April 3, 2025 • 36 mins
Kevin and Casey tackle James Blunt’s hauntingly infectious SINGER SONGWRITER STARBUCKS ballad from 2005. Will the boys find this song beautiful or is James out of Kevin’s dream Blunt rotation?
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
Give it a chance, give it a chance, give it
a chane, good morning, give it a chance, Give it
a chance, give it a chance, give it a chance.
Good morning, Give it a you want to give it
a chance, Give it a chance, give it a chance.
Just hey, casey, can you hear me so excited?
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Always nice to see a faca and two eat too, pruduce. Yes,
you gotta beware the IDEs of April, dude. Everybody knows that.
Speaker 3 (00:34):
And here's today's song. Here we go. Oh, no, are
we really doing it? No, it's April fools. I was like,
I deserve it.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
I feel like in my in my on this like
that there's like a psychic debt that I owe every
musician we've ever done this about.
Speaker 3 (00:55):
I was actually thinking this morning, like, well, I.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
Can't speak for you because I think you you're you
have a demeanor that I just feel like radiates positivity
even when being critical. But I wonder if I've been
to sometimes I'm like, am I too mean? When I'm
wearing this chance he hat? Somebody wrote to me. I
don't know if they write to you. I got a
message from somebody that was like, what's your problem with
lin Manuel? Maria and I was like, you know, I
(01:21):
really should reflect like that's an immensely talented dude, shifted
the culture. My daughter loves Hamilton. She can take her
leave so far, but she loves like Mawana.
Speaker 3 (01:33):
She sucks Maui. She's a Mauie stand.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
She always had this and Vivo, which some of those
songs are great, but I'm like, I can't get into
the hole in Manuel. Are we doing a lin Manuel
song today?
Speaker 3 (01:44):
No? No, we're not. We're not. Then let's go unless
unless did he produce? I could be with anyone. I
will tell you you drop an incredible verse.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
I actually don't want to say there's something that he
won anywhere everyone prim Manuel.
Speaker 3 (02:04):
I could just one thing.
Speaker 2 (02:05):
I would say, there's something about, uh, you can't look.
There's things I could give or take a chance about
about my own stuff for sure. And and there's something.
Speaker 1 (02:16):
I thought maybe one day we would do an episode
with like one of your songs and a song I
made to like it, actually.
Speaker 3 (02:21):
Should do that, but maybe we should bring in a guest.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
Yeah for that, Yeah, like that's what we should do,
Like Scott stab or Lynn.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
We can access Lynn, Like I feel like we should
bring in somebody whose song we were maybe potentially a
little bit more unkind to and have them watch one
of my songs and you could subject yourself to it too,
and have them be like this loser with his buck
teeth and his baby.
Speaker 3 (02:55):
You know, maybe they'd say, maybe.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
Today's episode would be good artists for today's episode.
Speaker 3 (03:01):
Oh no, is it somebody we know? Nope, but he's
been mentioned on the podcast and okay, this will give
it away him instantly. But he's in your your blunt rotation.
He's is it James Blunt? Yes, it is.
Speaker 2 (03:15):
And just if I can remember my blunt rotation, my
dream blunt rotation, if I remember correctly, was James Blunt
uh huh, Emily Blunt, uh huh. And I don't know
if I remember the third one, the blunt father. Is
that somebody from WWE? I mean, I don't know who
my third blunt person was, or maybe it was just
(03:36):
the two of them.
Speaker 1 (03:37):
I think it was just the two of them. There
might have just been somebody else. I'm sure you probably
had some.
Speaker 2 (03:42):
Like crazy yeah, yeah, yeah, like a cool thing, probably
a cool thing that I said, you know, it was
probably them and like Dick Cheney.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
Yes, I bet you it was it was probably no,
it was probably Poseidon.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
It might have been Boseidon. Yeah, that actually, honestly, that's
pretty good blunt rotation. You've got music, you've got a thespian,
and then you've got the fucking god of the oshes.
Speaker 1 (04:06):
Also, by the way, it's it's your beautiful. Of course,
it's gotta beautiful.
Speaker 3 (04:10):
It's just fucking hi.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
So this has been on my list for a while
because I do think that this is one that it
really was like a polarizing song when it came out.
Speaker 3 (04:19):
Obviously it charted, I mean, it was an enormously successful song,
huge hit, but it was also parodied. It was did
weird al do one? That's a good question.
Speaker 2 (04:31):
That's actually a badge of honor. That is not a yeah,
that's not a if that did happen? Good for James Blunt,
who I'm sure by all accounts, seems like a pretty lovely.
Speaker 3 (04:41):
Yes, did weird al do one? I don't see one.
Speaker 2 (04:45):
I thought you were saying we'd Oh, you're saying yes,
James Blunt, Yeah, it's nice.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
Yeah, Actually I did find one that I don't know
if it's weird now, but it's your Pitofaul.
Speaker 3 (04:57):
Yeah, this is a big al. This is a different things.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
Weird like it looks like too like low quality and
it's like it's on is it? Is it fan compilation
of weird AL songs like but weird it might not
be so busterfied. Yeah, you're pitiful. It doesn't look like No,
it's not weird Al. It's just a person it's saying
(05:22):
it's a weird it's a weird Al Yankovic version.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
Oh like it's it's inspired by yes, yes, yes, yes yes?
Speaker 3 (05:30):
What is that called a pastiche? A pastiche? Yeah, sure, pastiche.
Yeah that was all that.
Speaker 2 (05:37):
Pastiche De Ambrosio was my roommate in a freshman year.
For it's all right, Sorry, I gotta pull it in.
Usually when I'm this far off by six minutes, we're
gonna have Yeah, I'm gonna be great today, I tell
you this. So I actually I haven't talked to Channa
(05:59):
in a men piece. I need to get back on
the horse, you know. And by the way, sponsor for
today is better Health.
Speaker 3 (06:04):
No, what's that? Is that what it's called? I don't
know what Janet is under, but yeah, I think that
is one. Yeah, they're not our sponsor.
Speaker 1 (06:09):
But yeah, so I'm going to watch the YouTube video. Okay,
it's it's now. There's an updated one in four k.
So I'm pretty pumped for that.
Speaker 2 (06:17):
I think you have to handle the video and I'm
just going to listen to it on the streaming platform
of my choice. Beautiful, I'm going to listen to the
explicit verse.
Speaker 3 (06:27):
Oh, okay, I go listen. Yeah, beautiful, Yeah, beautiful.
Speaker 1 (06:36):
True Okay, Wilmer Wowserama, this is this is a tricky
one for us. I could tell immediately from when we
were listening and making eyes.
Speaker 3 (06:49):
At each other. I know, well, I was making eyes
because you're beautiful. Oh it's true.
Speaker 2 (06:59):
Well, I could start in neither chancy nor anti chance.
I could start with a with an anecdote, personal anecdote.
Let's start without airing anybody's Yeah, let's starting it. Yeah,
me all right, without anecmy skywalk now without sorry with.
Speaker 1 (07:17):
I'm in terminal and I need an anecdote. I'm poison
This is better I'm poisoned than I need an anecdote.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
Well, I don't know if this will help her hurt
with with your pre existing conditch. And by the way,
one of our sponsors today is Metropolis Health or No
so Venom Poisoned Yes and Venom starring Tom Hardy, one
of No Okay.
Speaker 3 (07:46):
So, the producer I believe of this song is Tom
Rothrock Zech correct. Let me look here, good name for
a for a producer he was.
Speaker 2 (07:57):
He was the producer, producer and mixing engineer now Tom Rothrock.
Speaker 3 (08:03):
Prior to what did This Come out?
Speaker 2 (08:04):
Two thousand and six two thousand and four, Tom Rothrock
was the partner of Rob Schnaff and they owned Bongload
Records together, which put out the first beck EP, amongst
other kind of weird fun stonery, you know, kind of
(08:25):
art damaged rock music in the mid nineties. They worked
together on a lot of stuff, including and We're getting
to it twelve minutes in I believe Mike City, suns
by Heat Miser, and at least either or XO Figure
eight by Elliot Smith. For reasons that are not mine
to discuss on the pod, that partnership changes. Rob goes
(08:50):
on to make records with people like Kurt Vile, Cap Power.
Speaker 3 (08:57):
X, the Forever punk band from Los Ange Angelus.
Speaker 2 (09:01):
I'm sure there's a million other people who are like
for some reason, I'm not thinking about the top of
my head that Rob has made.
Speaker 3 (09:06):
Like very cool Bulldozer music.
Speaker 2 (09:08):
Bye, he made two Kevin records, Yes, but I wouldn't
put myself in the upper annals of his. He may
put Your Ghost to Rest.
Speaker 3 (09:15):
Also, Oh, I didn't realize that.
Speaker 2 (09:16):
Yeah, put your Ghost to Rest and Bulldozer and some
singles too. We've probably and he actually we just recorded
a song he mixed five some of Nothing's Real. We've
been collaborators on and off for like.
Speaker 3 (09:26):
Eighteen to twenty years.
Speaker 2 (09:27):
Now.
Speaker 3 (09:28):
I'm a big fan. He's great. Rob did that.
Speaker 2 (09:33):
Tom has done other things, including You're Beautiful by James Blunt,
which is inarguably a bigger, more successful single than anything
that they did together prior with the possible exception of
I Guess Loser by Beck. But that was like a
different kind of single than this was in a way.
I mean, that's still around, and you could argue, inarguably
(09:57):
the cultural imprint of Beck that starts with that song
is of a different caliber and order than the James
Blunt experience. But I pointed out to say, interesting thing
where the roads splits, and I definitely think there's a
surface level like well, Elliott's I'm sure James Blunt was
a huge Elliot Smith fan, and it's like he's a
(10:17):
singer songwriter quote unquote, he played acoustic guitar, his songs
were but it's like, to me, they're not even the
same kind of music in any way besides this, So
that's just a little thing I was thinking. I was like,
I hadn't thought of that in twenty years. I'm like, oh, right,
this was the dude that used to work on all
that Elliott stuff with Rob. Anyway, there's my anecdotis to
(10:39):
start us.
Speaker 1 (10:39):
Down, No, I like that, and it's that is that's
enlightening because we've talked about this. But you know, you
could be a you could be a Beatles or a
Rolling Stones and go completely different directions, right, and you know,
you could have a four piece band and not sound
like any of those, you know. And and just because
(11:00):
it's it sounds like it looks like it's a similar
genre doesn't mean it's it's indicative of that what came
before and totally and that's really interesting with this because
on paper, yeah, like it's it looks like it's an
Elliott Smith kind of thing, but it's really lacking a
lot for me.
Speaker 2 (11:19):
Well, what I think with that with sorry, I just
without turning this into a you know, fucking Casey is
subjected to what Janet has to get every two weeks
on the rig, which is Kevin just unspooling about Elliott Smith.
But I'll just briefly say what I think this kind
of music, over the arc of my life as a
listener has proved for me is that the it's not
(11:44):
it's less about what James Blunt is lacking in a
way than it is about what makes people like Elliott
Smith exceptional. Because to me, what James Blunt and I
want to kick it back to you because you're about to,
but what I leave we're about to go in a
similar direction with this is like what I think is
why I personally, as a person who is a singer
(12:08):
who sings the songs he writes, or a singer songwriter,
It's why I've always bristled at that genre description. It's
because this is what fucking people are thinking of when
you say someone's a singer songwriter. There's like twelve great
ones who've ever been called that, and then there's like
a thout a million things that are like guy that
(12:31):
are fucking mad. That's what inspired Matthew David is it is.
Speaker 1 (12:35):
It's because because I actually give a lot of other
bands that I don't even like more credit than this.
I you know, I give Train, who we covered in
the past, and.
Speaker 3 (12:44):
We like Tylo Junior. Dude.
Speaker 1 (12:45):
Yeah, I think his lyricism blows James Blunt You're beautiful
out of.
Speaker 3 (12:51):
The water, like a chance hot Anti.
Speaker 1 (12:54):
But it's so coffee shop open mic, like first like yeah,
I look.
Speaker 3 (12:59):
In your eye, I said goodbye.
Speaker 1 (13:01):
It's like it's just like the first it's and without
like a longer part to that, like that's the that's
the end, that's that's half of an entire verse of
those lyrics like what a waste of like you're saying nothing,
you know, And it's like the video is actually even
like more compelling. I mean, it's bizarre, and I think
I don't know, like so I really kind of want
(13:23):
to get to the bottom of how part of it
is that it's just so accessible that's why it does
so well.
Speaker 3 (13:28):
It's so simple.
Speaker 1 (13:29):
It's like there's really not there's no ambiguity with it
at all.
Speaker 3 (13:32):
And I think that there's a ton of you know, young.
Speaker 1 (13:37):
Listeners and old listeners that just want something really simple
that has nothing to do with you know, the world
or politics or anything like that, just wants something just
to throw on. It's it's dentist waiting room music, and
I think there's a lot of world that wants this.
But beyond that, I mean, we talk about the like
we talk about bridges a lot. This one's really bad.
Speaker 3 (14:00):
It's just it changes slightly and he goes.
Speaker 1 (14:02):
No no no no no no no nah, and then
it goes right back to the chorus.
Speaker 3 (14:20):
Yeah beautiful.
Speaker 2 (14:23):
Well, listen, you just said so much that I would
love to like either ditto or iterate on it.
Speaker 3 (14:30):
We can go no you really? People, Please, people, please
look up Matthew David's on you Tube.
Speaker 1 (14:42):
There's an episode where number I think it's episode like
we did this five part series in my old apartment
and Kevin's playing himself and I'm playing Matthew Davids. It's
number five typeing like Matthew David's vlog Kevin done five
or something.
Speaker 3 (14:57):
I on your song.
Speaker 2 (15:01):
It's the fun dude. It's bringing schnapfbag into it. I
remember showing him that wow and he was like, like
belly laughing, like when just the things you're doing.
Speaker 3 (15:17):
Anyway, I won't people should watch it. But no, first
of all, we can go with the bridge.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
We can start structurally and then go back to the
superstructural thing you were talking about.
Speaker 3 (15:27):
It's a cheat. The bridge is a cheat.
Speaker 2 (15:29):
And I say that as a person who I really
I think there are I love. There's a particular kind
of bridge that I actually really love that's kind of
unde employed in like what is now kind of like
modern song structure, which is like I'm into like a
really short bridge sometimes like I'm thinking of and again,
(15:49):
sorry I recognize, but if you use words like exceptional
and ideal, there's a reason why I'm thinking of like
the bridge in Baby Britain Elliott Smith's song on x SO.
It's literally like it's like he kind of cycles through
one chord progression, maybe one of each chord as as
this melody builds, and then it breaks out into an
(16:10):
instrumental section over the chorus chords. But the bridge itself
might be ten seconds long into that instrumental and is
the instrument is the instrumentals over the chorus chords, like
he's playing piano melody over the chorus.
Speaker 3 (16:24):
Chords, but it's great and it's well employed.
Speaker 2 (16:27):
And then of course there's excellent like long bridges that
are really like like suspension bridges that are really really
strong and well executed. This is neither. It's a short bridge.
And also, by the way, I'm a big fan of
like the bridge that's not a bridge at all, the like,
here's the guitar solo played, here's the vocal line played
on guitar over That's cool with me too, if that's
(16:51):
the next right thing. This is kind of like the
worst of all worlds where it's just like he just
took and it actually in a way that's funny. I'm
like contradicting my off Momentarily. I do these songwriting workshops,
and there is one thing when you're trying to like
people who are just kind of figuring out how to
approach structure. Sometimes I am like, well, yo, if your
song is in the key of C, super like easy
(17:14):
cheat codes, just like write your first ten songs. Is like,
so all right, if you decide the verse is starting
on C, great, then let's make the chorus start on
F and then let's make the bridge start on a
minor you've used the same four chords, but you just
spin the cycle and now you've got three distinct parts
(17:35):
out of those four chords. That's really great and sometimes
like wonderful songs can be written that way. But even
that's not what this is. In a weird way, this
actually starts, I think, on the same chord as the chorus,
but he goes up to the minor instead of to
the major, and he does that maybe like two or
(17:56):
three times and just goes like like you said, like yea,
by then we're back.
Speaker 3 (18:00):
To the course and there was dynamic shift. No, he's
like a nothing nothing salad like like.
Speaker 1 (18:05):
I like, I wouldn't even mind if like things more
things cut out or built up, But it's just the arrangement.
Speaker 2 (18:12):
Bring away the yeah, actually like bring away the drums
there and that part becomes fifty percent more interesting. Yeah, like,
oh that's cool. They like dropped and now we like
build back into the course. Anyway, I agree with you
structurally about that, And yes, this is what I think
of when I think of which now maybe like dated
antiquated stuff, but like sort of Starbucks core is like
(18:34):
and I think what's interesting is you sort of.
Speaker 1 (18:36):
Said they're just to real quick to unpack that go
because I think a lot of people know, but like
some people don't. There was a time where like Starbucks
was a taste maker and was putting records at the
front when you check out, you would see artists. A
friend of ours, Ingrid Michaelson, is that kind of artist.
Speaker 2 (18:54):
I bought her record in a Starbucks and listened to
it for a twenty hour drive. Yeah, happily, by the way,
but she was her and Me without You and the
only two CDs I had. But I brought hers in
a Starbucks in like New Mexico.
Speaker 3 (19:06):
Or and she it was like that.
Speaker 1 (19:09):
It was like Gray's Anatomy, Like she had a song
on the scrubs stuff. So it's like stuff like that
could make an artist a Starbucks, like your your CD
at Starbucks break You. And that's like there's a genre that.
Speaker 3 (19:23):
Fits into it.
Speaker 1 (19:24):
That's like, that's why it's like outside of a singer songwriter,
another genre that like fits that as like coffee shop
you know, listening or whatever, you know, which.
Speaker 2 (19:32):
They have a station on on serious XM radio. That's like,
and I say all this, by the way, because I
am a songwriter who uses the acoustic guitar a lot
so write songs and features it as an instrument. A
lot of his recordings, some of my recording skew louder,
some of them don't. When I put out Put Your
(19:53):
Ghost to Wrists, we absolutely pitched songs from that to
Coffeehouse on serious. We had I think a few places
copies of that record in Starbucks. That's the thing too,
Like you could go in and sometimes you'd find like
a rylo Kylie record or Shin's records. They're like I'm
wide awake, It's morning by Bride, Like there was like
indie rock stuff that touched up against singer song and.
Speaker 1 (20:15):
A could a modest mouse record there, Like I could
definitely see some some stuff that like went pop. That's yes,
kind of started from a I'm pretty sure you could
buy Basement on the Hill in there when that record
came out posthumously, which is funny because that's like a
very weird, sort of schizophrenic record, But that's that one.
The timing was right that it was like, let's have
an Elliott Smith record in Starbucks, but it's typically a
(20:38):
Nora Jones, yes, and those artists, by the way, ingrid
Nora Jones they're like superior. But what I kind of
mean is like, and you nailed it in the initial thing.
It's almost like a flavor more than it is like
something concrete. There's something about this is what I so
the reason why on fucking Friends the joke about Phoebe
(20:58):
in the coffee shop playing her songs or whatever, this
is like it's like a particular kind of like.
Speaker 2 (21:05):
Milk toast inane. Yeah, like there's there's what I was
thinking about the lyrics too. It's like, to me, you're right,
there's nothing here. Why this song's huge is because there
was he The chorus is undeniable. It's simplicity works in
its favor, and who doesn't. It's a it's a slam dunk,
like you're beautiful, You're beautiful? Like who doesn't want to
(21:29):
hear that as an object of desire or affection? Who
doesn't want to hear that as a person pining after
someone in an unrequited way? But what I was thinking
was interesting as I read through the lyrics again, and
this might veer into chancy. I wonder if this is
like a grossly misunderstood song from a lyrical perspective, on
(21:52):
the order of like every breath you take or something
like that. So in the video, our protagonist removes the
contents of his pockets, takes off as half his clothing,
which is also like eye candy for whatever you know.
People are like, oh, cool guy with blue eyes and
no shirt on. But like, he then jumps off the
(22:12):
side of a boat, which made me laugh because it
reminded me of If you don't know this, please look up.
The video is stranged by guns n' Roses, where Axel Rose.
They spent like seven million dollars on this video in
nineteen ninety one, and Axel like jumps off a fucking
boat and swims with dolphins and shit, it's really worth
your time. But oh, I hadn't seen it. I hadn't
thought of it in a minute. It's the last video
from the two user Illusion records. It might have even
(22:34):
been like ninety three because those records had a long life.
But anyway, reading through this again, I'm like, is this
I don't end trigger warning? Is this a song about suicide?
Is what I'm thinking as I'm reading this, And I'll
tell you listeners why he sees this person and he's like,
she's beautiful, she's an angel. She smiled at me, but
(22:56):
she was with another man. But I won't lose sleep
on that, because I've got a plan.
Speaker 3 (23:01):
Ooh. And then the song. You think the plan.
Speaker 2 (23:04):
Might be about how he's going to win her away
from the other but throughout the song he's saying things
like I don't think I'll ever see her again. We
shared a moment that will last till the end. I
laughed at that because I was like, till the end
of what she's not gonna remember dog? And then I'm
like to the end of the song. But then I'm like, yo,
he's got a plan. He's emptied the contents of his
(23:24):
pockets out onto this boat where we see no other people,
and he jumps off the side of it's like an
ocean liner. It's like a giant thing into the middle
of the ocean. Half Naked's gotta be cold. Unless he's
an Olympic swimmer, James is going to be in trouble.
And then the very end of the song, by the way,
the lyrics on the streaming platform of my choice for
(23:44):
the bridge say ba la la na ba la la
na ba la la na nah.
Speaker 3 (23:50):
Oh, that actually makes it a lot better. That's makes
a lot of sense, and then he says at the
very end, there must be an angel with a smile
on her face when she thought up that I should
be with you. But it's time to face the truth.
I will never be with you. Now.
Speaker 2 (24:07):
Maybe I'm stretching here, but something about the video, the
choice of the visual in the video. I'm gonna anti
chance zag on myself for a moment about the video
and just say it's effectively a remake of Yellow by
cold Play, which came out fucking two years before this
or whatever.
Speaker 3 (24:25):
But I do.
Speaker 2 (24:26):
Wonder as I read through it, and again I'm all
over the place because I really don't like the song,
but there's an anti chance moment in there too. I
kind of hate the fucking swear, not because I don't
swearing's fine, but this is such a milk toast song.
And I've been accused of this actually too. I remember,
like you remember the critical things that are said about you.
I feel like the Village Voice once said about like
(24:47):
songs of mine that were a bit more in a
folk rock vein, like the swearing is meant to like
almost like I was trying to like rough something up
that wasn't rough and maybe that's true. Maybe I'm deserving
of that criticism. I've always felt like it was an
Maybe he feels the same. It was like an aspect
of what's the word, like ernest expression? To me, this
(25:07):
one feels so incongruous and unearned.
Speaker 3 (25:10):
Yeah, he does it.
Speaker 1 (25:11):
I like a well placed curse in a song that
it's a typical. We mentioned them before, like Rylo Kylie,
like a Jenny Lewis drops a great f bomb here
and there. Yeah, it's always kind of it's kind of fun.
It does rough it up in a way.
Speaker 2 (25:24):
But Isaac Brock does that in some way. Connor and
Elliott do that in some ways that I think are effective.
Speaker 1 (25:30):
But yeah, yeah, but this doesn't this also, Yeah, it
doesn't seem earned. But can I respond to the to
the possible all of it and themselves?
Speaker 3 (25:43):
Yeah, my stiff. I wasn't supposed to say the S
word trigger warning S word, but.
Speaker 1 (25:48):
I think the uh, the angel thing remind me of
that too. You keep talking about I see an angel,
but then I'm like, oh, wait, because is he already dead?
Speaker 2 (25:58):
I don't know, so maybe anti chancing because we're also
like whatever you were going for here, it wasn't clear.
Speaker 1 (26:04):
We're searching, we're really searching for chances. So I found
it at the bottom of this. I think you're on
the same thing for for lyrics, the genius thing at
(26:25):
the bottom it's he was on Oprah and Blunt told
Oprah it's about seeing my ex girlfriend on the subway
in London with her new man who I didn't know existed.
She and I caught eyes and lived a lifetime in
that moment. Oh my God, do anything about it?
Speaker 2 (26:41):
Oh well, listen, God bless James. You know that to
me also indicates like when we were talking before about
like the difference between you know, like Beck and James Blunt.
I don't remember. We got to look this up. I'd
love to see it. If they did Loser on Oprah,
that would be awesome.
Speaker 1 (27:01):
But yeah, I mean, well, another parallel, like I was thinking,
is like John Mayer, and I think John Mayer can
write circles around this and it gives and like when
you compare this to like like I was mentioning train
before when you or even actually like with Phoebe from Friends,
(27:21):
like you mentioned she's so much more quirky like her.
I would take her songs. There's an artist from Staten
Island that's like a coffee shop sort of artists who are.
Speaker 3 (27:31):
Named Phoebe Blue.
Speaker 1 (27:32):
I don't know if you ever, but no, no, she
has this mix of things right, like there's a lot
of good that comes out of of coffee shops. Yeah,
you'll get you'll get artists that are just so uniquely
themselves that it's not mainstream.
Speaker 3 (27:49):
It's you know, and it's.
Speaker 1 (27:51):
But it's like, I'm so excited to hear what songs
she's going to sing next, because first of all, she's
got the like this this like thick New York accent,
like in the almost like like a lou read way.
She approaches songs in such a unique place. She she's
always like the lyricism is always really cool in avant
guard and and so like it's it's I would say
(28:13):
that like the the Phoebe, it's funny, it's two Phoebees.
The Phoebe from Friends is like it's sort of a
parody of that of the quirky New York, New York
singer songwriter that's like at coffee shops. But what and
whereas like that impression I used to do, like Matthew
Davids is more like what we're talking about, which is like, yes,
kind of like every song feels like it's the first
(28:36):
song they ever wrote and there was like no, you know,
and that's what that's what this song feels like. It's
like it's like his first song. He took no notes
and he like released it and it blew up, and
then like he didn't learn a lesson and he's like
always going to write that. I mean, I haven't listened
to his other material. He may have like.
Speaker 3 (28:51):
Evolved and maybe like maybe this was a keep it
simple stupid kind of thing, right, which, yeah, that's a
chance I'll give it. Is it worked and you kept
it so simple. Yeah, But I think there's a way
to keep.
Speaker 1 (29:04):
It simple but also keeping of course, there is some
kind of fingerprint. There's no course there is.
Speaker 2 (29:10):
It's it's fucking I mean, there's a million examples of that.
I the ones I'm off the top of my head
are going to be ones that like it's calling on
the same references I always call on. But there is
definitely a way to keep it simple and not have
it be this, you know, whether that's whether that smells
like teen Spirit, which is four chords over and over again,
(29:32):
whether that's like I think of I don't know, like
most actually super successful pop songs.
Speaker 1 (29:39):
Green Day stuff, I mean, but Green Yeah, like they'll
do so much within the they're like what's simple sounding.
Speaker 2 (29:45):
I would also argue with Green Day there for me,
their charm has had an inverse arc to their expansion
and and uh and their expansion and and and like
embrace of like more complexity.
Speaker 3 (30:02):
Like to me, I was thinking of Green Day a
song like she or a song like Yeah.
Speaker 2 (30:06):
Like those songs to me, that's and like think of
I'm thinking of these are all rock songs, and I
would like for our chance just like it, like think
about I do think with like a folk rock punk
simple like the Ramones. I don't know, there's what twenty
classic Ramone songs that are effectively the same thing over
(30:28):
and over again, and I kind of could hear them
at any time and be like, that's awesome.
Speaker 3 (30:33):
You're so right.
Speaker 1 (30:34):
Ramones' is a great parallel because it's it is that is,
keep it simple, but it's fast and it's provocative. The
lyricism is it's much cooler, you know.
Speaker 2 (30:43):
Yeah, but in this arena what I'm thinking about too,
And it's funny you mentioned. Yeah, Like that's the thing too.
Everything is like you're trying to guard against the bastardization
of something that is actually cool. And when you're what
you're talking about, I'm thinking of like this sidewalk Cafe,
which I don't even know if it's still there in
the Lower East Side. I'm thinking about like that anti
(31:05):
folk scene that like eventually spat out the Moldy Peaches,
which that becomes huge through that Juno movie. But like
that stuff, and like Jme Jamie Searman, the songwriter I've
played with a ton over the years, who who I
think these are? Those were like people who came up
in that world, the humans from Staten Island. They were
the first people I ever saw play at the sidewalk,
(31:28):
Like I went to the Sidewalk Cafe when I was
like seventeen to see them play. They did that anti
fi there was a name of the open mic that
I'll remember after we're done recording, but it was this
anti folks scene that they did there. That stuff was
all super quirky's a word, but also I would say
like idiosyncratic, like it had some it was funny and
(31:49):
it was chwee, but it also had some like heft
to it.
Speaker 3 (31:51):
It was it was art.
Speaker 2 (31:53):
They were artists, and I think and some of them
became like more successful and like in an entertainment arena.
But that kind of coffee house thing which is almost
connected to like I don't know, like the folkies and
the sixties in the lower in the West Village or
like you know, beat Nicks reading these kind of out
like that's one thing. Then there's this other thing. And
(32:16):
the thing that we haven't said explicitly that is to
me what Matthew David's was, the like the what you
got exactly about that that made it so fucking funny
to me? And what this is to a te This
music suffers maybe above all l all its other sins
(32:41):
and in comparison with all other genres, it's faux depth.
It sounds like it's meaningful, emotionally resonant, deep because it's slow,
because it's it's gentle, because it goes from maje to minor,
and because it's and that's why I want to look
(33:07):
for this potential other meaning in the lyrics, because the
truth is, if it's not there, it's such a banal expression.
Even the fucking story he told on Oprah Winfrey is
more interesting than the song. He wrote about the story,
and I think it's so funny, Like I'm thinking about,
what's another thing that these people have covered to death
(33:27):
that's become like the most it's become like a global
standard is Hallelujah. And in Hallelujah, he's kind of actually
at times making fun of that in a way in
that it goes like this, the fourth, the fifth, the
minor fall, the major lift, like he's actually he's and
he's And of course what's brilliant about that is it's
(33:50):
what he's doing literally as he's singing that song that
has been beaten to death, and yet when I contemplated,
I'm still like, well that's it's a fucking major accomplishment.
Speaker 3 (34:02):
Every part of that song is Michael Jordan. It's it's impeccable.
It's also amazing.
Speaker 2 (34:07):
That's that story where him and maybe this is already
even told in the podcast, the story where Dylan's like,
I really like that hell you song? How long did
take you to write that fucking dick? How long did
it take you to write that? And letters like well, Bob,
it took me the better part of seven years to
write that on and off ollow seven years Wow. And
(34:27):
then like Letter Cohn's like, well, how long did it
take you to write Knocking on Heaven's Door? It's so profound?
And Bob's like how long is that song? And Leonard
co was like, it's like three and a half minutes.
He's it took me like seven minutes.
Speaker 3 (34:39):
That's so funny.
Speaker 1 (34:40):
I want you to do a side podcast that is
just Elliett. Sorry Leonard and Bob Dylan, you do both parts.
Speaker 3 (34:49):
You just go back and forth.
Speaker 2 (34:50):
It's like Andrew Scott's One Man Von Yet pay off Broadway.
They're also a sponsor on this as well. I want
to give a shout out to Uncle Vanya Andrew Scott.
Speaker 3 (35:01):
So I want to start landing the plane because it's.
Speaker 2 (35:04):
There's a plane that there's a plane that's fixing the
land on my apartment right now.
Speaker 3 (35:08):
Case you hear that could be the end for old
k Z I G. Will you have this moment that
will last till the end with me? Yes? But you're
fucking high.
Speaker 1 (35:24):
So he didn't talk about it singing because I think
it's I think vocally like you know, it's my life?
Is He like, it's that's that doesn't What does.
Speaker 3 (35:34):
That make you think of? What is the first thing
clear your brain? Do what you just did again and
tell me what it makes you think. Hey, uh, gollum gollum.
Speaker 2 (35:43):
Is I was gonna say that justin Timberlake, Jimmy Fallon, Oh,
Gibbs Brothers bit from l Oh Yes.
Speaker 3 (35:52):
Once Australian, it's an Australian thing. Oh, I know Australian people,
they don't sing like that.
Speaker 1 (36:00):
I like how much Coffee Shop era we talked about
because it sounds like this do make me appreciate more
of that of that stuff. Yeah, there is a lot
of craftsmanship around that and this is like kind of
lacking a lot of it.
Speaker 3 (36:14):
One hundred percent.
Speaker 2 (36:16):
And I'm maybe this is just going to sound judgmental
in our as we in our last thirty seconds, but
to me, it's like, it's interesting that with the capitol
built by working with a generational artist like Elliott Smith,
one guy goes on to make music by more radiosyncratic
people that were interested in that side of that coin,
and one guy made this.
Speaker 3 (36:36):
Is he out of your blunt rotation? Tom Rothrock?
Speaker 2 (36:39):
I don't want to put him on blast, but honestly,
in the last twelve I'll say he's ows James Now
James is in Rothney, He's still in and rap rock,
Woke Up rock, rock, rock, rock, rap rock and BLOWSTI
Live
Give it a chance, give it a chance, give it
a chane, good morning, give it a chance, Give it
a chance, give it a chance, give it a chance.
Good morning, Give it a you want to give it
a chance, Give it a chance, give it a chance.
Just hey, casey, can you hear me so excited?
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Always nice to see a faca and two eat too, pruduce. Yes,
you gotta beware the IDEs of April, dude. Everybody knows that.
Speaker 3 (00:34):
And here's today's song. Here we go. Oh, no, are
we really doing it? No, it's April fools. I was like,
I deserve it.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
I feel like in my in my on this like
that there's like a psychic debt that I owe every
musician we've ever done this about.
Speaker 3 (00:55):
I was actually thinking this morning, like, well, I.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
Can't speak for you because I think you you're you
have a demeanor that I just feel like radiates positivity
even when being critical. But I wonder if I've been
to sometimes I'm like, am I too mean? When I'm
wearing this chance he hat? Somebody wrote to me. I
don't know if they write to you. I got a
message from somebody that was like, what's your problem with
lin Manuel? Maria and I was like, you know, I
(01:21):
really should reflect like that's an immensely talented dude, shifted
the culture. My daughter loves Hamilton. She can take her
leave so far, but she loves like Mawana.
Speaker 3 (01:33):
She sucks Maui. She's a Mauie stand.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
She always had this and Vivo, which some of those
songs are great, but I'm like, I can't get into
the hole in Manuel. Are we doing a lin Manuel
song today?
Speaker 3 (01:44):
No? No, we're not. We're not. Then let's go unless
unless did he produce? I could be with anyone. I
will tell you you drop an incredible verse.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
I actually don't want to say there's something that he
won anywhere everyone prim Manuel.
Speaker 3 (02:04):
I could just one thing.
Speaker 2 (02:05):
I would say, there's something about, uh, you can't look.
There's things I could give or take a chance about
about my own stuff for sure. And and there's something.
Speaker 1 (02:16):
I thought maybe one day we would do an episode
with like one of your songs and a song I
made to like it, actually.
Speaker 3 (02:21):
Should do that, but maybe we should bring in a guest.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
Yeah for that, Yeah, like that's what we should do,
Like Scott stab or Lynn.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
We can access Lynn, Like I feel like we should
bring in somebody whose song we were maybe potentially a
little bit more unkind to and have them watch one
of my songs and you could subject yourself to it too,
and have them be like this loser with his buck
teeth and his baby.
Speaker 3 (02:55):
You know, maybe they'd say, maybe.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
Today's episode would be good artists for today's episode.
Speaker 3 (03:01):
Oh no, is it somebody we know? Nope, but he's
been mentioned on the podcast and okay, this will give
it away him instantly. But he's in your your blunt rotation.
He's is it James Blunt? Yes, it is.
Speaker 2 (03:15):
And just if I can remember my blunt rotation, my
dream blunt rotation, if I remember correctly, was James Blunt
uh huh, Emily Blunt, uh huh. And I don't know
if I remember the third one, the blunt father. Is
that somebody from WWE? I mean, I don't know who
my third blunt person was, or maybe it was just
(03:36):
the two of them.
Speaker 1 (03:37):
I think it was just the two of them. There
might have just been somebody else. I'm sure you probably
had some.
Speaker 2 (03:42):
Like crazy yeah, yeah, yeah, like a cool thing, probably
a cool thing that I said, you know, it was
probably them and like Dick Cheney.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
Yes, I bet you it was it was probably no,
it was probably Poseidon.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
It might have been Boseidon. Yeah, that actually, honestly, that's
pretty good blunt rotation. You've got music, you've got a thespian,
and then you've got the fucking god of the oshes.
Speaker 1 (04:06):
Also, by the way, it's it's your beautiful. Of course,
it's gotta beautiful.
Speaker 3 (04:10):
It's just fucking hi.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
So this has been on my list for a while
because I do think that this is one that it
really was like a polarizing song when it came out.
Speaker 3 (04:19):
Obviously it charted, I mean, it was an enormously successful song,
huge hit, but it was also parodied. It was did
weird al do one? That's a good question.
Speaker 2 (04:31):
That's actually a badge of honor. That is not a yeah,
that's not a if that did happen? Good for James Blunt,
who I'm sure by all accounts, seems like a pretty lovely.
Speaker 3 (04:41):
Yes, did weird al do one? I don't see one.
Speaker 2 (04:45):
I thought you were saying we'd Oh, you're saying yes,
James Blunt, Yeah, it's nice.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
Yeah, Actually I did find one that I don't know
if it's weird now, but it's your Pitofaul.
Speaker 3 (04:57):
Yeah, this is a big al. This is a different things.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
Weird like it looks like too like low quality and
it's like it's on is it? Is it fan compilation
of weird AL songs like but weird it might not
be so busterfied. Yeah, you're pitiful. It doesn't look like No,
it's not weird Al. It's just a person it's saying
(05:22):
it's a weird it's a weird Al Yankovic version.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
Oh like it's it's inspired by yes, yes, yes, yes yes?
Speaker 3 (05:30):
What is that called a pastiche? A pastiche? Yeah, sure, pastiche.
Yeah that was all that.
Speaker 2 (05:37):
Pastiche De Ambrosio was my roommate in a freshman year.
For it's all right, Sorry, I gotta pull it in.
Usually when I'm this far off by six minutes, we're
gonna have Yeah, I'm gonna be great today, I tell
you this. So I actually I haven't talked to Channa
(05:59):
in a men piece. I need to get back on
the horse, you know. And by the way, sponsor for
today is better Health.
Speaker 3 (06:04):
No, what's that? Is that what it's called? I don't
know what Janet is under, but yeah, I think that
is one. Yeah, they're not our sponsor.
Speaker 1 (06:09):
But yeah, so I'm going to watch the YouTube video. Okay,
it's it's now. There's an updated one in four k.
So I'm pretty pumped for that.
Speaker 2 (06:17):
I think you have to handle the video and I'm
just going to listen to it on the streaming platform
of my choice. Beautiful, I'm going to listen to the
explicit verse.
Speaker 3 (06:27):
Oh, okay, I go listen. Yeah, beautiful, Yeah, beautiful.
Speaker 1 (06:36):
True Okay, Wilmer Wowserama, this is this is a tricky
one for us. I could tell immediately from when we
were listening and making eyes.
Speaker 3 (06:49):
At each other. I know, well, I was making eyes
because you're beautiful. Oh it's true.
Speaker 2 (06:59):
Well, I could start in neither chancy nor anti chance.
I could start with a with an anecdote, personal anecdote.
Let's start without airing anybody's Yeah, let's starting it. Yeah,
me all right, without anecmy skywalk now without sorry with.
Speaker 1 (07:17):
I'm in terminal and I need an anecdote. I'm poison
This is better I'm poisoned than I need an anecdote.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
Well, I don't know if this will help her hurt
with with your pre existing conditch. And by the way,
one of our sponsors today is Metropolis Health or No
so Venom Poisoned Yes and Venom starring Tom Hardy, one
of No Okay.
Speaker 3 (07:46):
So, the producer I believe of this song is Tom
Rothrock Zech correct. Let me look here, good name for
a for a producer he was.
Speaker 2 (07:57):
He was the producer, producer and mixing engineer now Tom Rothrock.
Speaker 3 (08:03):
Prior to what did This Come out?
Speaker 2 (08:04):
Two thousand and six two thousand and four, Tom Rothrock
was the partner of Rob Schnaff and they owned Bongload
Records together, which put out the first beck EP, amongst
other kind of weird fun stonery, you know, kind of
(08:25):
art damaged rock music in the mid nineties. They worked
together on a lot of stuff, including and We're getting
to it twelve minutes in I believe Mike City, suns
by Heat Miser, and at least either or XO Figure
eight by Elliot Smith. For reasons that are not mine
to discuss on the pod, that partnership changes. Rob goes
(08:50):
on to make records with people like Kurt Vile, Cap Power.
Speaker 3 (08:57):
X, the Forever punk band from Los Ange Angelus.
Speaker 2 (09:01):
I'm sure there's a million other people who are like
for some reason, I'm not thinking about the top of
my head that Rob has made.
Speaker 3 (09:06):
Like very cool Bulldozer music.
Speaker 2 (09:08):
Bye, he made two Kevin records, Yes, but I wouldn't
put myself in the upper annals of his. He may
put Your Ghost to Rest.
Speaker 3 (09:15):
Also, Oh, I didn't realize that.
Speaker 2 (09:16):
Yeah, put your Ghost to Rest and Bulldozer and some
singles too. We've probably and he actually we just recorded
a song he mixed five some of Nothing's Real. We've
been collaborators on and off for like.
Speaker 3 (09:26):
Eighteen to twenty years.
Speaker 2 (09:27):
Now.
Speaker 3 (09:28):
I'm a big fan. He's great. Rob did that.
Speaker 2 (09:33):
Tom has done other things, including You're Beautiful by James Blunt,
which is inarguably a bigger, more successful single than anything
that they did together prior with the possible exception of
I Guess Loser by Beck. But that was like a
different kind of single than this was in a way.
I mean, that's still around, and you could argue, inarguably
(09:57):
the cultural imprint of Beck that starts with that song
is of a different caliber and order than the James
Blunt experience. But I pointed out to say, interesting thing
where the roads splits, and I definitely think there's a
surface level like well, Elliott's I'm sure James Blunt was
a huge Elliot Smith fan, and it's like he's a
(10:17):
singer songwriter quote unquote, he played acoustic guitar, his songs
were but it's like, to me, they're not even the
same kind of music in any way besides this, So
that's just a little thing I was thinking. I was like,
I hadn't thought of that in twenty years. I'm like, oh, right,
this was the dude that used to work on all
that Elliott stuff with Rob. Anyway, there's my anecdotis to
(10:39):
start us.
Speaker 1 (10:39):
Down, No, I like that, and it's that is that's
enlightening because we've talked about this. But you know, you
could be a you could be a Beatles or a
Rolling Stones and go completely different directions, right, and you know,
you could have a four piece band and not sound
like any of those, you know. And and just because
(11:00):
it's it sounds like it looks like it's a similar
genre doesn't mean it's it's indicative of that what came
before and totally and that's really interesting with this because
on paper, yeah, like it's it looks like it's an
Elliott Smith kind of thing, but it's really lacking a
lot for me.
Speaker 2 (11:19):
Well, what I think with that with sorry, I just
without turning this into a you know, fucking Casey is
subjected to what Janet has to get every two weeks
on the rig, which is Kevin just unspooling about Elliott Smith.
But I'll just briefly say what I think this kind
of music, over the arc of my life as a
listener has proved for me is that the it's not
(11:44):
it's less about what James Blunt is lacking in a
way than it is about what makes people like Elliott
Smith exceptional. Because to me, what James Blunt and I
want to kick it back to you because you're about to,
but what I leave we're about to go in a
similar direction with this is like what I think is
why I personally, as a person who is a singer
(12:08):
who sings the songs he writes, or a singer songwriter,
It's why I've always bristled at that genre description. It's
because this is what fucking people are thinking of when
you say someone's a singer songwriter. There's like twelve great
ones who've ever been called that, and then there's like
a thout a million things that are like guy that
(12:31):
are fucking mad. That's what inspired Matthew David is it is.
Speaker 1 (12:35):
It's because because I actually give a lot of other
bands that I don't even like more credit than this.
I you know, I give Train, who we covered in
the past, and.
Speaker 3 (12:44):
We like Tylo Junior. Dude.
Speaker 1 (12:45):
Yeah, I think his lyricism blows James Blunt You're beautiful
out of.
Speaker 3 (12:51):
The water, like a chance hot Anti.
Speaker 1 (12:54):
But it's so coffee shop open mic, like first like yeah,
I look.
Speaker 3 (12:59):
In your eye, I said goodbye.
Speaker 1 (13:01):
It's like it's just like the first it's and without
like a longer part to that, like that's the that's
the end, that's that's half of an entire verse of
those lyrics like what a waste of like you're saying nothing,
you know, And it's like the video is actually even
like more compelling. I mean, it's bizarre, and I think
I don't know, like so I really kind of want
(13:23):
to get to the bottom of how part of it
is that it's just so accessible that's why it does
so well.
Speaker 3 (13:28):
It's so simple.
Speaker 1 (13:29):
It's like there's really not there's no ambiguity with it
at all.
Speaker 3 (13:32):
And I think that there's a ton of you know, young.
Speaker 1 (13:37):
Listeners and old listeners that just want something really simple
that has nothing to do with you know, the world
or politics or anything like that, just wants something just
to throw on. It's it's dentist waiting room music, and
I think there's a lot of world that wants this.
But beyond that, I mean, we talk about the like
we talk about bridges a lot. This one's really bad.
Speaker 3 (14:00):
It's just it changes slightly and he goes.
Speaker 1 (14:02):
No no no no no no no nah, and then
it goes right back to the chorus.
Speaker 3 (14:20):
Yeah beautiful.
Speaker 2 (14:23):
Well, listen, you just said so much that I would
love to like either ditto or iterate on it.
Speaker 3 (14:30):
We can go no you really? People, Please, people, please
look up Matthew David's on you Tube.
Speaker 1 (14:42):
There's an episode where number I think it's episode like
we did this five part series in my old apartment
and Kevin's playing himself and I'm playing Matthew Davids. It's
number five typeing like Matthew David's vlog Kevin done five
or something.
Speaker 3 (14:57):
I on your song.
Speaker 2 (15:01):
It's the fun dude. It's bringing schnapfbag into it. I
remember showing him that wow and he was like, like
belly laughing, like when just the things you're doing.
Speaker 3 (15:17):
Anyway, I won't people should watch it. But no, first
of all, we can go with the bridge.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
We can start structurally and then go back to the
superstructural thing you were talking about.
Speaker 3 (15:27):
It's a cheat. The bridge is a cheat.
Speaker 2 (15:29):
And I say that as a person who I really
I think there are I love. There's a particular kind
of bridge that I actually really love that's kind of
unde employed in like what is now kind of like
modern song structure, which is like I'm into like a
really short bridge sometimes like I'm thinking of and again,
(15:49):
sorry I recognize, but if you use words like exceptional
and ideal, there's a reason why I'm thinking of like
the bridge in Baby Britain Elliott Smith's song on x SO.
It's literally like it's like he kind of cycles through
one chord progression, maybe one of each chord as as
this melody builds, and then it breaks out into an
(16:10):
instrumental section over the chorus chords. But the bridge itself
might be ten seconds long into that instrumental and is
the instrument is the instrumentals over the chorus chords, like
he's playing piano melody over the chorus.
Speaker 3 (16:24):
Chords, but it's great and it's well employed.
Speaker 2 (16:27):
And then of course there's excellent like long bridges that
are really like like suspension bridges that are really really
strong and well executed. This is neither. It's a short bridge.
And also, by the way, I'm a big fan of
like the bridge that's not a bridge at all, the like,
here's the guitar solo played, here's the vocal line played
on guitar over That's cool with me too, if that's
(16:51):
the next right thing. This is kind of like the
worst of all worlds where it's just like he just
took and it actually in a way that's funny. I'm
like contradicting my off Momentarily. I do these songwriting workshops,
and there is one thing when you're trying to like
people who are just kind of figuring out how to
approach structure. Sometimes I am like, well, yo, if your
song is in the key of C, super like easy
(17:14):
cheat codes, just like write your first ten songs. Is like,
so all right, if you decide the verse is starting
on C, great, then let's make the chorus start on
F and then let's make the bridge start on a
minor you've used the same four chords, but you just
spin the cycle and now you've got three distinct parts
(17:35):
out of those four chords. That's really great and sometimes
like wonderful songs can be written that way. But even
that's not what this is. In a weird way, this
actually starts, I think, on the same chord as the chorus,
but he goes up to the minor instead of to
the major, and he does that maybe like two or
(17:56):
three times and just goes like like you said, like yea,
by then we're back.
Speaker 3 (18:00):
To the course and there was dynamic shift. No, he's
like a nothing nothing salad like like.
Speaker 1 (18:05):
I like, I wouldn't even mind if like things more
things cut out or built up, But it's just the arrangement.
Speaker 2 (18:12):
Bring away the yeah, actually like bring away the drums
there and that part becomes fifty percent more interesting. Yeah, like,
oh that's cool. They like dropped and now we like
build back into the course. Anyway, I agree with you
structurally about that, And yes, this is what I think
of when I think of which now maybe like dated
antiquated stuff, but like sort of Starbucks core is like
(18:34):
and I think what's interesting is you sort of.
Speaker 1 (18:36):
Said they're just to real quick to unpack that go
because I think a lot of people know, but like
some people don't. There was a time where like Starbucks
was a taste maker and was putting records at the
front when you check out, you would see artists. A
friend of ours, Ingrid Michaelson, is that kind of artist.
Speaker 2 (18:54):
I bought her record in a Starbucks and listened to
it for a twenty hour drive. Yeah, happily, by the way,
but she was her and Me without You and the
only two CDs I had. But I brought hers in
a Starbucks in like New Mexico.
Speaker 3 (19:06):
Or and she it was like that.
Speaker 1 (19:09):
It was like Gray's Anatomy, Like she had a song
on the scrubs stuff. So it's like stuff like that
could make an artist a Starbucks, like your your CD
at Starbucks break You. And that's like there's a genre that.
Speaker 3 (19:23):
Fits into it.
Speaker 1 (19:24):
That's like, that's why it's like outside of a singer songwriter,
another genre that like fits that as like coffee shop
you know, listening or whatever, you know, which.
Speaker 2 (19:32):
They have a station on on serious XM radio. That's like,
and I say all this, by the way, because I
am a songwriter who uses the acoustic guitar a lot
so write songs and features it as an instrument. A
lot of his recordings, some of my recording skew louder,
some of them don't. When I put out Put Your
(19:53):
Ghost to Wrists, we absolutely pitched songs from that to
Coffeehouse on serious. We had I think a few places
copies of that record in Starbucks. That's the thing too,
Like you could go in and sometimes you'd find like
a rylo Kylie record or Shin's records. They're like I'm
wide awake, It's morning by Bride, Like there was like
indie rock stuff that touched up against singer song and.
Speaker 1 (20:15):
A could a modest mouse record there, Like I could
definitely see some some stuff that like went pop. That's yes,
kind of started from a I'm pretty sure you could
buy Basement on the Hill in there when that record
came out posthumously, which is funny because that's like a
very weird, sort of schizophrenic record, But that's that one.
The timing was right that it was like, let's have
an Elliott Smith record in Starbucks, but it's typically a
(20:38):
Nora Jones, yes, and those artists, by the way, ingrid
Nora Jones they're like superior. But what I kind of
mean is like, and you nailed it in the initial thing.
It's almost like a flavor more than it is like
something concrete. There's something about this is what I so
the reason why on fucking Friends the joke about Phoebe
(20:58):
in the coffee shop playing her songs or whatever, this
is like it's like a particular kind of like.
Speaker 2 (21:05):
Milk toast inane. Yeah, like there's there's what I was
thinking about the lyrics too. It's like, to me, you're right,
there's nothing here. Why this song's huge is because there
was he The chorus is undeniable. It's simplicity works in
its favor, and who doesn't. It's a it's a slam dunk,
like you're beautiful, You're beautiful? Like who doesn't want to
(21:29):
hear that as an object of desire or affection? Who
doesn't want to hear that as a person pining after
someone in an unrequited way? But what I was thinking
was interesting as I read through the lyrics again, and
this might veer into chancy. I wonder if this is
like a grossly misunderstood song from a lyrical perspective, on
(21:52):
the order of like every breath you take or something
like that. So in the video, our protagonist removes the
contents of his pockets, takes off as half his clothing,
which is also like eye candy for whatever you know.
People are like, oh, cool guy with blue eyes and
no shirt on. But like, he then jumps off the
(22:12):
side of a boat, which made me laugh because it
reminded me of If you don't know this, please look up.
The video is stranged by guns n' Roses, where Axel Rose.
They spent like seven million dollars on this video in
nineteen ninety one, and Axel like jumps off a fucking
boat and swims with dolphins and shit, it's really worth
your time. But oh, I hadn't seen it. I hadn't
thought of it in a minute. It's the last video
from the two user Illusion records. It might have even
(22:34):
been like ninety three because those records had a long life.
But anyway, reading through this again, I'm like, is this
I don't end trigger warning? Is this a song about suicide?
Is what I'm thinking as I'm reading this, And I'll
tell you listeners why he sees this person and he's like,
she's beautiful, she's an angel. She smiled at me, but
(22:56):
she was with another man. But I won't lose sleep
on that, because I've got a plan.
Speaker 3 (23:01):
Ooh. And then the song. You think the plan.
Speaker 2 (23:04):
Might be about how he's going to win her away
from the other but throughout the song he's saying things
like I don't think I'll ever see her again. We
shared a moment that will last till the end. I
laughed at that because I was like, till the end
of what she's not gonna remember dog? And then I'm
like to the end of the song. But then I'm like, yo,
he's got a plan. He's emptied the contents of his
(23:24):
pockets out onto this boat where we see no other people,
and he jumps off the side of it's like an
ocean liner. It's like a giant thing into the middle
of the ocean. Half Naked's gotta be cold. Unless he's
an Olympic swimmer, James is going to be in trouble.
And then the very end of the song, by the way,
the lyrics on the streaming platform of my choice for
(23:44):
the bridge say ba la la na ba la la
na ba la la na nah.
Speaker 3 (23:50):
Oh, that actually makes it a lot better. That's makes
a lot of sense, and then he says at the
very end, there must be an angel with a smile
on her face when she thought up that I should
be with you. But it's time to face the truth.
I will never be with you. Now.
Speaker 2 (24:07):
Maybe I'm stretching here, but something about the video, the
choice of the visual in the video. I'm gonna anti
chance zag on myself for a moment about the video
and just say it's effectively a remake of Yellow by
cold Play, which came out fucking two years before this
or whatever.
Speaker 3 (24:25):
But I do.
Speaker 2 (24:26):
Wonder as I read through it, and again I'm all
over the place because I really don't like the song,
but there's an anti chance moment in there too. I
kind of hate the fucking swear, not because I don't
swearing's fine, but this is such a milk toast song.
And I've been accused of this actually too. I remember,
like you remember the critical things that are said about you.
I feel like the Village Voice once said about like
(24:47):
songs of mine that were a bit more in a
folk rock vein, like the swearing is meant to like
almost like I was trying to like rough something up
that wasn't rough and maybe that's true. Maybe I'm deserving
of that criticism. I've always felt like it was an
Maybe he feels the same. It was like an aspect
of what's the word, like ernest expression? To me, this
(25:07):
one feels so incongruous and unearned.
Speaker 3 (25:10):
Yeah, he does it.
Speaker 1 (25:11):
I like a well placed curse in a song that
it's a typical. We mentioned them before, like Rylo Kylie,
like a Jenny Lewis drops a great f bomb here
and there. Yeah, it's always kind of it's kind of fun.
It does rough it up in a way.
Speaker 2 (25:24):
But Isaac Brock does that in some way. Connor and
Elliott do that in some ways that I think are effective.
Speaker 1 (25:30):
But yeah, yeah, but this doesn't this also, Yeah, it
doesn't seem earned. But can I respond to the to
the possible all of it and themselves?
Speaker 3 (25:43):
Yeah, my stiff. I wasn't supposed to say the S
word trigger warning S word, but.
Speaker 1 (25:48):
I think the uh, the angel thing remind me of
that too. You keep talking about I see an angel,
but then I'm like, oh, wait, because is he already dead?
Speaker 2 (25:58):
I don't know, so maybe anti chancing because we're also
like whatever you were going for here, it wasn't clear.
Speaker 1 (26:04):
We're searching, we're really searching for chances. So I found
it at the bottom of this. I think you're on
the same thing for for lyrics, the genius thing at
(26:25):
the bottom it's he was on Oprah and Blunt told
Oprah it's about seeing my ex girlfriend on the subway
in London with her new man who I didn't know existed.
She and I caught eyes and lived a lifetime in
that moment. Oh my God, do anything about it?
Speaker 2 (26:41):
Oh well, listen, God bless James. You know that to
me also indicates like when we were talking before about
like the difference between you know, like Beck and James Blunt.
I don't remember. We got to look this up. I'd
love to see it. If they did Loser on Oprah,
that would be awesome.
Speaker 1 (27:01):
But yeah, I mean, well, another parallel, like I was thinking,
is like John Mayer, and I think John Mayer can
write circles around this and it gives and like when
you compare this to like like I was mentioning train
before when you or even actually like with Phoebe from Friends,
(27:21):
like you mentioned she's so much more quirky like her.
I would take her songs. There's an artist from Staten
Island that's like a coffee shop sort of artists who are.
Speaker 3 (27:31):
Named Phoebe Blue.
Speaker 1 (27:32):
I don't know if you ever, but no, no, she
has this mix of things right, like there's a lot
of good that comes out of of coffee shops. Yeah,
you'll get you'll get artists that are just so uniquely
themselves that it's not mainstream.
Speaker 3 (27:49):
It's you know, and it's.
Speaker 1 (27:51):
But it's like, I'm so excited to hear what songs
she's going to sing next, because first of all, she's
got the like this this like thick New York accent,
like in the almost like like a lou read way.
She approaches songs in such a unique place. She she's
always like the lyricism is always really cool in avant
guard and and so like it's it's I would say
(28:13):
that like the the Phoebe, it's funny, it's two Phoebees.
The Phoebe from Friends is like it's sort of a
parody of that of the quirky New York, New York
singer songwriter that's like at coffee shops. But what and
whereas like that impression I used to do, like Matthew
Davids is more like what we're talking about, which is like, yes,
kind of like every song feels like it's the first
(28:36):
song they ever wrote and there was like no, you know,
and that's what that's what this song feels like. It's
like it's like his first song. He took no notes
and he like released it and it blew up, and
then like he didn't learn a lesson and he's like
always going to write that. I mean, I haven't listened
to his other material. He may have like.
Speaker 3 (28:51):
Evolved and maybe like maybe this was a keep it
simple stupid kind of thing, right, which, yeah, that's a
chance I'll give it. Is it worked and you kept
it so simple. Yeah, But I think there's a way
to keep.
Speaker 1 (29:04):
It simple but also keeping of course, there is some
kind of fingerprint. There's no course there is.
Speaker 2 (29:10):
It's it's fucking I mean, there's a million examples of that.
I the ones I'm off the top of my head
are going to be ones that like it's calling on
the same references I always call on. But there is
definitely a way to keep it simple and not have
it be this, you know, whether that's whether that smells
like teen Spirit, which is four chords over and over again,
(29:32):
whether that's like I think of I don't know, like
most actually super successful pop songs.
Speaker 1 (29:39):
Green Day stuff, I mean, but Green Yeah, like they'll
do so much within the they're like what's simple sounding.
Speaker 2 (29:45):
I would also argue with Green Day there for me,
their charm has had an inverse arc to their expansion
and and uh and their expansion and and and like
embrace of like more complexity.
Speaker 3 (30:02):
Like to me, I was thinking of Green Day a
song like she or a song like Yeah.
Speaker 2 (30:06):
Like those songs to me, that's and like think of
I'm thinking of these are all rock songs, and I
would like for our chance just like it, like think
about I do think with like a folk rock punk
simple like the Ramones. I don't know, there's what twenty
classic Ramone songs that are effectively the same thing over
(30:28):
and over again, and I kind of could hear them
at any time and be like, that's awesome.
Speaker 3 (30:33):
You're so right.
Speaker 1 (30:34):
Ramones' is a great parallel because it's it is that is,
keep it simple, but it's fast and it's provocative. The
lyricism is it's much cooler, you know.
Speaker 2 (30:43):
Yeah, but in this arena what I'm thinking about too,
And it's funny you mentioned. Yeah, Like that's the thing too.
Everything is like you're trying to guard against the bastardization
of something that is actually cool. And when you're what
you're talking about, I'm thinking of like this sidewalk Cafe,
which I don't even know if it's still there in
the Lower East Side. I'm thinking about like that anti
(31:05):
folk scene that like eventually spat out the Moldy Peaches,
which that becomes huge through that Juno movie. But like
that stuff, and like Jme Jamie Searman, the songwriter I've
played with a ton over the years, who who I
think these are? Those were like people who came up
in that world, the humans from Staten Island. They were
the first people I ever saw play at the sidewalk,
(31:28):
Like I went to the Sidewalk Cafe when I was
like seventeen to see them play. They did that anti
fi there was a name of the open mic that
I'll remember after we're done recording, but it was this
anti folks scene that they did there. That stuff was
all super quirky's a word, but also I would say
like idiosyncratic, like it had some it was funny and
(31:49):
it was chwee, but it also had some like heft
to it.
Speaker 3 (31:51):
It was it was art.
Speaker 2 (31:53):
They were artists, and I think and some of them
became like more successful and like in an entertainment arena.
But that kind of coffee house thing which is almost
connected to like I don't know, like the folkies and
the sixties in the lower in the West Village or
like you know, beat Nicks reading these kind of out
like that's one thing. Then there's this other thing. And
(32:16):
the thing that we haven't said explicitly that is to
me what Matthew David's was, the like the what you
got exactly about that that made it so fucking funny
to me? And what this is to a te This
music suffers maybe above all l all its other sins
(32:41):
and in comparison with all other genres, it's faux depth.
It sounds like it's meaningful, emotionally resonant, deep because it's slow,
because it's it's gentle, because it goes from maje to minor,
and because it's and that's why I want to look
(33:07):
for this potential other meaning in the lyrics, because the
truth is, if it's not there, it's such a banal expression.
Even the fucking story he told on Oprah Winfrey is
more interesting than the song. He wrote about the story,
and I think it's so funny, Like I'm thinking about,
what's another thing that these people have covered to death
(33:27):
that's become like the most it's become like a global
standard is Hallelujah. And in Hallelujah, he's kind of actually
at times making fun of that in a way in
that it goes like this, the fourth, the fifth, the
minor fall, the major lift, like he's actually he's and
he's And of course what's brilliant about that is it's
(33:50):
what he's doing literally as he's singing that song that
has been beaten to death, and yet when I contemplated,
I'm still like, well that's it's a fucking major accomplishment.
Speaker 3 (34:02):
Every part of that song is Michael Jordan. It's it's impeccable.
It's also amazing.
Speaker 2 (34:07):
That's that story where him and maybe this is already
even told in the podcast, the story where Dylan's like,
I really like that hell you song? How long did
take you to write that fucking dick? How long did
it take you to write that? And letters like well, Bob,
it took me the better part of seven years to
write that on and off ollow seven years Wow. And
(34:27):
then like Letter Cohn's like, well, how long did it
take you to write Knocking on Heaven's Door? It's so profound?
And Bob's like how long is that song? And Leonard
co was like, it's like three and a half minutes.
He's it took me like seven minutes.
Speaker 3 (34:39):
That's so funny.
Speaker 1 (34:40):
I want you to do a side podcast that is
just Elliett. Sorry Leonard and Bob Dylan, you do both parts.
Speaker 3 (34:49):
You just go back and forth.
Speaker 2 (34:50):
It's like Andrew Scott's One Man Von Yet pay off Broadway.
They're also a sponsor on this as well. I want
to give a shout out to Uncle Vanya Andrew Scott.
Speaker 3 (35:01):
So I want to start landing the plane because it's.
Speaker 2 (35:04):
There's a plane that there's a plane that's fixing the
land on my apartment right now.
Speaker 3 (35:08):
Case you hear that could be the end for old
k Z I G. Will you have this moment that
will last till the end with me? Yes? But you're
fucking high.
Speaker 1 (35:24):
So he didn't talk about it singing because I think
it's I think vocally like you know, it's my life?
Is He like, it's that's that doesn't What does.
Speaker 3 (35:34):
That make you think of? What is the first thing
clear your brain? Do what you just did again and
tell me what it makes you think. Hey, uh, gollum gollum.
Speaker 2 (35:43):
Is I was gonna say that justin Timberlake, Jimmy Fallon, Oh,
Gibbs Brothers bit from l Oh Yes.
Speaker 3 (35:52):
Once Australian, it's an Australian thing. Oh, I know Australian people,
they don't sing like that.
Speaker 1 (36:00):
I like how much Coffee Shop era we talked about
because it sounds like this do make me appreciate more
of that of that stuff. Yeah, there is a lot
of craftsmanship around that and this is like kind of
lacking a lot of it.
Speaker 3 (36:14):
One hundred percent.
Speaker 2 (36:16):
And I'm maybe this is just going to sound judgmental
in our as we in our last thirty seconds, but
to me, it's like, it's interesting that with the capitol
built by working with a generational artist like Elliott Smith,
one guy goes on to make music by more radiosyncratic
people that were interested in that side of that coin,
and one guy made this.
Speaker 3 (36:36):
Is he out of your blunt rotation? Tom Rothrock?
Speaker 2 (36:39):
I don't want to put him on blast, but honestly,
in the last twelve I'll say he's ows James Now
James is in Rothney, He's still in and rap rock,
Woke Up rock, rock, rock, rock, rap rock and BLOWSTI
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