February 12, 2025 • 43 mins
In this episode of Full Circle, Lexie and Mariah sit down with Terri Jackson, the Executive Director of the Women's National Basketball Players Association. They dive into Terri’s journey with the player's union, how she prepared for this role, the trials and tribulations of CBA negotiations, and why backing player moms and retirees is a must. The three break down the top priorities for players heading into CBA discussions, the misconceptions surrounding new leagues like AU and Unrivaled, and what the WNBA could look like in the next decade. Tune in next week to hear more basketball by the girls, for the girls.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Full Circle is an iheartwoman's sports production in partnership with
Deep Blue Sports and Entertainment. You can find us on
the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, y'all,
welcome back to another episode of Full Circle. I am
so excited today we have a very special guest and
I'm going to kick it to Lexi to do the intro.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Hey, y'all, welcome back to our show. I hope you
guys have been enjoying it so far. I'm so excited
to introduce our very first guests of this season. She
really needs no introduction, but I'm gonna guess her up
a little bit because she deserves one. We have Terry
Jackson in the building with us. Terry is the current
executive director of the Women's National Basketball Players Association. She
(00:46):
joined the WNBPA after four years with the NCAA. She
has also taught courses on women's in sports at American University,
Trinity University, and Tulane University. She earned her You're a
Doctor from Georgetown University Law Center and her Bachelor of
Arts from Georgetown University. And she is the proud mama
(01:07):
bear of Jaron Jackson Junior, who plays for the Memphis Chrizzlies.
Speaker 3 (01:11):
Welcome Terry, Welcome.
Speaker 4 (01:13):
Thank you ladies. Yes, all of that, and thanks for
the problem at the end.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
Yes, Oh my gosh, I'm so happy that you're here.
I remember I asked you weeks ago to be one
of my first guests and you said yes immediately, which
is why I love you so much.
Speaker 3 (01:30):
And I'm just so happy and excited that you're here.
Speaker 4 (01:32):
Well, I'm happy and excited that you are doing this.
I'm happy and excited to be the first, and of
course I said yes. Of course I said yes. Oh
my god.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
I'm so excited because I feel like people see your
name attached to all these monumental things that we're doing
in the WNBA, but they don't really know who Terry is.
And I think that this episode, we want people, our
listeners to get to know you a little bit more,
because there is no us without you, like absolutely not.
Speaker 4 (02:01):
Aw thank you for that. Yeah, let's peel out the
layers a little bit.
Speaker 3 (02:06):
Yes, let's get into it.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
How long have you been with the Players Association and
what made you want to get involved.
Speaker 4 (02:11):
With the Oh love this question. Love this question because
twenty twenty four marked my ninth season, LEXI, my ninth
season with the league. And so when I say that,
the staff team here says, start claiming twenty twenty five,
and they're right right, Like, I'm headed into my tenth
(02:32):
season serving the most amazing professional athletes on the planet,
the badass women of the w LEXI included, Yeah, this
is an amazing job. And I got here because I
read an email, like that's the short answer to the question.
(02:53):
I was at the NCAA. I was working for the
best boss in the building, the chief legal officer. At
the time. I was kind of like his chief of staff.
And then I got this email and I'm in the
middle of NCAA convention and I'm like, I don't have
time to read this. And a friend of mine she said,
did you read that email? And I said, no, I
don't have time. She said, no, read the email. I
(03:15):
start reading the email. I click on the attachment. It's
a job notice for this position, and I'm like, okay,
I got to call you back. And that's how I
learned about the opportunity. And from there it was like
preparing for war, like I wanted this job, though seriously,
(03:36):
I want it working out, preparing, working out twice a day,
reading everything I could read, texting everybody I knew, saying
do you know anybody? Because I want this job? Do
you know anybody? Like? Put a good word in that?
Really is that's a prepare for war.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
You guys might think she's joking, But every time we
get off of a call with Terry about the CBA,
which we'll get into in a minute.
Speaker 3 (03:58):
She's literally like, buckle up, prepare for war.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
Like that's how passionate she is about that, and that's
why she is who she is, and that's where the
league is where it's at now.
Speaker 3 (04:07):
But like y'all, she's not joking.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
Well, I'm curious, Terry, because a lot of my audience
is new to being a fan of the W, which
is so incredible that there's so many new fans.
Speaker 4 (04:19):
Thank you for the news.
Speaker 1 (04:21):
A lot of people know what Lexi does and what
the players do on the court. But could you describe
for people who are new to being a fan of
the W what you do?
Speaker 4 (04:29):
Wow? Yeah, could I describe it? I don't know if
I could describe it, honestly, being the executive director, let
me start first and foremost means that as leads staff
for the union of the first Union for professional women athletes,
means I report to the players. Heart stop, everybody understand
what that means. We have a governance structure that's really
(04:51):
quite easy. We have a board of player representatives, two
player representatives from each of the teams. We have an
executive committe. They are large and in charge of this union.
I report to them. That's the way it goes. And
so the vision that they have for this union, the
agenda they look to set as staff, I look to
(05:15):
execute and implement it. So it's a lot about monitoring
the CBA and ensuring that we're holding the team and
the leagues accountable to the things that we've negotiated, getting
the players paid and paid on time, talking about the
drug policy, housing, how they travel, making sure that their
(05:35):
working conditions are safe. That's the CBA, that's the collective
Bargaining Agreement. That's what we're largely responsible for monitoring. They're
also a group licensing rights that we get to monetize
and produce additional revenue for this union, but for the
players directly. There's so many parts to this job, and
(05:56):
you know, as a lawyer, I couldn't have a better
job in the world than doing what I get to do,
making a difference every single day, making it.
Speaker 3 (06:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:07):
Yeah, Well, you've basically explained a simple way of what
the CBA is. And I remember the last CBA that
we negotiated. I was only in my second season, so
I was young. I had no idea what was going on.
I was just listening to veterans and they're like, this
is what we're doing, this is what we need to do,
and I was just.
Speaker 3 (06:26):
Like, okay, okay, okay.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
Fast forward four years later, we're opting out, which I
think we all knew was going to happen. What do
you think is like the biggest difference between that negotiation
period and this.
Speaker 4 (06:40):
Ooh great question. First of all, I didn't assume that
the players were opting out. I know everybody else decided
that the players were going to opt out. Of course
they were going to opt out. I wasn't there because
we had to do the work right. We had to
understand the business. We had to review the financials, We
had to understand the CBA. We were in now, the
twenty twenty CBA, what was that going to look like
(07:03):
over the long term. We had to assemble a group
of badass experts to do the crystal ball thing and
predict were the players going to start gaining, were they
going to start realizing the success that they are contributing to.
And so we had to do all that and understand
how to advise the players and help them. Also understand
(07:23):
that this negotiation was going to look very different from
before that there was going to be a fight this time,
and everybody had to be aware of that. Last time,
we were looking to fix so many things. It was salary,
it was compensation, it was player health and safety, it
was the player experience, and we did so much. I'm
(07:45):
proud of the twenty twenty CBA. With the system that
we had, we made significant gains. Players aren't sharing hotel
rooms anymore. We're supporting player moms in a big way.
There were more dollars, but there were limited dollars that
were coming in. We had to kind of rebuild this
system and show the league that marketing w players was
(08:07):
key and how to do that and do the storytelling
in a way that resonated with fans and that would
drive commerce and all the metrics. So we did that,
and so here we are having done that groundwork here,
we are seeing the business thriving year over year, and
so now we're in a position where there are real
(08:29):
dollars flowing through here, and so we have to talk
about the business model again. Is there an opportunity to
do another shift, another change and make sure that the
players are valued again for their contributions on and off
the court because they are the W.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
What's an area that you feel like going into this
next round you are really focused on honing it on
because I know you said last time you were focused
on just overall player safety, players being happier. But now
with all of these new eyes and some of these
new dollars that you were referring to, what is the
huge area that you think needs to be focused.
Speaker 2 (09:10):
I want Mariah to answer that because she has a difference.
Speaker 4 (09:13):
Maybe she does what has everybody seemingly been laser focused on,
and maybe there's a top two or top three. So
name one of the things you think, Mariah.
Speaker 1 (09:25):
The biggest thing I hear about. Number one is travel.
Obviously I heard that the W is now chartering flights,
but then there was reports that it wasn't for every
single team, And then I would say the second thing
would just be facilities, like being pretty equal across the board,
because it's like some teams have these incredible expensive facilities
(09:48):
and then some teams don't have practice facilities. And then
the third thing I would say is.
Speaker 4 (09:52):
Pay Okay, we're done. You named them as one, two, three.
I know you didn't actually do them in any order.
It's not actually you were gonna say pay first, because
that's what we really hear a lot about. There's so
many comparisons across s boards that help or don't help
advance the conversation. Charter travel, I know, is a big one,
and I think the league LEXI, you tell me if
(10:14):
you agree with this. I think the league helped itself.
The commissioner helped herself and helped the league in the
teams by announcing last year at the beginning of the
season that there was going to be charter travel and
it was charter for all. To answer that question, Mariah
Charter for All. She had been phasing it in the postseason,
but had announced it for the whole season, from the
(10:35):
regular season through the end of the postseason. That was great.
She announced it for twenty twenty four, and she announced
it for twenty twenty five. Really no problem there. The
only question or concern that we have is are we
going to write that down? Because the announcement of it
is great. It's not in the CBA right now. Of
course we've opted out of the CBA, so there's opportunity
to put it in there. So we need it in writing.
(10:57):
It's the lawyer in me and the players under they've
got contracts. They read their contracts. They know that if
it's in the contract, then they're getting it. So we've
got to get it in the contract. With respect to
charter travel facilities, I think you've seen an arms race
almost right when it comes to the teams and the facilities.
(11:17):
They are finally stepping up in a big way that
is about player health and safety. Quite frankly proud to
see lots of teams taking great, big strides. Hopeful that
we won't have teams holding back the rest of the league.
Everybody needs to make big strides when it comes to facilities.
And then yes, of course we're going to talk about salary.
(11:40):
We're going to talk about salary separate from compensation. Salary
is what you get paid for doing the job that
you are contracted for, and salary demonstrates your worth, demonstrates
your value, and we've got to put a spotlight on that.
And to your new fans, thank you again for joining
and being a part of our fight and being part
(12:02):
of this advocacy and part of the fandom. What we
need you to understand is these three things are big.
When the players opted out, they said that this is
what opt out is about. They were very clear on that,
and they said it's about doing business, and so that's
what we're here to do business.
Speaker 3 (12:20):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (12:20):
I think the one thing that I would add from
a player's perspective, which is something that I personally in
the last round of negotiations, since I was so young,
never really thought about, was the benefits for retired players.
And I feel like that has come up recently in
our conversations about the CBA amongst us as teams, and
(12:43):
these past few years, I've gotten really close with Cheryl Swoops,
so I've really gotten a different insight onto life as
a WNBA player and a retired WNBA player and how
she quite literally was kicked to the curb once her
time in the WNBA was done. And I think think
now we as this younger generation, you know, taking the
(13:05):
responsibility of giving the players that built this amazing league
their flowers and protection and the support that they need
post career. You know, I've seen our conversations obviously, I've
been in those rooms. Where would you rank that as priority,
you know, in comparison to salaries to travel to the facility.
Speaker 4 (13:22):
First of all, let's tell the listeners why you're in
the room and why you've heard those conversations, Because you've
gone from being a young player looking up to the
vets and connecting with them and listening to them and understanding,
to now stepping into your own power and claiming the
opportunity to be part of leadership. So Lexi is part
(13:44):
of that high discovering body in our union. She's a
member of the Board of Player Representatives. And that's right, Yeah,
we made it.
Speaker 3 (13:52):
We made it.
Speaker 2 (13:52):
I had to survive long enough, and I did. And
I'm like, okay, now let me hoppy.
Speaker 4 (13:57):
Yes, And I was always throw this lead Lexi that
you you would recognize and step into that power and
be a part of these conversations at this high level.
And yes, you do know what's taking place and how
folks are talking about it, how players have been talking
about it. In our meetings, but how they've also been
connecting with veterans and retired players and understanding the need
(14:20):
to think about this CBA in a more holistic way.
And there are so many priorities that are top priorities.
And I think we've heard how can we support retired
players or players who are retiring, How can we be
creative in what we do for them? What can that
look like now or based in over time? I don't know,
(14:43):
what do you think? What do you think it's up there?
Isn't it?
Speaker 2 (14:45):
I mean, yeah, And I think it's really because for
the first time, these older players are coming back around
the W in or a really positive way. They're getting involved,
they're getting to know us, they're teaching us th And
I feel like in my early career I didn't really
see very many retired players around.
Speaker 3 (15:06):
I grew up watching.
Speaker 2 (15:07):
The W My dad coached in the W, Like, I
don't know where any of his players are, Like, I
never kept in contact with them, and I'll take ownership
of that.
Speaker 3 (15:15):
But again, I was just the child, you know.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
But I think with the growth of social media in
general has allowed all of us become more connected, which
I think, you know, even though we say there's like
a lot of negatives about social media and all this
constant contact. I think that's been really important to us
as a league. And again, like mentioning Cheryl, like I
never in a million years thought that I would have
a relationship with.
Speaker 4 (15:37):
Cheryl Swoops, And it was so easy.
Speaker 2 (15:39):
Right, yes, and it was so genuine, and she's been great,
and I'm just glad that, you know, we're able to
give her her flowers, show her love, and that she's
back on the forefront of the w like she's literally
one of one of one of our greats, right and
now she's finally being treated like one.
Speaker 4 (15:56):
Janapel Marinelli also retired player. So when I was interviewing
for this job and my first season or two, I
was reporting to Jane and other players. She was part
of player leadership. Jane retired soon thereafter and joined us,
joined our staff at the Union. She's mission focused on
retired players, and so I really give credit to her
(16:18):
and the rest of the staff team for how we
have looked to rebuild that bridge between the current players,
the union and retired players. Of course, they have their
own Retired Players Association, but it's something meaningful to be
a part of that alumni group and for us to
recognize them as that alumni group and all the wisdom
(16:39):
and all the experience and all the stories that they have,
And that was key to us working with Cheryl in
Shattered Class in the documentary that is still streaming free
on two Be by the way, shameless plug, because you
don't move forward without remembering where you've come from and
all the advances, and so their important part again, who
(17:00):
we are, our identity and our future.
Speaker 1 (17:10):
I wonder because you alluded to this a bit when
you said people make comparisons that are sometimes helpful and
sometimes not helpful at all. As a mama bear to
an NBA player and also as the collective mama bear
to the w I'm curious when you see those comparisons,
if you could rewrite the narrative, what would you want
(17:31):
people to know about women's basketball separate from those comparisons
people are always trying to make.
Speaker 4 (17:36):
I answered that question when I interviewed for this job,
and quite frankly, I think it's why the players in
leadership at that time chose me. They asked me, you know,
the typical interview question that you get at the end
and I was prepared for all of them. When I
said preparing for war, I was like writing out all
my answers, thinking about them, like living, breathing them. And
(17:59):
then you get the question that you know you're going
to get at the end, where do you see yourself?
Where do you see this union in five to ten years?
And I had an answer ready, and I probably still
have those little index cards I could find out. I
don't remember my answer, but during the course of the interview,
there were so many references, Well, in the NBA and
the NBA guys have this, and at the NBPA the
Brother Union, this is what they do. There was so
(18:21):
much comparison. It was about to make my head explode.
I was like, wait, why are we doing this?
Speaker 2 (18:26):
Wait?
Speaker 4 (18:26):
Where am I? I'm in this interview for the WNBPA
to talk about WNBA players and why are we still
talking about the NBA guys and what they had. When
they asked me the question where do I see myself?
Where do I see this union in five to ten years?
I had to decide in a split second was I
going with my prepared answer or was I going to
(18:48):
address what was the moment right there? And I pivoted
and I don't usually do that, but I pivoted and
I said, in five to ten years, we are going
to recognize our game and our identity for what it is.
We are going to recognize that we are different, and
we are going to stop comparing ourselves to the NBA
(19:11):
guys and to the NBA game because our game is different.
Who we are is different, and we need to celebrate
that different doesn't mean lesser than it just simply means different.
That's it. And so what I want to see and
what I want us to do is build brand relationships
based on who we are, not based on what they
(19:33):
are or what they have. But what I do think
and what I think is helpful to me in this
role is being that mama bear of an NBA player
who happens to be in leadership at his brother union. Right.
It gives me a vision to see what they have,
to see what they're doing, how they're maneuvering, how they're operating,
what they have what we don't have, but to see
(19:55):
how we can do it for ourselves in a way
that's true and authentic to who we are. Not to
play this. We got to catch up with the Joneses
before the twenty twenty CBA. We kind of had their
CBA that didn't work for us. It was kind of
a bad cutting pace job of the NBA, NVPA CBA
that wasn't working for us. That doesn't work for professional
(20:17):
women athletes. And so that's what I told them. I said,
we're going to value who we are. We're gonna value
being different. We're gonna build something different, and we're going
to wait and let people come to us. And where
are we right now? Women's sports is the new it girl, right.
Everybody wants to be our friend, everybody wants to be
(20:37):
our partner, work with us, support us, and we welcome that.
The W is the W. It's not trying to be
the n We're the Wright period.
Speaker 2 (20:48):
And now I'll stay on the topic of comparison. Yeah,
you know, I didn't think that there would be another
women's basketball league that we could ever compare the W two.
You look at leagues like athletes, unlimited, like unrivaled.
Speaker 4 (21:03):
I'm a big fan.
Speaker 2 (21:04):
From your perspective in our negotiations, Does this provide the
players more leverage or is it going to be problematic
in your opinion, because honestly, I'm not sure because I'm
seeing the conversations online about unrival is just going to
take over, like there's just going to be no more W.
(21:24):
Like again, these conversations and opinions that people are throwing
out are just coming out of thin air.
Speaker 3 (21:30):
So I would love for you.
Speaker 2 (21:31):
To educate us on what having these off season leagues
means to us and negotiations, and then also like what
that means.
Speaker 3 (21:41):
For the W like moving forward.
Speaker 4 (21:43):
These are leagues that operate during the off season of
the WNBA Ding Ding Ding. That's a win. That's huge,
And already they're showing that they're not looking to compete
with the W. They have found that sweet spot of
a time to op rate during the off season and
before the college tournaments really kick off right or before
(22:06):
March Madness, and so they are flourishing, and they're giving
young women athletes in the wor or looking to be
in the W. They're giving them opportunities to work on
their game to develop their gain here in the United States.
That's got to be a win. That's what I think
is special about both of them, particularly the timing and
(22:27):
the opportunity that they give, and that there's compensation tie
to each of them. So players playing with Athletes Unlimited
are getting paid. Players playing with Unrivaled or getting paid.
And I think the Unrivaled model is also significant in
that this is started by players. That's what I like
about Athletes Unlimited too.
Speaker 3 (22:46):
Right, Yeah, we're in charge.
Speaker 2 (22:47):
We aren't founders like in Unrivaled, but we are in
like leadership positions.
Speaker 4 (22:52):
Well, Unrivaled has taken the model in kind of another direction, right,
So players are in charge, but players have founded this.
Players have an EQUI stake. I mean, when you look
at sports, you look at the landscape, it is shifting constantly,
and women's sports is right there with it. I love
what's happening with AU. I love what's happening and Unrivaled.
(23:14):
I love the narratives that are coming out. The fact
that the average salary and Unrivaled is two hundred and
twenty thousand dollars. I'm paying attention. I hope the league
and the teams are too. I mean that's a statement move.
Like I said, there's equity. I think it's an extraordinary
move that their games are televised. That's huge. I think
(23:35):
Unrivaled and I think AU are augmenting what the w
has and continuing to make women's basketball at this professional
level not only relevant, but accessible and exciting to the fans.
I see honestly nothing but positives coming from it. And
(23:56):
if we're smart on the union player side of the house,
we use it as leverage. And if the league and
teams are smart, they're paying attention to because there are
lessons to be learned. There should not be any hard
feelings here. We should all be pulling in the same
direction to support, to support what's happening here, because as
(24:20):
you all say all the time, this is more than
a moment, right, It is definitely a movement and it's exciting.
Speaker 3 (24:27):
Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:29):
And then for both of you, I think on an
outside looking in perspective, even with unrivaled in AU and
with this growth the WNBA is experiencing, I think a
lot of people reach for comparisons or even saying things
like giving credit to younger players coming in while saying
that the league isn't trying to embrace them, or there's
(24:49):
hating going on or whatever. As two people who are
like actually super involved in the league, what are you
noticing as far as player relationships in this new era
and people welcoming in these new players and what is
that looking like actually from the inside.
Speaker 4 (25:07):
So I love that you asked this, Mariah, because all
that commentary on social media and in traditional media about
the hate and the non support, like, honestly, that makes
us laugh. Do the players compete like heck and want
to win? Are they fierce competitors on the court. Absolutely,
(25:27):
But at the end of the day, we are a
union and we understand what it means to support each
other off the court too. We have to because we're
one of the smaller unions. We don't have a lot
of resources like those other unions do. We got to
rely on the collective voice and we got to link
arms and be together. So does that mean that Lexi
(25:48):
and whomever you want to go out there and beat
the Seattle Storm with with Neka Gumk and Skyler Diggain Smith. Yes,
they want to beat their butts. Absolutely, and we all
understand that as fans like that's the kind of level
of competition we want to see. But off the court,
do they respect what Lexi's doing and how she's moving?
(26:09):
Do they respect Meca as their president? Absolutely? So to
those of you who want to say there's jealousy and
they don't like each other and they don't support each other.
Speaker 3 (26:20):
All right, wrap it up.
Speaker 4 (26:23):
That's old. How many games do you go to if
that's what you're saying, Come to a game, check them out,
and then see how we are moving as a union
because we couldn't get it done if that narrative was
the truth.
Speaker 2 (26:35):
Absolutely, to add on to that, we're going to see
a different w because so many of us are able
to stay home in the off season. Can you imagine
being on a team or working in an office and
you don't see or speak to each other for six
months because y'all are all in different countries making a living,
and then you have to just reconvene when training camps start.
Speaker 3 (26:57):
That's a great point. That's basically been the real of
the WNBA.
Speaker 2 (27:01):
And now y'all see what's going on in Miami, all
of the Tampa.
Speaker 1 (27:06):
My next question and tampering.
Speaker 3 (27:08):
Quote unquote going on down there, and how much.
Speaker 4 (27:10):
There's there's not tampering, there's just coffees.
Speaker 3 (27:13):
No, there is no coffees and tiktoks.
Speaker 2 (27:16):
You're gonna see the same camaraderie in Au coming up
this week when we start playing like these are the
relationships that have always existed, but nobody has really been
able to see them because they've just been private because
everyone's been so spaced out all the time. So for me,
seeing more players being able to stay stateside to play,
(27:37):
to follow different career paths, marketing stuff, brand stuff, that's
one of the biggest difference I've seen and why this
league has been able to move forward so much quicker
than we've ever seen is because we are all able
to just be here and be present here together.
Speaker 4 (27:53):
Agreed, that's a great point.
Speaker 1 (27:55):
I never thought about that. It's not that the relationships
weren't there, we didn't really get to see them because
you were physically apart. And now I feel like that'll
improve the overall just like health and level of competition too,
because you're not having to do all of that traveling
and live somewhere else physically and then come back here
and have to get used to your teammates and time
changes and all of that stuff.
Speaker 3 (28:15):
And I was insane. It's insane.
Speaker 2 (28:17):
And then on top of that, you are coming from
overseas straight to training camp. You don't really have that
time to breathe, and it was just like just a
non stop constant and you never really got to just
sit back and be like, how can I build a
relationship with my teammates? How can I help this league grow?
Because I'm just moving non stop. So I'm really grateful
(28:39):
that this is all happening. I'm grateful that I'm still
in the league to experience it, witness it, be a
part of it.
Speaker 3 (28:45):
Because Terry knows.
Speaker 2 (28:47):
There was moments where I was like, can I come
work with you?
Speaker 4 (28:51):
Everybody had these movements. It's a tough lead. Think about it,
before expansions, one hundred and forty four jobs. Now there's
one hundred and fifty six. We're still swalln mighty. But
this is the toughest league to make. Do the math,
only one hundred and fifty six jobs. You've got to
be elite. You've got to be cream of the cream, right,
(29:15):
you got to be at the top. You've got to
be at the top.
Speaker 2 (29:18):
And thirty six new people coming in every year that's
just drafted. So you don't only have to make it
you get make it.
Speaker 4 (29:26):
You got to keep it. You got to sustain that
level of talent and performance.
Speaker 1 (29:32):
What about the WNBA's moms because obviously with women performing
at the highest level as athletes. That also poses a
unique challenge for women, you know, having children. And I
saw that the Fever's new facility is supposed to have
daycare and whatnot. But what are some things in your
(29:52):
job and your roletary that you feel like need to
be recognized as far as women you know who are
having children and still are performing at the t level.
Speaker 4 (30:00):
When I first got this job, I remember during the
interview process, you know, reading the CBA, and I said, wait,
what happens when they're pregnant. I didn't remember reading that
in the CBA, And so I go back to the
CBA and I'm looking at I'm like, Okay, we don't
really talk about that. That's crazy. The only thing you
really see in that old CBA was players have to
disclose and players only get paid half their salary. And
(30:24):
I was like, oh my god, who agreed to that?
And why we've got to fix that. I also thought about,
you know, when I was a young mom and my
son's dad was playing in the NBA at the time,
I'd walk into the arena and somebody would scoop him
up and take him to the family room and he
could play with the other kids. He would be fed
(30:45):
if he wanted to sleep, or he could come hang
out in the seats with me and watch the game.
And so I'd go in my new job as head
of this union and I'd say, Okay, where's the family room?
And people would look at me like I was crazy.
I was like, wait a second. The guys had this.
Now I'm comparing. Right, the guys had this, and we
don't do this for professional women athletes. Okay, we got
(31:06):
to fix that. I thought there were so many opportunities
that we had to demonstrate how we could support women
who wanted to start a family or who had a
family and maintain playing in the W. And this twenty
twenty CBA, when Lexi and I talk about, it's good.
It did a lot of things. It helped fix that.
(31:26):
And we saw more players who were moms or starting
their families than ever before. And we've got to continue
that because that's really important. We want young women who
are in high school getting ready to go to college
thinking about aspiring to be a W player to say
I can do that and I can have it all,
(31:46):
just like working women in any industry across this country,
across the globe are saying, how can I have it
all we can do that. It can't be a challenge.
It should not be a challenge a hindrance, right, It
should be something that we do and that we celebrate.
And I am celebrating the fact that we see more
(32:08):
player parents in the w than we have in decades,
and we have probably ever in its history, and it's
because of this twenty twenty CBA. But we opted out
of this one, and I think we have to do
even better.
Speaker 2 (32:23):
Yeah, and I've heard and I've seen player mothers still
in twenty twenty four having grievances with how they handle
them as moms, and it is one of the reasons
why we saw so much movement in the free agency
from some mothers was literally like there was no type
of childcare in place like we were promised, So we
(32:45):
got to go somewhere that there is one.
Speaker 3 (32:47):
And I think that's so important.
Speaker 2 (32:49):
You know, for me, I don't have any kids, but
you know, five years ago, I was like, am I
gonna be able to have kids and play and be
comfortable and be embraced and yeah, and now the answer
is yes, I agree with you.
Speaker 3 (33:01):
We do still have a lot of work to do.
Speaker 2 (33:03):
One of the things I love about you is like
your candidness and openness. And when I was doing some
reading prior to this, I was seeing the NWSL they
just had their renegotiation period and they talked about how
they kept theirs very close to their chest and didn't
really have people or the media or the outside have
(33:24):
any type of insight into what they were doing.
Speaker 3 (33:27):
Where obviously the complete opposite of that.
Speaker 2 (33:30):
What benefits do you see of us being so candid
and open with so many people about what we're trying
to achieve in our CVR.
Speaker 4 (33:38):
Well, I think there's a balance there. Hopefully you feel
that this conversation with you and Mariah is candid and
open and with your listeners, because that's what I always
look to be. But I don't look to negotiate in
the press. I look to negotiate in the war room,
right in the conference room. That's where we do the work,
and we do ourselves a favor by maintaining that kind
(34:00):
of strategy and approach. Will we talk big picture about
what new can look like? Absolutely, that's part of this
candid conversation, and I think the players do themselves a
service a great service to say this is what's on
our minds. The women of the W With all due
respect to our colleagues in soccer, but in the W
(34:23):
we lead, we really do. We know all eyes are
on us, and so we've got to do the work
and get it right and get this CBA to respond
to who we are, to who you are as players,
as professional women athletes, to ensure your value, to ensure
your rights, to ensure you're safe, to ensure that you
are able to play at that high level. Sure, I
(34:46):
will talk about that in terms of broad strokes and
big picture, but when it comes down to what are
we actually talking about, what are the actual negotiations and
the day to day or the week to week or
the months to month meetings and the outcomes. No, that
I will hold close to the vest, and that I
will they in terms of the playbook that we had
(35:06):
last time and our strategy that we had last time,
and we had no leaks. Let's do that again because
I think we do ourselves as service and I think
that brings a certain level of credibility to the negotiations,
and so that's what I want to repeat again. But
telling our stories, making sure that our fans still feel
(35:27):
connected to you, that's the goal.
Speaker 1 (35:39):
I'm not sure if this is something that happens with
the CBA or not, But as far as you were
referring to with mothers and the w LEXI I think
you said some teams have different type of childcare facilities
and whatnot in place, and some teams don't, and that
causes some women who are free agents to go a
different route because different teams have different of abilities for them.
(36:00):
And I noticed that come up a lot in free agency,
not just with mothers, but with players being like, Okay,
well that team has these facilities and this team has that,
and this comparison game. Is there a future in which
it becomes uniform across the board what teams have to
have for their players, because that I feel like it's
going to cause on the court a difference in the
(36:21):
quality of talent, because some talent are going to be like,
I don't want to play there because I might want
to have a kid in a couple of years and
you know what I'm saying. So is there a world
in which that becomes more uniform team to team.
Speaker 2 (36:31):
I mean I would be like, yes, I would love
that to be a uniform because it's getting into competitive
advantage territory.
Speaker 1 (36:37):
I feel like, yeah, so is that a possibility as
far as you know the paperwork behind the scene.
Speaker 4 (36:42):
And let me ask you this, do you think it's
a good idea that facilities are standardized across a league,
any league, WNBA, NBA. Do you think it's helpful to
see top notch facility have the kind of equipment, have
the kind of recovery resources that professional athletes need. This
(37:06):
is not about being a diva, right, This is not
about who's got the new shiny This fair? But do
you think it makes sense?
Speaker 1 (37:14):
And it's not even about being a diva as much
as it is at least holding them to the standard
that they're used to in college. Me and Luxy have
talked about this before. Going from college. Seems like they
have access to everything and more, and so it's like
that's a standard that they're used to. As far as
even being prepared to compete on the court, it's not
about oh, I want the shiniest new toy. It's like, no,
(37:36):
I want to perform at my best. I want to
be able to win. My worry though, is I don't
want them getting undercut by their being.
Speaker 4 (37:43):
A uniform standard, If that makes sense.
Speaker 1 (37:45):
Like, my worry would be like the NCAA tournament situation
years ago where they had won rackawaits and that was
what was required, the one racket, dumbbells. I don't want
that to happen. So that's my wife.
Speaker 4 (37:56):
Well, well, I mean that's why you have a standard
that's at least said level that makes sense. I'm not
talking about something that is below basic. You have a
standard that puts everybody unnoticed that this is the way
you treat professional athletes and that this is what is
expected of you if you're going to have a WNBA
(38:18):
or name a team franchise.
Speaker 1 (38:19):
But like Legacy said, that bleeds into the competition on
the court because if one team all is training with
the same training staff and it's getting in the sauna
after and the ice bath together and he ha ha,
and then one team is all getting trained by their
own separate trainers, that.
Speaker 3 (38:32):
Affects exactly.
Speaker 2 (38:35):
Bare minimum. And I want people to also understand that
it's not the league, Like, obviously we can put what
we want in the CBA negotiations, but it's on the
ownerships to put the money into these facilities. Everyone is
always just like the WNBA needs to do this the
Wakers like one designated person giving money to each team
(38:56):
like No. These are the different ownership groups, which is
why you're seeing such a disparity between franchises right now,
because you have owners that care and are investing in
their teams like Phoenix in Las Vegas and now Indiana
that we're seeing, and then you have other franchises who
I won't name because we're not gonna throw anybody end
(39:17):
of the bus right now, and they their owners look
like they just don't care. And I think this is
a very important part of our next round of negotiations
is standardizing what players need to compete at the highest
level to win championships, because, like Mariah said, we're used
to it in college.
Speaker 3 (39:36):
In no universe should.
Speaker 2 (39:37):
We be able to comprehend that you get to the
highest level and everything is downgraded.
Speaker 1 (39:43):
That's why it's important for our listeners and fans and
the public to hear from Terry, from you to understand
that it's not like when fans say the WNBA needs
to do this, and that it's not like the WNBA
is the enemy of the players and they don't want
the players to do well and have nice like it's
not like that. I'm not that about the ownership either,
but it's important that fans understand that there are bodies
(40:04):
in place that are fighting for the players to have
what they need and what they want and what they desire.
It's not like the WNBA just like, oh, we don't
want them to have practiacilities. That doesn't make sense for us.
Speaker 2 (40:13):
And at the end of the day, it is a business,
and we do all understand that we've just done a
really good job navigating this new time in this new era,
and I think we just have positioned ourselves to take
a leap with these next negotiations. So the last question
before we get off of here, we'll circle back to
your interview question, Terry, where do you see the WNBA
(40:36):
in the next five to ten years? God willing that
this CBA goes the way that we wanted to go.
What do you envision for us in the next.
Speaker 4 (40:44):
Five Well, let me go to the it's business comment.
I think there is no better time for workers to
collectively organize and become a part of a union. And
I am hopeful that there is a resurgence of the
labor movement that is driven by the leadership of you,
(41:05):
Lexi and the women of the W. That is my hope,
that is what I believe will truly happen, that through
these negotiations, we will once again show not just the
sports world, but the world generally, what you can do
when even when you are a small but mighty group,
(41:25):
small but mighty labor union, what you can do when
you collectively organize, when you work together, when you understand
the power of consensus and you understand the power of
your collective voice, the labor movement will have a resurgence.
Mark my words, mark this moment, in marketyar that it
(41:47):
will be because of you all and what you do
this time. And that's the other reason why I say
all eyes on us. I think we're also going to
see a stronger movement of player advocacy. The power of
the player has been growing and it's going to reach
great heights in the W. I think that you will
(42:11):
finally be seen as you should always have been seen
as respected business women in this league, because it is
quite clear to me as your executive director, that you
know the business of sport, you know the business of
this league, you care about it, you look to protect it,
(42:31):
and you are going to finally be seen as the
respected players and business women of the w Power.
Speaker 3 (42:41):
To the Players, Power to the Players.
Speaker 2 (42:44):
Oh my gosh, that is the perfect title, and it's
going to be the title of our episite Terry. Thank
you so much for coming on. I am honored, I'm grateful.
I love you so much. I would not be here
without you. I tell you all the time, So thank you,
so so much. I'm so excited for this episode to
drop and we can educate our listeners and you, guys,
(43:05):
thanks for tuning in for another.
Speaker 3 (43:06):
Episode of Full Circle. We will see you next week.
Speaker 4 (43:09):
Thank you, Thank you, Mariah.
Speaker 1 (43:12):
Thanks for listening to Full Circle. We'll be back next
week with more basketball for the girls, by the girls.
We want to hear from you. Leave us a review
on Apple Podcasts, and tell us what you want us
to talk about. Full Circle is hosted by Lexi Brown
and Mariah Rose. Our executive producer is Jesse Katz. Our
supervising producer is Grace Fuse. Our producer is Zoe Danklab.
(43:33):
Listen to Full Circle on America's number one podcast network, iHeart,
open your free iHeart app and search Full Circle with
Lexi Brown and Mariah Rose and start listening
Full Circle is an iheartwoman's sports production in partnership with
Deep Blue Sports and Entertainment. You can find us on
the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, y'all,
welcome back to another episode of Full Circle. I am
so excited today we have a very special guest and
I'm going to kick it to Lexi to do the intro.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Hey, y'all, welcome back to our show. I hope you
guys have been enjoying it so far. I'm so excited
to introduce our very first guests of this season. She
really needs no introduction, but I'm gonna guess her up
a little bit because she deserves one. We have Terry
Jackson in the building with us. Terry is the current
executive director of the Women's National Basketball Players Association. She
(00:46):
joined the WNBPA after four years with the NCAA. She
has also taught courses on women's in sports at American University,
Trinity University, and Tulane University. She earned her You're a
Doctor from Georgetown University Law Center and her Bachelor of
Arts from Georgetown University. And she is the proud mama
(01:07):
bear of Jaron Jackson Junior, who plays for the Memphis Chrizzlies.
Speaker 3 (01:11):
Welcome Terry, Welcome.
Speaker 4 (01:13):
Thank you ladies. Yes, all of that, and thanks for
the problem at the end.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
Yes, Oh my gosh, I'm so happy that you're here.
I remember I asked you weeks ago to be one
of my first guests and you said yes immediately, which
is why I love you so much.
Speaker 3 (01:30):
And I'm just so happy and excited that you're here.
Speaker 4 (01:32):
Well, I'm happy and excited that you are doing this.
I'm happy and excited to be the first, and of
course I said yes. Of course I said yes. Oh
my god.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
I'm so excited because I feel like people see your
name attached to all these monumental things that we're doing
in the WNBA, but they don't really know who Terry is.
And I think that this episode, we want people, our
listeners to get to know you a little bit more,
because there is no us without you, like absolutely not.
Speaker 4 (02:01):
Aw thank you for that. Yeah, let's peel out the
layers a little bit.
Speaker 3 (02:06):
Yes, let's get into it.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
How long have you been with the Players Association and
what made you want to get involved.
Speaker 4 (02:11):
With the Oh love this question. Love this question because
twenty twenty four marked my ninth season, LEXI, my ninth
season with the league. And so when I say that,
the staff team here says, start claiming twenty twenty five,
and they're right right, Like, I'm headed into my tenth
(02:32):
season serving the most amazing professional athletes on the planet,
the badass women of the w LEXI included, Yeah, this
is an amazing job. And I got here because I
read an email, like that's the short answer to the question.
(02:53):
I was at the NCAA. I was working for the
best boss in the building, the chief legal officer. At
the time. I was kind of like his chief of staff.
And then I got this email and I'm in the
middle of NCAA convention and I'm like, I don't have
time to read this. And a friend of mine she said,
did you read that email? And I said, no, I
don't have time. She said, no, read the email. I
(03:15):
start reading the email. I click on the attachment. It's
a job notice for this position, and I'm like, okay,
I got to call you back. And that's how I
learned about the opportunity. And from there it was like
preparing for war, like I wanted this job, though seriously,
(03:36):
I want it working out, preparing, working out twice a day,
reading everything I could read, texting everybody I knew, saying
do you know anybody? Because I want this job? Do
you know anybody? Like? Put a good word in that?
Really is that's a prepare for war.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
You guys might think she's joking, But every time we
get off of a call with Terry about the CBA,
which we'll get into in a minute.
Speaker 3 (03:58):
She's literally like, buckle up, prepare for war.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
Like that's how passionate she is about that, and that's
why she is who she is, and that's where the
league is where it's at now.
Speaker 3 (04:07):
But like y'all, she's not joking.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
Well, I'm curious, Terry, because a lot of my audience
is new to being a fan of the W, which
is so incredible that there's so many new fans.
Speaker 4 (04:19):
Thank you for the news.
Speaker 1 (04:21):
A lot of people know what Lexi does and what
the players do on the court. But could you describe
for people who are new to being a fan of
the W what you do?
Speaker 4 (04:29):
Wow? Yeah, could I describe it? I don't know if
I could describe it, honestly, being the executive director, let
me start first and foremost means that as leads staff
for the union of the first Union for professional women athletes,
means I report to the players. Heart stop, everybody understand
what that means. We have a governance structure that's really
(04:51):
quite easy. We have a board of player representatives, two
player representatives from each of the teams. We have an
executive committe. They are large and in charge of this union.
I report to them. That's the way it goes. And
so the vision that they have for this union, the
agenda they look to set as staff, I look to
(05:15):
execute and implement it. So it's a lot about monitoring
the CBA and ensuring that we're holding the team and
the leagues accountable to the things that we've negotiated, getting
the players paid and paid on time, talking about the
drug policy, housing, how they travel, making sure that their
(05:35):
working conditions are safe. That's the CBA, that's the collective
Bargaining Agreement. That's what we're largely responsible for monitoring. They're
also a group licensing rights that we get to monetize
and produce additional revenue for this union, but for the
players directly. There's so many parts to this job, and
(05:56):
you know, as a lawyer, I couldn't have a better
job in the world than doing what I get to do,
making a difference every single day, making it.
Speaker 3 (06:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:07):
Yeah, Well, you've basically explained a simple way of what
the CBA is. And I remember the last CBA that
we negotiated. I was only in my second season, so
I was young. I had no idea what was going on.
I was just listening to veterans and they're like, this
is what we're doing, this is what we need to do,
and I was just.
Speaker 3 (06:26):
Like, okay, okay, okay.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
Fast forward four years later, we're opting out, which I
think we all knew was going to happen. What do
you think is like the biggest difference between that negotiation
period and this.
Speaker 4 (06:40):
Ooh great question. First of all, I didn't assume that
the players were opting out. I know everybody else decided
that the players were going to opt out. Of course
they were going to opt out. I wasn't there because
we had to do the work right. We had to
understand the business. We had to review the financials, We
had to understand the CBA. We were in now, the
twenty twenty CBA, what was that going to look like
(07:03):
over the long term. We had to assemble a group
of badass experts to do the crystal ball thing and
predict were the players going to start gaining, were they
going to start realizing the success that they are contributing to.
And so we had to do all that and understand
how to advise the players and help them. Also understand
(07:23):
that this negotiation was going to look very different from
before that there was going to be a fight this time,
and everybody had to be aware of that. Last time,
we were looking to fix so many things. It was salary,
it was compensation, it was player health and safety, it
was the player experience, and we did so much. I'm
(07:45):
proud of the twenty twenty CBA. With the system that
we had, we made significant gains. Players aren't sharing hotel
rooms anymore. We're supporting player moms in a big way.
There were more dollars, but there were limited dollars that
were coming in. We had to kind of rebuild this
system and show the league that marketing w players was
(08:07):
key and how to do that and do the storytelling
in a way that resonated with fans and that would
drive commerce and all the metrics. So we did that,
and so here we are having done that groundwork here,
we are seeing the business thriving year over year, and
so now we're in a position where there are real
(08:29):
dollars flowing through here, and so we have to talk
about the business model again. Is there an opportunity to
do another shift, another change and make sure that the
players are valued again for their contributions on and off
the court because they are the W.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
What's an area that you feel like going into this
next round you are really focused on honing it on
because I know you said last time you were focused
on just overall player safety, players being happier. But now
with all of these new eyes and some of these
new dollars that you were referring to, what is the
huge area that you think needs to be focused.
Speaker 2 (09:10):
I want Mariah to answer that because she has a difference.
Speaker 4 (09:13):
Maybe she does what has everybody seemingly been laser focused on,
and maybe there's a top two or top three. So
name one of the things you think, Mariah.
Speaker 1 (09:25):
The biggest thing I hear about. Number one is travel.
Obviously I heard that the W is now chartering flights,
but then there was reports that it wasn't for every
single team, And then I would say the second thing
would just be facilities, like being pretty equal across the board,
because it's like some teams have these incredible expensive facilities
(09:48):
and then some teams don't have practice facilities. And then
the third thing I would say is.
Speaker 4 (09:52):
Pay Okay, we're done. You named them as one, two, three.
I know you didn't actually do them in any order.
It's not actually you were gonna say pay first, because
that's what we really hear a lot about. There's so
many comparisons across s boards that help or don't help
advance the conversation. Charter travel, I know, is a big one,
and I think the league LEXI, you tell me if
(10:14):
you agree with this. I think the league helped itself.
The commissioner helped herself and helped the league in the
teams by announcing last year at the beginning of the
season that there was going to be charter travel and
it was charter for all. To answer that question, Mariah
Charter for All. She had been phasing it in the postseason,
but had announced it for the whole season, from the
(10:35):
regular season through the end of the postseason. That was great.
She announced it for twenty twenty four, and she announced
it for twenty twenty five. Really no problem there. The
only question or concern that we have is are we
going to write that down? Because the announcement of it
is great. It's not in the CBA right now. Of
course we've opted out of the CBA, so there's opportunity
to put it in there. So we need it in writing.
(10:57):
It's the lawyer in me and the players under they've
got contracts. They read their contracts. They know that if
it's in the contract, then they're getting it. So we've
got to get it in the contract. With respect to
charter travel facilities, I think you've seen an arms race
almost right when it comes to the teams and the facilities.
(11:17):
They are finally stepping up in a big way that
is about player health and safety. Quite frankly proud to
see lots of teams taking great, big strides. Hopeful that
we won't have teams holding back the rest of the league.
Everybody needs to make big strides when it comes to facilities.
And then yes, of course we're going to talk about salary.
(11:40):
We're going to talk about salary separate from compensation. Salary
is what you get paid for doing the job that
you are contracted for, and salary demonstrates your worth, demonstrates
your value, and we've got to put a spotlight on that.
And to your new fans, thank you again for joining
and being a part of our fight and being part
(12:02):
of this advocacy and part of the fandom. What we
need you to understand is these three things are big.
When the players opted out, they said that this is
what opt out is about. They were very clear on that,
and they said it's about doing business, and so that's
what we're here to do business.
Speaker 3 (12:20):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (12:20):
I think the one thing that I would add from
a player's perspective, which is something that I personally in
the last round of negotiations, since I was so young,
never really thought about, was the benefits for retired players.
And I feel like that has come up recently in
our conversations about the CBA amongst us as teams, and
(12:43):
these past few years, I've gotten really close with Cheryl Swoops,
so I've really gotten a different insight onto life as
a WNBA player and a retired WNBA player and how
she quite literally was kicked to the curb once her
time in the WNBA was done. And I think think
now we as this younger generation, you know, taking the
(13:05):
responsibility of giving the players that built this amazing league
their flowers and protection and the support that they need
post career. You know, I've seen our conversations obviously, I've
been in those rooms. Where would you rank that as priority,
you know, in comparison to salaries to travel to the facility.
Speaker 4 (13:22):
First of all, let's tell the listeners why you're in
the room and why you've heard those conversations, Because you've
gone from being a young player looking up to the
vets and connecting with them and listening to them and understanding,
to now stepping into your own power and claiming the
opportunity to be part of leadership. So Lexi is part
(13:44):
of that high discovering body in our union. She's a
member of the Board of Player Representatives. And that's right, Yeah,
we made it.
Speaker 3 (13:52):
We made it.
Speaker 2 (13:52):
I had to survive long enough, and I did. And
I'm like, okay, now let me hoppy.
Speaker 4 (13:57):
Yes, And I was always throw this lead Lexi that
you you would recognize and step into that power and
be a part of these conversations at this high level.
And yes, you do know what's taking place and how
folks are talking about it, how players have been talking
about it. In our meetings, but how they've also been
connecting with veterans and retired players and understanding the need
(14:20):
to think about this CBA in a more holistic way.
And there are so many priorities that are top priorities.
And I think we've heard how can we support retired
players or players who are retiring, How can we be
creative in what we do for them? What can that
look like now or based in over time? I don't know,
(14:43):
what do you think? What do you think it's up there?
Isn't it?
Speaker 2 (14:45):
I mean, yeah, And I think it's really because for
the first time, these older players are coming back around
the W in or a really positive way. They're getting involved,
they're getting to know us, they're teaching us th And
I feel like in my early career I didn't really
see very many retired players around.
Speaker 3 (15:06):
I grew up watching.
Speaker 2 (15:07):
The W My dad coached in the W, Like, I
don't know where any of his players are, Like, I
never kept in contact with them, and I'll take ownership
of that.
Speaker 3 (15:15):
But again, I was just the child, you know.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
But I think with the growth of social media in
general has allowed all of us become more connected, which
I think, you know, even though we say there's like
a lot of negatives about social media and all this
constant contact. I think that's been really important to us
as a league. And again, like mentioning Cheryl, like I
never in a million years thought that I would have
a relationship with.
Speaker 4 (15:37):
Cheryl Swoops, And it was so easy.
Speaker 2 (15:39):
Right, yes, and it was so genuine, and she's been great,
and I'm just glad that, you know, we're able to
give her her flowers, show her love, and that she's
back on the forefront of the w like she's literally
one of one of one of our greats, right and
now she's finally being treated like one.
Speaker 4 (15:56):
Janapel Marinelli also retired player. So when I was interviewing
for this job and my first season or two, I
was reporting to Jane and other players. She was part
of player leadership. Jane retired soon thereafter and joined us,
joined our staff at the Union. She's mission focused on
retired players, and so I really give credit to her
(16:18):
and the rest of the staff team for how we
have looked to rebuild that bridge between the current players,
the union and retired players. Of course, they have their
own Retired Players Association, but it's something meaningful to be
a part of that alumni group and for us to
recognize them as that alumni group and all the wisdom
(16:39):
and all the experience and all the stories that they have,
And that was key to us working with Cheryl in
Shattered Class in the documentary that is still streaming free
on two Be by the way, shameless plug, because you
don't move forward without remembering where you've come from and
all the advances, and so their important part again, who
(17:00):
we are, our identity and our future.
Speaker 1 (17:10):
I wonder because you alluded to this a bit when
you said people make comparisons that are sometimes helpful and
sometimes not helpful at all. As a mama bear to
an NBA player and also as the collective mama bear
to the w I'm curious when you see those comparisons,
if you could rewrite the narrative, what would you want
(17:31):
people to know about women's basketball separate from those comparisons
people are always trying to make.
Speaker 4 (17:36):
I answered that question when I interviewed for this job,
and quite frankly, I think it's why the players in
leadership at that time chose me. They asked me, you know,
the typical interview question that you get at the end
and I was prepared for all of them. When I
said preparing for war, I was like writing out all
my answers, thinking about them, like living, breathing them. And
(17:59):
then you get the question that you know you're going
to get at the end, where do you see yourself?
Where do you see this union in five to ten years?
And I had an answer ready, and I probably still
have those little index cards I could find out. I
don't remember my answer, but during the course of the interview,
there were so many references, Well, in the NBA and
the NBA guys have this, and at the NBPA the
Brother Union, this is what they do. There was so
(18:21):
much comparison. It was about to make my head explode.
I was like, wait, why are we doing this?
Speaker 2 (18:26):
Wait?
Speaker 4 (18:26):
Where am I? I'm in this interview for the WNBPA
to talk about WNBA players and why are we still
talking about the NBA guys and what they had. When
they asked me the question where do I see myself?
Where do I see this union in five to ten years?
I had to decide in a split second was I
going with my prepared answer or was I going to
(18:48):
address what was the moment right there? And I pivoted
and I don't usually do that, but I pivoted and
I said, in five to ten years, we are going
to recognize our game and our identity for what it is.
We are going to recognize that we are different, and
we are going to stop comparing ourselves to the NBA
(19:11):
guys and to the NBA game because our game is different.
Who we are is different, and we need to celebrate
that different doesn't mean lesser than it just simply means different.
That's it. And so what I want to see and
what I want us to do is build brand relationships
based on who we are, not based on what they
(19:33):
are or what they have. But what I do think
and what I think is helpful to me in this
role is being that mama bear of an NBA player
who happens to be in leadership at his brother union. Right.
It gives me a vision to see what they have,
to see what they're doing, how they're maneuvering, how they're operating,
what they have what we don't have, but to see
(19:55):
how we can do it for ourselves in a way
that's true and authentic to who we are. Not to
play this. We got to catch up with the Joneses
before the twenty twenty CBA. We kind of had their
CBA that didn't work for us. It was kind of
a bad cutting pace job of the NBA, NVPA CBA
that wasn't working for us. That doesn't work for professional
(20:17):
women athletes. And so that's what I told them. I said,
we're going to value who we are. We're gonna value
being different. We're gonna build something different, and we're going
to wait and let people come to us. And where
are we right now? Women's sports is the new it girl, right.
Everybody wants to be our friend, everybody wants to be
(20:37):
our partner, work with us, support us, and we welcome that.
The W is the W. It's not trying to be
the n We're the Wright period.
Speaker 2 (20:48):
And now I'll stay on the topic of comparison. Yeah,
you know, I didn't think that there would be another
women's basketball league that we could ever compare the W two.
You look at leagues like athletes, unlimited, like unrivaled.
Speaker 4 (21:03):
I'm a big fan.
Speaker 2 (21:04):
From your perspective in our negotiations, Does this provide the
players more leverage or is it going to be problematic
in your opinion, because honestly, I'm not sure because I'm
seeing the conversations online about unrival is just going to
take over, like there's just going to be no more W.
(21:24):
Like again, these conversations and opinions that people are throwing
out are just coming out of thin air.
Speaker 3 (21:30):
So I would love for you.
Speaker 2 (21:31):
To educate us on what having these off season leagues
means to us and negotiations, and then also like what
that means.
Speaker 3 (21:41):
For the W like moving forward.
Speaker 4 (21:43):
These are leagues that operate during the off season of
the WNBA Ding Ding Ding. That's a win. That's huge,
And already they're showing that they're not looking to compete
with the W. They have found that sweet spot of
a time to op rate during the off season and
before the college tournaments really kick off right or before
(22:06):
March Madness, and so they are flourishing, and they're giving
young women athletes in the wor or looking to be
in the W. They're giving them opportunities to work on
their game to develop their gain here in the United States.
That's got to be a win. That's what I think
is special about both of them, particularly the timing and
(22:27):
the opportunity that they give, and that there's compensation tie
to each of them. So players playing with Athletes Unlimited
are getting paid. Players playing with Unrivaled or getting paid.
And I think the Unrivaled model is also significant in
that this is started by players. That's what I like
about Athletes Unlimited too.
Speaker 3 (22:46):
Right, Yeah, we're in charge.
Speaker 2 (22:47):
We aren't founders like in Unrivaled, but we are in
like leadership positions.
Speaker 4 (22:52):
Well, Unrivaled has taken the model in kind of another direction, right,
So players are in charge, but players have founded this.
Players have an EQUI stake. I mean, when you look
at sports, you look at the landscape, it is shifting constantly,
and women's sports is right there with it. I love
what's happening with AU. I love what's happening and Unrivaled.
(23:14):
I love the narratives that are coming out. The fact
that the average salary and Unrivaled is two hundred and
twenty thousand dollars. I'm paying attention. I hope the league
and the teams are too. I mean that's a statement move.
Like I said, there's equity. I think it's an extraordinary
move that their games are televised. That's huge. I think
(23:35):
Unrivaled and I think AU are augmenting what the w
has and continuing to make women's basketball at this professional
level not only relevant, but accessible and exciting to the fans.
I see honestly nothing but positives coming from it. And
(23:56):
if we're smart on the union player side of the house,
we use it as leverage. And if the league and
teams are smart, they're paying attention to because there are
lessons to be learned. There should not be any hard
feelings here. We should all be pulling in the same
direction to support, to support what's happening here, because as
(24:20):
you all say all the time, this is more than
a moment, right, It is definitely a movement and it's exciting.
Speaker 3 (24:27):
Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:29):
And then for both of you, I think on an
outside looking in perspective, even with unrivaled in AU and
with this growth the WNBA is experiencing, I think a
lot of people reach for comparisons or even saying things
like giving credit to younger players coming in while saying
that the league isn't trying to embrace them, or there's
(24:49):
hating going on or whatever. As two people who are
like actually super involved in the league, what are you
noticing as far as player relationships in this new era
and people welcoming in these new players and what is
that looking like actually from the inside.
Speaker 4 (25:07):
So I love that you asked this, Mariah, because all
that commentary on social media and in traditional media about
the hate and the non support, like, honestly, that makes
us laugh. Do the players compete like heck and want
to win? Are they fierce competitors on the court. Absolutely,
(25:27):
But at the end of the day, we are a
union and we understand what it means to support each
other off the court too. We have to because we're
one of the smaller unions. We don't have a lot
of resources like those other unions do. We got to
rely on the collective voice and we got to link
arms and be together. So does that mean that Lexi
(25:48):
and whomever you want to go out there and beat
the Seattle Storm with with Neka Gumk and Skyler Diggain Smith. Yes,
they want to beat their butts. Absolutely, and we all
understand that as fans like that's the kind of level
of competition we want to see. But off the court,
do they respect what Lexi's doing and how she's moving?
(26:09):
Do they respect Meca as their president? Absolutely? So to
those of you who want to say there's jealousy and
they don't like each other and they don't support each other.
Speaker 3 (26:20):
All right, wrap it up.
Speaker 4 (26:23):
That's old. How many games do you go to if
that's what you're saying, Come to a game, check them out,
and then see how we are moving as a union
because we couldn't get it done if that narrative was
the truth.
Speaker 2 (26:35):
Absolutely, to add on to that, we're going to see
a different w because so many of us are able
to stay home in the off season. Can you imagine
being on a team or working in an office and
you don't see or speak to each other for six
months because y'all are all in different countries making a living,
and then you have to just reconvene when training camps start.
Speaker 3 (26:57):
That's a great point. That's basically been the real of
the WNBA.
Speaker 2 (27:01):
And now y'all see what's going on in Miami, all
of the Tampa.
Speaker 1 (27:06):
My next question and tampering.
Speaker 3 (27:08):
Quote unquote going on down there, and how much.
Speaker 4 (27:10):
There's there's not tampering, there's just coffees.
Speaker 3 (27:13):
No, there is no coffees and tiktoks.
Speaker 2 (27:16):
You're gonna see the same camaraderie in Au coming up
this week when we start playing like these are the
relationships that have always existed, but nobody has really been
able to see them because they've just been private because
everyone's been so spaced out all the time. So for me,
seeing more players being able to stay stateside to play,
(27:37):
to follow different career paths, marketing stuff, brand stuff, that's
one of the biggest difference I've seen and why this
league has been able to move forward so much quicker
than we've ever seen is because we are all able
to just be here and be present here together.
Speaker 4 (27:53):
Agreed, that's a great point.
Speaker 1 (27:55):
I never thought about that. It's not that the relationships
weren't there, we didn't really get to see them because
you were physically apart. And now I feel like that'll
improve the overall just like health and level of competition too,
because you're not having to do all of that traveling
and live somewhere else physically and then come back here
and have to get used to your teammates and time
changes and all of that stuff.
Speaker 3 (28:15):
And I was insane. It's insane.
Speaker 2 (28:17):
And then on top of that, you are coming from
overseas straight to training camp. You don't really have that
time to breathe, and it was just like just a
non stop constant and you never really got to just
sit back and be like, how can I build a
relationship with my teammates? How can I help this league grow?
Because I'm just moving non stop. So I'm really grateful
(28:39):
that this is all happening. I'm grateful that I'm still
in the league to experience it, witness it, be a
part of it.
Speaker 3 (28:45):
Because Terry knows.
Speaker 2 (28:47):
There was moments where I was like, can I come
work with you?
Speaker 4 (28:51):
Everybody had these movements. It's a tough lead. Think about it,
before expansions, one hundred and forty four jobs. Now there's
one hundred and fifty six. We're still swalln mighty. But
this is the toughest league to make. Do the math,
only one hundred and fifty six jobs. You've got to
be elite. You've got to be cream of the cream, right,
(29:15):
you got to be at the top. You've got to
be at the top.
Speaker 2 (29:18):
And thirty six new people coming in every year that's
just drafted. So you don't only have to make it
you get make it.
Speaker 4 (29:26):
You got to keep it. You got to sustain that
level of talent and performance.
Speaker 1 (29:32):
What about the WNBA's moms because obviously with women performing
at the highest level as athletes. That also poses a
unique challenge for women, you know, having children. And I
saw that the Fever's new facility is supposed to have
daycare and whatnot. But what are some things in your
(29:52):
job and your roletary that you feel like need to
be recognized as far as women you know who are
having children and still are performing at the t level.
Speaker 4 (30:00):
When I first got this job, I remember during the
interview process, you know, reading the CBA, and I said, wait,
what happens when they're pregnant. I didn't remember reading that
in the CBA, And so I go back to the
CBA and I'm looking at I'm like, Okay, we don't
really talk about that. That's crazy. The only thing you
really see in that old CBA was players have to
disclose and players only get paid half their salary. And
(30:24):
I was like, oh my god, who agreed to that?
And why we've got to fix that. I also thought about,
you know, when I was a young mom and my
son's dad was playing in the NBA at the time,
I'd walk into the arena and somebody would scoop him
up and take him to the family room and he
could play with the other kids. He would be fed
(30:45):
if he wanted to sleep, or he could come hang
out in the seats with me and watch the game.
And so I'd go in my new job as head
of this union and I'd say, Okay, where's the family room?
And people would look at me like I was crazy.
I was like, wait a second. The guys had this.
Now I'm comparing. Right, the guys had this, and we
don't do this for professional women athletes. Okay, we got
(31:06):
to fix that. I thought there were so many opportunities
that we had to demonstrate how we could support women
who wanted to start a family or who had a
family and maintain playing in the W. And this twenty
twenty CBA, when Lexi and I talk about, it's good.
It did a lot of things. It helped fix that.
(31:26):
And we saw more players who were moms or starting
their families than ever before. And we've got to continue
that because that's really important. We want young women who
are in high school getting ready to go to college
thinking about aspiring to be a W player to say
I can do that and I can have it all,
(31:46):
just like working women in any industry across this country,
across the globe are saying, how can I have it
all we can do that. It can't be a challenge.
It should not be a challenge a hindrance, right, It
should be something that we do and that we celebrate.
And I am celebrating the fact that we see more
(32:08):
player parents in the w than we have in decades,
and we have probably ever in its history, and it's
because of this twenty twenty CBA. But we opted out
of this one, and I think we have to do
even better.
Speaker 2 (32:23):
Yeah, and I've heard and I've seen player mothers still
in twenty twenty four having grievances with how they handle
them as moms, and it is one of the reasons
why we saw so much movement in the free agency
from some mothers was literally like there was no type
of childcare in place like we were promised, So we
(32:45):
got to go somewhere that there is one.
Speaker 3 (32:47):
And I think that's so important.
Speaker 2 (32:49):
You know, for me, I don't have any kids, but
you know, five years ago, I was like, am I
gonna be able to have kids and play and be
comfortable and be embraced and yeah, and now the answer
is yes, I agree with you.
Speaker 3 (33:01):
We do still have a lot of work to do.
Speaker 2 (33:03):
One of the things I love about you is like
your candidness and openness. And when I was doing some
reading prior to this, I was seeing the NWSL they
just had their renegotiation period and they talked about how
they kept theirs very close to their chest and didn't
really have people or the media or the outside have
(33:24):
any type of insight into what they were doing.
Speaker 3 (33:27):
Where obviously the complete opposite of that.
Speaker 2 (33:30):
What benefits do you see of us being so candid
and open with so many people about what we're trying
to achieve in our CVR.
Speaker 4 (33:38):
Well, I think there's a balance there. Hopefully you feel
that this conversation with you and Mariah is candid and
open and with your listeners, because that's what I always
look to be. But I don't look to negotiate in
the press. I look to negotiate in the war room,
right in the conference room. That's where we do the work,
and we do ourselves a favor by maintaining that kind
(34:00):
of strategy and approach. Will we talk big picture about
what new can look like? Absolutely, that's part of this
candid conversation, and I think the players do themselves a
service a great service to say this is what's on
our minds. The women of the W With all due
respect to our colleagues in soccer, but in the W
(34:23):
we lead, we really do. We know all eyes are
on us, and so we've got to do the work
and get it right and get this CBA to respond
to who we are, to who you are as players,
as professional women athletes, to ensure your value, to ensure
your rights, to ensure you're safe, to ensure that you
are able to play at that high level. Sure, I
(34:46):
will talk about that in terms of broad strokes and
big picture, but when it comes down to what are
we actually talking about, what are the actual negotiations and
the day to day or the week to week or
the months to month meetings and the outcomes. No, that
I will hold close to the vest, and that I
will they in terms of the playbook that we had
(35:06):
last time and our strategy that we had last time,
and we had no leaks. Let's do that again because
I think we do ourselves as service and I think
that brings a certain level of credibility to the negotiations,
and so that's what I want to repeat again. But
telling our stories, making sure that our fans still feel
(35:27):
connected to you, that's the goal.
Speaker 1 (35:39):
I'm not sure if this is something that happens with
the CBA or not, But as far as you were
referring to with mothers and the w LEXI I think
you said some teams have different type of childcare facilities
and whatnot in place, and some teams don't, and that
causes some women who are free agents to go a
different route because different teams have different of abilities for them.
(36:00):
And I noticed that come up a lot in free agency,
not just with mothers, but with players being like, Okay,
well that team has these facilities and this team has that,
and this comparison game. Is there a future in which
it becomes uniform across the board what teams have to
have for their players, because that I feel like it's
going to cause on the court a difference in the
(36:21):
quality of talent, because some talent are going to be like,
I don't want to play there because I might want
to have a kid in a couple of years and
you know what I'm saying. So is there a world
in which that becomes more uniform team to team.
Speaker 2 (36:31):
I mean I would be like, yes, I would love
that to be a uniform because it's getting into competitive
advantage territory.
Speaker 1 (36:37):
I feel like, yeah, so is that a possibility as
far as you know the paperwork behind the scene.
Speaker 4 (36:42):
And let me ask you this, do you think it's
a good idea that facilities are standardized across a league,
any league, WNBA, NBA. Do you think it's helpful to
see top notch facility have the kind of equipment, have
the kind of recovery resources that professional athletes need. This
(37:06):
is not about being a diva, right, This is not
about who's got the new shiny This fair? But do
you think it makes sense?
Speaker 1 (37:14):
And it's not even about being a diva as much
as it is at least holding them to the standard
that they're used to in college. Me and Luxy have
talked about this before. Going from college. Seems like they
have access to everything and more, and so it's like
that's a standard that they're used to. As far as
even being prepared to compete on the court, it's not
about oh, I want the shiniest new toy. It's like, no,
(37:36):
I want to perform at my best. I want to
be able to win. My worry though, is I don't
want them getting undercut by their being.
Speaker 4 (37:43):
A uniform standard, If that makes sense.
Speaker 1 (37:45):
Like, my worry would be like the NCAA tournament situation
years ago where they had won rackawaits and that was
what was required, the one racket, dumbbells. I don't want
that to happen. So that's my wife.
Speaker 4 (37:56):
Well, well, I mean that's why you have a standard
that's at least said level that makes sense. I'm not
talking about something that is below basic. You have a
standard that puts everybody unnoticed that this is the way
you treat professional athletes and that this is what is
expected of you if you're going to have a WNBA
(38:18):
or name a team franchise.
Speaker 1 (38:19):
But like Legacy said, that bleeds into the competition on
the court because if one team all is training with
the same training staff and it's getting in the sauna
after and the ice bath together and he ha ha,
and then one team is all getting trained by their
own separate trainers, that.
Speaker 3 (38:32):
Affects exactly.
Speaker 2 (38:35):
Bare minimum. And I want people to also understand that
it's not the league, Like, obviously we can put what
we want in the CBA negotiations, but it's on the
ownerships to put the money into these facilities. Everyone is
always just like the WNBA needs to do this the
Wakers like one designated person giving money to each team
(38:56):
like No. These are the different ownership groups, which is
why you're seeing such a disparity between franchises right now,
because you have owners that care and are investing in
their teams like Phoenix in Las Vegas and now Indiana
that we're seeing, and then you have other franchises who
I won't name because we're not gonna throw anybody end
(39:17):
of the bus right now, and they their owners look
like they just don't care. And I think this is
a very important part of our next round of negotiations
is standardizing what players need to compete at the highest
level to win championships, because, like Mariah said, we're used
to it in college.
Speaker 3 (39:36):
In no universe should.
Speaker 2 (39:37):
We be able to comprehend that you get to the
highest level and everything is downgraded.
Speaker 1 (39:43):
That's why it's important for our listeners and fans and
the public to hear from Terry, from you to understand
that it's not like when fans say the WNBA needs
to do this, and that it's not like the WNBA
is the enemy of the players and they don't want
the players to do well and have nice like it's
not like that. I'm not that about the ownership either,
but it's important that fans understand that there are bodies
(40:04):
in place that are fighting for the players to have
what they need and what they want and what they desire.
It's not like the WNBA just like, oh, we don't
want them to have practiacilities. That doesn't make sense for us.
Speaker 2 (40:13):
And at the end of the day, it is a business,
and we do all understand that we've just done a
really good job navigating this new time in this new era,
and I think we just have positioned ourselves to take
a leap with these next negotiations. So the last question
before we get off of here, we'll circle back to
your interview question, Terry, where do you see the WNBA
(40:36):
in the next five to ten years? God willing that
this CBA goes the way that we wanted to go.
What do you envision for us in the next.
Speaker 4 (40:44):
Five Well, let me go to the it's business comment.
I think there is no better time for workers to
collectively organize and become a part of a union. And
I am hopeful that there is a resurgence of the
labor movement that is driven by the leadership of you,
(41:05):
Lexi and the women of the W. That is my hope,
that is what I believe will truly happen, that through
these negotiations, we will once again show not just the
sports world, but the world generally, what you can do
when even when you are a small but mighty group,
(41:25):
small but mighty labor union, what you can do when
you collectively organize, when you work together, when you understand
the power of consensus and you understand the power of
your collective voice, the labor movement will have a resurgence.
Mark my words, mark this moment, in marketyar that it
(41:47):
will be because of you all and what you do
this time. And that's the other reason why I say
all eyes on us. I think we're also going to
see a stronger movement of player advocacy. The power of
the player has been growing and it's going to reach
great heights in the W. I think that you will
(42:11):
finally be seen as you should always have been seen
as respected business women in this league, because it is
quite clear to me as your executive director, that you
know the business of sport, you know the business of
this league, you care about it, you look to protect it,
(42:31):
and you are going to finally be seen as the
respected players and business women of the w Power.
Speaker 3 (42:41):
To the Players, Power to the Players.
Speaker 2 (42:44):
Oh my gosh, that is the perfect title, and it's
going to be the title of our episite Terry. Thank
you so much for coming on. I am honored, I'm grateful.
I love you so much. I would not be here
without you. I tell you all the time, So thank you,
so so much. I'm so excited for this episode to
drop and we can educate our listeners and you, guys,
(43:05):
thanks for tuning in for another.
Speaker 3 (43:06):
Episode of Full Circle. We will see you next week.
Speaker 4 (43:09):
Thank you, Thank you, Mariah.
Speaker 1 (43:12):
Thanks for listening to Full Circle. We'll be back next
week with more basketball for the girls, by the girls.
We want to hear from you. Leave us a review
on Apple Podcasts, and tell us what you want us
to talk about. Full Circle is hosted by Lexi Brown
and Mariah Rose. Our executive producer is Jesse Katz. Our
supervising producer is Grace Fuse. Our producer is Zoe Danklab.
(43:33):
Listen to Full Circle on America's number one podcast network, iHeart,
open your free iHeart app and search Full Circle with
Lexi Brown and Mariah Rose and start listening
Hosts And Creators
Lexie Brown
Mariah Rose
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com