November 20, 2024 • 42 mins
Before Heracles, there was Alcmene, and there's so much more to her than just "mother of a hero". Help keep LTAMB going by subscribing to Liv's Patreon for bonus content!
CW/TW: far too many Greek myths involve assault. Given it's fiction, and typically involves gods and/or monsters, I'm not as deferential as I would be were I referencing the real thing.
Sources: Theoi.com entries on Hesiod's Shield of Heracles; Pseudo-Apollodorus' Library of Greek Mythology; Early Greek Myths by Timothy Gantz; The Oxford Handbook of Heracles, edited by Daniel Ogden, chapter by Corinne Pache.
Attributions and licensing information for music used in the podcast can be found here: mythsbaby.com/sources-attributions.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
Hello there, This is let's talk about myths, baby, and
I am live the one who brings you all the
mythology all the time, and I mean literally all of
the time, like over five thousand words of mythology every
week just in these Tuesday episodes.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
Sometimes I just think about that, you know, like the
actual volume of words that I get to write about
Greek mythology, just even during a single month. It is bananas, uh,
but it's seriously fucking fun and you all, you know,
want it and you help me turn it into a career,
so I am not complaining, but it is an interesting
thing to look at the volume of words sometimes though,
(01:15):
amidst all the deep, you know, nerd level wanderings that
I do these days, you know, digging and diving into
the depths of obscure sources and unheard of stories or characters.
Like sometimes I just love to return to the roots,
like the pure, straight like famous myths, but with a twist.
(01:37):
Except well, I've been doing this for six years, so
you just know that now, even when I want to
return to a simpler, famous myth, I'm still gonna tell
you every goddamn detail imaginable, Like today, where I thought
you know who I mentioned peripherally, like you know all
the time, but I rarely really get to dive deep
into like fucking Heracles. That guy he had his hand
(01:59):
in every pot, but or rather he scared his opponents
so badly that they hid in the same pots. But today,
you know, I thought, I want to talk about Heracles.
I want to dive deeper into his origin story, maybe
the labors he's so famous for. You know, it's been
like five years since I talked about those, and I
want to dive. I want to dive so much deeper. Plus,
(02:21):
if I'm being totally honest with you all, last year
I spent like over one hundred and fifty dollars on
a fucking Heracles book that I have yet to use.
But I thought was going to be so helpful. So
this is me, This is me forcing myself to get
my money's worth. But then when I, you know, when
I decided to look at Heracles a little closer, I realized, actually, no,
(02:43):
you know who deserves better his fucking mother, al Cameni.
She is the mother of the biggest, baddest, best hero
of Greek myth and yet how little everyone talks about
her as a real person outside of that motherhood. Gods. No,
(03:05):
I prefer talking about women outside of motherhood. So today
we're maybe weren't you reintroducing Heracles, but we're doing it
by devoting an episode to the stories of his mother, Alcmeni.
(03:32):
This is episode two twenty eight. Before Heracles, there was Alcmeni,
the woman behind the greatest hero or like her, who
(03:58):
left home and country and care to thebes following warlike Amphytrion,
even Alcmene, the daughter of Electrion, gatherer of the people.
She surpassed the tribe of womankind in beauty, and in height,
and in wisdom. None vied with her of those who
(04:20):
mortal women bear of union with mortal men. Her face
and her dark eyes wafted such charm as comes from
golden Aphrodite, and she so honored her husband in her
heart as none of womankind did before her. Alcmenie was
(04:41):
born to a very very illustrious family in Argaullis. Her
father was Electrion, the son of none other than Perseus
and Andromeda, the founding heroes of that region of the Peloponnese.
Her mother, you know, we know less about, or rather
there's just like a debate as to who exactly Alcmene's
(05:01):
mother was, and in all cases she's just kind of
a possible name. The point, though, is that Alchimeni was
the granddaughter of Perseus and thus great granddaughter of Zeus.
Alcameni was the only daughter of Electrion, king of Myceni,
who had a whole collection of sons. It was Alcimeni
(05:25):
and her nine brothers, whose names I won't trouble you with,
because well, they don't live long. Alchemeni was an impressive
woman in many ways, even aside from her heroic heritage
and status as princess of Myceni. Even Hesiod and the
quote that I read up at the top there from
(05:47):
this shield of Heracles, concedes that she was not only
the most beautiful woman around, but she was also the
wisest and well the tallest. Good for her. Still, this
is Hesiod after all, So the most impressive part of
Elchemeni to him is how much she honored her husband.
(06:11):
But we will get to that husband. I, unlike Hesiod,
am far more interested in Alcmeni. When Alcmeni was young,
just nearing that age old enough to be married, the
king of Megara, peterre Laus tried to come and lay
claim to the throne of Myceni. He brought a whole
(06:34):
group of men with him, called the Taffians, and they
attempted to take control of the kingdom. Electrion's sons defended
their city. They fought the Taffians, and only one of
the nine sons of Electrion survived the battle, Lecymnius, who
was simply too young to have fought at all. So
(06:57):
el Cameni was left with only one sibling when she
used to have nine, and this stuck with her. Most
of Peterrelaus's sons were killed two but many of the
rest of his men, those who had been part of
the attack on Myceni and of the killing of electrion sons,
(07:18):
survived and fled. But they didn't just flee after their
attack on the city, they also stole a bunch of
cattle and eventually sold them off to the king of
nearby Ellis Polyxenus. Faced with a kingdom that has now
been absolutely torn to shreds. Almost all of his sons
(07:39):
and heirs have been killed, Electrion decides to sort out
a new successor. A man named Amphytrion made a name
for himself when he traveled to Ellis and he retrieved
Electrion's stolen cattle, returning them to myceni. I want to
make this a joke, you know, like so much drama
(08:00):
and bloodshed relating to stolen cattle. But obviously this would
have been like an enormous issue in the ancient world.
Cattle are important. They are pricey as hell, and they're
a major time investment. If the cattle that you've been
raising for however many years, are suddenly stolen, like, you're
kind of fucked. So, with his sons dead and his
kingdom in major need of sorting out, Electron decides to
(08:23):
give his kingdom and his daughter in marriage to the
man who retrieved the cattle. And it really makes a
lot of sense, And that's what Electron decides. And Fitrion
has proven himself to be a good man and thus
a good husband for his only daughter, Alcmenie, and a
good man to take over the ruling of Mycenie. This
(08:48):
is it's decided, and it seems that it's all sorted
quite quickly, because the next dramatic plot point comes upon
the official return of the cattle. I don't know. Maybe
it took a while for them to be brought back
to Myceni, because in the meantime, Mfittrion has returned with
the news that he is bringing back the cattle, and
(09:08):
thus has been granted both the kingdom of Myceni and
this marriage to Alcmeni. Everything rhymes. I wish I could
avoid it. It sounds like a poem anyway, Electrion, he
is one requirement of Mfittrion upon his marriage to Alcmeni.
(09:29):
Electriancy is bent on avenging his son's deaths. That's why
he's so happy to give up his kingdom to m Vitrion,
like it doesn't matter to him any longer. What matters
is avenging his sons, the sons who would never be
able to take over the kingdom that he had been
so prepared to give them. So he told m Vitrion
(09:50):
that he could marry Alchemeni, but that they were forbidden
from consummating the marriage until Electrion has written turned from
his avenging journey. He's gonna go out, He's gonna kill
the men who killed his sons, and when he comes back,
(10:11):
then his daughter can have sex with her new husband.
Until then, Alcmene needed to remain a virgin. This, I
promise is important and not just weird and gross, because
while Electrion he never has the chance to go off
and avenge his sons, he only had the chance to
(10:33):
have m Fittrion swear this oath before. Shortly after, as
as Mfitrion is dealing with the returned cattle, one of
them charges at him. Electrion seems to be nearby. Maybe he's,
you know, also dealing with the cattle, or he's preparing
to head off to avenge these sons. But Mfittrion, without thinking,
(10:55):
he throws a club at one of the charging cows,
just hoping to it from attacking him. But the club
rebounded off the cow's horns, and well, it hit Electreon
in the head and killed him. This is one of
(11:31):
those stories where it's just it's kind of difficult not
to make that sound silly, like I get it. This
is a tragedy. The poor man was mourning eight dead sons.
He had to marry off his daughter so that his
kingdom wouldn't be left with nothing, you know, so that
she wouldn't be left with nothing, and then he's killed
in such a random and well like, not particularly heroic way.
(11:54):
Greek myths do love an unexpected death story, and the
other Greek myths love an accidental murder that then requires
travel and resulting purification. It's a long standing trope in
Greek myth. Man accidentally kills another man. He is very
sad and sorry. It definitely wasn't his intention, and thus
(12:17):
we don't have to think badly of him. But he's
then required to travel to another kingdom and seek purification
from that king, and then he's okay. Mfitrion's story is
no different, but because of the horrible timing the entrusting
of Myceni to Mfitrion just before the murder, the kingdom
(12:37):
itself is at the mercy of this accidental murder. Senialus,
Electrion's brother, took this opportunity. He used Electrion's accidental death
as a pretext to banish Emfittrion and Alchemeni and the
surviving son her brother Kim. They're banished from Myceni and
(13:02):
from the whole of our Golis. The very moment Mfittrion
is gone, Sthenalus seized the kingdom of Myceni and nearby
Tyrans too, for himself and for his sons, and according
to at least later versions, you know, trying to tie
all of the mythological stories together, he entrusted the city
(13:23):
of Medea, not Medea. It's difficult. It's an i to
none other than the sons of Pelops, Atreus and Thiastes.
But we're not concerned with them now, at least not
until next month, when we dive straight into the murderous
and cannibalistic play about the very same characters. Today, though,
(13:45):
we're concerned with Alcameni because she's been married to m Fittrion.
She was banished along with him. It didn't matter whether
or not she wanted to join him, even after he'd
accidentally killed her father. Sthenelus was quick to action. As
soon as he had the opportunity to rid my scene
of his competition, he did it. He banished Mfittrion, and
(14:06):
because of that he could banish Alchemeni and even her
surviving brother Lachymnius. He knew exactly which threats to get
rid of, basically anyone with a rightful claim to the throne.
That he has just seized for himself. So Alcameni goes
off with Mfittrion and her brother and she makes the
(14:28):
best out of her situation. She's a strong woman. She's
just dealt with the deaths of eight of her brothers
and then her father, like she has been through it all,
and she comes out stronger and not willing to let
anyone dictate her life. They land in Thebes, and frankly,
I wish there was some kind of like backstory for
why they would travel so far. I imagine it would be.
(14:50):
You know that the most of the Peloponnese and certainly
all of the Argolid would have fallen to Stenalus's stolen throne,
but it's notable how far they traveled. It also becomes
a vitally important to later mythos surrounding Heracles, including what
I spoke about during my series on Sparta earlier this year.
Like this, this banishment, this forced migration of Alchemeni and
(15:11):
Emfitrion is then Heracles's later tie to the Peloponnese and
the reason why the Heracleida have claim to it when
they wage the War of the mythological Dorian Invasion. The
whole spartan origin story. But I'm getting ahead of myself
because Heracles mythology is just it's so fascinating and so
(15:31):
deeply tied to historical beliefs at the time too. The point, though,
is Alchmeni and Mfittrion reached Thebes where they're purified by
the king Creon. Yes, I think that Creon of Oedipus
fame there. Alchemenie's brother Lacymnius marries Creon's sister Paramede, and
(15:51):
after Imfittrion agrees to handle I mean a lady fox,
a vixen who's been causing trouble in the region. After that,
Creon agrees to help him do the one thing Alcmeni
has asked of him, avenge the deaths of her brothers.
Alchemenie is the one in control of things here, in
control of her own marriage. She knows that she holds
(16:14):
the cards. Like her new husband accidentally killed her father
and he got them banished, and he had her family's
kingdom stolen out from under them. So if Mfittrion wants
to have an even remotely happy marriage, he has got
some groveling to do. But Alchimenie doesn't want his apologies,
she wants bloodshed, and Fittrion does everything his wife asks
(16:39):
of him. But frankly, I have told this story before
and I went into details of what he did then.
So if you're curious about that deadly vixen the Lady Fox,
have a listen to past Heracles episodes, because again, today
is about Alchemeni and Alcmenie. She had another requirement of
her husband. She was not to sleep with him until
(17:02):
he avenged her brothers. Basically, it was just a continuation
of what he had already agreed to Electrion. It's a
necessary plot point, but it's also just like so real,
you know, like this woman has been through it. Her
life has been destroyed completely, and she's doing all that
she can to keep herself together. She doesn't want to
fuck a man that she's known for like a hot minute,
(17:22):
let alone the one who was the cause of her
father's death and her exile. Like nah, he is going
to have to earn access to her. So that's the deal.
You want a happy wife, you want to have sex.
Wage war on the people who killed Alchimeni's brothers, take
them all out, make them pay then return to Thebes,
(17:44):
and Alcmeni will consider making their marriage official, and Fittrion
again does everything that's asked of him. I gather that
it wasn't so much you know about the sex either,
but like an actual human desire to atone for what
he's done for all we know. But I'm Vitrion and
his marriage to Alchemeni for that matter. He seems to
actually have been, like maybe maybe a good guy. His
(18:08):
crimes were accidental and he's doing everything he can to
make up for them. The bar is low. It's just
that also, well, you know, things have been happening behind
the scenes. You see, Zeus has taken an interest and
the woman that was so famously beautiful, famously loyal, famously tall.
(18:30):
Zeus has been watching Alcmeni, and he has decided to
be very zeus about how he feels. He's also pretty
excited to take advantage of the rules that Alcmeni has
set for her husband and the benefit of it all.
(18:51):
Zeus really does prefer his women untouched, like how does
one properly convey again sound gross? The most dangerous existence
(19:33):
for a woman in Greek mythology is to be not
only unfathomably beautiful but also pure. Add to that a
woman known for honoring her husband and being hot and tall,
and you've got a recipe fit only for Zeus. This
is from Hesiod's Shield of Heracles, telling the story of
(19:55):
exactly how Zeus came to be the father of gree
most illustrious and enviable hero. Quote. But the father of
men and gods was forming another scheme in his heart
to beget one to defend against destruction gods and men
(20:17):
who eat bread. So he arose from Olympus by night,
pondering guile in the deep of his heart, and yearned
for the love of the well girded woman. Quickly he
came to the Typheonium, and from there again wise Zeus
went on and trod the highest peak of Phyicium. There
he sat and planned marvelous things in his heart. So
(20:42):
in one night Zeus shared the bed and love of
the neat ankled daughter of Electrion, and fulfilled his desire.
And in the same night Amphytrion, gatherer of the people,
the glorious hero, came to his house. When he had
did his great task, he hastened not to go to
(21:03):
his bondsmen and shepherds afield, but first went unto his wife.
Such desire took hold on the shepherd of the people,
and as a man who had escaped joyfully from misery,
whether of sore disease or cruel bondage, So then did Mfittrion,
when he had wound up all his heavy task, come
glad and welcome to his home. And all night long
(21:26):
he lay with his modest wife, delighting in the gifts
of golden Aphrodite. What Zeus wants, Zeus gets, or rather takes.
While Inmfittrion is on his way home to Alcmeni, having
done everything she asked of him, having avenged the tragic
(21:46):
deaths of her brothers. That is when Zeus strikes against Alcmeni.
Some versions of the story say that Zeus came to
Alcmeni disguised as Mfittrion, leading her to believe that she
was having sex with her husband for the very first time.
After you know, he's returned to her a hero in
her eyes. Other versions of the story just say that
(22:09):
Zeus like schemed, that he misled her in some way,
that he deceived her. However, he did it though it
was nefarious, and Alchemeni did not know who it was
that she was sleeping with or what it might mean.
And then Mfititrion returned and the couple had sex on
the very same night. And that part is key because
(22:32):
after spending the night with Zeus and Infittrion, however it
might have happened, Helchameni becomes pregnant with twins. Greek myth
does love a twin story where only one of them
is the child of gods. It certainly adds drama. Most
accounts of the story suggest that it isn't until the
(22:54):
babies are born that Alchemenian Mfittrion learn that she's pregnant
by Zeus, but the late of Pseudopolodorus adds another level
of intrigue. According to that version, quote, when Mfittrion arrived
and saw that he was not welcomed by his wife,
he inquired the cause, and when she told him that
he had come the night before and slept with her,
(23:16):
he learned from Tyresius how Zeus had enjoyed her. That
version is explicit too. You know that when Zeus had
sex with Alchmeni, he did so like while deceiving her
into thinking that he was her husband. It's it's clear,
and it's and it's just gross. Quote Zeus came by
(23:39):
night and prolonging the night threefold, he assumed the likeness
of Emfititrion and bedded with Alchemeni. He even adds that
Zeus made his false Mfittrion even more convincing by telling
Alcmeni like all about how he defeated the men and
killed her brothers. So this take where everyone finds out
(24:00):
Zeus's lie and where his deception is like so explicit.
It isn't just fun because it's like a ninety soap
opera level drama, but also because despite the fact that
Infittrion is told explicitly that his wife had sex with
Zeus and that like one of the children she's gonna
bear is Zeus's child, their marriage seems unaffected. In fact, Alcmeni,
(24:20):
aside from the obviously disturbing idea that Zeus coerced her
into having sex with him, she remains pretty untouched by
the usual divine retribution that comes with things like this. Instead,
it's her son who faces Harah's wrath and isn't that
like a little like, if disturbingly refreshing. Also, yeah, you
(24:44):
heard that right. According to a few different versions, Zeus
was so like taken with Elkmeni that he couldn't stand
to have her for just one night, so instead he
convinced Helios the literal son not to rise for three days,
so that he could basically have three days worth of
sex with Alcmeni in one night. No one could say
(25:09):
Zeus isn't inventive in his fuckery. So Alcmeni is pregnant
with these twins, and about two months into her pregnancy
give or take, another woman becomes pregnant. Her name is Nickippi,
but of course she's better known as Sthenalus's wife. And
another five months after that, Zeus makes a little announcement
(25:32):
to the rest of the gods. He sits everyone down
on Mount Olympus and he tells them that, in what
can only be assumed to be pointless bragging, that a
child is about to be born who is not only
a descendant of the famed Perseus, but who will reign
over the kingdom of Mycenee. And what do you know?
(25:53):
Harah takes note of this news, careful, careful, note. Once
Zeus has given up the game to his wife, who
is always looking for a reason and a way to
punish him via punishing others, you know, he presumably flits
off to fuck around with another mortal or nymph, leaving
(26:13):
Harah to her planning. Or alternatively, Harah's scheming begins before
Zeus even has the chance to boast about his soon
to be child. Instead, in the Iliad, Egamemnon tells the
story of Heracles' birth, and in his version, Harah immediately
knows what Zeus has done, and it's actually she who
(26:37):
tricks Zeus into swearing that the next child born in
the Persian line will rule over the region. However it happens,
though it is officially determined that the next baby born
who is also a descendant of Perseus, will reign in
some important way. And with this decided one way or
(27:00):
the other, Haarah jumps right into the action, moving her
plan along to its next steps. This isn't her first
husband fucking around, rodeo, and she calls for her daughter
Ayi Lithia, the goddess of childbirth. Yes, I know you're
probably thinking of another goddess of childbirth, like Leda or
(27:22):
Artemis and you know, questioning me and you're not wrong.
Speaker 1 (27:25):
Ei.
Speaker 2 (27:25):
Lithia, though, is the like official goddess of childbirth, as in,
she doesn't just help out, you know, like the other
two do, but she quite literally controls labor. Without her,
nothing happens. Haarah calls upon Eilythia, and she orders her
(27:45):
daughter to do her a favor, though is it a
favor if it's also an order? Haah tells Ailethia to
lengthen Alcmene's pregnancy or to keep her in labor forever, whatever,
It takes, anything to ensure that the next child born,
who is a descendant of Perseus is not also the
(28:08):
child that her naughty husband has fathered behind her back.
And so, alongside this delay of Alcamene's giving birth, Ailethia
also grants Sthenalus's wife, Nickippi, a shortened pregnancy. Hers only
needs to last seven months, which mathematically would put us
(28:31):
pretty even between the two. Harah wins this one with
the help by the Lithia. Harah has Alcmene's labor withheld
long enough to ensure that it is Sthenalus's wife who
gives birth first. He and his wife named their son Eurystheus.
If that isn't already a familiar name, it's going to
(28:53):
become pretty important. Eurystheus goes on to become the King
of Myceni, or better known as the King of Tyrans.
He's just as much a descendant of Perseus as the
children that Alchimene is about to give birth to, but
he isn't also the son of Zeus. And yet it's
best not to think about what it means to be
(29:14):
a descendant of Perseus, you know, given Perseus is also
the son of Zeus. Shortly after Eurystheus is born, Alchemeni
is finally visited by the goddess Ailethia and allowed to
give birth to her two children. These twins, though only
one of them gets to be the child of a god.
(29:55):
Alchemede's twins are born, and importantly, both are seen legitimate
sons of Mfittrion. It isn't clear, you know, in all
the varied versions of conception, but this legitimacy is tied
to the idea that Zeus deceived Alchemeni, like that he
presented himself as being her husband, and that for all
(30:16):
she knew, she was only having sex with her husband
like it's gross over everything else. But it also means
that while one of the two children born to Alchemeni,
if it Cles, is entirely mortal and the biological child
of Mfittrion, the other, Heracles, is both the biological son
of Zeus and explicitly the son of m Fittrion in
(30:38):
all the ways that it matters. Like I said earlier, though,
it also just makes me kind of fond of m Fittrion.
Like in comparison to most men in these sorts of stories,
he handles the whole thing pretty well. He doesn't take
any issue with what happened when it comes to Alchemeni,
and he raises both children as if they're his own.
As far as the mortal realm is concerned, the children
(31:00):
are just that they are the children of Alcameni and Amptrion.
But as far as Harah is concerned, one of them
is a menace on whom that she is willing to
devote a lifetime's worth of fe fury. Any guess which
of the two children that would be. No, Okay, I
(31:21):
will tell you it's Heracles, and not just because the
name Heracles just means very ironically, the Glory of hara
A late source Dietor Siculus, explains Heracles's name by noting
that actually, when he was first born, his parents just
named him like Alcius or Alcides, which is connected with
(31:43):
his strength even as a baby. But that isn't actually
something found earlier. Heracles appears to just be his name,
and it's just poetic as hell that the entirety of
his life will be dedicated to defeating whatever Harah throws
at him, and you know, perpetually trying to escape per
wrath is the core of his very existence. I never
(32:06):
enjoy having to tell the stories where Haraah is a
jealous wife, like punishing everyone except Zeus for the shit
that he puts her through. But when it comes to
Heracles specifically, like she's so wildly dramatic and violent and
has such incredibly creative ideas for how she'll try to
kill him that like, I can't even be mad at
the misogyny inherent, you know, in so much of her character.
(32:28):
She gives me Medea vibes when it comes to Heracles,
the one like Jason, you know, he really didn't actually
do anything to anger Harah. Beyond just like being born.
Speaker 1 (32:39):
But she is.
Speaker 2 (32:40):
She's just so creative it is hard to be bothered.
And that creativity starts early while Heracles is still just
a baby in his crib, you know, nestled up with
his twin brother, Ificles. Even then, he gets the opportunity
to defeat the first of what will become many, many,
(33:00):
many attempts on his life by the Queen of the Gods.
While Heracles is in that crib with his brother, you know,
both full on newborns, Hara sends two monstrous snakes slithering
up and into the crib.
Speaker 1 (33:15):
Ugh.
Speaker 2 (33:16):
Baby Heracles is ready, though he's like his half brother
Hermes that way, you know, ready to rock. As a
tiny baby, he manages to pull himself up well enough
that he can grasp his two little newborn hands around
each snake and basically strangle them to death while his
mother and nurse look on. And what I can only
(33:38):
imagine is a kind of fascinating horror. One of the
sources that I'm using for this a chapter in the
Oxford Handbook to Heracles, the one I mentioned at the top,
notes that in the sources that discuss this moment, they
use the word MACKI essentially making it clear that like
this moment, while still a newborn, is heracles first taste
(34:01):
of battle. Like when it comes to that word, think
Titanomichi amazonmichee, like it's it's the same here, it's just
a battle between a newborn and snakes. There isn't much
about Heracles's childhood or much at all about the time
that he might have spent with his mother. So as
much as I want, you know, to keep talking about Alchemeni, explicitly,
(34:25):
her story kind of drops off. Like so many women
in mythology, It's tied entirely to the men around her,
and once they're no longer with her, she's no longer
a plot point. So instead of you know more about Alchemeni,
We're gonna finish the episode off with one of the
more bizarre and entirely inexplicable moments from Heracles's childhood, or rather,
(34:46):
you know, other than the whole killing snakes as a
baby in a crib moment, the only other anecdote that
we have about him while he is a baby, and
that is the time that Harah breastfed him. Why would
she do that, you might be asking, or you certainly
should be. But the answer is like, there is no answer,
(35:08):
But what I can tell you is that it is
definitely always weird. One source says that Hermes brought the
baby Heracles to Hara while she was sleeping and just
like had him latch on to her, which again weird
and like why. Another says that ALCHEMENI actually like exposed
(35:31):
Heracles out of fear of Hara, and that Athena and
Harah found him. Athena, you know, who of course is
like guardian of heroes in so many cases, then asks
Harah to nurse him, you know, to make him big
and strong. But while he like, he's already too big
and strong, and he hurts her with how hard he
tries to nurse from her. In both of these cases,
(35:54):
the moment itself results in Harah like pulling away from
the baby with such force that her milk spatters across
the sky to make the milky way. So that's a
vaguely nice result, maybe, I suppose these authors though they
also like to say that, you know, drinking Hara's milk
is what made Heracles immortal, you know, different from those
(36:15):
other heroes. Now, all the sources that explicitly relate Heracles
is nursing from Hara come from like quite late in
the mythological sources. There isn't any explicit example of this
from earlier than like say, first century BCE maybe, but
there is a moment in the Iliad which some argue
could be referencing that moment. It says that there was
(36:37):
a time that Heracles attacked Hara, and since these moments
of him nursing at her breast like violently, are you
know about the only other references we have to anything
like an attack, It's sometimes argued that maybe it's referencing
an instance of this. Regardless. Heracles, you know, grows up
with two strong women in his life, his mother Elchemenie,
(37:00):
who stood up for herself and was generally interesting, and Harah,
who hates him so much but is ridiculously creative about
it and maybe nursed him in a weird and painful
way that gave us a galaxy Nerds ares Nerds, thank
(37:33):
you for listening. I'm actually really excited that I got
to devote this whole episode to Alchemedie, you know, even
if we had to talk an awful lot about the
men around her and It's funny because like researching it,
I found like it was a really good I thought
that I found a lot basically, and then reading it
out again, I'm like, it's so piecemeal because even when
(37:53):
it revolves around a hero like Heracles, if I try
to focus not on Heracles but on a woman, you know,
it just it's not the same as much as I
wanted to be. We're gonna do it anyway, because these
ALCHEMENI deserves the best. You know. It's obviously like a
big concern of mind focusing on the stories of women,
(38:15):
but specifically, like I really trying to eventually put out
something a little more like official when it comes to
these women. And this was great inspiration, even if it
was also frustrating. But Alchimenie deserves the world Heracles. Eh.
But this will be the start of a couple of
episodes on Heracles before we shift to a new topic.
I'm gonna return to him, you know, every once in
(38:36):
a while over the next few months, while revisiting his
famous labors, because I want to, and also, you know,
it's been like six years. Those were really really poorly
researched back in the day. And instead I'm gonna make
that one hundred and fifty dollars book worth the money
I paid for it. But also, you know, when it
comes to lengthy sources that I've yet to cover in
(38:58):
excessive detail, we are really heading down to just what's
left is like mostly plays, and I fucking love covering
plays on the show, but I also don't want to
inundate you guys with only plays all the time. So
before we get to Spooky season and Seneca's tragedy about
the man who fed his son to the gods while
a fury looked on, We're gonna just go into the
nitty gritty of the absolute, hands down most impressive and
(39:20):
most famous hero of ancient Greece. Hair fucking please, but
I'm so thrilled you know that I got to start
with this episode about his mother, ALCHAMENI It just she
deserves the best treatment I could give her. And before
I leave all of you magnificent listeners with one of
your own beautiful five star reviews of my show, I
want to let you know that if you're listening on Spotify,
I'm trying out a new thing. I'm gonna be giving
(39:42):
you all questions or polls at the end of episodes
as often as I can remember to do them, or
like have a good question to ask, It'll pop up
on Spotify and I would love to hear your answers
or get your votes. Your answers, if they're appropriate and
not ask Holary will be published on Spotify under the episode.
So it's a pretty cool new function and I'm kind
of excited to see how I can use it to
(40:04):
connect with you all a bit more, but also have
your comments listed on the episodes. It's kind of fun,
so you know, interact with it please, all right? As always,
here is one of your fucking wonderful reviews, the things
that make my days so much better, particularly when I'm
feeling like an anxious mess who can't stop believing that
one day I'll be forced to stop doing this podcast
and my life will blow up in my face. And like,
(40:24):
those days happen more than I'd like, but your reviews
save me, so thank you. This lovely and so kind
review comes from a user called abbyg five in my
own Canada. Incredibly informative and comedic. This is my favorite
podcast and I recommend it so much that all my
friends are sick of hearing me talk about it. I've
been listening for three years and I love seeing how
lives narrative and research style has progressed, and how she
(40:46):
continues to incorporate present day issues into the myths. I
adore her feminist perspective and her incredible style of storytelling.
Increased my love for Greek mythology tenfold and even led
to me including it as a minor in my university studies.
Congratulations on six years Live, and I can't wait to
continue listening for many more years to come. Thank you
when I get people like doing classics degrees. This is
(41:07):
fucking cool. Seriously, thank you all for your kind reviews.
They like honestly me in the world to Me, Let's
Talk about MIT's Baby is written and produced by me Live.
Albert MICHAELA. Smith is the Hermes to my Olympians, my
assistant producer. The podcast is hosted and monetized by iHeartMedia.
Listen on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Help
me continue bringing you the world of Greek mythology and
(41:28):
the Ancient Mediterranean by becoming a patron, we get bonus
episodes and more. Visit patreon dot com slash mits Baby,
or click the link in this episode's description. I am
live and I love this shit.
Hello there, This is let's talk about myths, baby, and
I am live the one who brings you all the
mythology all the time, and I mean literally all of
the time, like over five thousand words of mythology every
week just in these Tuesday episodes.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
Sometimes I just think about that, you know, like the
actual volume of words that I get to write about
Greek mythology, just even during a single month. It is bananas, uh,
but it's seriously fucking fun and you all, you know,
want it and you help me turn it into a career,
so I am not complaining, but it is an interesting
thing to look at the volume of words sometimes though,
(01:15):
amidst all the deep, you know, nerd level wanderings that
I do these days, you know, digging and diving into
the depths of obscure sources and unheard of stories or characters.
Like sometimes I just love to return to the roots,
like the pure, straight like famous myths, but with a twist.
(01:37):
Except well, I've been doing this for six years, so
you just know that now, even when I want to
return to a simpler, famous myth, I'm still gonna tell
you every goddamn detail imaginable, Like today, where I thought
you know who I mentioned peripherally, like you know all
the time, but I rarely really get to dive deep
into like fucking Heracles. That guy he had his hand
(01:59):
in every pot, but or rather he scared his opponents
so badly that they hid in the same pots. But today,
you know, I thought, I want to talk about Heracles.
I want to dive deeper into his origin story, maybe
the labors he's so famous for. You know, it's been
like five years since I talked about those, and I
want to dive. I want to dive so much deeper. Plus,
(02:21):
if I'm being totally honest with you all, last year
I spent like over one hundred and fifty dollars on
a fucking Heracles book that I have yet to use.
But I thought was going to be so helpful. So
this is me, This is me forcing myself to get
my money's worth. But then when I, you know, when
I decided to look at Heracles a little closer, I realized, actually, no,
(02:43):
you know who deserves better his fucking mother, al Cameni.
She is the mother of the biggest, baddest, best hero
of Greek myth and yet how little everyone talks about
her as a real person outside of that motherhood. Gods. No,
(03:05):
I prefer talking about women outside of motherhood. So today
we're maybe weren't you reintroducing Heracles, but we're doing it
by devoting an episode to the stories of his mother, Alcmeni.
(03:32):
This is episode two twenty eight. Before Heracles, there was Alcmeni,
the woman behind the greatest hero or like her, who
(03:58):
left home and country and care to thebes following warlike Amphytrion,
even Alcmene, the daughter of Electrion, gatherer of the people.
She surpassed the tribe of womankind in beauty, and in height,
and in wisdom. None vied with her of those who
(04:20):
mortal women bear of union with mortal men. Her face
and her dark eyes wafted such charm as comes from
golden Aphrodite, and she so honored her husband in her
heart as none of womankind did before her. Alcmenie was
(04:41):
born to a very very illustrious family in Argaullis. Her
father was Electrion, the son of none other than Perseus
and Andromeda, the founding heroes of that region of the Peloponnese.
Her mother, you know, we know less about, or rather
there's just like a debate as to who exactly Alcmene's
(05:01):
mother was, and in all cases she's just kind of
a possible name. The point, though, is that Alchimeni was
the granddaughter of Perseus and thus great granddaughter of Zeus.
Alcameni was the only daughter of Electrion, king of Myceni,
who had a whole collection of sons. It was Alcimeni
(05:25):
and her nine brothers, whose names I won't trouble you with,
because well, they don't live long. Alchemeni was an impressive
woman in many ways, even aside from her heroic heritage
and status as princess of Myceni. Even Hesiod and the
quote that I read up at the top there from
(05:47):
this shield of Heracles, concedes that she was not only
the most beautiful woman around, but she was also the
wisest and well the tallest. Good for her. Still, this
is Hesiod after all, So the most impressive part of
Elchemeni to him is how much she honored her husband.
(06:11):
But we will get to that husband. I, unlike Hesiod,
am far more interested in Alcmeni. When Alcmeni was young,
just nearing that age old enough to be married, the
king of Megara, peterre Laus tried to come and lay
claim to the throne of Myceni. He brought a whole
(06:34):
group of men with him, called the Taffians, and they
attempted to take control of the kingdom. Electrion's sons defended
their city. They fought the Taffians, and only one of
the nine sons of Electrion survived the battle, Lecymnius, who
was simply too young to have fought at all. So
(06:57):
el Cameni was left with only one sibling when she
used to have nine, and this stuck with her. Most
of Peterrelaus's sons were killed two but many of the
rest of his men, those who had been part of
the attack on Myceni and of the killing of electrion sons,
(07:18):
survived and fled. But they didn't just flee after their
attack on the city, they also stole a bunch of
cattle and eventually sold them off to the king of
nearby Ellis Polyxenus. Faced with a kingdom that has now
been absolutely torn to shreds. Almost all of his sons
(07:39):
and heirs have been killed, Electrion decides to sort out
a new successor. A man named Amphytrion made a name
for himself when he traveled to Ellis and he retrieved
Electrion's stolen cattle, returning them to myceni. I want to
make this a joke, you know, like so much drama
(08:00):
and bloodshed relating to stolen cattle. But obviously this would
have been like an enormous issue in the ancient world.
Cattle are important. They are pricey as hell, and they're
a major time investment. If the cattle that you've been
raising for however many years, are suddenly stolen, like, you're
kind of fucked. So, with his sons dead and his
kingdom in major need of sorting out, Electron decides to
(08:23):
give his kingdom and his daughter in marriage to the
man who retrieved the cattle. And it really makes a
lot of sense, And that's what Electron decides. And Fitrion
has proven himself to be a good man and thus
a good husband for his only daughter, Alcmenie, and a
good man to take over the ruling of Mycenie. This
(08:48):
is it's decided, and it seems that it's all sorted
quite quickly, because the next dramatic plot point comes upon
the official return of the cattle. I don't know. Maybe
it took a while for them to be brought back
to Myceni, because in the meantime, Mfittrion has returned with
the news that he is bringing back the cattle, and
(09:08):
thus has been granted both the kingdom of Myceni and
this marriage to Alcmeni. Everything rhymes. I wish I could
avoid it. It sounds like a poem anyway, Electrion, he
is one requirement of Mfittrion upon his marriage to Alcmeni.
(09:29):
Electriancy is bent on avenging his son's deaths. That's why
he's so happy to give up his kingdom to m Vitrion,
like it doesn't matter to him any longer. What matters
is avenging his sons, the sons who would never be
able to take over the kingdom that he had been
so prepared to give them. So he told m Vitrion
(09:50):
that he could marry Alchemeni, but that they were forbidden
from consummating the marriage until Electrion has written turned from
his avenging journey. He's gonna go out, He's gonna kill
the men who killed his sons, and when he comes back,
(10:11):
then his daughter can have sex with her new husband.
Until then, Alcmene needed to remain a virgin. This, I
promise is important and not just weird and gross, because
while Electrion he never has the chance to go off
and avenge his sons, he only had the chance to
(10:33):
have m Fittrion swear this oath before. Shortly after, as
as Mfitrion is dealing with the returned cattle, one of
them charges at him. Electrion seems to be nearby. Maybe he's,
you know, also dealing with the cattle, or he's preparing
to head off to avenge these sons. But Mfittrion, without thinking,
(10:55):
he throws a club at one of the charging cows,
just hoping to it from attacking him. But the club
rebounded off the cow's horns, and well, it hit Electreon
in the head and killed him. This is one of
(11:31):
those stories where it's just it's kind of difficult not
to make that sound silly, like I get it. This
is a tragedy. The poor man was mourning eight dead sons.
He had to marry off his daughter so that his
kingdom wouldn't be left with nothing, you know, so that
she wouldn't be left with nothing, and then he's killed
in such a random and well like, not particularly heroic way.
(11:54):
Greek myths do love an unexpected death story, and the
other Greek myths love an accidental murder that then requires
travel and resulting purification. It's a long standing trope in
Greek myth. Man accidentally kills another man. He is very
sad and sorry. It definitely wasn't his intention, and thus
(12:17):
we don't have to think badly of him. But he's
then required to travel to another kingdom and seek purification
from that king, and then he's okay. Mfitrion's story is
no different, but because of the horrible timing the entrusting
of Myceni to Mfitrion just before the murder, the kingdom
(12:37):
itself is at the mercy of this accidental murder. Senialus,
Electrion's brother, took this opportunity. He used Electrion's accidental death
as a pretext to banish Emfittrion and Alchemeni and the
surviving son her brother Kim. They're banished from Myceni and
(13:02):
from the whole of our Golis. The very moment Mfittrion
is gone, Sthenalus seized the kingdom of Myceni and nearby
Tyrans too, for himself and for his sons, and according
to at least later versions, you know, trying to tie
all of the mythological stories together, he entrusted the city
(13:23):
of Medea, not Medea. It's difficult. It's an i to
none other than the sons of Pelops, Atreus and Thiastes.
But we're not concerned with them now, at least not
until next month, when we dive straight into the murderous
and cannibalistic play about the very same characters. Today, though,
(13:45):
we're concerned with Alcameni because she's been married to m Fittrion.
She was banished along with him. It didn't matter whether
or not she wanted to join him, even after he'd
accidentally killed her father. Sthenelus was quick to action. As
soon as he had the opportunity to rid my scene
of his competition, he did it. He banished Mfittrion, and
(14:06):
because of that he could banish Alchemeni and even her
surviving brother Lachymnius. He knew exactly which threats to get
rid of, basically anyone with a rightful claim to the throne.
That he has just seized for himself. So Alcameni goes
off with Mfittrion and her brother and she makes the
(14:28):
best out of her situation. She's a strong woman. She's
just dealt with the deaths of eight of her brothers
and then her father, like she has been through it all,
and she comes out stronger and not willing to let
anyone dictate her life. They land in Thebes, and frankly,
I wish there was some kind of like backstory for
why they would travel so far. I imagine it would be.
(14:50):
You know that the most of the Peloponnese and certainly
all of the Argolid would have fallen to Stenalus's stolen throne,
but it's notable how far they traveled. It also becomes
a vitally important to later mythos surrounding Heracles, including what
I spoke about during my series on Sparta earlier this year.
Like this, this banishment, this forced migration of Alchemeni and
(15:11):
Emfitrion is then Heracles's later tie to the Peloponnese and
the reason why the Heracleida have claim to it when
they wage the War of the mythological Dorian Invasion. The
whole spartan origin story. But I'm getting ahead of myself
because Heracles mythology is just it's so fascinating and so
(15:31):
deeply tied to historical beliefs at the time too. The point, though,
is Alchmeni and Mfittrion reached Thebes where they're purified by
the king Creon. Yes, I think that Creon of Oedipus
fame there. Alchemenie's brother Lacymnius marries Creon's sister Paramede, and
(15:51):
after Imfittrion agrees to handle I mean a lady fox,
a vixen who's been causing trouble in the region. After that,
Creon agrees to help him do the one thing Alcmeni
has asked of him, avenge the deaths of her brothers.
Alchemenie is the one in control of things here, in
control of her own marriage. She knows that she holds
(16:14):
the cards. Like her new husband accidentally killed her father
and he got them banished, and he had her family's
kingdom stolen out from under them. So if Mfittrion wants
to have an even remotely happy marriage, he has got
some groveling to do. But Alchimenie doesn't want his apologies,
she wants bloodshed, and Fittrion does everything his wife asks
(16:39):
of him. But frankly, I have told this story before
and I went into details of what he did then.
So if you're curious about that deadly vixen the Lady Fox,
have a listen to past Heracles episodes, because again, today
is about Alchemeni and Alcmenie. She had another requirement of
her husband. She was not to sleep with him until
(17:02):
he avenged her brothers. Basically, it was just a continuation
of what he had already agreed to Electrion. It's a
necessary plot point, but it's also just like so real,
you know, like this woman has been through it. Her
life has been destroyed completely, and she's doing all that
she can to keep herself together. She doesn't want to
fuck a man that she's known for like a hot minute,
(17:22):
let alone the one who was the cause of her
father's death and her exile. Like nah, he is going
to have to earn access to her. So that's the deal.
You want a happy wife, you want to have sex.
Wage war on the people who killed Alchimeni's brothers, take
them all out, make them pay then return to Thebes,
(17:44):
and Alcmeni will consider making their marriage official, and Fittrion
again does everything that's asked of him. I gather that
it wasn't so much you know about the sex either,
but like an actual human desire to atone for what
he's done for all we know. But I'm Vitrion and
his marriage to Alchemeni for that matter. He seems to
actually have been, like maybe maybe a good guy. His
(18:08):
crimes were accidental and he's doing everything he can to
make up for them. The bar is low. It's just
that also, well, you know, things have been happening behind
the scenes. You see, Zeus has taken an interest and
the woman that was so famously beautiful, famously loyal, famously tall.
(18:30):
Zeus has been watching Alcmeni, and he has decided to
be very zeus about how he feels. He's also pretty
excited to take advantage of the rules that Alcmeni has
set for her husband and the benefit of it all.
(18:51):
Zeus really does prefer his women untouched, like how does
one properly convey again sound gross? The most dangerous existence
(19:33):
for a woman in Greek mythology is to be not
only unfathomably beautiful but also pure. Add to that a
woman known for honoring her husband and being hot and tall,
and you've got a recipe fit only for Zeus. This
is from Hesiod's Shield of Heracles, telling the story of
(19:55):
exactly how Zeus came to be the father of gree
most illustrious and enviable hero. Quote. But the father of
men and gods was forming another scheme in his heart
to beget one to defend against destruction gods and men
(20:17):
who eat bread. So he arose from Olympus by night,
pondering guile in the deep of his heart, and yearned
for the love of the well girded woman. Quickly he
came to the Typheonium, and from there again wise Zeus
went on and trod the highest peak of Phyicium. There
he sat and planned marvelous things in his heart. So
(20:42):
in one night Zeus shared the bed and love of
the neat ankled daughter of Electrion, and fulfilled his desire.
And in the same night Amphytrion, gatherer of the people,
the glorious hero, came to his house. When he had
did his great task, he hastened not to go to
(21:03):
his bondsmen and shepherds afield, but first went unto his wife.
Such desire took hold on the shepherd of the people,
and as a man who had escaped joyfully from misery,
whether of sore disease or cruel bondage, So then did Mfittrion,
when he had wound up all his heavy task, come
glad and welcome to his home. And all night long
(21:26):
he lay with his modest wife, delighting in the gifts
of golden Aphrodite. What Zeus wants, Zeus gets, or rather takes.
While Inmfittrion is on his way home to Alcmeni, having
done everything she asked of him, having avenged the tragic
(21:46):
deaths of her brothers. That is when Zeus strikes against Alcmeni.
Some versions of the story say that Zeus came to
Alcmeni disguised as Mfittrion, leading her to believe that she
was having sex with her husband for the very first time.
After you know, he's returned to her a hero in
her eyes. Other versions of the story just say that
(22:09):
Zeus like schemed, that he misled her in some way,
that he deceived her. However, he did it though it
was nefarious, and Alchemeni did not know who it was
that she was sleeping with or what it might mean.
And then Mfititrion returned and the couple had sex on
the very same night. And that part is key because
(22:32):
after spending the night with Zeus and Infittrion, however it
might have happened, Helchameni becomes pregnant with twins. Greek myth
does love a twin story where only one of them
is the child of gods. It certainly adds drama. Most
accounts of the story suggest that it isn't until the
(22:54):
babies are born that Alchemenian Mfittrion learn that she's pregnant
by Zeus, but the late of Pseudopolodorus adds another level
of intrigue. According to that version, quote, when Mfittrion arrived
and saw that he was not welcomed by his wife,
he inquired the cause, and when she told him that
he had come the night before and slept with her,
(23:16):
he learned from Tyresius how Zeus had enjoyed her. That
version is explicit too. You know that when Zeus had
sex with Alchmeni, he did so like while deceiving her
into thinking that he was her husband. It's it's clear,
and it's and it's just gross. Quote Zeus came by
(23:39):
night and prolonging the night threefold, he assumed the likeness
of Emfititrion and bedded with Alchemeni. He even adds that
Zeus made his false Mfittrion even more convincing by telling
Alcmeni like all about how he defeated the men and
killed her brothers. So this take where everyone finds out
(24:00):
Zeus's lie and where his deception is like so explicit.
It isn't just fun because it's like a ninety soap
opera level drama, but also because despite the fact that
Infittrion is told explicitly that his wife had sex with
Zeus and that like one of the children she's gonna
bear is Zeus's child, their marriage seems unaffected. In fact, Alcmeni,
(24:20):
aside from the obviously disturbing idea that Zeus coerced her
into having sex with him, she remains pretty untouched by
the usual divine retribution that comes with things like this. Instead,
it's her son who faces Harah's wrath and isn't that
like a little like, if disturbingly refreshing. Also, yeah, you
(24:44):
heard that right. According to a few different versions, Zeus
was so like taken with Elkmeni that he couldn't stand
to have her for just one night, so instead he
convinced Helios the literal son not to rise for three days,
so that he could basically have three days worth of
sex with Alcmeni in one night. No one could say
(25:09):
Zeus isn't inventive in his fuckery. So Alcmeni is pregnant
with these twins, and about two months into her pregnancy
give or take, another woman becomes pregnant. Her name is Nickippi,
but of course she's better known as Sthenalus's wife. And
another five months after that, Zeus makes a little announcement
(25:32):
to the rest of the gods. He sits everyone down
on Mount Olympus and he tells them that, in what
can only be assumed to be pointless bragging, that a
child is about to be born who is not only
a descendant of the famed Perseus, but who will reign
over the kingdom of Mycenee. And what do you know?
(25:53):
Harah takes note of this news, careful, careful, note. Once
Zeus has given up the game to his wife, who
is always looking for a reason and a way to
punish him via punishing others, you know, he presumably flits
off to fuck around with another mortal or nymph, leaving
(26:13):
Harah to her planning. Or alternatively, Harah's scheming begins before
Zeus even has the chance to boast about his soon
to be child. Instead, in the Iliad, Egamemnon tells the
story of Heracles' birth, and in his version, Harah immediately
knows what Zeus has done, and it's actually she who
(26:37):
tricks Zeus into swearing that the next child born in
the Persian line will rule over the region. However it happens,
though it is officially determined that the next baby born
who is also a descendant of Perseus, will reign in
some important way. And with this decided one way or
(27:00):
the other, Haarah jumps right into the action, moving her
plan along to its next steps. This isn't her first
husband fucking around, rodeo, and she calls for her daughter
Ayi Lithia, the goddess of childbirth. Yes, I know you're
probably thinking of another goddess of childbirth, like Leda or
(27:22):
Artemis and you know, questioning me and you're not wrong.
Speaker 1 (27:25):
Ei.
Speaker 2 (27:25):
Lithia, though, is the like official goddess of childbirth, as in,
she doesn't just help out, you know, like the other
two do, but she quite literally controls labor. Without her,
nothing happens. Haarah calls upon Eilythia, and she orders her
(27:45):
daughter to do her a favor, though is it a
favor if it's also an order? Haah tells Ailethia to
lengthen Alcmene's pregnancy or to keep her in labor forever, whatever,
It takes, anything to ensure that the next child born,
who is a descendant of Perseus is not also the
(28:08):
child that her naughty husband has fathered behind her back.
And so, alongside this delay of Alcamene's giving birth, Ailethia
also grants Sthenalus's wife, Nickippi, a shortened pregnancy. Hers only
needs to last seven months, which mathematically would put us
(28:31):
pretty even between the two. Harah wins this one with
the help by the Lithia. Harah has Alcmene's labor withheld
long enough to ensure that it is Sthenalus's wife who
gives birth first. He and his wife named their son Eurystheus.
If that isn't already a familiar name, it's going to
(28:53):
become pretty important. Eurystheus goes on to become the King
of Myceni, or better known as the King of Tyrans.
He's just as much a descendant of Perseus as the
children that Alchimene is about to give birth to, but
he isn't also the son of Zeus. And yet it's
best not to think about what it means to be
(29:14):
a descendant of Perseus, you know, given Perseus is also
the son of Zeus. Shortly after Eurystheus is born, Alchemeni
is finally visited by the goddess Ailethia and allowed to
give birth to her two children. These twins, though only
one of them gets to be the child of a god.
(29:55):
Alchemede's twins are born, and importantly, both are seen legitimate
sons of Mfittrion. It isn't clear, you know, in all
the varied versions of conception, but this legitimacy is tied
to the idea that Zeus deceived Alchemeni, like that he
presented himself as being her husband, and that for all
(30:16):
she knew, she was only having sex with her husband
like it's gross over everything else. But it also means
that while one of the two children born to Alchemeni,
if it Cles, is entirely mortal and the biological child
of Mfittrion, the other, Heracles, is both the biological son
of Zeus and explicitly the son of m Fittrion in
(30:38):
all the ways that it matters. Like I said earlier, though,
it also just makes me kind of fond of m Fittrion.
Like in comparison to most men in these sorts of stories,
he handles the whole thing pretty well. He doesn't take
any issue with what happened when it comes to Alchemeni,
and he raises both children as if they're his own.
As far as the mortal realm is concerned, the children
(31:00):
are just that they are the children of Alcameni and Amptrion.
But as far as Harah is concerned, one of them
is a menace on whom that she is willing to
devote a lifetime's worth of fe fury. Any guess which
of the two children that would be. No, Okay, I
(31:21):
will tell you it's Heracles, and not just because the
name Heracles just means very ironically, the Glory of hara
A late source Dietor Siculus, explains Heracles's name by noting
that actually, when he was first born, his parents just
named him like Alcius or Alcides, which is connected with
(31:43):
his strength even as a baby. But that isn't actually
something found earlier. Heracles appears to just be his name,
and it's just poetic as hell that the entirety of
his life will be dedicated to defeating whatever Harah throws
at him, and you know, perpetually trying to escape per
wrath is the core of his very existence. I never
(32:06):
enjoy having to tell the stories where Haraah is a
jealous wife, like punishing everyone except Zeus for the shit
that he puts her through. But when it comes to
Heracles specifically, like she's so wildly dramatic and violent and
has such incredibly creative ideas for how she'll try to
kill him that like, I can't even be mad at
the misogyny inherent, you know, in so much of her character.
(32:28):
She gives me Medea vibes when it comes to Heracles,
the one like Jason, you know, he really didn't actually
do anything to anger Harah. Beyond just like being born.
Speaker 1 (32:39):
But she is.
Speaker 2 (32:40):
She's just so creative it is hard to be bothered.
And that creativity starts early while Heracles is still just
a baby in his crib, you know, nestled up with
his twin brother, Ificles. Even then, he gets the opportunity
to defeat the first of what will become many, many,
(33:00):
many attempts on his life by the Queen of the Gods.
While Heracles is in that crib with his brother, you know,
both full on newborns, Hara sends two monstrous snakes slithering
up and into the crib.
Speaker 1 (33:15):
Ugh.
Speaker 2 (33:16):
Baby Heracles is ready, though he's like his half brother
Hermes that way, you know, ready to rock. As a
tiny baby, he manages to pull himself up well enough
that he can grasp his two little newborn hands around
each snake and basically strangle them to death while his
mother and nurse look on. And what I can only
(33:38):
imagine is a kind of fascinating horror. One of the
sources that I'm using for this a chapter in the
Oxford Handbook to Heracles, the one I mentioned at the top,
notes that in the sources that discuss this moment, they
use the word MACKI essentially making it clear that like
this moment, while still a newborn, is heracles first taste
(34:01):
of battle. Like when it comes to that word, think
Titanomichi amazonmichee, like it's it's the same here, it's just
a battle between a newborn and snakes. There isn't much
about Heracles's childhood or much at all about the time
that he might have spent with his mother. So as
much as I want, you know, to keep talking about Alchemeni, explicitly,
(34:25):
her story kind of drops off. Like so many women
in mythology, It's tied entirely to the men around her,
and once they're no longer with her, she's no longer
a plot point. So instead of you know more about Alchemeni,
We're gonna finish the episode off with one of the
more bizarre and entirely inexplicable moments from Heracles's childhood, or rather,
(34:46):
you know, other than the whole killing snakes as a
baby in a crib moment, the only other anecdote that
we have about him while he is a baby, and
that is the time that Harah breastfed him. Why would
she do that, you might be asking, or you certainly
should be. But the answer is like, there is no answer,
(35:08):
But what I can tell you is that it is
definitely always weird. One source says that Hermes brought the
baby Heracles to Hara while she was sleeping and just
like had him latch on to her, which again weird
and like why. Another says that ALCHEMENI actually like exposed
(35:31):
Heracles out of fear of Hara, and that Athena and
Harah found him. Athena, you know, who of course is
like guardian of heroes in so many cases, then asks
Harah to nurse him, you know, to make him big
and strong. But while he like, he's already too big
and strong, and he hurts her with how hard he
tries to nurse from her. In both of these cases,
(35:54):
the moment itself results in Harah like pulling away from
the baby with such force that her milk spatters across
the sky to make the milky way. So that's a
vaguely nice result, maybe, I suppose these authors though they
also like to say that, you know, drinking Hara's milk
is what made Heracles immortal, you know, different from those
(36:15):
other heroes. Now, all the sources that explicitly relate Heracles
is nursing from Hara come from like quite late in
the mythological sources. There isn't any explicit example of this
from earlier than like say, first century BCE maybe, but
there is a moment in the Iliad which some argue
could be referencing that moment. It says that there was
(36:37):
a time that Heracles attacked Hara, and since these moments
of him nursing at her breast like violently, are you
know about the only other references we have to anything
like an attack, It's sometimes argued that maybe it's referencing
an instance of this. Regardless. Heracles, you know, grows up
with two strong women in his life, his mother Elchemenie,
(37:00):
who stood up for herself and was generally interesting, and Harah,
who hates him so much but is ridiculously creative about
it and maybe nursed him in a weird and painful
way that gave us a galaxy Nerds ares Nerds, thank
(37:33):
you for listening. I'm actually really excited that I got
to devote this whole episode to Alchemedie, you know, even
if we had to talk an awful lot about the
men around her and It's funny because like researching it,
I found like it was a really good I thought
that I found a lot basically, and then reading it
out again, I'm like, it's so piecemeal because even when
(37:53):
it revolves around a hero like Heracles, if I try
to focus not on Heracles but on a woman, you know,
it just it's not the same as much as I
wanted to be. We're gonna do it anyway, because these
ALCHEMENI deserves the best. You know. It's obviously like a
big concern of mind focusing on the stories of women,
(38:15):
but specifically, like I really trying to eventually put out
something a little more like official when it comes to
these women. And this was great inspiration, even if it
was also frustrating. But Alchimenie deserves the world Heracles. Eh.
But this will be the start of a couple of
episodes on Heracles before we shift to a new topic.
I'm gonna return to him, you know, every once in
(38:36):
a while over the next few months, while revisiting his
famous labors, because I want to, and also, you know,
it's been like six years. Those were really really poorly
researched back in the day. And instead I'm gonna make
that one hundred and fifty dollars book worth the money
I paid for it. But also, you know, when it
comes to lengthy sources that I've yet to cover in
(38:58):
excessive detail, we are really heading down to just what's
left is like mostly plays, and I fucking love covering
plays on the show, but I also don't want to
inundate you guys with only plays all the time. So
before we get to Spooky season and Seneca's tragedy about
the man who fed his son to the gods while
a fury looked on, We're gonna just go into the
nitty gritty of the absolute, hands down most impressive and
(39:20):
most famous hero of ancient Greece. Hair fucking please, but
I'm so thrilled you know that I got to start
with this episode about his mother, ALCHAMENI It just she
deserves the best treatment I could give her. And before
I leave all of you magnificent listeners with one of
your own beautiful five star reviews of my show, I
want to let you know that if you're listening on Spotify,
I'm trying out a new thing. I'm gonna be giving
(39:42):
you all questions or polls at the end of episodes
as often as I can remember to do them, or
like have a good question to ask, It'll pop up
on Spotify and I would love to hear your answers
or get your votes. Your answers, if they're appropriate and
not ask Holary will be published on Spotify under the episode.
So it's a pretty cool new function and I'm kind
of excited to see how I can use it to
(40:04):
connect with you all a bit more, but also have
your comments listed on the episodes. It's kind of fun,
so you know, interact with it please, all right? As always,
here is one of your fucking wonderful reviews, the things
that make my days so much better, particularly when I'm
feeling like an anxious mess who can't stop believing that
one day I'll be forced to stop doing this podcast
and my life will blow up in my face. And like,
(40:24):
those days happen more than I'd like, but your reviews
save me, so thank you. This lovely and so kind
review comes from a user called abbyg five in my
own Canada. Incredibly informative and comedic. This is my favorite
podcast and I recommend it so much that all my
friends are sick of hearing me talk about it. I've
been listening for three years and I love seeing how
lives narrative and research style has progressed, and how she
(40:46):
continues to incorporate present day issues into the myths. I
adore her feminist perspective and her incredible style of storytelling.
Increased my love for Greek mythology tenfold and even led
to me including it as a minor in my university studies.
Congratulations on six years Live, and I can't wait to
continue listening for many more years to come. Thank you
when I get people like doing classics degrees. This is
(41:07):
fucking cool. Seriously, thank you all for your kind reviews.
They like honestly me in the world to Me, Let's
Talk about MIT's Baby is written and produced by me Live.
Albert MICHAELA. Smith is the Hermes to my Olympians, my
assistant producer. The podcast is hosted and monetized by iHeartMedia.
Listen on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Help
me continue bringing you the world of Greek mythology and
(41:28):
the Ancient Mediterranean by becoming a patron, we get bonus
episodes and more. Visit patreon dot com slash mits Baby,
or click the link in this episode's description. I am
live and I love this shit.
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