in tennis, people like Serena Williams and Novak Djokovic,
have a chance at a calendar Grand Slam, and in

(30:31):
those occasions, as accomplishes they were, they were not themselves
in those moments. They could not elevate their performance to
even a normal level is quite subpar, just because they
allowed that pressure to kind of consume them seemingly. I
think it's it's important for us to understand that success

(30:52):
is not a straight line that that points upward. Right,
So the idea of losing matches are losing games, the
idea of failing in some capacity, that too, is a
part of the process of sport, and it's also a
part of um one success journey. Right. You can learn
things from those moments, and I do. There are moments

(31:13):
where you may show up and you just don't have
your a game. Again, that goes back to the idea
that we're not talking about robots. We're talking about people, right,
and there are many different things that might influence how
they show up on any given day. That doesn't take
away from their excellence. It actually just highlights their humanity. Right.
But I think if we think about Serena Williams, if

(31:33):
we think about um uh Novak Djokovic, if we think
about these athletes and these teams that consistently demonstrate excellence,
it's not that they're perfect, right, but it's more often
than not, and more often than most, they are able
to show up and and produce that a game. And

(31:54):
I think one of the things that contributes to that
is another thing we talked about in the field of
sports psychologist routines and coming up with your pre competition
routine and coming up with your game plan and your strategy,
and even having a post competition routine, because what that
routine does is it creates feelings of consistency, It allows
you to establish a habit, It allows you to have

(32:14):
some level of control over how you show up rather
than just leaving that to chance. You have no control
over who's on the other side of the net, the field,
the court, right, Like, you don't control your opponents, but
you can always control how you show up. And so
what we really try to do is create opportunities for
athletes to understand, what is it that I need to
do in order to give myself the chance to show

(32:37):
up and be my best, and how can I create
a routine that consistently allows me to do that and
then do it right. So it's not about, um, anything
that has to do with the opponents or the other people.
It's really about creating consistency with them, but then also
understanding there is somebody on the other side who's also
trying to be you and also trying to win, and

(32:57):
they're also trying to show up and be their best,
and some days there's other people that are better than you,
and that's okay, that's a part of the process. And so, UM,
I don't think it's that, you know, they crumble under
the pressure per se. Uh, it may be that they
didn't have their a game or maybe there is something
that got in the way of them being their best.
But again, I don't think that takes away from their excellence.

(33:18):
It just highlights their humanity, and what great athletes do
is learn from those moments and bounce back beautifully. Point
the concept of pressure just fascinates me because it's been
defined in many ways. Billy Gene king pressure is a privilege.
In that context, she means you've earned the right to
play in big matches that carry the pressure. But pressure

(33:39):
is also seen as a burden by some could be
seen by an inspiration. Some people feel that pressure is programmed.
In other words, it's external, it's from outside forces and
it doesn't come from within. How do you coach athletes
to sort of manage it acknowledging that it's going to
be felt, it's going to be there. It's not simple
to say push it away and say and focusing on

(34:00):
the process and the result doesn't matter because we're all human,
right absolutely, And when someone has invested um so much
time and energy and and sometimes money into being excellent
in a particular sport, they're invested, right, They're invested in
the outcome, and so that idea that they feel some
level of angst, anxiety, pressure around wanting to do well well,

(34:22):
that makes sense because that's why you're here and you're
invested in doing that. And I think when your question
is how do we kind of coach athletes around managing that,
the first thing is to try to understand that athletes
understanding of where that pressure is coming from, because, like
you said, that may be different for different athletes. There
may be some who feel the pressure internally to perform well,
there may be others who feel pressure from external sources

(34:45):
to perform well, And so really trying to understand where
are those feelings of pressure coming from for them, and
then identifying interventions that allow them to decrease the feeling
of pressure and increase the feelings of trust and to
increase their feeling and their confidence and their ability to
show up and execute their game plan. So it really

(35:07):
goes back to, rather than focusing on the pressure and
the potential the potential outcomes, trying to help them control
what's within their control right, how they show up, how
they execute, how they how they stay calm and poised
in moments where things may not be going their way,
but how they stay calm and poised and moments where

(35:29):
are going things are going their ways as well. And
so it's really about again helping the athlete control their
internal experience as a way of allowing them to show
up and perform in the way that they want to
when they need to win when they're competing. You point
in the earlier teams are just collections of individuals, but
it's the individual sports where the concept of pressure and

(35:52):
the inner voice just fascinates me. Whether it's tennis or
golf or Olympic sports, it can feel very lonely when
you don't have the support of a traditional team well
that you've got want to give sweat equity with. You've
come through adversity together. You're just out there by yourself
and you've done work with the U s o C
and trying to address the issues of mental health. For
Olympic athletes where the pressure is unique, right kens because

(36:13):
it comes around once every four years. Yes, there's other competitions,
but in many cases, your legacy, your ability to to
make a living off of your sport depends on how
you perform on this Olympic stage when it might be
ten seconds, it might be four minutes of your life
that will define that. And to just tune everything out
and be at your best. What a remarkable challenge that is.

(36:38):
And that's why it's amazing when we see athletes come
through in those moments on the Olympic stage. It's incredibly
remarkable when we think about those athletes who who are
within the U s o PC, And again, like you said,
the the frequency of their opportunity is less than it
is for some of our other professional sports that exists
here in the United States. Right, like you said, the

(36:59):
Olympics happens be four years, and so you're training and
sacrificing for years to get to this one moment. And
the idea that that doesn't feel pressure field, or the
idea that there's not some intense feeling around that. I mean,
of course there is, right, how could there not be.
But again, the goal is the same. It's to help

(37:19):
athletes kind of manage those emotions, acknowledge what the moment is,
but then manage the emotion and the feeling of it
so that they can still perform even on that grand
of a stage. Right. And that's what makes the athletes
so exceptional when we think about their performance. They are
excelling and executing on the grandest of stages UM and

(37:41):
that takes a lot of dedication, will preparation, practice, UM
and and mental fortitude quite frankly to be able to
do that. For the individual athletes, they may not have
a team around them, but many of them do have
training groups that they work with. They have coaches and
others in their performance team or staff who serve as

(38:02):
kind of that team that supports them. But it's it's
nothing short of extraordinary what they're able to do. Um,
like I said on the grandest of stages, Yeah, you
strike out three times in baseball as a game tomorrow,
you throw three interceptions as a game next weekend, And
and in many sports you can make plenty of blunders
and then recover and the final score makes everybody forget

(38:24):
that stuff. And some of these Olympic sports. You look
at the figure skating, you know, one fall and you're finished, right,
You have no chance to reach the top of the
podium and maybe not get any kind of a medal.
You know, obviously you you talk about the tools to
be ready for that. When someone doesn't come through in
those moments and they end up in a in a
chair across you and they feel like they have blown

(38:45):
that chance, yeah, it absolutely can feel devastating, right. I
don't want to ignore that part of it. It can
be devastating when you've practiced and tried, you've waited your
whole life quite literally for this moment, and then feel
as though you did not rise to the occasion. That
can be devastating and there can be feelings of grief.
There can be feelings of loss, There can be feelings
of shame associated with that. Um, there can be a

(39:06):
lot of pain wrapped up in that. Particularly if we
also add in the factor of athletic identity and thinking
about how much of a person's individual identity is connected
to their performance, and we see that a lot in
athletes who started participating in their sport at a very
young age. Like who they are as a person, it's
very much so tied to who they are as an athlete,

(39:27):
and so if they perform well, they feel good about themselves.
If they don't perform well, they may not feel good
about themselves. It's really that direct of a correlation. And
so um, yes, we try to help act. You try
to change that. They try to change that that that
that mindset that your your self identity is wrapped up
in in the result of a game. Is it is
it a losing battle? Is it challenging to do that? Oh?

(39:48):
I don't think it's a losing battle at all. I
certainly think it's something that we need to attend to
and continue to talk about, but it is. It's a
very it can be a very strong connection. If you
think about a person, if if through the context of
your it is where you get praise, validation, excessence. It's
where you feel confident, it's where you feel capable. It's
where many of your opportunities come from, whether it's scholarships

(40:09):
or financial opportunities. You can understand why for many of
athletes who again start at a young age or have
a lot of success, where who they are as a
person really can get wrapped up in there. So we
do work um within within our field to help people
understand that dynamic explore who they are beyond sports. And

(40:32):
I think things that we've seen in the last couple
of years is we've seen athletes, very elite athletes, some
own bios Naomi y Osaka, Kevin loved and Martin ros
and Michael Phelps. We've seen them come out and talk
about the mental health aspect of their experience. Right. They
talked about their mental health journeys. And it's not that
navigating and dealing with mental health concerns and challenges got

(40:55):
in the way of them being successful. But what we
understand is that these very elite athletes our elite not
because they don't experience challenges, but because they've learned how
to navigate them. And them courageously sharing their stories I
think has helped us to see exactly what you said,
that there's there's another side to this as well, And
certainly we can elevate the performance, but in doing that,

(41:17):
we don't need to dehumanize and ignore the human because
there is a person that's that's in there and that
we need to actually focus on and care about. So
as we think about athletic identity, as we think about
the realities of anxiety, depression, other mental health concerns that
may come with the pressure of being an elite sport,
we really have to think about that. And I think
athletes are asking and demanding that we see them as

(41:40):
people first and not just performers. Absolutely, I mean, mental
health and sports are front and center. What distinction can say,
if any, do you draw between mental health is just
defined by coping with pressure, coping with failure versus maybe
what be defined as more profound mental health issues that

(42:02):
require prolonged significant therapy. You listed some athletes. Obviously, it's
difficult to group them together because some have talked about
being in very very dark places and having profound problems
they had to navigate through that. We're connected to sport,
but not entirely wrapped up in sport, where some athletes
say that their mental health issues come from what we're
talking about in in their realm. YEA, and I think

(42:24):
that that gray area and that blurredline that you're referencing
really speaks to a misunderstanding in terms of definitions and
what mental health is in our society, particularly here within
the United States. When we say the term mental health,
we often think about mental illness. We often think about
the adversity, the stress um, the challenges, maybe the diagnosable conditions.

(42:46):
But truly, by definition, mental health is a state of
well being and which we're able to reach out, potential,
connect with others, work productively, and contribute to society. The
World Health Organization has defined it in that way. So
I like to expect and that definition and say, within
the umbrella of mental health, we have mental illness and
we also have mental wellness, and so mental illness is

(43:08):
a very real um can describes mental illness describes very
real conditions that might require professional help, whether it be
counseling and therapy or whether it's medication. And so mental
illness refers to medical conditions that create a disruption and
the way we think, the way we feel, and potentially

(43:30):
the way we behave So when we think about diagnosable
conditions such as depression, anxiety, on post traumatic stress disorder, UM,
obsessive compulsive disorders, and there are a host of other
conditions that are diagnosable, we absolutely need to be mindful
of providing UM competent um resources to help address those concerns.
But also if we think about again the other part

(43:52):
of the continuum of mental health, we can think about
mental wellness right and how we are proactively taking care
of our health and at any point in time, yes,
the individual, organizational, or societal factors that can impact our
mental health. I think we all can agree that the
last two years have been challenging in different ways because

(44:12):
of the global pandemic, and many people have reported feeling
that their mental health has been impacted as a result
of dealing with the ongoing uncertainty, change and transition that
we've been living in because of this pandemic. It may
not be that those individuals who say in their mental
health has impacted our feeling or now have diagnosable mental
health conditions, but it certainly can impact the way you feel, think,

(44:34):
and behave, and so feeling depressive symptoms or feeling anxiety symptoms,
or feeling decreased motivation or increased concern about what's coming,
certainly that can translate to an impact on your mental
health without being a diagnosable condition. So mental health a
state of well being. Mental illness refers to diagnosical conditions

(44:55):
that impact the way we think, feel, and behave. Mental
wellness refers to how we're roactively engaging in behaviors and
activities to maintain and elevate our mental health. I love
your way of concisely clearly expressing these I really do.
I don't. That's just perfectly perfectly expressed. I mean, I
think it's powerful to talk about proactive mental health and

(45:18):
and aside from awareness, self awareness, getting to know ourselves,
understanding how to listen to our our inner voice, what
can be important tools to have to proactively take care
of ourselves and others around us. Before it gets to
the the category of mental illness. Right. So um again,
I like to draw a parallel here between mental health

(45:41):
and physical health because sometimes it's easier for us to
think about the ways in which we take care of
ourselves physically. Um. If we think about again exercise, nutrition,
staying hydrated, um, all those things that we might do
to take care of ourselves physically, taking vitamins. Right, whatever
we may do to take care of ourselves physically, think
about similar activities that could help you to maintain and

(46:05):
manage our mental health as well. So some of the
common um mental health wellness strategies that I share with
folks are are some of them are similar. So exercise, certainly,
exercising and moving has benefits not only to our physical health,
but also to our mental health. It helps to release endorphins,
which can boost our mood simply moving and accomplishing some

(46:25):
kind of physical task and help increase our confidence as well.
Sleep is another We underestimate the value of sleep, but
sleep really is when we allow our bodies, including our minds,
to recharge and to reset um and to kind of
flush off the toxins of the day so that we
can be ready to perform and function on the following day,

(46:47):
So exercise, sleep. Social support extremely important, and it doesn't
It's not about the quantity of people in your social
support system, but it is the quality being around people
who are positive influences, who encourage support you. Being around
people who I like to say, feel your bucket, fill
your wellness cup, who it makes you feel good to
be around them is important. One of the things that's

(47:09):
come out of the pandemic is understanding the impacts of
loneliness and isolation, which can really have some detrimental health
sects and health effects, and so really being conscious of
connecting with a social support system that's positive good environmental health.
The other two that I'll mention gratitude. It sounds kind
of strange, but the idea of being able to identify

(47:31):
what it is that you are thankful for um and
and even in again the moment that we're in where
it may be hard sometimes to look beyond the challenges.
Even in moments the challenges, there are things that remain
unchanged and things that we can be grateful for, and
if we take a moment to intentionally identify those things,
it can have a boost to our our mental health,
um and our feelings of wellness, and then finally mindfulness.

(47:53):
I think there's been a mindfulness boom over the last
few years. There are several apps that exist that can
help in teaching and and teaching the principles of mindfulness
and helping one to engage in the practice. But what
mindfulness really is about is paying attention to the present moment.
And I'd like to say being where your feet are,
having your mind to be where your feet are. And

(48:14):
it really is a powerful tool that allows us to
monitor our emotions, regulate ourselves internally. It can help to
boost feelings of calm, confidence and help boost our esteem
UM and can help us really approach situations from the
standpoint of UM, what can I control? How can I

(48:34):
adjust in this moment as opposed to trying to are
just focusing on the challenges that may exist. Well, thank
you for bringing up mindfulness and gratitude to my favorite topics.
I begin every day with gratitude, and I think it's
great advice that you gave there. If you do that,
it's a great place to start the day because it
provides perspective, and sometimes perspective is needed when when adversity

(48:57):
hits and and time seem pretty gloomy. Is there anything
that you find it is crucial this conversation of narrowing
it back to sports psychology that we haven't covered that
you think is crucial to include in this conversation or
if we cover most of it, Yeah, I think I
would just reiterate that, you know, sports psychology is an
academic discipline. There are professionals out there that are trained

(49:20):
in the art of mental performance and mental performance consultation,
and so UM, certainly from youth athletes to pro athletes,
this idea of having professionals in place that help people
to develop themselves mentally. UM, it's really important. What I
would say to sports teams is if you're not attending
to the mental health or the mental performance of your athletes,
like your training program is not complete, right, because that's

(49:42):
a huge part of what kind of guides our behaviors
and our thoughts and how we show up and so UM,
I really do appreciate that within the world of sport,
this conversation is expanding, um, one to focus on the
person of the athlete and to to focus on our
mental performance, but also to focus on their mental health. UM.

(50:03):
The last point I would say, they're about the kind
of sports psychology pieces. Certainly, it's important to focus on
the individual, but we also need to focus on the
organization and creating organizations and teams and cultures that are
also characterized and defined by health and wellness. And that
creates space for athletes to be successful, but also for
them to fail so that they can grow, learn, thrive,

(50:26):
and and reach whatever performance heights they and the team
are are striving to achieve. You've had plenty of microdrop
moments here. I just want to end on this that
the work that you do with athletes who are young,
who are famous on the other end of the spectrum,
is by by nature confidential and private. But have you
had moments where you've done work with an athlete and

(50:47):
then you've seen the fruits of your labor and their
labor come to pass and had some kind of triumph,
and you've been able to to share in some way
in that joy because you knew how much hard work
went into without asking perhaps for a specific example, if
you're not able to give one. Sure certainly if if
because we as as sports psychologists and sports psychologic consultants

(51:10):
are human too, right, so if we are privileged enough
to be invited into someone's life to work with them
UM certainly seeing them make progress in the ways that
they want to It's it's um fulfilling. It's very fulfilling
and rewarding to see someone um engage in the work

(51:31):
and then move forward in their lives, whether we're talking
about a performance or whether we're talking about just living
their life in a way that feels better to them. Yes,
there are certainly moments of excitement for them. There are
certainly moments, Like I said, it's fulfilling, but I recognize
I'm not doing the work right. I feel like I'm
just a guide or I'm just accompanying them on their

(51:54):
walk because they've allowed me to do so. So I
really try to be very conscious of saying clearly, it's
not my work, it's their work. And if I am
so privileged and given the opportunity to work with them,
that's humbling. That's humbling, And I'm grateful for the opportunity
that I have to work with these phenomenal individuals who
also happen to be exceptional athletes. I told you Kencer

(52:18):
was tremendous grateful to her for her time and for
her passion for guiding young athletes. I found this conversation
really helpful for my life and my work, and I
hope you did too. She is a truly gifted speaker.
You can find plenty of her talks with a quick search.
I also want to thank my good buddy, Dan Learner
for his assistance on the episode and the introduction to

(52:39):
cancer recommend Dan's book You Thrive, How to Succeed in
College and Life based on his course at n y U.
As always truly grateful to my co executive producer Jennifer Dempster,
and to Jason Whitehel for his edity skills, and to
you for listening. We'd love you to subscribe and review
the podcast. I welcome all feedback. I'm Instagram at Chris

(53:01):
Fowler and the website Chris Fowler dot com. I'll talk
to you soon. M HM.