Negotiating Medical Bills with Dr. Virgie Bright Ellington

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Episode four seventy is episode two thirty Negotiating Medical Bills
with Doctor Vergie bright Ellington.

Speaker 2 (00:10):
Welcome to the Frugal Friends podcast, where you'll learn to
save money, embrace simplicity, and live your life here your
hosts Jen and Jill.

Speaker 1 (00:27):
Welcome to the Frugal Friends Podcast. Happy Christmas Eve, Happy
Hanukah Eve.

Speaker 3 (00:31):
My name is Jen, my name is Jill, and.

Speaker 1 (00:34):
We are re airing our probably this year, our most
recommended episode. It's the one we personally have told so
many people about in the last I guess two years,
because that's when it aired, was two years ago, and
it's definitely been the one that we've recommended the most
on negotiating medical bills.

Speaker 3 (00:55):
It's such a practical need that we all have, are
currently facing, or will face. This is one of the
episodes that I've recommended to just personal friends of mine.
I'll be like, you don't have to listen to my
podcast on an ongoing basis, but here's a really helpful one.
When people have questions about it, I just think it's

(01:16):
so so tangible, useful. So we're putting it at the
top of the list again so you don't have to
dig through the archives. But first, this episode is brought
to you by.

Speaker 4 (01:27):
Gold gld baby pure unadulterated gold like previous podcast episodes
that just crushed and the book that is probably being
printed as we speak.

Speaker 3 (01:45):
You know, our book by What you Love Without Going Broke.
If you want all the golden nuggets and even a
few golden bricks right at your doorstep in your hands,
pre order that book by what youlovebook dot com. There's
still time. It is the day before Christmas. If you
want to give yourself a little.

Speaker 5 (02:04):
Extras your self a gift, yes, and pre order that
book baby, Yeah, and it'll be it'll be too ye
really here seven here's the best gift if you pre
order before the twenty ninth, So if you're listening to
this on the twenty fourth or maybe the twenty six,
On December twenty ninth.

Speaker 1 (02:23):
We are doing a live class for only pre orderers
on creating a one year meal plan. So if you
are struggling with food costs, if you are a human being,
then you're definitely going to want to be there for
our live class on creating a one a practical, doable,
one year meal plan, and that is exclusive to pre

(02:47):
orderers of the book, So head to buy what youolovebook
dot com and once you purchase the book, that same
page is where you would submit your proof of purchase
to get access to that live class. And then on
January twenty ninth, we are doing one more on making
a one year spending plan.

Speaker 3 (03:04):
And we are recording those two. So if you can't
join live, but you've pre ordered the book and you
filled out the form on that same website by what
youlovebook dot com, you'd still have access to the content.
So if having a full year MEIL plan and having
a walkthrough of making a full year spending plan feels
useful for you this time of year, turing into a
new year, then then at least at least buy the book.

Speaker 1 (03:27):
You got both of those things and a book for
twenty five dollars. That feels like a good gift. So,
speaking of saving money and ways to lower your expenses
medical bills, we have done several episodes on negotiating because
it is a really effective way to lower what you

(03:49):
pay and also increase what you earn. We've got episode
four forty nine how Women Can Negotiate Better with Catherine Valentine,
and then episode three thirty nine how to negoti and
Save Lots of money. Those are two of our most
recent negotiation episodes. But you can search Negotiate Frugal Friends
on your podcast player find different episodes also on our

(04:11):
website Frugal Friends podcast dot com. But this is such
a great episode, full of great facts and tips and
I can't wait for you to hear it.

Speaker 3 (04:21):
Let's get into it.

Speaker 1 (04:26):
Doctor Virgie, Welcome to the Frugal Friends Podcast. It is
a honor and pleasure to have you on.

Speaker 6 (04:34):
Yeah what, ladies, It is my honor and pleasure. And
I've been following you guys for a few years. I've
been on your list serve and I'm trying to think
of how many years has been, but I know it
was like way before the pandemic. So when I saw
you guys have a podcast, I'm like, Hey, the world
is small, this is awesome. Life is good.

Speaker 3 (04:52):
So we're just fanning on each other, but mostly we
are here to highlight you, doctor Virgie, your knowledge and
experience what you have to share with our listeners today.
So thanks for being here and sharing what you know.

Speaker 6 (05:06):
Thank you so much for having me.

Speaker 1 (05:08):
Yeah, so let's dive in. You are an expert on
medical billing and medical debts. So I know the first
thing people will usually get is a surprise charge on
their bills. That's happened so often. How should people handle
surprise charges on their medical bills?

Speaker 6 (05:28):
So surprise charge, we called surprise billing is actually a
formal description. There's an actual The term surprise bill or
surprise billing refers an actuality to cases in which you
have insurance and you go to get care at a
facility and maybe you had the option it was an

(05:49):
elective thing and you had a knee surgery had planned,
or unfortunately, if you had an emergency and you go
to a facility and you know that they take your
insurance when you don't have any choice of the physicians
that are involved with your care. Physicians that you have
no choice in choosing, like the er doc, the anesthesiologist.

(06:10):
They're radiologists who reads the X ray of they're broken
to determine if your bonu is broken. If you have
the elect of surgery, they take tissue, they send it
off anything that's taken from the human body. They'll send
it off to pathology for a physician to look at
it under the microscope to make sure it's it's always
benign meaning non canceros versus they don't see any cancer cells.

(06:32):
Those are all folks. Those are all physicians that you
don't have any choice in picking. And if they are
out of network, that means that they'll send you a
bill for their whole full retail price and you're stuck
with it. So this has been an issue because there

(06:53):
are business models. There are there's private equity, there are
corporations whose business model is to say, Okay, we're going
to hire all these docs who you have no choice
in picking when you go to the hospital or you
need care, and we're going to charge the full price,
which is often tends and tends and I can't explain

(07:15):
how outrageous the numbers are when they don't take insurance.
They take no insurances, that's their business model. And you
go in thinking that you've done all of your research
to make sure that you're in network with this facility,
but they hire physicians who are not. That results in
a surprise bill.

Speaker 1 (07:36):
So how do we when we do we have any
power over that?

Speaker 3 (07:40):
Either before or after?

Speaker 6 (07:43):
Yep, the great news is as of January first of
this year, a bill was passed it's now federal law
where if you have insurance and you go to an
in network provider and you are given sent a bill
by other physicians that are involved with your care who
do not accept your insurance, they have to negotiate directly

(08:04):
with the insurance company to work out a payment, you know,
workout is it going to be the in network rate
that they usually pay, or are they going to pay
a little bit of a premium. Whatever it is, the
patient is out of the middle. So until now, until
January first of this year, there are a few states
that had you know, bills were in that state that

(08:25):
you could not get a surprise bill. Well, it was
illegal in that state to charge patients who you if
they're out of network, if you charge them out of
network prices. But now it's a federal law. So that's
how you protect yourself. You make sure that if you've
gotten a bill from you go to get care and

(08:48):
you've gotten a bill where it says, you know what,
we're not in network with your provider, well with your
insurance rather, well, not my problem anymore. As a January one,
twenty twenty two, you're going to put them in touch.
Then they know this the providers know this, they have
to deal with your insurance directly and leave the patient
out instead of having the patient holding the bag, which

(09:09):
has been the case for eons until now.

Speaker 3 (09:13):
So if you get that bill, if we get that
bill in the mail and we realize this, we've now
listened to doctor Virgie and we know a bill has
passed and we're not responsible for this. Would that just
be us reminding the provider of that law and please
talk to my insurance company.

Speaker 6 (09:29):
Yeah, talk to my insurance company. You know they say,
comp to the hand, talk to my insurance company. I'm out. So,
you know, I really like to use this as an
opportunity to talk about there's a reason why. This is
the reason why there's only one right way to pay
a medical bill, and that's because usually, unfortunately, I would

(09:49):
say nine times out of ten, a medical care facility
will send you a bill that's not a real bill,
and they do that because they know it works. We
panic and we'll figure out how to pay this off.
So I'm going to take you through the one right
way to pay a medical bill. There's three steps. And
in this process, Jillian, we're going to say, Okay, you

(10:11):
know what, by doing this process of the one right
way of paying medical bill. Going through the three steps,
we're not going to get caught by any tricks like
surprise billing. So it's the one right way to pay
a medical bill will protect you from, among other things,
surprise billing. So the one thing you want to do
when you get up any medical bill is to look

(10:33):
to make sure that it's an accurate or itemized bill.
And what I'm calling now a real bill. A real
bill has what's called CPT codes. CPT codes are just
like bar codes. When you go into a store. Every
product has a bar code, right you take that product,
you run it through the scanner and it'll tell you.

(10:54):
It'll all identify you some description of the product and
the price that the facility is charging for that particular product.
Same thing with CPT codes. Every single medical service in
the United States has ACPT code. And I won't worry
you with what CPT stands for. There are people who
work in the insurance company I know for years and

(11:16):
they can't remember what CPT and you know, it has
a long name, you know, common procedural terminology, which is
why we don't use We just call it CPT codes.
And I was talking to a radio host a couple
of months ago, and he says, you know what we
should call it can't pay this. That's what CPTs anyway.
So oh yeah, right, So you get a medical bill

(11:41):
and you make sure it has CPT codes at the top.
You'll see CPT at the top and under it. CPT
codes are usually like a five digit number describing a service.
So that's what you're going to do. You're going to
the first step is call your provider and get a
real bill. So what I've been talking about this and

(12:03):
some one of those things that's been blugging me this week,
I'm realizing, you know, these bills that we often get
that consumers, the American patients, the public gets are just
not bills. They're kind of like wishful thinking. They're like, oh,
maybe they'll pay it if we send them this with
no CPT codes and it has a description and that's it.

(12:24):
You know, they think that it's a real bill, but
it's not. So first step always call to make sure
you get a real bill, which is an itemized bill
basically fancy name for a bill with CPT codes, and
that takes you to the second step. When you get
that bill with CPT codes. You're going to take it

(12:45):
and google the codes to make sure that each of
the codes describes the service that you think you got
or services that you think you received during your stay
or during your visit. Great, once you get those codes
will come up as a description and awesome, and you're
making sure that makes sense in terms of what you got,
makeing sure you're not getting double bill that kind of thing,

(13:07):
or bill for something you know that you didn't get.
Then you're going to take those codes and you're going
to continue to google, but this time you're going to
google what Medicare pays for each of those codes for
each of those services. So Medicare is federal government care healthcare,
and CMS which stands for Centers for Medicaid and Medicare Services,

(13:32):
has a standard list of things that they pay for
each CPT code. Right. The thing is is that I
consider Medicare the basic flat rate. So there are a
lot of people who do this kind of work, meaning
trying to help people or struggling with medical bills, educating

(13:52):
the American public in terms of medical financial literacy. And
they say, well, okay, we look this up, but we're
going to agree to pay two times a Medicare rate.
That takes us down to step three. I disagree. I
think start at Medicare. Start at the Medicare price. That's
the point where you're going to negotiate. Don't go straight

(14:14):
to negotiation without doing the first two steps because you're
being overcharged. Their retail rates are often three hundred to
five hundred percent more than what Medicare pays. And so
when I say, you know what, I start at the
Medicare rate. When I say step three, that's the number
you're going to start when you call back the medical
billing department or the patient accounts department of the facility

(14:36):
and say, you know what, this is what I can afford.
These are the services I got, this is what I'm
able to pay. I think this is fair from my
research and the care that I received. Now, some folks
like I was saying, thinks, you know, I think that
two times a Medicare rate is a good place to start.
And that's because if you call some of these facilities,

(14:56):
you're going to get pushed back. And the general thought
is the general push is, well, if everybody paid Medicare
rates or paid the Medicare prices, we wouldn't be able
to stay in business, we wouldn't be able to provide
care to everyone. I'm not so sure about that, and
even so, not my problem, not my problem. If I
have a budget which takes me to step three, you're

(15:19):
going to call back the provider's office, billing department, patient
accounts office and ask for number one an interest free
payment plan that fits your budget. And this is really
important because people get upset when they think about how

(15:40):
long it's going to take them to pay off a bill.
They said, oh my gosh, it's going to take me
five years, seven years, ten years, and so what right?
So the reason why you make it. You're going to
get probably pushed back when you call back the department
billing department and say, hey, this is what I'm willing
to pay. You know, I need an interest free payment plan.

(16:01):
They're going to say, you know, well, this is a
ten thousand dollars bill and you know you're paying is
turn in and fifty dollars a month. It's just going
to take us forever to pay it off. Can you
do you know we discussed this too. That's just too
little and this will take us too long to get paid.
Can you do three fifty. No, I can only do
two fifty. And the reason why you want to stick

(16:22):
with that is because if you make an agreement with
the care facility, it doesn't get reported to credit agencies, right,
It's it's blind. It doesn't impact your credit report at all,
which is awesome. But if you agree to any payment
plan and you can't make a payment, they will automatically

(16:42):
really quickly, and surprise how fast they do it. They'll
send it right to collections, to deck, They'll sell it
to a debt collections for pennies on the dollar. So
you may say, okay, well why wouldn't they why would
they agree to take so little over a long period
of time? And I say the reasons while you want
to stick with your budget when you're calling the facility

(17:05):
and talking about the payment plan that you need, it's because,
as they say, a little bit of something is better
than all of nothing, right, they know it's cheaper, you know,
to take it, you know, instead of having to chase
you potentially and or have to sell it if they
have to chase you long enough for pennies on the dollar,

(17:26):
you know, to a collections agency. So those are the
three steps for the one right way to pay a
medical bill.

Speaker 3 (17:34):
That's so hopeful. And at the end of the day,
you have already gone through the first two steps where
you are equipped with knowledge, You've been able to get
rid of any bills or itemized line pieces that you
are not actually obligated to pay, You've lowered the rate,
and then if it is still too much for you

(17:55):
to be able to pay outright that interest free portion.
Of course, not of us like having those payments, but
if it's interest free, that makes a big difference, especially
as it concerns healthcare things that we need to stay alive.
We're not just talking about some luxury item exactly.

Speaker 6 (18:13):
It's not consumer debt. Yeah, and you know the current
administration is realizing, hey, you know what, we need to
treat it as such medical debt. Medical bills are not
a choice. Student loans at the end of the day,
is a choice. But you know, none of us ask
to get here, right, none of us has to be born.
And once we get here, we're living creatures, and we

(18:36):
get sick, things happen, we have accidents, and so it's
not consumer debt. And I'm glad that the administration is
trying to teach folks that, hey, we need to treat
medical bills differently than consumer bills, medical debt different than consumer.

Speaker 3 (18:53):
Debt well, and it carries so much anxiety because not
only are you managing physical health both problems, but also
financial difficulties too, depending on the amount of money that's
owed and whether or not insurance is covering it or
you're able to pay. And so I think we've got
a couple of layers here of just receiving a bill

(19:16):
that might be overwhelming that we can't really pay, but
then that can stack up to medical debt as you're
describing here. And I know even before we got on
you were even beginning to talk about preventative measures, So
talking about preventative but as well as maybe even reactive
because sometimes we find ourselves there. What are some of

(19:36):
your tips when we are deep into some medical debt?
What can be done?

Speaker 6 (19:43):
One of the things you know, I like to you know,
remindfulks about is that you know it's not your fault,
and you think that, oh my gosh, it's scary, it's complicated.
You know, I'm screwed. What am I going to do?
I'm going to have to declare bankruptcy. I can't pay this,
and many people have. So the first thing I tell

(20:03):
folks is that it's not your fault, and yes, there
are things you can do, so yes, go through and
we'll let me just say one more thing. The reason
why we also panic is because an often panic in
addition to all of this, is that this happens to
us when we're at our most vulnerable, when we're sick,

(20:23):
in pain, scared, afraid, unable to work. You know, whether
we have insurance or not, most of us get for
our insurance and our employers. If we miss enough work
because of the illness or the accident, we'll lose our
job in there for our insurance. So that there's so multiple,
many reasons why folks in this country get taken advantage

(20:45):
of by the system this, you know, healthcare industry and
our country for profit healthcare industry in our country. So
what I tell people number one is to step back
and if you're able to pull all of your bills,
don't ignore the bills. You know, if you can be
ahead of it and call them first, the billing department first,

(21:05):
as I explain, and go back and ask for real bills.
And a real bill has a CPT code. The other
thing I tell folks is to make sure that you're
not confusing a real bill with because you're not confusing
a real bill with if you have insurance and explanation
of benefits or an EOB. And I've gotten multiple calls

(21:29):
and examples of where folks, so I got this bill
from my insurance company. No, you're not going to get
a bill from your insurance company. What you received is
a notice of what they paid and or what they're
saying they're not going to pay, and what you're going
to be responsible for, and you're gonna have to deal
with the provider yourself. So I make sure that I

(21:51):
ask folks to pull out anything that says Usually it'll
say it right across the front page and subsequent pages,
this is not a bill. Those are EOB, your explanation
of benefits. So pull that out and then pull out
the actual bills that don't have that's at the top,
that's not from your insurance company. If you have insurance
and call a provider, ask for the real bill with

(22:12):
CPT codes, and then if it's less than I tell
people this all the time, if it's less than six
months out from the services that you received. You can
still go back and apply for financial assistance and in
some cases even Medicaid. Depending on the state that you're in,
you can go back and apply for Medicaid, or if

(22:34):
your income is low enough, sit for bills that are
six months less than six months old. So that's one option.
Often we're kind of in between that we're not at
the point where we have to say, Okay, you know what,
I have zero income, I need to consider applying for medicaid.
Most of us are in the position where we've gone
to a healthcare facility that is nonprofit. Most of the

(22:59):
majority of healthcare facilities hospital medical systems in this country
are nonprofit. And I stop calling it nonprofit, I call
it tax exempt because they really have a lot of surplus.
Let's put it that way, right, exactly right. So sixty
five percent of hospitals in the United States are tax

(23:23):
exempt aka nonprofit, and in exchange for the bi federal
law for tax exempt nonprofit status, they provide sliding scale,
income based discounts to the public in the community that
they serve. So what this means is many bills that

(23:45):
you get if you just go to them and say, look,
call up the office and say, look, this is the
research I got, the real bill with CPT codes of
researched it. This is what I can afford to pay.
And for how long you call them up and say, yeah,
you know, this is what I can do. You'd be
surprised that, although by law they're supposed to make it

(24:07):
post it publicly nonprofit facilities, that of what the process
is to apply for financial aid. And a lot of
people don't like that term financial aid, you know, but
you know they think of it as charity care as
different euphemisms and right, charity care, financial assistance, financial aid.
It's all income based discounts. And if you have you'd

(24:28):
be surprised at the high income you can have. If
your bill is high enough, you may able to get
it completely wipe gock just based on your income. I've
seen a bill as little as I think it was
like thirteen thousand dollars. I don't mean little, but compared
to their income. The person have like one hundred and
fifty thousand dollars gross income that they showed on you know,

(24:51):
you're going to be asked to show documents and things
and based on their income. And the bill bill was
so large in relationship to their income. The whole thing,
the whole bill was wiped away.

Speaker 3 (25:05):
Wow.

Speaker 6 (25:06):
Wow, Now if you had not right, if you had
not been aware that you have rights as if you
went to a non profit facility, tax exempt facility, yeah,
you have. We have options. So just because the majority
of healthcare facilities in our country are nonprofit, sixty five

(25:27):
percent of them, this is an option. Now, someone brought
something to my attention. They see that even for profit
facilities have financial assistance programs. You know, if you don't ask,
you don't get right, So always always ask.

Speaker 3 (25:41):
A few things are standing out to me and what
you're describing here. First of all, knowing what you can pay,
of course, once you've realized what you are actually responsible for,
because sometimes they might charge you for things you're not
responsible for. But then once you figure out this is
what I actually oh, going to them with a number,
which is classic negotiation tip for any type of thing

(26:03):
that we're trying to negotiate. Having that number, not just
going and saying I don't know, what can you do
and then going from there, but also recognizing that this
is available to us, and there is no shame in
pushing for lower rates because you might not actually have
to pay that high rate, and why would you if

(26:26):
you're not able to if the organization, the company, the
hospital has ability to give it to you at a
discounted rate. I think the thing that stands out to
me is just the time and energy that all of
this takes, the know how of going through the paperwork,
of finding the phone numbers, of sitting on hold, of
doing the research. And it's worth it, and we've seen

(26:49):
that it's worth it, but especially when you might be
going through a time that is physically demanding or exhausting
and you've got various medical canncerns that I think that
that's a it's a big deal and and I don't
know if there's much that can be said or a
magic wand that we can wave over that, but community

(27:09):
hopefully someone to sit by your side as you're going
through all this paperwork. But yeah, there's there's a couple
of layers here.

Speaker 6 (27:19):
Yeah, the most difficult about this is that this happens
to us. This is done to us, not by accident,
just because they know they can get away with it, frankly,
and in addition, they know they can get away with
it more likely because it's when we're at our most vulnerable.
You know, we're sick, we're tired, we're scared, we're in pain,

(27:41):
we're grieving, you know, and why do they do it? Well?
It works, It works. I was talking actually with my husband,
who's a thirty five year law enforcement veteran, and you know,
we talk about you know, laws, federal laws versus state laws,
that kind of thing. And I said to him, I said,
you know what, I've been going through a lot of

(28:03):
medical bill mistakes and going through, you know, looking at
bills and saying, well, this is a mistake. And if
you can imagine eighty to ninety percent of every medical
bill and generating this country has mistakes, and if you
can imagine, they're not going to be in the favor
of the patient, right, They're going to be in the
favor of the provider and or the insurance company. I

(28:24):
was talking to them and I said, you know, it
just hit me. Why should consumers patients be given bills
that don't have CPT codes. If there is zero insurance
company in this country that would ever ever even consider
a bill submit it from the provider that doesn't have

(28:47):
CPT codes, So why do they generate them and send
them to the patient. Why do they sip? Why do
they generate two different kinds of bills? One that's not
a real bill. I call it a summary bill. Sometimes
I'll call it a detailed summary bill. It doesn't matter.
It doesn't have CPT codes. It's not a real bill.
Why generate something separate that you just send the patients

(29:07):
if it's not the same thing that you send the
insurance companies, And insurance companies you always send if you
want to get paid as a provider, you're going to
send the insurance companies bills with CPT codes, right, So
why do we generate Why do providers, healthcare facilities generate
bills that have no CPT codes to patients? Because it works,

(29:30):
and because by law there's no law requiring them to
do it. I thought, you know what, there needs to
be a federal law to have the same bill that
is sent to insurance companies sent to the patient, just
so there's no confusion. Right. And my husband's like, oh,
good luck with everge. You know the political climate. He says,
you may be able to do it state by state,

(29:52):
and he says you can start somewhere.

Speaker 3 (29:53):
But I loves you're having for another, go ahead and
try it years down the road.

Speaker 6 (30:03):
You know, something else to work on in my spare time, right.

Speaker 1 (30:06):
Right, But it is smart to realize these things because
as consumers we don't know. We don't see a ton
of bills. Like, if you don't work in the healthcare industry,
you have no idea you know that what CPT codes are.
The huge book full of CPT codes, Like, there's so
many of them.

Speaker 6 (30:27):
There's three specifics exactly, there's more than three hundred thousand
CPT codes. And you don't have to memory. You don't
have to know any of them. You just have to
know where to find it. You know, it's not you
know how it goes, not what you know, it's you
know who you know? Right well, you know, doctor Google,
You'll take up CPT code and you'll google it. You
don't need to remember, you don't need to memorize any

(30:49):
of them. So I use the analogy gin of going
to a car mechanic. Right, So, your car doesn't work,
it's not doing something it is supposed to do. You
take it to the mechanic. Well, you don't have to
know fancy mechanic words and how the car runs. And
that kind of thing to know, number one, what you're
able to pay for it. Right, You don't need to

(31:11):
know fancy medical words and CPT codes. You don't have
to have them memorized and know what they are to
be able to understand what fits in your budget when
you have to pay for your care.

Speaker 1 (31:23):
I know I can go to a car dealership and
be like, I can't afford a car that's more than
twenty thousand dollars, and they will do you know, they
will tell me what I need to compromise on to
stay in my budget. And it's just not the same
with healthcare exactly.

Speaker 6 (31:40):
That's you know, Jen, that's the exact that's the exact
analogy I use. I say, you know what, when you
go to a car dealership, we know personal financial literacy.
We know that if you're buying a new car, old car,
you are expected to negotiate. There's just basic things you're
supposed to know. And you don't think that well, I
don't know any thing about how cars work. I don't

(32:01):
know any fancy car terms, but I know that I
want like a big car with a big engine, so
I know I want a V eight. We don't you
don't have to know how the VA works and all
the little fancy things connected to it to know how
much you can afford to pay to stay in your budget,
to stay in your spending plan for you and your family.

Speaker 3 (32:20):
Some of us just want good cup holders, that's all.
I'm hey, you know what.

Speaker 6 (32:25):
I didn't want to, but I had to buy a
new car, my my baby, my favorite Bella. It was
diagnosed with a terminal disease, so I had to let
her go. So I had to get a replacement. I
call her Bella Junior. So when I was checking out
Bella Junior at the dealership, the guy was like, hey,
in showing me all the features everything, he says, and

(32:45):
it has a sunglass holder for your sunglasses. I was like, ah, sold, done.
I kept playing with.

Speaker 5 (32:54):
Things.

Speaker 6 (32:56):
I'm with you jillion yes.

Speaker 1 (33:00):
So say somebody has a medical debt that's been it's
been longer than six months, and you know they've already
sent it off to collections. What is a person's move then?
Should they you know, it's on their credit report? How
do they get it off their credit report? How do
they deal with it? What's the next what's the move there?

Speaker 6 (33:20):
Okay, so this I'm going to talk about the old number.
So as of July first, as of last week, it's
less than a week old. The three credit reporting agencies
have to they have to wipe off, remove and not
report any medical bill or debt that's been paid off

(33:43):
that's already in collections, that was in collections. They can't
report it anymore. Once you pay it off. It doesn't
stay on for seven years like other consumer debt. It
gets wiped off as soon as you pay it off.
The other thing is is that the facilities have to
wait now twelve months instead of six months before reporting
it to collections or selling it to collections. So that's

(34:07):
awesome news. I just wanted to remind us of you know,
this is something that's new.

Speaker 1 (34:12):
Yeah, I had no idea.

Speaker 6 (34:13):
Yeah, yeah, good stuff. Right. Yeah, So I'm so this
next thing to answer your question, Jen refers to prior
to any bills that came up before July one, twenty
twenty two, before last week. So what you would do
is you really want to call and make sure that
you owe that. Let me back up. If they call you,

(34:36):
when they call, you say hey you owe this, it's
in collections. You want to make sure you really owe it,
so they have to prove by law. There's a federal
law that's been in effect since the late seventies. It's
called the Fair Debt Practices Fair Debt Collection Practices Act
that says that if you get called by a debt collector,
they have to show send you documentation that you signed

(34:59):
for the service or product. So you're going to have
to You're going to have to go just og on them,
just old school and say, hey, look, I don't know
anything about that. You need to send that to me
in writing. Show me my signature where I agreed to
pay for this, that I received the service. Show me that.
So if they don't show you that, they don't send
it to you in writing, you don't know it. The

(35:20):
second thing is okay, so let's say they send it
to you and you owe it. There are credit repair
agencies that say, you know what, you're better off just
working with let me back up their consumer journalists and
folks that you have experience in doing this work in
consumer debt, say you know what, instead of paying it
off with the debt collector, just work with a credit

(35:45):
repair service business company because your credit has already been
deemed so they suggest, you know what, maybe you even
want to pay it off because it's already hit your report,
your credit report and being your credit number, your fi
GOO score. So some people suggest doing that. Others say,

(36:07):
you know what, work out a payment plan, you negotiate
with them, and you know they bought it for pennies,
so you know they're going to get a little bit
of something, and again a little bit of something is
better than nothing. If you found out you did, you
went through the steps, you found out you did owe it,
you really if you can, if you can, this is

(36:29):
more difficult to do to get the real bill with
your signature with CPT codes, that that's ideal. But if
they have a signature from you and it looks like, okay,
yes this documentation I signed for these medical these care services.

(36:51):
If you can, I go back to step three applying
the three steps again. If they can't give you CPT codes,
then you know with the you know the documentation that
they have that you think that you really do oh
you receive those services. Take it down step two. What
the services you receive? What prices Medicare pays for it,

(37:14):
or you can go up to two times Medicare rate.
If you're so inclined to start there with your step
three negotiation, say okay, I'm able to do this interest
free because they've already ding my credit interest free payment plan,
and it doesn't matter how long it takes. You stay
in your budget. Don't let them wipe out your Frankly,

(37:34):
you know Americans want to We love our nurses and
reappreciate our dots. You know, they save they can save
our lives, and we're grateful. But just because the facility
and or the providers saved your life doesn't mean that
you should destroy your financial life and give up your
life to pay them. Right, So don't give up your

(37:56):
don't compromise or risk your ability to get to work.
The roof over your head. So make sure you can
make your mortgage. You have a budget, your spending plan
that includes your budget, I mean your mortgage or your rent,
your car payment, your ability to get back and forth
to work. Medical bills come last. Frankly, You've got to

(38:17):
make sure that you stay with your ability to stay healthy.
And if you're financially stressed, you're going to You're not
going to stay healthy. So protect your ability to keep
a roof over your head. Your ability to get to
and from work. Pay those bills first, and then work
out something that you can cover those that medical debt
collections saying that you owe. But some people say, if

(38:41):
you've already got if it's already gone to collections, it's
already dinged your credit score. Consider that. I'm not an
expert in this, and I'm not suggesting one or another,
but some folks say, once it's gone to debt collectors,
consider working with a credit repair agency or a business company.

Speaker 1 (39:00):
Yeah, definitely, if you're going to go that route, make
sure it's a non not for profit like come.

Speaker 6 (39:04):
Yeah, oh that yeah, big De'll thank you for bringing
that up. That's that's important.

Speaker 1 (39:09):
So I've heard, and I've I've experienced getting like a
pay in full discount. Do you recommend the interest free
payment plan over possibly getting a pay in full discount
for either a bill or a debt.

Speaker 6 (39:23):
It's up to you once only only only only after
you've gone through the three steps. If you've done the
first two steps, sure you know whatever works for you.
So yeah, okay, I've done the three steps. First step,
I got the CPT codes described in the services that
I received. Number two, I took those codes and found
out what Medicare pays for those services, and so this

(39:46):
is a fair price. So you go to three. Okay,
this is why I'm willing to pay. So let's say
that I guess sent a bill and this is not unusual.
You've got sent a bill for ten thousand dollars, and
you worked out the numbers, you know, did the three steps,
the first two steps, and you googled up actually Medicare pays,

(40:08):
you know, three thousand dollars for these services. Well, you
call them back and you say, you know what, if
I pay you in full three thousand, will you take it?
This is what Medicare pays. Will you take it? If
you don't ask, you don't get. And then if you
believe that that's what you've done the research, meaning you

(40:30):
googled the CPT codes and what Medicare pays for them,
then and you believe that the actual fair number is
three thousand dollars, say look, this is all I'm willing
to pay. Take it or leave it, and you know
you'll give me a seventy percent discount if I pay
you in full?

Speaker 3 (40:45):
Now, yeah, for someone at that step two of comparing
to Medicare prices where can they go to find that information?
To go back to the car illustration? Is there like
a how is their blue book?

Speaker 6 (40:59):
Actually there is a healthcare blue book. You can start there,
but that the healthcare blue book looks at the prices
that are paid are charged and paid in that particular
region where you live. Medicare does a little bit of
tweaking based on regions, but not a whole lot. So

(41:19):
I usually tell people to go to healthcare dot Gov
is the big one where I tell people they can
start their search for the actual prices that Medicare pays
for certain services CPT codes services.

Speaker 3 (41:37):
Yeah, so that's where having that code comes in hand.
Toy that.

Speaker 6 (41:41):
So that's why step one call them.

Speaker 3 (41:43):
You know.

Speaker 6 (41:43):
The first step is easy, just a phone call. Yeah,
you know you're going to be on hold. You know, well,
you're in front of the TV. Just put the TV
on mute and a commercial and call, you know, just
and then watch and then when they come and they
pick up, you know, ten minutes later, fifteen twenty minutes later,
however it is, you can put your TV on you
and talk to them and say, I need a real

(42:04):
bill of CPT codes.

Speaker 3 (42:05):
Mm hmmmm, nice.

Speaker 1 (42:07):
Yeah, you know what else I need. Every week, it's
it's on the same level as this conversation.

Speaker 3 (42:15):
The bill of the week.

Speaker 2 (42:27):
That's right, it's time for the best minute of your
entire week. Maybe a baby was born and his name
is Williams.

Speaker 3 (42:35):
Maybe you've paid off.

Speaker 2 (42:36):
Your mortgage, maybe your car died, and you're happy to
not have to pay that bill anymore. Stuff bills, Buffalo bills,
Bill Clinton, this is the bill of the week.

Speaker 1 (42:47):
Doctor Virgie. Every week we invite our listeners and our
guests to share with us their bill of the week,
and we, as a billing expert, we are very excited
to hear what your bill is for the week.

Speaker 6 (43:05):
So my bill, actually I talk about it in my
book How to Crush Medical Debt, or I call it
just Crush Medical Debt. What your doctor wants you know,
how to crush medical debt, And I talk about it
because it is a subset a great example of what
we talked about at the beginning of our conversation, which
is surprise bills. So surprise bills, as I said, is

(43:29):
when you go to an in network provider and a
hospital facility, but they have out of network dots taking
care of you. Providing the service. Okay, so that's a
subset of balance billing. Balance billing is when you go
to an in network provider, meaning they accept your insurance,

(43:51):
and they send you a bill for the real I
call mrsp right, as we were talking about cars full
manufacture retail sticker price. They send you a bill for
the balance between what their retail their full price. I laugh,
so I don't cry, really, and they send you a
bill for the provider send you a bill for their

(44:12):
full price, even though they're a network of their provider.
So let's say that, just to keep the math simple,
say that I go get Care and the insurance pays
ten dollars for this particular CPT code, right, this particular service,
but the provider's full price is one hundred dollars. So

(44:37):
instead of saying, oh, we're a network, we've agreed to
accept whatever they pay for their members as payment in full,
we accept that ten dollars and it is what it is. Right,
they send you a bill for the balance, which is
ninety dollars.

Speaker 5 (44:52):
Right.

Speaker 6 (44:53):
That is balance billing. So the reason why that's important,
and we talked about the surprise billing is a is
a type of balance billing. The reason why that's important
is because if you can imagine, it's if it's just
you know, one hundred dollars or two hundred, and never
say never put just in front of the money. Right.
If it's just you know, one hundred, two hundred dollars, okay,

(45:16):
you know it's gonna you're not gonna be happy about it.
But if it's thousands of dollars for the services, that's
that'll put you in bankruptcy land debt land really quick. Right.
So anyway, so my medical bill mistake of the week
is I went to a hospital for emergency surgery and

(45:38):
I got a balance bill. They tried to balance bill me. Uh,
they said, my I always laugh. I really I laugh,
I don't cry. They sent me a bill six months
later that had one CPT code and the rest was
like general you know, so it wasn't a real bill
because it only had like one CPT code describing you know,

(46:00):
in patience, day, surgery, all this stuff. Right, So it's like, okay,
this is this is interesting, this is going to be
entertaining for me, So please send me a bill for
three hundred that said, well, our charge is for your
surgery and all this and the inpatience day is three
hundred and fifty one thousand dollars. But then you put

(46:22):
a second line in that said, this is quote unquote
insurance adjustments slash payments of like two hundred and sixty
thousand dollars or something, and then it says patient third line,
patient responsibility and up at the top, same number, patient

(46:43):
due you know, within like thirty days or something, you know,
lolo price of like almost ninety thousand dollars. Right, Oh
my gosh.

Speaker 1 (46:55):
So manageable, right, we just help you out.

Speaker 6 (46:57):
Yeah, exactly right. So I have to say, you know,
I was I was laughing because they didn't realize, you know,
they're putting one over on the author of what your
doctor wants you to know at a crush medical debt, right,
not for crush medal debt. And I was cracking up,
and I had to I was. I was working from
home that day, and I had to just let it.
I had to talk to someone. So I call my

(47:19):
best friend and I tell other story. I said, I
just got a balance bill for ninety thousand dollars from
this facility that was in network, that is in network
with my insurance, and I'm telling other story and just
cracking up laughing, and she finally says, you know, Virgie,
you're the only person I know who laughs when everybody

(47:40):
else would be curled up in the fetal position in
the corner crying. And you know, I tell this story
because it is a perfect example of why we have
to educate ourselves. We have to have medical financial literacy,
just basic three steps and it'll save you literally sometimes
one hundreds of thousands of dollars. If I'd gone back

(48:02):
and applied the three steps, I would have called the provider,
asked for cp real bill with CPT codes for everything,
and not just like I think they gave me a
CPT code for like the tissue they took during my
surgery and sent it to the lab. They sent me
a CPT code they broke it out with our services
and stay three hundred and fifty one, three hundred and

(48:28):
fifty thousand and nine hundred ALLA, and then CPT code
for lab service Pathology service forty four dollars. It was
just like that is rich?

Speaker 3 (48:43):
Is so?

Speaker 2 (48:43):
Yeah?

Speaker 6 (48:44):
If I'd applied all three steps to that, I would
have gotten a real bill, and then I would have
figured out that hey, when I've gotten the EOB for
my insurance that the number they were actually charging me,
that ninety thousand dollars was the same number that they
sent the insurance company to pay. The insurance companily paid
ninety thousand dollars, probably less, but you know, they figured

(49:07):
like nine times out of ten, it works. Wow, And
they were going to I was sent a bill for
ninety thousand dollars that I didn't owe, and they sent
the same claim, the same bill to my insurance company.

Speaker 3 (49:22):
So you didn't actually owe any of that.

Speaker 6 (49:24):
No, I owed nothing. So yeah, that's a great question.
So a year later, I was talking to my best
friend again about something and I said, you know, well, yeah,
that's why you know. I You know, I call myself
the lady that got out of paying the ninety thousand
dollars medical bill. And you can too. Let me show
you how. And she says, well, Virgie, by the way,

(49:46):
she says, you didn't pay that, right. I was like,
of course not. I told her I wasn't going to
pay that. And she says, well, are you sure like
it didn't get sent to collections? Maybe check your credit report,
your credit number, your five call score. I'm like, who
are you talking to Like what I was like, you're

(50:07):
you know, you're talking to the author of Crush Medical Debt, right,
I said, you know, dude, I just refine. Asked my
mortgage last month, my credit score, my fi Pal score
was They said it went down from the month prior.
It was now eight forty one. And I was like,
what I mean, I missed the snapshot. I got a

(50:29):
screenshot and sent it to her. But apparently the month
prior it was eight fifty. So I said, there's no
They didn't say, it's about that's what balance billing is.
It is. It's she's a lawyer. She won't let me
use the word contract fraud, but let's say it is.
It is not. It is not in contract. You're if

(50:54):
they when they send you a balanced bill. When they
send a balance bill, they the provider sent a balance
bill to members of insurance companies who they contracted with
to accept their insurance. Sending a balance bill is breach
of contract.

Speaker 3 (51:10):
Yeah, I mean recognizing that what is happening here with
medical billing is not always ethical, and sometimes we think
what's illegal is the same thing as unethical, and it's
not the same thing.

Speaker 6 (51:25):
You so much for saying that I tell folks this
all the time. Jillian. It's like, you know what, these
insurance companies and the providers know it's immoral and unethical,
but they also know it's not illegal.

Speaker 1 (51:43):
And they spend a lot of money every year making
sure it never becomes illegal. And it's your money they're spending.

Speaker 6 (51:51):
Exactly, lobbyist, you know, hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars. Yes, ma'am,
January hit it right.

Speaker 3 (51:58):
Thanks to doctor Vergie, we are one step closer to
being educated and armed with knowledge and we don't have
to pay that ninety thousand dollars medical bill. If you
all listening have a similar story to getting out of
a ninety thousand dollars bill, I mean, definitely call us
Frugal friendspodcast dot com slash bill. But if it's anything,

(52:21):
if it's a wrong bill, if it's a double bill,
it's a double bill that you like. Whatever it is,
the right bill, leave us your bill Forrugal friendspodcast dot
com slash bill. Now it's time for the lightning round.

Speaker 1 (52:34):
The lightning round, so we are playing this is a
little bit of wait, wait, don't tell me style. We're
talking about negotiating medical bills and debt. For the Lightning Round,
we want to know what's your best negotiation experience in general.
It can be medically related, but it doesn't have to

(52:54):
be so doctor Virgie, we will let you go first.
What was your best new negotiation?

Speaker 6 (53:01):
My best negotiation is probably then this. This has so
nothing to do with medical bills because I just described
My best negotiation is saying, no, I'm not paying any
of it. Yeah, this is very funny, this will this, Oh,

(53:21):
this will be a great story for my book. But no,
you're not getting a dime because you don't owe it.
Nice try, but no cigars. My brother used to say,
probably my best negotiation is being at a tax sale
a yard sale and getting they were giving away or
you know, selling a plant or something, and I was
just talking with them and gave them, you know, a

(53:43):
beautiful smile, and they just said, hey, just take it.
I was willing to pay twenty fifth. I would have
paid whatever. It was a gorgeous little plant kind of
you know, like a small tree kind of thing. And
they're like, oh, you know what, you've been here before.
They had a sale prior, a couple months prior, and

(54:03):
I bought something. They were like, you know what, just
take it doctor.

Speaker 3 (54:07):
I don't know that's negotiating. I think that just might
be the beautiful, the being beautiful discount that you got.
I don't know you.

Speaker 1 (54:18):
I would if I could smiling a discount, that would
be my favorite.

Speaker 6 (54:22):
I would my old mile you know, the twelve year
old virgie smile that wasn't so beautiful. Then yeah, I'd
have to come up with another negotiation. I think just
being kind so you.

Speaker 3 (54:33):
Can just negotiation necessary.

Speaker 6 (54:36):
Mind and with them and you know, creating relationships.

Speaker 1 (54:40):
So that is a pastic negotiation tip is be kind
and fred like befriend Sometimes.

Speaker 3 (54:49):
It doesn't even need to get to the combative stage.
You just flash a smile and walk home with a freaquent.

Speaker 6 (54:56):
So my my husband says that, He says, you know,
when you you're at tag sales and yard sales and
that kind of thing, you'll bundle it. You know, well,
I bought something already, can you throw in this? Or okay,
well how much is this? You already have a couple
of things in your hand, and we just did this
this past weekend, and he says, well will you do
I think it was like she wanted three dollars or

(55:18):
five dollars then something the third item, and he already
had two items in his hand that he didn't hadn't
asked her about the prices for, and he says, well,
will you take ten dollars for all three? Just like yeah,
So that's my negotiation tip. Be kind relationships and yeah bundle.

Speaker 3 (55:37):
What about for you, Jim, you love negotiating.

Speaker 1 (55:41):
Yes, I will say My biggest one has a little
bit to do with relationships. Also slightly stalking. Oh, you
be the judge. It was our first house and I
wanted that thing so bad, and our realtor at the
time very much helped us negoti But when we got

(56:02):
under contract, they still had an open house, and I
went to the open house and I like stocked it
and just made sure that nobody else wanted it. And
I talked with the flippers who were also the sellers,
and just found things we had in common. One of
them had went to school with my old boss, good

(56:24):
old Greg, and they and so I just made sure
that once the negotiation was like done, that I really
had it on lock. That was That was my favorite
negotiation experience, and it ended up being well, we had
no money. At the time, we were being kind of
forced out of our rental, so we had saved nothing,

(56:47):
so we had to figure out how to get the
house with little to no money.

Speaker 3 (56:51):
I mean, that's great when your best negotiation is on
your biggest asset, your biggest expense.

Speaker 1 (56:56):
Yeah. Yeah, and we thought we paid more, but we
actually made out really good being like two kids in
their twenties getting this like fully flipped house. So that
was that was my favorite, My favorite negotiation experience of Travis's.

(57:16):
And this is really the best story is that Travis
sat on the phone with Sprint for six hours one
time to end up with two free iPhones.

Speaker 3 (57:29):
Mm hmm, that's amazing.

Speaker 1 (57:30):
That was money. I was time well spent for the
money that was saved.

Speaker 3 (57:33):
Right, But who wants to sit on a phone for
six hours?

Speaker 6 (57:37):
Yeah? Yeah, hourly rate? How much are those two phones worth?
And divide sick into what is he so think about
his job when he gets paid, you know, break it down,
divide it up his annual salary, divide it monthly. Then
you can divide it into his HOURI rate, right, and
then you know, take that number, compare it to what

(57:57):
two iPhones together at least seven hundred dollars to make
the math easy, six hundred dollars, So six hundred dollars
he saved right or got product services were six hundred
dollars over six hours. That was one hundred dollars. He
made one hundred dollars an hour.

Speaker 3 (58:15):
Yep, yep.

Speaker 1 (58:17):
So it's crazy and he wouldn't want to do it again,
but it's it's a story. Probably I tell the most
about negotiating bills and stuff because he just I got home,
he was on the phone. I left for a girl's
night and came back. He was still on the phone.
It was an early girls night, Yeah it was.

Speaker 3 (58:37):
It was mom, I wasn't with you on that girl's night. No, no,
so yeah it was.

Speaker 1 (58:44):
Uh that was That's the best negotiation experience. It just
wasn't my experience.

Speaker 6 (58:49):
Wow, he learned from it, Jill. You learn at the
knee of the master. That's awesome.

Speaker 1 (58:55):
I do learn from the master.

Speaker 3 (58:57):
This was something for both Eric and I were living
in one hundred and seventy square feet a tiny little
trailer camper and working from home, like working remotely, So
you can imagine what that looked like for both of
us to be working in one hundred seventy square feet,
so we needed an office space, so we were looking

(59:18):
at rentals and ended up finding this amazing renovated barn
at a very reasonable rate for us to be able
to work there. Well. It was also on lots of
acreage and it looked like a perfect place to also
park our RV, so we negotiated for them to allow

(59:39):
us to park our RV on the property use the
barn the renovated barn for our co working space for
the same price that they were hoping to get out
of renting out the space, just like, well, you let
us also live there at no cost, and they did.
And you know what, doctor Virgie, it might have been

(01:00:00):
some extra smiles that got us that much, because.

Speaker 6 (01:00:05):
Really, your office space, so you throw it a place
for us to live too. There you go buy.

Speaker 3 (01:00:13):
It was bundling, and really they needed someone really specific
to be able to rent because they had young kids
who were playing in the driveway, so they didn't want
a company renting who was in and out of the
driveway a lot. We were really quiet, We kept to ourselves.
It's what allowed us to be able to afford the
office space and still live in the trailer, so that

(01:00:34):
was probably our best negotiation. Yeah, we'll rent this space
from you can We also live here in our RV
right next door. They were awesome, became friends, which was great.

Speaker 1 (01:00:47):
So oh I love it. I love these stories, Doctor Vigie,
thank you so much for joining us. Where can people
get more from you and get your fantastic book.

Speaker 6 (01:00:58):
I can go to Crush Medical Debt dot com and
on Thursdays on Voice America dot com at five pm
Eastern two pm Pacific, you can find me at the
Aska Doctor What your doctor wants you to know with
doctor Virgie show awesome.

Speaker 1 (01:01:15):
Yes, and definitely check out your book, Crush Medical Debt.
It's available Amazon and it's gonna help so many people
really escape this h this crushing medical debt. So thank
you again, doctor Virgie.

Speaker 6 (01:01:31):
Now, thank you so much for having me. It's been
so much fun talking with the ladies. I really appreciate
all you guys do.

Speaker 3 (01:01:37):
Bi gwise, Doctor Virgie, thanks for being here.

Speaker 1 (01:01:44):
I'm so glad that you got to hear that one
and again you you can get more from doctor Ellington's website,
Crush Medical Debt dot com. She has We've referred several
of our listeners to her that have had specific questions
in the past, and she's been so generous in answering those.

(01:02:07):
So crush medical debt dot com And yeah, I hope
it is definitely rough. I've recently been and we've both
this year been inundated with some medical bills that we
have had to navigate, and it is crushing.

Speaker 3 (01:02:28):
Yeah, But having had recorded this interview, I was much
more equipped to face some of those things. I think
we are better off if the medical things can be
scheduled like that was my circumstance. I had a surgery
this past year that I was able to see coming
and schedule and ask the questions ahead of time. You
face some things that were just emergency situations and now

(01:02:53):
you're receiving the bills afterwards. But in both scenarios, knowing
about asking for CPT codes and breaking down the costs
and comparing it to you know what those things are
supposed to cost.

Speaker 1 (01:03:06):
Being as annoying as possible has been my honest My
real takeaway is if you are not annoying, you don't
get hurt. And I don't. Yeah, I don't want to
be annoying. I want to assume that people are doing
the most for me, and they just can't. They don't
have the capacity to so to be as annoying as possible,

(01:03:29):
but with kind, not to make somebody intentionally not want
to help you.

Speaker 3 (01:03:32):
Out, and my strengths based perspective on that is just
being persistent.

Speaker 1 (01:03:36):
Yeah, well, we have different words for this to say thing.
Thank you so much for listening. We love, love, love
reading your kind reviews kind of like this one from
Lori T ten. It's titled Millennial and teacher Friendly happens
to be five stars. It says Jen and Jill have
done an incredible job of taking money topics and making

(01:03:57):
them understandable and applicable for any person of any income.
I am a teacher who has been struggling with payoff
and saving, and these girls take away the shame of
not being financially savvy and truly feel like I'm just
chatting with most non judgmental friends.

Speaker 3 (01:04:14):
I love that that's coming across. We're not out here
judging or telling you exactly how to do it, but
hopefully giving you the tools and resources to be able
to implement beneficial money decisions that make sense for you.
So thank you so much, lot, Lori t ten for
those words. If you all are listening and you've not
left words for us in the form of a rating

(01:04:36):
and review wherever you're listening, that'd be so so helpful.
Not only does it provide us more content for every
episode that we record because we read them during our episodes,
but it also helps other people find this podcast know
whether or not it's right for them. So thanks for
doing that.

Speaker 1 (01:04:54):
Yeah, and we will see you next time and next year,
let me see. We'll see you before, but we will
not see you before the holiday. So I hope you
have a fantastic holiday tomorrow. And if you've already had it,
I hope it was really.

Speaker 3 (01:05:14):
Special and you can make it even more special by
whatulovebook dot com.

Speaker 1 (01:05:20):
Google Friends is produced by Eric Sirianni.

Speaker 3 (01:05:33):
Okay, Jen, I had a medical event this week where,
first of all, I woke up at four fifty am.

Speaker 1 (01:05:46):
Oh gosh, yeah okay. I was like, oh, this is
worries someth.

Speaker 3 (01:05:50):
I went to exercise publicly, which you know me, this
is again Jill speaking. I don't do that. I exercise
in the privacy of my own home. I was really shocked.

Speaker 1 (01:06:03):
I was really shocked by this.

Speaker 3 (01:06:04):
Everyone's surprised surprise that I went and worked out. So
a friend invited me. It was a free class because
it was the first time that I was visiting and
she goes regularly. She's like, hey, you want to join me,
And for whatever reason, it was just like, yeah, you
know what, I want to try something new, different, I
want to do something that scares me. I did ask

(01:06:26):
her like is it going to be scary because it
is one of those kind of CrossFit adjacent type of gyms.
But I did it. I did something that scared me.
It worked out. No one was paying attention to me,
which is great, except for the trainer. A couple of
times she came out and she's like you good, yeah, yeah, yeah,
I'm good. I'm good. I'm just out of breath. And

(01:06:50):
so anyways, what I'm about to say really has nothing
to do with that. Well, but I will tell it
in So I get home. I get home at like
seven fifteen, it's still so the sun has just now
come up, and I'm like, awesome, so much more time
in the day for activities. I'm going to put the
dishes away. Well, a few days before I had made

(01:07:11):
sour dough bread and I do have a razor scorer,
a thing to score my sour dough bread with that's
very very sharp. And I was pulling out one utensil
and that one fell and sliced my fingy, my middle finger,
the one that I realized I used the most for
all sorts of stuff. That middle finger is putting in

(01:07:33):
some overtime. Sliced it real good, like it is a
it's a sharp razor, and I think it like went
to the bone thankfully, just like kind of on a
knuckle and not go to the bone on a knuckle.
I think it's bruised. It like was at the bone. Anyways,
Eric heard me. He came out and it was it
was a lot of gushing that was happening. But tried

(01:07:57):
to dry it up as quick as possible while it's
still actively bleeding. Super glued it together, because that's what
we do in the Syriani household. We have super glue
in our first aid kit. First slice ourselves. We slice
ourselves real good, and we're not trying to get ourselves

(01:08:18):
into a situation where we have to spend persistent time
negotiating medical bill is.

Speaker 1 (01:08:22):
Did you put super glue in your first aid kit?
Because of the dishwashing incident when you were renovating that house.

Speaker 2 (01:08:29):
Mm hmm.

Speaker 3 (01:08:30):
Eric had used super glue before too, so this was
just like this your fingers, Yeah, it's on that same hand.
Can you see the.

Speaker 1 (01:08:41):
Scars, h your poor fingers.

Speaker 3 (01:08:44):
My thangees. Yeah, they're gonna look a little gnarly because
we just do our own stitching with with glue.

Speaker 1 (01:08:49):
They're great though, but they're fantastic.

Speaker 3 (01:08:52):
I so my takeaway, here's how I'm tying it in.
I shouldn't have been up so.

Speaker 1 (01:08:55):
Early, well, agreed. I did a six am class once
and I did crossbit and I was doing a push press.
I had a barbell over my head and I brought
it back down and no, no, no, it was when
I was lifting it up. Oh, I totally like caught
my chin and I started bleeding, like I bled.

Speaker 3 (01:09:18):
Bleeding from your chin from the bottom. Could you also
like bite a lip or a tongue?

Speaker 5 (01:09:23):
One?

Speaker 1 (01:09:23):
No, not that, but I and I also brought it
down on my head with the same motion. I don't remember,
but I just remember after I brought it down on
my head, I was like, never again. And I have
never worked out at six am.

Speaker 3 (01:09:42):
Okay, see I didn't do barbells, and my friend who
goes there, she was even like CrossFit traumatized me on
the barbell I'm only doing dumb bells. And I was
just following suit. I'm like, if the barbell's not for you,
it's not for me.

Speaker 1 (01:09:56):
I will use barbells like I still use barbells. I
love barbells. That's fine. I just don't use them before
the sun comes up. That's a rule now that I have.
The only time I will be working out before the
sun comes up is if I'm doing a Disney race.
That's it. Like even when I ask you to run,
it's free and it's in six at six thirty in

(01:10:18):
the evening. I just invited you to one that have
free cookies.

Speaker 3 (01:10:21):
Are you going to that? Yeah?

Speaker 1 (01:10:23):
Probably?

Speaker 3 (01:10:24):
When is it again?

Speaker 1 (01:10:25):
I don't remember, but fourteen there are cookies and you
still always say no.

Speaker 3 (01:10:30):
I might do a mile. I might take you up
on the invitation. I could do a mile.

Speaker 1 (01:10:36):
You could even do You could even push the stroller
if you don't want to run.

Speaker 3 (01:10:39):
Who's in the stroller at listen?

Speaker 1 (01:10:41):
Kai?

Speaker 3 (01:10:42):
Oh? They would be like there, yeah, okay, where are.

Speaker 1 (01:10:45):
We going to take them?

Speaker 3 (01:10:47):
I don't know I'm not thinking through the logistics of
how you're going to join a cookie run.

Speaker 1 (01:10:57):
I don't know.

Speaker 3 (01:10:57):
Do you normally like push your kids on like five
k's and marathons and stuff.

Speaker 1 (01:11:03):
Well, not marathons, but like a cookie run at the
running company.

Speaker 3 (01:11:07):
Yeah, we did it.

Speaker 1 (01:11:08):
We took him to the Turkey Trot on Thanksgiving.

Speaker 3 (01:11:10):
Do you think Travis is going to do the run
with you?

Speaker 1 (01:11:13):
I don't know. He's having a thing with his ear.
This is a little too much.

Speaker 3 (01:11:16):
Information for the podcast. We are talking medical stuff. Chens.

Speaker 1 (01:11:20):
Yeah, I don't know. He's got like a clicking in
his ear, so he's been walking, but I don't know.
He would love to not push a stroller. We would
love I mean, you were talking about your friend Adam
and I don't even know him, and we were talking
about giving our kids to him.

Speaker 3 (01:11:33):
It sounds like it'd be more work to run a
mile while pushing a stroller. Is that not true? Ye
find out. It's your responsibility to find out.

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Negotiating Medical Bills with Dr. Virgie Bright Ellington

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