June 13, 2025 • 48 mins
Sorry, not sorry—we’re done falling for the societal pressure trap. We’re getting the bag and living that rich girl vibe. In this episode, Katie from Money with Katie joins us to break down the industries profiting off our insecurities, how to navigate negotiation as a woman, and how to give your budget a full-on Hot Girl Detox.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Getting Off the Hot Girl Hamster Wheel with Katie Gotty Tossin.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
Welcome to the Frugal Friends podcast, where you'll learn to
save money, embrace simplicity, and liver your life. Here your
hosts Jen and Jill.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
Welcome to Frugal Friends. My name is Jen, my name
is Jill, and today we are talking with Money with
Katie Katie Gotty Tossin about getting off the Hot Girl
Hamster Wheel.
Speaker 3 (00:33):
In this episode, you will learn about the industries that
profit from our insecurities, how to navigate negotiations as a female,
and how to do a hot girl detox with your budget.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
But first, this episode is brought to you by our
annual finance Planner. We released a budget a few months
ago and saw that it was going to be way
too big if we included all of the tabs we
wanted to include, so we made a separate finance planner
for your whole year. So planning out the activities you
(01:08):
want to do with your family, the activities you want
to do with self care, your travel, your travel rewards,
credit cards, all of their benefits, Just planning all of
the things for your finances in one spreadsheet with like
twenty different tabs, So if you want to check out
all the tabs that are available Frugal Friends, podcast, dot com,
slash Planner, and it could be really beneficial to you.
(01:32):
I know it has been for me, even maybe even
more than the budget because I use an app. But
some people love their spreadsheets.
Speaker 3 (01:41):
And this will be especially helpful for you after you
listen to our conversation with Katie.
Speaker 1 (01:45):
So for those of you who don't know Katie, she
is the voice of Money with Katie and she's the
author of Rich Girl Nation. Her work focuses on the
intersection where are economic, political, and cultural context meets the
practical money advice that everyone needs to thrive. And that's
a long winded way to say she has a really
(02:08):
cool podcast. I really like following her on social media,
and I really like listening to her long form podcast content.
And I don't listen to a lot of podcasts. I
know that my sound hypocritical, but I don't. But I
really do love hers, So I'm really excited to introduce
you to her. If you've never heard her before, you're
(02:31):
gonna love her.
Speaker 4 (02:31):
Here she is Katie.
Speaker 1 (02:36):
Welcome to Frugal Friends. We are so excited to have
you and talk about your book that I am very
excited to read.
Speaker 5 (02:46):
Oh, thank you. I'm really excited to be here. So
thanks for having me.
Speaker 3 (02:50):
We're fan girling. This is fun for us, fun for
our audience. And you've got some really great things that
you talk about in your book that's coming out. And
one of the things that stood out to me that
I'm curious to get your perspective on is a Hot
Girl Detox. This sounds really fun in the budget. Can
you tell us about it?
Speaker 5 (03:10):
Yes, So, the Hot Girl Detox is a conceptual offshoot
from the hot Girl hamster wheel, which is the phrase
that I came up with to describe just the absolute
litany of recurring expenses that are necessary to uphold what
I call the capital a capital f acceptable feminine experience
(03:31):
or appearance. So I call it a hamster wheel because
the nature of these purchases is such that many of
them are things you can't really just do once, Like
every single dollar that you spend is a commitment to
spending more in the future. So I experienced this firsthand
when I was in my early twenties and I was
getting serious about my finances for the first time. And
(03:52):
as you will know, The first thing that you do
when you want to get better with money is you
have to sit down. If you do an audit, you
have to understand where is my money going. Been warned
by all of the male personal finance gurus that I
was following and listening to every day that, oh, housing
is a big problem for most people, transportation is a
big problem for most people. You're gonna have to watch
(04:12):
your restaurant spending. So I go in expecting to find
high expenses or high percentages in those areas, and that
is not what I found. I lived with a roommate
in an old building, I had a car that was
pretty reasonably priced and within my means, and my restaurant
spending was pretty average. But there was a section that
(04:36):
really jumped out at me when I did this audit,
and it was my personal care and beauty expenses. So
I sit down and I start punching the numbers and
the calculator on my phone and I'm like, that can't
be right. There's no way that that's right. And then
I rerun all the numbers again and it was like, oh, nope,
that that is correct. I am spending over three hundred
(04:56):
dollars a month on beauty on average. Now at the time,
I'm just represented almost ten percent of my take home pay.
So I had this horrifying realization that I was working
for almost an entire month every year just to be
pretty basically, and I essentially realized at the time, this
(05:17):
is not going to work. I can't keep doing this.
So I did the Hot Girl Detox. And now if
somebody listening at home wants to do a Hot Girl detox, Basically,
the steps that you take or you sit down, you
list every single beauty or personal care expense that you have.
You power rank them, so you're going to go, okay,
this is the most important thing to me. It's number
(05:38):
one all the way down to like the nice to haves,
and then little by little, one by one, starting at
the bottom, you are going to pull them out of
the budget and you're going to pull them off the calendar.
And I bet what you will find is what I found,
and that is that you are probably going to do
this to try to get money back. But what you're
going to find is that you're going to get a
lot of time back to and that in some ways
(06:01):
can be just as valuable. So now you know five
to seven years later, I have introduced a couple of
the things back. I mean, I'll still get my hair
cut and still get highlights sometimes or you know, every
once in a while, but have to buy skincare or
new mas scara. But even now that I can afford
(06:22):
those things, I didn't add them back in because doing
that detox and experimenting with my spending in that way
taught me that even though I thought I valued those things,
I really didn't and my life wasn't any poorer without them.
Speaker 3 (06:35):
It's such a helpful thing to highlight because yeah, we
do have these bigger expenses. We talk about the Big
three all the time, but these these other kind of
almost subscription based, even if we're not actually subscribed to
a nail salon or a hair analogy.
Speaker 4 (06:52):
Actually, but so much.
Speaker 3 (06:55):
I love how you've described we are signed up for
these things and kind of enslaved to them. But I'm
curious how you saw this impacting then, just like view
of self, because that could feel really scary for someone
to be like, uh, am I giving up this fifteen
step process skin routine. Am I really gonna not get
(07:15):
my eyebrows done? Like?
Speaker 4 (07:17):
What then happens?
Speaker 3 (07:19):
Have you found any replacements or because we talk about
it's not just about deprivation, it's about finding what works
for you. What did that look like in your journey.
Speaker 5 (07:29):
Well, something that I found out after the fact, years later,
is that what I was spending was actually almost exactly
what the average was. Your average woman spends as of
twenty seventeen, around three hundred dollars per month on beauty
and personal care. So I do think it's important to
start there because it helps us kind of set the stakes. Obviously,
(07:52):
listeners of this show will be familiar with the idea
of opportunity cost and if you're spending money on something,
that means you can't be investing it. So if you
were to take over a forty year career the average
monthly beauty spending of around three hundred dollars, and you
were to invest that instead, you're going to retire with
an extra million dollars. Now, that is not a cost
(08:13):
at the margin. We're not talking about the latte. This
is a retirement supporting amount of money. And so I
think it's important to get clear on the idea that
we have become so comfortable and so adept at discussing
beauty standards as psychologically oppressive forces in our lives, but
(08:34):
we often don't think about them as economically oppressive forces.
So when we talk about, oh, it feels vulnerable or
it feels risky to disengage or to divest from these systems,
that's because you probably receive signals every single time that
you leave your house that the way that you look matters.
We know that people who are above average quote unquote attractiveness,
(08:58):
and that's that's how they dictate it in the studies.
There's very bleak study methodology that I write about in
the book, where they basically line up five thousand women
and they go above average, average below average attractiveness, and
then they track their their grades and in person classes
over time. So we know that attractive people tend to
(09:18):
have easier lives. Beauty is a real form of capital.
It's social capital. We know that. So that's not to
say that if it feels risky or vulnerable that it's
all in your head. But the problem with investing in
beauty as capital is that, unlike real capital, it is
(09:39):
a depreciating asset. It's an asset that is going to
require more and more cash flow as you age to
kind of preserve the same benefits. It's a master that
will never be satisfied. So I think about that, and
I go, that is not a good ROI and I
am not interesting? Did in things that don't offer me
(10:02):
a good ROI? Now? Am I going to get something
for looking a little bit nicer? Sure? But what I
found when I talked to readers about the hut Girl
Hmster Wheel, because this is something that I've been writing
about for a long time, I hear interesting things. Some
women who were formerly very high maintenance, maybe even more
so than I was, and I almost very high maintenance.
Don't get me wrong. What they'll tell me is not
(10:25):
only did I get all this money back, but I
noticed that my life actually didn't really change. I still
got promoted at work, my partner still loves me. The
things that I feared really didn't come to pass. Or
they'll tell me, yeah, I let my I'm not coloring
my hair anymore, right like I let it go gray.
And I actually feel more powerful now because I know
(10:46):
that in that decision, not only am I prioritizing something
about my future that is a little bit more substantial
than like how I look in the moment, but I'm
also no longer contributing to a system that is bad
for other women. And I think that's the really important
thing when we talk about beauty standards that often get
swept under the rug or kind of out of the way,
which is that, yes, they are individual choices. Yes these
(11:09):
things are up to you what you want to participate in,
what you want to abstain from. But the way that
beauty standards and beauty norms work is that the more
people that try to embody them, the more expected they become.
There's a really great culture critic named Jessica Defino who
writes about this, and she basically says, when we all
(11:31):
strive to uphold these beauty standards, then that becomes the
baseline for what is expected for women to treat them
with basic human dignity. So I will hear from women
who say, I'm not coloring my hair anymore. I stopped
getting botox, yet it's saving me money. But I also
now know that when I walk down the street and
another woman looks at me, she's not gonna go now
feel like she needs to start coloring her hair or
(11:53):
she needs to go get botox. So I really look
at this topic as the intersection where individual choice and
basically collective action kind of overlap in an interesting way.
And that's why I start the book talking about this,
because I think it's a really underappreciated and underdiscussed element
of women in their financial futures.
Speaker 3 (12:15):
Yeah, there's so much permission giving happening here that is
really empowering. I remember seeing Chloe Daniels from chloebear, and
she posted recently, although that could have been a month
ago at this point, about how she stopped getting her
eyelashes done. And it was interesting because for me on
my side of things, and maybe some of our listeners too,
(12:36):
we are accustomed to going without and now that maybe
we've understood money more and how we can earn more
that then we are faced with what do I do
with my money? And this is what society is telling
us to do? This is what maybe other women subconsciously
or consciously are telling us to do that I have
(12:57):
had the thought in the past, if I could I
only afford it, I might get my lashes done, I
might get my eyebrows one. I might be able to
go get waxed every other month. And then to realize
and hear from some of these people who have been there,
done that saying, actually, I stop doing that, and I
like how my eyes look more, and I like the
(13:18):
freedom that I'm experiencing by not doing this anymore. I
think it works on both ways to help people detox
from the things that they're already doing, but also inform
those who might be earning more you don't have to
get onto that rat race.
Speaker 1 (13:32):
And there's this sense of like not everyone knows what
these beauty procedures are. So like if you're looking with
someone like super full lashes and you don't know that
they get their lashes done, and then you just feel insecure,
and then there's no solution for you even if you try.
So then maybe you're not going to spend money on beauty,
(13:52):
but then you're going to spend money on something else
because you have this self like deprecating like feeling all
the time. All the marketing across the board is marketing
to our insecurities, so it doesn't matter if it's like
insecurity in features and maybe you're not even going to
spend there, maybe you're going to spend somewhere else. So like,
(14:14):
if I can't be beautiful, then I'll be smart and
then you're going to spend money somewhere else, or I'm
going to go out and spend money and you know, happy.
Speaker 4 (14:23):
Hours and stuff. So it makes people like me.
Speaker 1 (14:25):
Yeah, it just it doesn't stop even if you don't
consider yourself to be someone who highly values aesthetics.
Speaker 5 (14:35):
I think the eyelash thing is just a really important
example that I want to double down on for a second,
because one of the more insidious elements of the hamster
wheel is not just that you have to keep spending
to uphold appearances, but that oftentimes there is like a
coercive force underlying stopping where I used to have fake eyelashes,
(14:57):
and let me tell you, when those things come off,
when you stop getting the little things adhered to your face,
your regular eyelashes, your natural eyelashes look terrible because they
get brittle and broken down. Anybody who's ever gotten acrylic
nails knows this game. You get acrylic nails, they look
amazing for like two weeks, and then they grow out
(15:20):
and you have to get them taken off, and the
nails underneath your natural nails that before were probably perfectly
suitable and beautiful are now yellowing and brittle and scratched, right,
So oftentimes these procedures and these services have a tendency
to leave you quote worse off than you even were
(15:40):
when you started. And so it really does function in
many ways like a trap. And so that's why I
think it's not that you should disengage with all of it.
They're very well maybe things that you look at that
realistically and you go, yes, and I can still afford
and still want to do this one particular thing, but
knowing the stakes of like Okay, well, what is really
(16:02):
going to be the consequences of this, both financially and
then like upkeep wise, that I think is something worth
going into with eyes wide open.
Speaker 1 (16:10):
Yeah, And so much of like female aesthetics was like
inherently designed to distract women away from other things, and
like you talk about this in your book, how Like
one of the book central themes is that the financial
system wasn't built with women in mind. So like, what
are some of the hidden rules or assumptions baked into
(16:33):
this system that more women should be aware of?
Speaker 5 (16:38):
Yeah, So at a high level, I think that personal
finance and investment best practices will probably be generally speaking
the same for everybody. However, the system that we existed
now was largely shaped in subtle and overt ways by
men's experiences, men's preferences, men's priorities, and so the reality
(17:02):
is that women do statistically face different financial challenges than
men do. So we've already talked at length about the
beauty and personal care consumer industries. These are industries that
exist almost solely to invent insecurities and then market ways
to fix them to one half of the population. You
also have to consider the fact that women now negotiate
(17:24):
just as often as men do, but they are now
fifteen percent less likely to get a raise when they
ask for more money, and this is in part because
a lot of negotiation advice focuses on teaching women to
be aggressive, demand your worth, ask for what you're worth. Well,
that doesn't really work for women the same way it
works for men. Because when women are seen as pursuing
(17:47):
quote unquote masculine goods, power, money, status, these zero sum
ideas that are considered to be inherently belonging to men
and therefore could never rightfully belong to a woman, they
are more likely to face pushback. So something that I
always like to note here too, though, is that this
road does go both ways that when men pursue flexibility
(18:10):
or other things that are kind of deemed as like
feminine values, they will also face more pushback. So really
we're all trapped in like the prison that is the
gender binary. But for women it results in fewer resources,
so over time we see the reality of the gender
wage gap worsen for women. This is true because when
women become parents, when they become mothers, they are likely
(18:34):
to kind of downshift at work. They're more likely to
downshift at work than a male partner or parent would be.
And this is true by the way, for like families,
where like the man would like to be more involved
or the man would like to be the one downshifting.
Often the economics of the household are such that that
really doesn't make sense. So you have these systemic forces
that are kind of in a i don't know, not
(18:56):
necessarily malevolent, and you could even say it's in a
benign way or kind of keying these structures in these
norms in place. So it is true that women spend
less time doing paid labor than men do, but it's
because they're spending on average roughly twice as much time
doing unpaid labor. So I really like the work of
Nobel Prize winning economist Claudia Golden. She found that this
(19:17):
reality is the primary driver of the gender wage gap,
this gap between paid and unpaid labor time effectively, and
so if you look at somebody's entire lifetime and you
compound those disparities, and then you consider the fact that
women are just going to frankly live longer. They have
average lifespans that are six and a half percent longer,
(19:38):
well statistically, now they're gonna be the ones who are
going to bear the brunt of any poor long term
financial planning. So we look at all these obstacles, we
study them longitudinally over the lifetime, and then you can
see in the data these discrepancies compound and women retire
with about fifty seven percent as much money as men do.
So a big part of my work is looking at
(20:02):
those realities, looking at that data head on, and going, Okay,
we know, if we're being intellectually honest, that we're not
going to fix these things in our own lives by
just like quote unquote, making different choices. Countries that are
serious about fixing these problems address them with policy, but
(20:22):
in the meantime, we are not without agency, and there
are things that we can do, whether that's negotiating in
a way that navigates gender bias successfully, whether that's saving
for childcare before you have a baby, and getting really
serious about having an egalitarian partnership and really ingesting the
(20:44):
knowledge that you need to be in the driver's state
of your financial life, that all of these things really
can make a difference. They do make a difference. So
I try to marry those two realities in my work.
Speaker 1 (20:57):
Yeah, you're so right, because my husband would love to
be a stay at home dad, but the nature of
his work is so much more stable than mine that
I am the parent that is doing drop off and
pick up and he would love to be doing that,
but like, financially, it's the risk we can't afford to take.
(21:19):
Uh So, yeah, that's absolutely And having a partnership where
both people are investing in each other's retirement like equally
is so important. And knowing like even if you're the
one making money and I'm the one staying home with
the kids, you can't work without me staying home with
(21:42):
the kids, or you will be putting this money into childcare.
If I am not here, so value equaling, like valuing
each other's work equally.
Speaker 3 (21:53):
Speaking of gender biases, gender norms, I think one of
the things that stands out to me the most in
this topic of salary and making money and finances is
specifically salary negotiations. And You've already touched on this a bit,
and I'm curious to dig in a little more on
how it can look different. And I've even experienced this
(22:16):
where if I try to implement the strategies of a
bro with a podcast with one hundred downloads, which I
do want to bring that energy to the temple.
Speaker 4 (22:27):
Energy.
Speaker 1 (22:29):
Energy that we are bringing everywhere.
Speaker 3 (22:32):
A white man with one hundred downloads has all the
confidence going on and.
Speaker 1 (22:37):
I've never been more successful than when I have brought
that energy.
Speaker 3 (22:41):
Okay, but truly, when it comes to asking for more,
advocating for oneself, entering into negotiations, it is becoming a
parent that our strategies do need to be a little different,
for better or worse.
Speaker 4 (22:54):
What have you found? How can you guide us?
Speaker 5 (22:57):
So I really love the work of this woman named
cass for in Valentine.
Speaker 1 (23:01):
Who we have had on the show. We will lick
that episode.
Speaker 5 (23:04):
I'm glad that you have. So some of this might
sound familiar, but I do want to share one of
the biggest negotiating tips that she shared with me that
I find to be extremely relevant, even beyond the scope
of just the very direct ask of more money, and
it's to stop talking. Women are socialized to put other
(23:25):
people at ease, to make other people feel comfortable. Right,
so if you're asking somebody for more money, or you're
you're really making any sort of ask of them, it's
kind of uncomfortable, kind of inherently uncomfortable. And so often
what they'll find in this research about gender bias and
negotiation is that women will make the ask and then
(23:45):
they will immediately begin negotiating against themselves and offering all
the reasons why they totally understand if it's not doable
right now, and I know the budgets are tight, so like,
if it's not this time, then maybe you've probably heard
this scene this and maybe even done this yourself. I
know that I have. So the advice is, once you
make the ask, and in the book I outline the
specific ways to like structure that ask for the best results,
(24:09):
stop talking and allow the uncomfortable silence the other really
critical thing to remember that I have found very useful
in my own work and in my time in corporate
settings is that workplaces are a little bit like glorified
high school lunchrooms, and so in many ways, perception is reality.
(24:32):
So the best time to begin setting the groundwork for
a negotiation is long before you are actually sitting down
to have that conversation. There are a couple components of
how you approach this. I generally bucket them into two
main categories. The first is your perceived value in the company,
and the second is your market rate. So, aside from upskilling,
(24:55):
you have a lot less control over your market rate
than you do or perceived value. So there are a
couple little tricks that I like to use for really
disproportionately shaping that perceived value. Women are extremely hard workers,
by and large. That is a generalization I'm very comfortable making.
So my advice is, these are not ways to work harder,
(25:16):
these are ways to work smarter. So the first is
socializing your wins. Oftentimes, popular negotiation advice will encourage you
to keep a list of your accomplishments, and that is great,
but it's actually way better if people know about those
accomplishments as they are happening. So this is kind of
an art and a science. There was one gal that
I worked with at Southwest Airlines back in the day.
(25:38):
She got promoted pretty much every time there was a
promotion cycle, so I really studied her and what she
was doing differently, and she was excellent at this. She
would communicate her team's wins and the initiatives that she
was driving for them as part of like, oh, just
sharing out learnings that others might find useful from this,
you know, user experience testing session that we were working on.
(26:00):
You know, if you'd like to talk more, I'm attaching
a deck of findings. So you're really it's a slippery
slope because you don't want it to be a bragging montage.
But the bottom line is that if you are doing
impressive things, people need to know about it. The next
is going the extra yard. So noe, we're not talking
about the extra mile, just a yard. If your deadline
(26:20):
for three factors that are impact and conversion is due
on Friday, you're gonna hands it over on Thursday, and
you're gonna throw in a fourth. If you are meeting
with someone, particularly somebody who is above you and the organization.
You're going to send an agenda ahead of time, and
you're going to manage up. I think that this is
especially important if you are bringing an issue to a manager,
because if you're setting up a meeting with somebody like
(26:40):
a manager or a supervisor, and you are bringing an
issue to them, you're dropping a problem in their lap.
Speaker 1 (26:45):
That's no good.
Speaker 5 (26:47):
It's a little bit better to come with an explanation
like here's my issue, and here's what I think is
causing it. But what's even better than that is coming
prepared with a few potential solutions and ideally which solution
you recommend, and if you have the latitude to do this, Oh,
by the way, I've already implemented my recommended solution. I'm
just keeping you in the loop now. So that is
(27:09):
something that I think goes a really really long way,
particularly as you kind of get stuck in that quote
unquote middle management. Oh my gosh. Moras with executing at
a level that will allow the people that probably have
a say over whether you are going to ascend higher
giving them the impression that you are there to make
(27:29):
their lives easier effectively, and that you are autonomous in
your job. I think that that goes a really really
long way. So my approach to negotiation, as you've probably gathered,
is yes, specific, Yes, we're going to talk about the semantics.
Yes we're going to talk about how to structure you're
asking your argument, but we should also widen the aperture
(27:49):
and talk about how you're actually approaching the job so
that when you sit down to have that conversation it's
just smooth sailing.
Speaker 1 (27:56):
Yes, sharing your wins strategic like that. That is white
man with one hundred downb. That is what we mean
because we see them sharing these things and we're like,
that's to me, it's not impressive because I've like done
(28:17):
that so long ago, But to other people who you
need to impress, they don't know that. And they see
that person sharing that success and that knowledge that comes
with it, but they don't see you sharing it, so
they don't know you have it.
Speaker 3 (28:35):
Yeah, and it can feel braggadocious or whatever you want
to say about it, especially for women, but I do
like the blanketing it in also a way to help
other people as well, which is.
Speaker 5 (28:49):
Something that would already expect for women to do. We
expect women to act relationally we expect women to think
communally to be helpful. So the more you can, I
don't know, man play into that trope now, trust me,
I'm the first person to be like, let's break the
glass fourth wall for a second. That's so annoying that
we have to think this way. But this is the
(29:09):
world we live in, and if you want to be
recognized for the good work that you're doing, these are
some ways to make sure that that happens.
Speaker 1 (29:16):
Yeah, And there is a balance between fighting against the
system and playing to your advantages within the system, and
you don't have to choose one or the other. You
can do both, and I love that you do.
Speaker 3 (29:31):
That.
Speaker 1 (29:32):
Last question is that you make a strong case for
women claiming unapologetic financial autonomy. So, for someone just waking
up to how uneven the playing field is, what's the
very first mindset shift or action you'd recommend?
Speaker 5 (29:51):
Oh, the first mindset shift or action.
Speaker 4 (29:55):
Most you want to jump to step ten.
Speaker 5 (29:57):
But no, I think that that's a good question because
I think that it's a step that every single person
is going to have to confront. And before I answer it,
I just want to tell you a little bit more
about why unapologetic financial autonomy is where I landed, and
(30:20):
it was some of the research that I found that
bolstered chapter three, which is called Knowledge is Power. It's
research from a bank called UBS, and every year they
do something called the Own Your Worth Report, and what
they find consistently is that even high earning millennial women,
so we're talking a young women, and we're talking women
that are making a lot of money in many cases,
(30:44):
are the breadwinners in their relationships. They're the primary primary,
they are the primary financial providers in their homes still
have a tendency to outsource their financial decision making to
male partners. Something like seventy percent of men in the
surveys will claim I am the financial decision maker in
this home. And there are a lot of reasons for this,
(31:07):
I mean, a popular reason for this, to be honest,
if we want to link this back to systemic forces,
is that women today, even modern high income women, are
very overburdened in their homes. To link it back to
the time you study data, right, we know that women
are within familial relationships probably spinning a lot more plates
(31:28):
just on average. Now, if someone in your relationship is saying,
don't worry babe, by God it, I'll take care of
the money. They're offering to take something off your plate,
and maybe it's something that you don't feel very confident
about anyway, you're like, great, Yeah, one less thing that
I have to worry about. So it makes perfect sense
why we've gotten here. But what jumped out to me
in this research is that a lot of women, what
(31:50):
they say when asked why do you do this, is
something to the effect of, well, financial decision making is
just quote less natural for me, And that phrase jumped
out at me immediately because I was like, natural, Well,
nothing about managing money and thriving under capitalism is natural.
I mean, everyone has to learn how to do that.
(32:12):
No one comes out of the womb knowing how to
balance a checkbook or diversify a portfolio. So I thought, Okay,
that's a really good insight. The idea that we feel
as though this is something that should come naturally to
us is something that we can affect right now, and
that's why I called it Knowledge is Power. Chapter three,
where we really get into some of the granularities around
(32:33):
how to plan long term for your finances. But that's
why I really wanted to lean into this idea that
we need to be unapologetic about this. We need to
recognize that this is something that not only are we
capable of doing, but we really ought to be doing it.
We are the best people to be making these decisions
about our future. No one is going to care more
(32:54):
about it than we do, even our spouses, who we
may love very much. Eighty four percent of wado's in
America are women, which means even women who are married
to wonderful male partners who never get divorced will still
need to know how to manage their money on their own.
So I think getting out of the mentality that any
(33:16):
of this should be coming naturally to you is probably
the mindset shift that I would say somebody should start with.
Speaker 1 (33:22):
Which is it's crazy because as a high performing woman,
I think a lot of things do come naturally to us.
So like it's just catch on to more things more quickly, right,
And so I don't know if there's like a disconnect obviously,
like us being in personal finance, like that's just something
(33:44):
that we live in and comes, you know, more quickly.
But I wonder if that's part of it. It's that
more things they do pick up more quickly and just
haven't gone into the money part.
Speaker 5 (33:59):
Yeah, I think it probably comes down to interest too,
because I mean, I don't know, I don't know that
it's true that money came came naturally or easily to me,
or if it was just that I was so interested
in it that learning about it felt easy, And that
might have been your experience too, where you were just
so enthralled with the topic that like studying.
Speaker 4 (34:19):
It was fun.
Speaker 5 (34:20):
But if I needed to know physics to manage my
life and future, I can promise you I would be like, Hey,
anyone else in my immediate circle want to handle this
for because I'm yeah, I could learn it, but I'm
not interested in learning it. So it might be a
matter of interest as well. But I really think that
(34:44):
the majority of women, particularly the type of women that
are being interviewed in surveys like these, they have done
and mastered far more complex topics than personal finance. As
the two of you probably know, Like we're not talking
about rocket scientists rocket science here. A lot of this
stuff is pretty pretty manageable once you like pull back
the curtain or lift up the hood. So that's that's
(35:07):
probably where I would start.
Speaker 3 (35:09):
Yeah, you know what I'm always interested in and actually
it does come quite naturally.
Speaker 1 (35:15):
It has truly come, probably most natural in anything that
we've done in podcasting.
Speaker 2 (35:21):
The week. That's right, it's time for the best minute
of your entire week. Maybe a baby was born and
his name is Williams. Maybe you paid off your mortgage,
(35:43):
maybe your car died and you're happy to not have
to pay that bill anymore. Duck bills, Buffalo bills, Bill clon.
Speaker 1 (35:50):
This is the bill of the week, Katie. Every week
we yell at our listeners and our guests to share
with us their bill of the week, and we leave
it as vague as possible to give you the freedom
to be unapologetically autonomous in your answer.
Speaker 5 (36:12):
Cool, okay, my bill of the week. I'm gonna go
the business owner route here. I just invested and I
paid part of the invoice, which is why it's my
bill of the week this week. Around fifteen thousand dollars
and getting a custom site made. And this is the
(36:33):
biggest investment I've ever made personally in the business, so
I'm excited about it. It's a lot of money. I
hope it pays off, but we're living through the risk
rewards cycle as we speak.
Speaker 1 (36:46):
Your branding upgrade is flawless. It is my favorite branding
I at least in personal finance, but like really in
a lot of other places too.
Speaker 5 (36:59):
So that very kind compliment the designers.
Speaker 1 (37:02):
Thank you, it's so good.
Speaker 3 (37:03):
Oh, business decisions, we were having a conversation ourselves about
where to invest money because there are so many options
and everybody wants your money and figuring out what is
going to be the best thing now and long term.
What's the opportunity cost here? It is no small thing,
and it is a little bit different than maybe some
(37:24):
of the ways that we would approach our own personal
finances and the choices that we would make. So yeah,
we can appreciate that. We feel that so deeply well
done for making this decision, and we are hopeful with
you that it turns out yet.
Speaker 5 (37:40):
Yeah, I know, I'm like, come back to money with
Katie dot com in August and hopefully you'll be greeted
by a much much improved experience.
Speaker 3 (37:48):
Fun If you all listening, have a bill that you
want to share, if it's about just a full send
on a business investment, or a bill that you didn't
have to pay, or your name is bill, visit Frugal
Friends podcast dot com, slash Bill leave it for us
a week, cannot wait, and now it's time for hang Bach.
Speaker 1 (38:12):
All right, let's get real vulnerable right now. What's a
recent life experience that made you feel like a rich girl?
Speaker 5 (38:22):
Oh? Man, a recent life experience that made me feel
like aurache girl. Well, so, for my book promotional tour,
I'm doing a talk at ninety second Street y in
New York, which is I learn I didn't know this
because I'm not from there, but is apparently like a
really really good venue for that sort of thing. And
(38:44):
I did kind of have a moment of like, oh, wow,
I've made it like I'm talking about my new book
at this you know, prestigious New York venue. And I
am a kind of normal person from northern Kentucky who
had never really set foot in a real city until
she was an adult. So I definitely had a moment
(39:07):
of Wow, I've really I've really come a long way.
Speaker 4 (39:13):
Yeah, yeah, that is so cool. That's osculations. What about
for you, Jen?
Speaker 1 (39:19):
Oh? So, I don't I don't know if it made
me feel like a rich girl. But last week we
got invited to be on a news segment and when
we get there, like they reached out to us, and
when we get there, we're like, so, how did you
like find us? And the anchors? Like my daughter is
(39:42):
a huge fan. Oh, I was like, dang, that sounds
like so fun. Yeah, so she was like begging me
to get you guys on So that was very gratifying.
Speaker 3 (39:55):
Yeah, that is cool, And I got to share it
that too, so I won't steal that. I'm sorry if
that's no, that's fine for me. I have been really
enjoying figuring out. We have been giving ourselves permission year
over year to earn more and recognizing the responsibility that
(40:16):
we have to be able to manage money well and
not approach it from a scarcity or deprivation mindset, and so.
Speaker 4 (40:24):
That has been happening.
Speaker 3 (40:25):
And then to have more to be able to make
decisions with and so one of the decisions that I
made recently was to pay my friend who is starting
her own business, to pull together a personalized style. She's
gotten into style theory and kind of did this whole
testing quizzes measurements on me and is creating a whole
(40:51):
style guide for me to feel much more confident in
the clothing that I wear as I also aim at
having a minimalist wardrobe that I am able to per
just secondhand. So it feels so values aligned, but also
you know extra like it's not fair minimum and it's
giving to a friend and I just feel like a
(41:11):
rich girl.
Speaker 1 (41:12):
Yeah, when he got our colors done, that was like,
have you heard of like getting your wardrobe colors done?
Speaker 5 (41:20):
Yeah, I've heard of it. I've never done it. What
were yours?
Speaker 1 (41:24):
I'm an autumn in the summer, So that has been
super helpful and understanding why am I holding onto these
things in my closet but I never wear them? And
it's like, oh, because the color doesn't look really good?
Or why do I not have any of this color
in my closet? Oh because I keep looking at this
(41:45):
shade when really this is the shade that looks best
on me. So that was really eye opening for us
to for me to and then now I can thrift
more easily, like I just stay away from certain colors
and yeah.
Speaker 3 (42:01):
Yeah, Oh, so there's your sales pitch, Katie. Everyone already
knows about you, but in case they in case they're
not fully aware, where can they get more from you?
Speaker 5 (42:14):
Well, if you like podcasts, check out The Money with
Katie's show. If you like to read like longer form essays,
I send those out nearly every week on the Money
with Katie Newsletter, which you can find out the imminently
remodeled Money with Katie dot com, and then on Instagram
you can find me at Money with Katie And of
course if you are interested, you can pick up my
(42:35):
new book, Rich Girl Nation.
Speaker 4 (42:37):
Excellent. Thanks so much for being here with us.
Speaker 5 (42:40):
Thank you so much for having me. It was a pleasure.
Speaker 3 (42:44):
That was a dream come true because I don't fan
out over many of our guests.
Speaker 4 (42:50):
Usually I don't know who they are. Wow, pick, I'm
on the show.
Speaker 1 (42:54):
Sorry if you've ever been on the show.
Speaker 3 (42:56):
And then we became friends, and that's great. That's the best, organic,
authentic Katie. However, I follow never thought that we'd be
able to wrangle her in for our podcast, but she
was so kind and willing and that was very fun
for us, and I loved her concept of the hot
(43:18):
girl hamster wheel. Honestly, anytime we can reframe the situation
and look at it from a new angle, it's very
fun for me. And anytime we can push back on
well established ideas and kind of saying, what about if
we're a little subversive here, and are we sure that
that's actually where we're spending the most money? And are
(43:39):
we sure that we really need to cut our rent
if we've already slashed it so far, there might be
other areas that.
Speaker 4 (43:47):
We need to be looking at.
Speaker 1 (43:48):
Yeah, questioning the traditional norms because personal finance is so
different now than even it was five years ago or
ten years ago. It always behooves us to be questioning
what was right then. If it's still right now, nine
times out of ten, it will still be like good
advice then is still good advice now? But there's always
(44:12):
something that can be approved upon or changed. So I
love that I can go to Katie's content to rethink
some of the things that I have thought of as normal.
Speaker 4 (44:28):
So true.
Speaker 3 (44:29):
Well, thank you all so much for listening, for watching
if you're on YouTube. If you are on YouTube, please
hit that subscribe button. It really helps us.
Speaker 1 (44:36):
If you're not on YouTube, head over to Frugal Friends
on YouTube and also hit the subscribe Please.
Speaker 3 (44:43):
We really love your listening and your watching, and we
also love your reading because many of you have read
our book by what you love Without Going Broke that
we wrote and published earlier this year, and we've been
loving to read some of those kind reviews, like this
one from Shell Pavlavich five stars. This book was entertaining
(45:04):
and easy to digest. I've been a Frugal Friends podcast
listener for years now, and I still learned new concepts
with this book. Jen and Jill offered tangible tips and
a call to action at the end of every chapter
that was important to us. I'm so glad we did that.
I love their simple approach to managing spending and building
a life that aligns with your values while still offering
(45:26):
grace for our humanity and easy read and I'll be
revisiting on a regular basis.
Speaker 4 (45:32):
Thank you, Michelle so much.
Speaker 3 (45:34):
We're so glad that those action steps and questions at
the end of every chapter was super useful for you.
Speaker 1 (45:39):
Yeah, if you enjoyed the show, please take a minute
to leave a rating review. It helps potential new listeners
and watchers know what the show is all about. And
if you've read the book, please take a minute to
leave a review wherever you've gotten it. And yeah, if
you have it by what youlovebook dot com, head over there.
Speaker 4 (46:00):
See you next time.
Speaker 1 (46:03):
Gorugal Friends is produced by Eric Sirianni.
Speaker 4 (46:17):
Jen. Have you ever been on a Hot girl hamster wheel?
Speaker 1 (46:22):
I feel like I never get off as much as
I try.
Speaker 4 (46:30):
M I what hot things? Are you presuming things?
Speaker 1 (46:35):
It's not even hot. It's just like minimum standards for
being a female. That's I mean, honestly, I am not
forced to do them, but they do provide confidence, and
so there's like this balance, right, like I want to
feel confident, but what is confidence and what is insecure?
(47:00):
So that is a continual battle in my mind.
Speaker 3 (47:06):
Yeah, because you can have both people being like, yeah,
let's be positive about your looks and you're beautiful and
whatever makes you feel good, which that is also mashed
into spending a lot on your hair, makeup, clothing, exercise, nutrition,
and sometimes we can cloak it in I just want
(47:28):
to feel good, but a lot of times it is
I just want to look good, and yet there's nothing.
Speaker 4 (47:34):
Wrong with that. It's like, oh, I can talk myself
into all these sort.
Speaker 1 (47:37):
Of episodes on skinny talk and GLP ones and the
health and wellness industry is coming.
Speaker 3 (47:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (47:45):
I have been obsessive about that line and it's coming.
Speaker 4 (47:54):
Subscribe stay too. If you want more of this conversation.
Getting Off the Hot Girl Hamster Wheel with Katie Gotty Tossin.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
Welcome to the Frugal Friends podcast, where you'll learn to
save money, embrace simplicity, and liver your life. Here your
hosts Jen and Jill.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
Welcome to Frugal Friends. My name is Jen, my name
is Jill, and today we are talking with Money with
Katie Katie Gotty Tossin about getting off the Hot Girl
Hamster Wheel.
Speaker 3 (00:33):
In this episode, you will learn about the industries that
profit from our insecurities, how to navigate negotiations as a female,
and how to do a hot girl detox with your budget.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
But first, this episode is brought to you by our
annual finance Planner. We released a budget a few months
ago and saw that it was going to be way
too big if we included all of the tabs we
wanted to include, so we made a separate finance planner
for your whole year. So planning out the activities you
(01:08):
want to do with your family, the activities you want
to do with self care, your travel, your travel rewards,
credit cards, all of their benefits, Just planning all of
the things for your finances in one spreadsheet with like
twenty different tabs, So if you want to check out
all the tabs that are available Frugal Friends, podcast, dot com,
slash Planner, and it could be really beneficial to you.
(01:32):
I know it has been for me, even maybe even
more than the budget because I use an app. But
some people love their spreadsheets.
Speaker 3 (01:41):
And this will be especially helpful for you after you
listen to our conversation with Katie.
Speaker 1 (01:45):
So for those of you who don't know Katie, she
is the voice of Money with Katie and she's the
author of Rich Girl Nation. Her work focuses on the
intersection where are economic, political, and cultural context meets the
practical money advice that everyone needs to thrive. And that's
a long winded way to say she has a really
(02:08):
cool podcast. I really like following her on social media,
and I really like listening to her long form podcast content.
And I don't listen to a lot of podcasts. I
know that my sound hypocritical, but I don't. But I
really do love hers, So I'm really excited to introduce
you to her. If you've never heard her before, you're
(02:31):
gonna love her.
Speaker 4 (02:31):
Here she is Katie.
Speaker 1 (02:36):
Welcome to Frugal Friends. We are so excited to have
you and talk about your book that I am very
excited to read.
Speaker 5 (02:46):
Oh, thank you. I'm really excited to be here. So
thanks for having me.
Speaker 3 (02:50):
We're fan girling. This is fun for us, fun for
our audience. And you've got some really great things that
you talk about in your book that's coming out. And
one of the things that stood out to me that
I'm curious to get your perspective on is a Hot
Girl Detox. This sounds really fun in the budget. Can
you tell us about it?
Speaker 5 (03:10):
Yes, So, the Hot Girl Detox is a conceptual offshoot
from the hot Girl hamster wheel, which is the phrase
that I came up with to describe just the absolute
litany of recurring expenses that are necessary to uphold what
I call the capital a capital f acceptable feminine experience
(03:31):
or appearance. So I call it a hamster wheel because
the nature of these purchases is such that many of
them are things you can't really just do once, Like
every single dollar that you spend is a commitment to
spending more in the future. So I experienced this firsthand
when I was in my early twenties and I was
getting serious about my finances for the first time. And
(03:52):
as you will know, The first thing that you do
when you want to get better with money is you
have to sit down. If you do an audit, you
have to understand where is my money going. Been warned
by all of the male personal finance gurus that I
was following and listening to every day that, oh, housing
is a big problem for most people, transportation is a
big problem for most people. You're gonna have to watch
(04:12):
your restaurant spending. So I go in expecting to find
high expenses or high percentages in those areas, and that
is not what I found. I lived with a roommate
in an old building, I had a car that was
pretty reasonably priced and within my means, and my restaurant
spending was pretty average. But there was a section that
(04:36):
really jumped out at me when I did this audit,
and it was my personal care and beauty expenses. So
I sit down and I start punching the numbers and
the calculator on my phone and I'm like, that can't
be right. There's no way that that's right. And then
I rerun all the numbers again and it was like, oh, nope,
that that is correct. I am spending over three hundred
(04:56):
dollars a month on beauty on average. Now at the time,
I'm just represented almost ten percent of my take home pay.
So I had this horrifying realization that I was working
for almost an entire month every year just to be
pretty basically, and I essentially realized at the time, this
(05:17):
is not going to work. I can't keep doing this.
So I did the Hot Girl Detox. And now if
somebody listening at home wants to do a Hot Girl detox, Basically,
the steps that you take or you sit down, you
list every single beauty or personal care expense that you have.
You power rank them, so you're going to go, okay,
this is the most important thing to me. It's number
(05:38):
one all the way down to like the nice to haves,
and then little by little, one by one, starting at
the bottom, you are going to pull them out of
the budget and you're going to pull them off the calendar.
And I bet what you will find is what I found,
and that is that you are probably going to do
this to try to get money back. But what you're
going to find is that you're going to get a
lot of time back to and that in some ways
(06:01):
can be just as valuable. So now you know five
to seven years later, I have introduced a couple of
the things back. I mean, I'll still get my hair
cut and still get highlights sometimes or you know, every
once in a while, but have to buy skincare or
new mas scara. But even now that I can afford
(06:22):
those things, I didn't add them back in because doing
that detox and experimenting with my spending in that way
taught me that even though I thought I valued those things,
I really didn't and my life wasn't any poorer without them.
Speaker 3 (06:35):
It's such a helpful thing to highlight because yeah, we
do have these bigger expenses. We talk about the Big
three all the time, but these these other kind of
almost subscription based, even if we're not actually subscribed to
a nail salon or a hair analogy.
Speaker 4 (06:52):
Actually, but so much.
Speaker 3 (06:55):
I love how you've described we are signed up for
these things and kind of enslaved to them. But I'm
curious how you saw this impacting then, just like view
of self, because that could feel really scary for someone
to be like, uh, am I giving up this fifteen
step process skin routine. Am I really gonna not get
(07:15):
my eyebrows done? Like?
Speaker 4 (07:17):
What then happens?
Speaker 3 (07:19):
Have you found any replacements or because we talk about
it's not just about deprivation, it's about finding what works
for you. What did that look like in your journey.
Speaker 5 (07:29):
Well, something that I found out after the fact, years later,
is that what I was spending was actually almost exactly
what the average was. Your average woman spends as of
twenty seventeen, around three hundred dollars per month on beauty
and personal care. So I do think it's important to
start there because it helps us kind of set the stakes. Obviously,
(07:52):
listeners of this show will be familiar with the idea
of opportunity cost and if you're spending money on something,
that means you can't be investing it. So if you
were to take over a forty year career the average
monthly beauty spending of around three hundred dollars, and you
were to invest that instead, you're going to retire with
an extra million dollars. Now, that is not a cost
(08:13):
at the margin. We're not talking about the latte. This
is a retirement supporting amount of money. And so I
think it's important to get clear on the idea that
we have become so comfortable and so adept at discussing
beauty standards as psychologically oppressive forces in our lives, but
(08:34):
we often don't think about them as economically oppressive forces.
So when we talk about, oh, it feels vulnerable or
it feels risky to disengage or to divest from these systems,
that's because you probably receive signals every single time that
you leave your house that the way that you look matters.
We know that people who are above average quote unquote attractiveness,
(08:58):
and that's that's how they dictate it in the studies.
There's very bleak study methodology that I write about in
the book, where they basically line up five thousand women
and they go above average, average below average attractiveness, and
then they track their their grades and in person classes
over time. So we know that attractive people tend to
(09:18):
have easier lives. Beauty is a real form of capital.
It's social capital. We know that. So that's not to
say that if it feels risky or vulnerable that it's
all in your head. But the problem with investing in
beauty as capital is that, unlike real capital, it is
(09:39):
a depreciating asset. It's an asset that is going to
require more and more cash flow as you age to
kind of preserve the same benefits. It's a master that
will never be satisfied. So I think about that, and
I go, that is not a good ROI and I
am not interesting? Did in things that don't offer me
(10:02):
a good ROI? Now? Am I going to get something
for looking a little bit nicer? Sure? But what I
found when I talked to readers about the hut Girl
Hmster Wheel, because this is something that I've been writing
about for a long time, I hear interesting things. Some
women who were formerly very high maintenance, maybe even more
so than I was, and I almost very high maintenance.
Don't get me wrong. What they'll tell me is not
(10:25):
only did I get all this money back, but I
noticed that my life actually didn't really change. I still
got promoted at work, my partner still loves me. The
things that I feared really didn't come to pass. Or
they'll tell me, yeah, I let my I'm not coloring
my hair anymore, right like I let it go gray.
And I actually feel more powerful now because I know
(10:46):
that in that decision, not only am I prioritizing something
about my future that is a little bit more substantial
than like how I look in the moment, but I'm
also no longer contributing to a system that is bad
for other women. And I think that's the really important
thing when we talk about beauty standards that often get
swept under the rug or kind of out of the way,
which is that, yes, they are individual choices. Yes these
(11:09):
things are up to you what you want to participate in,
what you want to abstain from. But the way that
beauty standards and beauty norms work is that the more
people that try to embody them, the more expected they become.
There's a really great culture critic named Jessica Defino who
writes about this, and she basically says, when we all
(11:31):
strive to uphold these beauty standards, then that becomes the
baseline for what is expected for women to treat them
with basic human dignity. So I will hear from women
who say, I'm not coloring my hair anymore. I stopped
getting botox, yet it's saving me money. But I also
now know that when I walk down the street and
another woman looks at me, she's not gonna go now
feel like she needs to start coloring her hair or
(11:53):
she needs to go get botox. So I really look
at this topic as the intersection where individual choice and
basically collective action kind of overlap in an interesting way.
And that's why I start the book talking about this,
because I think it's a really underappreciated and underdiscussed element
of women in their financial futures.
Speaker 3 (12:15):
Yeah, there's so much permission giving happening here that is
really empowering. I remember seeing Chloe Daniels from chloebear, and
she posted recently, although that could have been a month
ago at this point, about how she stopped getting her
eyelashes done. And it was interesting because for me on
my side of things, and maybe some of our listeners too,
(12:36):
we are accustomed to going without and now that maybe
we've understood money more and how we can earn more
that then we are faced with what do I do
with my money? And this is what society is telling
us to do? This is what maybe other women subconsciously
or consciously are telling us to do that I have
(12:57):
had the thought in the past, if I could I
only afford it, I might get my lashes done, I
might get my eyebrows one. I might be able to
go get waxed every other month. And then to realize
and hear from some of these people who have been there,
done that saying, actually, I stop doing that, and I
like how my eyes look more, and I like the
(13:18):
freedom that I'm experiencing by not doing this anymore. I
think it works on both ways to help people detox
from the things that they're already doing, but also inform
those who might be earning more you don't have to
get onto that rat race.
Speaker 1 (13:32):
And there's this sense of like not everyone knows what
these beauty procedures are. So like if you're looking with
someone like super full lashes and you don't know that
they get their lashes done, and then you just feel insecure,
and then there's no solution for you even if you try.
So then maybe you're not going to spend money on beauty,
(13:52):
but then you're going to spend money on something else
because you have this self like deprecating like feeling all
the time. All the marketing across the board is marketing
to our insecurities, so it doesn't matter if it's like
insecurity in features and maybe you're not even going to
spend there, maybe you're going to spend somewhere else. So like,
(14:14):
if I can't be beautiful, then I'll be smart and
then you're going to spend money somewhere else, or I'm
going to go out and spend money and you know, happy.
Speaker 4 (14:23):
Hours and stuff. So it makes people like me.
Speaker 1 (14:25):
Yeah, it just it doesn't stop even if you don't
consider yourself to be someone who highly values aesthetics.
Speaker 5 (14:35):
I think the eyelash thing is just a really important
example that I want to double down on for a second,
because one of the more insidious elements of the hamster
wheel is not just that you have to keep spending
to uphold appearances, but that oftentimes there is like a
coercive force underlying stopping where I used to have fake eyelashes,
(14:57):
and let me tell you, when those things come off,
when you stop getting the little things adhered to your face,
your regular eyelashes, your natural eyelashes look terrible because they
get brittle and broken down. Anybody who's ever gotten acrylic
nails knows this game. You get acrylic nails, they look
amazing for like two weeks, and then they grow out
(15:20):
and you have to get them taken off, and the
nails underneath your natural nails that before were probably perfectly
suitable and beautiful are now yellowing and brittle and scratched, right,
So oftentimes these procedures and these services have a tendency
to leave you quote worse off than you even were
(15:40):
when you started. And so it really does function in
many ways like a trap. And so that's why I
think it's not that you should disengage with all of it.
They're very well maybe things that you look at that
realistically and you go, yes, and I can still afford
and still want to do this one particular thing, but
knowing the stakes of like Okay, well, what is really
(16:02):
going to be the consequences of this, both financially and
then like upkeep wise, that I think is something worth
going into with eyes wide open.
Speaker 1 (16:10):
Yeah, And so much of like female aesthetics was like
inherently designed to distract women away from other things, and
like you talk about this in your book, how Like
one of the book central themes is that the financial
system wasn't built with women in mind. So like, what
are some of the hidden rules or assumptions baked into
(16:33):
this system that more women should be aware of?
Speaker 5 (16:38):
Yeah, So at a high level, I think that personal
finance and investment best practices will probably be generally speaking
the same for everybody. However, the system that we existed
now was largely shaped in subtle and overt ways by
men's experiences, men's preferences, men's priorities, and so the reality
(17:02):
is that women do statistically face different financial challenges than
men do. So we've already talked at length about the
beauty and personal care consumer industries. These are industries that
exist almost solely to invent insecurities and then market ways
to fix them to one half of the population. You
also have to consider the fact that women now negotiate
(17:24):
just as often as men do, but they are now
fifteen percent less likely to get a raise when they
ask for more money, and this is in part because
a lot of negotiation advice focuses on teaching women to
be aggressive, demand your worth, ask for what you're worth. Well,
that doesn't really work for women the same way it
works for men. Because when women are seen as pursuing
(17:47):
quote unquote masculine goods, power, money, status, these zero sum
ideas that are considered to be inherently belonging to men
and therefore could never rightfully belong to a woman, they
are more likely to face pushback. So something that I
always like to note here too, though, is that this
road does go both ways that when men pursue flexibility
(18:10):
or other things that are kind of deemed as like
feminine values, they will also face more pushback. So really
we're all trapped in like the prison that is the
gender binary. But for women it results in fewer resources,
so over time we see the reality of the gender
wage gap worsen for women. This is true because when
women become parents, when they become mothers, they are likely
(18:34):
to kind of downshift at work. They're more likely to
downshift at work than a male partner or parent would be.
And this is true by the way, for like families,
where like the man would like to be more involved
or the man would like to be the one downshifting.
Often the economics of the household are such that that
really doesn't make sense. So you have these systemic forces
that are kind of in a i don't know, not
(18:56):
necessarily malevolent, and you could even say it's in a
benign way or kind of keying these structures in these
norms in place. So it is true that women spend
less time doing paid labor than men do, but it's
because they're spending on average roughly twice as much time
doing unpaid labor. So I really like the work of
Nobel Prize winning economist Claudia Golden. She found that this
(19:17):
reality is the primary driver of the gender wage gap,
this gap between paid and unpaid labor time effectively, and
so if you look at somebody's entire lifetime and you
compound those disparities, and then you consider the fact that
women are just going to frankly live longer. They have
average lifespans that are six and a half percent longer,
(19:38):
well statistically, now they're gonna be the ones who are
going to bear the brunt of any poor long term
financial planning. So we look at all these obstacles, we
study them longitudinally over the lifetime, and then you can
see in the data these discrepancies compound and women retire
with about fifty seven percent as much money as men do.
So a big part of my work is looking at
(20:02):
those realities, looking at that data head on, and going, Okay,
we know, if we're being intellectually honest, that we're not
going to fix these things in our own lives by
just like quote unquote, making different choices. Countries that are
serious about fixing these problems address them with policy, but
(20:22):
in the meantime, we are not without agency, and there
are things that we can do, whether that's negotiating in
a way that navigates gender bias successfully, whether that's saving
for childcare before you have a baby, and getting really
serious about having an egalitarian partnership and really ingesting the
(20:44):
knowledge that you need to be in the driver's state
of your financial life, that all of these things really
can make a difference. They do make a difference. So
I try to marry those two realities in my work.
Speaker 1 (20:57):
Yeah, you're so right, because my husband would love to
be a stay at home dad, but the nature of
his work is so much more stable than mine that
I am the parent that is doing drop off and
pick up and he would love to be doing that,
but like, financially, it's the risk we can't afford to take.
(21:19):
Uh So, yeah, that's absolutely And having a partnership where
both people are investing in each other's retirement like equally
is so important. And knowing like even if you're the
one making money and I'm the one staying home with
the kids, you can't work without me staying home with
(21:42):
the kids, or you will be putting this money into childcare.
If I am not here, so value equaling, like valuing
each other's work equally.
Speaker 3 (21:53):
Speaking of gender biases, gender norms, I think one of
the things that stands out to me the most in
this topic of salary and making money and finances is
specifically salary negotiations. And You've already touched on this a bit,
and I'm curious to dig in a little more on
how it can look different. And I've even experienced this
(22:16):
where if I try to implement the strategies of a
bro with a podcast with one hundred downloads, which I
do want to bring that energy to the temple.
Speaker 4 (22:27):
Energy.
Speaker 1 (22:29):
Energy that we are bringing everywhere.
Speaker 3 (22:32):
A white man with one hundred downloads has all the
confidence going on and.
Speaker 1 (22:37):
I've never been more successful than when I have brought
that energy.
Speaker 3 (22:41):
Okay, but truly, when it comes to asking for more,
advocating for oneself, entering into negotiations, it is becoming a
parent that our strategies do need to be a little different,
for better or worse.
Speaker 4 (22:54):
What have you found? How can you guide us?
Speaker 5 (22:57):
So I really love the work of this woman named
cass for in Valentine.
Speaker 1 (23:01):
Who we have had on the show. We will lick
that episode.
Speaker 5 (23:04):
I'm glad that you have. So some of this might
sound familiar, but I do want to share one of
the biggest negotiating tips that she shared with me that
I find to be extremely relevant, even beyond the scope
of just the very direct ask of more money, and
it's to stop talking. Women are socialized to put other
(23:25):
people at ease, to make other people feel comfortable. Right,
so if you're asking somebody for more money, or you're
you're really making any sort of ask of them, it's
kind of uncomfortable, kind of inherently uncomfortable. And so often
what they'll find in this research about gender bias and
negotiation is that women will make the ask and then
(23:45):
they will immediately begin negotiating against themselves and offering all
the reasons why they totally understand if it's not doable
right now, and I know the budgets are tight, so like,
if it's not this time, then maybe you've probably heard
this scene this and maybe even done this yourself. I
know that I have. So the advice is, once you
make the ask, and in the book I outline the
specific ways to like structure that ask for the best results,
(24:09):
stop talking and allow the uncomfortable silence the other really
critical thing to remember that I have found very useful
in my own work and in my time in corporate
settings is that workplaces are a little bit like glorified
high school lunchrooms, and so in many ways, perception is reality.
(24:32):
So the best time to begin setting the groundwork for
a negotiation is long before you are actually sitting down
to have that conversation. There are a couple components of
how you approach this. I generally bucket them into two
main categories. The first is your perceived value in the company,
and the second is your market rate. So, aside from upskilling,
(24:55):
you have a lot less control over your market rate
than you do or perceived value. So there are a
couple little tricks that I like to use for really
disproportionately shaping that perceived value. Women are extremely hard workers,
by and large. That is a generalization I'm very comfortable making.
So my advice is, these are not ways to work harder,
(25:16):
these are ways to work smarter. So the first is
socializing your wins. Oftentimes, popular negotiation advice will encourage you
to keep a list of your accomplishments, and that is great,
but it's actually way better if people know about those
accomplishments as they are happening. So this is kind of
an art and a science. There was one gal that
I worked with at Southwest Airlines back in the day.
(25:38):
She got promoted pretty much every time there was a
promotion cycle, so I really studied her and what she
was doing differently, and she was excellent at this. She
would communicate her team's wins and the initiatives that she
was driving for them as part of like, oh, just
sharing out learnings that others might find useful from this,
you know, user experience testing session that we were working on.
(26:00):
You know, if you'd like to talk more, I'm attaching
a deck of findings. So you're really it's a slippery
slope because you don't want it to be a bragging montage.
But the bottom line is that if you are doing
impressive things, people need to know about it. The next
is going the extra yard. So noe, we're not talking
about the extra mile, just a yard. If your deadline
(26:20):
for three factors that are impact and conversion is due
on Friday, you're gonna hands it over on Thursday, and
you're gonna throw in a fourth. If you are meeting
with someone, particularly somebody who is above you and the organization.
You're going to send an agenda ahead of time, and
you're going to manage up. I think that this is
especially important if you are bringing an issue to a manager,
because if you're setting up a meeting with somebody like
(26:40):
a manager or a supervisor, and you are bringing an
issue to them, you're dropping a problem in their lap.
Speaker 1 (26:45):
That's no good.
Speaker 5 (26:47):
It's a little bit better to come with an explanation
like here's my issue, and here's what I think is
causing it. But what's even better than that is coming
prepared with a few potential solutions and ideally which solution
you recommend, and if you have the latitude to do this, Oh,
by the way, I've already implemented my recommended solution. I'm
just keeping you in the loop now. So that is
(27:09):
something that I think goes a really really long way,
particularly as you kind of get stuck in that quote
unquote middle management. Oh my gosh. Moras with executing at
a level that will allow the people that probably have
a say over whether you are going to ascend higher
giving them the impression that you are there to make
(27:29):
their lives easier effectively, and that you are autonomous in
your job. I think that that goes a really really
long way. So my approach to negotiation, as you've probably gathered,
is yes, specific, Yes, we're going to talk about the semantics.
Yes we're going to talk about how to structure you're
asking your argument, but we should also widen the aperture
(27:49):
and talk about how you're actually approaching the job so
that when you sit down to have that conversation it's
just smooth sailing.
Speaker 1 (27:56):
Yes, sharing your wins strategic like that. That is white
man with one hundred downb. That is what we mean
because we see them sharing these things and we're like,
that's to me, it's not impressive because I've like done
(28:17):
that so long ago, But to other people who you
need to impress, they don't know that. And they see
that person sharing that success and that knowledge that comes
with it, but they don't see you sharing it, so
they don't know you have it.
Speaker 3 (28:35):
Yeah, and it can feel braggadocious or whatever you want
to say about it, especially for women, but I do
like the blanketing it in also a way to help
other people as well, which is.
Speaker 5 (28:49):
Something that would already expect for women to do. We
expect women to act relationally we expect women to think
communally to be helpful. So the more you can, I
don't know, man play into that trope now, trust me,
I'm the first person to be like, let's break the
glass fourth wall for a second. That's so annoying that
we have to think this way. But this is the
(29:09):
world we live in, and if you want to be
recognized for the good work that you're doing, these are
some ways to make sure that that happens.
Speaker 1 (29:16):
Yeah, And there is a balance between fighting against the
system and playing to your advantages within the system, and
you don't have to choose one or the other. You
can do both, and I love that you do.
Speaker 3 (29:31):
That.
Speaker 1 (29:32):
Last question is that you make a strong case for
women claiming unapologetic financial autonomy. So, for someone just waking
up to how uneven the playing field is, what's the
very first mindset shift or action you'd recommend?
Speaker 5 (29:51):
Oh, the first mindset shift or action.
Speaker 4 (29:55):
Most you want to jump to step ten.
Speaker 5 (29:57):
But no, I think that that's a good question because
I think that it's a step that every single person
is going to have to confront. And before I answer it,
I just want to tell you a little bit more
about why unapologetic financial autonomy is where I landed, and
(30:20):
it was some of the research that I found that
bolstered chapter three, which is called Knowledge is Power. It's
research from a bank called UBS, and every year they
do something called the Own Your Worth Report, and what
they find consistently is that even high earning millennial women,
so we're talking a young women, and we're talking women
that are making a lot of money in many cases,
(30:44):
are the breadwinners in their relationships. They're the primary primary,
they are the primary financial providers in their homes still
have a tendency to outsource their financial decision making to
male partners. Something like seventy percent of men in the
surveys will claim I am the financial decision maker in
this home. And there are a lot of reasons for this,
(31:07):
I mean, a popular reason for this, to be honest,
if we want to link this back to systemic forces,
is that women today, even modern high income women, are
very overburdened in their homes. To link it back to
the time you study data, right, we know that women
are within familial relationships probably spinning a lot more plates
(31:28):
just on average. Now, if someone in your relationship is saying,
don't worry babe, by God it, I'll take care of
the money. They're offering to take something off your plate,
and maybe it's something that you don't feel very confident
about anyway, you're like, great, Yeah, one less thing that
I have to worry about. So it makes perfect sense
why we've gotten here. But what jumped out to me
in this research is that a lot of women, what
(31:50):
they say when asked why do you do this, is
something to the effect of, well, financial decision making is
just quote less natural for me, And that phrase jumped
out at me immediately because I was like, natural, Well,
nothing about managing money and thriving under capitalism is natural.
I mean, everyone has to learn how to do that.
(32:12):
No one comes out of the womb knowing how to
balance a checkbook or diversify a portfolio. So I thought, Okay,
that's a really good insight. The idea that we feel
as though this is something that should come naturally to
us is something that we can affect right now, and
that's why I called it Knowledge is Power. Chapter three,
where we really get into some of the granularities around
(32:33):
how to plan long term for your finances. But that's
why I really wanted to lean into this idea that
we need to be unapologetic about this. We need to
recognize that this is something that not only are we
capable of doing, but we really ought to be doing it.
We are the best people to be making these decisions
about our future. No one is going to care more
(32:54):
about it than we do, even our spouses, who we
may love very much. Eighty four percent of wado's in
America are women, which means even women who are married
to wonderful male partners who never get divorced will still
need to know how to manage their money on their own.
So I think getting out of the mentality that any
(33:16):
of this should be coming naturally to you is probably
the mindset shift that I would say somebody should start with.
Speaker 1 (33:22):
Which is it's crazy because as a high performing woman,
I think a lot of things do come naturally to us.
So like it's just catch on to more things more quickly, right,
And so I don't know if there's like a disconnect obviously,
like us being in personal finance, like that's just something
(33:44):
that we live in and comes, you know, more quickly.
But I wonder if that's part of it. It's that
more things they do pick up more quickly and just
haven't gone into the money part.
Speaker 5 (33:59):
Yeah, I think it probably comes down to interest too,
because I mean, I don't know, I don't know that
it's true that money came came naturally or easily to me,
or if it was just that I was so interested
in it that learning about it felt easy, And that
might have been your experience too, where you were just
so enthralled with the topic that like studying.
Speaker 4 (34:19):
It was fun.
Speaker 5 (34:20):
But if I needed to know physics to manage my
life and future, I can promise you I would be like, Hey,
anyone else in my immediate circle want to handle this
for because I'm yeah, I could learn it, but I'm
not interested in learning it. So it might be a
matter of interest as well. But I really think that
(34:44):
the majority of women, particularly the type of women that
are being interviewed in surveys like these, they have done
and mastered far more complex topics than personal finance. As
the two of you probably know, Like we're not talking
about rocket scientists rocket science here. A lot of this
stuff is pretty pretty manageable once you like pull back
the curtain or lift up the hood. So that's that's
(35:07):
probably where I would start.
Speaker 3 (35:09):
Yeah, you know what I'm always interested in and actually
it does come quite naturally.
Speaker 1 (35:15):
It has truly come, probably most natural in anything that
we've done in podcasting.
Speaker 2 (35:21):
The week. That's right, it's time for the best minute
of your entire week. Maybe a baby was born and
his name is Williams. Maybe you paid off your mortgage,
(35:43):
maybe your car died and you're happy to not have
to pay that bill anymore. Duck bills, Buffalo bills, Bill clon.
Speaker 1 (35:50):
This is the bill of the week, Katie. Every week
we yell at our listeners and our guests to share
with us their bill of the week, and we leave
it as vague as possible to give you the freedom
to be unapologetically autonomous in your answer.
Speaker 5 (36:12):
Cool, okay, my bill of the week. I'm gonna go
the business owner route here. I just invested and I
paid part of the invoice, which is why it's my
bill of the week this week. Around fifteen thousand dollars
and getting a custom site made. And this is the
(36:33):
biggest investment I've ever made personally in the business, so
I'm excited about it. It's a lot of money. I
hope it pays off, but we're living through the risk
rewards cycle as we speak.
Speaker 1 (36:46):
Your branding upgrade is flawless. It is my favorite branding
I at least in personal finance, but like really in
a lot of other places too.
Speaker 5 (36:59):
So that very kind compliment the designers.
Speaker 1 (37:02):
Thank you, it's so good.
Speaker 3 (37:03):
Oh, business decisions, we were having a conversation ourselves about
where to invest money because there are so many options
and everybody wants your money and figuring out what is
going to be the best thing now and long term.
What's the opportunity cost here? It is no small thing,
and it is a little bit different than maybe some
(37:24):
of the ways that we would approach our own personal
finances and the choices that we would make. So yeah,
we can appreciate that. We feel that so deeply well
done for making this decision, and we are hopeful with
you that it turns out yet.
Speaker 5 (37:40):
Yeah, I know, I'm like, come back to money with
Katie dot com in August and hopefully you'll be greeted
by a much much improved experience.
Speaker 3 (37:48):
Fun If you all listening, have a bill that you
want to share, if it's about just a full send
on a business investment, or a bill that you didn't
have to pay, or your name is bill, visit Frugal
Friends podcast dot com, slash Bill leave it for us
a week, cannot wait, and now it's time for hang Bach.
Speaker 1 (38:12):
All right, let's get real vulnerable right now. What's a
recent life experience that made you feel like a rich girl?
Speaker 5 (38:22):
Oh? Man, a recent life experience that made me feel
like aurache girl. Well, so, for my book promotional tour,
I'm doing a talk at ninety second Street y in
New York, which is I learn I didn't know this
because I'm not from there, but is apparently like a
really really good venue for that sort of thing. And
(38:44):
I did kind of have a moment of like, oh, wow,
I've made it like I'm talking about my new book
at this you know, prestigious New York venue. And I
am a kind of normal person from northern Kentucky who
had never really set foot in a real city until
she was an adult. So I definitely had a moment
(39:07):
of Wow, I've really I've really come a long way.
Speaker 4 (39:13):
Yeah, yeah, that is so cool. That's osculations. What about
for you, Jen?
Speaker 1 (39:19):
Oh? So, I don't I don't know if it made
me feel like a rich girl. But last week we
got invited to be on a news segment and when
we get there, like they reached out to us, and
when we get there, we're like, so, how did you
like find us? And the anchors? Like my daughter is
(39:42):
a huge fan. Oh, I was like, dang, that sounds
like so fun. Yeah, so she was like begging me
to get you guys on So that was very gratifying.
Speaker 3 (39:55):
Yeah, that is cool, And I got to share it
that too, so I won't steal that. I'm sorry if
that's no, that's fine for me. I have been really
enjoying figuring out. We have been giving ourselves permission year
over year to earn more and recognizing the responsibility that
(40:16):
we have to be able to manage money well and
not approach it from a scarcity or deprivation mindset, and so.
Speaker 4 (40:24):
That has been happening.
Speaker 3 (40:25):
And then to have more to be able to make
decisions with and so one of the decisions that I
made recently was to pay my friend who is starting
her own business, to pull together a personalized style. She's
gotten into style theory and kind of did this whole
testing quizzes measurements on me and is creating a whole
(40:51):
style guide for me to feel much more confident in
the clothing that I wear as I also aim at
having a minimalist wardrobe that I am able to per
just secondhand. So it feels so values aligned, but also
you know extra like it's not fair minimum and it's
giving to a friend and I just feel like a
(41:11):
rich girl.
Speaker 1 (41:12):
Yeah, when he got our colors done, that was like,
have you heard of like getting your wardrobe colors done?
Speaker 5 (41:20):
Yeah, I've heard of it. I've never done it. What
were yours?
Speaker 1 (41:24):
I'm an autumn in the summer, So that has been
super helpful and understanding why am I holding onto these
things in my closet but I never wear them? And
it's like, oh, because the color doesn't look really good?
Or why do I not have any of this color
in my closet? Oh because I keep looking at this
(41:45):
shade when really this is the shade that looks best
on me. So that was really eye opening for us
to for me to and then now I can thrift
more easily, like I just stay away from certain colors
and yeah.
Speaker 3 (42:01):
Yeah, Oh, so there's your sales pitch, Katie. Everyone already
knows about you, but in case they in case they're
not fully aware, where can they get more from you?
Speaker 5 (42:14):
Well, if you like podcasts, check out The Money with
Katie's show. If you like to read like longer form essays,
I send those out nearly every week on the Money
with Katie Newsletter, which you can find out the imminently
remodeled Money with Katie dot com, and then on Instagram
you can find me at Money with Katie And of
course if you are interested, you can pick up my
(42:35):
new book, Rich Girl Nation.
Speaker 4 (42:37):
Excellent. Thanks so much for being here with us.
Speaker 5 (42:40):
Thank you so much for having me. It was a pleasure.
Speaker 3 (42:44):
That was a dream come true because I don't fan
out over many of our guests.
Speaker 4 (42:50):
Usually I don't know who they are. Wow, pick, I'm
on the show.
Speaker 1 (42:54):
Sorry if you've ever been on the show.
Speaker 3 (42:56):
And then we became friends, and that's great. That's the best, organic,
authentic Katie. However, I follow never thought that we'd be
able to wrangle her in for our podcast, but she
was so kind and willing and that was very fun
for us, and I loved her concept of the hot
(43:18):
girl hamster wheel. Honestly, anytime we can reframe the situation
and look at it from a new angle, it's very
fun for me. And anytime we can push back on
well established ideas and kind of saying, what about if
we're a little subversive here, and are we sure that
that's actually where we're spending the most money? And are
(43:39):
we sure that we really need to cut our rent
if we've already slashed it so far, there might be
other areas that.
Speaker 4 (43:47):
We need to be looking at.
Speaker 1 (43:48):
Yeah, questioning the traditional norms because personal finance is so
different now than even it was five years ago or
ten years ago. It always behooves us to be questioning
what was right then. If it's still right now, nine
times out of ten, it will still be like good
advice then is still good advice now? But there's always
(44:12):
something that can be approved upon or changed. So I
love that I can go to Katie's content to rethink
some of the things that I have thought of as normal.
Speaker 4 (44:28):
So true.
Speaker 3 (44:29):
Well, thank you all so much for listening, for watching
if you're on YouTube. If you are on YouTube, please
hit that subscribe button. It really helps us.
Speaker 1 (44:36):
If you're not on YouTube, head over to Frugal Friends
on YouTube and also hit the subscribe Please.
Speaker 3 (44:43):
We really love your listening and your watching, and we
also love your reading because many of you have read
our book by what you love Without Going Broke that
we wrote and published earlier this year, and we've been
loving to read some of those kind reviews, like this
one from Shell Pavlavich five stars. This book was entertaining
(45:04):
and easy to digest. I've been a Frugal Friends podcast
listener for years now, and I still learned new concepts
with this book. Jen and Jill offered tangible tips and
a call to action at the end of every chapter
that was important to us. I'm so glad we did that.
I love their simple approach to managing spending and building
a life that aligns with your values while still offering
(45:26):
grace for our humanity and easy read and I'll be
revisiting on a regular basis.
Speaker 4 (45:32):
Thank you, Michelle so much.
Speaker 3 (45:34):
We're so glad that those action steps and questions at
the end of every chapter was super useful for you.
Speaker 1 (45:39):
Yeah, if you enjoyed the show, please take a minute
to leave a rating review. It helps potential new listeners
and watchers know what the show is all about. And
if you've read the book, please take a minute to
leave a review wherever you've gotten it. And yeah, if
you have it by what youlovebook dot com, head over there.
Speaker 4 (46:00):
See you next time.
Speaker 1 (46:03):
Gorugal Friends is produced by Eric Sirianni.
Speaker 4 (46:17):
Jen. Have you ever been on a Hot girl hamster wheel?
Speaker 1 (46:22):
I feel like I never get off as much as
I try.
Speaker 4 (46:30):
M I what hot things? Are you presuming things?
Speaker 1 (46:35):
It's not even hot. It's just like minimum standards for
being a female. That's I mean, honestly, I am not
forced to do them, but they do provide confidence, and
so there's like this balance, right, like I want to
feel confident, but what is confidence and what is insecure?
(47:00):
So that is a continual battle in my mind.
Speaker 3 (47:06):
Yeah, because you can have both people being like, yeah,
let's be positive about your looks and you're beautiful and
whatever makes you feel good, which that is also mashed
into spending a lot on your hair, makeup, clothing, exercise, nutrition,
and sometimes we can cloak it in I just want
(47:28):
to feel good, but a lot of times it is
I just want to look good, and yet there's nothing.
Speaker 4 (47:34):
Wrong with that. It's like, oh, I can talk myself
into all these sort.
Speaker 1 (47:37):
Of episodes on skinny talk and GLP ones and the
health and wellness industry is coming.
Speaker 3 (47:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (47:45):
I have been obsessive about that line and it's coming.
Speaker 4 (47:54):
Subscribe stay too. If you want more of this conversation.
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