June 14, 2023 • 48 mins
After a hiatus of 10 months, police find the body of 17-year-old Diane Williams on September 6th, 1972. Diane would be the final confirmed victim of the Freeway Phantom. Sadly, police attention would be diverted away from the case by the Watergate Scandal. Plus, a suspect is revealed.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
You're listening to the Freeway Fanom, a production of iHeartRadio,
Tenderfoot TV, and Black bar Mitzvah. The views and opinions
expressed in this podcast are solely those of the podcast
author or individuals participating in the podcast, and do not
represent those of iHeartMedia, Tenderfoot TV, Black bar Mitzvah, or
their employees. This podcast also contains subject matter that may
(00:24):
not be suitable for everyone. Listener discretion is advised.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
It began that evening. She had cooked dinner that afternoon
and had done her little chores and what have you,
and so she asked us she could go and visit
her boyfriend. She had a boyfriend at the time who
lived near the recreation center where she worked at. And so,
(00:52):
because you know, she had done all of that, my
parents allowed her to go and visit him, which meant
she had had to take one bus and go straight
up Martin Luther King to get to his house. And
so I remember Diane going there, and I remember my
parents telling her, you have to be back home by
(01:12):
ten o'clock. We used to have a strict rule that
when the street lights came on, we had to come inside.
It's now after ten o'clock. My father worked at Lorton
Reformatory in Norton, Virginia at the time, and he worked
the graveyard shift, so he had gone to work, but
(01:34):
my mom was home and she had noticed that, you know,
it's ten o'clock, eleven o'clock and twelve o'clock and Diane's
still not home. All I remember is, boy, is dying
going to get in trouble when she come home, because
it was, you know, after the time she was supposed
to be there, and I was just thinking that, you know,
(01:55):
she stayed out late. I never ever, ever thought that
anything happened to her. So I was able to eventually
doze off to sleep. And the next morning when my
father came home and my mother said that Diane never
came home. So that morning they wind up calling the police.
They took a police report, and at one point my
(02:18):
mother was trying to remember what Diane had on, and
she had given them a description of her clothing, and
I remember Dabora, my sister, intervening and saying, no, she
had changed and she put on a gold shirt and
the blue jeans. Police took the report and they left
later that morning. I remember my sister and I. We
(02:41):
went to the corner of South Capitol and montin Luther
King Avenue. There's a bus stop just in that block,
in front of a bank of trees, and so we thought,
what if she got off the bus and got hurt.
We went in the woods seeing if we could find Diane.
We didn't find her, but when I got back to
(03:03):
the house, my parents had been notified that there had
been a young female found and they wanted to have
them go down to Baltimore to the Medical Examiner's office
so they can see if that was die In. So
while they were in Baltimore to identify the body that
(03:25):
they found, the Evening Star newspaper came out and we
were reading in the newspaper that there was a body found.
And when they gave the description of what the person
was wearing, it was a gold shirt and blue jeans,
and without seeing anything more, we just knew that that
(03:48):
was die In.
Speaker 3 (04:03):
The homicide detectives termed the cases the little girl cases.
Speaker 4 (04:07):
This child was laying on the side of the road.
I wouldn't go no way, I would call up my house.
Speaker 5 (04:14):
Those first five murders should have been a huge warning
bell for the police.
Speaker 3 (04:19):
We just want to know what happened. This person must
have saw that. They were thinking that maybe it's just
one person, and he says, oh, they need to know.
Speaker 6 (04:27):
This is me.
Speaker 4 (04:29):
I thought that they would catch him. I thought it
was just a matter of time.
Speaker 7 (04:34):
I'm Celeste Hedley and this is Freeway Phantom.
Speaker 2 (04:42):
My family had just moved to Washington, d C. From
al Passo, Texas in nineteen sixty nine, so we were
movies in DC.
Speaker 7 (04:56):
This is Patricia Williams, sister of Diane Williams, who would
be the sixth confirmed victim of the Freeway Fantom.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
Having to uproute and move to Washington, d C. I
was still trying to get acclimated to living in the
city and living in an area where it wasn't to
me as safe as it was when we were living
in Outpass of Texas. But by the time nineteen seventy
two came along, we were pretty much Washingtonians.
Speaker 6 (05:27):
You know.
Speaker 2 (05:27):
We went to school, we all worked at the recreation
centers during the summertime. We had friends and we would
go to back then they had house parties. That's what
reminds me of seventy one. In seventy two, earth wind
and fire going to the outdoor concerts that they would
have during the summertime for kids. And intertwined in that
(05:51):
era was you know, the Freeway Phantom, because while we
were young and still having fun, I knew, We knew,
Diane knew that there was a serial killer in Washington,
d C. By the time nineteen seventy two came around,
we were all aware that some girls had been murdered
(06:14):
and it was attributed to the Freeway Phantom.
Speaker 7 (06:18):
By this point, the Freeway fandom had killed five young
black girls across the DC area, but there had been
no activity since November of the previous year. Still, Patricia
says that those murders hung eerily over her family.
Speaker 2 (06:32):
So the feeling was almost atypical because I believe it
took three, possibly even four girls to be murdered before
they got any kind of recognition that Houston we have
a problem. The community was upset about that and that
maybe they had been made aware sooner that there's a
(06:55):
potential killer out there of young girls to watch your
orders quickly, maybe we would have had less tragedy. But
it took them too long to bring the public or
make the public aware that there was a killer out there.
And so a lot of people in the community were
upset about it.
Speaker 7 (07:18):
But Patricia says that the best her family could do
was to keep living their lives.
Speaker 2 (07:24):
As far as myself and even you know, like my
sisters and stuff, we were aware of it. If it
doesn't happen right in your negative woods, you may be
aware of it, but it doesn't affect you. So we
weren't so frightened that we stayed inside and behind locked doors.
We weren't cautious, you know, there's never believing that anything
(07:49):
like that could happen to us.
Speaker 7 (07:51):
Patricia had a large family, but she says she was
closest with her sister Diane.
Speaker 2 (07:57):
There were six of us, six siblings. Diane was the oldest,
she was seventeen. Of course, being the oldest, we looked
up to her. We would always go to church, and
she actually said she was going to get baptized, and
we followed her and we were all baptized following Diane's lead.
(08:19):
Diane and I were very close. We actually shared the
same bedroom, so we were always close. But at seventeen
years old, Diane was starting to date, and so even
though we were close, we weren't as close as we
used to be because I'm a younger sister. Some oldest sisters,
(08:41):
you know, they don't want to be around that not
they don't want to be around. But I was younger,
and what do I know?
Speaker 7 (08:48):
But then on September fifth, nineteen seventy two, seventeen year
old Diane Williams went missing. It had been ten months
since the Freeway fandom had killed his fifth victim, Brenda Woodard,
but now it seemed as though he had returned.
Speaker 8 (09:04):
She had visited her boyfriend, which was a pretty normal
thing for her to do, and was told to be
home by tenth the night before.
Speaker 7 (09:13):
This is writer Victoria Hester, who co wrote a book
on the Freeway Phantom with her father Blaine Pardo.
Speaker 8 (09:20):
Her boyfriend escorted her to the bus stop, so we
know that she got at least to the bus. The
bus driver did confirm that she got off at a
bus stop, which was at nineteenth Street in Benning Road.
It really didn't make any sense how she ended up
where she ended up. We have no idea how she
got where she was based on where she was dropped off,
(09:43):
whether she got a ride from someone else, or whether
she walked a different way home. It was just odd,
especially that late at night.
Speaker 9 (09:51):
Yeah, it wasn't the bus stop that you would get
off at to go home. It was earlier, and it
made no sense.
Speaker 7 (10:00):
This is Blaine Pardo.
Speaker 9 (10:03):
The bus driver was fairly certain of where she got off,
and then she got off alone. But it doesn't make
sense that she would get off the bus there. There's
a reason she got off, and we'll never know what
that was. But the killer wasn't with her then, So
it's confusing. But it also tells me that he wasn't
(10:23):
stalking these girls. If you think about it, so many
of them are caught going to a grocery store running
an errand it's not like something that's a routine where
he's following them for several days and knows their pattern
and how to intercept them. These are all victims of opportunity.
Speaker 8 (10:42):
Her body was found the very next day. She was
reported missing by her father when he came home at
eight am that morning. Her father actually ended up driving
by her body on his way home from work. He
was a corrections officer at Lorton Prison. I didn't realize
that he had driven right past his own daughter's body.
(11:03):
He didn't know at that point that she was even missing.
Since he worked the night shift. He was just going
straight home and that's when he realized she wasn't there.
Speaker 7 (11:15):
At about seven am that day, the body had been
found by a trucker who had pulled off the highway.
It was alongside it two ninety five, just south of
the Maryland d C Line. Diane's parents went to Baltimore
to identify her body, and while they were gone, Patricia
and her siblings saw the news of their sister's death
in the evening Star newspaper.
Speaker 2 (11:36):
I remember all of us screaming and crying and just
really breaking down because we found out that, you know,
our sister had been murdered. I remember the next door
neighbors they later had said that they heard all this
commotion going on next door. They didn't know what was
(11:57):
going on, but obviously we were upset enough that we
calls concern with the neighbors because of our reaction to
reading that. So when our parents did come home, they
of course told us that yes, that in fact was
Diane that was murdered. At that time, our parents didn't
(12:19):
share a lot of information with us, so I didn't
know a lot. But at that time, because Diane's body
was found along a freeway they had almost immediately linked
to the freeway phantom. I don't even know if they
had evidence other than her body being found on the
(12:41):
freeway to say that she was in fact a victim,
but the media had pretty much linked her to that
as being a victim.
Speaker 7 (12:53):
But there was evidence linking Diane to the previous murders.
The bus stop where she was last seen was just
down the street from the location of Carol Spink's and
Darlinia Johnson's abduction sites, and she was found just off
the I two ninety five freeway, about two miles from
where she lived. According to the police report, Diane was
wearing the clothes that she went missing in. Like previous victims,
(13:16):
her shoes were removed, but this time they were carefully
placed next to her body. The name Diane was also
written in one of her white sneakers, and police found
a dollar and twenty six cents in the pocket of
her genes. According to the autopsy report, the official cause
of death was strangulation. There was no sign of sexual assault,
(13:37):
but semen was found on her clothing. Police believed this
was because Diana had had sex with her boyfriend the
night before, but the boyfriend told authorities they didn't have
sex that evening. Despite this, police chose to not have
the semen officially tested.
Speaker 8 (13:54):
The interesting thing about Diane is that her shoes were
not missing from her body, unlike the other victims where
one shoe was missing or bow shoes, but her shoelaces
were missing, which is interesting because that's deliberate.
Speaker 7 (14:10):
Here's Victoria Hester again.
Speaker 8 (14:13):
You don't just run out of your shoelaces or they
just disappear. You deliberately have to take the shoelaces out.
So was that done to tie her up at some
point and he forgot about it, or was this done
as a souvenir to take home and remember it by
It kind of seems like little things like shoes or
(14:34):
books are missing from each of the girls, and it
does kind of seem like a souvenir type deal for
the killer, which is another creepy factor that there's a
box sitting in someone's basement somewhere that they may not
know why these random things are there. And the other
thing about her was that she had money in her
pocket of her genes, so we know that the motivation
(14:54):
here was definitely not money in it was to kill her.
Her cause of death was strangulation as well, and she
did have bruises on a ribcage, a scrape on her elbow,
and fingernail marks on her neck.
Speaker 7 (15:11):
The police report suggests that this evidence was submitted to
the FBI. However, the FBI had just been handed another
significant case.
Speaker 10 (15:21):
Richard Nixon's future as the President of the United States
has now apparently moved beyond his control on Capitol Hill.
The House Judiciary Committee has started a formal inquiry into
whether it should approve the impeachment of the president. The
Senate Judiciary Committee is hearing proposals that would shift control
of the Watergate investigation from the White House to a
(15:41):
court appointed prosecutor who could investigate the president himself.
Speaker 7 (15:45):
In June of that year, the Watergate scandal broke, and
this diverted the FBI's attention and manpower away from the
Freeway phantom case, which meant that the investigation, while technically ongoing,
was relegated to not obscurity, just the shadows. The case
was not forgotten, but it was also not top of
(16:07):
mind for law enforcement, and that's putting it lightly.
Speaker 2 (16:12):
There were things that happened where the Freeway Phantom and
also other murdered victims, their cases were not a priority
over something else that may have been going on in Washington, DC.
Everybody knows that the code of the case gets the
less chance of your actually closing the case.
Speaker 7 (16:54):
The fallout from Diane Williams murder was even more chaotic
than the previous five murders. Community member Wilma Harper wrote
about this in her book The Mystery of the Freeway Phantom.
In fact, she had some relation to Diane Williams.
Speaker 11 (17:08):
As she writes, on September sixth, nineteen seventy two, my
brother Leon Williams had promised to come to my house
and help plant tulip bulbs. At five o'clock PM, the
telephone rang. It was Leon. He said, the girl that
was reported missing is my Diane and she is dead.
(17:28):
My reply, I'll come over immediately.
Speaker 7 (17:32):
Wilma says. The media frenzy around Diane's death was also
bigger than it had been for previous victims.
Speaker 11 (17:39):
Circumstances surrounding Diane's death were similar to those present in
the other murders committed, giving much rise to much publicity
and media headlines blaring. After ten months freeway phantom strikes again.
Within a period of eighteen months, six black girls had
been killed and their bodies placed on the freeways around Washington,
(18:01):
d C. None of the murder cases had been solved.
Who is this mysterious person? Is there a freeway phantom?
Speaker 7 (18:11):
As a result of this frenzy, the Williams family was
bombarded with strange calls and visitors.
Speaker 11 (18:18):
The family also had to deal with the lunatic fringe.
Some people with sadistic tendencies presented extreme anguish to the
family by telephone. Calls came in around the clock, increasing
their anxiety during the day and disturbing their sleep at night.
They received four particularly sadistic calls, obviously from the same
(18:39):
person at two o'clock am, who said in a sinister voice,
I killed your daughter. Others asked for Diane by name.
Some of the messages were obscene.
Speaker 7 (18:51):
Lastly, wilmah Harper writes that while Diane's body was being
prepared for the funeral, the family became aware of evidence
that had been ignored by the mayor lnd Coroner's office.
Speaker 11 (19:02):
There seems to have been no end to the horrors
that confronted the family during that time. When the funeral
arrangements were being made. When Diane's body was taken in
Mason's funeral parlor, the mortician found certain evidence that she
thought was worthy of police scrutiny. She insisted that a
pathology test be made that night before evidence was destroyed
by embalming fluids. Seamen and hair of a certain color
(19:25):
and texture were found in the mouth of the deceased.
The autopsy conducted the coroner in Maryland had not revealed
these facts, had there been gross negligence on the part
of the persons in the coroner's office. Was forensic medicine
the most fascinating field of police work neglected. How did
the hare get inside of the mouth of the corpse?
(19:47):
Was this a clue planted or left by the Freeway phantom.
Speaker 7 (19:52):
We don't know the answer to these questions, but we
do know that Diane Williams was the last confirmed victim
of the Freeway fan. With no new murders and federal
authorities occupied with Watergate, it seemed like the investigation had
hit a wall. However, a small team of investigators continued
on the case for the next few years, including now
(20:14):
retired FBI special Agent Barry culvert, who says that those
years after the murders stopped were particularly difficult.
Speaker 12 (20:23):
The main thing you were hoping, sometime at one of
these crime scenes that the assailant would drop something, he
would lose something that was his, and you didn't do it.
We just didn't have it. We couldn't find anything like that,
even a confession with no backup evidence. They could come
to court and retract their statement, and you're really kind
(20:44):
of at a loss. We just didn't have that many
witnesses that saw a victim with somebody and then they
never saw him again.
Speaker 7 (20:55):
Barry says that the best they could do was to
start building a profile of their suspect. The first thing
most people agreed on, Barry tells us, is that the
killer was likely someone from the neighborhood.
Speaker 12 (21:06):
I think these girls, if they got in a car
and went with somebody, I think they would have seen them.
They would have recognized them. May not know them by name,
but they've seen them where they hang out, where they go,
and if he said we out tonight and let me
give you a ride, they might get in the car
with him. As far as getting in a car with
(21:28):
a stranger, something tells me that that may not have happened.
We were looking for someone that there would be some familiarity.
It's somebody that they've seen from Oxen Hill Athletic Club.
It could be a coach, it could be a basketball coach.
It could be somebody that, oh, I know him, we
(21:49):
see him at rec center, or we see him when
we go up here to school at night.
Speaker 7 (21:56):
This was a sentiment shared by a former NPD detective
from Jenkins. The lead investigator on.
Speaker 3 (22:02):
This case, whoever did the cases, fit right into the community,
never raised any suspicion at all, and that's how he
was able to do what he did. Nobody would would
question if they saw him talking to a little girl
or anything. They wouldn't question it.
Speaker 7 (22:22):
Because of this and other evidence, many felt that the
killer had to be a black male, most likely in
his thirties.
Speaker 3 (22:30):
I concluded from looking at the reports from the FBI,
negroid head hairs unlike the victims, were found on the victims.
When you look at the crime scenes, there were no
black detectives on the scenes close enough that their head
could have dropped on these victims. So where did the
black head hair which was not the victims?
Speaker 7 (22:52):
You know?
Speaker 3 (22:52):
So that is what I was basing it on, you know.
Speaker 7 (22:56):
And they had to have fit into the community without.
Speaker 3 (23:00):
Right, and it wasn't unusual for white males to be
in the neighborhood. And you know who was a white
male who came to the neighborhood almost every week, the
assurance man. Everybody had a grandmother had a nickel pile, see,
and he come there every week and collect his money,
and nobody never robbed him or anything every week, so
nobody said anything about him.
Speaker 7 (23:22):
In your opinion, it wouldn't be a white person.
Speaker 3 (23:26):
Forensically, I would say that's correct. It was not a Caucasian.
It wasn't a white person.
Speaker 13 (23:32):
No.
Speaker 7 (23:34):
Romayne concedes that some of the official suspects were white,
but she never believed it.
Speaker 3 (23:40):
They had some white guys who were over in the
forty nine hundred block of Benning Road Southeast, picking up
black females off the street and stuff like that. But
if you go by the forensic evidence, and that's that's
the problem, if it doesn't match, you know, if it's
negro headhairs, why would nigro head has be on the
(24:01):
victim's underclothes if some black male hadn't been close to her,
you see what I'm saying. So, and I think Brenda
Wood it is the only one where substantial Caucasian has
were found, but they weren't able to do anything with
them because I think in one case, some of the
has were dyed red. You know how many white males
(24:22):
you know dye they hair red. You know, So we
don't know whether it's cross contamination or not. We don't know.
Speaker 7 (24:29):
However, someone else who reviewed the case had a different
perspective on the suspect. Former PG County homicide Detective Hillary
Zukolowski believes it may not have been someone from within
the community.
Speaker 4 (24:42):
Well, you know, typically you'll have a conversation with the
people you work with, and you know, everybody has their
own series, as I did, and I kind of agree
with everybody else. We thought perhaps that it may have
been somebody that was transient. That area is highly transient.
People are coming though and out of the time. Thought
(25:05):
perhaps it could have been somebody there temporarily working for
the government or even perhaps a military person because they're
always coming and going to that area. And we thought
it's a good possibility that somebody was there for a
period of time. And since they stopped so abruptly we
thought that was a possibility that somebody may have been
(25:25):
transferred out of that area. I mean, it was off speculation.
Nobody really knew anything at the time. It was just
nothing but guesswork.
Speaker 7 (25:35):
To some degree, the transient idea makes a lot of sense.
It was very common for serial killers in the seventies
to travel, leaving behind bodies in various places. Some examples
include Samuel Little and the Golden State Killer. And even
though she still believes it was a blackmail from the community,
Romayne Jenkins admits that the FBI did investigate similar cases
(25:58):
across the country, looking anywhere for a connection.
Speaker 3 (26:02):
So if you look at all the submissions, I mean
they traveled to Connecticut because Connecticut had some cases similar,
not the exact, but similar. They went to Connecticut, they
went to upstate New York, they went to New Jersey,
they went everywhere that there was a series of pattern
cases where females were raped and strangled and thrown on
(26:26):
the highway. And some of these cases were solved. They
even interviewed the suspect in those cases, so lots of
work was done.
Speaker 7 (26:34):
It was but then how to explain the fact that
the freeway phantom stopped killing. Romayne has an idea about
that as well.
Speaker 3 (26:43):
I think he was upset. He felt he had vindicated himself,
he had gotten authorities or whoever to see that he
meant business. It was no need. How often do you
find serial killers who killed women for years and they
get married, they become what is it? One guy? Was
(27:04):
it a bek btk? Yeah? You know these people return
to society and act like they hadn't done a thing.
Speaker 7 (27:11):
When trying to determine the characteristics of your suspect, what
you're doing is creating what's usually called a psychological profile,
but there's another type of profile to consider, the geographic profile.
Speaker 5 (27:26):
It's a technique used in criminal investigations to help detect
this focus on the offender. Even though these are often
stranger crimes, like a serial murder or a serial rape,
it's typical to generate a lot of suspects, like literally hundreds,
if not thousands, or tens of thousands of suspects, So
(27:48):
finding who you're looking for is like trying to find
a needle in a haystack. Geographic profiling provides a way
to prioritize suspects hundreds or thousands. It gives you a
place to start looking for the needle in that haystack.
Speaker 7 (28:03):
This is doctor Kim Rossmo, a professor of criminology at
Texas State University. He worked with law enforcement to help
develop the geographic profile.
Speaker 5 (28:13):
What we do with geographic profiling is we take the
locations of a connected series of crime. So by a
connected series of crimes, I mean crimes that it's clear
the same offender has committed them. The role of geographic
profiling is to analyze the locations. It gives us a
map of where to start our search. Doesn't give you
(28:34):
an X that marks the spot if you're looking for
a place to start. Geography is a very powerful tool.
Speaker 7 (28:41):
One of the people who worked closely with doctor Rossmo
was Jim Treinham, a retired detective from the Metropolitan Police Department.
Years after the murder stopped, they tried using the geographic profile.
Speaker 13 (28:53):
I had worked a lot with doctor Kim Rossmo. He's
about the most brilliant of police officers that I know.
But he developed this process called geographic profiling where you
actually look at the different crime scenes. The more crime
scenes you have, the more that you can work with
(29:14):
his program and what he does is he's able to
feed all of these, like the abduction site, the body
recovery site, you know, things like that into the program.
Speaker 14 (29:26):
You come up with what he calls anchor points, and.
Speaker 6 (29:29):
These are areas not like a specific point, but like
an area of the city that the suspect has some
sort of significant connection to either his employer, his residents,
things like that.
Speaker 7 (29:45):
The process essentially narrows down a location where the killer
likely resides based on a map of the murders. It's
much more complicated than that, but it was very impressive
to writers Victoria Hester and Blame Pardo.
Speaker 9 (29:59):
One of the things Jim Train of Dead when he
did this was he did what's called geographic profiling, and
they look at where the victims lived, where were they
picked up, where they have the encounter with the killer,
where were the bodies dumped. He looks at traffic patterns
at the time and roads and everything else. They narrowed
(30:19):
it down that the killer had some sort of a
connection to Seint Elizabeth's Hospital, whereas we call it the
DC area CTS.
Speaker 8 (30:30):
I guess right now they're in the middle of demolishing
it slash changing it into like townhouses. Very creepy mental hospital,
and it's got very psych vibes to it, like it's
a very old multiple buildings kind of. It's very condemned looking.
Speaker 9 (30:50):
You know, if you were going to film a horror movie,
this would be a place to film a horror movie.
Speaker 3 (30:55):
It just the.
Speaker 9 (30:56):
Windows have bars, and the bars are rusting. Even in
broad daylight. It is a creepy place to be and
you're standing here and you realize, Okay, the killer had
some sort of connection to this. The first two victims
were found on the other side of the fence from
Saint Elizabeths on the highway. I mean it's literally within
(31:18):
forty feet of the fence of Saint Elizabeths. So this guy,
he had some sort of a connection to it. Now,
it could be that he worked there, could be it
was patient there. He had something that tied him to that.
It's an anchor point, they call it. You don't know
what that is because we don't know who the killer was,
(31:39):
but there's definitely at least one suspect that has a
Saint Elizabeth's connection and some creepy coincidences that tie in
to a lot of this.
Speaker 7 (32:11):
The geographic profile done by doctor Kim Rossmo triangulated areas
of interest in DC based on certain types of evidence
and the locations of various murder sites, and as he
tells us, the profile seemed to work.
Speaker 5 (32:26):
It was interesting because there's one specific location that showed
up very high in the profile that we all thought
was interesting. Maybe had nothing to do with it, you know,
maybe just a coincidence, but it was certainly something that
would be worth following up on in some sort of
later efforts. And that particular location was State Elizabeth Hospital.
(32:48):
I believe it was the oldest mental health hospital in
the United States. I think it goes back to the
Civil War, and it was located at twenty seven hundred
Martin Luther King Avenue, East Washington, and it was ranked
very highly. Now, given that the offender's behavior in these
crimes was somewhat bizarre, not what we would consider good
(33:12):
behavior or healthy behavior, you have to think at least
about maybe he had served time there and knew that location.
Other possibilities maybe he worked there, maybe he visited somebody there.
So you don't know. But the idea is, if you
had a list of suspects, you could see anyone with
(33:32):
a connection to the hospital would be worth exploring and
then seeing if DNA or fingerprints or something else matched.
Speaker 7 (33:41):
Years later, in nineteen seventy seven, investigators did make a match.
They were able to identify one suspect with ties to
the hospital, and his name was Robert Askins.
Speaker 9 (33:54):
Haskins had ties to Saint Elizabeth. He spent decades there
as patient.
Speaker 7 (34:01):
Here's writer Blaine Pardo again, Askins was.
Speaker 9 (34:05):
A creepy individual on so many levels. He tried to
kill several prostitutes by poisoning them and did kill one
of them. Was confined for years at that location and
then released later killed another woman was tried for that.
Spent more time at CDEs.
Speaker 7 (34:25):
As Blaine says, Askins was convicted for the nineteen thirty
eight murder of a sex worker named Ruth MacDonald. He
was admitted to Saint Elizabeth's Hospital sometime in the nineteen
fifties and then the following decade went to work there
as a computer technician.
Speaker 9 (34:41):
And then in the late nineteen seventies he attacked two women,
kidnapped them, posing as a police officer, took them back
to his place, held them hostage, sexually assaulted them, bathed them,
and in one case, the woman got away, and the
other one he drove her out and let her go,
which was kind of creepy asking if you think about
(35:04):
he's capturing women, bringing him to his place bathing them,
which is just a creepy little thing all on its own.
And in his apartment they found one of his legal
documents when police searched it in nineteen seventy eight, which
is a half decade after all of this. They did
find a court document with the word tantamount in it,
(35:25):
and he was said to have used that word often
at work. He was gifted person. He was an intellectual person,
but he had very little control emotionally. He literally spent
the rest of his life in jail, but he had
distinct ties to see.
Speaker 7 (35:43):
Elizabeths Askins is largely considered to be one of the
strongest suspects. He mostly fit the profile. He was a
black male who lived and worked in the region. He
was high school educated and employed at a key location.
And most of all, he also had a prior history
(36:04):
of violence and sexual abuse of women. When they searched
his home, police discovered a number of peculiar things. As
Blaine said, they found a court document where a judge
described Askin's behavior as quote tantamount. But they also found
soiled women's scarves and a knife used in a prior crime. However,
(36:25):
none of it was direct evidence that could implicate him
in the Freeway phantom murders.
Speaker 9 (36:30):
In this case, it happens to match up. That doesn't
mean he did it. They never found any physical evidence,
no source for the green rayon fibers that could tie
him back to that. I gotta tell you, at one point,
I was tempted to get some fentanyl and go to
his house and ask the owners there if I could
go on the basement and spray around to see if
(36:51):
there's traces of blood. But you know, there's no way
to introduce that conversation without sounding a bit crazy yourself.
And there's a part of me that wonders. You know,
he had a house that was fenced, It had a
garage he could pull in the back, it had a basement.
There's so many little things that it works for him.
(37:16):
But just because he matches the profile doesn't mean he
did it. It just means he happens to coincidentally match
the profile. If you watch any of the true crime
stuff on TV, you'll see all the time where they go,
this guy matches the profile and he's got an iron
clad alibi, you know, And it happens a lot. If
you look at the psychological profile. They said the killer
(37:39):
was probably in his thirties, Haskins was older. He was
in his forties at the time of the freeway Fanom killings.
Does that mean he didn't do it? Can you exclude it? No,
it just means he doesn't one hundred percent fit the profile,
but every other aspect he kind of does. So there's
(37:59):
a lot of objectivity that you have to kind of
step back and challenge yourself. Yeah, I'd love to tell
everybody I know for sure it's Robert Elwood Askins. I
know for a fact he did it, but we don't
have any physical evidence yet that can tie him to it.
I say yeah, because you know, DC has thrown out
a lout of their evidence, but there is some evidence
I still think in Maryland that could DNA wise be
(38:23):
tied to him or to the killer.
Speaker 8 (38:26):
Another interesting thing about Askins is his not only history
but known issues with women, which kind of stand out.
Speaker 7 (38:36):
Here's writer Victoria Hester.
Speaker 12 (38:37):
Again.
Speaker 8 (38:39):
He had a real issue with prostitutes, so much so
they started poisoning them, and he had an interesting relationship
with his mother that kind of shaped his hatred for women,
but he would always seek them out, obviously with the
poisoning of the prostitutes and the abduction of the other women.
So he kind of fits the profile in this case too.
(39:04):
Just for his insensitivity to people, especially women, it's just creepy.
Speaker 9 (39:10):
The one thing it always stood out with me is
his mother remarried and he was living with his mother
and he wouldn't allow his stepfather to move in to
the house.
Speaker 8 (39:18):
But she let him have that kind of control.
Speaker 9 (39:20):
She let him have that degree of control, And I'm like,
how abnormal is that because people get married all the
time and remarry. If you imagine somebody going, well, no,
you can't have him move in to the point where
you'd go, okay, I'm not going to do it. Yeah,
until he was locked up and then she did. There's
(39:42):
parts of this that to me, it almost screams Askins.
But until somebody can find that physical connection, I'm struggling.
Speaker 7 (39:51):
Retired MPD detective ROMAINN. Jingins had a lot to say
about Robert Askins as a suspect.
Speaker 3 (39:58):
No, I didn't like Robin Askins, and I felt Robert
Askins was too old. I don't think that these young
girls would even have gone up to him. What would
be the conversation that he had, Maybe if he had
a gun, he said, get in the car. But then
you go back to Crockett. The first time she sounds
(40:20):
like she's upset, and.
Speaker 7 (40:21):
You're talking about the first phone call she made.
Speaker 3 (40:23):
He had the first phone call she made, the second one,
she doesn't seem to be upset. And if Askins had
grabbed her and she didn't know them, how would the
suspect know if her mother had seen them or not?
If he didn't recognize her mother because he knew him. See,
he knew these.
Speaker 7 (40:42):
Victims because she asked on the phone, do you know
if my mother saw me?
Speaker 3 (40:46):
Yes? Yes, yes, yes, And he allowed them to make contact.
Missus McNeil. Darlena Johnson's mother said that she got a
strange phone call, I killed your daughter, Brenda Woodard. Her
body is left on the grounds out there where her
mama worked at the hospital. So was it just his.
Speaker 7 (41:07):
Age that made you think it wasn't Robert Askins?
Speaker 3 (41:10):
Yes, it was his age. And I know in reading
the FBI evidence reports, his hairs did not match the
negroid head hairs. None of the fiber evidence that was
removed in a search warrant at his house matched. They
could not find any type of green synthetic fibers that
(41:31):
matched these. But he did know about the word tantamount
because it was used quite often in describing him.
Speaker 7 (41:39):
And in his court proceedings.
Speaker 3 (41:40):
Yeah, judges, and generally that's where it comes from. You know,
if you look at the note, there's a saying now
that if somebody tells you who they are the first time,
you best believe it. That person told us who he was.
Somebody else called him insensitive. You don't call yourself insensitive, Okay,
somebody else in some document made him the insensitive person.
Speaker 7 (42:07):
Detective Jim Trainham agreed with the Romaine Jenkins. He believes
investigators were blinded by the word tantamount when.
Speaker 14 (42:15):
You started looking at some of the suspect biology. You
see that coming up. Oh, he uses the word tanamou
in this document or that document.
Speaker 13 (42:22):
In reading the search warrants and the investigation into him,
it was like the detective was really obsessed with him,
and he was really trying to push a square peg
into a round hole in my opinion. I mean, some
of the leaps that he was making to try to
connect Askins to these girls was pretty kind of eye rolling.
(42:46):
Askins is now dead. He's never admitted to anything. When
some detectives did go down to question him, he was
extremely paranoid.
Speaker 14 (42:56):
But then again, I think I would be due if
I'm in prison, somebody's trying to put the murder of
five girls on me. I don't think that's abnormal behavior,
though they thought it was.
Speaker 7 (43:08):
Askins was given a life sentence for the kidnapping and
sexual assault of two women. He died on April thirtieth,
twenty ten, at the age of ninety one. One of
the detectives communicated with Askins until his death, and he
continued to deny any involvement in the murders. Whether or
(43:30):
not Askins was the killer, the fact remains that Saint
Elizabeth's Hospital is a significant location in this case. I
visited the grounds last year with my producers Jamie and Trevor,
so we're standing here at the place where Saint Elizabeth's
Hospital stood in nineteen seventy one. This was the place
where one of the prime suspects, Robert Askins, was treated
(43:53):
for years, held actually, and because of its proximity to
so many important locations in the freeway phantom cases. That's
one of the reasons why people felt Robert Askins was
a good suspect because the geographic profile landed on this
location where we're standing as sort of the hub of
(44:15):
this killer's life, is that this would be an incredibly
important location for him, and Askins was held here for years.
And again, it's close. It's close to everything. I mean,
we haven't gone far from that neighborhood where Carol Spinks
lived and where Darlinia lived. It's close. It's all in
(44:40):
the same I mean, for me, it's walkable. The hunt
for suspects throughout the seventies was mostly unsuccessful, but in
a strange turn of events, investigators briefly determined that it
wasn't one person who was responsible, but an entire gang.
(45:01):
Here's Jim training again.
Speaker 14 (45:03):
One of the things that happened right about this time
period was there was a series of rapes of adult women,
of kidnappings and rapes of adult women that were done
by this group of men called the Green Vega Rapist
and they were basically, I guess the best way to
describe them is like a rape club.
Speaker 15 (45:20):
I mean some of them would go out some knights,
others would go out other knights, and they would drive
a green vega around and they would kidnap women off
the street, look at bus stops and things like that,
take them to someplace, rape them, sodomize them, and then
let them go.
Speaker 14 (45:35):
Some of the rapes were pretty brutal, and when they
finally got captured, one of them started making noise and saying, well,
I know who the Freeway Phantom is.
Speaker 7 (45:53):
Next time on Freeway Phantom.
Speaker 12 (45:55):
It was a gang that were going around abducting young
women in raping them.
Speaker 9 (46:01):
The investigators for Freeway Fans said, well, maybe these guys
are the same guys, and they opened a multi jurisdictional
task for us that involved the FBI, the park police.
Speaker 7 (46:12):
I think it got covered up.
Speaker 3 (46:13):
As an adult, I see it differently than when I
was a kid.
Speaker 2 (46:16):
Plus as a kid, I didn't know a lot of
stuff that had happened.
Speaker 7 (46:20):
So why was she not included among the Freeway Phantom victims.
Speaker 3 (46:25):
I have no idea. I guess mainly because she was
only victim found in the water.
Speaker 9 (46:31):
And sometimes I get the feeling that police officers get
in their mind who they think did it, and in
their mind the cases are closed, even though nobody was
ever brought to.
Speaker 4 (46:40):
Tryal for it.
Speaker 1 (46:49):
Freeway Fantom is a production of iHeartRadio, Tenderfoot TV and
Black BARMETSVA. Our host is Selese Hilly. The show is
written by Trevor Young, Jamie Albright and Celess Hiley. Executive
producers on behalf of iHeartRadio include Matt Frederick and Alex Williams,
with supervising producer Trevor Young. Executive producers on behalf of
Tenderfoot TV include Donald Albright and Payne Lindsay, with producers
(47:13):
Jamie Albright and Tracy Kaplan. Executive producers on behalf of
Black bar Mitzvah include myself, Jay Ellis and Aaron Bergman,
with producer Sidney Fools. Lead researcher is Jamie Albright. Artwork
by Mister Soul two one six, original music by Makeup
and Vanity Set special thanks to a teammate, Uta Beck
(47:34):
Media and Marketing and the Nord Group. Tenderfoot TV and iHeartMedia,
as well as Black bar Mitzvah have increased the reward
for information leading to the arrest and conviction of the
person or persons responsible for their Freeway Fan of murders.
The previous reward of up to one hundred and fifty
thousand dollars offered by the Metropolitan Police Department has been matched.
(47:55):
A new total reward of up to three hundred thousand
dollars is now being offered. You you have any information
relating to these unsolved crimes, contact the Metropolitan Police Department
at area code two zero two seven two seven nine
zero ninety nine. For more information, please visit freeway dashfanom
dot com. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio and Tenderfoot TV,
(48:18):
visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen
to your favorite shows. Thanks for listening.
You're listening to the Freeway Fanom, a production of iHeartRadio,
Tenderfoot TV, and Black bar Mitzvah. The views and opinions
expressed in this podcast are solely those of the podcast
author or individuals participating in the podcast, and do not
represent those of iHeartMedia, Tenderfoot TV, Black bar Mitzvah, or
their employees. This podcast also contains subject matter that may
(00:24):
not be suitable for everyone. Listener discretion is advised.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
It began that evening. She had cooked dinner that afternoon
and had done her little chores and what have you,
and so she asked us she could go and visit
her boyfriend. She had a boyfriend at the time who
lived near the recreation center where she worked at. And so,
(00:52):
because you know, she had done all of that, my
parents allowed her to go and visit him, which meant
she had had to take one bus and go straight
up Martin Luther King to get to his house. And
so I remember Diane going there, and I remember my
parents telling her, you have to be back home by
(01:12):
ten o'clock. We used to have a strict rule that
when the street lights came on, we had to come inside.
It's now after ten o'clock. My father worked at Lorton
Reformatory in Norton, Virginia at the time, and he worked
the graveyard shift, so he had gone to work, but
(01:34):
my mom was home and she had noticed that, you know,
it's ten o'clock, eleven o'clock and twelve o'clock and Diane's
still not home. All I remember is, boy, is dying
going to get in trouble when she come home, because
it was, you know, after the time she was supposed
to be there, and I was just thinking that, you know,
(01:55):
she stayed out late. I never ever, ever thought that
anything happened to her. So I was able to eventually
doze off to sleep. And the next morning when my
father came home and my mother said that Diane never
came home. So that morning they wind up calling the police.
They took a police report, and at one point my
(02:18):
mother was trying to remember what Diane had on, and
she had given them a description of her clothing, and
I remember Dabora, my sister, intervening and saying, no, she
had changed and she put on a gold shirt and
the blue jeans. Police took the report and they left
later that morning. I remember my sister and I. We
(02:41):
went to the corner of South Capitol and montin Luther
King Avenue. There's a bus stop just in that block,
in front of a bank of trees, and so we thought,
what if she got off the bus and got hurt.
We went in the woods seeing if we could find Diane.
We didn't find her, but when I got back to
(03:03):
the house, my parents had been notified that there had
been a young female found and they wanted to have
them go down to Baltimore to the Medical Examiner's office
so they can see if that was die In. So
while they were in Baltimore to identify the body that
(03:25):
they found, the Evening Star newspaper came out and we
were reading in the newspaper that there was a body found.
And when they gave the description of what the person
was wearing, it was a gold shirt and blue jeans,
and without seeing anything more, we just knew that that
(03:48):
was die In.
Speaker 3 (04:03):
The homicide detectives termed the cases the little girl cases.
Speaker 4 (04:07):
This child was laying on the side of the road.
I wouldn't go no way, I would call up my house.
Speaker 5 (04:14):
Those first five murders should have been a huge warning
bell for the police.
Speaker 3 (04:19):
We just want to know what happened. This person must
have saw that. They were thinking that maybe it's just
one person, and he says, oh, they need to know.
Speaker 6 (04:27):
This is me.
Speaker 4 (04:29):
I thought that they would catch him. I thought it
was just a matter of time.
Speaker 7 (04:34):
I'm Celeste Hedley and this is Freeway Phantom.
Speaker 2 (04:42):
My family had just moved to Washington, d C. From
al Passo, Texas in nineteen sixty nine, so we were
movies in DC.
Speaker 7 (04:56):
This is Patricia Williams, sister of Diane Williams, who would
be the sixth confirmed victim of the Freeway Fantom.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
Having to uproute and move to Washington, d C. I
was still trying to get acclimated to living in the
city and living in an area where it wasn't to
me as safe as it was when we were living
in Outpass of Texas. But by the time nineteen seventy
two came along, we were pretty much Washingtonians.
Speaker 6 (05:27):
You know.
Speaker 2 (05:27):
We went to school, we all worked at the recreation
centers during the summertime. We had friends and we would
go to back then they had house parties. That's what
reminds me of seventy one. In seventy two, earth wind
and fire going to the outdoor concerts that they would
have during the summertime for kids. And intertwined in that
(05:51):
era was you know, the Freeway Phantom, because while we
were young and still having fun, I knew, We knew,
Diane knew that there was a serial killer in Washington,
d C. By the time nineteen seventy two came around,
we were all aware that some girls had been murdered
(06:14):
and it was attributed to the Freeway Phantom.
Speaker 7 (06:18):
By this point, the Freeway fandom had killed five young
black girls across the DC area, but there had been
no activity since November of the previous year. Still, Patricia
says that those murders hung eerily over her family.
Speaker 2 (06:32):
So the feeling was almost atypical because I believe it
took three, possibly even four girls to be murdered before
they got any kind of recognition that Houston we have
a problem. The community was upset about that and that
maybe they had been made aware sooner that there's a
(06:55):
potential killer out there of young girls to watch your
orders quickly, maybe we would have had less tragedy. But
it took them too long to bring the public or
make the public aware that there was a killer out there.
And so a lot of people in the community were
upset about it.
Speaker 7 (07:18):
But Patricia says that the best her family could do
was to keep living their lives.
Speaker 2 (07:24):
As far as myself and even you know, like my
sisters and stuff, we were aware of it. If it
doesn't happen right in your negative woods, you may be
aware of it, but it doesn't affect you. So we
weren't so frightened that we stayed inside and behind locked doors.
We weren't cautious, you know, there's never believing that anything
(07:49):
like that could happen to us.
Speaker 7 (07:51):
Patricia had a large family, but she says she was
closest with her sister Diane.
Speaker 2 (07:57):
There were six of us, six siblings. Diane was the oldest,
she was seventeen. Of course, being the oldest, we looked
up to her. We would always go to church, and
she actually said she was going to get baptized, and
we followed her and we were all baptized following Diane's lead.
(08:19):
Diane and I were very close. We actually shared the
same bedroom, so we were always close. But at seventeen
years old, Diane was starting to date, and so even
though we were close, we weren't as close as we
used to be because I'm a younger sister. Some oldest sisters,
(08:41):
you know, they don't want to be around that not
they don't want to be around. But I was younger,
and what do I know?
Speaker 7 (08:48):
But then on September fifth, nineteen seventy two, seventeen year
old Diane Williams went missing. It had been ten months
since the Freeway fandom had killed his fifth victim, Brenda Woodard,
but now it seemed as though he had returned.
Speaker 8 (09:04):
She had visited her boyfriend, which was a pretty normal
thing for her to do, and was told to be
home by tenth the night before.
Speaker 7 (09:13):
This is writer Victoria Hester, who co wrote a book
on the Freeway Phantom with her father Blaine Pardo.
Speaker 8 (09:20):
Her boyfriend escorted her to the bus stop, so we
know that she got at least to the bus. The
bus driver did confirm that she got off at a
bus stop, which was at nineteenth Street in Benning Road.
It really didn't make any sense how she ended up
where she ended up. We have no idea how she
got where she was based on where she was dropped off,
(09:43):
whether she got a ride from someone else, or whether
she walked a different way home. It was just odd,
especially that late at night.
Speaker 9 (09:51):
Yeah, it wasn't the bus stop that you would get
off at to go home. It was earlier, and it
made no sense.
Speaker 7 (10:00):
This is Blaine Pardo.
Speaker 9 (10:03):
The bus driver was fairly certain of where she got off,
and then she got off alone. But it doesn't make
sense that she would get off the bus there. There's
a reason she got off, and we'll never know what
that was. But the killer wasn't with her then, So
it's confusing. But it also tells me that he wasn't
(10:23):
stalking these girls. If you think about it, so many
of them are caught going to a grocery store running
an errand it's not like something that's a routine where
he's following them for several days and knows their pattern
and how to intercept them. These are all victims of opportunity.
Speaker 8 (10:42):
Her body was found the very next day. She was
reported missing by her father when he came home at
eight am that morning. Her father actually ended up driving
by her body on his way home from work. He
was a corrections officer at Lorton Prison. I didn't realize
that he had driven right past his own daughter's body.
(11:03):
He didn't know at that point that she was even missing.
Since he worked the night shift. He was just going
straight home and that's when he realized she wasn't there.
Speaker 7 (11:15):
At about seven am that day, the body had been
found by a trucker who had pulled off the highway.
It was alongside it two ninety five, just south of
the Maryland d C Line. Diane's parents went to Baltimore
to identify her body, and while they were gone, Patricia
and her siblings saw the news of their sister's death
in the evening Star newspaper.
Speaker 2 (11:36):
I remember all of us screaming and crying and just
really breaking down because we found out that, you know,
our sister had been murdered. I remember the next door
neighbors they later had said that they heard all this
commotion going on next door. They didn't know what was
(11:57):
going on, but obviously we were upset enough that we
calls concern with the neighbors because of our reaction to
reading that. So when our parents did come home, they
of course told us that yes, that in fact was
Diane that was murdered. At that time, our parents didn't
(12:19):
share a lot of information with us, so I didn't
know a lot. But at that time, because Diane's body
was found along a freeway they had almost immediately linked
to the freeway phantom. I don't even know if they
had evidence other than her body being found on the
(12:41):
freeway to say that she was in fact a victim,
but the media had pretty much linked her to that
as being a victim.
Speaker 7 (12:53):
But there was evidence linking Diane to the previous murders.
The bus stop where she was last seen was just
down the street from the location of Carol Spink's and
Darlinia Johnson's abduction sites, and she was found just off
the I two ninety five freeway, about two miles from
where she lived. According to the police report, Diane was
wearing the clothes that she went missing in. Like previous victims,
(13:16):
her shoes were removed, but this time they were carefully
placed next to her body. The name Diane was also
written in one of her white sneakers, and police found
a dollar and twenty six cents in the pocket of
her genes. According to the autopsy report, the official cause
of death was strangulation. There was no sign of sexual assault,
(13:37):
but semen was found on her clothing. Police believed this
was because Diana had had sex with her boyfriend the
night before, but the boyfriend told authorities they didn't have
sex that evening. Despite this, police chose to not have
the semen officially tested.
Speaker 8 (13:54):
The interesting thing about Diane is that her shoes were
not missing from her body, unlike the other victims where
one shoe was missing or bow shoes, but her shoelaces
were missing, which is interesting because that's deliberate.
Speaker 7 (14:10):
Here's Victoria Hester again.
Speaker 8 (14:13):
You don't just run out of your shoelaces or they
just disappear. You deliberately have to take the shoelaces out.
So was that done to tie her up at some
point and he forgot about it, or was this done
as a souvenir to take home and remember it by
It kind of seems like little things like shoes or
(14:34):
books are missing from each of the girls, and it
does kind of seem like a souvenir type deal for
the killer, which is another creepy factor that there's a
box sitting in someone's basement somewhere that they may not
know why these random things are there. And the other
thing about her was that she had money in her
pocket of her genes, so we know that the motivation
(14:54):
here was definitely not money in it was to kill her.
Her cause of death was strangulation as well, and she
did have bruises on a ribcage, a scrape on her elbow,
and fingernail marks on her neck.
Speaker 7 (15:11):
The police report suggests that this evidence was submitted to
the FBI. However, the FBI had just been handed another
significant case.
Speaker 10 (15:21):
Richard Nixon's future as the President of the United States
has now apparently moved beyond his control on Capitol Hill.
The House Judiciary Committee has started a formal inquiry into
whether it should approve the impeachment of the president. The
Senate Judiciary Committee is hearing proposals that would shift control
of the Watergate investigation from the White House to a
(15:41):
court appointed prosecutor who could investigate the president himself.
Speaker 7 (15:45):
In June of that year, the Watergate scandal broke, and
this diverted the FBI's attention and manpower away from the
Freeway phantom case, which meant that the investigation, while technically ongoing,
was relegated to not obscurity, just the shadows. The case
was not forgotten, but it was also not top of
(16:07):
mind for law enforcement, and that's putting it lightly.
Speaker 2 (16:12):
There were things that happened where the Freeway Phantom and
also other murdered victims, their cases were not a priority
over something else that may have been going on in Washington, DC.
Everybody knows that the code of the case gets the
less chance of your actually closing the case.
Speaker 7 (16:54):
The fallout from Diane Williams murder was even more chaotic
than the previous five murders. Community member Wilma Harper wrote
about this in her book The Mystery of the Freeway Phantom.
In fact, she had some relation to Diane Williams.
Speaker 11 (17:08):
As she writes, on September sixth, nineteen seventy two, my
brother Leon Williams had promised to come to my house
and help plant tulip bulbs. At five o'clock PM, the
telephone rang. It was Leon. He said, the girl that
was reported missing is my Diane and she is dead.
(17:28):
My reply, I'll come over immediately.
Speaker 7 (17:32):
Wilma says. The media frenzy around Diane's death was also
bigger than it had been for previous victims.
Speaker 11 (17:39):
Circumstances surrounding Diane's death were similar to those present in
the other murders committed, giving much rise to much publicity
and media headlines blaring. After ten months freeway phantom strikes again.
Within a period of eighteen months, six black girls had
been killed and their bodies placed on the freeways around Washington,
(18:01):
d C. None of the murder cases had been solved.
Who is this mysterious person? Is there a freeway phantom?
Speaker 7 (18:11):
As a result of this frenzy, the Williams family was
bombarded with strange calls and visitors.
Speaker 11 (18:18):
The family also had to deal with the lunatic fringe.
Some people with sadistic tendencies presented extreme anguish to the
family by telephone. Calls came in around the clock, increasing
their anxiety during the day and disturbing their sleep at night.
They received four particularly sadistic calls, obviously from the same
(18:39):
person at two o'clock am, who said in a sinister voice,
I killed your daughter. Others asked for Diane by name.
Some of the messages were obscene.
Speaker 7 (18:51):
Lastly, wilmah Harper writes that while Diane's body was being
prepared for the funeral, the family became aware of evidence
that had been ignored by the mayor lnd Coroner's office.
Speaker 11 (19:02):
There seems to have been no end to the horrors
that confronted the family during that time. When the funeral
arrangements were being made. When Diane's body was taken in
Mason's funeral parlor, the mortician found certain evidence that she
thought was worthy of police scrutiny. She insisted that a
pathology test be made that night before evidence was destroyed
by embalming fluids. Seamen and hair of a certain color
(19:25):
and texture were found in the mouth of the deceased.
The autopsy conducted the coroner in Maryland had not revealed
these facts, had there been gross negligence on the part
of the persons in the coroner's office. Was forensic medicine
the most fascinating field of police work neglected. How did
the hare get inside of the mouth of the corpse?
(19:47):
Was this a clue planted or left by the Freeway phantom.
Speaker 7 (19:52):
We don't know the answer to these questions, but we
do know that Diane Williams was the last confirmed victim
of the Freeway fan. With no new murders and federal
authorities occupied with Watergate, it seemed like the investigation had
hit a wall. However, a small team of investigators continued
on the case for the next few years, including now
(20:14):
retired FBI special Agent Barry culvert, who says that those
years after the murders stopped were particularly difficult.
Speaker 12 (20:23):
The main thing you were hoping, sometime at one of
these crime scenes that the assailant would drop something, he
would lose something that was his, and you didn't do it.
We just didn't have it. We couldn't find anything like that,
even a confession with no backup evidence. They could come
to court and retract their statement, and you're really kind
(20:44):
of at a loss. We just didn't have that many
witnesses that saw a victim with somebody and then they
never saw him again.
Speaker 7 (20:55):
Barry says that the best they could do was to
start building a profile of their suspect. The first thing
most people agreed on, Barry tells us, is that the
killer was likely someone from the neighborhood.
Speaker 12 (21:06):
I think these girls, if they got in a car
and went with somebody, I think they would have seen them.
They would have recognized them. May not know them by name,
but they've seen them where they hang out, where they go,
and if he said we out tonight and let me
give you a ride, they might get in the car
with him. As far as getting in a car with
(21:28):
a stranger, something tells me that that may not have happened.
We were looking for someone that there would be some familiarity.
It's somebody that they've seen from Oxen Hill Athletic Club.
It could be a coach, it could be a basketball coach.
It could be somebody that, oh, I know him, we
(21:49):
see him at rec center, or we see him when
we go up here to school at night.
Speaker 7 (21:56):
This was a sentiment shared by a former NPD detective
from Jenkins. The lead investigator on.
Speaker 3 (22:02):
This case, whoever did the cases, fit right into the community,
never raised any suspicion at all, and that's how he
was able to do what he did. Nobody would would
question if they saw him talking to a little girl
or anything. They wouldn't question it.
Speaker 7 (22:22):
Because of this and other evidence, many felt that the
killer had to be a black male, most likely in
his thirties.
Speaker 3 (22:30):
I concluded from looking at the reports from the FBI,
negroid head hairs unlike the victims, were found on the victims.
When you look at the crime scenes, there were no
black detectives on the scenes close enough that their head
could have dropped on these victims. So where did the
black head hair which was not the victims?
Speaker 7 (22:52):
You know?
Speaker 3 (22:52):
So that is what I was basing it on, you know.
Speaker 7 (22:56):
And they had to have fit into the community without.
Speaker 3 (23:00):
Right, and it wasn't unusual for white males to be
in the neighborhood. And you know who was a white
male who came to the neighborhood almost every week, the
assurance man. Everybody had a grandmother had a nickel pile, see,
and he come there every week and collect his money,
and nobody never robbed him or anything every week, so
nobody said anything about him.
Speaker 7 (23:22):
In your opinion, it wouldn't be a white person.
Speaker 3 (23:26):
Forensically, I would say that's correct. It was not a Caucasian.
It wasn't a white person.
Speaker 13 (23:32):
No.
Speaker 7 (23:34):
Romayne concedes that some of the official suspects were white,
but she never believed it.
Speaker 3 (23:40):
They had some white guys who were over in the
forty nine hundred block of Benning Road Southeast, picking up
black females off the street and stuff like that. But
if you go by the forensic evidence, and that's that's
the problem, if it doesn't match, you know, if it's
negro headhairs, why would nigro head has be on the
(24:01):
victim's underclothes if some black male hadn't been close to her,
you see what I'm saying. So, and I think Brenda
Wood it is the only one where substantial Caucasian has
were found, but they weren't able to do anything with
them because I think in one case, some of the
has were dyed red. You know how many white males
(24:22):
you know dye they hair red. You know, So we
don't know whether it's cross contamination or not. We don't know.
Speaker 7 (24:29):
However, someone else who reviewed the case had a different
perspective on the suspect. Former PG County homicide Detective Hillary
Zukolowski believes it may not have been someone from within
the community.
Speaker 4 (24:42):
Well, you know, typically you'll have a conversation with the
people you work with, and you know, everybody has their
own series, as I did, and I kind of agree
with everybody else. We thought perhaps that it may have
been somebody that was transient. That area is highly transient.
People are coming though and out of the time. Thought
(25:05):
perhaps it could have been somebody there temporarily working for
the government or even perhaps a military person because they're
always coming and going to that area. And we thought
it's a good possibility that somebody was there for a
period of time. And since they stopped so abruptly we
thought that was a possibility that somebody may have been
(25:25):
transferred out of that area. I mean, it was off speculation.
Nobody really knew anything at the time. It was just
nothing but guesswork.
Speaker 7 (25:35):
To some degree, the transient idea makes a lot of sense.
It was very common for serial killers in the seventies
to travel, leaving behind bodies in various places. Some examples
include Samuel Little and the Golden State Killer. And even
though she still believes it was a blackmail from the community,
Romayne Jenkins admits that the FBI did investigate similar cases
(25:58):
across the country, looking anywhere for a connection.
Speaker 3 (26:02):
So if you look at all the submissions, I mean
they traveled to Connecticut because Connecticut had some cases similar,
not the exact, but similar. They went to Connecticut, they
went to upstate New York, they went to New Jersey,
they went everywhere that there was a series of pattern
cases where females were raped and strangled and thrown on
(26:26):
the highway. And some of these cases were solved. They
even interviewed the suspect in those cases, so lots of
work was done.
Speaker 7 (26:34):
It was but then how to explain the fact that
the freeway phantom stopped killing. Romayne has an idea about
that as well.
Speaker 3 (26:43):
I think he was upset. He felt he had vindicated himself,
he had gotten authorities or whoever to see that he
meant business. It was no need. How often do you
find serial killers who killed women for years and they
get married, they become what is it? One guy? Was
(27:04):
it a bek btk? Yeah? You know these people return
to society and act like they hadn't done a thing.
Speaker 7 (27:11):
When trying to determine the characteristics of your suspect, what
you're doing is creating what's usually called a psychological profile,
but there's another type of profile to consider, the geographic profile.
Speaker 5 (27:26):
It's a technique used in criminal investigations to help detect
this focus on the offender. Even though these are often
stranger crimes, like a serial murder or a serial rape,
it's typical to generate a lot of suspects, like literally hundreds,
if not thousands, or tens of thousands of suspects, So
(27:48):
finding who you're looking for is like trying to find
a needle in a haystack. Geographic profiling provides a way
to prioritize suspects hundreds or thousands. It gives you a
place to start looking for the needle in that haystack.
Speaker 7 (28:03):
This is doctor Kim Rossmo, a professor of criminology at
Texas State University. He worked with law enforcement to help
develop the geographic profile.
Speaker 5 (28:13):
What we do with geographic profiling is we take the
locations of a connected series of crime. So by a
connected series of crimes, I mean crimes that it's clear
the same offender has committed them. The role of geographic
profiling is to analyze the locations. It gives us a
map of where to start our search. Doesn't give you
(28:34):
an X that marks the spot if you're looking for
a place to start. Geography is a very powerful tool.
Speaker 7 (28:41):
One of the people who worked closely with doctor Rossmo
was Jim Treinham, a retired detective from the Metropolitan Police Department.
Years after the murder stopped, they tried using the geographic profile.
Speaker 13 (28:53):
I had worked a lot with doctor Kim Rossmo. He's
about the most brilliant of police officers that I know.
But he developed this process called geographic profiling where you
actually look at the different crime scenes. The more crime
scenes you have, the more that you can work with
(29:14):
his program and what he does is he's able to
feed all of these, like the abduction site, the body
recovery site, you know, things like that into the program.
Speaker 14 (29:26):
You come up with what he calls anchor points, and.
Speaker 6 (29:29):
These are areas not like a specific point, but like
an area of the city that the suspect has some
sort of significant connection to either his employer, his residents,
things like that.
Speaker 7 (29:45):
The process essentially narrows down a location where the killer
likely resides based on a map of the murders. It's
much more complicated than that, but it was very impressive
to writers Victoria Hester and Blame Pardo.
Speaker 9 (29:59):
One of the things Jim Train of Dead when he
did this was he did what's called geographic profiling, and
they look at where the victims lived, where were they
picked up, where they have the encounter with the killer,
where were the bodies dumped. He looks at traffic patterns
at the time and roads and everything else. They narrowed
(30:19):
it down that the killer had some sort of a
connection to Seint Elizabeth's Hospital, whereas we call it the
DC area CTS.
Speaker 8 (30:30):
I guess right now they're in the middle of demolishing
it slash changing it into like townhouses. Very creepy mental hospital,
and it's got very psych vibes to it, like it's
a very old multiple buildings kind of. It's very condemned looking.
Speaker 9 (30:50):
You know, if you were going to film a horror movie,
this would be a place to film a horror movie.
Speaker 3 (30:55):
It just the.
Speaker 9 (30:56):
Windows have bars, and the bars are rusting. Even in
broad daylight. It is a creepy place to be and
you're standing here and you realize, Okay, the killer had
some sort of connection to this. The first two victims
were found on the other side of the fence from
Saint Elizabeths on the highway. I mean it's literally within
(31:18):
forty feet of the fence of Saint Elizabeths. So this guy,
he had some sort of a connection to it. Now,
it could be that he worked there, could be it
was patient there. He had something that tied him to that.
It's an anchor point, they call it. You don't know
what that is because we don't know who the killer was,
(31:39):
but there's definitely at least one suspect that has a
Saint Elizabeth's connection and some creepy coincidences that tie in
to a lot of this.
Speaker 7 (32:11):
The geographic profile done by doctor Kim Rossmo triangulated areas
of interest in DC based on certain types of evidence
and the locations of various murder sites, and as he
tells us, the profile seemed to work.
Speaker 5 (32:26):
It was interesting because there's one specific location that showed
up very high in the profile that we all thought
was interesting. Maybe had nothing to do with it, you know,
maybe just a coincidence, but it was certainly something that
would be worth following up on in some sort of
later efforts. And that particular location was State Elizabeth Hospital.
(32:48):
I believe it was the oldest mental health hospital in
the United States. I think it goes back to the
Civil War, and it was located at twenty seven hundred
Martin Luther King Avenue, East Washington, and it was ranked
very highly. Now, given that the offender's behavior in these
crimes was somewhat bizarre, not what we would consider good
(33:12):
behavior or healthy behavior, you have to think at least
about maybe he had served time there and knew that location.
Other possibilities maybe he worked there, maybe he visited somebody there.
So you don't know. But the idea is, if you
had a list of suspects, you could see anyone with
(33:32):
a connection to the hospital would be worth exploring and
then seeing if DNA or fingerprints or something else matched.
Speaker 7 (33:41):
Years later, in nineteen seventy seven, investigators did make a match.
They were able to identify one suspect with ties to
the hospital, and his name was Robert Askins.
Speaker 9 (33:54):
Haskins had ties to Saint Elizabeth. He spent decades there
as patient.
Speaker 7 (34:01):
Here's writer Blaine Pardo again, Askins was.
Speaker 9 (34:05):
A creepy individual on so many levels. He tried to
kill several prostitutes by poisoning them and did kill one
of them. Was confined for years at that location and
then released later killed another woman was tried for that.
Spent more time at CDEs.
Speaker 7 (34:25):
As Blaine says, Askins was convicted for the nineteen thirty
eight murder of a sex worker named Ruth MacDonald. He
was admitted to Saint Elizabeth's Hospital sometime in the nineteen
fifties and then the following decade went to work there
as a computer technician.
Speaker 9 (34:41):
And then in the late nineteen seventies he attacked two women,
kidnapped them, posing as a police officer, took them back
to his place, held them hostage, sexually assaulted them, bathed them,
and in one case, the woman got away, and the
other one he drove her out and let her go,
which was kind of creepy asking if you think about
(35:04):
he's capturing women, bringing him to his place bathing them,
which is just a creepy little thing all on its own.
And in his apartment they found one of his legal
documents when police searched it in nineteen seventy eight, which
is a half decade after all of this. They did
find a court document with the word tantamount in it,
(35:25):
and he was said to have used that word often
at work. He was gifted person. He was an intellectual person,
but he had very little control emotionally. He literally spent
the rest of his life in jail, but he had
distinct ties to see.
Speaker 7 (35:43):
Elizabeths Askins is largely considered to be one of the
strongest suspects. He mostly fit the profile. He was a
black male who lived and worked in the region. He
was high school educated and employed at a key location.
And most of all, he also had a prior history
(36:04):
of violence and sexual abuse of women. When they searched
his home, police discovered a number of peculiar things. As
Blaine said, they found a court document where a judge
described Askin's behavior as quote tantamount. But they also found
soiled women's scarves and a knife used in a prior crime. However,
(36:25):
none of it was direct evidence that could implicate him
in the Freeway phantom murders.
Speaker 9 (36:30):
In this case, it happens to match up. That doesn't
mean he did it. They never found any physical evidence,
no source for the green rayon fibers that could tie
him back to that. I gotta tell you, at one point,
I was tempted to get some fentanyl and go to
his house and ask the owners there if I could
go on the basement and spray around to see if
(36:51):
there's traces of blood. But you know, there's no way
to introduce that conversation without sounding a bit crazy yourself.
And there's a part of me that wonders. You know,
he had a house that was fenced, It had a
garage he could pull in the back, it had a basement.
There's so many little things that it works for him.
(37:16):
But just because he matches the profile doesn't mean he
did it. It just means he happens to coincidentally match
the profile. If you watch any of the true crime
stuff on TV, you'll see all the time where they go,
this guy matches the profile and he's got an iron
clad alibi, you know, And it happens a lot. If
you look at the psychological profile. They said the killer
(37:39):
was probably in his thirties, Haskins was older. He was
in his forties at the time of the freeway Fanom killings.
Does that mean he didn't do it? Can you exclude it? No,
it just means he doesn't one hundred percent fit the profile,
but every other aspect he kind of does. So there's
(37:59):
a lot of objectivity that you have to kind of
step back and challenge yourself. Yeah, I'd love to tell
everybody I know for sure it's Robert Elwood Askins. I
know for a fact he did it, but we don't
have any physical evidence yet that can tie him to it.
I say yeah, because you know, DC has thrown out
a lout of their evidence, but there is some evidence
I still think in Maryland that could DNA wise be
(38:23):
tied to him or to the killer.
Speaker 8 (38:26):
Another interesting thing about Askins is his not only history
but known issues with women, which kind of stand out.
Speaker 7 (38:36):
Here's writer Victoria Hester.
Speaker 12 (38:37):
Again.
Speaker 8 (38:39):
He had a real issue with prostitutes, so much so
they started poisoning them, and he had an interesting relationship
with his mother that kind of shaped his hatred for women,
but he would always seek them out, obviously with the
poisoning of the prostitutes and the abduction of the other women.
So he kind of fits the profile in this case too.
(39:04):
Just for his insensitivity to people, especially women, it's just creepy.
Speaker 9 (39:10):
The one thing it always stood out with me is
his mother remarried and he was living with his mother
and he wouldn't allow his stepfather to move in to
the house.
Speaker 8 (39:18):
But she let him have that kind of control.
Speaker 9 (39:20):
She let him have that degree of control, And I'm like,
how abnormal is that because people get married all the
time and remarry. If you imagine somebody going, well, no,
you can't have him move in to the point where
you'd go, okay, I'm not going to do it. Yeah,
until he was locked up and then she did. There's
(39:42):
parts of this that to me, it almost screams Askins.
But until somebody can find that physical connection, I'm struggling.
Speaker 7 (39:51):
Retired MPD detective ROMAINN. Jingins had a lot to say
about Robert Askins as a suspect.
Speaker 3 (39:58):
No, I didn't like Robin Askins, and I felt Robert
Askins was too old. I don't think that these young
girls would even have gone up to him. What would
be the conversation that he had, Maybe if he had
a gun, he said, get in the car. But then
you go back to Crockett. The first time she sounds
(40:20):
like she's upset, and.
Speaker 7 (40:21):
You're talking about the first phone call she made.
Speaker 3 (40:23):
He had the first phone call she made, the second one,
she doesn't seem to be upset. And if Askins had
grabbed her and she didn't know them, how would the
suspect know if her mother had seen them or not?
If he didn't recognize her mother because he knew him. See,
he knew these.
Speaker 7 (40:42):
Victims because she asked on the phone, do you know
if my mother saw me?
Speaker 3 (40:46):
Yes? Yes, yes, yes, And he allowed them to make contact.
Missus McNeil. Darlena Johnson's mother said that she got a
strange phone call, I killed your daughter, Brenda Woodard. Her
body is left on the grounds out there where her
mama worked at the hospital. So was it just his.
Speaker 7 (41:07):
Age that made you think it wasn't Robert Askins?
Speaker 3 (41:10):
Yes, it was his age. And I know in reading
the FBI evidence reports, his hairs did not match the
negroid head hairs. None of the fiber evidence that was
removed in a search warrant at his house matched. They
could not find any type of green synthetic fibers that
(41:31):
matched these. But he did know about the word tantamount
because it was used quite often in describing him.
Speaker 7 (41:39):
And in his court proceedings.
Speaker 3 (41:40):
Yeah, judges, and generally that's where it comes from. You know,
if you look at the note, there's a saying now
that if somebody tells you who they are the first time,
you best believe it. That person told us who he was.
Somebody else called him insensitive. You don't call yourself insensitive, Okay,
somebody else in some document made him the insensitive person.
Speaker 7 (42:07):
Detective Jim Trainham agreed with the Romaine Jenkins. He believes
investigators were blinded by the word tantamount when.
Speaker 14 (42:15):
You started looking at some of the suspect biology. You
see that coming up. Oh, he uses the word tanamou
in this document or that document.
Speaker 13 (42:22):
In reading the search warrants and the investigation into him,
it was like the detective was really obsessed with him,
and he was really trying to push a square peg
into a round hole in my opinion. I mean, some
of the leaps that he was making to try to
connect Askins to these girls was pretty kind of eye rolling.
(42:46):
Askins is now dead. He's never admitted to anything. When
some detectives did go down to question him, he was
extremely paranoid.
Speaker 14 (42:56):
But then again, I think I would be due if
I'm in prison, somebody's trying to put the murder of
five girls on me. I don't think that's abnormal behavior,
though they thought it was.
Speaker 7 (43:08):
Askins was given a life sentence for the kidnapping and
sexual assault of two women. He died on April thirtieth,
twenty ten, at the age of ninety one. One of
the detectives communicated with Askins until his death, and he
continued to deny any involvement in the murders. Whether or
(43:30):
not Askins was the killer, the fact remains that Saint
Elizabeth's Hospital is a significant location in this case. I
visited the grounds last year with my producers Jamie and Trevor,
so we're standing here at the place where Saint Elizabeth's
Hospital stood in nineteen seventy one. This was the place
where one of the prime suspects, Robert Askins, was treated
(43:53):
for years, held actually, and because of its proximity to
so many important locations in the freeway phantom cases. That's
one of the reasons why people felt Robert Askins was
a good suspect because the geographic profile landed on this
location where we're standing as sort of the hub of
(44:15):
this killer's life, is that this would be an incredibly
important location for him, and Askins was held here for years.
And again, it's close. It's close to everything. I mean,
we haven't gone far from that neighborhood where Carol Spinks
lived and where Darlinia lived. It's close. It's all in
(44:40):
the same I mean, for me, it's walkable. The hunt
for suspects throughout the seventies was mostly unsuccessful, but in
a strange turn of events, investigators briefly determined that it
wasn't one person who was responsible, but an entire gang.
(45:01):
Here's Jim training again.
Speaker 14 (45:03):
One of the things that happened right about this time
period was there was a series of rapes of adult women,
of kidnappings and rapes of adult women that were done
by this group of men called the Green Vega Rapist
and they were basically, I guess the best way to
describe them is like a rape club.
Speaker 15 (45:20):
I mean some of them would go out some knights,
others would go out other knights, and they would drive
a green vega around and they would kidnap women off
the street, look at bus stops and things like that,
take them to someplace, rape them, sodomize them, and then
let them go.
Speaker 14 (45:35):
Some of the rapes were pretty brutal, and when they
finally got captured, one of them started making noise and saying, well,
I know who the Freeway Phantom is.
Speaker 7 (45:53):
Next time on Freeway Phantom.
Speaker 12 (45:55):
It was a gang that were going around abducting young
women in raping them.
Speaker 9 (46:01):
The investigators for Freeway Fans said, well, maybe these guys
are the same guys, and they opened a multi jurisdictional
task for us that involved the FBI, the park police.
Speaker 7 (46:12):
I think it got covered up.
Speaker 3 (46:13):
As an adult, I see it differently than when I
was a kid.
Speaker 2 (46:16):
Plus as a kid, I didn't know a lot of
stuff that had happened.
Speaker 7 (46:20):
So why was she not included among the Freeway Phantom victims.
Speaker 3 (46:25):
I have no idea. I guess mainly because she was
only victim found in the water.
Speaker 9 (46:31):
And sometimes I get the feeling that police officers get
in their mind who they think did it, and in
their mind the cases are closed, even though nobody was
ever brought to.
Speaker 4 (46:40):
Tryal for it.
Speaker 1 (46:49):
Freeway Fantom is a production of iHeartRadio, Tenderfoot TV and
Black BARMETSVA. Our host is Selese Hilly. The show is
written by Trevor Young, Jamie Albright and Celess Hiley. Executive
producers on behalf of iHeartRadio include Matt Frederick and Alex Williams,
with supervising producer Trevor Young. Executive producers on behalf of
Tenderfoot TV include Donald Albright and Payne Lindsay, with producers
(47:13):
Jamie Albright and Tracy Kaplan. Executive producers on behalf of
Black bar Mitzvah include myself, Jay Ellis and Aaron Bergman,
with producer Sidney Fools. Lead researcher is Jamie Albright. Artwork
by Mister Soul two one six, original music by Makeup
and Vanity Set special thanks to a teammate, Uta Beck
(47:34):
Media and Marketing and the Nord Group. Tenderfoot TV and iHeartMedia,
as well as Black bar Mitzvah have increased the reward
for information leading to the arrest and conviction of the
person or persons responsible for their Freeway Fan of murders.
The previous reward of up to one hundred and fifty
thousand dollars offered by the Metropolitan Police Department has been matched.
(47:55):
A new total reward of up to three hundred thousand
dollars is now being offered. You you have any information
relating to these unsolved crimes, contact the Metropolitan Police Department
at area code two zero two seven two seven nine
zero ninety nine. For more information, please visit freeway dashfanom
dot com. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio and Tenderfoot TV,
(48:18):
visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen
to your favorite shows. Thanks for listening.
Host
Celeste Headlee
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