January 1, 2025 • 40 mins
We’re revisiting some of our favorite interviews of 2024! Today, we hit play on Sarah’s conversation with recently retired WNBA hooper Layshia Clarendon. Lay joined Sarah to talk grieving his career while honoring themself and their stillness, being the first out trans player in the W, and the Finals series between two of her former teams.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to good Game of Sarah Spain where we're screaming
Happy Daly. It's Wednesday, January first, twenty twenty five. Holy shit.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Today we're running it back with Leijia Clarendon.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
They joined me back in October, not long after retiring
from the WNBA. We talked embracing this next phase of
his life, navigating identity and gender and pro sports, and
about the Kappy Engelbert CNBC interview that sparked conversations across
the league. That conversation's coming up right after this stick around.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
Joining us now.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
They played eleven seasons in the WNBA, were the first
openly non binary WNBA player and the first active WNBA
player to have top surgery. Former vice president of the
Players Association, she uses all the pronouns and is the
founder of the Laisa Clarendon Foundation. He played for the
Indiana Fever, the Atlanta Dream, the Connecticut Son, the New
York Liberty, the Minnesota Lynx, and the Los Angeles Sparks,
(01:07):
and is one of just four players in Sparks franchise
history to put up a triple double before announcing his
retirement at the end of this season.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
She's a proud Berkeley alum.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
She and her badass wife Jessica Clarendon are enjoying the
ups and downs of parenthood and we've both collected checks
from the Golden State Warriors despite never suiting up.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
It's Leisia Clarendon.
Speaker 3 (01:25):
What's up, Lasia, what's up? I love the I played
for half the league. That's like my favorite party I
really have.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
I think I'm saddest about your retirement because I wanted
to see if you could try to hit every team
and you had to get moving because the expansion teams
were going to make it a little tougher.
Speaker 3 (01:40):
Yeah, make it last.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
Fair, fair, fair fair.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
Also regarding the Golden State Warriors, I met Laisia for
the first time in person when we did a panel
for Women's History Month for the Warriors that they were
going to like do all this stuff with, and it
was so great to be flown out and spend time
with these incredibly brilliant people. And that's when I first
learned about your brilliance, Leasia. And then of course it
never ran because COVID hit and my husband always thought
it was funny though that I had to check from
(02:07):
the Warriors. He was like you got to frame that
and just say that You've got a couple of minutes
in garbage times.
Speaker 3 (02:12):
Seriously, that was a bummer because it was a really
dope just a group of people and it like, yeah,
never shared. I think about that like every.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
Now and Oh, such a good conversation.
Speaker 3 (02:22):
Floating somewhere in someone's you know, desktop storage.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
Let's talk retirement first. Congratulations eleven seasons in the w
You've only had a few weeks. But how's retirement treating
you so far?
Speaker 3 (02:34):
So far, It's amazing, no regrets, super at peace. I'm
enjoying like every minute of waking up and like making
my schedule whatever the what can we coust on here?
We definitely can. Oh hell yeah, okay, whatever the I
want it to be. I was like, I know it's you, Sarah,
so you guys. Ale, Yeah, just making my schedule whatever
I want it to be every day, which is lovely,
which is just you know, like getting your body back
(02:56):
from sports. So that's been like the most beautiful part
about it. It's like I don't have to train today.
I can just go for a walk, I could ride
my bike, I could do nothing.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
That's so relatable, Thank you, because I remember talking to
like Sue Bird and Megan Rapino, and they struggled a
bit more with that because they liked that part of
it eventually, but at the very beginning, the first few
days and weeks, they were like, wait, no one's telling
me what to do. What am I supposed to do?
If no one's telling me what to do and where
to be? And you're already past that, you're like, well,
on to like, Ooh, how nice. I don't have to
(03:26):
go for a run unless I want to.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
I choose what I want to do.
Speaker 3 (03:29):
I'm a Taurus and I love like opulence and luxury
and taking back. Okay, I love to cook, So I've
been cooking time, going to farmers Market every weekend.
Speaker 2 (03:40):
Oh what a dream.
Speaker 4 (03:41):
Yeah, that sounds so nice, eating my best life. You
said after retiring that you didn't want people to ask
you what's next.
Speaker 1 (03:52):
You wanted to really be in the moment and appreciate
what you've accomplished as a player.
Speaker 2 (03:57):
Have you been able to do that? I have.
Speaker 3 (03:58):
I was actually talking to my therapist about that, of one,
how to answer that question of just like figuring out
that I am really content right now, but the pressure
from the outside is that, Like people keep asking me
what's next? What do you want to do? And I'm
actually really content right now not knowing what's next and
really just being in this reflective mode, honestly being in
a deep amount of grief. Today it feels light, you,
(04:22):
thank God, as I'm on this podcast. But other days
it's just been heavy and I've just sobbed and cried,
and I've felt the heartbreak of like losing a part
of myself, of like grieving like this death of Lesia
Claren in the Basketball Player. And so I've really been
honoring myself, honoring my career. That's been something I've done
over a decade professionally, but also my entire life of
(04:44):
just being really in that space of like I did
something for a long time, and that's really beautiful. Yeah, hi, honey,
Oh my god.
Speaker 1 (04:53):
I love that we're getting a little bit of momhood
right here. Yeah, I hear a kiddo, we're definitely keeping
a little bit of that.
Speaker 2 (05:00):
And it's it's too cute, little pa.
Speaker 3 (05:02):
Just hear up the stairs.
Speaker 2 (05:05):
Yep. Okay.
Speaker 1 (05:06):
I love and hate the amount of introspection that retirement
from sports requires at a young age, because most people
whatever it is, that's their identity. They can usually do
it for a really long time unless something tragically takes
it away.
Speaker 2 (05:20):
A cook, a musician, even a dancer, they.
Speaker 1 (05:23):
Can kind of change the way their body moves, but
there's only certain opportunities to really participate at the highest
levels in sport, and that timeline is so short. Is
there a part of you that when you thought about
this coming down the pike, you had already started to
think about a change in identity and how you would
deal with it. Or are you finding that the finality
(05:44):
of it has has hit you in a way that
you know now you're having to process like what do
I want?
Speaker 2 (05:49):
And who am I? And what's next?
Speaker 3 (05:50):
Oh God, a little bit of bolt, I would say,
like I in twenty nineteen was one of my first
major injuries, and I'm really grateful Howard. I was playing
for the Connecticut sign I busted my ankle in practice
and I was out for three months, so just relatively
like short for a major surgery, like an injury. But
what that injury did was I was in therapy at
the time. It helped me start to examine my relationship
(06:12):
with basketball, and I couldn't believe basketball did that to me.
I was like, how could it let me down? How
could it? I've given it everything in my whole life,
and it's been the way I've coped and like it
just I felt mad at basketball and my therapist is like, oh,
let's talk about this more. And so I started to
examine the way I'm in relationship with basketball, and I
never thought about it that way, even though I've done
(06:34):
it my whole life. It's like my longest relationship with
my entire life. And so in that way, I I
would say the last five years have really prepared me
for the moment to retire now because I've done a
lot of work around my identity and around sport and
like restructuring my relationship to the game of basketball, and
I've healed quite a bit, and I think that's what
(06:55):
allowed me to be able to walk away and be like,
I know it's time. This year and the last years
I had just been wrestling with like right bodies moving slower,
like I'm healing. I could see some of the you know,
toxic parts of sports a little more than I could before.
I'm not using it to cope in the same way
I was because I feel, you know, worthy and enough,
so I'm not like doing these million tasks to like
(07:17):
prove to myself that I'm worthy. Like I was just
healing and now I could see the sport a lot differently,
and I still loved the game with all my heart,
but I was able to be like, all right, it's time,
and my body knows it's time. My spirit, yeah, all
of you was just like it's time and that's okay.
Speaker 1 (07:33):
You did such a panel at our espnW summit last
year with er fight Master and Nicky Hilts, talking about
trans participation in sports and gender and sport, and I
remember very distinctly you speaking to not only the responsibility
I think of people who identify as women in being
inclusive and in understanding how to embrace non binary and
(07:56):
trans people as part of the sort of larger effort
of women for quality, but also you spoke to how
sport played such a massive role in giving you a
space to feel the most yourself, which was wild because
it's one of the only truly gendered spaces we have.
Can you talk about that, because I wonder if part
(08:17):
of the reason you didn't need to cope using basketball
as much is because you had decided I know my identity.
I know who I am, and I don't need to
look for that in sport the same way as I
used to.
Speaker 3 (08:28):
Oh my god, yes I forget how good of an
interview you are. Yes, yes, I think that was part
of it, Like I just have done so much healing
and i've I don't need it, like you almost answered
the question for me. I all it felt walking away,
It felt like I completed, like I'm doing some handjest
or such a nancy, but like this full circle moment
(08:50):
or how people say I finished the chapter of a book,
or I think I might even finish that entire book,
and I think my life is going to be multiple books.
And it was just like wow, I turned the line
page and it's done, and that's okay. And when you
finish a really good book sometimes like you're sad because
you love the characters and what it made you feel
and how you belong and how you related to it
all the things, but it's okay because you finished the story.
(09:13):
And that's very much how my career feels. Is like
I feel the pain and the ache and I missed
the I already missed like my teammates and those interactions.
But I needed it to belong so much, and I
loved that I belonged, and I loved that sport gave me,
you know, an outlet for my competitiveness, for my fierceness.
(09:34):
It gave me all the coping tools to deal with
family drama. It gave me you know, tours around the world.
It gave me financial stability, and I'm just out of
place now with my family, with my sense of self,
with my healing, Even with all the work I've done
outside of sport, building my own brand and my own legacy,
(09:57):
I would say is like that all happened through sport,
But it's okay for me to like lay down the
basketball now that the playing part.
Speaker 1 (10:03):
Of it right, and you get to be your full
self everywhere instead of just getting to express parts of
yourself on the court and relying on that.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
Space to be included.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
You know, you and I have spoken over a number
of different years as you've been on this journey of
identification and self discovery, and you began publicly identifying as
nonsensegender back in twenty fifteen, but it wasn't n till
December of twenty twenty that you posted Instagram about your
non binary trans identity, and you wrote quote existing outside
of the binary for me is freedom. I've learned that
(10:36):
my gender doesn't just fit into these molds that keep
trying to hold it down and box it in. I
know that my gender will keep evolving because we change
and grow and shape shift and expand. I know that,
as Andrew Gibson says, my pronouns haven't even been invented yet.
I know that we all have masculinity and femininity inside
of us, and mind show up equally and holy and fully.
I'm wondering if you were worried at that moment that
(10:58):
identifying as trans and using that word affect your status
as a player in the w.
Speaker 3 (11:03):
I mean, I yeah, I definitely did at times. I
think more so with surgery. I was worried, which came
in the following year. Right of'm like mixing up my
years of February, but a lot of there were a
ton of bills going on at that time, so I
was a little bit worried about always becoming like the
(11:24):
the poster child of like the rights fight. Like I
didn't want to become like the wedge issue, like my story,
my body, my person, becoming like this thing that they
propped up to be like, look see this person, Like, well,
basically what all the Twitter trolls do. I didn't want
that to become like knocking on my front door and
the way that would affect me and my family. But
(11:45):
I really struggled with going through the bubble season where
I knew. So in the bubble season in twenty twenty
was when I knew I didn't want to have breast anymore.
And I was starting to reconcile with like, oh, okay,
I'm definitely like a trans person and like an umbrella term,
like what does that mean, I'm gender nonconforming, I'm gender fluid,
like just all those words that like sometimes help us,
(12:07):
sometimes make it more confusing, but I definitely knew. I
was like, all right, I'm a trans person. I don't
want these breasts anymore. And I really struggled with the
fact like in the bubble that like that wasn't visible
and I was one of the main leaders that was
being seen as like a black queer woman, but wasn't
being seen as like a black queer trans person And
(12:27):
that was a really hard just like mental reckoning for myself.
And I wasn't quite ready or didn't know how to
like say it, like, hey, you guys, you know the
person leading this movement is actually like a trans person.
And that was a weird I don't even know how
to word it, just invisible visibility that was happening for
me internally, and so that December post for me was like, no,
it's time to just say it out loud for myself
(12:49):
and to just put it out into the ether that like, yes,
I'm a trans person, Like let's make it clear. Even
though I still had breast at the time, I was
kind of learning you didn't have to like, you know,
like surgery doesn't make you who you are. It was
me getting to a place where I'm just like, all right,
I need to say this and put a stake in
the ground for myself.
Speaker 1 (13:05):
Well, not long after, it was January of twenty twenty
one that you publicly announced that you had the gender
affirming top surgery. Can you take us back at that time,
how did your team, which was the Liberty, your teammates,
the league, did anyone react to the to the surgery
and your identity in a way that was unexpected or
did you feel supported?
Speaker 3 (13:22):
I felt super supported and I did a lot of
the internal advocacy work for myself, which I hope, I
actually know will blaze a trail for other people because
it won't be the first time let's say, player X,
you know, goes to Terry Jackson or to Kathy to say, hey,
I'm going to have the surgery or I'm going to
come out as trans like they already have done it.
(13:44):
But I had to do a lot of that labor
and talking with Terry, and she was great, and she
had to get educated in a lot of ways, and
her and I are super close. Terry Jackson, the head
of the union, And then we would get on a
phone call with Kathy Engelberg, our commissioner, and talk about like, hey,
I'm worried about I'm having this surgery. I'm worried about
(14:04):
when I announced it because I want to say it
publicly that I'm going to become like this big issue.
So I just named it to them, and Kathy was
super firming and was like, you absolutely belong in our league.
This changes nothing. Like I teared up. I'm getting a
little choked up right now, like thinking back on it. Yeah,
because I just hearing the commissioner of your league like
(14:25):
affirm your identity and who you are and also say
like you still belong here was really important for me.
And so yeah, it was happening internally. And then I said,
I need you guys to put out a statement the
same day I post. So then when people look right
and say, oh, this is okay. This WA player posted
about chance being trans having comp surgery, like then they're
(14:46):
going to live to the league and the Union and
the New York Liberty and be like what does this mean?
And what it means is like what Kathy's statement said,
what everyone's statement said was like, I don't know. It
was great, it was beautiful. It was like we accept Asia,
there's a place for them in this league. Blah blah
blah blah, and like that leadership kind of like it
didn't give room for question for people to turn it
into a debate because the leadership was leading the way
(15:07):
it should. Right when a player like me did come.
Speaker 1 (15:09):
Yep oh, and the Liberty sent out a statement using
pronouns for all the players. So that wasn't about reacting.
It was about being proactive to make sure that people
were dealing with that professionally and respectfully as well. What
do you think the biggest, most common misconception is about
you competing as a transperson, something that you want to debunk.
Speaker 3 (15:29):
I mean, I don't go on Twitter anymore, but that
one's usually like there too, and I'm like, thanks you really, Cev, Yeah,
that's very affirming. Thank you exactly. I like, yeah, I
love it, thanks, appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (15:46):
Er fight Master on their podcast Jocular, which I'm obsessed with,
the other day, said they got in a fight with
a woman like driving that was driving terribly and the
woman was like, just because you look like a dude
doesn't mean you could try, and and Er was like,
thank you, that's so thriving. Uh do you think I mean,
I think, first of all, great that you're not on
(16:06):
Twitter listening to that garbage, but also great that you
can't think of one that people seem to really get
it and understand. And I think that's part of the
w being such a progressive league.
Speaker 2 (16:13):
Do you think there are.
Speaker 1 (16:14):
Any changes that the league could make that would benefit
other trans or non binary players in the future as
the league continues to grow, Well.
Speaker 3 (16:21):
I think one the league and internally the un has
done a good job having educational sessions, so I know
that there have been players who've had questions, which there's
no problem with questions or curiosities. There was some players
at AU when we had the year I played at
Athletes Unlimited, we had Chris Moser come and do an
educational series and questions. Players there from the W had
(16:42):
questions and it was interesting because I was able to
like witness them because normally I'm not in the room,
and I specifically when we did the WNBA trainings, I
said like I shouldn't be there because one like people
should feel safe enough to just ask whatever question might
feel silly or dumb or offensive even but if I'm
in the room, I don't feel like people will ask that, right. So, like,
the educational sessions the w's done have been really good,
(17:05):
and I made sure to be out of that space
so they could have them and have the room to
ask all the things and debunk all the myths and
whatever they need to say. So I think they can
continue to have the educational sessions because that's always been
what our league has done. From a player's perspective, is
like educate ourselves first and know that it's okay to
ask questions and not know and be like, hey, I
(17:27):
hear these some these are some of the rumors, or
these are things I hear about testosterone, or these are
things I hear about trans people. So I think the
second thing the league can do is continue to market,
not continue to shift the way we market our gender
non conforming players. So I think, like there's all these
marketing dollars going towards the league right now, which is
(17:48):
so beautiful, Like the skins campaign is amazing, Like I
love love seeing can bring my teammate in and like
everyone just looks like amazing. I love seeing like these
really nailed it.
Speaker 1 (17:59):
It's beautiful but not sexualized and that necessary.
Speaker 3 (18:02):
Yes, Like that is so much growth. So like these
high end dollars, like we're at this place in our league.
We're like I'm walking in with these two rookies on
my team and they're wearing like Gucci boots and I'm like,
where did you guys get these? Like you guys got
money now, Like this is amazing, Like you got the
nil deals, You've got multiple pair of these boots, Like
you know you're not on the same rookie salary I
was on And I love that. And I still think
(18:22):
our league also always struggles with not marketing the people
who are masculine, and so you kind of saw the
like Natasha Clouds and Kisston Bells talk about like what
about a Walkser campaign? Like are we yes market our
fem people who are beautiful? But like there's such a
spectrum of gender expression in our league right and we
know gender expression has nothing to do with your sexual
(18:44):
orientation or your gender identity. It is just literally how
you express yourself in your gender. And we have people
who express themselves across the board in a beautiful, like amazing, gorgeous,
even sexy, like competitive, eclectic way. We've seen the tunnel
Fits evolve in such a really.
Speaker 2 (19:03):
Really cool way.
Speaker 3 (19:04):
So like, are we marketing? I always I talked about
Simone Augustus on that panel, like marketing the Simone Augustus
of our era? Like are we learning? Is the WNBA
learning how they missed out on the Simone? So like
is Courtney Williams getting the marketing deals she should get? Now?
Are we thinking of Natasha cloud And.
Speaker 1 (19:20):
How much is that the league versus the sponsors? And
how do you get sponsors to step up and be
in a space and understand that there's this big market
that's also looking to be like, to be seen, to
be represented. Yes, we're gonna take a quick break plenty
more from Lesia Clarendon right after this. For decades there
(19:46):
were trans folks competing in sports and they abided by
all the different rules and policies across different levels and
age groups and states. There were really no issues or controversies.
And then in recent years trans participation started to be
politicized and laws were added to exclude athletes or public shaming,
you know, forfeiting matches, lawsuits, all this stuff, and this
push really it relies on perpetuating a lie that trans
(20:08):
athletes are dominant and dangerous, that it's unfair, that it's
threatening to women's sports, which is particularly frustrating when it's
people saying that who could not give a shit about
any other aspect of women's sports that needs things like
resources and safety and everything else. Yeah, So, how do
we get people to see past that propaganda and fear
mongering to the reality of the situation, which in some
cases is one trans female athlete in an entire state
(20:31):
that they are making a law around, for in Utah,
that they are making a law around only one of
them participating in women's sports, Like.
Speaker 2 (20:37):
How do how do we you're so smart?
Speaker 1 (20:39):
How do we get people to stop believing this garbage?
Speaker 3 (20:42):
I know?
Speaker 1 (20:43):
I mean.
Speaker 3 (20:46):
I think you have to ask to the question of
the heart of like where the people are coming from?
Do they want to be educated on this topic? Like
education is one I think is really important. There's a
lot of disinformation out there, which different from misinformation right,
like people are like intentionally maliciously. The right is like
putting out information to make you feel like trans people
(21:08):
are taking over the sport and so kind of debunking now,
which I know there's orgs like the Women's Sports Foundation,
and there's people like Chris Moser and a lot of
other trans athletes who do do a ton of like
educational videos when topics come up. So I mean, some
ways I'm at a loss for words because I'm like,
it's just not frankly true. And then I love the
story of myself. That's like, I'm five foot nine, I've
(21:31):
played in the WMA for ten years. I came out
as trans in twenty one. I've played three more seasons
and it's like, you know, I had a really solid
career before I came out as trans. I was already
a All Star, Like I didn't start dunking all of
a sudden. That might have been cool. You know, it
kind of hurts your hands when you do, Like it's like, yeah,
we don't become superhuman. And so I think my question
(21:51):
is always at the heart of like we know these
people exist, and one is like starting with our humanity,
like do you When I'm in a conversation with the person,
it's like do you even believe I should exist? And
it's answers no, And I'm like okay, so like have
a good day because I'm not going to debate or
talk to you about it if you believe and no
chance people are real and you're just like wait, okay,
I keep hearing this stuff. Like then that's where like
(22:13):
we can have the conversation when we can talk about
more of the education and talk about the misinformation and
disinformation out there. But like, frankly, if you don't believe
like trans people or people should have a right to
abortion or like to my body, then I'm like you right,
Like we're trying to put these people out and like
take our country back.
Speaker 1 (22:29):
And that's yeah, it's hard to it's hard to get
anywhere if you can't start with the basic premise of.
Speaker 2 (22:34):
Like respect, right, yes, respect for who people are.
Speaker 1 (22:37):
Yeah. Pabulatory did a really fantastic interview actually with the
one trans female athlete in Ohio that they were making
laws that were.
Speaker 2 (22:45):
Going to affect just her.
Speaker 1 (22:47):
So I highly recommend people go find that episode. But
I think giving specifics and giving real people behind these
stories is one place to start. But yeah, if anyone
has brilliant ideas on how to get people to stop
repeating the lies and the fear mongering that's behind all this,
that would be great. And I'm not speaking to the politicians.
I think it's quite clear that their intent is to
put women in their place and to try to get
(23:07):
back to some sort of Christo fascist idea of what
people's lives should look like and force them into those binaries.
Speaker 2 (23:14):
But I mean regular.
Speaker 1 (23:17):
People might still be able to be suited into understanding
the nuances of the situation. Okay, I want to talk
about your WNB experience, because we mentioned that you played
for half the league, which means you've got a lot
of perspective to offer. Can you tell like some of
the biggest differences among the many franchises you played for.
Is there something that stands out to you about culture
or resources, or attitude or anything that's like, you know,
(23:40):
You've been to all these places and here's what I
came away with.
Speaker 3 (23:45):
So I've played for all three ownership models, which is
really fascinating. So we have the casino ownership model, which
is like Vegas and Connecticut, so I played for Connecticut.
We have the independent ownership model with Kelly Loffler in Atlanta.
We have and I played for the NBA affiliated at Indiana,
which is where I was drafted, and also Minnesota, so
(24:05):
in New York and so a lot of the I
would say NBA and casino were the best resource, which
makes sense because independent ownership was a lot tougher. I
think the Seattle Storm have done a good job of
that for years as independent owned owned teams, But playing
in Indiana where I was drafted, where we just had
(24:27):
a practice court and there was so much equality from
the beginning of how we were treated. I was at
New York at the tail end of just when they
finished building that locker, when I was done playing for
that team, and just saw like the level of like
wealth and money and resources that was being poured into
like the women's side of the game. And so I've
(24:48):
also played for a decade, so just seeing how from
twenty thirteen to twenty or the money's changed and the
investment has changed has been really fascinating. The Minnesota Links,
we're one of my favorite teams to play for because
they have a culture of winning and like Cheryl Reeve
is a coach that like is gonna demand when you
(25:11):
step on the court that there's a level to which
you play with. And I think you're seeing that in
the finals right now, Like you and I remember stepping
on her core and there's like a little bit of fear.
You're just like, oh shit, like a fight, Like you're
gonna get your ass handed to you if you step
on that core. And it's very reminiscent to me of
Lynn Dunn, and that's who coached me my rookie year
and she was so hard on me. And I think
(25:31):
like Lynda and Stephanie White and Cheryl Reeve are like
three of the best coaches that I've ever played for.
And it's their attention to detail, their ability to build
relationships with players, and there are standards that they set
across the board. They don't care who you are, like
Lyn dun did not care if it was Tamika Catchings
or Leisah Clarendon. Cheryl Reeve does not care if it's
(25:54):
an a Fisa Collier or her rookie Peeley, Like she's
gonna hold them to the exact same standard of you
when you're out here, like you better when you step
between these lines, you better show the up or get
off my court. Like I like when that had said that,
when there's times where if you messed up my rookie year,
there was no time to keep going over things, she
(26:14):
would literally say get off the court next, and then
I would be like, oh my god, like, don't cry,
don't try, don't like that stuff off, Oh my god.
Speaker 2 (26:22):
Yep, set the expectation for sure.
Speaker 1 (26:25):
We have to take another break. The conclusion of my
conversation with Lee coming up. You mentioned that you were
leaving the Liberty right when they were building the locker room,
and obviously the Liberty has changed a ton in recent years,
but it felt like there was a strange ending for you.
(26:46):
You had played a lot of minutes, you had been
a big participant, and then when the Liberty waived you
you were playing. You know you'd played like three minutes
in that first couple of games. It felt like there
was some either unfinished business or some sadness around that
that felt like bigger than just the general sadness of
being waved.
Speaker 2 (27:04):
Can you speak to that.
Speaker 3 (27:06):
It's something I might write in the book one day.
It might just be something I let go. But there
was definitely some internal what's the word I'm looking for,
like internal issues that I was having with the New
York Liberty. And it's no shocker that I was waved,
or it should be a shock when I was on
a guaranteed contract. I played great for them in the
(27:28):
bubble season as a leader, I signed it to your deal,
and then I'm waived that season after clearly being squashed
to the end of the bench. So I think you
can put some of the pieces together. I'm not ready
to talk about it publicly, and it might be something
I write about one day, but it definitely was like
it ended with a dirty, nasty taste in my mouth
and was not treated very well, specifically that by the
(27:50):
basketball and GM side of it. The front office of
the New York Liberty is still phenomenal. I think Sandy's
phenomenal as a coach there. They've cleared out the house there.
Kia Clark's amazing. I still keep in touch with quite
a few people at the New York Liberty, but it
was a very specific aspect of it. On the basketball side.
Speaker 2 (28:09):
I'm sorry to hear that.
Speaker 1 (28:11):
I know you mentioned how important it was for Kathy
Engelbert to affirm you and your identity when you announce
you had top surgery. That feels like a contrast a
little bit to what we've seen with players discussing receiving
the hateful and racist messages this season. Kathy sort of
dropped the ball when asked about that topic on a
CNBC show. And I know people aren't monolists. Kathy can
do a lot of great things. Then also sort of
struggle to answer or speak to some of these issues
(28:34):
that players are talking about. Now, Why do you think
there was a disconnect on that issue though, between what
the players were experience and maybe Kathy was either aware
of or able to speak to.
Speaker 3 (28:43):
I still think in this moment in time, it's much
easier now to talk about LGBT inclusion than to talk
about racism. Hands down, So I think it's Kathy struggling
with and are holy grappling with like Caitlyn Clark's coming
into the league, the fan base, and how do we
(29:04):
talk about this nuanced conversation of race and like all
of these things, Like the podcast could be just on
this topic alone, Like we could start one just to
like get into all of these topics. So I think
that's just Kathy struggling, frankly as a white woman to
talk about race, and maybe some fear about the backlash
of the fan base or Caitlyn's you know, fan base
(29:25):
from Iowa. So I'm not sure there, but I know
I've seen the ways that people will step up for
queerness but really still struggle with blackness. And that's again
where someone like me sets up the intersections of those
identities and it's sucks to see. And I think it's
just the players definitely expected more from her, But I
think it's that just not being ready or willing or
(29:47):
also equipped to talk about racism in a way of
like I basically majored in sociology at CAW and people
always like, how are you.
Speaker 2 (29:54):
Going to use that?
Speaker 3 (29:55):
And it's like that's literally what my career has come
to me. And so like when you're looking at the
wa covering it. It's like you do almost need like
to at least take a class on intersectionality because there's
so many factors happening. It's not as easy to just
show up and cover it. Like a men's hockey league. Right,
you maybe have some international like topics that we talk about,
but it's not you're not just talking about predominantly mostly
(30:16):
a bunch of white guys, a bunch of white dis guys, right,
and you so like when you look at our league
and you're talking about race and gender and sexuality. Right,
and at a moment in time when an election is
coming and a star player who is white, who people
are saying has basically saved our league, which we know
is not true, which is also coming out of time
where the growth of our league has been like bursting
(30:38):
at the seams. And also like the players are so
damn excited for our young players to come in. Like
once a player comes into our league, like there ares
that's what our league does. It's like you're a part
of us now, so we're rallying up everybody to be good,
Like it doesn't matter who you are, Angel Caitlin, Like
in all the rookies, we're like, you're ours and now
you're a part of a legacy that says you speak
(31:00):
up for social justice, right like, we don't just ignore
these issues. And so I think we're seeing some of
that all swirly in the players and in the zyguy
absolutely this season. Yeah, And I would apposed Jathy could
have done a better job of putting a steak in
the ground.
Speaker 1 (31:15):
Yeah, I completely agree, And I think in the position
that she's in, it's necessary to do the work to
be able to do that, you know, in a very
honest moment. I'll tell you a bunch of years ago,
I remember I was talking to my buddy Scoop Jackson,
who's a longtime basketball writer ESPN guy, and I was
telling him that someone had messaged me and said, how
come you wear LGBTQ plus ally shirts like love Winds
and Rainbow stuff and you'll you never wear anything for
(31:37):
like Black History Month? And I said, I feel like
I would be like made fun of or accused of appropriating,
or it doesn't feel comfortable in the same way to
be an ally to that group. But I don't know
why I am an ally, but I don't It doesn't
feel the same, and I remember talking to Scoop about
it and saying, why does it feel like allyship for
LGBTQIA plus comes easily and is an allyship sometimes in
(32:01):
terms of race is so much more complicated and fraught.
And one of the things he said that was sort
of a wake up for me and for a lot
of other white women and white people, I think, is
that there's an expectation of a certain amount of work
having been done that oftentimes isn't so if you come
to the space and hope that they'll be happy that
you're an ally, but you don't show that you really
(32:24):
get it, there's a frustration there.
Speaker 2 (32:26):
Of how are we still here?
Speaker 1 (32:28):
And I felt then years later in twenty twenty, when
everything happened with George Floyd, that was writ large right.
It was yeah, we've been saying this, and yeah, you
don't get to just read white fragility now and then
be like, oh, got it, My bad. You should have
been here, you should have known this, you should have
asked about this, this should have mattered to you before now.
(32:49):
And I think for a lot of white people who
think they're doing their best like that sucks to feel like, oh,
I haven't been.
Speaker 2 (32:56):
Doing my best.
Speaker 1 (32:57):
There's a lot more I should have done that I
think doesn't happen quite as much in the queer community
right And it's not a simple explanation, but I love
that you said that, and I do think that's maybe
why Kathy felt like this is easy breezy to say
you're included and we love you, and struggles a little
(33:18):
bit to speak to the nuance of the race issues
that the league is dealing with. There is so much
intersectionality that that has dominated so much of the conversation
around the league this year, and it's necessary and helpful
and it's moving us forward, but it also at times
has kept us from like straight up talking about basketball.
Speaker 2 (33:32):
Which has been amazing.
Speaker 1 (33:35):
I do want to make sure we talk about the
WNBA Finals while you're here, too, because you have been
playing in these games against these teams and players as
recently as just a couple of weeks ago, so you
are uniquely positioned to talk to us about some of this.
And you mentioned you played for Cheryl Reeve game one
and two. The links were playing catchup almost from the jump.
If you're in the huddle Wednesday, what do you think,
Coach Reeve is telling her team before tip off about
(33:55):
not allowing the Liberty to get off to a hot
start in Game three and start that again.
Speaker 3 (33:59):
Oh, they've watched a Toten film on why they had
the bad starts and what they did, so they better
come out of the cannon, like protecting home court. So
I know she's you know, probably already used a lot
of the cuss words, but she's also will building new ones.
Is like let's go, like, we're not playing around. We're
at home now, like we need to handle business, you know.
(34:20):
And the Links usually are a team that gets out
to good starts, so it was a little shocking to
see how much New York jumped on them. But New
York's at home, so like that was to be expected,
and I wasn't expecting the seventeen point ly, But she's
definitely telling them like pick it the fuck up, or
you're coming out or calling time out, like we can't
we can't keep doing that and expect to win the championship,
(34:40):
right because we're playing a really good team.
Speaker 1 (34:42):
You keep mentioning that the series has shifts that will
make a big difference. We're going to be in Minneapolis
at the Target Center for Games three and four. What's
the biggest difference you see with the Links now getting
to play on home court.
Speaker 3 (34:52):
I mean getting that home court advantage, in the crowd
behind you, sleeping in your own bed, all the things
we know about the comforts of being home. That offers
you that the crowd is behind you, you have a
little more slag in your step when you're in your
own space, like these are two of the best fan
bases in the league. Hands down. Target Center is an
amazing place to play, So I think that's a big one.
(35:13):
It also puts the liberty of like when you're playing
against a home crowd, like silencing them is the best
feeling ever. So I'm curious to see how I think
the liberty are going to come out. They've got to
be thinking still game three, right, Like we have to
steal one in order to get back to Barclays, and
so their whole mission is like game three is ours.
They stole the first one at our house, we got
(35:34):
to still the first one at their house.
Speaker 1 (35:36):
I was listening to a Touch More with Sue Birt
and Meghan Rappino, great podcasts, and they were talking about
how lucky we all are to be watching Ifisa Collier
and Brianna Stewart and Asia Wilson and all these players
at the same time. They're all sort of peaking around
the same time, and there hasn't really been that moment
in w's history before. You had some folks like Maya
Moore and d T at the same time, but they
(35:57):
were six or seven years between those two.
Speaker 2 (36:00):
These are some really really.
Speaker 1 (36:01):
Spectacular players, all playing at the top of their game
around the same time. What's been your reaction to playing
against people like Brianna and Fi and Asia and also
just watching them from afar?
Speaker 3 (36:14):
Oh. My reaction to playing against them is fuck, yeah,
it's fine, right, Like it's so much fun. Sometimes, Like
something happened in the game yesterday and I was like,
yepes do we did that to me? Like it's like
you're trying to make an entry pass from the wing
and you're like I could totally make this, and Stewey
just like jumps up and steals it, and you're like
what the fuck, Like you're so long, like how did
(36:34):
you do that? Like so kind of reminiscing, I'm like, yep,
I've been there, Like sorry to teach them, even a
Courtney whoever turned it over seeing Asia just as like
we're growing up or we're getting to watch yeah, like
the Mayas, the Michael Jordan's, like the level of talent
and the way what I love is the way everyone
knows how good these players are and they're scheming to
(36:55):
stop them and yet they can't stop them. Like that's
the greatness we're getting to watch. And I didn't know, honestly,
Nefisa was gonna be that good, Like she was drafted
to Minnesota. I played with her and Sil for one year,
so Sil was more the main player. Fee was solid.
She wasn't putting the ball on the floor quite as well.
Her three wasn't as consistent. She hadn't yet perfected that
turnaround off of one foot and so.
Speaker 2 (37:17):
The feet away, the feed away what I call it
the feet away jumper. So watching Fee.
Speaker 3 (37:23):
Like just develop into like an MVP candidate has made
me so proud and so happy for her because she's
a phenomenal human being and just like, oh, you're you're
like MVP good, Like I didn't know you were going
to be that good. Like when Soil left, it was like, oh,
Sophia was like, oh, y'all didn't know, I'm letting you know.
And then I played with John Quell at Connecticut and
just her ability to shoot the three, her ability to
(37:46):
get inside her length. And so the thing I've been
saying when I watched like now that I can just
be a fan too, is I'm like, it's not fair.
Like I literally just keep saying it's not fair. Are
you guys watching this? Like my wife's get tired in there?
I'm like, Stewie is the five right now, she just
brought the ball of the This is not fair.
Speaker 1 (38:04):
That's all I think about is like when I was
in high school, I was six feet tall and I
was a center. Yes, like sometimes I was a power
forward in AAU, I was a forward, but like I
would right now, I would be a point guard.
Speaker 2 (38:15):
I would have to have insane ball handling skills. And
Sy're like, what.
Speaker 3 (38:19):
No, Yes, Like that's the era why you've been doing this.
Speaker 1 (38:23):
Yes, it's like the unicorn era of the NBA has
hit the w NBA full force right now and it's
all in unicorns.
Speaker 3 (38:29):
Aye Wilson is coming off of staggers and like, what no,
And you don't do that, like stay down there so
we can figure out how to double team you and
do something. She's like, no, I'm coming on with staggers.
Now I put the ball on the floor. Like these
big people are.
Speaker 1 (38:41):
Like position, let's basketball though, that's my favorite. That's that's
I love watching bigs that can move and shoot and
handle the ball, like, oh my god.
Speaker 2 (38:48):
It's just it's just the series has been so.
Speaker 1 (38:51):
Fun because there are so many players like that and
it's so cool to watch. And also I am not
at all wanting to be a coach in this series.
No all how to top post unicorns.
Speaker 3 (39:03):
It's fun. It's been really interesting on the defensive side,
like on Minnesota has gone to their really small lineup
to counter because like Sabrina is just getting threes in
transition and it's like, I played it. I know it's like, okay,
guard your matchup, but what do you do when Stewie
brings the ball down and the point guard goes to
stop Stewie because that's our job. But then he's a
post player gonna get out to Sabrina on the wing
in time? Like no, so yeah, that's what the link said.
(39:26):
So I'm like, let's go small so we can at
least keep a body on a body so fun.
Speaker 1 (39:31):
We're so looking forward to Game three. It's going to
be a blast. I've kept you too long. Thank you
so much for coming on. I know you said you
don't want people to ask you what's next, so I won't.
I'll just say that you are one of the most
thoughtful and brilliant people I know, so I'm dying to
see where you're going to direct that brain power and
that influence and all of that.
Speaker 2 (39:47):
So let us know when you figure it out.
Speaker 3 (39:49):
I will give us a call.
Speaker 2 (39:50):
We'll have you back.
Speaker 3 (39:52):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (39:56):
We hope you love that conversation with Lesia Clarendon as
much as we did. Tomorrow we'll be revisiting another favorite
convo from twenty twenty four, this one with soccer stars
and media moguls Sam Muis and Becky Sowerbrun See you then,
Good Game with Sarah Spain is an iHeart women's sports
production in partnership with Deep Blue Sports and Entertainment. You
can find us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or
(40:19):
wherever you get your podcasts. Production by Wonder Media Network,
our producers are Alex Azzie and Misha Jones. Our executive
producers are Christina Everett, Jesse Katz, Jenny Kaplan, and Emily Rudder.
Our editors are Emily Rudder, Britney Martinez, Grace Lynch and
Lindsay Cradowell. Production assistants from Lucy Jones and I'm Your
Host Sarah Spain
Welcome to good Game of Sarah Spain where we're screaming
Happy Daly. It's Wednesday, January first, twenty twenty five. Holy shit.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Today we're running it back with Leijia Clarendon.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
They joined me back in October, not long after retiring
from the WNBA. We talked embracing this next phase of
his life, navigating identity and gender and pro sports, and
about the Kappy Engelbert CNBC interview that sparked conversations across
the league. That conversation's coming up right after this stick around.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
Joining us now.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
They played eleven seasons in the WNBA, were the first
openly non binary WNBA player and the first active WNBA
player to have top surgery. Former vice president of the
Players Association, she uses all the pronouns and is the
founder of the Laisa Clarendon Foundation. He played for the
Indiana Fever, the Atlanta Dream, the Connecticut Son, the New
York Liberty, the Minnesota Lynx, and the Los Angeles Sparks,
(01:07):
and is one of just four players in Sparks franchise
history to put up a triple double before announcing his
retirement at the end of this season.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
She's a proud Berkeley alum.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
She and her badass wife Jessica Clarendon are enjoying the
ups and downs of parenthood and we've both collected checks
from the Golden State Warriors despite never suiting up.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
It's Leisia Clarendon.
Speaker 3 (01:25):
What's up, Lasia, what's up? I love the I played
for half the league. That's like my favorite party I
really have.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
I think I'm saddest about your retirement because I wanted
to see if you could try to hit every team
and you had to get moving because the expansion teams
were going to make it a little tougher.
Speaker 3 (01:40):
Yeah, make it last.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
Fair, fair, fair fair.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
Also regarding the Golden State Warriors, I met Laisia for
the first time in person when we did a panel
for Women's History Month for the Warriors that they were
going to like do all this stuff with, and it
was so great to be flown out and spend time
with these incredibly brilliant people. And that's when I first
learned about your brilliance, Leasia. And then of course it
never ran because COVID hit and my husband always thought
it was funny though that I had to check from
(02:07):
the Warriors. He was like you got to frame that
and just say that You've got a couple of minutes
in garbage times.
Speaker 3 (02:12):
Seriously, that was a bummer because it was a really
dope just a group of people and it like, yeah,
never shared. I think about that like every.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
Now and Oh, such a good conversation.
Speaker 3 (02:22):
Floating somewhere in someone's you know, desktop storage.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
Let's talk retirement first. Congratulations eleven seasons in the w
You've only had a few weeks. But how's retirement treating
you so far?
Speaker 3 (02:34):
So far, It's amazing, no regrets, super at peace. I'm
enjoying like every minute of waking up and like making
my schedule whatever the what can we coust on here?
We definitely can. Oh hell yeah, okay, whatever the I
want it to be. I was like, I know it's you, Sarah,
so you guys. Ale, Yeah, just making my schedule whatever
I want it to be every day, which is lovely,
which is just you know, like getting your body back
(02:56):
from sports. So that's been like the most beautiful part
about it. It's like I don't have to train today.
I can just go for a walk, I could ride
my bike, I could do nothing.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
That's so relatable, Thank you, because I remember talking to
like Sue Bird and Megan Rapino, and they struggled a
bit more with that because they liked that part of
it eventually, but at the very beginning, the first few
days and weeks, they were like, wait, no one's telling
me what to do. What am I supposed to do?
If no one's telling me what to do and where
to be? And you're already past that, you're like, well,
on to like, Ooh, how nice. I don't have to
(03:26):
go for a run unless I want to.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
I choose what I want to do.
Speaker 3 (03:29):
I'm a Taurus and I love like opulence and luxury
and taking back. Okay, I love to cook, So I've
been cooking time, going to farmers Market every weekend.
Speaker 2 (03:40):
Oh what a dream.
Speaker 4 (03:41):
Yeah, that sounds so nice, eating my best life. You
said after retiring that you didn't want people to ask
you what's next.
Speaker 1 (03:52):
You wanted to really be in the moment and appreciate
what you've accomplished as a player.
Speaker 2 (03:57):
Have you been able to do that? I have.
Speaker 3 (03:58):
I was actually talking to my therapist about that, of one,
how to answer that question of just like figuring out
that I am really content right now, but the pressure
from the outside is that, Like people keep asking me
what's next? What do you want to do? And I'm
actually really content right now not knowing what's next and
really just being in this reflective mode, honestly being in
a deep amount of grief. Today it feels light, you,
(04:22):
thank God, as I'm on this podcast. But other days
it's just been heavy and I've just sobbed and cried,
and I've felt the heartbreak of like losing a part
of myself, of like grieving like this death of Lesia
Claren in the Basketball Player. And so I've really been
honoring myself, honoring my career. That's been something I've done
over a decade professionally, but also my entire life of
(04:44):
just being really in that space of like I did
something for a long time, and that's really beautiful. Yeah, hi, honey,
Oh my god.
Speaker 1 (04:53):
I love that we're getting a little bit of momhood
right here. Yeah, I hear a kiddo, we're definitely keeping
a little bit of that.
Speaker 2 (05:00):
And it's it's too cute, little pa.
Speaker 3 (05:02):
Just hear up the stairs.
Speaker 2 (05:05):
Yep. Okay.
Speaker 1 (05:06):
I love and hate the amount of introspection that retirement
from sports requires at a young age, because most people
whatever it is, that's their identity. They can usually do
it for a really long time unless something tragically takes
it away.
Speaker 2 (05:20):
A cook, a musician, even a dancer, they.
Speaker 1 (05:23):
Can kind of change the way their body moves, but
there's only certain opportunities to really participate at the highest
levels in sport, and that timeline is so short. Is
there a part of you that when you thought about
this coming down the pike, you had already started to
think about a change in identity and how you would
deal with it. Or are you finding that the finality
(05:44):
of it has has hit you in a way that
you know now you're having to process like what do
I want?
Speaker 2 (05:49):
And who am I? And what's next?
Speaker 3 (05:50):
Oh God, a little bit of bolt, I would say,
like I in twenty nineteen was one of my first
major injuries, and I'm really grateful Howard. I was playing
for the Connecticut sign I busted my ankle in practice
and I was out for three months, so just relatively
like short for a major surgery, like an injury. But
what that injury did was I was in therapy at
the time. It helped me start to examine my relationship
(06:12):
with basketball, and I couldn't believe basketball did that to me.
I was like, how could it let me down? How
could it? I've given it everything in my whole life,
and it's been the way I've coped and like it
just I felt mad at basketball and my therapist is like, oh,
let's talk about this more. And so I started to
examine the way I'm in relationship with basketball, and I
never thought about it that way, even though I've done
(06:34):
it my whole life. It's like my longest relationship with
my entire life. And so in that way, I I
would say the last five years have really prepared me
for the moment to retire now because I've done a
lot of work around my identity and around sport and
like restructuring my relationship to the game of basketball, and
I've healed quite a bit, and I think that's what
(06:55):
allowed me to be able to walk away and be like,
I know it's time. This year and the last years
I had just been wrestling with like right bodies moving slower,
like I'm healing. I could see some of the you know,
toxic parts of sports a little more than I could before.
I'm not using it to cope in the same way
I was because I feel, you know, worthy and enough,
so I'm not like doing these million tasks to like
(07:17):
prove to myself that I'm worthy. Like I was just
healing and now I could see the sport a lot differently,
and I still loved the game with all my heart,
but I was able to be like, all right, it's time,
and my body knows it's time. My spirit, yeah, all
of you was just like it's time and that's okay.
Speaker 1 (07:33):
You did such a panel at our espnW summit last
year with er fight Master and Nicky Hilts, talking about
trans participation in sports and gender and sport, and I
remember very distinctly you speaking to not only the responsibility
I think of people who identify as women in being
inclusive and in understanding how to embrace non binary and
(07:56):
trans people as part of the sort of larger effort
of women for quality, but also you spoke to how
sport played such a massive role in giving you a
space to feel the most yourself, which was wild because
it's one of the only truly gendered spaces we have.
Can you talk about that, because I wonder if part
(08:17):
of the reason you didn't need to cope using basketball
as much is because you had decided I know my identity.
I know who I am, and I don't need to
look for that in sport the same way as I
used to.
Speaker 3 (08:28):
Oh my god, yes I forget how good of an
interview you are. Yes, yes, I think that was part
of it, Like I just have done so much healing
and i've I don't need it, like you almost answered
the question for me. I all it felt walking away,
It felt like I completed, like I'm doing some handjest
or such a nancy, but like this full circle moment
(08:50):
or how people say I finished the chapter of a book,
or I think I might even finish that entire book,
and I think my life is going to be multiple books.
And it was just like wow, I turned the line
page and it's done, and that's okay. And when you
finish a really good book sometimes like you're sad because
you love the characters and what it made you feel
and how you belong and how you related to it
all the things, but it's okay because you finished the story.
(09:13):
And that's very much how my career feels. Is like
I feel the pain and the ache and I missed
the I already missed like my teammates and those interactions.
But I needed it to belong so much, and I
loved that I belonged, and I loved that sport gave me,
you know, an outlet for my competitiveness, for my fierceness.
(09:34):
It gave me all the coping tools to deal with
family drama. It gave me you know, tours around the world.
It gave me financial stability, and I'm just out of
place now with my family, with my sense of self,
with my healing, Even with all the work I've done
outside of sport, building my own brand and my own legacy,
(09:57):
I would say is like that all happened through sport,
But it's okay for me to like lay down the
basketball now that the playing part.
Speaker 1 (10:03):
Of it right, and you get to be your full
self everywhere instead of just getting to express parts of
yourself on the court and relying on that.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
Space to be included.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
You know, you and I have spoken over a number
of different years as you've been on this journey of
identification and self discovery, and you began publicly identifying as
nonsensegender back in twenty fifteen, but it wasn't n till
December of twenty twenty that you posted Instagram about your
non binary trans identity, and you wrote quote existing outside
of the binary for me is freedom. I've learned that
(10:36):
my gender doesn't just fit into these molds that keep
trying to hold it down and box it in. I
know that my gender will keep evolving because we change
and grow and shape shift and expand. I know that,
as Andrew Gibson says, my pronouns haven't even been invented yet.
I know that we all have masculinity and femininity inside
of us, and mind show up equally and holy and fully.
I'm wondering if you were worried at that moment that
(10:58):
identifying as trans and using that word affect your status
as a player in the w.
Speaker 3 (11:03):
I mean, I yeah, I definitely did at times. I
think more so with surgery. I was worried, which came
in the following year. Right of'm like mixing up my
years of February, but a lot of there were a
ton of bills going on at that time, so I
was a little bit worried about always becoming like the
(11:24):
the poster child of like the rights fight. Like I
didn't want to become like the wedge issue, like my story,
my body, my person, becoming like this thing that they
propped up to be like, look see this person, Like, well,
basically what all the Twitter trolls do. I didn't want
that to become like knocking on my front door and
the way that would affect me and my family. But
(11:45):
I really struggled with going through the bubble season where
I knew. So in the bubble season in twenty twenty
was when I knew I didn't want to have breast anymore.
And I was starting to reconcile with like, oh, okay,
I'm definitely like a trans person and like an umbrella term,
like what does that mean, I'm gender nonconforming, I'm gender fluid,
like just all those words that like sometimes help us,
(12:07):
sometimes make it more confusing, but I definitely knew. I
was like, all right, I'm a trans person. I don't
want these breasts anymore. And I really struggled with the
fact like in the bubble that like that wasn't visible
and I was one of the main leaders that was
being seen as like a black queer woman, but wasn't
being seen as like a black queer trans person And
(12:27):
that was a really hard just like mental reckoning for myself.
And I wasn't quite ready or didn't know how to
like say it, like, hey, you guys, you know the
person leading this movement is actually like a trans person.
And that was a weird I don't even know how
to word it, just invisible visibility that was happening for
me internally, and so that December post for me was like, no,
it's time to just say it out loud for myself
(12:49):
and to just put it out into the ether that like, yes,
I'm a trans person, Like let's make it clear. Even
though I still had breast at the time, I was
kind of learning you didn't have to like, you know,
like surgery doesn't make you who you are. It was
me getting to a place where I'm just like, all right,
I need to say this and put a stake in
the ground for myself.
Speaker 1 (13:05):
Well, not long after, it was January of twenty twenty
one that you publicly announced that you had the gender
affirming top surgery. Can you take us back at that time,
how did your team, which was the Liberty, your teammates,
the league, did anyone react to the to the surgery
and your identity in a way that was unexpected or
did you feel supported?
Speaker 3 (13:22):
I felt super supported and I did a lot of
the internal advocacy work for myself, which I hope, I
actually know will blaze a trail for other people because
it won't be the first time let's say, player X,
you know, goes to Terry Jackson or to Kathy to say, hey,
I'm going to have the surgery or I'm going to
come out as trans like they already have done it.
(13:44):
But I had to do a lot of that labor
and talking with Terry, and she was great, and she
had to get educated in a lot of ways, and
her and I are super close. Terry Jackson, the head
of the union, And then we would get on a
phone call with Kathy Engelberg, our commissioner, and talk about like, hey,
I'm worried about I'm having this surgery. I'm worried about
(14:04):
when I announced it because I want to say it
publicly that I'm going to become like this big issue.
So I just named it to them, and Kathy was
super firming and was like, you absolutely belong in our league.
This changes nothing. Like I teared up. I'm getting a
little choked up right now, like thinking back on it. Yeah,
because I just hearing the commissioner of your league like
(14:25):
affirm your identity and who you are and also say
like you still belong here was really important for me.
And so yeah, it was happening internally. And then I said,
I need you guys to put out a statement the
same day I post. So then when people look right
and say, oh, this is okay. This WA player posted
about chance being trans having comp surgery, like then they're
(14:46):
going to live to the league and the Union and
the New York Liberty and be like what does this mean?
And what it means is like what Kathy's statement said,
what everyone's statement said was like, I don't know. It
was great, it was beautiful. It was like we accept Asia,
there's a place for them in this league. Blah blah
blah blah, and like that leadership kind of like it
didn't give room for question for people to turn it
into a debate because the leadership was leading the way
(15:07):
it should. Right when a player like me did come.
Speaker 1 (15:09):
Yep oh, and the Liberty sent out a statement using
pronouns for all the players. So that wasn't about reacting.
It was about being proactive to make sure that people
were dealing with that professionally and respectfully as well. What
do you think the biggest, most common misconception is about
you competing as a transperson, something that you want to debunk.
Speaker 3 (15:29):
I mean, I don't go on Twitter anymore, but that
one's usually like there too, and I'm like, thanks you really, Cev, Yeah,
that's very affirming. Thank you exactly. I like, yeah, I
love it, thanks, appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (15:46):
Er fight Master on their podcast Jocular, which I'm obsessed with,
the other day, said they got in a fight with
a woman like driving that was driving terribly and the
woman was like, just because you look like a dude
doesn't mean you could try, and and Er was like,
thank you, that's so thriving. Uh do you think I mean,
I think, first of all, great that you're not on
(16:06):
Twitter listening to that garbage, but also great that you
can't think of one that people seem to really get
it and understand. And I think that's part of the
w being such a progressive league.
Speaker 2 (16:13):
Do you think there are.
Speaker 1 (16:14):
Any changes that the league could make that would benefit
other trans or non binary players in the future as
the league continues to grow, Well.
Speaker 3 (16:21):
I think one the league and internally the un has
done a good job having educational sessions, so I know
that there have been players who've had questions, which there's
no problem with questions or curiosities. There was some players
at AU when we had the year I played at
Athletes Unlimited, we had Chris Moser come and do an
educational series and questions. Players there from the W had
(16:42):
questions and it was interesting because I was able to
like witness them because normally I'm not in the room,
and I specifically when we did the WNBA trainings, I
said like I shouldn't be there because one like people
should feel safe enough to just ask whatever question might
feel silly or dumb or offensive even but if I'm
in the room, I don't feel like people will ask that, right. So, like,
the educational sessions the w's done have been really good,
(17:05):
and I made sure to be out of that space
so they could have them and have the room to
ask all the things and debunk all the myths and
whatever they need to say. So I think they can
continue to have the educational sessions because that's always been
what our league has done. From a player's perspective, is
like educate ourselves first and know that it's okay to
ask questions and not know and be like, hey, I
(17:27):
hear these some these are some of the rumors, or
these are things I hear about testosterone, or these are
things I hear about trans people. So I think the
second thing the league can do is continue to market,
not continue to shift the way we market our gender
non conforming players. So I think, like there's all these
marketing dollars going towards the league right now, which is
(17:48):
so beautiful, Like the skins campaign is amazing, Like I
love love seeing can bring my teammate in and like
everyone just looks like amazing. I love seeing like these
really nailed it.
Speaker 1 (17:59):
It's beautiful but not sexualized and that necessary.
Speaker 3 (18:02):
Yes, Like that is so much growth. So like these
high end dollars, like we're at this place in our league.
We're like I'm walking in with these two rookies on
my team and they're wearing like Gucci boots and I'm like,
where did you guys get these? Like you guys got
money now, Like this is amazing, Like you got the
nil deals, You've got multiple pair of these boots, Like
you know you're not on the same rookie salary I
was on And I love that. And I still think
(18:22):
our league also always struggles with not marketing the people
who are masculine, and so you kind of saw the
like Natasha Clouds and Kisston Bells talk about like what
about a Walkser campaign? Like are we yes market our
fem people who are beautiful? But like there's such a
spectrum of gender expression in our league right and we
know gender expression has nothing to do with your sexual
(18:44):
orientation or your gender identity. It is just literally how
you express yourself in your gender. And we have people
who express themselves across the board in a beautiful, like amazing, gorgeous,
even sexy, like competitive, eclectic way. We've seen the tunnel
Fits evolve in such a really.
Speaker 2 (19:03):
Really cool way.
Speaker 3 (19:04):
So like, are we marketing? I always I talked about
Simone Augustus on that panel, like marketing the Simone Augustus
of our era? Like are we learning? Is the WNBA
learning how they missed out on the Simone? So like
is Courtney Williams getting the marketing deals she should get? Now?
Are we thinking of Natasha cloud And.
Speaker 1 (19:20):
How much is that the league versus the sponsors? And
how do you get sponsors to step up and be
in a space and understand that there's this big market
that's also looking to be like, to be seen, to
be represented. Yes, we're gonna take a quick break plenty
more from Lesia Clarendon right after this. For decades there
(19:46):
were trans folks competing in sports and they abided by
all the different rules and policies across different levels and
age groups and states. There were really no issues or controversies.
And then in recent years trans participation started to be
politicized and laws were added to exclude athletes or public shaming,
you know, forfeiting matches, lawsuits, all this stuff, and this
push really it relies on perpetuating a lie that trans
(20:08):
athletes are dominant and dangerous, that it's unfair, that it's
threatening to women's sports, which is particularly frustrating when it's
people saying that who could not give a shit about
any other aspect of women's sports that needs things like
resources and safety and everything else. Yeah, So, how do
we get people to see past that propaganda and fear
mongering to the reality of the situation, which in some
cases is one trans female athlete in an entire state
(20:31):
that they are making a law around, for in Utah,
that they are making a law around only one of
them participating in women's sports, Like.
Speaker 2 (20:37):
How do how do we you're so smart?
Speaker 1 (20:39):
How do we get people to stop believing this garbage?
Speaker 3 (20:42):
I know?
Speaker 1 (20:43):
I mean.
Speaker 3 (20:46):
I think you have to ask to the question of
the heart of like where the people are coming from?
Do they want to be educated on this topic? Like
education is one I think is really important. There's a
lot of disinformation out there, which different from misinformation right,
like people are like intentionally maliciously. The right is like
putting out information to make you feel like trans people
(21:08):
are taking over the sport and so kind of debunking now,
which I know there's orgs like the Women's Sports Foundation,
and there's people like Chris Moser and a lot of
other trans athletes who do do a ton of like
educational videos when topics come up. So I mean, some
ways I'm at a loss for words because I'm like,
it's just not frankly true. And then I love the
story of myself. That's like, I'm five foot nine, I've
(21:31):
played in the WMA for ten years. I came out
as trans in twenty one. I've played three more seasons
and it's like, you know, I had a really solid
career before I came out as trans. I was already
a All Star, Like I didn't start dunking all of
a sudden. That might have been cool. You know, it
kind of hurts your hands when you do, Like it's like, yeah,
we don't become superhuman. And so I think my question
(21:51):
is always at the heart of like we know these
people exist, and one is like starting with our humanity,
like do you When I'm in a conversation with the person,
it's like do you even believe I should exist? And
it's answers no, And I'm like okay, so like have
a good day because I'm not going to debate or
talk to you about it if you believe and no
chance people are real and you're just like wait, okay,
I keep hearing this stuff. Like then that's where like
(22:13):
we can have the conversation when we can talk about
more of the education and talk about the misinformation and
disinformation out there. But like, frankly, if you don't believe
like trans people or people should have a right to
abortion or like to my body, then I'm like you right,
Like we're trying to put these people out and like
take our country back.
Speaker 1 (22:29):
And that's yeah, it's hard to it's hard to get
anywhere if you can't start with the basic premise of.
Speaker 2 (22:34):
Like respect, right, yes, respect for who people are.
Speaker 1 (22:37):
Yeah. Pabulatory did a really fantastic interview actually with the
one trans female athlete in Ohio that they were making
laws that were.
Speaker 2 (22:45):
Going to affect just her.
Speaker 1 (22:47):
So I highly recommend people go find that episode. But
I think giving specifics and giving real people behind these
stories is one place to start. But yeah, if anyone
has brilliant ideas on how to get people to stop
repeating the lies and the fear mongering that's behind all this,
that would be great. And I'm not speaking to the politicians.
I think it's quite clear that their intent is to
put women in their place and to try to get
(23:07):
back to some sort of Christo fascist idea of what
people's lives should look like and force them into those binaries.
Speaker 2 (23:14):
But I mean regular.
Speaker 1 (23:17):
People might still be able to be suited into understanding
the nuances of the situation. Okay, I want to talk
about your WNB experience, because we mentioned that you played
for half the league, which means you've got a lot
of perspective to offer. Can you tell like some of
the biggest differences among the many franchises you played for.
Is there something that stands out to you about culture
or resources, or attitude or anything that's like, you know,
(23:40):
You've been to all these places and here's what I
came away with.
Speaker 3 (23:45):
So I've played for all three ownership models, which is
really fascinating. So we have the casino ownership model, which
is like Vegas and Connecticut, so I played for Connecticut.
We have the independent ownership model with Kelly Loffler in Atlanta.
We have and I played for the NBA affiliated at Indiana,
which is where I was drafted, and also Minnesota, so
(24:05):
in New York and so a lot of the I
would say NBA and casino were the best resource, which
makes sense because independent ownership was a lot tougher. I
think the Seattle Storm have done a good job of
that for years as independent owned owned teams, But playing
in Indiana where I was drafted, where we just had
(24:27):
a practice court and there was so much equality from
the beginning of how we were treated. I was at
New York at the tail end of just when they
finished building that locker, when I was done playing for
that team, and just saw like the level of like
wealth and money and resources that was being poured into
like the women's side of the game. And so I've
(24:48):
also played for a decade, so just seeing how from
twenty thirteen to twenty or the money's changed and the
investment has changed has been really fascinating. The Minnesota Links,
we're one of my favorite teams to play for because
they have a culture of winning and like Cheryl Reeve
is a coach that like is gonna demand when you
(25:11):
step on the court that there's a level to which
you play with. And I think you're seeing that in
the finals right now, Like you and I remember stepping
on her core and there's like a little bit of fear.
You're just like, oh shit, like a fight, Like you're
gonna get your ass handed to you if you step
on that core. And it's very reminiscent to me of
Lynn Dunn, and that's who coached me my rookie year
and she was so hard on me. And I think
(25:31):
like Lynda and Stephanie White and Cheryl Reeve are like
three of the best coaches that I've ever played for.
And it's their attention to detail, their ability to build
relationships with players, and there are standards that they set
across the board. They don't care who you are, like
Lyn dun did not care if it was Tamika Catchings
or Leisah Clarendon. Cheryl Reeve does not care if it's
(25:54):
an a Fisa Collier or her rookie Peeley, Like she's
gonna hold them to the exact same standard of you
when you're out here, like you better when you step
between these lines, you better show the up or get
off my court. Like I like when that had said that,
when there's times where if you messed up my rookie year,
there was no time to keep going over things, she
(26:14):
would literally say get off the court next, and then
I would be like, oh my god, like, don't cry,
don't try, don't like that stuff off, Oh my god.
Speaker 2 (26:22):
Yep, set the expectation for sure.
Speaker 1 (26:25):
We have to take another break. The conclusion of my
conversation with Lee coming up. You mentioned that you were
leaving the Liberty right when they were building the locker room,
and obviously the Liberty has changed a ton in recent years,
but it felt like there was a strange ending for you.
(26:46):
You had played a lot of minutes, you had been
a big participant, and then when the Liberty waived you
you were playing. You know you'd played like three minutes
in that first couple of games. It felt like there
was some either unfinished business or some sadness around that
that felt like bigger than just the general sadness of
being waved.
Speaker 2 (27:04):
Can you speak to that.
Speaker 3 (27:06):
It's something I might write in the book one day.
It might just be something I let go. But there
was definitely some internal what's the word I'm looking for,
like internal issues that I was having with the New
York Liberty. And it's no shocker that I was waved,
or it should be a shock when I was on
a guaranteed contract. I played great for them in the
(27:28):
bubble season as a leader, I signed it to your deal,
and then I'm waived that season after clearly being squashed
to the end of the bench. So I think you
can put some of the pieces together. I'm not ready
to talk about it publicly, and it might be something
I write about one day, but it definitely was like
it ended with a dirty, nasty taste in my mouth
and was not treated very well, specifically that by the
(27:50):
basketball and GM side of it. The front office of
the New York Liberty is still phenomenal. I think Sandy's
phenomenal as a coach there. They've cleared out the house there.
Kia Clark's amazing. I still keep in touch with quite
a few people at the New York Liberty, but it
was a very specific aspect of it. On the basketball side.
Speaker 2 (28:09):
I'm sorry to hear that.
Speaker 1 (28:11):
I know you mentioned how important it was for Kathy
Engelbert to affirm you and your identity when you announce
you had top surgery. That feels like a contrast a
little bit to what we've seen with players discussing receiving
the hateful and racist messages this season. Kathy sort of
dropped the ball when asked about that topic on a
CNBC show. And I know people aren't monolists. Kathy can
do a lot of great things. Then also sort of
struggle to answer or speak to some of these issues
(28:34):
that players are talking about. Now, Why do you think
there was a disconnect on that issue though, between what
the players were experience and maybe Kathy was either aware
of or able to speak to.
Speaker 3 (28:43):
I still think in this moment in time, it's much
easier now to talk about LGBT inclusion than to talk
about racism. Hands down, So I think it's Kathy struggling
with and are holy grappling with like Caitlyn Clark's coming
into the league, the fan base, and how do we
(29:04):
talk about this nuanced conversation of race and like all
of these things, Like the podcast could be just on
this topic alone, Like we could start one just to
like get into all of these topics. So I think
that's just Kathy struggling, frankly as a white woman to
talk about race, and maybe some fear about the backlash
of the fan base or Caitlyn's you know, fan base
(29:25):
from Iowa. So I'm not sure there, but I know
I've seen the ways that people will step up for
queerness but really still struggle with blackness. And that's again
where someone like me sets up the intersections of those
identities and it's sucks to see. And I think it's
just the players definitely expected more from her, But I
think it's that just not being ready or willing or
(29:47):
also equipped to talk about racism in a way of
like I basically majored in sociology at CAW and people
always like, how are you.
Speaker 2 (29:54):
Going to use that?
Speaker 3 (29:55):
And it's like that's literally what my career has come
to me. And so like when you're looking at the
wa covering it. It's like you do almost need like
to at least take a class on intersectionality because there's
so many factors happening. It's not as easy to just
show up and cover it. Like a men's hockey league. Right,
you maybe have some international like topics that we talk about,
but it's not you're not just talking about predominantly mostly
(30:16):
a bunch of white guys, a bunch of white dis guys, right,
and you so like when you look at our league
and you're talking about race and gender and sexuality. Right,
and at a moment in time when an election is
coming and a star player who is white, who people
are saying has basically saved our league, which we know
is not true, which is also coming out of time
where the growth of our league has been like bursting
(30:38):
at the seams. And also like the players are so
damn excited for our young players to come in. Like
once a player comes into our league, like there ares
that's what our league does. It's like you're a part
of us now, so we're rallying up everybody to be good,
Like it doesn't matter who you are, Angel Caitlin, Like
in all the rookies, we're like, you're ours and now
you're a part of a legacy that says you speak
(31:00):
up for social justice, right like, we don't just ignore
these issues. And so I think we're seeing some of
that all swirly in the players and in the zyguy
absolutely this season. Yeah, And I would apposed Jathy could
have done a better job of putting a steak in
the ground.
Speaker 1 (31:15):
Yeah, I completely agree, And I think in the position
that she's in, it's necessary to do the work to
be able to do that, you know, in a very
honest moment. I'll tell you a bunch of years ago,
I remember I was talking to my buddy Scoop Jackson,
who's a longtime basketball writer ESPN guy, and I was
telling him that someone had messaged me and said, how
come you wear LGBTQ plus ally shirts like love Winds
and Rainbow stuff and you'll you never wear anything for
(31:37):
like Black History Month? And I said, I feel like
I would be like made fun of or accused of appropriating,
or it doesn't feel comfortable in the same way to
be an ally to that group. But I don't know
why I am an ally, but I don't It doesn't
feel the same, and I remember talking to Scoop about
it and saying, why does it feel like allyship for
LGBTQIA plus comes easily and is an allyship sometimes in
(32:01):
terms of race is so much more complicated and fraught.
And one of the things he said that was sort
of a wake up for me and for a lot
of other white women and white people, I think, is
that there's an expectation of a certain amount of work
having been done that oftentimes isn't so if you come
to the space and hope that they'll be happy that
you're an ally, but you don't show that you really
(32:24):
get it, there's a frustration there.
Speaker 2 (32:26):
Of how are we still here?
Speaker 1 (32:28):
And I felt then years later in twenty twenty, when
everything happened with George Floyd, that was writ large right.
It was yeah, we've been saying this, and yeah, you
don't get to just read white fragility now and then
be like, oh, got it, My bad. You should have
been here, you should have known this, you should have
asked about this, this should have mattered to you before now.
(32:49):
And I think for a lot of white people who
think they're doing their best like that sucks to feel like, oh,
I haven't been.
Speaker 2 (32:56):
Doing my best.
Speaker 1 (32:57):
There's a lot more I should have done that I
think doesn't happen quite as much in the queer community
right And it's not a simple explanation, but I love
that you said that, and I do think that's maybe
why Kathy felt like this is easy breezy to say
you're included and we love you, and struggles a little
(33:18):
bit to speak to the nuance of the race issues
that the league is dealing with. There is so much
intersectionality that that has dominated so much of the conversation
around the league this year, and it's necessary and helpful
and it's moving us forward, but it also at times
has kept us from like straight up talking about basketball.
Speaker 2 (33:32):
Which has been amazing.
Speaker 1 (33:35):
I do want to make sure we talk about the
WNBA Finals while you're here, too, because you have been
playing in these games against these teams and players as
recently as just a couple of weeks ago, so you
are uniquely positioned to talk to us about some of this.
And you mentioned you played for Cheryl Reeve game one
and two. The links were playing catchup almost from the jump.
If you're in the huddle Wednesday, what do you think,
Coach Reeve is telling her team before tip off about
(33:55):
not allowing the Liberty to get off to a hot
start in Game three and start that again.
Speaker 3 (33:59):
Oh, they've watched a Toten film on why they had
the bad starts and what they did, so they better
come out of the cannon, like protecting home court. So
I know she's you know, probably already used a lot
of the cuss words, but she's also will building new ones.
Is like let's go, like, we're not playing around. We're
at home now, like we need to handle business, you know.
(34:20):
And the Links usually are a team that gets out
to good starts, so it was a little shocking to
see how much New York jumped on them. But New
York's at home, so like that was to be expected,
and I wasn't expecting the seventeen point ly, But she's
definitely telling them like pick it the fuck up, or
you're coming out or calling time out, like we can't
we can't keep doing that and expect to win the championship,
(34:40):
right because we're playing a really good team.
Speaker 1 (34:42):
You keep mentioning that the series has shifts that will
make a big difference. We're going to be in Minneapolis
at the Target Center for Games three and four. What's
the biggest difference you see with the Links now getting
to play on home court.
Speaker 3 (34:52):
I mean getting that home court advantage, in the crowd
behind you, sleeping in your own bed, all the things
we know about the comforts of being home. That offers
you that the crowd is behind you, you have a
little more slag in your step when you're in your
own space, like these are two of the best fan
bases in the league. Hands down. Target Center is an
amazing place to play, So I think that's a big one.
(35:13):
It also puts the liberty of like when you're playing
against a home crowd, like silencing them is the best
feeling ever. So I'm curious to see how I think
the liberty are going to come out. They've got to
be thinking still game three, right, Like we have to
steal one in order to get back to Barclays, and
so their whole mission is like game three is ours.
They stole the first one at our house, we got
(35:34):
to still the first one at their house.
Speaker 1 (35:36):
I was listening to a Touch More with Sue Birt
and Meghan Rappino, great podcasts, and they were talking about
how lucky we all are to be watching Ifisa Collier
and Brianna Stewart and Asia Wilson and all these players
at the same time. They're all sort of peaking around
the same time, and there hasn't really been that moment
in w's history before. You had some folks like Maya
Moore and d T at the same time, but they
(35:57):
were six or seven years between those two.
Speaker 2 (36:00):
These are some really really.
Speaker 1 (36:01):
Spectacular players, all playing at the top of their game
around the same time. What's been your reaction to playing
against people like Brianna and Fi and Asia and also
just watching them from afar?
Speaker 3 (36:14):
Oh. My reaction to playing against them is fuck, yeah,
it's fine, right, Like it's so much fun. Sometimes, Like
something happened in the game yesterday and I was like,
yepes do we did that to me? Like it's like
you're trying to make an entry pass from the wing
and you're like I could totally make this, and Stewey
just like jumps up and steals it, and you're like
what the fuck, Like you're so long, like how did
(36:34):
you do that? Like so kind of reminiscing, I'm like, yep,
I've been there, Like sorry to teach them, even a
Courtney whoever turned it over seeing Asia just as like
we're growing up or we're getting to watch yeah, like
the Mayas, the Michael Jordan's, like the level of talent
and the way what I love is the way everyone
knows how good these players are and they're scheming to
(36:55):
stop them and yet they can't stop them. Like that's
the greatness we're getting to watch. And I didn't know, honestly,
Nefisa was gonna be that good, Like she was drafted
to Minnesota. I played with her and Sil for one year,
so Sil was more the main player. Fee was solid.
She wasn't putting the ball on the floor quite as well.
Her three wasn't as consistent. She hadn't yet perfected that
turnaround off of one foot and so.
Speaker 2 (37:17):
The feet away, the feed away what I call it
the feet away jumper. So watching Fee.
Speaker 3 (37:23):
Like just develop into like an MVP candidate has made
me so proud and so happy for her because she's
a phenomenal human being and just like, oh, you're you're
like MVP good, Like I didn't know you were going
to be that good. Like when Soil left, it was like, oh,
Sophia was like, oh, y'all didn't know, I'm letting you know.
And then I played with John Quell at Connecticut and
just her ability to shoot the three, her ability to
(37:46):
get inside her length. And so the thing I've been
saying when I watched like now that I can just
be a fan too, is I'm like, it's not fair.
Like I literally just keep saying it's not fair. Are
you guys watching this? Like my wife's get tired in there?
I'm like, Stewie is the five right now, she just
brought the ball of the This is not fair.
Speaker 1 (38:04):
That's all I think about is like when I was
in high school, I was six feet tall and I
was a center. Yes, like sometimes I was a power
forward in AAU, I was a forward, but like I
would right now, I would be a point guard.
Speaker 2 (38:15):
I would have to have insane ball handling skills. And
Sy're like, what.
Speaker 3 (38:19):
No, Yes, Like that's the era why you've been doing this.
Speaker 1 (38:23):
Yes, it's like the unicorn era of the NBA has
hit the w NBA full force right now and it's
all in unicorns.
Speaker 3 (38:29):
Aye Wilson is coming off of staggers and like, what no,
And you don't do that, like stay down there so
we can figure out how to double team you and
do something. She's like, no, I'm coming on with staggers.
Now I put the ball on the floor. Like these
big people are.
Speaker 1 (38:41):
Like position, let's basketball though, that's my favorite. That's that's
I love watching bigs that can move and shoot and
handle the ball, like, oh my god.
Speaker 2 (38:48):
It's just it's just the series has been so.
Speaker 1 (38:51):
Fun because there are so many players like that and
it's so cool to watch. And also I am not
at all wanting to be a coach in this series.
No all how to top post unicorns.
Speaker 3 (39:03):
It's fun. It's been really interesting on the defensive side,
like on Minnesota has gone to their really small lineup
to counter because like Sabrina is just getting threes in
transition and it's like, I played it. I know it's like, okay,
guard your matchup, but what do you do when Stewie
brings the ball down and the point guard goes to
stop Stewie because that's our job. But then he's a
post player gonna get out to Sabrina on the wing
in time? Like no, so yeah, that's what the link said.
(39:26):
So I'm like, let's go small so we can at
least keep a body on a body so fun.
Speaker 1 (39:31):
We're so looking forward to Game three. It's going to
be a blast. I've kept you too long. Thank you
so much for coming on. I know you said you
don't want people to ask you what's next, so I won't.
I'll just say that you are one of the most
thoughtful and brilliant people I know, so I'm dying to
see where you're going to direct that brain power and
that influence and all of that.
Speaker 2 (39:47):
So let us know when you figure it out.
Speaker 3 (39:49):
I will give us a call.
Speaker 2 (39:50):
We'll have you back.
Speaker 3 (39:52):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (39:56):
We hope you love that conversation with Lesia Clarendon as
much as we did. Tomorrow we'll be revisiting another favorite
convo from twenty twenty four, this one with soccer stars
and media moguls Sam Muis and Becky Sowerbrun See you then,
Good Game with Sarah Spain is an iHeart women's sports
production in partnership with Deep Blue Sports and Entertainment. You
can find us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or
(40:19):
wherever you get your podcasts. Production by Wonder Media Network,
our producers are Alex Azzie and Misha Jones. Our executive
producers are Christina Everett, Jesse Katz, Jenny Kaplan, and Emily Rudder.
Our editors are Emily Rudder, Britney Martinez, Grace Lynch and
Lindsay Cradowell. Production assistants from Lucy Jones and I'm Your
Host Sarah Spain
Host
Sarah Spain
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