February 17, 2022 • 53 mins
On the season two premiere of Good Friend, Jamie leans in for a conversation with her friend Demi Moore. They discuss how small gestures can have a large impact in a friendship, the difficulty of keeping in touch with friends when you finish a movie project and importance of female friendships.
Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
If there's something logative. I'm a good friend. Hi everybody,
it's Jamie Lee Curtis and you're listening to the Good
Friend Podcast, presented to you by I Heart Radio. It's
a podcast about friendship. We talk about everything, We cry,
(00:24):
we laugh, we think about what it really means to
be a good friend. And I have conversations with some
of my best friends, some people I've never met, and
sort of everything in between. So I hope by the
end of it that you have a really good sense
(00:47):
of what friendship means to me and the people that
I consider friends. And I hope you can take those
same ideas into your own friendship groups, and I hope
you enjoy it. I don't know. I am a good friend.
(01:07):
Hi everybody, it's UM, the Good Friend podcast where we
discuss friendship, and I am really excited today. I've been
looking forward to it, UM to talk to my friend,
to me more UM, because we've been friends for thirty
(01:29):
plus years, but yet it's only recently that we have
leaned into it in a way, and in that what
comes from it, which I think is interesting and very
unique to us, is that we had a peripheral understanding
of each other we had a mutual admiration society where
(01:55):
I need to tell my listener this. Um, I think
we have one. I like to at least say we
have one listener. Um. I just think you know. I'm
trying to be grounded and not be grandiose, so I
do believe we have a listener. Um. I will tell
you something that happened when I first made my first
(02:15):
book for children, which was a surprise to me. It
was called When I was a Little a four year
old memoir of her youth. It was a book for children.
It was produced, and the first book signing I ever
did was at a store called Children's Book World on
Pico Boulevard. And this was pre Internet, pre social media,
(02:39):
pre all of us becoming our own pr people, pre
us selling, selling, selling, selling, selling everything ourselves. And I
remember I did very little promotion. I think I was
working at the time and I couldn't do a big promotion.
And all I remember is sitting down to read and
(02:59):
then in some and when I looked up to me,
Moore was there with I think you're I think it
was only rumor, right, definitely rumor. Maybe Scout Scout was
born in Yeah, I think it was before then, Yeah,
I think it was before then. Um, And you know
it's so interesting, is my you know, perspective or perception
(03:23):
was of such awe. The book was so moving to me,
and I was just really enamored that you had done this.
Also the personal story that you were telling, and just
how beautiful it was that you I don't know, we're
just openly sharing, but you had found this context to
(03:47):
bring it forward, and I think I was really intimidated. Well,
we'll discuss that. I am letting you know that even
though we were not close friends, we were acquaintances, we
had things in common. We will kind of unpack that
a little bit here today to kind of figure out
(04:08):
how we kind of circled each other a little bit.
But I will tell you in that moment, for you
to be sitting there a cross legged on the ground
with your daughter looking up as I was doing my
first ever book signing slash reading in the bookstore that
(04:29):
I used to shop for my daughter's books from when
she was born, was so moving to me. And your
level of support in that moment was crucial, particularly because
we weren't close friends. It wasn't like we were besties
and you'd like, of course I'm going to be you
know what I mean, Like we really hadn't I didn't
(04:51):
even know you knew I had made a book. I
just I remember that moment in the grace that you
um brought and the moment was very moving to me,
so much to me to know that, because you know,
in life, I really feel like we have these encounters
(05:13):
where someone impacts us, but the other person may not
have any clue or really know the depth of the
impact that that small action may have had. It's always
fascinating to me, like I have one of those not
too like go too far off track, but go wherever
(05:34):
you want to go. This is a we are free
and Easy podcast. It can go wherever it goes well.
So this was just about impact because the director Gary Marshall,
who was a big part of Happy Days, UM and
I was a teenager living in West Hollywood and I
was invited to go see a taping of it at
(05:57):
Paramount Studios, and the person who had invited me knew
one of the actors, and so there was a bit
of a little bit more of a connection than just
the general audience. Anyway, after the show, we were speaking
and I was introduced to Gary Marshall, and I think
(06:20):
I was a fairly high energy person. I still am.
And I remember Gary Marshall turning to me and saying,
if you could harness that energy, you could really do
something with it. Hm. And for whatever reason I understood
what that meant. Years later I mentioned it to him,
(06:42):
and of course he didn't remember it at all, And
yet the profound impact that it had on me and
on how I from that moment on perceived life and
the importance of channeling my energy, yeah, it was it
for ever changed in a moment. So but that's a
(07:04):
really interesting thread to unravel our sweater because obviously, as friends,
we are very intentional. We we suit up and show up.
If it's a birthday, we want to make sure that
that person feels our presence, our vision of them, that
(07:24):
we see them, that we hear them, that we have
found the perfect gifting to mark that occasion. The celebrations
that take place around people's accomplishments, whatever it is, become ritualized,
they become uh you know, commercialized, they become uh more realized,
(07:50):
the more exactly, And there's something so interesting to me
about random moments of sight of impact that you just
described that I described to you about you sitting there
at the on the ground at this book thing. You weren't.
(08:12):
You weren't trying to say to me anything. But I
see you, I hear you. I appreciate you in that moment,
and I'm proud of you in that moment. I'm here
and I was all of those things that you just said.
I wasn't more. But you see, you didn't call me
(08:34):
for a week before going, hey, it's to me, um.
I was thinking coming your book signing. It's so great
that you're doing it. And afterwards you didn't try to
connect back to it. You let the moment be the moment.
It didn't need articulation, It didn't need to be stretched
(08:54):
and pulled and reshaped into something. It was a moment
of connection and and bearing witness. And then it was over.
And I have never forgotten it. And as you said,
you've never forgotten. With Gary Marshall, he probably forgot that.
(09:16):
He ever said to you, you know, if you could
harness it, didn't even never remember meeting me. That's how
that's how different are our experiences can be of the
same event. Now with this event, truly, I remember just
being in awe that you had written a book, and
(09:38):
I remember asking you about the person who did um
the illustration, and God, I can keep just keep saying it,
and all of how it all came together. And believe me,
when that book showed up in an envelope at my house,
after all of the drawings have been submitted, all of
(10:00):
the you know, color version of those drawings had been
stapled together in what they called an f N G
fold and gather, and you get sent that and then
you get sent to proof all of it. When that
hard back book arrived in an envelope at my house
and I opened that, I had the exact same feeling
(10:24):
you did, which is, how did this happen? How is
this here? I don't understand it. It is perfect in
its perfection, and apparently I had something to do with it,
but I didn't even do you know what I mean?
(10:44):
That this was an experience for you that almost was
like a channeled experience in the sense of story that
came through and from the outside it seemed like the
most natural that it happened with such grace and ease,
and like it's something that you should have always been doing.
There's something I'm a good friend. We'll be right back
(11:09):
with more good friend after this quick break, so stick around, don't.
I'm a good friend. Let's talk about channeling, because I
think we're in an industry where the creative processs. If
(11:32):
you've ever if my listener and you have never read
Marilyn Monroe's last interview about her process about trying to be,
you know, to be in the movie business, and she
talks about the art form of being an actor, and
yet it is scheduled, like this minute, scheduled thing where
(12:00):
it's like at ten a m you will create art.
And she talks about like what if you're not feeling
it like it's art, it's it's it's reaction, it's and
But that's part of the discipline. No, without question, it's
(12:21):
part of the discipline. But there is something that happens
in our lives where the channel does open, where the
muse hits you. Where I had never thought I was
going to write a book, the last thing in the
world I thought I would do his write books because
I could barely get through his school. So the idea
that a book popped into my head in the way
(12:44):
it did with Annie making a funny statement and me
reacting to it blah blah blah. To that point, Elizabeth
Gilbert did um ted talk if you haven't seen it,
And part of what she talks about is how success.
So her first book wasn't how this energy coming towards
her like, oh, you know you're gonna be able to
(13:06):
top that? And this pressure that can come in um,
that can almost be debilitating. And for some writers, like Harperly,
she never really wrote another novel again. Um. But one
of the things Elizabeth Gilbert talks about is that in
our current time, we have started to refer to people
(13:29):
as being a genius versus how it used to be
referred to as having a genius. And that meant that
it popped in. Sometimes it was there and sometimes it wasn't.
And you know, and those are those real transcendent moments
that really do exists beyond you know, space and time.
(13:57):
And I think, um, you talked about that when you
wrote the foreword to Mark Neppo's book, that it just
like float in and uh. And I really love that
idea of having a genius because it takes the pressure
off of and and it and it embraces our humanity
(14:22):
are imperfection that it's not that. Sometimes that the genius
is there and you need to stop what you're doing
and go write it down or because it'll it's fleeting.
So sometimes your genius, your little genius, shows up, and
sometimes he doesn't at ten am. Sometimes right right right right,
(14:44):
Oh wow, I need to now watch that. And and
that is how you know, in relation to you showing
up for me as a friend an acquaintance sitting there
honoring that moment, I think friends have a way of
(15:04):
sort of protecting that spirit in you. So I'm interested
in your early friendships if you could just explain to
my listener a little bit about your early life and
how did you connect in friendship to people? Did you
such an interesting area to explore for me, because you know,
(15:30):
there's always the pluses and minuses. I did have some
really harsh UM experiences growing up, UM. One of them
being that one of the elements UM is that we
moved so much. I was in never less than two
schools a year, and which made me extremely adaptable. I
(15:54):
was a very quick study UM my ability to get
then assessed know who was who, how things are operating,
who was wielding power? You know, like just how a
system worked like was almost like instantaneous UM, and it
allowed me to really appreciate whatever was there while it
(16:18):
was there, and knowing that, you know, don't get too
attached because you're going to be moving on soon. And
the downside of that was my adapting made me always
looking externally to find my place. How can I assimilate,
(16:42):
how can I fit in? And so knowing what I liked,
what I didn't like, what I was really interested in
was was definitely UM filtered through pleasing and fitting in,
and the other part of it that was I think
has been a challenge and an opportunity is not being attached.
(17:07):
Not getting too attached also doesn't lend itself to knowing
how to nurture friendships. It doesn't know how to follow
up and call. It doesn't know UH like I didn't
have in my UM, you know, tool shed how you
build long term friendships. Because for me, it was great
(17:30):
while I was there, and I never held anything negative.
If I were to run into someone that I knew again,
that would be amazing. I just never expected it. And
I think on the other side of that, I think
I may have hurt people's feelings without ever knowing it.
Because I just didn't know how two invest in that way. Interesting,
(17:58):
I'm very similar out of sight, out of mind, and
I have a lot of tools to kind of keep
me very focused. I'm, as you know, incredibly sort of.
It's the way my brain works, which is why if
you ever need somebody to go through and help you
(18:18):
let go of items, I'm your girl, because I just
have that internal filing system that I've always had. I've
had that since hyper vigilance. Though it is well from
that end of in a brain that operates logically, which
mine does as well. So with that though, I am
(18:38):
able to pivot. And we are both professional actors in
a field that demands an immersion into a group of people,
the exact same description of the hierarchy the weakness. Who
is the person to go to, who is the person
to not go to? Who can you trust? Who do
(19:01):
you have to be light and polite with who? And
I think that skill has served us both very well
as actors, because that's what happens to the listener. We
drop into a group of a hundred plus people, let's
say a hundred fifty people every time, and you make alliances.
(19:22):
It's very much like the survivor show where you know,
you have these teams and you have alliances and you
you and then it's over and occasionally and occasionally you
walk away with one friend, maybe two, but even one
(19:43):
that that you really stay close with. But it's you know,
it is it's like many marriages, very much so. And
for me, I was able to pivot and then go
into the next thing. And I actually haven't made that
many friends. Even though on the last day of work
(20:06):
you're weeping, You feel incredibly bonded with a group of people.
There are professions of lifelong friendship and we will know
each other for the rest of our lives kind of thing.
And then my secret now is for the listener, there
is a thing called a wrap party, which is at
(20:26):
the end of a movie or end of a TV
show or end of a creative work. You rap. You
know that's a rap. You've heard that phrase, so that's
a rap. Means now it's finished. And there is a
rap party that happens where often people get drunk um
and of course all of the withheld feelings people genuinely
(20:50):
develop in a close intense creative experience sometimes come out
and gets a little missy. Often people who have been
the single people in your life. You don't know them
as family people. All of a sudden they show up
with their wives, sometimes their kids, and you're like, okay, wow,
(21:10):
I had no idea, but there's always that moment where
you have to leave. And my secret and anybody who
if a listener has tuned in, who has worked with
me on a movie, you will be nodding your head.
I always at some point I don't stay long. I
(21:31):
show up usually smile, say hi to many people's families,
and then I go, oh, you know, I left something
in my car. I'll be right back, and I go
because I'm like a French exit. Oh is that what
it's called. Yeah, I mean there's a few French exit
Irish exit, but why are they only in Europe? Why
(21:51):
can't they be like a Tulsa exit. That's all I've
ever heard, is like where somebody just you don't even
say anything, you just dip away. Well, but that was
my way of cutting it off, to stop that energy
flow and be able to be not actually having to
say it's done, it's like and and without having to
(22:15):
lie and in that way of saying I'm so it
was so great. It was so fun. I'm gonna miss
you and we'll talk soon. I'm never going to talk
to you again, is the truth. The nine nine nine
percent of the time. I am not going to talk
to anybody again that I've worked with, but I member
them if you do end up having somebody on the crew.
(22:38):
So here's a great example. Um. Weirdly enough, the cinematographers
guilt gave me, uh sort of life achievement toward I'm
at that age now you're a way younger than Oh no,
not much. I am at that age now my hair
is gray, and they're like, shall be dead soon, we
(22:58):
gotta do it now. And I went and had a
wonderful evening and uh, somebody came over to my table
and said, hey, um, Dave, have these have these pictures
from when they worked with you on blah blah blah.
And no it wasn't Dave, Sorry, it was a Dolly
Grip came with these pictures. And then on the panel,
(23:23):
one of the honorees was a man that I went
down the Amazon with in a canoe for the Guinness
Book of World Records. And I was like, Dave, and
it was as if we had just gotten out of
the boat, I went and found him, and that's the
level of connection. It was immediate. It was as close
(23:48):
as we were when spending three weeks together in the Amazon.
And I haven't really seen them since. So in those moments,
I think, when you don't old expectation or define the
value of the relationship except for embracing it just as
(24:09):
it is, I feel like I am exactly the same
way if it's there. If I don't see somebody for
twenty years and I see them, it's as if no
time has gone by. I don't have I feel as full.
Sometimes I wonder like, oh why did I let so
much time go by when I have such a lovely,
(24:32):
you know connection. And then equally I can say, there's
you know, people that you know they come back that
maybe you know you're okay that they don't write something
I don't already. I'm a good friend. We'll be right
back with more good friend after this quick break. And
(25:00):
it's so interesting. It's very similar. You and I are
similar see the now, as we are leaning into each
other in our lives, all of a sudden like, oh,
she's just like me. Oh my goodness, there's so much
we have so many things. It's do you have friends
from when you went to school? No, No, I have one.
(25:24):
I have a couple of women from high school who
I if they've called me, I would be happy to
see them and talk to them. But I don't have
a constant, you know, in the in the main stream
of my life of trying to sort of manifest my destiny.
I am not in contact with them. No. Is there
(25:47):
a reason, you know, I'm always fascinated with people who
went to school from elementary on up and have friendships
that you know, carried through like it's so foreign to
me um and intriguing. Well, it's also by the way
your life, like mine, has taken you around the world
(26:09):
and you have created family units, friend units on every
job you've ever done. And as soon as you were
in a partnership or marriage and you had a child,
you know, life gets as you know, complicated, and all
of a sudden you're worn fairly thin. There's not a
(26:31):
lot of space for other people. You you're the connect
the dots with people often is around your work, or
around the children, or around your family, and there's not
a lot of room. I think there are some people
who stay in the same town who as children's You know,
(26:51):
there are people more rooted, yes, And in that rooting,
I think it has allowed their tree of friendship to
really blossom and grow and flower and leaf many many
many seasons um intertwined around each other. That has not
necessarily been the case. There's always been one primary woman
(27:14):
friend in sort of each of the decades of my
life who have become then my teacher that you know,
I believe God put them in my path. We both
satisfied some deep need for each other in that meeting,
and then the lessons, the exposure to things, the lessons
(27:37):
um and then it drifts and and then someone else
comes into my path, and I have felt guilt about
it and badly about it, and I'm I'm assuming you're
the same way. Again, I we don't know each other
that well in in that sense, and I actually don't know.
I know, for instance, Amanda referred to you. I've spoke
(27:59):
to Amanda to I don't know, and she talked about
that I've known d a long time and that our relationship.
You know, that you've had a relationship for a long time.
Talk to me a little bit about your You articulated
beautifully your high school life, your early life about alliances
and thing and figuring it out super quick and then gone,
(28:22):
now next one, figure it out again, gone, next one.
And I think that's really something people can relate to
once you started to be a little more of an adult. Sorry,
how did did you were? How old when you started
working regularly? Yus? Let's see, I started young, but really
(28:45):
didn't start to get jobs until I was over eighteen
because normally it's less expensive and less complicated if they
hire someone who's of age to play younger. And I
started venturing down this path at like fifteen or sixteen,
and um, when I encountered this obstacle, I then ventured
(29:09):
into making money as a as a doing a little modeling,
where I learned quickly and lied about my age. So
there that I, um just avoided that complication. And again,
unlike how things are today, they didn't have the access
to checking every little you know, detail of your of
your life, um like we have with now with the internet.
(29:32):
So there's a couple of things about this question. So
one like that ability to just kind of cut off
and move on was up until you know, the recent past,
so easy and natural that it almost scared me. And
(29:53):
I think I think there was a moment, maybe like
ten or fifteen years oh, where I realized that it
didn't really reflect how I felt. So I had to
start to explore another way of being, you know, appreciate
the parts of that that are you know, helpful to compartmentalize,
(30:17):
like what you were talking about with work. Um. But
I realized the other element for me that was difficult
in being able to really nurture friendships really reflected my
self esteem. My general perception was, especially if someone was
(30:45):
appear or had a certain level of success, my perception is,
they won't really want to be friends with me, so
I shouldn't bother And so I would wait until someone
maybe made a little bit of an overture towards me.
(31:06):
And when I realized, like, well, how would somebody know
if I didn't also make an effort. But I so
much of it was my fear and insecurity, um that
I wasn't good enough, so who would really want to
be friends with me? And all of that other list
of kind of garbage that I attached to my value.
(31:29):
And I think it was only when I had a
friend for kind of brought it to my attention about
not reaching out that I realized that, oh that could
matter to somebody that I didn't make like I moved
up to Idaho, and so I wasn't reaching out all
the time as I had been when I was living
(31:54):
in l a As just to give a context, and
for me, it was perfectly normal. I hadn't changed my
feelings towards this person, but it it hurt their feelings
and I was like a whole learning curve for me. Well,
we both have the privilege of having a home outside
(32:14):
of Los Angeles that we both get to go to. Now,
you you have rooted there much more than I ever did.
But the idea of again, for me, out of sight,
out of mind, I don't mean out of mind meaning
I don't care about them or I don't care about you.
(32:35):
I'm saying you're not in my active mind because I'm
here now and what's in front of me is blank
and that's where my focus is. It. It doesn't mean
I don't think about people. It's it's just I have
to conjure them. I have to go I wonder what's
(32:57):
going on with so and so, and then I will
reach out and connect. And I also understand that there's
a part of it that I'm just not ever going
to be enough, constant enough with them two. Like everybody
has to accept it. And I think that's what happens
when you become a friend of somebody, um, who has
(33:19):
an ability to cut and run because of their job
quote air quote job. But also just we also live
in two different places, and living in two different places
allows that. I also think different times create different needs
and desires in your friendships, and at least I can
(33:43):
speak for myself, like I think in a way, you know,
in our early life we are striving with our careers.
We then are thinking about if we want to have
a family or not, and so then everything has kind
of put like just to try to balance those two
things family marriage, There's not much room to be honest, um,
(34:08):
especially with jobs that are taking you everywhere and not
leaving you kind of in one place. Um. And I
feel like as I've gotten older, I just cherish my
female friendships like like for me, they are essential to
(34:33):
my well being. There was some study, I don't know
if it was a Stanford study or where that actually
broke down that that for women, the friendships that they
couldn't do without were there female friendships. I really feel
like I can speak to that. In my younger years
(34:55):
I couldn't have. I don't know. I always appreciated my friendships,
but I really treasure them now and and I am
learning though how to invest in them in a way
that also is enriching through learning from other friends. Yes,
(35:15):
and that's how you know, that's how we get mothered
by our friends. That's how we get sisters. We get
sistered by our friends. Um, and that's how we get
friended by our friends. We we learned from each other.
And my example of you showing up at that book
reading was important because it sometimes it's just suit up
(35:38):
and showed up, suit up and show up. That's that
in itself, just the presence, the power of presence of
somebody else's presence, of them bearing witness to you and
you bearing witness to them. It's it's what we do,
you know, in celebration, and it's what we do in death. Mm.
(36:00):
We bear witness. We stand in silent solidarity with our
friends and family and let the grieving feel that support. Wordless.
(36:20):
There are no words you can write, there's no object
you can give. But your presence is powerful. And you know,
I think that's certainly something um. And you know when
you talked about being insecure, I think meant I know
(36:43):
my listener will be nodding, because I think we're all
insecure and it's a very you know, it's a very
powerful thing. And forgive my little baby imitation, but well
you'll be my friend. You know that little hand Are
(37:05):
you a friend? That little gesture of that? And I
think that just stays with us always, And that's not
that different than in high school, which is like a
nightmare for most people, because you know you're also it's
heightened to the heightened what you look like, how attractive
(37:26):
are YouTube, whatever sex you're attracted to. You know how
much your body is freaking out and you're not in
control of it. And you were once a beautiful little
girl and now you've got pimples or breasts and you're
feeling like your body changed and you don't recognize it
(37:49):
and who am I now? And all of it. And
I think your statement of that vulnerability, I think is
is profound. It's that is what it is is. I
think anybody who pretends other than that feeling when you're
young is lying because I think I do agree it's
(38:09):
it's universal. Something else that just struck me too in
my just my own particular experience. And I don't know
if if there's any part that resonates for you in
this and perhaps not, but I somehow, through my experience
with my own mother, made up that in relation to women,
(38:37):
that I should not lean on them, that I should
be totally self sufficient and not burden another woman. Uh.
And you know that my mother was obviously not the
safest person, and so I didn't have that sense of
(39:00):
a safety net of of i'm having a hard time,
let me go to my mom. You know, that just
didn't just wasn't familiar, and so in true fashion, I
just kind of cut that off as an option. Just
don't go there, and if you are there, definitely do
(39:21):
not become needy or a burden. Yeah, which is kind
of cuts off the very beautiful nature of of how
we are with one another as women by you know,
being authentic and being you know, uh, vulnerable. And so
(39:46):
I think there's that's been part of my learning curve.
And I think some you know, and I also think
that women are generally, almost in an unspoken way, are
conditioned to be pitted against one another. Oh, I don't
think it's in and I think it's a very conscious
(40:10):
plan because two things just popped in my head. One
is you talk about family, and I too, totally too.
You know, was raised with the need no one. I
want nothing, need no one, And being a burden is
a burden. And that's why they call it a burden.
And I remember just popped in my mind. I remember
(40:32):
when Paul Simon sang um in Graceland, he said, you
are the burden of my generation. I sure do love you,
but let's get that straight in that in that song
about going to Graceland with his little boy, and I remember,
you know, burden, children are burdens. People we are we
are messy, you know, we just it's it's burden something.
(40:56):
But it's a burden. You you choose for the most
art and you you how you carry the burden is
really the beauty and grace of your life. Um. And anyway,
but what was I going to say? It was something
about the competition. Wait, well, right, so I you know,
(41:16):
out of the blue, one time I got sent because
I didn't get sent these kind of things very often,
you know, I did horror movies and so it was
not like I didn't get the beautifully written works that
other women didn't. That's groovy, and I'm very content with
my creative life. But Wendy Wasserstein, Uh, they did the
(41:38):
Heidi Chronicles for television on T n T, and they
asked me to play Heidi Holland, the lead character in
the Hidi Chronicles, And I had to meet Wendy for
her to approve me, you know what I mean. Like,
they said, we'd like Jamie to do this thing, and
(41:59):
she was like, m I don't know. And so anyway
I met her, and you know, Heidi Hollands. The sort
of center point of the whole thing is this woman
giving a speech at a girls school luncheon entitled women
Where are They Now? Or No, Women, where are We Going?
(42:20):
It was about the future of women, and Heidi, in
this very challenged moment in her life, gives this sort
of like rambling speech about going to the gym and
about the women in the gym. We're talking about their
shoes and like this specific show and that they were
talking about it like the best shoe you can get.
(42:41):
And it was this wonderful monologue. It's about a seven
minute monologue in the middle of this play and she's
really losing it and she's angry about it, that this
is where we are after the Women's movement and the
end of it, and I'm going to butcher it, So
any Wendy Wasserstein fan out there, please forgive me. But
(43:04):
the last couple lines of it are I thought the
whole point was that we were in this together, Like,
isn't that the point of the Women's movement? Because all
it was about was these shoes and this one's husband
(43:24):
was stopping this one and this one was trying to
get a job here, but she was a tramp and that,
and it was the conversation of these women in this
locker room that really upset Heidi Holland. And we're supposed
to the women's movement was supposed to bring us further
(43:48):
in equality in in the gender equality, but it was
also supposed to make us sisters. Sisters are doing it
for themselves, we're together, and it doesn't and it's it's it.
It got stimulated by you talking about um the companion.
(44:12):
What's interesting about what you're saying is, and again I'm
just wondering, it just can be as you were talking,
is now that men are having to be more accountable
to their behavior. I feel like it's actually opened the
(44:35):
pathway for that to occur because there's a part of
of the wall of defense that's been able to come
down where we are really seeing one another for that
vulnerability that we had to buffer against. Wow, I hope so.
(44:58):
And we're seeing it more in our industry. We're seeing
more women get opportunities. I noticed that the d G
A magazine came across my desk the other day and
there were two women in the out of the five,
which is a big shift. Yes, UM, to see two
(45:19):
women be recognized for their work. So, yes, it's so interesting.
I think you're right. I think that this time of reckoning,
this reckoning UM, will yield more of that. I hope
and I and I'm definitely not one to you know that. One.
(45:43):
I don't want to see things as black and white,
good and bad, right and wrong, because I just don't
think that's an accurate reflection of UM. And I don't
like to look at men as bad. I believe that
they have had conditioning also that's encouraged them and made
(46:04):
it okay, rewarded them and exactly. And I think that
you know, We've got some ways to go for sure. Um,
and I think a part of that is, you know,
or I wonder is the evolution you know, women fifty
(46:29):
and up. I think, you know, if we go way
back in time, you know, this was a time that
shifts were made internally, hormonally, and I think there was
a natural inclination to then push men away and you know,
kind of be carved out as we're done with you know,
(46:50):
child bearing, and uh, you know, this is this other
time and somehow our value became attached to to our
fertility along the way. But what I'm wondering is it's
(47:11):
almost like who we are today in our fifties and
sixties isn't really like reflective of what's actually occurring in
our bodies entirely. Does that make sense? Yeah, I it's
almost like the evolutionary process hasn't caught up to who
we are. We we do feel, you know, I have
(47:35):
an interest in being desired and and are very much engaged,
And there's this holdover that almost as trying to categorically
dismiss us. And I don't think it's conscious. I think
you're talking about like retiring us. You know, there's a
(47:55):
retirement age. It used to be fifty people would work
in a company and then retire at fifth hand. You know,
women traditionally have been retired, Um, a bit put out
to pasture. UM. And I agree with you. I think,
I think the great examples of people, But ultimately I
(48:21):
think that's an that is in the mind. I think
it's but I do think in that menopausal, that word
that you know is not really spoken about very much,
certainly not in a way that I felt like I
really understood what that meant. What does that mean for
(48:41):
for a woman? And um, and it's more openly spoken about,
but still not that much. UM. But what are the
effects that that may have on how we think about ourselves?
And so when we when we change, we think we
will change our experience for sure. And just to kind
(49:08):
of pull it full circle before I say goodbye to you,
is we do that not alone. We do that with
our friends. We do that in community, sisterhood. In communion
with our friends, we show each other the possibilities of
(49:29):
new ideas. That old idea that women are put out
to pasture, they're hysterical, they're you know, their past all
of that that that was an old idea of what
women were for and how they were to be thought
of and treated. And the more I mean, every woman
(49:51):
you and I now are good friends with are vibrant, creative,
u powerhouses and wisdom. So you have the dynamism and
the drive of a young woman in their twenties, but
(50:16):
you have the wisdom to be able to match it
with which then grounds it into something really deep and yummy.
And every single woman you and I know in our
girls group, in our friend group, with our daughters, we
(50:37):
are going to mirror for them through our own friendships.
This is what will can happen to you in your
sixties and seventies. This is what can happen to you.
You can get deeper and wiser and prettier and stronger
and more creative and more or desirable. All of those
(51:01):
things make you more desirable because you know, desire comes
from inside you, and what happens in your mind and
how you think of yourself comes out through you through
the work you do, and ultimately is is the thing
(51:22):
that people go look at her, I want you know,
I want what she has. I want that, And I
think that that really speaks to one thing, which is
love of self. That that is the journey that I
think we're on for all of humanity, men and women alike.
That is what we're here for, is the journey to
(51:47):
love ourselves so that we thereby really find the essence
of loving everywhere. I love you, demand, I love you, Jane,
wonderful Wow. Thank you for being I'm the good friend
to be here so I could talk to you for hours,
(52:09):
which we will in other worlds. So for my listener,
if you're still there, I would think you're leaning in
and nodding um. Please stay safe out there. God bless you,
and tune in another time. Thank you so much for
being here. I really it was thrilling to me. Thank you.
(52:43):
Good Friend is produced by Dylan Fagin and is a
production of my Heart Radio. Our theme song, good Friend
is written, produced, and performed by Emily King. Don't already,
(53:05):
ILL get it from a good friend. If there's something
I don't already, I know all get it from a
good friend. For more podcasts from my Heart Radio, visit
the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you
listen to your favorite shows.
If there's something logative. I'm a good friend. Hi everybody,
it's Jamie Lee Curtis and you're listening to the Good
Friend Podcast, presented to you by I Heart Radio. It's
a podcast about friendship. We talk about everything, We cry,
(00:24):
we laugh, we think about what it really means to
be a good friend. And I have conversations with some
of my best friends, some people I've never met, and
sort of everything in between. So I hope by the
end of it that you have a really good sense
(00:47):
of what friendship means to me and the people that
I consider friends. And I hope you can take those
same ideas into your own friendship groups, and I hope
you enjoy it. I don't know. I am a good friend.
(01:07):
Hi everybody, it's UM, the Good Friend podcast where we
discuss friendship, and I am really excited today. I've been
looking forward to it, UM to talk to my friend,
to me more UM, because we've been friends for thirty
(01:29):
plus years, but yet it's only recently that we have
leaned into it in a way, and in that what
comes from it, which I think is interesting and very
unique to us, is that we had a peripheral understanding
of each other we had a mutual admiration society where
(01:55):
I need to tell my listener this. Um, I think
we have one. I like to at least say we
have one listener. Um. I just think you know. I'm
trying to be grounded and not be grandiose, so I
do believe we have a listener. Um. I will tell
you something that happened when I first made my first
(02:15):
book for children, which was a surprise to me. It
was called When I was a Little a four year
old memoir of her youth. It was a book for children.
It was produced, and the first book signing I ever
did was at a store called Children's Book World on
Pico Boulevard. And this was pre Internet, pre social media,
(02:39):
pre all of us becoming our own pr people, pre
us selling, selling, selling, selling, selling everything ourselves. And I
remember I did very little promotion. I think I was
working at the time and I couldn't do a big promotion.
And all I remember is sitting down to read and
(02:59):
then in some and when I looked up to me,
Moore was there with I think you're I think it
was only rumor, right, definitely rumor. Maybe Scout Scout was
born in Yeah, I think it was before then, Yeah,
I think it was before then. Um, And you know
it's so interesting, is my you know, perspective or perception
(03:23):
was of such awe. The book was so moving to me,
and I was just really enamored that you had done this.
Also the personal story that you were telling, and just
how beautiful it was that you I don't know, we're
just openly sharing, but you had found this context to
(03:47):
bring it forward, and I think I was really intimidated. Well,
we'll discuss that. I am letting you know that even
though we were not close friends, we were acquaintances, we
had things in common. We will kind of unpack that
a little bit here today to kind of figure out
(04:08):
how we kind of circled each other a little bit.
But I will tell you in that moment, for you
to be sitting there a cross legged on the ground
with your daughter looking up as I was doing my
first ever book signing slash reading in the bookstore that
(04:29):
I used to shop for my daughter's books from when
she was born, was so moving to me. And your
level of support in that moment was crucial, particularly because
we weren't close friends. It wasn't like we were besties
and you'd like, of course I'm going to be you
know what I mean, Like we really hadn't I didn't
(04:51):
even know you knew I had made a book. I
just I remember that moment in the grace that you
um brought and the moment was very moving to me,
so much to me to know that, because you know,
in life, I really feel like we have these encounters
(05:13):
where someone impacts us, but the other person may not
have any clue or really know the depth of the
impact that that small action may have had. It's always
fascinating to me, like I have one of those not
too like go too far off track, but go wherever
(05:34):
you want to go. This is a we are free
and Easy podcast. It can go wherever it goes well.
So this was just about impact because the director Gary Marshall,
who was a big part of Happy Days, UM and
I was a teenager living in West Hollywood and I
was invited to go see a taping of it at
(05:57):
Paramount Studios, and the person who had invited me knew
one of the actors, and so there was a bit
of a little bit more of a connection than just
the general audience. Anyway, after the show, we were speaking
and I was introduced to Gary Marshall, and I think
(06:20):
I was a fairly high energy person. I still am.
And I remember Gary Marshall turning to me and saying,
if you could harness that energy, you could really do
something with it. Hm. And for whatever reason I understood
what that meant. Years later I mentioned it to him,
(06:42):
and of course he didn't remember it at all, And
yet the profound impact that it had on me and
on how I from that moment on perceived life and
the importance of channeling my energy, yeah, it was it
for ever changed in a moment. So but that's a
(07:04):
really interesting thread to unravel our sweater because obviously, as friends,
we are very intentional. We we suit up and show up.
If it's a birthday, we want to make sure that
that person feels our presence, our vision of them, that
(07:24):
we see them, that we hear them, that we have
found the perfect gifting to mark that occasion. The celebrations
that take place around people's accomplishments, whatever it is, become ritualized,
they become uh you know, commercialized, they become uh more realized,
(07:50):
the more exactly, And there's something so interesting to me
about random moments of sight of impact that you just
described that I described to you about you sitting there
at the on the ground at this book thing. You weren't.
(08:12):
You weren't trying to say to me anything. But I
see you, I hear you. I appreciate you in that moment,
and I'm proud of you in that moment. I'm here
and I was all of those things that you just said.
I wasn't more. But you see, you didn't call me
(08:34):
for a week before going, hey, it's to me, um.
I was thinking coming your book signing. It's so great
that you're doing it. And afterwards you didn't try to
connect back to it. You let the moment be the moment.
It didn't need articulation, It didn't need to be stretched
(08:54):
and pulled and reshaped into something. It was a moment
of connection and and bearing witness. And then it was over.
And I have never forgotten it. And as you said,
you've never forgotten. With Gary Marshall, he probably forgot that.
(09:16):
He ever said to you, you know, if you could
harness it, didn't even never remember meeting me. That's how
that's how different are our experiences can be of the
same event. Now with this event, truly, I remember just
being in awe that you had written a book, and
(09:38):
I remember asking you about the person who did um
the illustration, and God, I can keep just keep saying it,
and all of how it all came together. And believe me,
when that book showed up in an envelope at my house,
after all of the drawings have been submitted, all of
(10:00):
the you know, color version of those drawings had been
stapled together in what they called an f N G
fold and gather, and you get sent that and then
you get sent to proof all of it. When that
hard back book arrived in an envelope at my house
and I opened that, I had the exact same feeling
(10:24):
you did, which is, how did this happen? How is
this here? I don't understand it. It is perfect in
its perfection, and apparently I had something to do with it,
but I didn't even do you know what I mean?
(10:44):
That this was an experience for you that almost was
like a channeled experience in the sense of story that
came through and from the outside it seemed like the
most natural that it happened with such grace and ease,
and like it's something that you should have always been doing.
There's something I'm a good friend. We'll be right back
(11:09):
with more good friend after this quick break, so stick around, don't.
I'm a good friend. Let's talk about channeling, because I
think we're in an industry where the creative processs. If
(11:32):
you've ever if my listener and you have never read
Marilyn Monroe's last interview about her process about trying to be,
you know, to be in the movie business, and she
talks about the art form of being an actor, and
yet it is scheduled, like this minute, scheduled thing where
(12:00):
it's like at ten a m you will create art.
And she talks about like what if you're not feeling
it like it's art, it's it's it's reaction, it's and
But that's part of the discipline. No, without question, it's
(12:21):
part of the discipline. But there is something that happens
in our lives where the channel does open, where the
muse hits you. Where I had never thought I was
going to write a book, the last thing in the
world I thought I would do his write books because
I could barely get through his school. So the idea
that a book popped into my head in the way
(12:44):
it did with Annie making a funny statement and me
reacting to it blah blah blah. To that point, Elizabeth
Gilbert did um ted talk if you haven't seen it,
And part of what she talks about is how success.
So her first book wasn't how this energy coming towards
her like, oh, you know you're gonna be able to
(13:06):
top that? And this pressure that can come in um,
that can almost be debilitating. And for some writers, like Harperly,
she never really wrote another novel again. Um. But one
of the things Elizabeth Gilbert talks about is that in
our current time, we have started to refer to people
(13:29):
as being a genius versus how it used to be
referred to as having a genius. And that meant that
it popped in. Sometimes it was there and sometimes it wasn't.
And you know, and those are those real transcendent moments
that really do exists beyond you know, space and time.
(13:57):
And I think, um, you talked about that when you
wrote the foreword to Mark Neppo's book, that it just
like float in and uh. And I really love that
idea of having a genius because it takes the pressure
off of and and it and it embraces our humanity
(14:22):
are imperfection that it's not that. Sometimes that the genius
is there and you need to stop what you're doing
and go write it down or because it'll it's fleeting.
So sometimes your genius, your little genius, shows up, and
sometimes he doesn't at ten am. Sometimes right right right right,
(14:44):
Oh wow, I need to now watch that. And and
that is how you know, in relation to you showing
up for me as a friend an acquaintance sitting there
honoring that moment, I think friends have a way of
(15:04):
sort of protecting that spirit in you. So I'm interested
in your early friendships if you could just explain to
my listener a little bit about your early life and
how did you connect in friendship to people? Did you
such an interesting area to explore for me, because you know,
(15:30):
there's always the pluses and minuses. I did have some
really harsh UM experiences growing up, UM. One of them
being that one of the elements UM is that we
moved so much. I was in never less than two
schools a year, and which made me extremely adaptable. I
(15:54):
was a very quick study UM my ability to get
then assessed know who was who, how things are operating,
who was wielding power? You know, like just how a
system worked like was almost like instantaneous UM, and it
allowed me to really appreciate whatever was there while it
(16:18):
was there, and knowing that, you know, don't get too
attached because you're going to be moving on soon. And
the downside of that was my adapting made me always
looking externally to find my place. How can I assimilate,
(16:42):
how can I fit in? And so knowing what I liked,
what I didn't like, what I was really interested in
was was definitely UM filtered through pleasing and fitting in,
and the other part of it that was I think
has been a challenge and an opportunity is not being attached.
(17:07):
Not getting too attached also doesn't lend itself to knowing
how to nurture friendships. It doesn't know how to follow
up and call. It doesn't know UH like I didn't
have in my UM, you know, tool shed how you
build long term friendships. Because for me, it was great
(17:30):
while I was there, and I never held anything negative.
If I were to run into someone that I knew again,
that would be amazing. I just never expected it. And
I think on the other side of that, I think
I may have hurt people's feelings without ever knowing it.
Because I just didn't know how two invest in that way. Interesting,
(17:58):
I'm very similar out of sight, out of mind, and
I have a lot of tools to kind of keep
me very focused. I'm, as you know, incredibly sort of.
It's the way my brain works, which is why if
you ever need somebody to go through and help you
(18:18):
let go of items, I'm your girl, because I just
have that internal filing system that I've always had. I've
had that since hyper vigilance. Though it is well from
that end of in a brain that operates logically, which
mine does as well. So with that though, I am
(18:38):
able to pivot. And we are both professional actors in
a field that demands an immersion into a group of people,
the exact same description of the hierarchy the weakness. Who
is the person to go to, who is the person
to not go to? Who can you trust? Who do
(19:01):
you have to be light and polite with who? And
I think that skill has served us both very well
as actors, because that's what happens to the listener. We
drop into a group of a hundred plus people, let's
say a hundred fifty people every time, and you make alliances.
(19:22):
It's very much like the survivor show where you know,
you have these teams and you have alliances and you
you and then it's over and occasionally and occasionally you
walk away with one friend, maybe two, but even one
(19:43):
that that you really stay close with. But it's you know,
it is it's like many marriages, very much so. And
for me, I was able to pivot and then go
into the next thing. And I actually haven't made that
many friends. Even though on the last day of work
(20:06):
you're weeping, You feel incredibly bonded with a group of people.
There are professions of lifelong friendship and we will know
each other for the rest of our lives kind of thing.
And then my secret now is for the listener, there
is a thing called a wrap party, which is at
(20:26):
the end of a movie or end of a TV
show or end of a creative work. You rap. You
know that's a rap. You've heard that phrase, so that's
a rap. Means now it's finished. And there is a
rap party that happens where often people get drunk um
and of course all of the withheld feelings people genuinely
(20:50):
develop in a close intense creative experience sometimes come out
and gets a little missy. Often people who have been
the single people in your life. You don't know them
as family people. All of a sudden they show up
with their wives, sometimes their kids, and you're like, okay, wow,
(21:10):
I had no idea, but there's always that moment where
you have to leave. And my secret and anybody who
if a listener has tuned in, who has worked with
me on a movie, you will be nodding your head.
I always at some point I don't stay long. I
(21:31):
show up usually smile, say hi to many people's families,
and then I go, oh, you know, I left something
in my car. I'll be right back, and I go
because I'm like a French exit. Oh is that what
it's called. Yeah, I mean there's a few French exit
Irish exit, but why are they only in Europe? Why
(21:51):
can't they be like a Tulsa exit. That's all I've
ever heard, is like where somebody just you don't even
say anything, you just dip away. Well, but that was
my way of cutting it off, to stop that energy
flow and be able to be not actually having to
say it's done, it's like and and without having to
(22:15):
lie and in that way of saying I'm so it
was so great. It was so fun. I'm gonna miss
you and we'll talk soon. I'm never going to talk
to you again, is the truth. The nine nine nine
percent of the time. I am not going to talk
to anybody again that I've worked with, but I member
them if you do end up having somebody on the crew.
(22:38):
So here's a great example. Um. Weirdly enough, the cinematographers
guilt gave me, uh sort of life achievement toward I'm
at that age now you're a way younger than Oh no,
not much. I am at that age now my hair
is gray, and they're like, shall be dead soon, we
(22:58):
gotta do it now. And I went and had a
wonderful evening and uh, somebody came over to my table
and said, hey, um, Dave, have these have these pictures
from when they worked with you on blah blah blah.
And no it wasn't Dave, Sorry, it was a Dolly
Grip came with these pictures. And then on the panel,
(23:23):
one of the honorees was a man that I went
down the Amazon with in a canoe for the Guinness
Book of World Records. And I was like, Dave, and
it was as if we had just gotten out of
the boat, I went and found him, and that's the
level of connection. It was immediate. It was as close
(23:48):
as we were when spending three weeks together in the Amazon.
And I haven't really seen them since. So in those moments,
I think, when you don't old expectation or define the
value of the relationship except for embracing it just as
(24:09):
it is, I feel like I am exactly the same
way if it's there. If I don't see somebody for
twenty years and I see them, it's as if no
time has gone by. I don't have I feel as full.
Sometimes I wonder like, oh why did I let so
much time go by when I have such a lovely,
(24:32):
you know connection. And then equally I can say, there's
you know, people that you know they come back that
maybe you know you're okay that they don't write something
I don't already. I'm a good friend. We'll be right
back with more good friend after this quick break. And
(25:00):
it's so interesting. It's very similar. You and I are
similar see the now, as we are leaning into each
other in our lives, all of a sudden like, oh,
she's just like me. Oh my goodness, there's so much
we have so many things. It's do you have friends
from when you went to school? No, No, I have one.
(25:24):
I have a couple of women from high school who
I if they've called me, I would be happy to
see them and talk to them. But I don't have
a constant, you know, in the in the main stream
of my life of trying to sort of manifest my destiny.
I am not in contact with them. No. Is there
(25:47):
a reason, you know, I'm always fascinated with people who
went to school from elementary on up and have friendships
that you know, carried through like it's so foreign to
me um and intriguing. Well, it's also by the way
your life, like mine, has taken you around the world
(26:09):
and you have created family units, friend units on every
job you've ever done. And as soon as you were
in a partnership or marriage and you had a child,
you know, life gets as you know, complicated, and all
of a sudden you're worn fairly thin. There's not a
(26:31):
lot of space for other people. You you're the connect
the dots with people often is around your work, or
around the children, or around your family, and there's not
a lot of room. I think there are some people
who stay in the same town who as children's You know,
(26:51):
there are people more rooted, yes, And in that rooting,
I think it has allowed their tree of friendship to
really blossom and grow and flower and leaf many many
many seasons um intertwined around each other. That has not
necessarily been the case. There's always been one primary woman
(27:14):
friend in sort of each of the decades of my
life who have become then my teacher that you know,
I believe God put them in my path. We both
satisfied some deep need for each other in that meeting,
and then the lessons, the exposure to things, the lessons
(27:37):
um and then it drifts and and then someone else
comes into my path, and I have felt guilt about
it and badly about it, and I'm I'm assuming you're
the same way. Again, I we don't know each other
that well in in that sense, and I actually don't know.
I know, for instance, Amanda referred to you. I've spoke
(27:59):
to Amanda to I don't know, and she talked about
that I've known d a long time and that our relationship.
You know, that you've had a relationship for a long time.
Talk to me a little bit about your You articulated
beautifully your high school life, your early life about alliances
and thing and figuring it out super quick and then gone,
(28:22):
now next one, figure it out again, gone, next one.
And I think that's really something people can relate to
once you started to be a little more of an adult. Sorry,
how did did you were? How old when you started
working regularly? Yus? Let's see, I started young, but really
(28:45):
didn't start to get jobs until I was over eighteen
because normally it's less expensive and less complicated if they
hire someone who's of age to play younger. And I
started venturing down this path at like fifteen or sixteen,
and um, when I encountered this obstacle, I then ventured
(29:09):
into making money as a as a doing a little modeling,
where I learned quickly and lied about my age. So
there that I, um just avoided that complication. And again,
unlike how things are today, they didn't have the access
to checking every little you know, detail of your of
your life, um like we have with now with the internet.
(29:32):
So there's a couple of things about this question. So
one like that ability to just kind of cut off
and move on was up until you know, the recent past,
so easy and natural that it almost scared me. And
(29:53):
I think I think there was a moment, maybe like
ten or fifteen years oh, where I realized that it
didn't really reflect how I felt. So I had to
start to explore another way of being, you know, appreciate
the parts of that that are you know, helpful to compartmentalize,
(30:17):
like what you were talking about with work. Um. But
I realized the other element for me that was difficult
in being able to really nurture friendships really reflected my
self esteem. My general perception was, especially if someone was
(30:45):
appear or had a certain level of success, my perception is,
they won't really want to be friends with me, so
I shouldn't bother And so I would wait until someone
maybe made a little bit of an overture towards me.
(31:06):
And when I realized, like, well, how would somebody know
if I didn't also make an effort. But I so
much of it was my fear and insecurity, um that
I wasn't good enough, so who would really want to
be friends with me? And all of that other list
of kind of garbage that I attached to my value.
(31:29):
And I think it was only when I had a
friend for kind of brought it to my attention about
not reaching out that I realized that, oh that could
matter to somebody that I didn't make like I moved
up to Idaho, and so I wasn't reaching out all
the time as I had been when I was living
(31:54):
in l a As just to give a context, and
for me, it was perfectly normal. I hadn't changed my
feelings towards this person, but it it hurt their feelings
and I was like a whole learning curve for me. Well,
we both have the privilege of having a home outside
(32:14):
of Los Angeles that we both get to go to. Now,
you you have rooted there much more than I ever did.
But the idea of again, for me, out of sight,
out of mind, I don't mean out of mind meaning
I don't care about them or I don't care about you.
(32:35):
I'm saying you're not in my active mind because I'm
here now and what's in front of me is blank
and that's where my focus is. It. It doesn't mean
I don't think about people. It's it's just I have
to conjure them. I have to go I wonder what's
(32:57):
going on with so and so, and then I will
reach out and connect. And I also understand that there's
a part of it that I'm just not ever going
to be enough, constant enough with them two. Like everybody
has to accept it. And I think that's what happens
when you become a friend of somebody, um, who has
(33:19):
an ability to cut and run because of their job
quote air quote job. But also just we also live
in two different places, and living in two different places
allows that. I also think different times create different needs
and desires in your friendships, and at least I can
(33:43):
speak for myself, like I think in a way, you know,
in our early life we are striving with our careers.
We then are thinking about if we want to have
a family or not, and so then everything has kind
of put like just to try to balance those two
things family marriage, There's not much room to be honest, um,
(34:08):
especially with jobs that are taking you everywhere and not
leaving you kind of in one place. Um. And I
feel like as I've gotten older, I just cherish my
female friendships like like for me, they are essential to
(34:33):
my well being. There was some study, I don't know
if it was a Stanford study or where that actually
broke down that that for women, the friendships that they
couldn't do without were there female friendships. I really feel
like I can speak to that. In my younger years
(34:55):
I couldn't have. I don't know. I always appreciated my friendships,
but I really treasure them now and and I am
learning though how to invest in them in a way
that also is enriching through learning from other friends. Yes,
(35:15):
and that's how you know, that's how we get mothered
by our friends. That's how we get sisters. We get
sistered by our friends. Um, and that's how we get
friended by our friends. We we learned from each other.
And my example of you showing up at that book
reading was important because it sometimes it's just suit up
(35:38):
and showed up, suit up and show up. That's that
in itself, just the presence, the power of presence of
somebody else's presence, of them bearing witness to you and
you bearing witness to them. It's it's what we do,
you know, in celebration, and it's what we do in death. Mm.
(36:00):
We bear witness. We stand in silent solidarity with our
friends and family and let the grieving feel that support. Wordless.
(36:20):
There are no words you can write, there's no object
you can give. But your presence is powerful. And you know,
I think that's certainly something um. And you know when
you talked about being insecure, I think meant I know
(36:43):
my listener will be nodding, because I think we're all
insecure and it's a very you know, it's a very
powerful thing. And forgive my little baby imitation, but well
you'll be my friend. You know that little hand Are
(37:05):
you a friend? That little gesture of that? And I
think that just stays with us always, And that's not
that different than in high school, which is like a
nightmare for most people, because you know you're also it's
heightened to the heightened what you look like, how attractive
(37:26):
are YouTube, whatever sex you're attracted to. You know how
much your body is freaking out and you're not in
control of it. And you were once a beautiful little
girl and now you've got pimples or breasts and you're
feeling like your body changed and you don't recognize it
(37:49):
and who am I now? And all of it. And
I think your statement of that vulnerability, I think is
is profound. It's that is what it is is. I
think anybody who pretends other than that feeling when you're
young is lying because I think I do agree it's
(38:09):
it's universal. Something else that just struck me too in
my just my own particular experience. And I don't know
if if there's any part that resonates for you in
this and perhaps not, but I somehow, through my experience
with my own mother, made up that in relation to women,
(38:37):
that I should not lean on them, that I should
be totally self sufficient and not burden another woman. Uh.
And you know that my mother was obviously not the
safest person, and so I didn't have that sense of
(39:00):
a safety net of of i'm having a hard time,
let me go to my mom. You know, that just
didn't just wasn't familiar, and so in true fashion, I
just kind of cut that off as an option. Just
don't go there, and if you are there, definitely do
(39:21):
not become needy or a burden. Yeah, which is kind
of cuts off the very beautiful nature of of how
we are with one another as women by you know,
being authentic and being you know, uh, vulnerable. And so
(39:46):
I think there's that's been part of my learning curve.
And I think some you know, and I also think
that women are generally, almost in an unspoken way, are
conditioned to be pitted against one another. Oh, I don't
think it's in and I think it's a very conscious
(40:10):
plan because two things just popped in my head. One
is you talk about family, and I too, totally too.
You know, was raised with the need no one. I
want nothing, need no one, And being a burden is
a burden. And that's why they call it a burden.
And I remember just popped in my mind. I remember
(40:32):
when Paul Simon sang um in Graceland, he said, you
are the burden of my generation. I sure do love you,
but let's get that straight in that in that song
about going to Graceland with his little boy, and I remember,
you know, burden, children are burdens. People we are we
are messy, you know, we just it's it's burden something.
(40:56):
But it's a burden. You you choose for the most
art and you you how you carry the burden is
really the beauty and grace of your life. Um. And anyway,
but what was I going to say? It was something
about the competition. Wait, well, right, so I you know,
(41:16):
out of the blue, one time I got sent because
I didn't get sent these kind of things very often,
you know, I did horror movies and so it was
not like I didn't get the beautifully written works that
other women didn't. That's groovy, and I'm very content with
my creative life. But Wendy Wasserstein, Uh, they did the
(41:38):
Heidi Chronicles for television on T n T, and they
asked me to play Heidi Holland, the lead character in
the Hidi Chronicles, And I had to meet Wendy for
her to approve me, you know what I mean. Like,
they said, we'd like Jamie to do this thing, and
(41:59):
she was like, m I don't know. And so anyway
I met her, and you know, Heidi Hollands. The sort
of center point of the whole thing is this woman
giving a speech at a girls school luncheon entitled women
Where are They Now? Or No, Women, where are We Going?
(42:20):
It was about the future of women, and Heidi, in
this very challenged moment in her life, gives this sort
of like rambling speech about going to the gym and
about the women in the gym. We're talking about their
shoes and like this specific show and that they were
talking about it like the best shoe you can get.
(42:41):
And it was this wonderful monologue. It's about a seven
minute monologue in the middle of this play and she's
really losing it and she's angry about it, that this
is where we are after the Women's movement and the
end of it, and I'm going to butcher it, So
any Wendy Wasserstein fan out there, please forgive me. But
(43:04):
the last couple lines of it are I thought the
whole point was that we were in this together, Like,
isn't that the point of the Women's movement? Because all
it was about was these shoes and this one's husband
(43:24):
was stopping this one and this one was trying to
get a job here, but she was a tramp and that,
and it was the conversation of these women in this
locker room that really upset Heidi Holland. And we're supposed
to the women's movement was supposed to bring us further
(43:48):
in equality in in the gender equality, but it was
also supposed to make us sisters. Sisters are doing it
for themselves, we're together, and it doesn't and it's it's it.
It got stimulated by you talking about um the companion.
(44:12):
What's interesting about what you're saying is, and again I'm
just wondering, it just can be as you were talking,
is now that men are having to be more accountable
to their behavior. I feel like it's actually opened the
(44:35):
pathway for that to occur because there's a part of
of the wall of defense that's been able to come
down where we are really seeing one another for that
vulnerability that we had to buffer against. Wow, I hope so.
(44:58):
And we're seeing it more in our industry. We're seeing
more women get opportunities. I noticed that the d G
A magazine came across my desk the other day and
there were two women in the out of the five,
which is a big shift. Yes, UM, to see two
(45:19):
women be recognized for their work. So, yes, it's so interesting.
I think you're right. I think that this time of reckoning,
this reckoning UM, will yield more of that. I hope
and I and I'm definitely not one to you know that. One.
(45:43):
I don't want to see things as black and white,
good and bad, right and wrong, because I just don't
think that's an accurate reflection of UM. And I don't
like to look at men as bad. I believe that
they have had conditioning also that's encouraged them and made
(46:04):
it okay, rewarded them and exactly. And I think that
you know, We've got some ways to go for sure. Um,
and I think a part of that is, you know,
or I wonder is the evolution you know, women fifty
(46:29):
and up. I think, you know, if we go way
back in time, you know, this was a time that
shifts were made internally, hormonally, and I think there was
a natural inclination to then push men away and you know,
kind of be carved out as we're done with you know,
(46:50):
child bearing, and uh, you know, this is this other
time and somehow our value became attached to to our
fertility along the way. But what I'm wondering is it's
(47:11):
almost like who we are today in our fifties and
sixties isn't really like reflective of what's actually occurring in
our bodies entirely. Does that make sense? Yeah, I it's
almost like the evolutionary process hasn't caught up to who
we are. We we do feel, you know, I have
(47:35):
an interest in being desired and and are very much engaged,
And there's this holdover that almost as trying to categorically
dismiss us. And I don't think it's conscious. I think
you're talking about like retiring us. You know, there's a
(47:55):
retirement age. It used to be fifty people would work
in a company and then retire at fifth hand. You know,
women traditionally have been retired, Um, a bit put out
to pasture. UM. And I agree with you. I think,
I think the great examples of people, But ultimately I
(48:21):
think that's an that is in the mind. I think
it's but I do think in that menopausal, that word
that you know is not really spoken about very much,
certainly not in a way that I felt like I
really understood what that meant. What does that mean for
(48:41):
for a woman? And um, and it's more openly spoken about,
but still not that much. UM. But what are the
effects that that may have on how we think about ourselves?
And so when we when we change, we think we
will change our experience for sure. And just to kind
(49:08):
of pull it full circle before I say goodbye to you,
is we do that not alone. We do that with
our friends. We do that in community, sisterhood. In communion
with our friends, we show each other the possibilities of
(49:29):
new ideas. That old idea that women are put out
to pasture, they're hysterical, they're you know, their past all
of that that that was an old idea of what
women were for and how they were to be thought
of and treated. And the more I mean, every woman
(49:51):
you and I now are good friends with are vibrant, creative,
u powerhouses and wisdom. So you have the dynamism and
the drive of a young woman in their twenties, but
(50:16):
you have the wisdom to be able to match it
with which then grounds it into something really deep and yummy.
And every single woman you and I know in our
girls group, in our friend group, with our daughters, we
(50:37):
are going to mirror for them through our own friendships.
This is what will can happen to you in your
sixties and seventies. This is what can happen to you.
You can get deeper and wiser and prettier and stronger
and more creative and more or desirable. All of those
(51:01):
things make you more desirable because you know, desire comes
from inside you, and what happens in your mind and
how you think of yourself comes out through you through
the work you do, and ultimately is is the thing
(51:22):
that people go look at her, I want you know,
I want what she has. I want that, And I
think that that really speaks to one thing, which is
love of self. That that is the journey that I
think we're on for all of humanity, men and women alike.
That is what we're here for, is the journey to
(51:47):
love ourselves so that we thereby really find the essence
of loving everywhere. I love you, demand, I love you, Jane,
wonderful Wow. Thank you for being I'm the good friend
to be here so I could talk to you for hours,
(52:09):
which we will in other worlds. So for my listener,
if you're still there, I would think you're leaning in
and nodding um. Please stay safe out there. God bless you,
and tune in another time. Thank you so much for
being here. I really it was thrilling to me. Thank you.
(52:43):
Good Friend is produced by Dylan Fagin and is a
production of my Heart Radio. Our theme song, good Friend
is written, produced, and performed by Emily King. Don't already,
(53:05):
ILL get it from a good friend. If there's something
I don't already, I know all get it from a
good friend. For more podcasts from my Heart Radio, visit
the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you
listen to your favorite shows.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com