Bulletin Board Material with Jayna Hefford

With the PWHL returning tomorrow, Executive Vice President of Hockey Operations Jayna Hefford joined Sarah to talk about the league from launch to season three, how learning from the history of women’s hockey led to the PWHL's success, and the thinking behind the expansion process that sent several household names to new teams in far flung places. Plus, Sarah provides a team-by-team preview of all eight PWHL teams, including the new additions -- expansion sides Seattle and Vancouver.

• Check out the recent politically-inspired comparison from Art But Make It Sports here
• Watch the video of how hockey rinks get painted here
• The PWHL schedule can be found here
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• Follow Sarah on social! Bluesky: @sarahspain.com Instagram: @Spain2323
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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Good Game with Sarah Spain, where if we're
talking hooking in five holes, that means p WHL season
is back. It's Thursday, November twentieth, and on today's show.
While producer Alex and I are schmoozing with folks on
Radio Row ahead of the NWSL Championship, we're also making
sure everyone is prepped for the start of the PWHL season,
which gets underway tomorrow. First, a team by team previews

(00:21):
so you know all the stakes, stars, stats and stories
ahead of opening night. Then earlier this week, I caught
up with the league's executive vice president of Hockey Operations,
Jana Hefford, to talk PWHL from launch to season three.

Speaker 2 (00:34):
We talk about how the.

Speaker 1 (00:35):
History of women's hockey led to the launch of the league,
the creativity and innovation behind the league's most unique rules,
and the thinking behind the expansion process that sent several
household names to new teams in far flung places. It's
everything you need to know ahead of PWHL Season three,
and it's all coming up right after this.

Speaker 2 (00:58):
All right, slices, welcome back.

Speaker 1 (01:00):
What's the puck dropping on season three of the PWHL
Friday Night let's do a quick preview of each of
the league's eight squads using my patented four s's steaks, stars, stats,
and stories. And I do want to quickly shout out
the pwhl dot com site and the writers over there,
because I leaned heavily on their content to put together
these previews. That site, by the way, is not to

(01:21):
be confused with PWHL dot com, which leads you to
Pigeon Wholesale, a handmade linen brand for all your Napkins,
du veays and other linen needs. Nope, we're talking the
PWHL dot com alrighty. Then no better place to start
than the two time defending champion Minnesota Frost, who have
taken home the Walter Cup in both of the league's

(01:41):
first two seasons, and in both years the Frost won
from the number four seat, barely getting into the playoffs.
The stakes for this team are either higher than the
stadium set to host Denver sum at FC's inaugural game,
or lower than the bar the Trump administration has set
for human decency. It all sort of depends how you
look at it, kind of win or bust when all
you've done is win. But they've also set up such

(02:03):
a tremendous start to their franchise, there isn't a ton
of pressure to prove or establish themselves. The biggest challenge
for them might just be to continue to win with
more teams than ever and talent more spread out around
the league. The Frost Stars include one of the architects
of the PWHL captain, three time Olympic medalist, eleven time
World Championship medalist, voiceover actor, and inside out to one

(02:25):
of the faces of women's hockey, forward Kendall Coinscofield. The
team protected her along with alternate captain defense woman Least
Deckline during the expansion process. Steckline is another longtime US
national team standout with three Olympic medals and nine World
Championship medals tour name. The Frost's other alternate captain, Minnesota
native and forward Kelly Panic is a two time Olympic

(02:46):
medalist and seven time World Championship medalist who even has
her own beer.

Speaker 2 (02:51):
Been there, Won That. You also got to keep an.

Speaker 1 (02:53):
Eye out for former first overall pick and the first
ever PWHL playoff MVP forward Taylor Heisi.

Speaker 2 (03:00):
Also new addition.

Speaker 1 (03:01):
Veteran defender Sidney Morin who comes to the Frost from
the Boston Fleet and before that played over one hundred
games in the Swedish Women's Hockey League, where she was
twice named defender of the Year. Also Maddie Rooney and
Nicole Hensley. They split time between the pipes, with Rooney
getting four more starts over the past two seasons, and
Rooney just signed a three year extension to stay in Minnesota.

(03:22):
Team also returns head coach Ken Clee for a third season,
and they've added newly inducted Hall of Famer Brandon.

Speaker 2 (03:27):
Decker as an assistant coach.

Speaker 1 (03:30):
So the story of this Minnesota Frost team for me
is adjustment to roster losses and league expansion while they
build on previous success. They've got nine back to back
champions returning to their roster, including twenty twenty four Rookie
of the Year forward Grace Zumwinkle and controversial player Britta
curl Salmi, who was re signed ahead of the season.
You might remember the forward received a chorus of booze

(03:51):
throughout her first season in the league, which stems back
to social media activity that included liking anti trends media
posts and online support of Kyle Rittenhouse, among other things. Finally,
the stat to know for this team is four as
in the fourth and final playoff seed. Despite entering the
postseason as the fourth and final seed in each of
the first two seasons of the PWHL, the Frost still

(04:12):
came out on top both years. As Gotham's Jayden Shaw
would say, underdog's my ass. Next up the team that
fell to the Frost in last year's finals. The Ottawa
Charge stakes are high and sphincters are clenched for this team.
They are hungry to avenge last year's lost to the
Frost in a final series that saw each of the
four games go to overtime.

Speaker 2 (04:32):
They were that close.

Speaker 1 (04:34):
Stars include captain Brian Jenner, a Cornell grad WOOOO, three
time Olympic medalist, eleven time World Championship medalist, and the
twenty twenty two Olympic MVP for Team Canada. Also alternate
captain forward Emily Clark. She's a two time Olympic medalist
and nine time World Championship medalist. She signed a two
year extension in the offseason to stick with the Charge,

(04:54):
with the AP reporting that Clark is now the league's
highest paid player. Defender Joscelyn the Rock, the other alternate
captain and three time Olympic medalists twelve time World Championship medalists,
was traded by Toronto to Ottawa last season. Also, Jen
are not the only Cornell Grod on this roster. Defense
Woman Rory Gilday, the fifth overall pick in this year's draft,
will suit up with the Charge this season. Two Between

(05:15):
the pipes, it's Gwyneth Phillips, who started the season as
a backup and ended the season as the Alana Class
playoff MVP, despite her team coming up short in the finals.
And you know an MVP is good when they're from
the losing team. The story of this Ottawa Charge team
is heart or is it cardiac arrest? The Charge needed
the final day of the regular season last year to

(05:36):
secure their spot in the postseason, where they upset the
top ranked Montreal Victoire. Fans are hoping they'll earn their
spot in the playoffs with a little more breathing room
this year, and they're hoping the team's future stadium situation
has resolved so there's a big enough barn to hold
all the Charge fans going forward. The stat to know
seventy one The Charge scored just seventy one goals in

(05:56):
thirty regular season games last year, tied with New York
for the fewest goals in the league. Of course, New
York last place, and the Charge made the postseason, so
they'll want to improve their scoring. Let's get to last
year's regular season best to the Montreal Victoire first. The
stakes for this team. Two straight seasons of semi final
losses means the pressure is on for a Victoire team

(06:18):
with a ton of talent but no titles or even
runner up seasons to show for the team. Star is
as bright as you can get. Captain clutch Maurie Philip Puhlan,
the reigning PWHL MVP and Forward of the Year, captain
of Team Canada since twenty fifteen, a four time Olympic
medalist and thirteen time World Championship medalist, perhaps the greatest

(06:38):
of all time. You've also got goaltender of the Year
last season, a two time Olympic medalist and six time
World Championship medalist, and Renee Debien and forward Laura Stacy,
a two time Olympic medalist and seven time World Championship medalist.
They join MPP in signing extensions in the offseason, ensuring
that the Victoire's core three stay in Montreal. Alternate captain

(06:59):
Aaron Ambrose, who was the twenty twenty four Defender of
the Year, also returns for the VICTIIR and head coach
Corey Chvry, who was last season's p WHL Coach of
the Year. She'll be back on the bench, and the
team added Hockey Hall of Famer and Canadian national team
assistant Caroline will Let as a full time assistant coach.
The story of this Montreal team is going to be
whether they can finish After finishing the last two regular

(07:21):
seasons in second and first place, respectively, but getting bounced
both times in the opening round of the playoffs, They'll
need to show they can translate regular season success to
the postseason. And of course the story will be Pucks
engash it because we love following the adventures of the
first couple of Hockey MPP and Laura Stacey. The stat
for this team zero as in zero finals series. Time

(07:44):
to get to that next level, VICTIIR. Speaking of getting
to the next level, let's talk Toronto Scepters. Last year,
for the second straight year, the Scepter saw their season
end at the hands of eventual champs, the Minnesota Frost
Puff Puff pass because stakes are high as they look.

Speaker 2 (07:59):
To prove they can get passed the opening round.

Speaker 1 (08:01):
Finally, stars include returning alternate captain defender Renata Fast, last
year's PWHL Defender of the Year, a two time Olympic
medalist and seven time World Championship medalist, plus new scepters
player elite defender Ellis Shelton, an Olympic gold medalist and
multi time World Championship medalist who finished as a top
five scorer at her position in each of the last

(08:22):
two seasons playing with New York. You've also got three
time Olympic medalist and eleven time World Championship medalist Natalie Spooner,
who missed half of last season with an ACL injury.
She'll looked to return to the fine form she showed
in her first year in Toronto, when she scored twenty
goals in twenty seven games to lead the entire PWHL
in goals and points and was named the league's first
ever MVP. You've also got captain forward Blair Turnbull, alternate

(08:46):
captain defender Ali Monroe, and forward Daryl Watts. Who finished
third in p WHL scoring last season. They're all also
back for the Scepters. Gmgina Kingsbury and coach Troy Ryan,
who also head up the Canadian national team bench, are
both returning for their third year with the team. The
story of this team, I gotta say for the Scepters
it's betting big. This is a team that made some

(09:08):
bold moves on draft Day this year, sending their first
and fourth round picks to New York in exchange for Shelton,
and sending goaltender Kristen Campbell to Vancouver in exchange for
a second round pick and a third round swap. The
stat for Toronto won as in one Sarah Nurse, who
is no longer with Toronto after being left unprotected in
the expansion draft. The two time Olympic medalist and six

(09:29):
time World Championship medalists opted to sign with the Vancouver
Golden Eyes, one of two.

Speaker 2 (09:34):
New teams joining the league this year.

Speaker 1 (09:36):
Onto the Boston Fleet, who found themselves on the outside
looking in last season come playoff time. Even though they
finished with the same exact number of points as the
Charge in Frost, they were kept out of the postseason
because a tiebreaker went the way of the other two teams. Now,
while expectations aren't as high as they are for other teams,
this squad sure would like to get back to the
finals as they did in the inaugural season and prove

(09:57):
that letting Hillary Knight walk away won't curse them forever.
Plenty of stars still on this Boston team, though it's
impossible not to lead. With the loss of captain and
captain of Team USA, Hillary Knight, the Fleet opted not
to protect Night, one of the faces of women's hockey
for nearly two decades, and she was scooped up to
lead the expansion Seattle Torrent. The Fleet instead chose to

(10:19):
protect the trio of Aaron Frankel, Meghan Keller, and Alina Mueller. Frankel,
a goaltender with five World Championship medals to her name,
leads the league in saves over the last two seasons
while putting up the second most minutes. Keller, a defense
woman with two Olympic medals and nine World Championship medals
on her resume, and Mueller, a forward and member of
the Swiss national team. All three of them signed extensions

(10:39):
with the team in the offseason. So they're happy to
have that trio sticking around. Keller will also fill the
very big shoes left by Night assuming captain honors. The
team used the fourth protected spot that they were awarded
to keep sixth round pick in the twenty twenty four
draft forward Shay Maloney in Boston. Couple new additions to
watch for include two time Walter Cup winner Liz Sheppers,

(11:01):
she of the title, securing overtime goal in last year's
finals Game four. She was stolen away from the Minnesota
Frost and forward and French national team player Chloe Urard
Bouchet from the Sirens. Ur Bouchet and Mueller have history
starring together in college at Northeastern, so local Boston fans
should be excited to see those two reunited.

Speaker 2 (11:21):
Also, head coach Courtney.

Speaker 1 (11:22):
Kessel left to lead Princeton's team, so new head coach
Chris Sparr will be behind the bench for the Fleet
this season. The story for Boston is moving on without
Captain America Hillary Knight. We were shocked when we found
out she wasn't protected in the expansion draft, and we
weren't alone in fact. During the Team USA summit in
New York, Alex caught up with Frost captain Kendall Coin
Schofield and got her thoughts on Boston leaving Hillary unprotected.

Speaker 2 (11:46):
Take a listen.

Speaker 1 (11:48):
I'm still shocked find I couldn't believe it.

Speaker 3 (11:53):
I was like, wait, I'm seeing something wrong.

Speaker 4 (11:55):
I must be reading the wrong the wrong thing here.

Speaker 1 (11:58):
Like what.

Speaker 3 (12:00):
I was personally shocked. I'm not a GM, I'm just
the player. But she would be protected on my team
through and through.

Speaker 4 (12:09):
So she'll be incredible for Seattle. And what a kickstart
to a market. Huh do you think you get a
Hillary night? You're like, nah, I won't get her, but
here you got her. Yeah, I congress like it's awesome, right,
Like so I'm happy for her, and but yeah, I was.

Speaker 3 (12:25):
I was shocked, to say the least.

Speaker 1 (12:26):
A good season will help heal jilted Fleet fans dreading
seeing Night in a Seattle Jersey. The stats know for Boston,
this team dropped five of their last six games last
year en route to a disappointing fifth place out of
six teams. A new season will help them move past
the lingering memories of that.

Speaker 2 (12:44):
Late season choke.

Speaker 1 (12:46):
Let's move on to the last of the original six teams,
the New York Sirens two seasons two finishes outside the
playoff picture. Stakes are high for this team to prove
that they can compete with the rest of the league.
New York Stars start with last year's PWHL Rookie of
the Year and co leading scorer team Canada forward Sarah Fillier,
who provides the Sirens with hope that big time draft

(13:07):
picks can make an impact right away because they'll hope
for the same from first overall pick Christina calton Kova,
a check player who played her college hockey at Colgate,
setting school records for most goals, game winning goals, and
power play goals. Also Casey O'Brien, the third overall pick
out of Wisconsin, where she won the twenty twenty five
Patty Casmyer Memorial Award, given to the best player in

(13:29):
college hockey. Team captain Mike Zandi Hart signed an extension
in the offseason, but the team did lose alternate captains
Alex Carpenter and Ella Shelton in the off season. Head
coach Greg Fargo is back for his second season with
the Sirens. He came from Colgate, where he coached calton
Kova and two other Sirens players. The story for this
team is very simple. Make the postseason for the first

(13:51):
time in franchise history, and the stat twenty nine as
in twenty nine points in thirty games for Philly a
last year who had thirteen goals and sixteen ass for
the last place Sirens. How good can she be in
her sophomore campaign. Finally, a quick look at the two
expansion teams, Starting with the Seattle Torrent. They boast captain

(14:11):
Hillary Knight, likely on a scorched earth tour to make
sure the Fleet looks silly for letting her go, especially
after she finished last season tied for the most points
in the league. She's joined by fellow forward's former Sirens
alternate captain Alex Carpenter and three time World Championship medalist
Hannah Bilka, who scored eleven points in just sixteen games
as a rookie last season. The team will play at
Climate Pledgarina, hopeing to build on the popularity of building

(14:34):
mates the Seattle Storm and attract some hockey fans from
the NHL's Seattle Kraken as well. Finally, the Vancouver Goldeneyes
Stars include the aforementioned Sarah Nurse, one of hockey's biggest
names who has her own Barbie was the cover girl
for November's El Canada issue, was the first woman on
the cover of an EA Sports NHL game, and boasts
an Olympic gold and three World Championship medals. Then there's

(14:57):
Claire Thompson, an Olympic medallist and three time World Champapionship
medalist who set the Olympic Ice Hockey record for points
by a defense woman at the twenty twenty two Games.
Won a title with the Minnesota Frost last year, was
a finalist for Defender of the Year. Oh and just
happens to have the rest of her medical school journey
waiting for her when she's done with hockey. The Golden
Eyes will play at Pacific Coliseum, former home of the

(15:17):
Vancouver Canucks. All right, I think that's pretty much all
you need to know that there might be a few
more things and for that Jana Hefford stick around.

Speaker 2 (15:26):
Talk to Jana after this.

Speaker 1 (15:35):
Joining us now, she's a four time Olympic gold medalist,
seven time World champion, one time Olympic silver medalist, and
five time World runner up for Team Canada. Now the
current executive vice president of hockey operations for the PWHL,
a Canada Sports Hall of Famer and Hockey Hall of
Famer who played in and then later became commissioner of
the CWHL. That league's MVP Trophy was even named in

(15:56):
her honor. A Kingston, Ontario native, she's a mom of three,
part to Team USA olympian Kathleen Kof, reminding us once
again that players from those two sides only get along
when they're partners.

Speaker 2 (16:07):
It's Jana hefferd Hi, Jana Hey, Sarah.

Speaker 1 (16:10):
We love on this show talking about how the only
time a player from one team gets invited to a
wedding from players from the other is if they have
a partner from that team. Like we like to ask
MVP and Laura and others about like how many Americans
got the invite and then we found that the loophole
was always that the American had to be married to
or with a Canadian partner. So we're still working on
defrosting negotiations between the two rivalries, but y'all are helping with.

Speaker 2 (16:34):
The case, which we appreciate.

Speaker 3 (16:35):
Hazeing.

Speaker 1 (16:36):
Before we get to hockey and all things hockey, I
have to ask you about Ringett because I read that
that was your first on ice endeavor and I have
never heard of ringett.

Speaker 3 (16:46):
What is that? So ringette is a sport similar to hockey,
I'll say, but no blade on the end of your
stick and there's a rubber ring. So typically girls would
play ring at and boys would play hockey. I from
the time I was very young, always wanted to play hockey.
I have an older brother who played hockey. Night in
Canada is a thing, and so when I said I

(17:07):
want to play hockey, my parents actually put me in
a ring at first, and I think I played one
game and I said, this is not hockey, Like there's
different rules. You can't skate with the ring across the
blue line, you have to pass it. So there was
just some different parts of the game that I don't
think I knew ringet existed until I played a game
and then I could. It was so confused why it
wasn't hockey. So immediately they were able to get me

(17:29):
on a hockey team and the rest was history after that.

Speaker 1 (17:32):
So you said, no blade on the stick, so it's
more like a pole that you put inside the ring
and then you move the ring by correct Just play hockey.
Just stop making things for women and play hockey. Okay,
so we've got opening night for the PWHL on Friday,
matchup between the league's newest teams, the Seattle Torrent and
the Vancouver Golden Eyes. We're going to get to all
things PWHL season three in just a sect, But I
do want to go back and figure out how we

(17:53):
got here with a thriving, growing, expanding, successful women's pro
hockey league, because it took a couple iterations to get here.
And you have a very intimate knowledge of the history
of women's pro club hockey. You know, I'm using quotes
around pro here because sometimes it wasn't quite professional. But
you played in three different leagues, scoring four hundred and
thirty nine goals in four hundred and eighteen games, including

(18:14):
a CWHL record forty four goals in eight o nine.

Speaker 2 (18:17):
What stood out to about those different leagues? What worked
and what didn't?

Speaker 3 (18:22):
Yeah, more than a few iterations, for sure. You know
what I started playing. You know, we call the professional,
but it really wasn't professional. It happened to be the
best players, but there was nothing as it related to
salary or resources, or infrastructure or adequate ice time. You know,
volunteer coaches. You know, there was no fans. Really, it

(18:43):
was friends and family, and but we were very proud
because it was the best players in the world and
it still was good hockey. So I played in a
few different leagues that would start up and they'd fail,
and then realize, well, we need somewhere for these people
to play, so we'd start another league and it would fail.
My most you know, I think close this example was
after I had retired, I came back as the interim

(19:03):
commissioner of the Canadian Women's Hockey League, which I had
played in as a player, but after retiring, they asked
me to come back and take on that role, and
very quickly I understood and realized that that wasn't ever
going to reach what we had all hoped as it
related to a professional league. There was a business structure
that never would have support a pro league. You know,

(19:23):
it was more of a charity based donation. Who can
help out to keep this league going? Again, players really
weren't being compensated to play, and so unfortunately the board
made a decision they had to shut down the league
because it just was no longer going to be viable
and as the interim commissioner, I had to actually deliver
that message to the players, which was really hard. Many

(19:44):
of them were my ex teammates, my friends. So that
was one of the most difficult times of my career certainly,
was to have to deliver that message, to have to
be a part of that. And I also think a
huge crash course in the business of sport that I
never could have paid for anywhere else, you know, I
learned how you have to shut down the league and
everything needs to happen. But through that, I always still

(20:07):
believed that something better was out there and we could
do better than that, and so that that really was
what kept me going and I tried to share that positivity,
but it doesn't take away the hurt the disappointment that
players felt at that time. So the league shut down,
and that was when the players got together and decided
that they needed to, you know, have a more active

(20:28):
role in this. And I think one of the first
people they spoke to was Billy Jean King and Alana
Class always always yeah, And one of the first things
Billy said was, well, do you have a players union
or an association? Because if you're not collectively together and united,
you can't affect any change. You've got to be united
if you want to see change. So they formed a
player's association and this all happened in I think May

(20:53):
of twenty nineteen. I got to call in August from
Alana class in Kendall Coin Schofield and I'd played against
Kendall Knewer Meta once or twice but really didn't know
where that well. And they called me out of the
blue and said, hey, would you consider running the PWHPA,
which was the Professional and Hockey Players Association. And my
immediate thought was, I don't know if I want to

(21:15):
go back there, like this was just hard and sad
and disappointing and all of those things and those emotions.
And then my next question then was like, is this
really what the players want me to do, Like they
want me to take on this role. And Kendall said, yes,
they want you to do it. And that was the
point when I said, Okay, I'll do this, because I

(21:36):
knew the players wanted me to do it, and even
when I got involved after playing, I only wanted to
do it to make it better for the players, and
many ways I still felt like a hockey player again.
Friends and teammates that were still playing, and so once
I knew that, I jumped on board and it was incredible.
Four and a half years. It was hard, it was challenging,
it was inspiring. We started with nothing. There was no

(22:00):
money in a bank, there wasn't even a bank account.
There was no equipment, there was no ice time, there
was no teams, like really ground level. All we had
was two hundred of the best players in the world
and Billy, Gena and Alana who wanted to help lead
this or advise this group. And over the course of
those four years, we evolved from you know, having a

(22:20):
few exhibition games to having a tour, to the Dream
Gap Tour, to bringing in sponsorship, to selling tickets, selling
out arenas, getting broadcast time. And it was amazing because
we really had no infrastructure. There was myself and a
few other people that were working full time jobs and
just helping out because they really wanted to see this happen.
The players were not being paid, They were sacrificing periods

(22:41):
of their career to be a part of this movement
because they always believed that, you know, there was something
better out there and they could ask for more, and
you know, in the words of Billy like not accept
the crumbs, and the problem was, over four years, it
becomes really hard to keep people together and united. And
you know, Kendall coin Schofield was a huge, you know,

(23:03):
the leader for the players who I got to work
very closely with, and really, you know, cherish that opportunity
because Kendall's, you know, an amazing person and you know,
this wouldn't have happened with billiing a lot, it wouldn't
happen without Kendall, and so, you know, I really look
back on those years as being so incredible and so powerful.
And there were moments when we thought we were going
to get there. There's moments where we didn't know what

(23:24):
to do. But there was a moment during COVID. Up
until then, I think we just hoped that somebody else
would come in and start a league and it would
be amazing. And there was a point in time where
we decided that, you know what, nobody's going to come
and do this for us. We have to do this ourselves.
And so we got connected with a mutual friend who
worked at Deloitte here in Canada, and he said, you know,

(23:47):
I think we could help, you know, help you guys
navigate this, and so we brought some people together. Then
we started working on a business plan, and I think
one of the most powerful parts of this story is
that all of these women were reinvesting in themselves. They
weren't taking any payment. Every dollar that came in through
sponsorship or ticket sales was put back into the association

(24:08):
to try to build out this business plan, to try
to get us to the next level. And through that work,
we were able to talk about what we wanted this
to be, what would need to be true for a
league to exist, what would we be happy with from
a salary perspective, from an infrastructure, From a number of games,
we had a very big you know, the vision became
very clear of this what the players wanted, and that

(24:30):
was important that the players had a voice in all
of this.

Speaker 4 (24:32):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (24:32):
Ultimately, all that work led to you know, Billion and
Alana bringing Mark Walter to the table and getting him
to invest in this league and launch this league along
with Billion, Alana and Kimbra, and you know, it's been
an incredible launch since day one. But those four and
a half years were incredibly hard, but incredibly inspiring.

Speaker 1 (24:53):
They were necessary and necessary. Yeah, Yeah, to restart it.
What we can hear your partner in the background dinking
around in the kitchen, which you know. Honestly, it's like
a microcosm macrocosm of what you had to do at
that time, because one of the things that had to
happen was for people from both sides of the border
to decide that we're going to be stronger together. And
we've seen this across the space of hockey, essentially like

(25:14):
the need to burn it all down in order to
get what you actually want. And you mentioned at the
time you were leading up the Players Association, you were
really attentive to the player side of things, their needs,
their rights, trying to get a league that will accurately
offer up what they deserve. But then when the PWHL
actually launched, is you're on the league side of things
now working for the owners. How did your experiences repping

(25:35):
the players shape the discussions that you had with the
ownership side and the decisions that you helped to make
about how the league would look.

Speaker 3 (25:42):
Well, I think that's part of the power of this
story too, is that you know, I can't coming from
the player's side. You know I had a built in
trust just from being a player, but then over the
course of those years, really getting to know the women,
understanding what they really wanted, what they thought could be built,
how they wanted to see it happen, building those relationships.

(26:04):
And I think it's a little bit unique too because
Billy and Alana were with the players, and then they
bring in Mark Walter and kimber Walter to the table,
Stan cast and Royce Cohen, who were integral to this
from the Lakers or sorry, the Dodgers team and the
Lakers now, and so there was a real sense of
I think trust amongst everyone involved, and even from an

(26:26):
ownership perspective, they understood that this was a player led
movement and the players needed to be at the forefront
of this. Doesn't mean they got to make every decision, obviously,
but it meant that their their you know, their thoughts
and their ideas were important. And so when it came
time to launch, and Stan asked me, you know, do
you want to be on the player's side or to
come in the league side. You know, the opportunity to

(26:49):
influence how the league was going to launch. Knowing the
vision I thought was really important and they thought was
really important, and they were fully, you know, supportive of
me coming over and leading hockey for the league and
then the CBA. You know, I wasn't a part of
the negotiations there, but all of that was part of
making sure that, you know, the players were at the

(27:09):
forefront and they were being heard. And so even now,
you know, although you know, we have moments certainly where
we feel like maybe we're on different sides, at the
end of the day, we had this history together and
this trust and these relationships that are going to continue
to grow, and I would argue that we probably have
the best relationship of any league between our union and
the league right now. You know, maybe not always the case,

(27:32):
but right now, you know, there's a lot of respect
going both ways.

Speaker 1 (27:35):
Yes, I want to ask, you know, we had Kendall
Coinschofield on talking about some of the things that were
a priority. What were some of your priorities in making
the PWHL the best pro league get and making sure
it didn't suffer from some of the same issues that
the other iterations did.

Speaker 3 (27:47):
Well. I think first and foremost, we needed the best
players and so that was critical that all the top
players were going to come and play. Secondly, I think
we wanted to ensure that players got dispersed in a
way that you know, previously it was like, well, I
want to play in this city because my parents live
there and my family's there, and then by the way,

(28:08):
this teammate like, she'll come play there too, and so
we really wanted to say, like, that can't be the
way this league works. This is a professional league. You
get drafted to a market that wants you and believes
you can help win, and so that was really important
to us. Just the professionalism, the resources that we're going
to be provided was really important. And you know it
seems like little things, but you think about the food,

(28:31):
you think about the way you know, people travel, all
those things that as hockey players we just never had.
You're sort of skeptical about what it could look like
because you've had bad experiences, and so all of that
was really important as well as we launched the league.
And so that's where me understanding what their vision was
and their aspirations were really important. And we knew this

(28:52):
league would only survive if we could put the best
players on the ice and there would be a competitive
balance across the league where teams challenge for championships every year.

Speaker 1 (29:01):
You played a hand in the league implementing some new
rules which I love, including jail break goals, which is
if a team scores when they're down a player in
the penalty kill, their player gets bounced from the penalty
box early.

Speaker 2 (29:13):
Also the no escape rule.

Speaker 1 (29:14):
Which penalized a team that was penalized couldn't swap out
players when the penalty was called. They had to actually
stick with you was out there until the ensuing faceof.

Speaker 2 (29:22):
I love some of the new rules.

Speaker 1 (29:24):
Was there much pushback to the idea of breaking from
hockey tradition and changing rules?

Speaker 3 (29:29):
You know, there's always change is hard for many people,
so there was always some pushback, and I would say,
you know, more from a coaches perspective, sometimes they have
stronger views because it does change the way the way
you coach, the way you maybe have to prepare players
for games. But I think generally, you know, we started
this league with this. You know, it's a single mfee structure.

(29:50):
We make our own decisions, we do things quickly and
part of the culture that we created, and you know,
give Stan Casting credit from day one he said, you
know we're going to make mistakes. We're doing this so quickly.
But let's just make sure they're mistakes we can walk
back from. And secondly, we need to think about this
differently and don't be afraid to be creative, think outside

(30:12):
the box. And so from day one that's become sort
of our culture. And so we you know, we thought
about the game. We're traditionalists too, you know, anyone who's
played the game doesn't want to change the game in
a meaningful way. But what where the opportunity was, I
think was to make it more engaging for fans, make
it more fun. And so the jail break rule. You know,
there's a lot of energy in a building with a
shorthanded goal. Now when you add the player, it just

(30:35):
it just amps it up a little bit more. Then
no escape rule was more data driven. We looked after
that season and our power play percentages were lower than
we liked, and we said, how could we actually increase
power play percentage? Every league wants more offense, so this
was a way, and it actually it worked. We saw
a three percent increase in our powerplay percentage as a
result of that rule. And then we have a couple

(30:57):
of the pick your own opponent. We felt like it
was just fun, you know, doesn't change the game's material. Yeah,
that's right. And then the other one is the gold plan,
and that was where, you know, many leagues, you sort
of lose your way to the first overall pick if
you finish last in our league. The second you're eliminated,
you have to start earning points with wins to earn

(31:18):
the first pick overall. And you know, I think that's
just another way to keep fans engaged as the season
goes on. And so we just have this culture where
there's no no bad ideas. Let's throw them out and
we'll never change the game in a meaningful way, but
we certainly want to make it more fun and more engaging.

Speaker 2 (31:34):
I love all those rules.

Speaker 1 (31:35):
The anti tanking gold Plan is one that we've suggested
other leagues should look into, just a really smart way
to keep teams trying after they've been eliminated. You know,
you mentioned the dispersal of players a moment ago, and
how it's important to your professional league to really do
that in a way that ensures parody and interest and
the highest level of play. Well, heading into season three,

(31:56):
we saw a pretty major dispersal of talent because of
the addition of the two expansion teams, in Vancouver and Seattle.
It was really wild to see the original six teams
initially be allowed to protect just three players. It was
even more wild to have Hillary Knight on the show
and joke about the fact that she might not get protected,
and then have that happen and have her go to
a brand new city and become the first captain ever

(32:17):
for that Seattle team. How did you come up with
that system and decide on just three players getting protected?

Speaker 3 (32:23):
Well, I think you know, history is always important. So
in the league launched, each team was able to sign
three players as they're sort of they'll call them founding
players to start to build their team around. And so
that's what we wanted to emulate in some way where
these expansion teams would have their sort of founding players
that they want to identify and bring to their markets.

(32:45):
So that was one part of it. We wanted to
ensure that regardless of what market you're looking at, on
day one of season three, any team could win. We
look at other leagues expansion and you see, you know,
teams that take five, ten, fifteen years to be competitive.
That wasn't our model. That's not the way we wanted
to go, And so for that to happen, you can't

(33:07):
just shuffle around bottom end players like we knew stars
were going to have to move. So that's how we
got to the three number because you know, we wanted
a certainly one, if not two, top five players on
these expansion teams. It's important for them to be able
to compete right away. It's important for that fan base
to be able to feel like they're competing right away.

(33:28):
And then there were some other elements where players could,
you know, choose to sign somewhere if they thought they
were going to get drafted anyways. And we felt like
it was as player friendly as we could make and
you know, we'll see. I'm excited to see how the
team shape up. Everyone has different opinions on you know
that they've been protected more should it be less, and

(33:51):
we learn every time we do these things. But from
a process perspective, we're pretty excited looking at the rosters
across all eight teams and feel like we've achieved the
piece that any team could win this year and that
was really critical to us. The balance in our league
is one of the best things about the PWHL.

Speaker 1 (34:07):
We have to take a quick break more with Jana
Right after this, the league has announced the biggest takeover
tour yet, and I'm particularly excited because of the sixteen
neutral site games, two of them are going to be
in my city of Chicago, so I've already got those

(34:28):
marked on my calendar.

Speaker 2 (34:29):
How are you deciding the spots for these games?

Speaker 3 (34:32):
Well, you know, for those who may not be as familiar,
last season, we launched a takeover tour with nine cities
across North America that are not our current market cities,
and as it turns out, Seattle and Vancouver were the
first two of that tour and bit of coincidence that
they ended up our expansion teams. But every time we
play these out of market games, we look at it
as a learning opportunity. We get to learn about the

(34:54):
fan base, We get to learn about the infrastructure, the
facilities that exist, the partnerships in the market, the e opportunities,
the grassroots participation rates. So there's just so much data
we can collect by playing in these games. And then
the other the flip side of that is also, you know,
we're only in eight markets now, and how do we
bring the PHL experience to fans in different markets? Because

(35:16):
it's pretty special it's unique from certainly any other you know,
hockey product. But our buildings just have this energy and
excitement in them that is something really special and so
be able to bring more people into the mix and
let them feel that it is really great. So, you know,
there's a lot of things we look at to determine
what cities it's, you know, who wants us to come,
Who thinks we can be added into that market, Who

(35:38):
thinks that, you know, the women's game would be great there,
Who wants a team? You know, So there's just lots
of elements. But we're really excited to launch the sixteen
team tour this year. So it's significantly increased from last year.
And as you said, Chicago being a great one, great
hockey town, and so we couldn't be more excited to

(35:59):
kick this off.

Speaker 1 (36:00):
Yeah, I mean, we've seen it in a couple other
women's sports, notably the AUSL had their first season and
it was a barnstorming tour, playing in different cities across
the country and being able to really test out the desire,
the infrastructure, the fan base everywhere else. And so feels
safe to say based on the fact that Vancouver and
Seattle were the first two and turned into teams that
these takeover cities are a test run potential candidates for

(36:22):
expansion teams.

Speaker 3 (36:22):
Yes, you know, I think so. There's no guarantees. We
haven't committed to know how many new expansion teams we
may or may not have next year. But as I said,
we look at everyone as a learning opportunity, and so
I think it'd probably be unlikely that we expand to
a city that we don't hit on the takeover tire.
But you know, again, we just want to look at

(36:42):
it as what can we learn, how can we understand
that market, understand the fans. But I think we've been
pretty public about our aggressive approach to expansion and that
it's very intentional, and so we're excited to continue to
grow this league.

Speaker 1 (36:56):
Yeah, you've been clear about your plans to expand, but
not specific about those plays. So you're not ready yet
to tell me how many teams next year?

Speaker 3 (37:04):
I'm not Okay, No, okay, we're not there yet.

Speaker 2 (37:07):
Good.

Speaker 1 (37:08):
What about a city that didn't quite make the cut
for the takeover tour? Maybe somewhere that could look forward
to a stop in the future. Maybe you were looking
but timing or venue or whatever didn't work out, or
there are places that you say, we know we want
to hit it.

Speaker 2 (37:19):
Be patient, we're coming to you.

Speaker 3 (37:21):
There's definitely a couple this year that maybe would have
been in that scenario in year one, and so, you know,
we obviously try not to talk too much about markets
that aren't announced, but there's certainly a couple that you know,
there always is. There's so many great cities and great
hockey cities across North America that there's a number we
could hit up. And we're really excited about the ones

(37:41):
we've got this year, and a couple that are new
to the tour, a couple that were on the tour
last year, and so we'll see where we go next season.
But this is this is a fun one.

Speaker 1 (37:50):
If you want to add Mexico, I'm happy to, you know,
bite the bullet and cover that wherever that may be.

Speaker 3 (37:55):
Well, we made a joke about a Hawaii team money. Yeah,
we'll say, I don't know if you saw that one, So
I'd be more in that to it.

Speaker 2 (38:00):
I'm in you know.

Speaker 1 (38:02):
On a previous show, we talked about something going on
with the PWHL, specifically the Ottawa charge, the construction planned
for Lansdown and TD place where they play their home games,
and you joined. Amy Sheer, the executive VP of Business
Ops and penning, a letter to Ottawa, expressing disappointment and
frustration with their plans that will include a smaller arena
in the Landsdown two point zero, about three thousand fewer seats,

(38:24):
something that works out fine for the men's team that
plays there, who I will now only be calling the
six sevens.

Speaker 2 (38:30):
It's actually the sixty seven.

Speaker 3 (38:31):
My kids say that too.

Speaker 1 (38:32):
Yeah, what's the latest on that fight? You know, we're.

Speaker 3 (38:36):
Trying to still discuss and talk, and as you said,
we were disappointed with the decision that was made. We
love Ottawa. Ottawa's an incredible market. We have passionate loyal
fans there. It's a market that has led our league
I think in year one in attendance. Year two really
strong as well. So, you know, it's disheartening to see

(38:58):
a decision like this made. There's been a lot of
ups and downs in this journey of getting the lead
to launch it. I don't think I, ever in my
wildest dreams, would have thought that this would have been
a challenge. We'd face a big enough for us that
the Yeah, wants to build a rink too small, you know.
I think Amy referenced it as a cruel twist of fate,

(39:20):
and so it's a bit shocking we're in this scenario.
I hope we can find a resolution because we love
the city, we love the charge. They've had success there,
and so we'll do everything we can to continue to
discuss and see if there's a resolution to be had.

Speaker 1 (39:35):
On its face, I'm pissed about it. It does feel
like bullshit that for years and years it's always been,
you know, accommodating men, whether that's making it bigger, and
now it's making it smaller and still accommodating men at
the expensive women. But I did read a piece on
the Ice Garden dot com by a writer named Alicia Cote.
She reconsidered a previous column that she'd written criticized in
the construction. She argued now that TD places at the

(39:58):
end of its life, and that delaying this construction will
increase the cost, and that a modern, small arena still
offers some major upgrades because of its modernity. She wrote, quote,
Landsdown two point zero isn't a vanity project or against
women's hockey. It's an urgent rescue effort to save a
beloved public space while minimizing the burden on taxpayers. It's
a reinvestment that keeps lands down viable for decades to come.

(40:18):
In this case, backing lansdown two point OHO is the
pro women's sports position because the alternative could hurt the
charge even more. What good is an eighty five hundred
seat arena if it's unsafe or unaffordable to play in?

Speaker 2 (40:28):
End quote? Do you have a response to that?

Speaker 1 (40:30):
I mean, it sounds a little bit reasonable, but is
there no possible solution that involves just bumping up the
size of their plans for the replacement arena and making
it viable for both teams?

Speaker 3 (40:43):
Well, you know, our disappointment was in the lack of
conversation communication with the PWHL. We are arguably their most
successful tenant. We have certainly had an impact on that city,
and we were always told there'd be a time to talk,
and that time never came. That's what we were upset about.

(41:03):
At the end of the day, the City of Ottawa
will do what they need to do for the City
of Ottawa, and we understand that, but the fact that
we haven't had a good faith conversation around capacity was frustrating,
and you know, there certainly are some positives to a
new building. The team spaces would be wonderful and they'd
be an upgrade from where we're at. But at the
same time, you know, we fought so hard to make

(41:25):
this a business, and you know, anybody who was asked
to take a thirty percent cut on their business, I
don't think you'd find many people that would agree and
think it was a great idea. So it's it's challenging
to make it work from a business perspective, and we
know we're going to be around for years to come,
and so we have to be a viable and a
thriving business.

Speaker 2 (41:43):
Yeah, it feels wild to me.

Speaker 1 (41:44):
I'm not in the plans with the blueprints, but that
they wouldn't be able to try to adjust the plan
for the building to accommodate more. You know, earlier in
the conversation we talked about the relationship between the players
and the league generally being a good one. There's a
very long CBA that you know will keep that that
kind of stability. But there is a question about the
reserve players for PWHL that they train with the teams

(42:06):
but they're not on the roster or getting a normal salary,
and sort of felt like these reserve spots were mostly
filled by players that were living in market, but over
time there's more of them on the CUSP, but that
are sort of willing to make the move to a
different city, hoping that they get the opportunity at a
roster spot down the road, even while they're not getting
a lot of the benefits or any of the benefits.
So does the league have any plans to change how

(42:26):
it supports reserve players with things like living expenses and
what they have to sacrifice in order to be available.

Speaker 3 (42:33):
Yeah, I mean, I think it's still early in an
eight year CBA, and this was you know, this was
an agreed upon element of the league. And I think
the reserve player when we launched was really about, to
your point, somebody that you know, maybe they do work
a job on the side, but they stay fit, but
they're not mandated to be a part of, you know,
the team all the time. And so it was a

(42:56):
solution that we had when this launched. You know, I
think things evolve, and so it's certainly things that we'll
look at and things we'll talk about. I do still
think there's a place for it where we are, but
I think we'll continue to look at it, and it's
just one of those things on the list.

Speaker 1 (43:14):
Another off season point of discussion was the timing of
the World Championships. And now there is a very unique
partnership between the IHF, which will never be easy to
say quickly, the IIHF and the PWHL which we'll keep
the event from interrupting the season, but keep it going.

Speaker 2 (43:32):
So tell us how you got to this current solution.

Speaker 1 (43:34):
I love that there seems to be a lot of
communication here to make this work for both sides.

Speaker 3 (43:39):
Yeah, this was you know, a couple of years in
the making of building the relationship since the league launched.
And I think the reality is that once the PAHL launched,
the landscape of women's hockey changed, and everybody had to
sort of understand that and agree to that. And again,
change is heard, right, the Women's World Championships have always
been in April. For us, knowing we have to be

(44:02):
a thriving business, it was a real challenge and impediment
to our growth and our ability to continue to thrive.
And so you know, over you know, months and months
of conversation the Double IHF Hockey Canada, USA Hockey. There's
a number of stakeholders that have worked really hard to
try to get something that ensures the best players play
at the World Championships. The best players also play in

(44:24):
the PAHL. We're excited about the opportunity to really, you know,
use the World Championships as the best players in the
world to help launch the PVHL season. There's a real
marketing element to this. We as a PWAHL want to
support the world's as well. We know how important it
is to players, and when you look at the men's
side of the game, what's evolved is that men only

(44:45):
play in the World Championships if they don't make the playoffs.
That's not where we wanted the women's game to go.
I think it's critical that they play on the international stage.
So our partnership with the Double ICHF is really going
to be able to help also drive more hopefully awareness,
more players, more fans to the PWHL and ensure that
we can co exist and actually you know, sort of

(45:05):
build each other up as well.

Speaker 2 (45:06):
It's really cool.

Speaker 1 (45:07):
So the World Championship, by the way, I am only
saying Double IHF from now on, it is much easier.

Speaker 3 (45:12):
That's the only way I can say it.

Speaker 1 (45:13):
I don't know if that's how everyone says it, but
if you say it like that, that's an okay for me.
So double IHF World Championship is going to be in
November now, so that will be right before the p
WHL season, getting the excitement. But it also means that
the World Championship can happen during Olympics season, so that's
a benefit to them as well that it's not an
either or They could still have that competition in November
with Olympics in February, and so all of this will

(45:36):
start in future years. But speaking of the Olympics, we're
looking ahead to February and the Milan Courtina Olympics. We've
seen previously that the Olympics brings such a giant spotlight
on women's hockey. The Canada US rivalry is one of
my favorite sports rivalries in all of sports. But this
is the first time the PWHL will have an opportunity
to really capitalize on that spotlight. So what plans does

(45:57):
the league have to make sure that fans tuning in
to watch US versus Canada are then sticking around to
watch a Boston Montreal game a few weeks later.

Speaker 3 (46:04):
Well, I think it's a real opportunity for us to
do more storytelling, right, Like it's we all know that
the success of women's sports and sports in generals are
on storytelling and getting to know the athletes, and so
leading up to the games, I think we can lean
in on that and we can continue to ensure people
know where our players are, where they're playing. The Olympics
will be its own narrative that we're all going to

(46:25):
anxiously follow, and I think, you know, as you said,
for the first time, now we have people that are
going to say, wow, I loved watching Hillary Knight. Where
can I watch her? And you know what, we can
tell you now. We can tell you she's going to
have a game and she plays for the Seattle team,
and you know, so now we can direct people back
to continue with following the following the women that they

(46:46):
fall in love with at the Olympics, and that's a
pretty special thing. So you know, we're going to hopefully
you know, have watch parties and different things going on
during the Olympic break because we know that's challenging for
our fans. But our fans are going to love watching
our players there and then when they come back. I
think it's a big opportunity to get global eyeballs on
our league as well. They've never been able to do
that before. It's always been well, maybe you'll see them

(47:06):
in four years again. So this is an exciting time
and we're all thrilled to be able to watch our
players compete there.

Speaker 1 (47:14):
We also love seeing teammates in one league or space
go against each other somewhere else, and usually when it happens,
it's the rare sort of duo. But in the case
of USA VERSUS Canada and the PWHL, there is just
an endless number of teammates who will be lining up
next to each other and then shortly thereafter in a
battle to the death, and so those storylines will just be.

Speaker 2 (47:35):
So so fun to follow.

Speaker 1 (47:37):
Okay, last question for you, anything else arenas timelines, any
other issues that the league's addressing as season three is
about to get underway.

Speaker 3 (47:45):
I don't think issues. I think there's just a lot
of excitement where we're at, and obviously we talked about expansion.
This is the first time that we've done this, so
really excited to see how this plays out and the
competitive balance in the league. And you know, I think
seeing Minnesota as the two time champions, like who's going
to dethrow them from the Welder Cup? And so I

(48:07):
think there's some great storylines. You have the Olympics in there,
and it's just such an exciting time for our league.
So I couldn't be more excited for the puck to
drop this week and get it going.

Speaker 1 (48:17):
Very cool to see the two new teams establish some identity.
I know very little about Goldeneyes except they did google
and discover that they have a very unique mating ritual.

Speaker 2 (48:26):
So we're going to continue to learn.

Speaker 1 (48:28):
About GoldenEye Ducks and also the hockey team and how
it will establish itself as unique in the space. And
then some of the other teams, the traditions that have
organically started over the first two years, just continuing to
build on those and getting them spread out to more
fans who are learning about and getting excited about the PWHL.
So congrats on all the success so far. We're looking

(48:48):
forward to season three.

Speaker 3 (48:50):
Thank you so much, appreciate the support.

Speaker 1 (48:54):
Thanks again to Jana for taking the time. We have
to take one more quick break when we come back.
It's Sports, Make It Art Welcome back slices. We love
that you're listening, but we want you to get in
the game every day too, So here's our good game
play of the day. Message us and let us know

(49:16):
which PWHL team you'll be rooting for this season. Also,
we love to keep up with the in game traditions
across the league as they get established or grow in
season three, so message us and let us know if
the Taylor Swift sing alongs continue. Maybe you got stories
about the adventures of Ottawa's mascot, a real live dog
named Lando, Or you're just like us vibing at home

(49:36):
listening to the YouTube ad break music on repeat.

Speaker 2 (49:39):
We see you too.

Speaker 1 (49:41):
We always love to hear from you, so hit us
up on email good game at wondermedianetwork dot com, or
leave us a voice smail at eight seven two two
four fifty seventy and don't forget to subscribe. Rate and
review It's easy watch Bringing a paintbrush to the Hockey
Rink rating five out of five Clean Brushstrokes review. Have
you ever stopped think about how the lines on an

(50:01):
ice rink are painted?

Speaker 2 (50:02):
Well, a few weeks ago.

Speaker 1 (50:03):
Producer Alex's Instagram algorithm did its thing perfectly, serving her
up a video of the work that went into the
minor league hockey team, the Idaho Steelheads home arena during
the off season. Workers started out with the bare concrete floor,
no water or ice yet, and used a big sprayer
to paint it all white. Then they got out paint
brushes to mark the red and blue offsides and gold lines.

(50:24):
Kind of wild to think that at the bottom of
every ice rink there's basically a huge ass mural. Now
it's your dirt rate and review. And while we're on
the topic of art and sports, friend of the show LJ.
Raider put up an interesting comparison the other day on
his art but Make It Sports account that you might
find amusing two words Bubba Trump. If you're curious, click

(50:45):
the link in the show notes. Thanks for listening, See
you tomorrow. Good game, Jaina, Good game, Seattle and Vancouver.
You not knowing what the future holds for the Ottawa Charge.
Good Game with Sarah Spain. It's an iHeart women's sports
production in partnership with Deep Blue Sports and Entertainment. You
can find us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts.

Speaker 2 (51:07):
Or wherever you get your podcasts.

Speaker 1 (51:08):
Production by Wonder Media Network. Our producers are alex Azzie,
Grace Lynch, Taylor Williamson, and Lucy Jones. Our executive producers
are Christina Everett, Jesse Katz, Jenny Kaplan and Emily Rudder.
Our editors are Emily Rudder, Britney Martinez and Gianna Palmer.
Production assistants from Avery Loftus and I'm Your Host Sarah
Spain