October 20, 2022 • 32 mins
A Nazi spy is tasked with uncovering underground Allied resistance networks. He was favored by the SS as a top hunter. Robert Alesh was a Luxembourger priest better known in France by his alias: "Father Robert Ackuin." The raids, arrests, and executions that Alesh’s treacherous work made possible set British intelligence back months. Alesh’s time as a priest served him well in his search for Jews and the Allied spies. Alesh begins working for one of the most evil men in history: the head of the Nazi Gestapo in Lyon, France: Klaus Barbie. Alesh receives his first hard evidence of the existence of “The Limping Lady,” the Allied spy running prison breaks and sabotage operations. So Robert Alesh and Virginia Hall begin a game of cat and mouse.
This episode contains interviews with:
• Dr. Ludivine Broch: A scholar of World War II French history and lecturer at the University of Westminster, UK; Editor of Contemporary European History, associate fellow of the Birbeck Institute for the study of Antisemitism; co-founder of the French History Network
• Chris Costa: Executive Director of the International Spy Museum, a 34-year veteran of the Department of Defense, and he served 25 years in the United States Army working in counterintelligence, human intelligence and with special operations forces in Central America, Europe, and the Middle East.
• Karen Schaefer: worked for the CIA for 26 years on assignments overseas in Latin America, Europe, Afghanistan and Iraq, where she was Chief of Base and holding several different leadership positions including Chief of Operations, Directorate of Science and Technology; Deputy Associate Director of Military Affairs; and Deputy Chief of Counterintelligence, Near East Division.
• Thomas Kselman: professor emeritus at Notre Dame University, specialist in French religious history
Learn more at diversionaudio.com/good-assassins
“Good Assassins” is a production of Diversion Audio, in association with iHeartPodcasts. Featuring the voices of Matthew Amendt, Orlagh Cassidy, Raphael Corkhill, Manoel Felciano, Sean Gormley, Mikaela Izquierdo, Lenne Klingaman, Andrew Polk, John Pirkis, Steve Routman.
This season is hosted by Stephan Talty and written by C.D. Carpenter. Produced and directed by Kevin Thomsen for Real Jetpacks Productions. Story Editing by Jacob Bronstein with editorial direction from Scott Waxman. Additional research and reporting by Sophie McNulty. Theme music by Tyler Cash. Sound Design, Mixing, and Mastering by Paul Goodrich. Sound Editing by Justin Kilpatrick. Executive Producers: Jacob Bronstein, Mark Francis and Scott Waxman for Diversion Audio.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
Diversion audio. A note this episode contains descriptions of violence
and torture that may be disturbing for some audiences. Please
take care in listening. This series is based on historical
characters and real events. Some dialogue has been imagined for
(00:29):
dramatic purposes when no primary source material is available. Give
them a father account had heard the words a thousand
times for giving me fai for I have sinned. It
(00:54):
has been since my last confession. As the priest listened,
he considered the turns his life had taken that led
him to this moment. He joined the clergy a few
years earlier with a call to serve the people. But now,
as he sat outside an isolated prison cell near Paris,
(01:15):
meeting with anonymous prisoners, he wasn't listening for sins. He
was listening for secrets. The prisoner continued listing his personal failings,
a scandalous affair of broken marriage, dishonesty, lustful thoughts. Believing
the Germans would execute him in a few months, he
bared his soul to the priest in hopes of spiritual redemption.
(01:39):
But Father Accom wasn't interested in saving this man's soul.
You have a pattern of disloyalty, my son? Have you
also been disloyal to Germany? The man in the cell
spit at the priest's feet, ranting and raving against the
(01:59):
knots the occupation. Father Accolm listened patiently. After the prisoner
had worn himself out, A calm press forward, frightening the
man with ghost stories about the hell that awaited him
if he didn't come clean. Unburden yourself with the truth
and save your soul. How have you been disloyal to Germany?
(02:22):
My son? Then the prisoner cracked says a plan here,
it's a prison to help Piere to Bonco escape and
tell me who is involved in this plan. Finally, the
(02:47):
man who went by father account had found the secret
he was after. It was in. Just a few months earlier,
the Nazis had captured British spy Pierre de van cour Vomcorps,
was a top agent with Britain's Special Operations Executive or
(03:07):
s OE. He was responsible for leading a network of
French resistors and British agents in the Nazi occupied regions
of France, and his capture was considered a major victory
for German secret intelligence. He has since become the celebrity
inmate in the prison. The Gestapo had known vom Cour's
(03:29):
arrest would light up the resistance. He was a man
full of secrets and if the Brits didn't rescue him quickly,
years of British strategy would become known to the Germans
and they would have to start from scratch. The Nazis
had difficulty persuading the prisoners to give up any information
they had, and so they opted for a more emotional approach.
(03:52):
They informed them of their execution dates and sent in
Father Akong to give them one final shot at redemption.
One of them took the babe, where are you going?
I have not start since that, the priest promptly notified
(04:21):
his Nazi superiors of the escape plan. The prisoners involved
were quickly executed. Bomb Corps was moved to solitary confinement
and then transferred to a concentration camp by the end
of the year. The priests expected some kind of promotion
for his hard work. He'd been interrogating prisoners for weeks. Instead,
(04:42):
the s S would broadcast a different message. Return them immediately.
You'll have a new target. I'm Steven Talty and from diversion.
(05:03):
This is good Assassin's Season two. Being killed would be
the easy part. Being tortured would be the hard part.
Our intel suggests she is behind many of the prison
bricks all over the country. She is dangerous, so sabotage
plus a little espionage paramilitary operations make things blow up.
(05:27):
The message for Captain Bobby and I believe I have
found the mist of the Limping Lady. Episode three, The Priest.
The VS government begins to intensify it's exclusionary policies over
(05:52):
the years and its repression of resists, of Communists, of Jews, etcetera.
That's Dr Ludavine Brock from previous episodes, Jesus Scholar of
World War two French history from the University of Westminster.
At the start of the war, there were about three
hundred thousand Jews living in France. Once Nazis occupied the country,
(06:14):
the government began collecting data like addresses and names of
the Jews currently living there. In the summer of nineteen
forty two, using these lists, the French police began rounding
up Jews across the country. In total, about seventy six
thousand get deported between ninety ninety four. More than half
(06:34):
of those get deported. In that single summer of nineteen
forty two, you have thousands of Jews, of Jewish Men,
women and children who are in turned into this feldive,
who are taken from their homes, drive from their homes
and brought to this feldive and then transferred to a camp.
Now this is a very visible process. It's also very
clear that it's the French police. They need the alliance
(06:57):
of the French police in order to carry out this crime.
This very public atrocity set off widespread alarm and outrage,
and as Dr Brock adds, not only does the French
police help with the mass roundup of over ten thousand
Jews in July, but it also transports Jews who were
(07:18):
interned into camps in the south of France win the
Free Zone. It transfers them to draw which is also
known as the Entertamber, to Auschwitz, which is the biggest
interman camp for for Jews in France at the time,
and it basically hands over its foreign Jews to the Germans.
(07:39):
The romantic city of Paris was stained with blood and violence.
In addition, living conditions had deteriorated in the years since
the Germans invaded. In food was scarce, local transit uprooted,
the economy tarnished, and violence all too common. And there
were the red was to deal with. Hidden around the country,
(08:03):
British and French agents telegraphs secret German plots back to
the UK, hoping to give the English a much needed
edge against Hitler's forces. One of the Nazi operatives tasked
(08:25):
with uncovering the underground spine networks was Robert Alesh, a
Luxembourger priest better known in France by his alias father
Robert account. At the start of the war, he'd actually
aligned himself first with the French and worked hiding immigrant
Jews from the Germans in his parish. He was never
named an official with any particular agency, but Robert Alesh
(08:49):
became instrumental in the spy networks, connecting refugees and other
agents to safe houses throughout the country. But when the
Nazis took over France, they captured Alesh and made him
a simple offer become a double agent or be sent
to the camps. He didn't hesitate and immediately began turning
(09:09):
over what he knew to the s S. The subsequent
rates arrests and executions that Alesha's deadly work made possible,
said British intelligence back months. In an effort to maintain
some anonymity while he worked in the field, Alesha began
(09:32):
going by a cone. So as an intelligence officer, I
tell people, when I did the work, I never was comfortable.
I always had a level of discomfort. That's Chris Costa,
the executive director of the International Spy Museum. He worked
(09:55):
as an intelligence officer for twenty five years. I just
couldn't afford to be overconfident. So the only time I
could rest is when I was home, I was recovered
and the operation was successful or complete. But even then,
even to this day, I reflect back and I don't
(10:16):
know how many surveillance I might have missed somewhere along
the way. And I don't know if subsequently some of
our sources weren't compromised years later, or people that I
met with and trained. I don't know if many of
the my Iraqi counterparts are alive or dead. I can
(10:38):
say the same thing for many of my Afghan partners
that I worked with or I trained, And I'd be
lying to you if I said I wasn't scared. There's
no sense of false bravado. There are times where it's
just scary. That's Karen Shafer, another former intelligence operative, reflecting
on the taxing nature of spy work when you're out
(11:01):
on the streets, I mean it is a solitary job
more often than not. I mean, yes, you can work
with others, you might have joint operations, but generally speaking,
it's a solitary life. It necessarily takes its toll on
you physically, emotionally, mentally. Absolutely, there's no question that it does.
(11:25):
I would say for most of us, it's offset by
the incredible sense of mission, the incredible sense of contribution. Alesh,
on the other hand, didn't have that same sense of mission,
that sense of duty. He was doing this because he
gave in. He was fully collaborating with the Nazis. Alesia's
(11:47):
time as a priest served him well in his search
for Jews and Allied spies. He was a relatively handsome
man n and considered approachable and friendly. He would attempt
to establish rapport with those he interrogated, and was soon
favored by the s S as a top hunter. After
(12:08):
uncovering the plot to break Pierre de von Corps out
of prison, he embarked de Jean France, where he had
learned the details of his next mission from his Nazi handlers.
It was in Dijon where Lesh first met. And there's
really no other way to put this. One of the
most evil men in history, the head of the local Gestapo,
(12:28):
Klaus Barbie. I'll introduce you to Barbie after the break.
Cruis Barbie was the head of the Gestapo in leon In.
(12:50):
So by this point the situation in France is pretty bad,
is quite tense. That's Ludivin Brock again, the French World
War Two historian. His mission is to suppress resistors and Jews.
That's what he's supposed to do, and that's exactly what
he's going to carry out. I think he probably causes
the deportation, slash death of over ten tho people, maybe
(13:12):
almost people. Barbie was so ferocious he earned the nickname
the Butcher of Theone. In one particularly galling case, Barbie
discovered and deported fifty children between the ages of five
and twelve who are hiding out in an orphanage. The
captured children were sent to their deaths at Auschwitz. In
(13:34):
the following clip from our interview with Ms. Brock, she
makes an interesting and horrific point about Klaus Barbie, his
Nazi police force and their quote zeal for their genocidal work.
It's interesting that the word zell comes up a lot
in the archives. He's going to carry out his mission of,
you know, suppressing Jews and resistance groups with great zell
(13:59):
and if if they act with cell it's more problematic,
you know, if you're not just following orders. Hello, Captain
Bobby Aleft, just good to finally meet you, High hit La,
high hit ler. I have been reading reports. M hm.
(14:25):
Yes you've been the kind of busines this country needs mine. Friends,
It's a forwarding job and to impress, Sir gustapo Ah,
but I would give for an army of men with
your attitude. We have so many bouncing about in the
streets playing police, no real respect. They salute straight and
(14:48):
enjoys the work. But in you they see a pride.
This is what I'm looking for. Thank you, sir. Are
you familiar? This's the city of Lyon here alesh of
would you prefer abbey either title? Sir? And yes I'm familiar.
(15:10):
Have you heard of this woman? This they call has
a limping lady? No, I haven't do is this your
Heidenstein's talk about her. She struts all over town with
an injured lake, a major asset to the resistance. Our
(15:32):
intel suggests she is behind many of the prison bricks
all over the country. She is dangerous m hm English French.
We believe she is Canadian, and that is the extent
of what we know. But she has become an effective
replacement for vombe care and we cannot have another of
(15:54):
him running around. I would like you to go to
Leon and sniff her out, use any method you deem necessary.
I found that engaging in good conversation is often enough
if there's more of work to be done in lyon
beyond this woman. I don't want to leave the impression
(16:15):
we are animals. Animals, yes, so many of our men
are animals. Animals are mindless. They attack to eat, to
fill their bellies, and then they said, I'm away to
find more. You and I we are not beasts. We
(16:39):
are philosophers, thinkers with responsibilities the exterminate these Jewish rats
for the good of others, for our children. Never let
yourself falter in madness or become a machine. These hands
of your skill, but only because it is our duty. ALESH.
(17:01):
They belonged to a man, never an animal. Now go
kills at one. As Alash made his way into Leone
by train, he thought about what he knew of Klaus
Barbie and his methods of interrogation. He never witnessed them himself,
(17:25):
but they become infamous. I should note for you here's
where I tell you a bit about tactics that can
only be described as torture. So take care in listening.
Rumors abounded that an interrogation from Klaus Barbie meant the
skin on your hands would be peeled off, starting at
the fingertips, and then doused with scalding hot water. There
(17:49):
are reports Barbie would hang his subjects on meat hooks
inserted through their shoulder blades and dumped them into ice
buckets to keep them conscious during questioning. He had actually
made handcuffs with inward facing spikes that would crank into
the wrist with the turn of the key. Every method
was effective. The Allegh believed the horrifying legend of Klaus
(18:11):
Barbie had already gotten around France. Everyone he encountered would
have their guard up. An alleghed like to work in
a different way. Now in Leone, Alesha had to figure
(18:38):
out his first move. He had burned through most of
his old resistance contacts two years earlier, so you'd have
to start from scratch. He'd have to put a lot
of miles into actual footwork and observe the people around him.
He realized quickly he couldn't approach people as an intimidating Nazi.
He had to play the part of the kind priest.
(19:01):
At the time, the Catholic Church in France officially supported
the new Fishy regime. There was a kind of sense
that authoritarian regimes, the top down authority, are interested in
working with the Catholic Church. That's Thomas Cassellman, a professor
emeritus at Notre Dame University who specializes in French religious history.
(19:26):
In the summer of nineteen forty, after Paton took power,
the leaders of the Catholic Church welcomed the new authoritarian
government with seemingly open arms. So there is a longstanding
hostility between republican regimes in France and the Catholic Church,
going back to the French Revolution and the Third Republic,
(19:47):
which began in eighteen seventy and lasted to nineteen forty.
They officially separated Church and state. So if you're a
bishop or a priest in nineteen forty and the rep
public is collapsing, you're not gonna feel bad about that,
and you might even embrace as in fact, the French
(20:08):
religious leadership did an alternative regime. Their their concern is
to protect their own interests, and leaders of the church
reaped the benefits. So in the early years of the
VC regime, especially Catholics were appointed to high positions for
the first time in the Third Republic, and so the
(20:30):
regime is reaching out to bring Catholics in and they
are happy to come on board. Although the official line
of the Catholic Church was one of support, dissent still endured.
Resistance to the regime from inside the Catholic Church grows
in the forties, but it grows from the bottom up
(20:52):
and not from the top down. One of the precipitating
events was the government roundup of Jews in the summer
of nineteen party two. The regime doesn't defend its Jewish citizens,
and that is a principle of factor, as I have
said already, for the creation of both general resistance but
(21:13):
also Catholic Resisians in particular, it is important to note However,
the top leaders of the Catholic Church remained steadfast, at
least publicly, in their support of the Vichy regime. Active
resistors remained a small minority. Alessious background is a man
of God pointed him in the direction of parishes where
(21:36):
he offered himself as a substitute priest and an additional
hand in services. Once he had access to a confessional booth,
he began to work the way he had with the prisoners,
balancing empathy and understanding with well chosen moments for guilt
and pressure. Oh my god, that's one of the worst
(22:00):
things a Catholic priest can do. In our interview with Casselman,
we explained Alesia's methods for uncovering resistance secrets because Elman
walked us through the gravity of what Alesha was doing,
the sacred code he was violating in a confessionals absolutely
between you and your confession. Your confessor can't tell anybody anything, superiors, nothing,
(22:26):
It's a sacred bond linking the confessor with his confess e.
Confession is what guarantees Catholics who are sentners. It is
their get out of jail card I means, it's what
allows them to think I'm not going to hell. And
so somebody who's committed a murder blown up, sabotaged a
(22:51):
train of Germans and killed him. Let's say, and feel
like I kill people. I gotta confession. I'm just playing
out a scenario here. He goes to this priest and says,
I blew up a train and I don't want to
go to hell. So can you ebsolve me? And he
said what train? Or can you say? You know? So
(23:12):
from the point of view of the person going into confession,
this priest is going to exolve me from my sins
uh and and allow me to go to heaven and
avoid eternal hell fire. And he's thinking, this guy is
going to give me intelligence I could bring to the Germans.
(23:32):
We don't know what was going on in his mind,
but his behavior is is shocking. It was through these
base methods that Alesh found the neugget of information he
was looking for. Forgive me, my son, But I feel
(23:59):
ass though I have not done enough in this war.
If there were a way to get involved, what would
you suggest. Do you know a doctor named Jean who
say I do not he is helpful to the resistance.
We have just lost the man to the Nazis, who
(24:19):
acted there's a girl of salts and we'll say it
needs another m. But the job would require travel. M
Where can I find this? Who say doctor Jean we
(24:41):
say was a French gynecologist would become a major anchor
point for the French resistance since the German occupation. We
say it was at the center of the web, with
connections to allies, spies, refugees and safe houses. While he
was recognized by the resistance and British and intelligence, he
didn't have an official title. He believed he could do
(25:04):
more as a citizen. To Robert Alesh, doctor Hussey had
the potential to be a gold mine of information and
could undoubtedly lead him to the location and identity of
his target. The limping Lady Lesh quickly informed Klaus Barbie
of doctor Roussey and told the Gestapo they'd already captured
(25:24):
the doctor's career unknowingly in a previous raid. If they
could discover which of their prisoners was this courier, they
could use the information against Dr Hussay and infiltrate the resistance.
The Gestapo went to work combing through arrest files and
interrogating their captives until they found the spy. Through this prisoner,
(25:45):
they were able to learn code words that would give
the Nazis access to doctor Hussay, but they failed to
retrieve any information on the limping. Lady Lesh asked the
prisoner to write a letter to Roussay telling him a
replacement courier that he could trust would contact him. Soon
(26:07):
after the break Robert Alsh executes his opening move. So
if you're part of the resistance, hey, you want to
keep it quiet. That's Ludivin Brock again talking about the
risks of joining the French resistance. If you get find out,
(26:31):
you will get arrested, in turn put into a prison
and possibly eventually deported. They try to torture confessions out
of many people, and you can be executed. But they
also they also do retaliations. When a German officer is murdered,
there will be retaliation. So the stakes are very very high,
(26:52):
and they get even higher by any hint at resistance
is shut down. You have a famous case called where
everyone gets killed in the village and the village gets
burnt down and entirely destroyed out of retaliation for resistance acts.
The Gestapo gave a Lesh microfilm of old German plans,
(27:13):
knowing that the courier was expected to deliver new information
to the resistance, but they also had to give him
some small amount of fresh intel too, knowing this would
ensure Alesh could develop a relationship with the enemy. If
Alesh was successful and both Dr Russy and the Limping
Lady were arrested, Klaus Barbie would come to Leone himself
(27:36):
and set up operations. Lesh saw this only in selfish
terms and what this could mean for his own career,
so he set out again, adopting the persona of father.
ACoM we it's father, I can have you treated the
(28:02):
cats on the roofles. She had arrived at doctor who
says home and immediately engaged the man in code. Yes,
but they won't take Brandy coming, my friend. You have
the package from Paris. Yes, it's micro film. You're late.
(28:23):
The gush stop stopped me in the cafe where I
was waiting, but I felt I couldn't move. They would
search me. He all knew what this. Hoping to get better,
we need all the help we can get. I was
worried about it, enne he thought he had been arrested.
His letter was a comfort. Yes, I believe he's become
(28:46):
ill ill. He didn't say anything about that. Yes, but
would he You know, Etienne, that's true, that's true. Well,
I I hope he imp moves. Is there anything you
want me to take back to Bury? No, but Marie
(29:07):
may Marie, Yeah, I'll give you the address, same code
to enter. She'll be easy to spot. She has a
bit of a limp. A limp. She'll be the one
to pay you as well. Huh. And so unless received
(29:28):
his first heart evidence of the existence of the limping Lady.
And with that, Robert Alesh and Virginia Hall began a
game of cat and mouse coming up this season on
Good Assassins, you're offering me a post. I don't exactly
(29:48):
have an elegant hiring history with intelligence agencies. Deep your
ends are cutbird. The best Nazi is a dead Nazi.
Let's win the war first, shall I. You'll be very
busy both aiding our men and gathering intel from the Nazis.
(30:10):
She has a limp. Yeah, interesting indeed, in limp. If
you have any questions for us about Good Assassins, if
you're curious about some aspect of Virginia hall story, or
(30:33):
have any comments on the podcast. We'd love to hear
from you. Please email us at good Assassins at diversion
audio dot com. Make sure you spell assassins correctly again,
that's good Assassins at diversion Audio dot com. We'll try
to answer your questions on a future episode. Find us
on Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram at diversion pods. Good Assassins
(30:56):
is a production of Diversion Audio in association with I
Heart Podcasts. This season is hosted by Steven Talti and
written by Cede Carpenter, Produced and directed by Kevin Thompson
for Real Jet Packs Productions. Story editing by Jacob Bronstein,
with editorial direction from Scott Waxman, additional research and reporting
(31:18):
by Sophie McNulty. Theme music by Tyler Cash featuring the
voices of mikhaela Is Caerdo, Raphael cork Kill, Lenna Klingeman,
John Perks, Andrew polk or Lock, Cassidy Manoel Falciano, Sean Gormley,
Matthew Amant, and Steve Rautman. Sound design, mixing and mastering
(31:38):
by Paul Goodrich, Sound editing by Justin Kilpatrick. Executive producers
Jacob Bronstein, Mark Francis and Scott Waxman for diversion audio,
(32:01):
see SIM for diversion audio.
Diversion audio. A note this episode contains descriptions of violence
and torture that may be disturbing for some audiences. Please
take care in listening. This series is based on historical
characters and real events. Some dialogue has been imagined for
(00:29):
dramatic purposes when no primary source material is available. Give
them a father account had heard the words a thousand
times for giving me fai for I have sinned. It
(00:54):
has been since my last confession. As the priest listened,
he considered the turns his life had taken that led
him to this moment. He joined the clergy a few
years earlier with a call to serve the people. But now,
as he sat outside an isolated prison cell near Paris,
(01:15):
meeting with anonymous prisoners, he wasn't listening for sins. He
was listening for secrets. The prisoner continued listing his personal failings,
a scandalous affair of broken marriage, dishonesty, lustful thoughts. Believing
the Germans would execute him in a few months, he
bared his soul to the priest in hopes of spiritual redemption.
(01:39):
But Father Accom wasn't interested in saving this man's soul.
You have a pattern of disloyalty, my son? Have you
also been disloyal to Germany? The man in the cell
spit at the priest's feet, ranting and raving against the
(01:59):
knots the occupation. Father Accolm listened patiently. After the prisoner
had worn himself out, A calm press forward, frightening the
man with ghost stories about the hell that awaited him
if he didn't come clean. Unburden yourself with the truth
and save your soul. How have you been disloyal to Germany?
(02:22):
My son? Then the prisoner cracked says a plan here,
it's a prison to help Piere to Bonco escape and
tell me who is involved in this plan. Finally, the
(02:47):
man who went by father account had found the secret
he was after. It was in. Just a few months earlier,
the Nazis had captured British spy Pierre de van cour Vomcorps,
was a top agent with Britain's Special Operations Executive or
(03:07):
s OE. He was responsible for leading a network of
French resistors and British agents in the Nazi occupied regions
of France, and his capture was considered a major victory
for German secret intelligence. He has since become the celebrity
inmate in the prison. The Gestapo had known vom Cour's
(03:29):
arrest would light up the resistance. He was a man
full of secrets and if the Brits didn't rescue him quickly,
years of British strategy would become known to the Germans
and they would have to start from scratch. The Nazis
had difficulty persuading the prisoners to give up any information
they had, and so they opted for a more emotional approach.
(03:52):
They informed them of their execution dates and sent in
Father Akong to give them one final shot at redemption.
One of them took the babe, where are you going?
I have not start since that, the priest promptly notified
(04:21):
his Nazi superiors of the escape plan. The prisoners involved
were quickly executed. Bomb Corps was moved to solitary confinement
and then transferred to a concentration camp by the end
of the year. The priests expected some kind of promotion
for his hard work. He'd been interrogating prisoners for weeks. Instead,
(04:42):
the s S would broadcast a different message. Return them immediately.
You'll have a new target. I'm Steven Talty and from diversion.
(05:03):
This is good Assassin's Season two. Being killed would be
the easy part. Being tortured would be the hard part.
Our intel suggests she is behind many of the prison
bricks all over the country. She is dangerous, so sabotage
plus a little espionage paramilitary operations make things blow up.
(05:27):
The message for Captain Bobby and I believe I have
found the mist of the Limping Lady. Episode three, The Priest.
The VS government begins to intensify it's exclusionary policies over
(05:52):
the years and its repression of resists, of Communists, of Jews, etcetera.
That's Dr Ludavine Brock from previous episodes, Jesus Scholar of
World War two French history from the University of Westminster.
At the start of the war, there were about three
hundred thousand Jews living in France. Once Nazis occupied the country,
(06:14):
the government began collecting data like addresses and names of
the Jews currently living there. In the summer of nineteen
forty two, using these lists, the French police began rounding
up Jews across the country. In total, about seventy six
thousand get deported between ninety ninety four. More than half
(06:34):
of those get deported. In that single summer of nineteen
forty two, you have thousands of Jews, of Jewish Men,
women and children who are in turned into this feldive,
who are taken from their homes, drive from their homes
and brought to this feldive and then transferred to a camp.
Now this is a very visible process. It's also very
clear that it's the French police. They need the alliance
(06:57):
of the French police in order to carry out this crime.
This very public atrocity set off widespread alarm and outrage,
and as Dr Brock adds, not only does the French
police help with the mass roundup of over ten thousand
Jews in July, but it also transports Jews who were
(07:18):
interned into camps in the south of France win the
Free Zone. It transfers them to draw which is also
known as the Entertamber, to Auschwitz, which is the biggest
interman camp for for Jews in France at the time,
and it basically hands over its foreign Jews to the Germans.
(07:39):
The romantic city of Paris was stained with blood and violence.
In addition, living conditions had deteriorated in the years since
the Germans invaded. In food was scarce, local transit uprooted,
the economy tarnished, and violence all too common. And there
were the red was to deal with. Hidden around the country,
(08:03):
British and French agents telegraphs secret German plots back to
the UK, hoping to give the English a much needed
edge against Hitler's forces. One of the Nazi operatives tasked
(08:25):
with uncovering the underground spine networks was Robert Alesh, a
Luxembourger priest better known in France by his alias father
Robert account. At the start of the war, he'd actually
aligned himself first with the French and worked hiding immigrant
Jews from the Germans in his parish. He was never
named an official with any particular agency, but Robert Alesh
(08:49):
became instrumental in the spy networks, connecting refugees and other
agents to safe houses throughout the country. But when the
Nazis took over France, they captured Alesh and made him
a simple offer become a double agent or be sent
to the camps. He didn't hesitate and immediately began turning
(09:09):
over what he knew to the s S. The subsequent
rates arrests and executions that Alesha's deadly work made possible,
said British intelligence back months. In an effort to maintain
some anonymity while he worked in the field, Alesha began
(09:32):
going by a cone. So as an intelligence officer, I
tell people, when I did the work, I never was comfortable.
I always had a level of discomfort. That's Chris Costa,
the executive director of the International Spy Museum. He worked
(09:55):
as an intelligence officer for twenty five years. I just
couldn't afford to be overconfident. So the only time I
could rest is when I was home, I was recovered
and the operation was successful or complete. But even then,
even to this day, I reflect back and I don't
(10:16):
know how many surveillance I might have missed somewhere along
the way. And I don't know if subsequently some of
our sources weren't compromised years later, or people that I
met with and trained. I don't know if many of
the my Iraqi counterparts are alive or dead. I can
(10:38):
say the same thing for many of my Afghan partners
that I worked with or I trained, And I'd be
lying to you if I said I wasn't scared. There's
no sense of false bravado. There are times where it's
just scary. That's Karen Shafer, another former intelligence operative, reflecting
on the taxing nature of spy work when you're out
(11:01):
on the streets, I mean it is a solitary job
more often than not. I mean, yes, you can work
with others, you might have joint operations, but generally speaking,
it's a solitary life. It necessarily takes its toll on
you physically, emotionally, mentally. Absolutely, there's no question that it does.
(11:25):
I would say for most of us, it's offset by
the incredible sense of mission, the incredible sense of contribution. Alesh,
on the other hand, didn't have that same sense of mission,
that sense of duty. He was doing this because he
gave in. He was fully collaborating with the Nazis. Alesia's
(11:47):
time as a priest served him well in his search
for Jews and Allied spies. He was a relatively handsome
man n and considered approachable and friendly. He would attempt
to establish rapport with those he interrogated, and was soon
favored by the s S as a top hunter. After
(12:08):
uncovering the plot to break Pierre de von Corps out
of prison, he embarked de Jean France, where he had
learned the details of his next mission from his Nazi handlers.
It was in Dijon where Lesh first met. And there's
really no other way to put this. One of the
most evil men in history, the head of the local Gestapo,
(12:28):
Klaus Barbie. I'll introduce you to Barbie after the break.
Cruis Barbie was the head of the Gestapo in leon In.
(12:50):
So by this point the situation in France is pretty bad,
is quite tense. That's Ludivin Brock again, the French World
War Two historian. His mission is to suppress resistors and Jews.
That's what he's supposed to do, and that's exactly what
he's going to carry out. I think he probably causes
the deportation, slash death of over ten tho people, maybe
(13:12):
almost people. Barbie was so ferocious he earned the nickname
the Butcher of Theone. In one particularly galling case, Barbie
discovered and deported fifty children between the ages of five
and twelve who are hiding out in an orphanage. The
captured children were sent to their deaths at Auschwitz. In
(13:34):
the following clip from our interview with Ms. Brock, she
makes an interesting and horrific point about Klaus Barbie, his
Nazi police force and their quote zeal for their genocidal work.
It's interesting that the word zell comes up a lot
in the archives. He's going to carry out his mission of,
you know, suppressing Jews and resistance groups with great zell
(13:59):
and if if they act with cell it's more problematic,
you know, if you're not just following orders. Hello, Captain
Bobby Aleft, just good to finally meet you, High hit La,
high hit ler. I have been reading reports. M hm.
(14:25):
Yes you've been the kind of busines this country needs mine. Friends,
It's a forwarding job and to impress, Sir gustapo Ah,
but I would give for an army of men with
your attitude. We have so many bouncing about in the
streets playing police, no real respect. They salute straight and
(14:48):
enjoys the work. But in you they see a pride.
This is what I'm looking for. Thank you, sir. Are
you familiar? This's the city of Lyon here alesh of
would you prefer abbey either title? Sir? And yes I'm familiar.
(15:10):
Have you heard of this woman? This they call has
a limping lady? No, I haven't do is this your
Heidenstein's talk about her. She struts all over town with
an injured lake, a major asset to the resistance. Our
(15:32):
intel suggests she is behind many of the prison bricks
all over the country. She is dangerous m hm English French.
We believe she is Canadian, and that is the extent
of what we know. But she has become an effective
replacement for vombe care and we cannot have another of
(15:54):
him running around. I would like you to go to
Leon and sniff her out, use any method you deem necessary.
I found that engaging in good conversation is often enough
if there's more of work to be done in lyon
beyond this woman. I don't want to leave the impression
(16:15):
we are animals. Animals, yes, so many of our men
are animals. Animals are mindless. They attack to eat, to
fill their bellies, and then they said, I'm away to
find more. You and I we are not beasts. We
(16:39):
are philosophers, thinkers with responsibilities the exterminate these Jewish rats
for the good of others, for our children. Never let
yourself falter in madness or become a machine. These hands
of your skill, but only because it is our duty. ALESH.
(17:01):
They belonged to a man, never an animal. Now go
kills at one. As Alash made his way into Leone
by train, he thought about what he knew of Klaus
Barbie and his methods of interrogation. He never witnessed them himself,
(17:25):
but they become infamous. I should note for you here's
where I tell you a bit about tactics that can
only be described as torture. So take care in listening.
Rumors abounded that an interrogation from Klaus Barbie meant the
skin on your hands would be peeled off, starting at
the fingertips, and then doused with scalding hot water. There
(17:49):
are reports Barbie would hang his subjects on meat hooks
inserted through their shoulder blades and dumped them into ice
buckets to keep them conscious during questioning. He had actually
made handcuffs with inward facing spikes that would crank into
the wrist with the turn of the key. Every method
was effective. The Allegh believed the horrifying legend of Klaus
(18:11):
Barbie had already gotten around France. Everyone he encountered would
have their guard up. An alleghed like to work in
a different way. Now in Leone, Alesha had to figure
(18:38):
out his first move. He had burned through most of
his old resistance contacts two years earlier, so you'd have
to start from scratch. He'd have to put a lot
of miles into actual footwork and observe the people around him.
He realized quickly he couldn't approach people as an intimidating Nazi.
He had to play the part of the kind priest.
(19:01):
At the time, the Catholic Church in France officially supported
the new Fishy regime. There was a kind of sense
that authoritarian regimes, the top down authority, are interested in
working with the Catholic Church. That's Thomas Cassellman, a professor
emeritus at Notre Dame University who specializes in French religious history.
(19:26):
In the summer of nineteen forty, after Paton took power,
the leaders of the Catholic Church welcomed the new authoritarian
government with seemingly open arms. So there is a longstanding
hostility between republican regimes in France and the Catholic Church,
going back to the French Revolution and the Third Republic,
(19:47):
which began in eighteen seventy and lasted to nineteen forty.
They officially separated Church and state. So if you're a
bishop or a priest in nineteen forty and the rep
public is collapsing, you're not gonna feel bad about that,
and you might even embrace as in fact, the French
(20:08):
religious leadership did an alternative regime. Their their concern is
to protect their own interests, and leaders of the church
reaped the benefits. So in the early years of the
VC regime, especially Catholics were appointed to high positions for
the first time in the Third Republic, and so the
(20:30):
regime is reaching out to bring Catholics in and they
are happy to come on board. Although the official line
of the Catholic Church was one of support, dissent still endured.
Resistance to the regime from inside the Catholic Church grows
in the forties, but it grows from the bottom up
(20:52):
and not from the top down. One of the precipitating
events was the government roundup of Jews in the summer
of nineteen party two. The regime doesn't defend its Jewish citizens,
and that is a principle of factor, as I have
said already, for the creation of both general resistance but
(21:13):
also Catholic Resisians in particular, it is important to note However,
the top leaders of the Catholic Church remained steadfast, at
least publicly, in their support of the Vichy regime. Active
resistors remained a small minority. Alessious background is a man
of God pointed him in the direction of parishes where
(21:36):
he offered himself as a substitute priest and an additional
hand in services. Once he had access to a confessional booth,
he began to work the way he had with the prisoners,
balancing empathy and understanding with well chosen moments for guilt
and pressure. Oh my god, that's one of the worst
(22:00):
things a Catholic priest can do. In our interview with Casselman,
we explained Alesia's methods for uncovering resistance secrets because Elman
walked us through the gravity of what Alesha was doing,
the sacred code he was violating in a confessionals absolutely
between you and your confession. Your confessor can't tell anybody anything, superiors, nothing,
(22:26):
It's a sacred bond linking the confessor with his confess e.
Confession is what guarantees Catholics who are sentners. It is
their get out of jail card I means, it's what
allows them to think I'm not going to hell. And
so somebody who's committed a murder blown up, sabotaged a
(22:51):
train of Germans and killed him. Let's say, and feel
like I kill people. I gotta confession. I'm just playing
out a scenario here. He goes to this priest and says,
I blew up a train and I don't want to
go to hell. So can you ebsolve me? And he
said what train? Or can you say? You know? So
(23:12):
from the point of view of the person going into confession,
this priest is going to exolve me from my sins
uh and and allow me to go to heaven and
avoid eternal hell fire. And he's thinking, this guy is
going to give me intelligence I could bring to the Germans.
(23:32):
We don't know what was going on in his mind,
but his behavior is is shocking. It was through these
base methods that Alesh found the neugget of information he
was looking for. Forgive me, my son, But I feel
(23:59):
ass though I have not done enough in this war.
If there were a way to get involved, what would
you suggest. Do you know a doctor named Jean who
say I do not he is helpful to the resistance.
We have just lost the man to the Nazis, who
(24:19):
acted there's a girl of salts and we'll say it
needs another m. But the job would require travel. M
Where can I find this? Who say doctor Jean we
(24:41):
say was a French gynecologist would become a major anchor
point for the French resistance since the German occupation. We
say it was at the center of the web, with
connections to allies, spies, refugees and safe houses. While he
was recognized by the resistance and British and intelligence, he
didn't have an official title. He believed he could do
(25:04):
more as a citizen. To Robert Alesh, doctor Hussey had
the potential to be a gold mine of information and
could undoubtedly lead him to the location and identity of
his target. The limping Lady Lesh quickly informed Klaus Barbie
of doctor Roussey and told the Gestapo they'd already captured
(25:24):
the doctor's career unknowingly in a previous raid. If they
could discover which of their prisoners was this courier, they
could use the information against Dr Hussay and infiltrate the resistance.
The Gestapo went to work combing through arrest files and
interrogating their captives until they found the spy. Through this prisoner,
(25:45):
they were able to learn code words that would give
the Nazis access to doctor Hussay, but they failed to
retrieve any information on the limping. Lady Lesh asked the
prisoner to write a letter to Roussay telling him a
replacement courier that he could trust would contact him. Soon
(26:07):
after the break Robert Alsh executes his opening move. So
if you're part of the resistance, hey, you want to
keep it quiet. That's Ludivin Brock again talking about the
risks of joining the French resistance. If you get find out,
(26:31):
you will get arrested, in turn put into a prison
and possibly eventually deported. They try to torture confessions out
of many people, and you can be executed. But they
also they also do retaliations. When a German officer is murdered,
there will be retaliation. So the stakes are very very high,
(26:52):
and they get even higher by any hint at resistance
is shut down. You have a famous case called where
everyone gets killed in the village and the village gets
burnt down and entirely destroyed out of retaliation for resistance acts.
The Gestapo gave a Lesh microfilm of old German plans,
(27:13):
knowing that the courier was expected to deliver new information
to the resistance, but they also had to give him
some small amount of fresh intel too, knowing this would
ensure Alesh could develop a relationship with the enemy. If
Alesh was successful and both Dr Russy and the Limping
Lady were arrested, Klaus Barbie would come to Leone himself
(27:36):
and set up operations. Lesh saw this only in selfish
terms and what this could mean for his own career,
so he set out again, adopting the persona of father.
ACoM we it's father, I can have you treated the
(28:02):
cats on the roofles. She had arrived at doctor who
says home and immediately engaged the man in code. Yes,
but they won't take Brandy coming, my friend. You have
the package from Paris. Yes, it's micro film. You're late.
(28:23):
The gush stop stopped me in the cafe where I
was waiting, but I felt I couldn't move. They would
search me. He all knew what this. Hoping to get better,
we need all the help we can get. I was
worried about it, enne he thought he had been arrested.
His letter was a comfort. Yes, I believe he's become
(28:46):
ill ill. He didn't say anything about that. Yes, but
would he You know, Etienne, that's true, that's true. Well,
I I hope he imp moves. Is there anything you
want me to take back to Bury? No, but Marie
(29:07):
may Marie, Yeah, I'll give you the address, same code
to enter. She'll be easy to spot. She has a
bit of a limp. A limp. She'll be the one
to pay you as well. Huh. And so unless received
(29:28):
his first heart evidence of the existence of the limping Lady.
And with that, Robert Alesh and Virginia Hall began a
game of cat and mouse coming up this season on
Good Assassins, you're offering me a post. I don't exactly
(29:48):
have an elegant hiring history with intelligence agencies. Deep your
ends are cutbird. The best Nazi is a dead Nazi.
Let's win the war first, shall I. You'll be very
busy both aiding our men and gathering intel from the Nazis.
(30:10):
She has a limp. Yeah, interesting indeed, in limp. If
you have any questions for us about Good Assassins, if
you're curious about some aspect of Virginia hall story, or
(30:33):
have any comments on the podcast. We'd love to hear
from you. Please email us at good Assassins at diversion
audio dot com. Make sure you spell assassins correctly again,
that's good Assassins at diversion Audio dot com. We'll try
to answer your questions on a future episode. Find us
on Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram at diversion pods. Good Assassins
(30:56):
is a production of Diversion Audio in association with I
Heart Podcasts. This season is hosted by Steven Talti and
written by Cede Carpenter, Produced and directed by Kevin Thompson
for Real Jet Packs Productions. Story editing by Jacob Bronstein,
with editorial direction from Scott Waxman, additional research and reporting
(31:18):
by Sophie McNulty. Theme music by Tyler Cash featuring the
voices of mikhaela Is Caerdo, Raphael cork Kill, Lenna Klingeman,
John Perks, Andrew polk or Lock, Cassidy Manoel Falciano, Sean Gormley,
Matthew Amant, and Steve Rautman. Sound design, mixing and mastering
(31:38):
by Paul Goodrich, Sound editing by Justin Kilpatrick. Executive producers
Jacob Bronstein, Mark Francis and Scott Waxman for diversion audio,
(32:01):
see SIM for diversion audio.
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