April 7, 2022 • 41 mins
On today’s episode of Good Friend, Jamie has a sweet and touching conversation with activist, author and dear friend Sara Cunningham. Tune in to find out the surprising way Sara and Jamie became friends.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
If something doing already, I know I'll get if I'm
a good friend. Hi, everybody, it's Jamie Lee Curtis. You're
listening to the Good Friend Podcast, presented to you by
I Heart Radio. It's a podcast about friendship, sort of
(00:24):
the good, the bad, and the ugly, the triumphs of friendship,
the immense connection and emotion of friendship, the laughter and
occasionally the tears. We explore it all in an unscripted,
very free form way with many, many different guests, some
(00:44):
I'm very close friends with, some I've never met. And
I hope that you will take away from it something
that connects you to your friends, and that the ideas
that we talk about can maybe be taken into your
own friendships. So sit back, or take a walk, or
however you listen. I hope you enjoy it and stay tuned.
(01:05):
Don't already and the laudative and the good friend friend
if you could only see me, which you can't because
it's a podcast, but I have a smile kind of
ear to ear um my friends. Sarah Cunningham has agreed
(01:26):
to talk about friendship here, and I welcome you, Sarah,
Thank you, my friend, my good friend, Sarah Cunningham lives
in Oklahoma. I live in California. You might wonder how
we know each other. I'm going to tell you just
two for the uninitiated listener. Um, I think we may
(01:51):
have one listener, Sarah, and knowing your family, we have
eight um listeners. So so Sarah cunning Him. I met
because Sarah Cunningham did something that has changed the world. Um.
I met Sarah because I saw a Facebook post that
(02:12):
Sarah put up into the world that basically said, if
you are a same sex married getting married in a
same sex wedding and your biological parents, your biological family
do not support you, that she would show up as
a stand in mom um, and that I believe you
(02:36):
said you'd even bring the bubbles. Yes, that's true. I
met the kind that you blow and that goes out
in the air. But some people say, where's this champaigne.
It's okay, it can be champagne bubbles, that can be
the kind you blow and the little thing like a child,
And it was such a declaration of strength, community, spect, courage, steadfastness.
(03:05):
I'm closing my eyes and trying to think of words
that pop into my head about that action. That action
that you took. You took an action, you took a decision.
You didn't make the decision, you took it, and you
raised your hand. And it then, of course exploded. It went,
(03:27):
as the kids say, a little viral. And I saw it,
and I saw it not once but twice. It had
made its way into my phone and I cold called
Sarah Cunningham. I believe it's called Facebook stalking or Twitter stalking.
(03:48):
I do a lot of that, apparently, And Um, I
sent her a d M. I slid into her d
M s and as the kids say, and I sent
term message and with my telephone number. UM, and that
began then a relationship of friendship, a collaboration, and a friendship,
(04:14):
a real friendship. UM. And so that's how we know
each other, and that's how we will continue to know
each other for the rest of our lives, because once
you meet this woman, UM, you don't let go of her. Um.
Were you always like that in friendships? Are you that
(04:36):
type of person? Yes? Yes, I invest all of myself
into a relationship sometime to my to your detriment, yes,
thank you, sor right, Well, I've I've never had too
many friends. I've been very social person. But I have, um,
some very good friends you could probably count on one hand.
(04:58):
And so of them make me laugh, some of them
call me out. Some of them, Um, just like everything
I do, I can do no wrong. And um, some
of them I gleaned from and admire greatly and just
learn they might be out of my caliber. And I
mean that respectfully. But um, it's just kind of a
(05:22):
diversity of friends. I say. I guess. So when you
were little where were you raised? Oklahoma City? And you
made friends easily? You do you still have friends from
when you were very young? Yes? I have one very
dear friend, Cindy Lewis. She lives in Colorado. She has
(05:42):
beautiful red hair, and we talk um a lot. And
she's the one that can make me laugh. She can
like she'll call and I'll pick up the phone and
say hello, and she'll say girl, and it just makes
me laugh. We can be together and not even say
the word and her expressions just cracked me up. And
(06:03):
I just loved her. She I know, I'm always going
to laugh with Cindy. And how and you met in
when you were in little school? Yes, Um, I didn't
have any friends, but I do have brothers. Siblings. We
all kind of went to the school about the same time.
And um, he was he's very handsome, So most of
the time I made friends that wanted to get close
(06:25):
to him, if that makes sense. They would have a
crush on him, but think, oh, I'll just hang out
with his sister and maybe I can go over to
their house and hang out with him instead. So there's
a lot of that going on. And I didn't have
a lot of self confidence. I didn't do very well
in school. We struggled financially as a family, we moved
around a lot, So there's a lot of insecurities in
(06:48):
my life young for most of my school years and um, yeah,
and in high school, when did you meet your husband? Well,
I was best friends with his sister, and I didn't
(07:09):
even really notice him until she invited me to dinner
with his family with her family, and I happened to
set at the table directly across from him, and it's
the first time I really noticed him. And I was
probably maybe fifteen at the time, and he had this beautiful,
feathered hair and the biggest brown eyes you ever saw,
(07:32):
and he was just charming, and I just I loved
him right then and there, and but he didn't really
notice me until later when we were in a swimming
pool and I was varied a two piece bathing suit.
That's then it was on and that was it. That
(07:52):
was it. Do you still have that bathing suit? No,
but I have pictures of it. You might need to
share that, not with the not with my listener, but
with me, and you can, d M. I will. And
when you say you were best friends with his sister,
are you still friends with his sister? Yes? Yeah, she Um,
(08:14):
she's a great aunt. She's been very involved in in
our children's life. And uh, we get together frequently. And yeah,
and M, what did you take to your friends? You
know people take things to friends certain people. Was there
a specific I don't know, situation or situations that you
(08:41):
would take to her your best friend? Yes, you know,
you know you've heard of love languages and how some
people they're tokens of love. Our our gift givings. I
think you're a gift giver. You just pick out the
most unique gifts. And but I've always been terrible at that,
(09:01):
always second guess the gift, or I think maybe they
won't like it or something. I always second think, guess it.
So I'm not a gift giver, but I have been
known to just be kind of eccentric in the way
of old, like I don't know what a memory just
popped in my head. If I may share it? No, no, no, no,
(09:23):
we we edit nothing. We This is a free flowing conversation.
All right, Well, I'm going to share it all. Not
many people have heard this story. Growing up, we had
the neighborhood you know, friends and we would always hang out.
And that's before TV, cell phones all the rest. And
we would get up a daylight and mom would have
(09:44):
to call us in at ten o'clock. And always before
the day was over and it was time to go home,
I would always ask my friends, well, well I see
you tomorrow. What time will you be out? You know,
I always wanted to interact with friends. So we had
this group of neighborhood kids and we would always all
running around. We'd play hide and seek, we would play tag,
I mean in the big field. Well, one day we
(10:06):
decided to go underground, you know the rain catches, and
there they're huge drums underneath the ground that take all
the rain water. Okay, we we went down in that
in that gully, and there was probably four of us,
not many, and all the boys had their shirt off,
and I was the only girl. And I, you know,
(10:28):
I was probably I don't know, maybe eight or nine,
and him I was so flat chested. Guess what I
took off my shirt. I took off my shirt. I
think it had gotten wet. We all were went from
under there, you know. But they didn't care what they weren't.
They didn't care. Nobody cared, you know. And so that's
the kind of friendships I had growing up, where there
(10:49):
was no pressure or I don't know. It was just
a wonderful childhood in the sense, in that sense, we're
are heathens, is what it was. We were heathen by
the way we were. All children are heathens, but fair.
But children on some level are heathens and feral if
(11:11):
they haven't been so conditioned to restrict their natural impulses. UM.
I raised my um second child under a program called
RYE Resources for Infant Edge to Cares are i E
started by a woman named Magda Gerber. And you know
(11:34):
it's all about um fostering independence and creativity and children
and not restricting them. So UM I like a good
feral running around child. You know I had a similar childhood.
I even though it's hard to imagine, I grew up
on a dirt road with three girls across the four
(11:59):
girls directly next door. There was a fence between us
with a gate, and my sister and I and those
four girls, the Keith girls. We were a mob and
you know, nobody knew where we were, what we were doing, nobody.
There was none of that micromanagement. Um, as you said,
(12:21):
you know, maybe we'd be able to watch the Brady
Bunch maybe, or or you know, that was sort of
the extent of it, or maybe Sunday morning cartoons. Other
than that you were out of the house, and so
it was always a very free time. And so I
relate to that. Um I guess what I'm asking is
(12:46):
what did you like? When did you start? I mean,
you said you had a close family, But when did
you start or did you finding that friendships brought something
new in different a different perspective, a different point of view.
I think when I started realizing that you don't have
(13:08):
to get along with everybody. You know, we were raised
to get along with everyone, and like the first time
I knew someone didn't like me, or when I realized
I didn't enjoy being around them, And to the opposite
of that, those that I really felt so good after
having spent time with them and just noticing the difference
(13:30):
that we're not all going to get along and you
don't always have to you know, like everybody or I
don't know that makes sense, of course it makes sense. Um,
that's called individual ation. That's how people create who they are.
It's you know, you start to say, this is what
(13:52):
I like, this is what I don't like, um in
clothing and music and food and friends, and you know,
it's how we start to go this is me. And
the way we go this is me is I like
this music, and I like that color, and I like
to eat this and I and then you find other
people and you go, oh, you like Joni Mitchell. Oh,
(14:14):
I love Joni Mitchell. And then and then you killed
the beginning of a friendship. And you married young, and
you have two boys, and you know, you were living
I would call it a fairly traditional life. Your husband
is a postal worker, you live in Oklahoma City, you
(14:37):
have two sons. You're part of a church really brought
there by one of your sons, right more than the other. Um,
and the community of that church and the fun and friendships.
And I'm assuming you had friends in that church, and yeah, yeah,
(14:57):
we were very active and long lasting relationships during that time.
There something don't already yet. I know I'll get if
I'm a good friend. We'll be right back with more
good friend after this quick break. So stick around, don't already,
and we'll get it. I'm a good friend. Don't already.
(15:21):
I know, I'll get it. I'm a good friend. So
what's interesting to me and obviously is the sort of
seed of our friendship and how we started to get
to know each other. We're just still getting to know
each other. We haven't been able to spend as much time,
and there've been interruptions, and you know that we're way
out of our control. COVID, COVID, hate that COVID. But
(15:47):
what happened is that how old was Parker when Parker
finally told you that he was gay? He's one when
he came out officially and took a stand as a
gay man. Okay, And there was a period. I don't
need I am We're not here to sort of rehash
(16:08):
the whole story, rest to give context to my listener.
So that Um, they understand, you know, sort of what
this how the how the seed was planted. So your
son Parker that I was going to say the elder,
but he's not the elder, he's the younger, he's the baby. Yeah,
(16:29):
um declared that he was a gay man. And based
on your religion and your community and the teachings and um,
that interpretation of the word of God, and um, certainly
the word of a very punishing, restrictive, non affirming God,
(16:58):
it caused and created a terrible breach and break in
your family. Yes, it did. It was devastating, without question,
and UM, I'm sure obviously very complicated and involves a
much bigger exploration than than we're going to necessarily have
(17:21):
the time. And and it's not the intention of the
podcast is to this is I'm not I'm not an
investigative journalist and reill you on these questions. But I
guess what I'm going for is the friendships that you
had made in that church when you started to really
listen to your son and really question the the unfairness
(17:51):
of it. The wait a minute, I have to reject
my child because you say that God said like it
just didn't. There was a point there was a breaking
point for you. Yes, yes, okay, the people that you
were friends within that community. Did you get to continue
(18:14):
a relationship with any of those people? No? Um. At
the beginning, I think we were just cordial to each other. Um.
But you know, over time you just alienated yourself from
each other. And now I may I might talk to
one person through social media, but no, no. Wow. So
(18:36):
the friends that you have made, and you have made
friends all over the world with the organization called and
I want my listener to know this Free mom Hugs
dot org. Because what Sarah Cunningham did besides raise her
hand and say I will come to your wedding and
(18:58):
I will be your stand in mom, Sarah Cunningham joined
with other mama bears who are mothers of gay children,
and they go to parades and celebrations Gay Pride parades
and celebrations and gatherings and they offer free mom hugs.
(19:22):
They stand there with their arms open. And for so
many people whose lives were put into the deep freeze
of shame and isolation and sad, sad rejection from their families,
(19:43):
the idea that there's this group of mama bears led
by you Sarah Cunningham who opened their arms and say
come here, I'm going to give you a big free
mom hug. The amount of people and friendships that you
have made within that community all over the world. Um,
(20:05):
that's a whole different level of friendship, and I'd love
for you to talk a little bit about it. Yes, well,
I have been fortunate to be surrounded by by many
people wonderful and unique in their own right. Um, but
I think the friendships that you're talking about, I don't
want to say, um, shallow, but there's only a dynamic
(20:25):
a part of me that they know and unless they've read,
you know, the book Sarah's book, which is called How
We Sleep at Night, by the way, is a book
that Sarah published, a mother's memoir. It's beautiful. Yeah, and
I was very transparent there and a lot of people
that know about free mom hugs are a standard mom
They don't have any idea about the book and so
(20:47):
they just know about They have no idea that the
struggle that I had with coming to terms of having
a gay soon going from the tolerating, if you will,
to celebrating him and getting involved with the community. So
there's there's a side of me that the average volunteer
or mom or chapter leader knows about me, and UM,
(21:11):
it's almost like an imposter syndrome because if they, if
they just you know, give me great accolades or just
think that I'm so strong and so, you know, I
don't know being a founder of a nonprofit that's that's
going international soon, that that I just have it all together,
(21:31):
and I don't you know, I'm a founder of Free
mom Hugs and UM. I've googled founder syndrome at least
twenty seven times since then because I want to be
a good founder. I want to be a good UM
leader or a a role model, if you will. But the
truth is I have people around me who know how
to run a nonprofit and I may be the face
(21:52):
of it, have the heart for it, and started the
spark for it. But UM, the dynamic of a personal
life with that many much like you, You have fans
that follow you and from all around the world that um,
but they don't they don't know the intimate parts of
you are the tender parts of few or just you know, yeah,
(22:13):
I do know the tender underbelly, that's soft underbelly, not
the the external shell of I'm a warrior, and I'm
a proud advocate, fierce advocate and stand up against oppression
and bigotry and you know, homophobia and and and and
(22:38):
and and um. But I guess what I'm I mean.
I know Katrina is a close friend of yours. Um,
And do you I mean you and Rex are close friends.
He's your best friend. I'm guessing yes, absolutely, And so
you bring him a lot of stuff. But I I
(23:00):
guess it's simply to ask what are the qualities that
you that you bring to a good friend, Like what
separates just a friend with a good friend with you?
I think just being transparent. Where for example, Katrina and
I we worked together. We've gone through COVID together. You know,
(23:21):
we we stayed I don't want sheltered in place, not
necessarily together, but we were the only people that we
were around outside of our significant others. And but she
knows everything everything. She can write a blog from my perspective,
and the average person would probably think I wrote the blog.
And we have that synchronicity where we can uh just
(23:42):
be lighthearted and have fun and laugh and you know,
just tear each other up. But there's a serious side too.
She knows the underbelly, you know, and um, but I
appreciate her so much. And there's but there's things that
I take to Rex that I mean, obviously Katrina wouldn't know,
but I did pend on Rex to be um, you know,
(24:03):
to just call me out and to be honest with me,
even if it's brutally honest. But I think I'm a
serious friend. I like to have fun. I like to laugh. Um,
I have great ideas, grandiose ideas, and they don't always
come to fruition. But boy, we had a lot of fun.
So yeah, I'm I can be pretty serious, but I
(24:23):
can have a lot of fun too. I like to
laugh out loud. Yeah in your cheep. Yes, I love
my jeep. I told my husband when he gave it,
when he got it for me, I said, if it's
the last car I ever get, I'm happy. I'm happy.
If this is the last car I ever get, I
don't want to ever not drive it. I look forward
to driving it. I understand, I know, I know, you know. Yeah,
(24:48):
I've been in it. I've watched you drive. I've survived.
I've survived a tour in that very deep I'm getive.
I'm a good friend. We'll be right back with more
good friend after this quick break a good friend. I also,
(25:14):
I'm gonna bring up something really sad, dear mine. No Um,
but it's sad, of course because it involves death. But
it also is triumphant um because it involves love. Yes, Um,
(25:38):
your sister, Um, who you dropped everything in your life,
all of your work, your other parts of your family, responsibilities,
and you who was dying of cancer. Um, you went
and bore witness you. There's a beautiful essay by a
(26:05):
woman named Debbie Hall in UM. I'll send it to you,
Sarah in the program this I believe. It's a podcast
I think you can get and Debbie Hall I heard
it once at Christmas time many years ago, and it's
called I Believe in the Power of Presence. That the
(26:29):
act of presence is such a it's such a powerful
act of bearing witness to someone else's experience. So often
we want to ameliorate it, we want to fix it,
we want to ease it, we want to push it,
(26:51):
we want to do this, or we want to do that.
And the power of presence that you gave your sister,
this simple connection with her was something that you shared
with some loving friends. I was proud to kind of
(27:12):
go on that journey with you. But I want to
talk about her, m h. Because if that isn't the
definition of a good friend, I'm not sure what is. Yeah, well,
thank you her. She's my older sister. UM my mother
had a family of five, so she was oftentimes left
alone with us when my mother worked, and she she
(27:34):
practically raised us. And I adored her since you know,
she was my sister, and anywhere she would go and
she got her license, I would always go with her.
And she even saved my life on a couple of
a couple of occasions, and so we have always been close.
(27:55):
And so when she was diagnosed with breath cancer, I
remember the day she called me and told me I
remember where I was. And I instantly started grieving right then,
right then and there. And she lived about two years
after her diagnosis, near the end. Um I wanted to
go see her, and we thought she just would have
(28:17):
a couple of weeks left because by this time hospice
had been contacted and we're making arrangements to you know,
get that set up. And so I went to stay
with her, thinking it was just gonna be two weeks. Well,
she got a little better when she was able to
be comfortable and eat a little bit, and she ended
up living another three months. So I stayed with her,
(28:37):
and I'm so glad that I had that time. But
I was very transparent sharing on my social media pages
about it because part of me I didn't know whether
I wanted to do that, because it's gonna come up
as a Facebook memory now and so I have to.
You know, you're gonna have to see that every year,
and you know, it's still still like a wound. This
grief is just a there's some thing about it, like
(29:01):
I think of it like strikes, like lightning. It it's
so loud and so I don't know the words to explain,
but imagine getting striked by lightning. It stops you in
your tracks. But there's something energetic about it that you think,
this is life, and it's the energy of grief and
(29:23):
loving and just being able to be a part of
that and walk alongside. And it's hard and it's sweet,
and but it's an energy that that we just don't
talk about very much. And that's why I think we're
so devastated when it's happened. It happens because we don't
talk about it, and so it was a beautiful experience.
(29:46):
I miss her dearly every day. And but I do
remember something that you said early on in our relationship
that um and I don't know if if it's a
quote from you or something that you picked up along
the way, but living life on life's terms, and I
think about that a lot, because life, we don't have
(30:08):
any control over it at all. We don't have control
over anything. No, you're while you're right about anything except ourselves,
except our own actions, our own deeds, our own intentions,
our own ways of expressing ourselves in the universe. That's
the only thing we actually can control. Life on life's
(30:29):
terms is a recovery phrase. Because we're asking people to
abstain from medication, from alcohol or drugs. You're saying, we
are going to remove that from your life. You're you're
going to remove that. You're going to abstain from drinking
(30:49):
or taking drugs. And you may have strength and feel
really confident and in your body and in your feet
on a beautiful sunny day when you're eating a protein
bar and you know and you're gonna exercise and you're
going to do this, and then you're gonna meditate, and
then you're going to try to rest, and but you
(31:10):
know life is going to happen to you. Um, something
is going to There's going to be a day where
everything is going to go wrong at the same time,
and all of the feelings that you used to that
used to be helped by drugs and alcohol are going
(31:33):
to come flooding back at you. And you have to
be ready to know that it's life on life's terms.
You're going to have terrible days as a sober person.
Horrible things are going to befall you and or a
family member. It is the way of the universe, life
on a life's terms, not our terms. Yeah, but that
(31:56):
that's really helped me a lot, And I'm happy because
it isn't exclusive to recovery. It was. It was articulated
through that because people who are in recovery no longer
have the medicine to take when they're feeling terrible, when
(32:20):
they're super sad, or when they're super happy, like the
none of the natural ways that most people look at
celebrating or or grief taking. You're removing the thing that
would actually physically make you feel it would relax you
or would comfort you. We think it's going to comfort us,
(32:43):
it doesn't. Um. And so it is a way of
sort of saying life on life's terms, is a way
of just accepting things as they are. And I also
like the phrase, you know, people have their turn in
the barrel. Um. And I have a the young woman
(33:05):
who helps me her family right now, it's their turning
the barrel. It's a bad time, it's a hard time,
it's a harsh time, it's a it's a brutal time,
involves health and stuff. And you know, but everyone gets
in the barrel. Everyone there's not a person alive. If
(33:25):
you're human, you've been in the barrel. And it's great
to have friends when you when you come out of
the barrel and there and there they are, um um.
And I know I know how your sister felt when
(33:46):
she would open her eyes and there you were. Because
and and you know, it's called good friend. It's not
called good sister podcast. It's called a good friend podcast.
I mean interview friends. I haven't you know, maybe the
next season I will interview my family because they're my friends.
(34:08):
But in that example with you, I found the best
qualities of a good friend. Um, you know, generosity and
telepathy and the things we've started to hear on this podcast,
kind of trust. There's a simplicity to it. You just
(34:30):
you just everything dwindells down to comfort, basic needs, just companionship.
And UM, I know we haven't mentioned it, and I'm
not trying to, you know, glorify anything but your nonprofit.
With my hand and yours. What a simple gesture. What
a simple thing, and even in hugs, it's so simple,
(34:54):
yet it gives so much, not only to the receiver
but to the giver. See And I think that's the
essence of humanity. And I learned another word from you,
Uban too. I am because of you. You are because
of me, And what affects you affects me, and what
(35:16):
what concerns you ought to concern me? And I want
to talk about one more thing because today you just
keep talking. I went to the post office and I
noticed that the flags were at half mass, and I thought,
why are they at half mass? So I googled you
know you can google that thing, and it said because, um,
the President ordered that the flags be at half staff
(35:37):
today in order to recognize and honor the Asian the
violence that's been brought along to the Asian community, and
my heart's I mean, my heart is just broken for
that community. When I heard about what was happening, my
heart just sank. But to have a president or a
(35:58):
man in such authority to be so empathetic and to
cause the world to stop and lower that flag, that's
the kind of world that I want to live in.
That's the part of humanity that calls I don't know
the president, I don't know his middle name. Maybe I
do all that to say. The ripple effect of that
(36:20):
of compassion and being visible with it and being vocal
with it and bringing in it. It's inspiring and it
causes people to stop and think about what's happening. And
I think that's the essence of humanity, of life. And
I think that's when we just get it, even if
(36:43):
it's just for a moment at the post office parking lot.
I got it and then I have to go along
about my way. But it was a moment, but it's
still with me, and now it's with you because I
shared it, see well, And that how we met, and
(37:04):
that's how free mom Hugs was born. And that's how
you raised your hand and said I will do this. Um.
It was how in the same way that your son
(37:25):
was able to say this is who I am, and yes,
suffered for it and and then healed from that suffering
and now has continued to help amplify it. You that
(37:50):
change in you that you just said, you gave it
to me and I received it just now, that message,
and I was aware that that had happened with the flag. Um,
that it's the way we share things. That's what friendship is. Ultimately,
not to kind of bring it back to friendship, but
you know what you've been talking about is friendship, whether
(38:13):
or not. Um. You said the word friend in every
word that you were describing about what it made you
feel and what you hope the universe can be the
America you want to live in. Yeah, an inclusive America
that recognizes people for their inherent human nous rather than
(38:41):
sexual orientation or the color of their skin, or their
or or their religious beliefs, or their outfits or their hair,
or their music they listen to or whatever. It is.
The way we separate everyone that when you just open
(39:01):
your heart to people. UM. Friends, family, your beautiful sister,
your brother, your son's, your community, your friends around the world,
Katrina me. It just you in that parking lot at
the post office. M hmm. Will Now, as you said,
(39:26):
the ripple effect that my listener will tell someone else
about it. That that's how this all goes. And and
if we're lucky to have someone like you be with
us at the end of our lives, we will be
able to complete that circle and say I'm going to go.
(39:47):
Now you carry on, You carry on for me. You
know I will go, and then you'll go, and then
they'll carry on for you. And that's how the circle
of life. Welcome to the Circle of Live podcast, everybody.
So I'm I am just beyond grateful that you would
(40:08):
come and talk the Good Friend Podcast and share your
depth and um, your heart and your spirit um and
we are all better for it. And I love you
and God bless you. Thank you for being a good friend,
Thank you for being on the podcast. To the listener, um,
(40:28):
if you're still listening, God bless you, and stay safe
and that's it. Good Friend is produced by Dylan Fagin
(40:51):
and is a production of My Heart Radio. Our theme
song good Friend is written, produced, and performed by Emily King.
Don't already I know I'll get it from a good friend.
(41:11):
Because something I need don't already I know I'll get
it from a good friend. For more podcasts from my
heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast,
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
If something doing already, I know I'll get if I'm
a good friend. Hi, everybody, it's Jamie Lee Curtis. You're
listening to the Good Friend Podcast, presented to you by
I Heart Radio. It's a podcast about friendship, sort of
(00:24):
the good, the bad, and the ugly, the triumphs of friendship,
the immense connection and emotion of friendship, the laughter and
occasionally the tears. We explore it all in an unscripted,
very free form way with many, many different guests, some
(00:44):
I'm very close friends with, some I've never met. And
I hope that you will take away from it something
that connects you to your friends, and that the ideas
that we talk about can maybe be taken into your
own friendships. So sit back, or take a walk, or
however you listen. I hope you enjoy it and stay tuned.
(01:05):
Don't already and the laudative and the good friend friend
if you could only see me, which you can't because
it's a podcast, but I have a smile kind of
ear to ear um my friends. Sarah Cunningham has agreed
(01:26):
to talk about friendship here, and I welcome you, Sarah,
Thank you, my friend, my good friend, Sarah Cunningham lives
in Oklahoma. I live in California. You might wonder how
we know each other. I'm going to tell you just
two for the uninitiated listener. Um, I think we may
(01:51):
have one listener, Sarah, and knowing your family, we have
eight um listeners. So so Sarah cunning Him. I met
because Sarah Cunningham did something that has changed the world. Um.
I met Sarah because I saw a Facebook post that
(02:12):
Sarah put up into the world that basically said, if
you are a same sex married getting married in a
same sex wedding and your biological parents, your biological family
do not support you, that she would show up as
a stand in mom um, and that I believe you
(02:36):
said you'd even bring the bubbles. Yes, that's true. I
met the kind that you blow and that goes out
in the air. But some people say, where's this champaigne.
It's okay, it can be champagne bubbles, that can be
the kind you blow and the little thing like a child,
And it was such a declaration of strength, community, spect, courage, steadfastness.
(03:05):
I'm closing my eyes and trying to think of words
that pop into my head about that action. That action
that you took. You took an action, you took a decision.
You didn't make the decision, you took it, and you
raised your hand. And it then, of course exploded. It went,
(03:27):
as the kids say, a little viral. And I saw it,
and I saw it not once but twice. It had
made its way into my phone and I cold called
Sarah Cunningham. I believe it's called Facebook stalking or Twitter stalking.
(03:48):
I do a lot of that, apparently, And Um, I
sent her a d M. I slid into her d
M s and as the kids say, and I sent
term message and with my telephone number. UM, and that
began then a relationship of friendship, a collaboration, and a friendship,
(04:14):
a real friendship. UM. And so that's how we know
each other, and that's how we will continue to know
each other for the rest of our lives, because once
you meet this woman, UM, you don't let go of her. Um.
Were you always like that in friendships? Are you that
(04:36):
type of person? Yes? Yes, I invest all of myself
into a relationship sometime to my to your detriment, yes,
thank you, sor right, Well, I've I've never had too
many friends. I've been very social person. But I have, um,
some very good friends you could probably count on one hand.
(04:58):
And so of them make me laugh, some of them
call me out. Some of them, Um, just like everything
I do, I can do no wrong. And um, some
of them I gleaned from and admire greatly and just
learn they might be out of my caliber. And I
mean that respectfully. But um, it's just kind of a
(05:22):
diversity of friends. I say. I guess. So when you
were little where were you raised? Oklahoma City? And you
made friends easily? You do you still have friends from
when you were very young? Yes? I have one very
dear friend, Cindy Lewis. She lives in Colorado. She has
(05:42):
beautiful red hair, and we talk um a lot. And
she's the one that can make me laugh. She can
like she'll call and I'll pick up the phone and
say hello, and she'll say girl, and it just makes
me laugh. We can be together and not even say
the word and her expressions just cracked me up. And
(06:03):
I just loved her. She I know, I'm always going
to laugh with Cindy. And how and you met in
when you were in little school? Yes, Um, I didn't
have any friends, but I do have brothers. Siblings. We
all kind of went to the school about the same time.
And um, he was he's very handsome, So most of
the time I made friends that wanted to get close
(06:25):
to him, if that makes sense. They would have a
crush on him, but think, oh, I'll just hang out
with his sister and maybe I can go over to
their house and hang out with him instead. So there's
a lot of that going on. And I didn't have
a lot of self confidence. I didn't do very well
in school. We struggled financially as a family, we moved
around a lot, So there's a lot of insecurities in
(06:48):
my life young for most of my school years and um, yeah,
and in high school, when did you meet your husband? Well,
I was best friends with his sister, and I didn't
(07:09):
even really notice him until she invited me to dinner
with his family with her family, and I happened to
set at the table directly across from him, and it's
the first time I really noticed him. And I was
probably maybe fifteen at the time, and he had this beautiful,
feathered hair and the biggest brown eyes you ever saw,
(07:32):
and he was just charming, and I just I loved
him right then and there, and but he didn't really
notice me until later when we were in a swimming
pool and I was varied a two piece bathing suit.
That's then it was on and that was it. That
(07:52):
was it. Do you still have that bathing suit? No,
but I have pictures of it. You might need to
share that, not with the not with my listener, but
with me, and you can, d M. I will. And
when you say you were best friends with his sister,
are you still friends with his sister? Yes? Yeah, she Um,
(08:14):
she's a great aunt. She's been very involved in in
our children's life. And uh, we get together frequently. And yeah,
and M, what did you take to your friends? You
know people take things to friends certain people. Was there
a specific I don't know, situation or situations that you
(08:41):
would take to her your best friend? Yes, you know,
you know you've heard of love languages and how some
people they're tokens of love. Our our gift givings. I
think you're a gift giver. You just pick out the
most unique gifts. And but I've always been terrible at that,
(09:01):
always second guess the gift, or I think maybe they
won't like it or something. I always second think, guess it.
So I'm not a gift giver, but I have been
known to just be kind of eccentric in the way
of old, like I don't know what a memory just
popped in my head. If I may share it? No, no, no, no,
(09:23):
we we edit nothing. We This is a free flowing conversation.
All right, Well, I'm going to share it all. Not
many people have heard this story. Growing up, we had
the neighborhood you know, friends and we would always hang out.
And that's before TV, cell phones all the rest. And
we would get up a daylight and mom would have
(09:44):
to call us in at ten o'clock. And always before
the day was over and it was time to go home,
I would always ask my friends, well, well I see
you tomorrow. What time will you be out? You know,
I always wanted to interact with friends. So we had
this group of neighborhood kids and we would always all
running around. We'd play hide and seek, we would play tag,
I mean in the big field. Well, one day we
(10:06):
decided to go underground, you know the rain catches, and
there they're huge drums underneath the ground that take all
the rain water. Okay, we we went down in that
in that gully, and there was probably four of us,
not many, and all the boys had their shirt off,
and I was the only girl. And I, you know,
(10:28):
I was probably I don't know, maybe eight or nine,
and him I was so flat chested. Guess what I
took off my shirt. I took off my shirt. I
think it had gotten wet. We all were went from
under there, you know. But they didn't care what they weren't.
They didn't care. Nobody cared, you know. And so that's
the kind of friendships I had growing up, where there
(10:49):
was no pressure or I don't know. It was just
a wonderful childhood in the sense, in that sense, we're
are heathens, is what it was. We were heathen by
the way we were. All children are heathens, but fair.
But children on some level are heathens and feral if
(11:11):
they haven't been so conditioned to restrict their natural impulses. UM.
I raised my um second child under a program called
RYE Resources for Infant Edge to Cares are i E
started by a woman named Magda Gerber. And you know
(11:34):
it's all about um fostering independence and creativity and children
and not restricting them. So UM I like a good
feral running around child. You know I had a similar childhood.
I even though it's hard to imagine, I grew up
on a dirt road with three girls across the four
(11:59):
girls directly next door. There was a fence between us
with a gate, and my sister and I and those
four girls, the Keith girls. We were a mob and
you know, nobody knew where we were, what we were doing, nobody.
There was none of that micromanagement. Um, as you said,
(12:21):
you know, maybe we'd be able to watch the Brady
Bunch maybe, or or you know, that was sort of
the extent of it, or maybe Sunday morning cartoons. Other
than that you were out of the house, and so
it was always a very free time. And so I
relate to that. Um I guess what I'm asking is
(12:46):
what did you like? When did you start? I mean,
you said you had a close family, But when did
you start or did you finding that friendships brought something
new in different a different perspective, a different point of view.
I think when I started realizing that you don't have
(13:08):
to get along with everybody. You know, we were raised
to get along with everyone, and like the first time
I knew someone didn't like me, or when I realized
I didn't enjoy being around them, And to the opposite
of that, those that I really felt so good after
having spent time with them and just noticing the difference
(13:30):
that we're not all going to get along and you
don't always have to you know, like everybody or I
don't know that makes sense, of course it makes sense. Um,
that's called individual ation. That's how people create who they are.
It's you know, you start to say, this is what
(13:52):
I like, this is what I don't like, um in
clothing and music and food and friends, and you know,
it's how we start to go this is me. And
the way we go this is me is I like
this music, and I like that color, and I like
to eat this and I and then you find other
people and you go, oh, you like Joni Mitchell. Oh,
(14:14):
I love Joni Mitchell. And then and then you killed
the beginning of a friendship. And you married young, and
you have two boys, and you know, you were living
I would call it a fairly traditional life. Your husband
is a postal worker, you live in Oklahoma City, you
(14:37):
have two sons. You're part of a church really brought
there by one of your sons, right more than the other. Um,
and the community of that church and the fun and friendships.
And I'm assuming you had friends in that church, and yeah, yeah,
(14:57):
we were very active and long lasting relationships during that time.
There something don't already yet. I know I'll get if
I'm a good friend. We'll be right back with more
good friend after this quick break. So stick around, don't already,
and we'll get it. I'm a good friend. Don't already.
(15:21):
I know, I'll get it. I'm a good friend. So
what's interesting to me and obviously is the sort of
seed of our friendship and how we started to get
to know each other. We're just still getting to know
each other. We haven't been able to spend as much time,
and there've been interruptions, and you know that we're way
out of our control. COVID, COVID, hate that COVID. But
(15:47):
what happened is that how old was Parker when Parker
finally told you that he was gay? He's one when
he came out officially and took a stand as a
gay man. Okay, And there was a period. I don't
need I am We're not here to sort of rehash
(16:08):
the whole story, rest to give context to my listener.
So that Um, they understand, you know, sort of what
this how the how the seed was planted. So your
son Parker that I was going to say the elder,
but he's not the elder, he's the younger, he's the baby. Yeah,
(16:29):
um declared that he was a gay man. And based
on your religion and your community and the teachings and um,
that interpretation of the word of God, and um, certainly
the word of a very punishing, restrictive, non affirming God,
(16:58):
it caused and created a terrible breach and break in
your family. Yes, it did. It was devastating, without question,
and UM, I'm sure obviously very complicated and involves a
much bigger exploration than than we're going to necessarily have
(17:21):
the time. And and it's not the intention of the
podcast is to this is I'm not I'm not an
investigative journalist and reill you on these questions. But I
guess what I'm going for is the friendships that you
had made in that church when you started to really
listen to your son and really question the the unfairness
(17:51):
of it. The wait a minute, I have to reject
my child because you say that God said like it
just didn't. There was a point there was a breaking
point for you. Yes, yes, okay, the people that you
were friends within that community. Did you get to continue
(18:14):
a relationship with any of those people? No? Um. At
the beginning, I think we were just cordial to each other. Um.
But you know, over time you just alienated yourself from
each other. And now I may I might talk to
one person through social media, but no, no. Wow. So
(18:36):
the friends that you have made, and you have made
friends all over the world with the organization called and
I want my listener to know this Free mom Hugs
dot org. Because what Sarah Cunningham did besides raise her
hand and say I will come to your wedding and
(18:58):
I will be your stand in mom, Sarah Cunningham joined
with other mama bears who are mothers of gay children,
and they go to parades and celebrations Gay Pride parades
and celebrations and gatherings and they offer free mom hugs.
(19:22):
They stand there with their arms open. And for so
many people whose lives were put into the deep freeze
of shame and isolation and sad, sad rejection from their families,
(19:43):
the idea that there's this group of mama bears led
by you Sarah Cunningham who opened their arms and say
come here, I'm going to give you a big free
mom hug. The amount of people and friendships that you
have made within that community all over the world. Um,
(20:05):
that's a whole different level of friendship, and I'd love
for you to talk a little bit about it. Yes, well,
I have been fortunate to be surrounded by by many
people wonderful and unique in their own right. Um, but
I think the friendships that you're talking about, I don't
want to say, um, shallow, but there's only a dynamic
(20:25):
a part of me that they know and unless they've read,
you know, the book Sarah's book, which is called How
We Sleep at Night, by the way, is a book
that Sarah published, a mother's memoir. It's beautiful. Yeah, and
I was very transparent there and a lot of people
that know about free mom hugs are a standard mom
They don't have any idea about the book and so
(20:47):
they just know about They have no idea that the
struggle that I had with coming to terms of having
a gay soon going from the tolerating, if you will,
to celebrating him and getting involved with the community. So
there's there's a side of me that the average volunteer
or mom or chapter leader knows about me, and UM,
(21:11):
it's almost like an imposter syndrome because if they, if
they just you know, give me great accolades or just
think that I'm so strong and so, you know, I
don't know being a founder of a nonprofit that's that's
going international soon, that that I just have it all together,
(21:31):
and I don't you know, I'm a founder of Free
mom Hugs and UM. I've googled founder syndrome at least
twenty seven times since then because I want to be
a good founder. I want to be a good UM
leader or a a role model, if you will. But the
truth is I have people around me who know how
to run a nonprofit and I may be the face
(21:52):
of it, have the heart for it, and started the
spark for it. But UM, the dynamic of a personal
life with that many much like you, You have fans
that follow you and from all around the world that um,
but they don't they don't know the intimate parts of
you are the tender parts of few or just you know, yeah,
(22:13):
I do know the tender underbelly, that's soft underbelly, not
the the external shell of I'm a warrior, and I'm
a proud advocate, fierce advocate and stand up against oppression
and bigotry and you know, homophobia and and and and
(22:38):
and and um. But I guess what I'm I mean.
I know Katrina is a close friend of yours. Um,
And do you I mean you and Rex are close friends.
He's your best friend. I'm guessing yes, absolutely, And so
you bring him a lot of stuff. But I I
(23:00):
guess it's simply to ask what are the qualities that
you that you bring to a good friend, Like what
separates just a friend with a good friend with you?
I think just being transparent. Where for example, Katrina and
I we worked together. We've gone through COVID together. You know,
(23:21):
we we stayed I don't want sheltered in place, not
necessarily together, but we were the only people that we
were around outside of our significant others. And but she
knows everything everything. She can write a blog from my perspective,
and the average person would probably think I wrote the blog.
And we have that synchronicity where we can uh just
(23:42):
be lighthearted and have fun and laugh and you know,
just tear each other up. But there's a serious side too.
She knows the underbelly, you know, and um, but I
appreciate her so much. And there's but there's things that
I take to Rex that I mean, obviously Katrina wouldn't know,
but I did pend on Rex to be um, you know,
(24:03):
to just call me out and to be honest with me,
even if it's brutally honest. But I think I'm a
serious friend. I like to have fun. I like to laugh. Um,
I have great ideas, grandiose ideas, and they don't always
come to fruition. But boy, we had a lot of fun.
So yeah, I'm I can be pretty serious, but I
(24:23):
can have a lot of fun too. I like to
laugh out loud. Yeah in your cheep. Yes, I love
my jeep. I told my husband when he gave it,
when he got it for me, I said, if it's
the last car I ever get, I'm happy. I'm happy.
If this is the last car I ever get, I
don't want to ever not drive it. I look forward
to driving it. I understand, I know, I know, you know. Yeah,
(24:48):
I've been in it. I've watched you drive. I've survived.
I've survived a tour in that very deep I'm getive.
I'm a good friend. We'll be right back with more
good friend after this quick break a good friend. I also,
(25:14):
I'm gonna bring up something really sad, dear mine. No Um,
but it's sad, of course because it involves death. But
it also is triumphant um because it involves love. Yes, Um,
(25:38):
your sister, Um, who you dropped everything in your life,
all of your work, your other parts of your family, responsibilities,
and you who was dying of cancer. Um, you went
and bore witness you. There's a beautiful essay by a
(26:05):
woman named Debbie Hall in UM. I'll send it to you,
Sarah in the program this I believe. It's a podcast
I think you can get and Debbie Hall I heard
it once at Christmas time many years ago, and it's
called I Believe in the Power of Presence. That the
(26:29):
act of presence is such a it's such a powerful
act of bearing witness to someone else's experience. So often
we want to ameliorate it, we want to fix it,
we want to ease it, we want to push it,
(26:51):
we want to do this, or we want to do that.
And the power of presence that you gave your sister,
this simple connection with her was something that you shared
with some loving friends. I was proud to kind of
(27:12):
go on that journey with you. But I want to
talk about her, m h. Because if that isn't the
definition of a good friend, I'm not sure what is. Yeah, well,
thank you her. She's my older sister. UM my mother
had a family of five, so she was oftentimes left
alone with us when my mother worked, and she she
(27:34):
practically raised us. And I adored her since you know,
she was my sister, and anywhere she would go and
she got her license, I would always go with her.
And she even saved my life on a couple of
a couple of occasions, and so we have always been close.
(27:55):
And so when she was diagnosed with breath cancer, I
remember the day she called me and told me I
remember where I was. And I instantly started grieving right then,
right then and there. And she lived about two years
after her diagnosis, near the end. Um I wanted to
go see her, and we thought she just would have
(28:17):
a couple of weeks left because by this time hospice
had been contacted and we're making arrangements to you know,
get that set up. And so I went to stay
with her, thinking it was just gonna be two weeks. Well,
she got a little better when she was able to
be comfortable and eat a little bit, and she ended
up living another three months. So I stayed with her,
(28:37):
and I'm so glad that I had that time. But
I was very transparent sharing on my social media pages
about it because part of me I didn't know whether
I wanted to do that, because it's gonna come up
as a Facebook memory now and so I have to.
You know, you're gonna have to see that every year,
and you know, it's still still like a wound. This
grief is just a there's some thing about it, like
(29:01):
I think of it like strikes, like lightning. It it's
so loud and so I don't know the words to explain,
but imagine getting striked by lightning. It stops you in
your tracks. But there's something energetic about it that you think,
this is life, and it's the energy of grief and
(29:23):
loving and just being able to be a part of
that and walk alongside. And it's hard and it's sweet,
and but it's an energy that that we just don't
talk about very much. And that's why I think we're
so devastated when it's happened. It happens because we don't
talk about it, and so it was a beautiful experience.
(29:46):
I miss her dearly every day. And but I do
remember something that you said early on in our relationship
that um and I don't know if if it's a
quote from you or something that you picked up along
the way, but living life on life's terms, and I
think about that a lot, because life, we don't have
(30:08):
any control over it at all. We don't have control
over anything. No, you're while you're right about anything except ourselves,
except our own actions, our own deeds, our own intentions,
our own ways of expressing ourselves in the universe. That's
the only thing we actually can control. Life on life's
(30:29):
terms is a recovery phrase. Because we're asking people to
abstain from medication, from alcohol or drugs. You're saying, we
are going to remove that from your life. You're you're
going to remove that. You're going to abstain from drinking
(30:49):
or taking drugs. And you may have strength and feel
really confident and in your body and in your feet
on a beautiful sunny day when you're eating a protein
bar and you know and you're gonna exercise and you're
going to do this, and then you're gonna meditate, and
then you're going to try to rest, and but you
(31:10):
know life is going to happen to you. Um, something
is going to There's going to be a day where
everything is going to go wrong at the same time,
and all of the feelings that you used to that
used to be helped by drugs and alcohol are going
(31:33):
to come flooding back at you. And you have to
be ready to know that it's life on life's terms.
You're going to have terrible days as a sober person.
Horrible things are going to befall you and or a
family member. It is the way of the universe, life
on a life's terms, not our terms. Yeah, but that
(31:56):
that's really helped me a lot, And I'm happy because
it isn't exclusive to recovery. It was. It was articulated
through that because people who are in recovery no longer
have the medicine to take when they're feeling terrible, when
(32:20):
they're super sad, or when they're super happy, like the
none of the natural ways that most people look at
celebrating or or grief taking. You're removing the thing that
would actually physically make you feel it would relax you
or would comfort you. We think it's going to comfort us,
(32:43):
it doesn't. Um. And so it is a way of
sort of saying life on life's terms, is a way
of just accepting things as they are. And I also
like the phrase, you know, people have their turn in
the barrel. Um. And I have a the young woman
(33:05):
who helps me her family right now, it's their turning
the barrel. It's a bad time, it's a hard time,
it's a harsh time, it's a it's a brutal time,
involves health and stuff. And you know, but everyone gets
in the barrel. Everyone there's not a person alive. If
(33:25):
you're human, you've been in the barrel. And it's great
to have friends when you when you come out of
the barrel and there and there they are, um um.
And I know I know how your sister felt when
(33:46):
she would open her eyes and there you were. Because
and and you know, it's called good friend. It's not
called good sister podcast. It's called a good friend podcast.
I mean interview friends. I haven't you know, maybe the
next season I will interview my family because they're my friends.
(34:08):
But in that example with you, I found the best
qualities of a good friend. Um, you know, generosity and
telepathy and the things we've started to hear on this podcast,
kind of trust. There's a simplicity to it. You just
(34:30):
you just everything dwindells down to comfort, basic needs, just companionship.
And UM, I know we haven't mentioned it, and I'm
not trying to, you know, glorify anything but your nonprofit.
With my hand and yours. What a simple gesture. What
a simple thing, and even in hugs, it's so simple,
(34:54):
yet it gives so much, not only to the receiver
but to the giver. See And I think that's the
essence of humanity. And I learned another word from you,
Uban too. I am because of you. You are because
of me, And what affects you affects me, and what
(35:16):
what concerns you ought to concern me? And I want
to talk about one more thing because today you just
keep talking. I went to the post office and I
noticed that the flags were at half mass, and I thought,
why are they at half mass? So I googled you
know you can google that thing, and it said because, um,
the President ordered that the flags be at half staff
(35:37):
today in order to recognize and honor the Asian the
violence that's been brought along to the Asian community, and
my heart's I mean, my heart is just broken for
that community. When I heard about what was happening, my
heart just sank. But to have a president or a
(35:58):
man in such authority to be so empathetic and to
cause the world to stop and lower that flag, that's
the kind of world that I want to live in.
That's the part of humanity that calls I don't know
the president, I don't know his middle name. Maybe I
do all that to say. The ripple effect of that
(36:20):
of compassion and being visible with it and being vocal
with it and bringing in it. It's inspiring and it
causes people to stop and think about what's happening. And
I think that's the essence of humanity, of life. And
I think that's when we just get it, even if
(36:43):
it's just for a moment at the post office parking lot.
I got it and then I have to go along
about my way. But it was a moment, but it's
still with me, and now it's with you because I
shared it, see well, And that how we met, and
(37:04):
that's how free mom Hugs was born. And that's how
you raised your hand and said I will do this. Um.
It was how in the same way that your son
(37:25):
was able to say this is who I am, and yes,
suffered for it and and then healed from that suffering
and now has continued to help amplify it. You that
(37:50):
change in you that you just said, you gave it
to me and I received it just now, that message,
and I was aware that that had happened with the flag. Um,
that it's the way we share things. That's what friendship is. Ultimately,
not to kind of bring it back to friendship, but
you know what you've been talking about is friendship, whether
(38:13):
or not. Um. You said the word friend in every
word that you were describing about what it made you
feel and what you hope the universe can be the
America you want to live in. Yeah, an inclusive America
that recognizes people for their inherent human nous rather than
(38:41):
sexual orientation or the color of their skin, or their
or or their religious beliefs, or their outfits or their hair,
or their music they listen to or whatever. It is.
The way we separate everyone that when you just open
(39:01):
your heart to people. UM. Friends, family, your beautiful sister,
your brother, your son's, your community, your friends around the world,
Katrina me. It just you in that parking lot at
the post office. M hmm. Will Now, as you said,
(39:26):
the ripple effect that my listener will tell someone else
about it. That that's how this all goes. And and
if we're lucky to have someone like you be with
us at the end of our lives, we will be
able to complete that circle and say I'm going to go.
(39:47):
Now you carry on, You carry on for me. You
know I will go, and then you'll go, and then
they'll carry on for you. And that's how the circle
of life. Welcome to the Circle of Live podcast, everybody.
So I'm I am just beyond grateful that you would
(40:08):
come and talk the Good Friend Podcast and share your
depth and um, your heart and your spirit um and
we are all better for it. And I love you
and God bless you. Thank you for being a good friend,
Thank you for being on the podcast. To the listener, um,
(40:28):
if you're still listening, God bless you, and stay safe
and that's it. Good Friend is produced by Dylan Fagin
(40:51):
and is a production of My Heart Radio. Our theme
song good Friend is written, produced, and performed by Emily King.
Don't already I know I'll get it from a good friend.
(41:11):
Because something I need don't already I know I'll get
it from a good friend. For more podcasts from my
heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast,
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
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