October 15, 2025 • 39 mins
Author and professor of economics David Berri joins Sarah to discuss pro sports leagues using financial reports to tell a story, the complex ownership structure of the WNBA, the reason revenue share is so important to W players during the ongoing collective bargaining negotiations, and why it’s not worth trying to talk to the trolls. Plus, another NWSL OG hangs ‘em up, swimming fast in short pools, and veebs is forever.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Good Game with Sarah Spain, where we're requesting,
nay demanding, that Asia Wilson's puppy Tray and Melyssa Smiths
dog Mister three attend Friday's championship parade. I mean Trey
Mister three for the aces third title parade.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
How could they miss it?
Speaker 1 (00:18):
It's Wednesday, October fifteenth, and on today's show will be
chatting with professor and author David Barry about the economics
of the WNBA and why revenue share is so important
to players during the ongoing collective bargaining negotiations. We try
to keep it simple so you can understand what they're
fighting for and maybe what they're up against. Plus another
nwslog hangs them up swimming fast in short pools and
(00:41):
vives is forever. It's all coming up right after this
Welcome back slices. Here's what you need to know today.
Let's start with college hoops. Some bad news. South Carolina
has announced that Seniorchoe Kits will miss the upcoming season
after tearing her right acl. In a statement on Instagram,
(01:05):
Kits wrote, quote, while this isn't how I hoped my
senior season would go, I'm trusting God's timing and purpose.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
I'll continue to.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
Lead, support and push my team from the sidelines. We
have big things ahead end quote. Kits had been a
starter for the last two seasons for the game Cocks,
helping the team to back to back National Title Game appearances,
including winning the championship in twenty twenty four. The six' two,
forward who was projected to be a first ROUND wnba
draft pick in the, spring could opt to either return
(01:32):
for another collegiate season or decide she'd still like to
enter the upcoming.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
Draft more college.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
Hoops the first ap poll of the season is out
And yukon is on top after winning The ncaattorney Last.
April The huskies received twenty seven first place votes from
the thirty one member national media panel to earn the
number one. Spot South carolina came in at number, two
receiving the remaining four first place, votes and THEN, Ucla
texas AND lsu rounded out the top five to THE.
(02:00):
Wnba the expansion, team The Portland, fire have expanded their,
staff ANNOUNCING wnba Veteran Ashley battle as their vice president
Of Basketball, Operations strategy And. INNOVATION a three time national
champ At Yukon battle was drafted by The Seattle, storm
but spent most of her short w career with The
New York. Liberty to THE, Nwsl Seattle rain Legend Lauren
(02:21):
Lew barnes announced.
Speaker 2 (02:23):
That she's retiring at the end of the.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
Season barnes is one of two remaining nwslogs to have
played all thirteen years of league history with the same,
club the other being her reign Teammate Jess. Fishlock barnes
announced the news after becoming the first player to compete
in two hundred and fifty regular SEASON nwsl, games a
feat she accomplished this past. Weekend as part of the,
(02:44):
announcement The rain said the team will celebrate barnes career
and legacy During friday's match against The Utah. Royals seattle's
currently fifth in THE nwsl, table but they haven't yet
locked up a playoff. Spot safe to say the team
has a little extra motivation. Now soccer two RETIRED us
soccer Legends Alex morgan And Mia hamm announced they're joining
up to launch The Goal, cup a celebrity charity match
(03:08):
that will benefit their respective. Foundations the Inaugural Goal cup
competition will be played In Los angeles at USC's Rollinson
stadium Next, january With ham And morgan captaining rival Squads
la Versus San. Diego we'll link to the event website
in the show, notes where tickets are.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
Now available to the general.
Speaker 1 (03:24):
Public to college, Vibes, Yeah misha's, gone but vibes will never.
Die the Undefeated Nebraska cornhouskers remain in the top spot
in this Week's American Volleyball Coaches association rankings after sweeping
Both washington and then number twelve Per due this past.
Weekend number Two texas earned four first place. Votes they've
been in the number two spots since the second week
(03:44):
of THE avca.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
Rankings the pair of.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
Teams are the only unbeaten programs in the top twenty.
Five to, swimming Where American Gretchen walsh's streak of short
course world records. Continues over the weekend at A World
Aquatic Swimming World cup In, indiana walshbroker our own short
course world record in the fifty meter, butterfly clocking a
time of twenty three point seventy two.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
Seconds, now if.
Speaker 1 (04:06):
You're wondering what's a short course, record it's a time
set in a twenty five meter, pool which is half
as long as the standard fifty Meter olympic size, pool
and because a short course race includes more turns twice as.
Many in, fact the records there are faster than in
long course pools because competitors gain speed from pushing off the,
wall And walsh has set a lot of those, records
(04:27):
including this past weekend's. Victory she's now broken short course
world records thirteen times in the last. Year to gymnastics
ahead of the Upcoming World, championships which will be held In,
indonesia The indonesian government said last week they would not
grant visas To israeli athletes due to the war In,
gaza while The Israeli Gymnastics federation said it was assured
(04:47):
In july that its delegation would be allowed to compete At.
Worlds indonesia actually has a long history of refusing to
Host israeli sport, athletes dating back to the nineteen sixty
Two Asian. Games indonesia is the most most Populous muslim
majority country in the. World more than eighty seven percent
Of indonesians Are, muslim and the nation has no diplomatic
relationship With. Israel The Israeli Gymnastics federation appealed to The
(05:10):
court Of arbitration Of, sport asking for an intervention Requiring
indonesia to grant the visas or to force The International
Gymnastics federation to cancel or move The World championship.
Speaker 2 (05:20):
Competition but On, tuesday.
Speaker 1 (05:21):
The court Of arbitration For sport rejected the, appeal stating
that the organization has no control Over indonesia's visa. Policies
we got to take a quick. Break when we come.
Back It's David berry joining us now for a second.
(05:42):
Time he's a professor At Southern Utah university who's spent
the last two decades researching sports and. Economics he's written
or co written five, books Including The wages Of, Wins Sports,
economics And slaying The Trolls why The trolls Are very
very wrong About women In. Sports you've read his work all,
over Including The New York, Times The, Atlantic, Time forbes and.
More he can tell you off the top of his,
(06:04):
head how many people watch the nineteen eighty THREE Nba
finals live on.
Speaker 2 (06:08):
Television it's. None It's David.
Speaker 1 (06:11):
Berry, Hi, david thanks for coming back.
Speaker 3 (06:13):
On hi, There how are you Doing i'm.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
GOOD i love to quote you talking about tape DELAYED
nba finals and the number of people which was very
few in the crowd for some of the, finest most
nostalgic moments of that, league to remind people that there
was growth there.
Speaker 2 (06:30):
Too and you've.
Speaker 1 (06:31):
Really been banging the drum for years about the economic
realities and opportunities for women's, sports and you're just the
voice THAT i wanted to have on right now to
discuss THE wnbacba.
Speaker 2 (06:41):
Negotiations we've laid out a bit of.
Speaker 1 (06:44):
This in previous, Episodes we've talked about a number of
the different THINGS i want to talk about, today BUT
i still think it'll be useful to sort of set
the stage by explaining how sports team valuations, work laying
out the WNBA's ownership, breakdown and then getting into some
of the leaked proposals and what.
Speaker 2 (06:59):
You actually are arguing might be.
Speaker 1 (07:00):
Fair so let's start with the, basics and, remember talk
to me Like i'm, five because MATHEMATICALLY i, am and
many of our listeners also might feel that way when
it comes to economics and. Numbers but can you explain
how sports teams can report losses while still boasting giant.
Valuations how is the business of sport different than maybe
(07:21):
how we think about, revenue, profits, losses et.
Speaker 2 (07:24):
Cetera maybe in some other. Spaces all, right.
Speaker 4 (07:27):
That's i'm gonna get my whiteboard out and this will
be done just with some basic. CALCULUS i, Think, no
that's not how we Do, okay this is SOMETHING i
think people don't. Understand And i'm an econ, professor so
not an accounting, professor BUT i do no accounting, Professors
and this is what you learn if you talk to accounting.
Speaker 3 (07:45):
Professors there is a sense that.
Speaker 4 (07:47):
People have that when a firm reports revenues and costs
and their financial, statements that that is the statement and
anyone else looking at the financial data would come to
exactly the same. Conclusion and if that were, true we
wouldn't need. Accountants it would just be a computer. Program
but we actually have. Accountants and so what accountants do
(08:07):
is they tell the story that the firm would like to.
Tell so my favorite example of this is back in
the early nineteen, seventies THE nba is very concerned The
American Basketball association. Exists they're bidding up the salaries of the,
players and THE nba is LIKE i want THE aba
to go.
Speaker 3 (08:27):
AWAY i want to merge with THE. Aba that's WHAT
i want to have.
Speaker 4 (08:30):
Happened And oscar robertson the, player said, no if you do,
that then Player souris will come. Down we need THE
aba to bid up our. Salaries what you're proposing is totally.
Illegal it's a violation of anti. Trust some of THE
Us senate gets, involved and The United States senate back
in those days this was.
Speaker 3 (08:47):
TRUE i don't know how true this is.
Speaker 4 (08:49):
Anymore but in those days they could issue subpoenas and
you actually had to do what they. Said so they
issued a subpoena of THE nba and, said give us
your financial, data because you've contended that you are current
certainly not making a. Profit so they turned over their actual,
numbers and those numbers ended up in the hands of two.
ECONOMISTS i believe their names Are Roger nolan Ben, achner
(09:10):
and they were At stanford And Nolan knckner look at
this data and they, say, well you're. Right if you
look at it this, way then your financial data says.
Speaker 3 (09:21):
That you're losing.
Speaker 4 (09:21):
Money but, HOWEVER i could look at it this way
and you're breaking EVEN i could look at this, way
you're making a small. PROFIT i look at it this,
way you're making a larger. Profit and every WAY i
just told you is totally legal and totally. Acceptable you
chose the way that would make the argument that you
wanted to. Make but that's not the only way to
look at. This and if you are right now talking
(09:42):
to somebody investing in THE, nba you probably wouldn't tell
them that story that you're losing. Money you would tell
them this other story that it's very. Profitable and that's
why people were investing in THE nba in the early nineteen.
Seventies so there's you can do this different. Ways so
when THE nba comes out and, says, hey we're not making,
(10:04):
money which is the story they told in the early,
seventies and then the same story in eighty, three in
the same story in every other labor negotiation they, did
they would always say we're not making.
Speaker 3 (10:12):
Money you're.
Speaker 4 (10:13):
Right you could look at the books a certain way
and come to that. Conclusion BUT i could also look
at the books a different way and come to a
totally different. Conclusion and, unfortunately often reporters don't know. This
they tend to think that whatever they said must be,
true because there's no way THE nba would just lie about.
It they wouldn't do that well and worth.
Speaker 1 (10:35):
Noting when it happens in THE, nba there may be
a little bit of concern about the league stepping back
in terms of profitability or something affecting it in a
negative way that needs to be, Addressed but for the most,
part the conversation is still that this is a very
profitable business that everybody wants in, on even if there
are teams reporting, losses whereas in THE wnba the story
has always been that because of the, losses it's not
(10:57):
a viable business and the product is. Bad, so for,
instance you mentioned THE nba across multiple decades reporting. LOSSES
espn found CONFIDENTIAL nba financial records a couple of years,
ago twenty, sixteen showing that fourteen of the NBA's thirty
teams lost money before collecting revenue sharing. Payouts nine finished
in the red even after accounting for those. Payments and,
(11:18):
again this is the story those numbers. Told you could
probably work those same numbers to tell a different, story
but folks were not clamoring for those team to shut.
Down they weren't asking why The, cavs for, instance would
Pay Lebron james thirty point nine million dollars that year
if they were in the. Red And Adam silver wasn't
publicly announcing THOSE nba, Losses why do you think he's
(11:39):
been willing to publicly discuss the WNBA's financial losses and
allow for that narrative to Continue.
Speaker 4 (11:46):
When it comes to THE. Nba and we wrote this
in our, Book slang the. Trolls when it comes to,
sports men really love, men and so when the stories
about men's, sports the idea of a lot of men's
minds is men sports is. Legitimate it's something that should.
Exist we love. Them we love a love of, love
of love. It we don't care for losing money in men's.
(12:07):
Sports The Houston rockets are willing to Pay John wall
forty four million dollars sit on a bench for an entire,
season and THE nba is not going to release a
statement going On John, wall we lost forty four million
dollars last. Year he didn't produce anything for, Us he
just sat. There they don't say that when it comes
to women's. Sports women's sports are treated like they're At
taco bell and so they look at every quarterly financial
statement to see if they're making, money BECAUSE i think
(12:30):
in the minds of, men and this IS i think
the crucial issue is they fundamentally don't believe that women's
sports are the same as men's. Sports men's sports they
know are going to exist forever because, men they, know
live and die by their sports, teams and they just
don't believe that women's sports are the same. Thing that
women's sports can attract the same audience and the same
(12:52):
fan base and the same kind of. Attitudes they think
they've exist on the men's, side but not on the women's,
side and as a, result they react to any kind
of negative financial statement as this is proof that What
i'm saying is. Right men's sports is real and women's
sports is not real and so and THAT i think
(13:12):
is one of the fundamental problems here is that men don't. Believe,
ultimately there are a lot of men who don't believe
in women's sports in the same way they believe in men's.
Sports AND i would also add, THIS i think when
you think about sports as a business versus other mentioning taco,
bell if you go to a restaurant after this podcast
and you have a meal and it may be your
(13:32):
favorite restaurant in the, world and it doesn't work out for,
you you may never go back. Again but if The
cubs blew the playoffs, again that is not the fandom
of The cubs in the. Slightest there is not a
Single cubs fan, who when they, lost said, Well i'm
done with.
Speaker 3 (13:49):
That i'm not watching.
Speaker 1 (13:50):
That.
Speaker 2 (13:50):
Yeah this is the ANALOGY i bring up all the.
Speaker 1 (13:52):
TIME i call it the shit sandwich, analogy which is,
somehow every single, year The bears can serve me a
shit sandwich AND i will keep coming. Back it doesn't
really matter what they serve.
Speaker 2 (14:02):
ME i will be.
Speaker 1 (14:02):
Back which is why sports is a great business to
be in as. Owners and to your, point there is
this belief system that men's potential is worth every, investment
whereas women are always graded. Immediately there's no working toward
an EVENTUAL. Roi there is no long, important meaningful investment
(14:23):
put in with the idea that down the road it's
going to pay. Off from the, beginning women's leagues have
said we put in, this we lost this, immediately while
men's leagues have understood and other business whether That's netflix
or somewhere, else have understood the long tail that we'll
have to follow if they believe something's going to work.
Speaker 2 (14:38):
On SO i agree with your.
Speaker 1 (14:40):
Point that fundamentally men have a lack of imagination when
it comes to women's sports and a lack of. Belief
but also business, Wise Adam silver has seemed to be
a quote unquote good guy on the side of women
since he took, Over but he's not the one who
had this, vision. Right he took over For David, stern
who ultimately had a vision around the women's game and
(15:02):
help to make it come to. Fruition so is your
belief that as both personal and as a, businessman he
fundamentally doesn't believe that it's profitable or worth investing in
and that's why he's willing to publicly denounce, it or
do you think he's playing the game of IF i
publicly criticize, it especially right BEFORE, cbas we can continue
(15:24):
to talk about how we're not making, money pay the
players less than they, want AND i can either use
it as a tax shield for THE nba continuing to
report losses against WHERE i really want to, Invest, like
is there more to it?
Speaker 2 (15:37):
There as a, Businessman, yeah it's hard to.
Speaker 3 (15:40):
Know, right.
Speaker 4 (15:41):
Don't we don't know because they both motivations lead us
to the same. Outcome it is a case That Adam
silver is in THE nba in a very different position
Than David stern. Was David stern came in THE nba
in the nineteen. Seventies he knew THE nba wasn't doing very.
Well he knew that They he was in THE nba
when they attracted less than ten thousand fans a.
Speaker 3 (16:01):
Game he was in THE nba when they were struggling
to get on.
Speaker 4 (16:03):
Television he knew all, that and then he watched it
build up over, time and then he handed it over To.
Adam Adam silver is effectively his rich son that he
just gave the business. To and Then Adam silver inherits
it and. Goes then he looks at THE. Wnba he,
SAYS i don't understand why you're not. Successful we're. Successful,
yeah you inherited a business that already exists for fifty.
(16:24):
Years that's why it's. Successful THE wnba it started in ninety.
Seven we're not at the end of the third. Decade
if you knew YOUR nba, history Which David stern would
have known because he was there at the end of
the third, decade he would, say, well it's exactly where's
supposed to. Be, actually it's further along than it was
supposed to. Be David stern were, alive he'd be.
Speaker 3 (16:41):
Like this is going.
Speaker 4 (16:41):
Amazingly, well this is way better THAN i anticipated it would.
Be right, now THE wnba is earning more revenue than
THE nba with the same point in. Time they have higher,
attendance they have better television, Ratings they are better in
every metric you can think of relative to THE nba
at the same point in.
Speaker 3 (16:58):
Time we should be.
Speaker 4 (16:59):
Looking at this lead right, now going this is an
amazing success. Story you can't possibly be telling me this
is losing.
Speaker 3 (17:05):
Money that is.
Speaker 4 (17:06):
Ridiculous you. Can't how are you getting all the investors
to show up with hundreds of millions of?
Speaker 3 (17:10):
Dollars why are they doing?
Speaker 2 (17:11):
That, yeah that's WHAT i keep.
Speaker 1 (17:13):
Saying you can't say out of one side of your.
Mouth rocketship. Growth people are fighting over expansion. Sides billionaires
want in and oh but also we're very poor and
we don't have any, money and we can't pay the,
players and yet that's what they're trying to. Do, okay
so let's get into the ownership side of, things because
that complicates things. Too i'm quoting you in Your wages
Of wins Sub. Stack you write in THE, nba the
thirty owners of the teams collectively own one hundred percent
(17:34):
of the. League THE wnba ownership is more. Complicated when
the league was, founded THE nba retained fifty percent ownership
of the. League, therefore the owners of THE wnba only
owned fifty percent of the league that was entirely comprised
of their. Teams, yes this is an unusual way to
structure a.
Speaker 2 (17:48):
League and then it got even.
Speaker 1 (17:49):
Weirder in twenty twenty, two THE, wnba led By kat
The engelbert And Adam, silver decided to sell off sixteen
percent of THE wnba for just seventy five million. Dollars,
now fair toes they needed a. Capital this is me now.
Talking you're done.
Speaker 2 (18:02):
Talking end.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
Quote fair to say that they needed that injection of.
Capital but can you explain now why that sale sixteen
percent for seventy five million looks like such a big.
Speaker 4 (18:12):
Miss if they truly needed seventy five million, Dollars THE
nba had seventy five million. Dollars they had just Given
John wall forty four million, dollars so they had seventy
five if that was. Needed you you really truly believe
this this business needs seventy five million, DOLLARS i have
seventy five million.
Speaker 3 (18:29):
Dollars if your position.
Speaker 4 (18:30):
IS i have to sell off sixteen percent of an
entity that's going to be worth billions someday for seventy
five million dollars BECAUSE i desperately need cash right. Now
when it turns OUT i had the cash sitting in my,
desk that means you're an. Idiot well what are you?
Doing why would you sell off that? Asset it's that
doesn't make any. Sense you only make sense if you
if you take the position is you don't actually believe
this is gonna be worth, Billions you really believe that
(18:53):
this league is probably peaking at this point page which.
Speaker 1 (18:57):
Is why it's such a huge, miss because the people
in charge don't even believe in. It so the deal
at that, moment essentially using those percentages in that, investment
valued the entire w at less than five hundred million.
Speaker 2 (19:10):
Dollars but just three years.
Speaker 1 (19:12):
After that deal was, made The New York liberty by
itself was valued at almost that five hundred million dollar.
Number so you gave away a league worth, billions sixteen
percent of it for just seventy five million. Dollars so
massive miss, there which then leads us to the question
of financial transparency and why we don't have more of.
(19:33):
It so when they make decisions like this or THE
tv deal that a lot of people rightfully said at
the time isn't even good. Enough sounds like a, lot
but still not good. Enough and that's because we do
not have financial. Transparency we know what percentage of the
different parties, own.
Speaker 2 (19:46):
But we don't really know what they.
Speaker 1 (19:47):
Own because financial estimates have the league making anywhere from
three hundred million dollars in revenue this year to AN
espn report that has it making a billion dollars three
hundred million a, billion those are very.
Speaker 2 (19:59):
Different why is the financial picture so? Muddy, yeah, well
they don't report.
Speaker 4 (20:04):
Anything i'm forced to piece this together based on what
public SOURCES i. Have i've actually had people who are
supposed to know contact me and, go, well what do
you think it. Is i'm, Like i'm not the one
who's supposed to know.
Speaker 2 (20:16):
This the players don't. Know the.
Speaker 1 (20:18):
Players The Players association are trying to do A cba
and they don't even know they aren't even being given
the Final i'm.
Speaker 3 (20:25):
Going to tell.
Speaker 4 (20:25):
YOU i know people IN, WNBA i know people work
with W they don't know. Why nobody seems to. Know
nobody knows what it, is and they won't tell. You
and part of it is that there's a lot of
things in the revenue that is where it's it's you,
know if the The Indiana, pacers any n fever owned
(20:46):
by the same, entity so if they sign a sponsorship
deal for, both then the question, is, well who gets
how much the revenue goes to each?
Speaker 3 (20:53):
PARTY i don't how DO i know?
Speaker 4 (20:54):
That because you negotiated on both, Sides and the same
thing is with the media, deal you negotiated both the same.
Speaker 3 (20:59):
Time so what exactly was that?
Speaker 4 (21:01):
Worth you didn't sell them, separately so you just, DECLARED
i say it's two. Billion does it look from the
ratings that it would be two? Billion so where'd you
get the number? From you, know they act like we
did them a. Favor that wasn't a, favor that was
you made that up?
Speaker 2 (21:15):
Right, well and we've seen in other.
Speaker 1 (21:17):
Instances if you look at the independent report that came
out about THE NC doublea and their violations in terms
of investment on the men's and women's side From March
madness that there was a sale of every SINGLE NC
douba championship bundled into one thing in order FOR tnt
to get the rights to the men's and then there
was no way of ascribing any value to the women's
tournament that they actually ended up saying was worth up
(21:38):
to eighty million dollars a, year was selling out, tickets
was selling out, sponsorships and then being called a money.
Loser so you can decide what story you want to
tell back to your financials at the, top and you
can also decide what you want to, reveal like you,
said when you make a.
Speaker 2 (21:53):
Deal on both sides of THE nba AND.
Speaker 1 (21:54):
Wnba if you want to tell the story that THE
nba is the reason you made all that, money that's
pretty easy to, do, right and that it feels like
what happens so often. Here the language here is never
that THE nba AND wnba are owners of a. Thing
it is always that THE nba subsidizes THE.
Speaker 2 (22:11):
Wnba. Right we only use that language.
Speaker 1 (22:13):
Here we never talk about investments anywhere else as being
a subsidization of a product that's not worth. It it's
always an investment or something that is worth. Something so
again it comes back to the story that we've always
told about the w changing the way people write about
and see everything from the financials to what they're.
Speaker 2 (22:32):
Worth so let's talk about what they're.
Speaker 1 (22:34):
Worth because the AVERAGE wnba, salary an estimated percentage OF
wnba revenue paid to the players right, now would be
pretty shocking to folks who might not know. It So
i'm going to quote your sub stack again on this
for those who don't.
Speaker 4 (22:49):
Know.
Speaker 1 (22:49):
Quote while the average wage grew from a bit less
than one hundred ten thousand dollars in twenty twenty one
to about one hundred twenty thousand dollars in twenty twenty,
five by my, estimation the percentage of revenues paid TO
wnba players fell from eleven percent four years ago to
less than seven percent this. Season this inequity gets more
marked at the star. Level the top players in THE
wnba make close to two hundred and fifty thousand dollars a.
(23:12):
Year THE nba pays its top players around two hundred
times as. Much so that's why we're HERE wnbacba. Negotiations
what does the league plan to do to address this?
Discrepancy well friend of the, Show Anti coostable Of Front
Office sports reported a few days ago the latest salary
offer from THE nba SLASH wnba to THE wna players is,
(23:34):
quote according to those, sources a supermacs salary closer to
eight hundred and fifty thousand dollars and a veteran minimum
hovering around three hundred thousand.
Speaker 2 (23:43):
Dollars in the first year of the proposal end.
Speaker 1 (23:45):
Quote can you give me your theory about how the
league got to those very specific?
Speaker 4 (23:50):
Numbers right, now after the capital, rays THE nba owns
forty two, percent there's the lucky seventy five million dollar
winners who got sixteen. Percent that's going to be worth
billions for them later. On they're very happy about. That
and then there's forty two percent left for THE wnba,
Owners So Mark davis and the size and they own
forty two percent of this. League so if you, say,
(24:10):
okay next year they're gonna GET tv, deal they're gonna
get two hundred million. Dollars they already have three hundred
million this. Year that means revenues at least five hundred,
Million so ignoring the billion dollar, report let's say it's
five hundred. Million if THE wnba owners are totally responsible
for paying the, players Which i've heard people say that
they think that's how this should.
Speaker 1 (24:30):
Work JUST, wnba not just FORTY nba and not the
sixteen percent equity raise.
Speaker 4 (24:37):
People, yeah just the. Owners so they get forty percent
of the. Revenue that would give them two hundred and
ten million. Dollars that's forty two percent of five hundred,
million two under, ten and there's about two hundred and
ten players next year after, expansion and if they get,
half they get fifty. Percent that's what THE nba. Gets
i'm gonna be a fifty. Percent they would get one
hundred and five. Million that would put average salary at
(24:59):
five hundred thousand if you could follow them out. There
but that's it comes out to be five hundred, thousand
which is right kind of in between what you said
the max and the minimum. Was that's kind of roughly
where you're, at and that suggests to me that that's
really what you're doing. Here you're actually saying the W
nba owners are paying all the, salaries and THE nba
and those capital raised. People they collect, revenue but they
don't pay the, cost and that's Not and So Adam
(25:22):
silver had this this very patronizing. Statement he, said, Well
Kathy engelbert and the feast that they're they're they're treating
this as it's, personal it's just. Business, Well i'm, Sorry,
adam there's no business that exists where you get the
revenue but you don't pay the. Cost what business is
at that's that you can't get a business that we
try and try and go buy a business that that,
Says i'm going to give you. Money you give you
(25:44):
all your. Revenue i'm not responsible for your. Cost he's,
Like i'm, sorry you're an. Owner you're responsible for the cost.
Too that's part of the. Deal owners get paid in.
Profit they don't they don't get paid in. Revenue they
get paid in. Profit profit is what exists after you
paid your. Cost but it appears that THE nba is
taking this. Position, WELL wnba, owners this is your. League
you pay, players and they're.
Speaker 3 (26:04):
Like, well what are you. Paying you know you're going
to collect the.
Speaker 4 (26:08):
Money you're collect the money without paying that's.
Speaker 1 (26:09):
Ridiculous, yeah, essentially THE nba owners would get forty percent
of the league's revenue without paying any of the. Costs
and in that, CASE wnba players would never be paid
more than twenty one percent of league revenue because they're
always going to only get the percentage of THE wnba
owns cut into half and then. Divided so is that
complicated by the fact that there are more and MORE
(26:30):
nba owners in the. Game Lindsay gibbs wrote a great
piece about. This we talked about it previously on the
show that ultimately when you count the people double dipping
with the equity raise and ORIGINAL nba ownership and joining
as owners of expansion teams or existing teams THAT nba
related folks have more like sixty percent of the, league
does that complicate things more including as we continue to
(26:52):
see the cost of doing business go up in more
of those folks being the ones who want to get.
Speaker 3 (26:56):
Involved, yeah it.
Speaker 4 (26:57):
Does complicate things because you then HAVE nba owners who
ARE wnba. Owners so you have these different, camps, right
so you have THE wnb. Owners this is a very
weird labor, negotiation very different than we need the labor
negotiation looked, at because on one side of the, negotiation
you obviously have the players they want to get, paid
(27:17):
but THE wnba owners are on the side of the
players because they want THE nba to pay the. Players
and then you have THE nba owners who are, like,
no we're not paying the, players not our, league although
it is our, league but we're prettying it's not our.
League we just want to collect the revenue from this
league and we want you to sup.
Speaker 2 (27:34):
And we're getting more and more involved every.
Speaker 4 (27:36):
Day, yes, Yes and then you have these people in
the middle who are like in both camps arguing with, themselves,
going you're, right you should pay, That and then it
becomes very very confusing what's going.
Speaker 3 (27:47):
On and you, know And.
Speaker 4 (27:49):
I've talked to people in THE wnba and they're, like
do you know what the revenues?
Speaker 3 (27:54):
Are do you know what's going?
Speaker 1 (27:55):
On? No and they're, like it's very complicated because there's
not trans experiency around the, financials and because it's a
very complicated ownership, structure and because you have what appears
to be this kind of break between especially the less
wealthy w owners who have been around since the, beginning
who now want to profit off of this rocket ship,
(28:15):
growth who are almost at odds with the extremely WEALTHY
nba owners who are trying to profit off the most
recent years without having ever invested, early or who are
now trying, to to your, point take the revenue without
paying the. Costs so you co wrote a piece For
The New York times With Sarah chodosh called what it
would look like to PAY wnba players what they, deserve
(28:36):
and you argued that if THE wnba shared revenue like
THE nba, does the top salaries in the w would
be closer to four million. Dollars so tell us how
you got to that number instead of the eight hundred
and fifty thousand which we're hearing leaked as the current.
Speaker 4 (28:49):
Proposal, yeah that's actually a pretty easy. Calculation so it's
it's we had three hundred million dollars in revenues last,
year is what we. Agen that's what allegedly Players, therefore
again one hundred and fifty. Million there's thirteen. Teams if you, say,
well thirteen teams paying out one hundred and fifty, million
(29:09):
that's like eleven million dollars per. Team THE nba does
does the maximum, deal where it's thirty five percent of
whatever the salary cap, is is the maximum thirty five
percent of eleven is like four so you get four,
million so you gotta pay four million.
Speaker 3 (29:21):
Dollars, yeah, yeah that's what it comes out to.
Speaker 4 (29:23):
Be so it's not very it's it's just falling with
the NBA's own logic how they pay their own, players
and an average, salary you, know would be a, million
not eight hundred and fifty. Thousand but that's again that's
if you if you use all the revenue to pay your,
workers which every other business, does.
Speaker 3 (29:41):
That's how it.
Speaker 1 (29:42):
Worked well right, now you do have to consider the
fact that the two highest paid coaches in the league
are making a million and a half or so dollars
while the players aren't making close to, that which also
feels so different from other sports leagues Where Lebron james
is never going to be making two thirds or half
of what his coach is. Making so it's very clear
(30:05):
they understand what it costs to be in this, business
how much money is going into, facilities how much money
is going into, coaching how much money they're gonna get
out OF tv, rights and yet somehow it still never
gets to the.
Speaker 4 (30:17):
Players, Yeahs and that's very bizarre because no other sports
team other than in college where obviously they don't let
them pay the. Players wouldever pay their coach more than the.
Players obviously you know this as A bears. Fan it
doesn't make it to first of the. Coaches it only
matters who the players. Are no coach is going To transwich.
Speaker 1 (30:37):
PLAYERS i disagree Because Ben johnson has us at three
wins in a, row fight back from, adversity.
Speaker 2 (30:43):
Make a good play.
Speaker 3 (30:44):
Code.
Speaker 1 (30:45):
NO i think the coaches matter a, ton and we
saw in the w this year the adjustments made By
Becky hammon made all the. Difference i'm not disparaging coaches
getting paid what they. Should the point is they clearly
understand what they need to pay to get that coach
on the, sideline and yet they will not do the
same to get that player on the court because right
(31:06):
now they have leverage because there is there aren't that
many other places for them to.
Speaker 4 (31:10):
Play, Right, well if THE wnba paid the coaches and
players what they're supposed to, Pay Asia wilson gets four
million And Becky hammond gets one, million because we all
know Without Asia wilson you're not winning any.
Speaker 3 (31:20):
TITLE i don't care what adjustments you're, making so.
Speaker 4 (31:24):
Out of, there What's Becky hamm't gonna, say, well if
age was, here she would just. Score so when if
you do, that, yes, yes exactly, right you, know and
so that doesn't Exactly the, coaches when if they're honest with,
you they will always tell you that there's a limit
to WHAT i can. DO i CAN'T i can't transform
somebody who's not any good into being good by just,
saying you, know why don't you just do what this
(31:46):
amazing person.
Speaker 2 (31:47):
Does you harder jump, Hires.
Speaker 3 (31:49):
Yes, yes you.
Speaker 4 (31:50):
Know i'm sure every coach Throughout Lebron james's career on
the other, side, said you, KNOW i thought about. It
if we all Stop, lebron we'd win this.
Speaker 3 (31:57):
Game so why do you do?
Speaker 1 (31:58):
That my last question for you as an, economist as a,
writer you have had to over decades tell a story using,
numbers or tell a story about the numbers to convince
people of whatever it is you're trying to teach, them
whatever it is you're trying to. Sell so how would
you dilute everything that you studied for That New York times,
(32:21):
piece everything we talked about it to the kind of
messaging that we'll get through to people who hear four
million dollars Per Asia wilson and, say but the league
has been losing money every. Year this league lost fifty million.
Dollar how could you pay players a percentage of? Zero
that repeated thing over and over that stems from this completely, misogynous,
(32:41):
patriarchal completely tainted well of information that's been in existence
since THE wnba. Began how do you counteract? That what's
your messaging for why they deserve what they're asking.
Speaker 4 (32:50):
For, yeah it's it's really hard Because i've been trying
to do it for years and it's really. Hard so
there's a lot of different Ways i've attacked. It one, Is,
okay you heard THE wnba doesn't make a. Profit THE
nba has been told us they never made a. Profit
so that's the same source telling you that you don't
believe THE nba is telling truth about THE.
Speaker 3 (33:08):
Nba why do you believe about THE.
Speaker 4 (33:09):
Wnba, secondly people have, said, well there's these phenomenally huge operating. Costs, Okay,
well in twenty, nineteen we know revenue was around one hundred,
million and THE wnba said they lost ten, Million so
that's one hundred and ten. Million now their revenue is
three hundred. Million it's going to be five hundred. Million
what do you think is happening to the operating? Costs
what do you think they're paving the courts in gold
or they're heating the offices with dollar.
Speaker 3 (33:30):
Bills that's.
Speaker 4 (33:31):
Ridiculous it can't be the operating costs are going up
that incredibly. Fast that doesn't make any. Sense so there
is that. Story and, third it's just basic. Economics workers
are paid out of. Revenue it is not whoever job you,
have they're not paying you out of the. Profits the
profits are the wages to the. Owner it's what they
get after they pay the. Workers wages come out of.
(33:52):
Revenue and if it is the case that you firmly
believe THAT i don't have to pay, you IF i
just tell you That i'm not making any, money then
whoever is paid paying you a paycheck right now should
come to you right now and tell YOU i can't pay.
Speaker 3 (34:04):
You i'm, SORRY i didn't make any.
Speaker 4 (34:05):
Money they should just tell you that every day of your,
life and you should show up to work for free
and at the end of the, week go DO i
get a paycheck this? Week i'm? Sorry looked, again still
not making. Money i'm. Sorry IF i ever make, money at,
This i'll be sure to pay. You i'm so, sorry
because that is if you believe that you're the most
goible person on.
Speaker 3 (34:25):
The, planet that is totally.
Speaker 4 (34:26):
Ridiculous they have every insidive to tell this story and
you should not be that. Goible and the reason why
you're this goible is, because again going back to our original,
point you firmly believe women's sports are different than mensports
and that you don't pay this whatever be retable.
Speaker 1 (34:39):
Right, Well and the last ONE i think that we've
got to add to the storytelling and messaging from the
last couple of years is why would billionaire owners OF
nba teams be fighting to get into a terrible business
that isn't making money and won't.
Speaker 2 (34:53):
Be making money in the.
Speaker 1 (34:54):
Future if you really believe the products so, bad why
is everybody battling to get in on? It And i'm
to take all that, messaging And i'm not taking it
into the comments because the comments are full of bots
and assholes and they're not worth my. Time BUT i
will take it into meaningful conversations with people who are
actually invested.
Speaker 2 (35:10):
In understanding what's going. On ye IF i can just
find Some, david thank you so much as.
Speaker 1 (35:16):
ALWAYS i mean, LITERALLY i have been looking to you
for over a decade for the, informed data, filled researched
information that you, present because we all know that that's the,
truth and it's just just hard to get through to some.
People and apparently some of those people are the very
people running THE, wnba which is a.
Speaker 2 (35:34):
Shame.
Speaker 4 (35:35):
Ye you can only slay the, trolls you can't talk to.
THEM i, never that's not the title of the. Books
not talk to the. Trolls you're even. Slay you don't
know that you've been slay BUT i can't help.
Speaker 2 (35:44):
You, yeah now you, did move. On thank, You, david appreciate.
Speaker 1 (35:50):
It thanks again To david for taking the. TIME i
learned a. LOT i hope you did. Too we got
to take another break when we come, back a new
kind of golf.
Speaker 2 (36:01):
Hazard welcome back.
Speaker 1 (36:07):
Slices we love that you're, listening but we want you
to get in the game every day.
Speaker 2 (36:10):
Too so here's our good game play of the.
Speaker 1 (36:12):
Day Follow david on social media and pick up a
copy of one of his. Books we'll link to his
website and his social media in the show, notes and
maybe take a moment to remember a few greats that
we've lost in the last few. Weeks listen To DiAngelo's
Hot Does It? Feel Or Brown, Sugar Watch Diane keaton
And Something's got To Give Annie hall or one of
my faves as a, Kid Baby, boom and read up
(36:34):
on the amazing life Of Jane, goodall one of my personal.
Heroes go watch her interview For Netflix's Famous Last, words in.
Speaker 2 (36:41):
Which she, said in part, QUOTE i want.
Speaker 1 (36:43):
You to understand that we are part of the natural,
world and even, today when the planet is, dark there's
still is. Hope you have it in your power to
make a. Difference don't give. Up there is a future for.
You do your best while you're still on this beautiful
Planet earth THAT i look down upon from WHERE i.
Speaker 2 (36:59):
Am now end.
Speaker 1 (37:00):
Quote in the WORLD i WISH i lived, in we
would have flown the flag half mass For. Jane we
always love to hear from. You hit us up on,
email good game at wondermedianetwork dot, com or leave us
a voicemail at eight seven two two four fifty, seventy
and don't forget to, subscribe rate and review. Slices it's.
Easy watch More Albatross's Fewer catfishes rating ten out of
(37:25):
Ten New ways To hate The internet. REVIEW a recent
article In The New York times By Carson kessler And
Gabby herzig details a new catfishing scheme involving the LPGA's top.
Players now it's not limited to female, golfers but the
space has become a particularly ripe one for this particular.
Scam the gist of it accounts identify fans of the
(37:46):
tour's top, athletes reach out to them directly impersonating a,
player quickly move the conversation to another, platform and then
begin requesting payment for things LIKE vip, experiences a private,
dinner special access at a tour, event and.
Speaker 2 (37:59):
More some even USE ai altered.
Speaker 1 (38:01):
Videos to speak directly to the, fan using his or
her name to prove that they're. Real fans have lost
thousands of, dollars and sometimes they continue to blame the
athlete for their losses even after being told that they were.
Scammed golfers Like Charlie, Hall Lexi, thompson And Nelly korda
have all had to post warnings to their, followers And
corda pinned a note to the top of Her instagram
(38:22):
saying she can't communicate freely with fans anymore because she
doesn't know their.
Speaker 2 (38:25):
Intentions so. Slices if you've got a dinner.
Speaker 1 (38:28):
On the books With Lydia, coe or if you're investing
in a great new company founded By michelle We, west
no you're. Not you can check out the story via
the link in our show. Notes and to cleanse your
palette of, catfish you can check out a sick Mingy
lee albatross from back in twenty sixteen in the show
notes as. Well And albatross is a rare score of
three strokes under par on a single. Hole now it's your, turn,
(38:51):
y'all rate and. Review come, on go down to those.
Stars select, five tell us you love, Us thanks for,
Listening see you.
Speaker 2 (38:58):
Tomorrow good, Game, David Good.
Speaker 1 (39:00):
Game Lou barnes h calculus and trigonometry and algebra and
basically numbers of any.
Speaker 2 (39:06):
Kind you are not my. Friends i'm friends with.
Speaker 1 (39:08):
Words Good game With Sarah spain is An iHeart women's
sports production in partnership With Deep Blue sports And. Entertainment
you can find us on The iHeartRadio, App Apple, podcasts
or wherever.
Speaker 2 (39:21):
You get your.
Speaker 1 (39:22):
Podcasts production By Wonder Media, network our producers Are Alex
Azzie Grace, Lynch Taylor williamson And Lucy. Jones our executive
producers Are Christina, Everett Jesse, Katz Jenny kaplan And Emily.
Rudder our editors Are Emily, Rudder Britney martinez And Gianna.
Palmer production assistants From AVERY loftus And I'm Your Host
Sarah spain
Welcome to Good Game with Sarah Spain, where we're requesting,
nay demanding, that Asia Wilson's puppy Tray and Melyssa Smiths
dog Mister three attend Friday's championship parade. I mean Trey
Mister three for the aces third title parade.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
How could they miss it?
Speaker 1 (00:18):
It's Wednesday, October fifteenth, and on today's show will be
chatting with professor and author David Barry about the economics
of the WNBA and why revenue share is so important
to players during the ongoing collective bargaining negotiations. We try
to keep it simple so you can understand what they're
fighting for and maybe what they're up against. Plus another
nwslog hangs them up swimming fast in short pools and
(00:41):
vives is forever. It's all coming up right after this
Welcome back slices. Here's what you need to know today.
Let's start with college hoops. Some bad news. South Carolina
has announced that Seniorchoe Kits will miss the upcoming season
after tearing her right acl. In a statement on Instagram,
(01:05):
Kits wrote, quote, while this isn't how I hoped my
senior season would go, I'm trusting God's timing and purpose.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
I'll continue to.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
Lead, support and push my team from the sidelines. We
have big things ahead end quote. Kits had been a
starter for the last two seasons for the game Cocks,
helping the team to back to back National Title Game appearances,
including winning the championship in twenty twenty four. The six' two,
forward who was projected to be a first ROUND wnba
draft pick in the, spring could opt to either return
(01:32):
for another collegiate season or decide she'd still like to
enter the upcoming.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
Draft more college.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
Hoops the first ap poll of the season is out
And yukon is on top after winning The ncaattorney Last.
April The huskies received twenty seven first place votes from
the thirty one member national media panel to earn the
number one. Spot South carolina came in at number, two
receiving the remaining four first place, votes and THEN, Ucla
texas AND lsu rounded out the top five to THE.
(02:00):
Wnba the expansion, team The Portland, fire have expanded their,
staff ANNOUNCING wnba Veteran Ashley battle as their vice president
Of Basketball, Operations strategy And. INNOVATION a three time national
champ At Yukon battle was drafted by The Seattle, storm
but spent most of her short w career with The
New York. Liberty to THE, Nwsl Seattle rain Legend Lauren
(02:21):
Lew barnes announced.
Speaker 2 (02:23):
That she's retiring at the end of the.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
Season barnes is one of two remaining nwslogs to have
played all thirteen years of league history with the same,
club the other being her reign Teammate Jess. Fishlock barnes
announced the news after becoming the first player to compete
in two hundred and fifty regular SEASON nwsl, games a
feat she accomplished this past. Weekend as part of the,
(02:44):
announcement The rain said the team will celebrate barnes career
and legacy During friday's match against The Utah. Royals seattle's
currently fifth in THE nwsl, table but they haven't yet
locked up a playoff. Spot safe to say the team
has a little extra motivation. Now soccer two RETIRED us
soccer Legends Alex morgan And Mia hamm announced they're joining
up to launch The Goal, cup a celebrity charity match
(03:08):
that will benefit their respective. Foundations the Inaugural Goal cup
competition will be played In Los angeles at USC's Rollinson
stadium Next, january With ham And morgan captaining rival Squads
la Versus San. Diego we'll link to the event website
in the show, notes where tickets are.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
Now available to the general.
Speaker 1 (03:24):
Public to college, Vibes, Yeah misha's, gone but vibes will never.
Die the Undefeated Nebraska cornhouskers remain in the top spot
in this Week's American Volleyball Coaches association rankings after sweeping
Both washington and then number twelve Per due this past.
Weekend number Two texas earned four first place. Votes they've
been in the number two spots since the second week
(03:44):
of THE avca.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
Rankings the pair of.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
Teams are the only unbeaten programs in the top twenty.
Five to, swimming Where American Gretchen walsh's streak of short
course world records. Continues over the weekend at A World
Aquatic Swimming World cup In, indiana walshbroker our own short
course world record in the fifty meter, butterfly clocking a
time of twenty three point seventy two.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
Seconds, now if.
Speaker 1 (04:06):
You're wondering what's a short course, record it's a time
set in a twenty five meter, pool which is half
as long as the standard fifty Meter olympic size, pool
and because a short course race includes more turns twice as.
Many in, fact the records there are faster than in
long course pools because competitors gain speed from pushing off the,
wall And walsh has set a lot of those, records
(04:27):
including this past weekend's. Victory she's now broken short course
world records thirteen times in the last. Year to gymnastics
ahead of the Upcoming World, championships which will be held In,
indonesia The indonesian government said last week they would not
grant visas To israeli athletes due to the war In,
gaza while The Israeli Gymnastics federation said it was assured
(04:47):
In july that its delegation would be allowed to compete At.
Worlds indonesia actually has a long history of refusing to
Host israeli sport, athletes dating back to the nineteen sixty
Two Asian. Games indonesia is the most most Populous muslim
majority country in the. World more than eighty seven percent
Of indonesians Are, muslim and the nation has no diplomatic
relationship With. Israel The Israeli Gymnastics federation appealed to The
(05:10):
court Of arbitration Of, sport asking for an intervention Requiring
indonesia to grant the visas or to force The International
Gymnastics federation to cancel or move The World championship.
Speaker 2 (05:20):
Competition but On, tuesday.
Speaker 1 (05:21):
The court Of arbitration For sport rejected the, appeal stating
that the organization has no control Over indonesia's visa. Policies
we got to take a quick. Break when we come.
Back It's David berry joining us now for a second.
(05:42):
Time he's a professor At Southern Utah university who's spent
the last two decades researching sports and. Economics he's written
or co written five, books Including The wages Of, Wins Sports,
economics And slaying The Trolls why The trolls Are very
very wrong About women In. Sports you've read his work all,
over Including The New York, Times The, Atlantic, Time forbes and.
More he can tell you off the top of his,
(06:04):
head how many people watch the nineteen eighty THREE Nba
finals live on.
Speaker 2 (06:08):
Television it's. None It's David.
Speaker 1 (06:11):
Berry, Hi, david thanks for coming back.
Speaker 3 (06:13):
On hi, There how are you Doing i'm.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
GOOD i love to quote you talking about tape DELAYED
nba finals and the number of people which was very
few in the crowd for some of the, finest most
nostalgic moments of that, league to remind people that there
was growth there.
Speaker 2 (06:30):
Too and you've.
Speaker 1 (06:31):
Really been banging the drum for years about the economic
realities and opportunities for women's, sports and you're just the
voice THAT i wanted to have on right now to
discuss THE wnbacba.
Speaker 2 (06:41):
Negotiations we've laid out a bit of.
Speaker 1 (06:44):
This in previous, Episodes we've talked about a number of
the different THINGS i want to talk about, today BUT
i still think it'll be useful to sort of set
the stage by explaining how sports team valuations, work laying
out the WNBA's ownership, breakdown and then getting into some
of the leaked proposals and what.
Speaker 2 (06:59):
You actually are arguing might be.
Speaker 1 (07:00):
Fair so let's start with the, basics and, remember talk
to me Like i'm, five because MATHEMATICALLY i, am and
many of our listeners also might feel that way when
it comes to economics and. Numbers but can you explain
how sports teams can report losses while still boasting giant.
Valuations how is the business of sport different than maybe
(07:21):
how we think about, revenue, profits, losses et.
Speaker 2 (07:24):
Cetera maybe in some other. Spaces all, right.
Speaker 4 (07:27):
That's i'm gonna get my whiteboard out and this will
be done just with some basic. CALCULUS i, Think, no
that's not how we Do, okay this is SOMETHING i
think people don't. Understand And i'm an econ, professor so
not an accounting, professor BUT i do no accounting, Professors
and this is what you learn if you talk to accounting.
Speaker 3 (07:45):
Professors there is a sense that.
Speaker 4 (07:47):
People have that when a firm reports revenues and costs
and their financial, statements that that is the statement and
anyone else looking at the financial data would come to
exactly the same. Conclusion and if that were, true we
wouldn't need. Accountants it would just be a computer. Program
but we actually have. Accountants and so what accountants do
(08:07):
is they tell the story that the firm would like to.
Tell so my favorite example of this is back in
the early nineteen, seventies THE nba is very concerned The
American Basketball association. Exists they're bidding up the salaries of the,
players and THE nba is LIKE i want THE aba
to go.
Speaker 3 (08:27):
AWAY i want to merge with THE. Aba that's WHAT
i want to have.
Speaker 4 (08:30):
Happened And oscar robertson the, player said, no if you do,
that then Player souris will come. Down we need THE
aba to bid up our. Salaries what you're proposing is totally.
Illegal it's a violation of anti. Trust some of THE
Us senate gets, involved and The United States senate back
in those days this was.
Speaker 3 (08:47):
TRUE i don't know how true this is.
Speaker 4 (08:49):
Anymore but in those days they could issue subpoenas and
you actually had to do what they. Said so they
issued a subpoena of THE nba and, said give us
your financial, data because you've contended that you are current
certainly not making a. Profit so they turned over their actual,
numbers and those numbers ended up in the hands of two.
ECONOMISTS i believe their names Are Roger nolan Ben, achner
(09:10):
and they were At stanford And Nolan knckner look at
this data and they, say, well you're. Right if you
look at it this, way then your financial data says.
Speaker 3 (09:21):
That you're losing.
Speaker 4 (09:21):
Money but, HOWEVER i could look at it this way
and you're breaking EVEN i could look at this, way
you're making a small. PROFIT i look at it this,
way you're making a larger. Profit and every WAY i
just told you is totally legal and totally. Acceptable you
chose the way that would make the argument that you
wanted to. Make but that's not the only way to
look at. This and if you are right now talking
(09:42):
to somebody investing in THE, nba you probably wouldn't tell
them that story that you're losing. Money you would tell
them this other story that it's very. Profitable and that's
why people were investing in THE nba in the early nineteen.
Seventies so there's you can do this different. Ways so
when THE nba comes out and, says, hey we're not making,
(10:04):
money which is the story they told in the early,
seventies and then the same story in eighty, three in
the same story in every other labor negotiation they, did
they would always say we're not making.
Speaker 3 (10:12):
Money you're.
Speaker 4 (10:13):
Right you could look at the books a certain way
and come to that. Conclusion BUT i could also look
at the books a different way and come to a
totally different. Conclusion and, unfortunately often reporters don't know. This
they tend to think that whatever they said must be,
true because there's no way THE nba would just lie about.
It they wouldn't do that well and worth.
Speaker 1 (10:35):
Noting when it happens in THE, nba there may be
a little bit of concern about the league stepping back
in terms of profitability or something affecting it in a
negative way that needs to be, Addressed but for the most,
part the conversation is still that this is a very
profitable business that everybody wants in, on even if there
are teams reporting, losses whereas in THE wnba the story
has always been that because of the, losses it's not
(10:57):
a viable business and the product is. Bad, so for,
instance you mentioned THE nba across multiple decades reporting. LOSSES
espn found CONFIDENTIAL nba financial records a couple of years,
ago twenty, sixteen showing that fourteen of the NBA's thirty
teams lost money before collecting revenue sharing. Payouts nine finished
in the red even after accounting for those. Payments and,
(11:18):
again this is the story those numbers. Told you could
probably work those same numbers to tell a different, story
but folks were not clamoring for those team to shut.
Down they weren't asking why The, cavs for, instance would
Pay Lebron james thirty point nine million dollars that year
if they were in the. Red And Adam silver wasn't
publicly announcing THOSE nba, Losses why do you think he's
(11:39):
been willing to publicly discuss the WNBA's financial losses and
allow for that narrative to Continue.
Speaker 4 (11:46):
When it comes to THE. Nba and we wrote this
in our, Book slang the. Trolls when it comes to,
sports men really love, men and so when the stories
about men's, sports the idea of a lot of men's
minds is men sports is. Legitimate it's something that should.
Exist we love. Them we love a love of, love
of love. It we don't care for losing money in men's.
(12:07):
Sports The Houston rockets are willing to Pay John wall
forty four million dollars sit on a bench for an entire,
season and THE nba is not going to release a
statement going On John, wall we lost forty four million
dollars last. Year he didn't produce anything for, Us he
just sat. There they don't say that when it comes
to women's. Sports women's sports are treated like they're At
taco bell and so they look at every quarterly financial
statement to see if they're making, money BECAUSE i think
(12:30):
in the minds of, men and this IS i think
the crucial issue is they fundamentally don't believe that women's
sports are the same as men's. Sports men's sports they
know are going to exist forever because, men they, know
live and die by their sports, teams and they just
don't believe that women's sports are the same. Thing that
women's sports can attract the same audience and the same
(12:52):
fan base and the same kind of. Attitudes they think
they've exist on the men's, side but not on the women's,
side and as a, result they react to any kind
of negative financial statement as this is proof that What
i'm saying is. Right men's sports is real and women's
sports is not real and so and THAT i think
(13:12):
is one of the fundamental problems here is that men don't. Believe,
ultimately there are a lot of men who don't believe
in women's sports in the same way they believe in men's.
Sports AND i would also add, THIS i think when
you think about sports as a business versus other mentioning taco,
bell if you go to a restaurant after this podcast
and you have a meal and it may be your
(13:32):
favorite restaurant in the, world and it doesn't work out for,
you you may never go back. Again but if The
cubs blew the playoffs, again that is not the fandom
of The cubs in the. Slightest there is not a
Single cubs fan, who when they, lost said, Well i'm
done with.
Speaker 3 (13:49):
That i'm not watching.
Speaker 1 (13:50):
That.
Speaker 2 (13:50):
Yeah this is the ANALOGY i bring up all the.
Speaker 1 (13:52):
TIME i call it the shit sandwich, analogy which is,
somehow every single, year The bears can serve me a
shit sandwich AND i will keep coming. Back it doesn't
really matter what they serve.
Speaker 2 (14:02):
ME i will be.
Speaker 1 (14:02):
Back which is why sports is a great business to
be in as. Owners and to your, point there is
this belief system that men's potential is worth every, investment
whereas women are always graded. Immediately there's no working toward
an EVENTUAL. Roi there is no long, important meaningful investment
(14:23):
put in with the idea that down the road it's
going to pay. Off from the, beginning women's leagues have
said we put in, this we lost this, immediately while
men's leagues have understood and other business whether That's netflix
or somewhere, else have understood the long tail that we'll
have to follow if they believe something's going to work.
Speaker 2 (14:38):
On SO i agree with your.
Speaker 1 (14:40):
Point that fundamentally men have a lack of imagination when
it comes to women's sports and a lack of. Belief
but also business, Wise Adam silver has seemed to be
a quote unquote good guy on the side of women
since he took, Over but he's not the one who
had this, vision. Right he took over For David, stern
who ultimately had a vision around the women's game and
(15:02):
help to make it come to. Fruition so is your
belief that as both personal and as a, businessman he
fundamentally doesn't believe that it's profitable or worth investing in
and that's why he's willing to publicly denounce, it or
do you think he's playing the game of IF i
publicly criticize, it especially right BEFORE, cbas we can continue
(15:24):
to talk about how we're not making, money pay the
players less than they, want AND i can either use
it as a tax shield for THE nba continuing to
report losses against WHERE i really want to, Invest, like
is there more to it?
Speaker 2 (15:37):
There as a, Businessman, yeah it's hard to.
Speaker 3 (15:40):
Know, right.
Speaker 4 (15:41):
Don't we don't know because they both motivations lead us
to the same. Outcome it is a case That Adam
silver is in THE nba in a very different position
Than David stern. Was David stern came in THE nba
in the nineteen. Seventies he knew THE nba wasn't doing very.
Well he knew that They he was in THE nba
when they attracted less than ten thousand fans a.
Speaker 3 (16:01):
Game he was in THE nba when they were struggling
to get on.
Speaker 4 (16:03):
Television he knew all, that and then he watched it
build up over, time and then he handed it over To.
Adam Adam silver is effectively his rich son that he
just gave the business. To and Then Adam silver inherits
it and. Goes then he looks at THE. Wnba he,
SAYS i don't understand why you're not. Successful we're. Successful,
yeah you inherited a business that already exists for fifty.
(16:24):
Years that's why it's. Successful THE wnba it started in ninety.
Seven we're not at the end of the third. Decade
if you knew YOUR nba, history Which David stern would
have known because he was there at the end of
the third, decade he would, say, well it's exactly where's
supposed to. Be, actually it's further along than it was
supposed to. Be David stern were, alive he'd be.
Speaker 3 (16:41):
Like this is going.
Speaker 4 (16:41):
Amazingly, well this is way better THAN i anticipated it would.
Be right, now THE wnba is earning more revenue than
THE nba with the same point in. Time they have higher,
attendance they have better television, Ratings they are better in
every metric you can think of relative to THE nba
at the same point in.
Speaker 3 (16:58):
Time we should be.
Speaker 4 (16:59):
Looking at this lead right, now going this is an
amazing success. Story you can't possibly be telling me this
is losing.
Speaker 3 (17:05):
Money that is.
Speaker 4 (17:06):
Ridiculous you. Can't how are you getting all the investors
to show up with hundreds of millions of?
Speaker 3 (17:10):
Dollars why are they doing?
Speaker 2 (17:11):
That, yeah that's WHAT i keep.
Speaker 1 (17:13):
Saying you can't say out of one side of your.
Mouth rocketship. Growth people are fighting over expansion. Sides billionaires
want in and oh but also we're very poor and
we don't have any, money and we can't pay the,
players and yet that's what they're trying to. Do, okay
so let's get into the ownership side of, things because
that complicates things. Too i'm quoting you in Your wages
Of wins Sub. Stack you write in THE, nba the
thirty owners of the teams collectively own one hundred percent
(17:34):
of the. League THE wnba ownership is more. Complicated when
the league was, founded THE nba retained fifty percent ownership
of the. League, therefore the owners of THE wnba only
owned fifty percent of the league that was entirely comprised
of their. Teams, yes this is an unusual way to
structure a.
Speaker 2 (17:48):
League and then it got even.
Speaker 1 (17:49):
Weirder in twenty twenty, two THE, wnba led By kat
The engelbert And Adam, silver decided to sell off sixteen
percent of THE wnba for just seventy five million. Dollars,
now fair toes they needed a. Capital this is me now.
Talking you're done.
Speaker 2 (18:02):
Talking end.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
Quote fair to say that they needed that injection of.
Capital but can you explain now why that sale sixteen
percent for seventy five million looks like such a big.
Speaker 4 (18:12):
Miss if they truly needed seventy five million, Dollars THE
nba had seventy five million. Dollars they had just Given
John wall forty four million, dollars so they had seventy
five if that was. Needed you you really truly believe
this this business needs seventy five million, DOLLARS i have
seventy five million.
Speaker 3 (18:29):
Dollars if your position.
Speaker 4 (18:30):
IS i have to sell off sixteen percent of an
entity that's going to be worth billions someday for seventy
five million dollars BECAUSE i desperately need cash right. Now
when it turns OUT i had the cash sitting in my,
desk that means you're an. Idiot well what are you?
Doing why would you sell off that? Asset it's that
doesn't make any. Sense you only make sense if you
if you take the position is you don't actually believe
this is gonna be worth, Billions you really believe that
(18:53):
this league is probably peaking at this point page which.
Speaker 1 (18:57):
Is why it's such a huge, miss because the people
in charge don't even believe in. It so the deal
at that, moment essentially using those percentages in that, investment
valued the entire w at less than five hundred million.
Speaker 2 (19:10):
Dollars but just three years.
Speaker 1 (19:12):
After that deal was, made The New York liberty by
itself was valued at almost that five hundred million dollar.
Number so you gave away a league worth, billions sixteen
percent of it for just seventy five million. Dollars so
massive miss, there which then leads us to the question
of financial transparency and why we don't have more of.
(19:33):
It so when they make decisions like this or THE
tv deal that a lot of people rightfully said at
the time isn't even good. Enough sounds like a, lot
but still not good. Enough and that's because we do
not have financial. Transparency we know what percentage of the
different parties, own.
Speaker 2 (19:46):
But we don't really know what they.
Speaker 1 (19:47):
Own because financial estimates have the league making anywhere from
three hundred million dollars in revenue this year to AN
espn report that has it making a billion dollars three
hundred million a, billion those are very.
Speaker 2 (19:59):
Different why is the financial picture so? Muddy, yeah, well
they don't report.
Speaker 4 (20:04):
Anything i'm forced to piece this together based on what
public SOURCES i. Have i've actually had people who are
supposed to know contact me and, go, well what do
you think it. Is i'm, Like i'm not the one
who's supposed to know.
Speaker 2 (20:16):
This the players don't. Know the.
Speaker 1 (20:18):
Players The Players association are trying to do A cba
and they don't even know they aren't even being given
the Final i'm.
Speaker 3 (20:25):
Going to tell.
Speaker 4 (20:25):
YOU i know people IN, WNBA i know people work
with W they don't know. Why nobody seems to. Know
nobody knows what it, is and they won't tell. You
and part of it is that there's a lot of
things in the revenue that is where it's it's you,
know if the The Indiana, pacers any n fever owned
(20:46):
by the same, entity so if they sign a sponsorship
deal for, both then the question, is, well who gets
how much the revenue goes to each?
Speaker 3 (20:53):
PARTY i don't how DO i know?
Speaker 4 (20:54):
That because you negotiated on both, Sides and the same
thing is with the media, deal you negotiated both the same.
Speaker 3 (20:59):
Time so what exactly was that?
Speaker 4 (21:01):
Worth you didn't sell them, separately so you just, DECLARED
i say it's two. Billion does it look from the
ratings that it would be two? Billion so where'd you
get the number? From you, know they act like we
did them a. Favor that wasn't a, favor that was
you made that up?
Speaker 2 (21:15):
Right, well and we've seen in other.
Speaker 1 (21:17):
Instances if you look at the independent report that came
out about THE NC doublea and their violations in terms
of investment on the men's and women's side From March
madness that there was a sale of every SINGLE NC
douba championship bundled into one thing in order FOR tnt
to get the rights to the men's and then there
was no way of ascribing any value to the women's
tournament that they actually ended up saying was worth up
(21:38):
to eighty million dollars a, year was selling out, tickets
was selling out, sponsorships and then being called a money.
Loser so you can decide what story you want to
tell back to your financials at the, top and you
can also decide what you want to, reveal like you,
said when you make a.
Speaker 2 (21:53):
Deal on both sides of THE nba AND.
Speaker 1 (21:54):
Wnba if you want to tell the story that THE
nba is the reason you made all that, money that's
pretty easy to, do, right and that it feels like
what happens so often. Here the language here is never
that THE nba AND wnba are owners of a. Thing
it is always that THE nba subsidizes THE.
Speaker 2 (22:11):
Wnba. Right we only use that language.
Speaker 1 (22:13):
Here we never talk about investments anywhere else as being
a subsidization of a product that's not worth. It it's
always an investment or something that is worth. Something so
again it comes back to the story that we've always
told about the w changing the way people write about
and see everything from the financials to what they're.
Speaker 2 (22:32):
Worth so let's talk about what they're.
Speaker 1 (22:34):
Worth because the AVERAGE wnba, salary an estimated percentage OF
wnba revenue paid to the players right, now would be
pretty shocking to folks who might not know. It So
i'm going to quote your sub stack again on this
for those who don't.
Speaker 4 (22:49):
Know.
Speaker 1 (22:49):
Quote while the average wage grew from a bit less
than one hundred ten thousand dollars in twenty twenty one
to about one hundred twenty thousand dollars in twenty twenty,
five by my, estimation the percentage of revenues paid TO
wnba players fell from eleven percent four years ago to
less than seven percent this. Season this inequity gets more
marked at the star. Level the top players in THE
wnba make close to two hundred and fifty thousand dollars a.
(23:12):
Year THE nba pays its top players around two hundred
times as. Much so that's why we're HERE wnbacba. Negotiations
what does the league plan to do to address this?
Discrepancy well friend of the, Show Anti coostable Of Front
Office sports reported a few days ago the latest salary
offer from THE nba SLASH wnba to THE wna players is,
(23:34):
quote according to those, sources a supermacs salary closer to
eight hundred and fifty thousand dollars and a veteran minimum
hovering around three hundred thousand.
Speaker 2 (23:43):
Dollars in the first year of the proposal end.
Speaker 1 (23:45):
Quote can you give me your theory about how the
league got to those very specific?
Speaker 4 (23:50):
Numbers right, now after the capital, rays THE nba owns
forty two, percent there's the lucky seventy five million dollar
winners who got sixteen. Percent that's going to be worth
billions for them later. On they're very happy about. That
and then there's forty two percent left for THE wnba,
Owners So Mark davis and the size and they own
forty two percent of this. League so if you, say,
(24:10):
okay next year they're gonna GET tv, deal they're gonna
get two hundred million. Dollars they already have three hundred
million this. Year that means revenues at least five hundred,
Million so ignoring the billion dollar, report let's say it's
five hundred. Million if THE wnba owners are totally responsible
for paying the, players Which i've heard people say that
they think that's how this should.
Speaker 1 (24:30):
Work JUST, wnba not just FORTY nba and not the
sixteen percent equity raise.
Speaker 4 (24:37):
People, yeah just the. Owners so they get forty percent
of the. Revenue that would give them two hundred and
ten million. Dollars that's forty two percent of five hundred,
million two under, ten and there's about two hundred and
ten players next year after, expansion and if they get,
half they get fifty. Percent that's what THE nba. Gets
i'm gonna be a fifty. Percent they would get one
hundred and five. Million that would put average salary at
(24:59):
five hundred thousand if you could follow them out. There
but that's it comes out to be five hundred, thousand
which is right kind of in between what you said
the max and the minimum. Was that's kind of roughly
where you're, at and that suggests to me that that's
really what you're doing. Here you're actually saying the W
nba owners are paying all the, salaries and THE nba
and those capital raised. People they collect, revenue but they
don't pay the, cost and that's Not and So Adam
(25:22):
silver had this this very patronizing. Statement he, said, Well
Kathy engelbert and the feast that they're they're they're treating
this as it's, personal it's just. Business, Well i'm, Sorry,
adam there's no business that exists where you get the
revenue but you don't pay the. Cost what business is
at that's that you can't get a business that we
try and try and go buy a business that that,
Says i'm going to give you. Money you give you
(25:44):
all your. Revenue i'm not responsible for your. Cost he's,
Like i'm, sorry you're an. Owner you're responsible for the cost.
Too that's part of the. Deal owners get paid in.
Profit they don't they don't get paid in. Revenue they
get paid in. Profit profit is what exists after you
paid your. Cost but it appears that THE nba is
taking this. Position, WELL wnba, owners this is your. League
you pay, players and they're.
Speaker 3 (26:04):
Like, well what are you. Paying you know you're going
to collect the.
Speaker 4 (26:08):
Money you're collect the money without paying that's.
Speaker 1 (26:09):
Ridiculous, yeah, essentially THE nba owners would get forty percent
of the league's revenue without paying any of the. Costs
and in that, CASE wnba players would never be paid
more than twenty one percent of league revenue because they're
always going to only get the percentage of THE wnba
owns cut into half and then. Divided so is that
complicated by the fact that there are more and MORE
(26:30):
nba owners in the. Game Lindsay gibbs wrote a great
piece about. This we talked about it previously on the
show that ultimately when you count the people double dipping
with the equity raise and ORIGINAL nba ownership and joining
as owners of expansion teams or existing teams THAT nba
related folks have more like sixty percent of the, league
does that complicate things more including as we continue to
(26:52):
see the cost of doing business go up in more
of those folks being the ones who want to get.
Speaker 3 (26:56):
Involved, yeah it.
Speaker 4 (26:57):
Does complicate things because you then HAVE nba owners who
ARE wnba. Owners so you have these different, camps, right
so you have THE wnb. Owners this is a very
weird labor, negotiation very different than we need the labor
negotiation looked, at because on one side of the, negotiation
you obviously have the players they want to get, paid
(27:17):
but THE wnba owners are on the side of the
players because they want THE nba to pay the. Players
and then you have THE nba owners who are, like,
no we're not paying the, players not our, league although
it is our, league but we're prettying it's not our.
League we just want to collect the revenue from this
league and we want you to sup.
Speaker 2 (27:34):
And we're getting more and more involved every.
Speaker 4 (27:36):
Day, yes, Yes and then you have these people in
the middle who are like in both camps arguing with, themselves,
going you're, right you should pay, That and then it
becomes very very confusing what's going.
Speaker 3 (27:47):
On and you, know And.
Speaker 4 (27:49):
I've talked to people in THE wnba and they're, like
do you know what the revenues?
Speaker 3 (27:54):
Are do you know what's going?
Speaker 1 (27:55):
On? No and they're, like it's very complicated because there's
not trans experiency around the, financials and because it's a
very complicated ownership, structure and because you have what appears
to be this kind of break between especially the less
wealthy w owners who have been around since the, beginning
who now want to profit off of this rocket ship,
(28:15):
growth who are almost at odds with the extremely WEALTHY
nba owners who are trying to profit off the most
recent years without having ever invested, early or who are
now trying, to to your, point take the revenue without
paying the. Costs so you co wrote a piece For
The New York times With Sarah chodosh called what it
would look like to PAY wnba players what they, deserve
(28:36):
and you argued that if THE wnba shared revenue like
THE nba, does the top salaries in the w would
be closer to four million. Dollars so tell us how
you got to that number instead of the eight hundred
and fifty thousand which we're hearing leaked as the current.
Speaker 4 (28:49):
Proposal, yeah that's actually a pretty easy. Calculation so it's
it's we had three hundred million dollars in revenues last,
year is what we. Agen that's what allegedly Players, therefore
again one hundred and fifty. Million there's thirteen. Teams if you, say,
well thirteen teams paying out one hundred and fifty, million
(29:09):
that's like eleven million dollars per. Team THE nba does
does the maximum, deal where it's thirty five percent of
whatever the salary cap, is is the maximum thirty five
percent of eleven is like four so you get four,
million so you gotta pay four million.
Speaker 3 (29:21):
Dollars, yeah, yeah that's what it comes out to.
Speaker 4 (29:23):
Be so it's not very it's it's just falling with
the NBA's own logic how they pay their own, players
and an average, salary you, know would be a, million
not eight hundred and fifty. Thousand but that's again that's
if you if you use all the revenue to pay your,
workers which every other business, does.
Speaker 3 (29:41):
That's how it.
Speaker 1 (29:42):
Worked well right, now you do have to consider the
fact that the two highest paid coaches in the league
are making a million and a half or so dollars
while the players aren't making close to, that which also
feels so different from other sports leagues Where Lebron james
is never going to be making two thirds or half
of what his coach is. Making so it's very clear
(30:05):
they understand what it costs to be in this, business
how much money is going into, facilities how much money
is going into, coaching how much money they're gonna get
out OF tv, rights and yet somehow it still never
gets to the.
Speaker 4 (30:17):
Players, Yeahs and that's very bizarre because no other sports
team other than in college where obviously they don't let
them pay the. Players wouldever pay their coach more than the.
Players obviously you know this as A bears. Fan it
doesn't make it to first of the. Coaches it only
matters who the players. Are no coach is going To transwich.
Speaker 1 (30:37):
PLAYERS i disagree Because Ben johnson has us at three
wins in a, row fight back from, adversity.
Speaker 2 (30:43):
Make a good play.
Speaker 3 (30:44):
Code.
Speaker 1 (30:45):
NO i think the coaches matter a, ton and we
saw in the w this year the adjustments made By
Becky hammon made all the. Difference i'm not disparaging coaches
getting paid what they. Should the point is they clearly
understand what they need to pay to get that coach
on the, sideline and yet they will not do the
same to get that player on the court because right
(31:06):
now they have leverage because there is there aren't that
many other places for them to.
Speaker 4 (31:10):
Play, Right, well if THE wnba paid the coaches and
players what they're supposed to, Pay Asia wilson gets four
million And Becky hammond gets one, million because we all
know Without Asia wilson you're not winning any.
Speaker 3 (31:20):
TITLE i don't care what adjustments you're, making so.
Speaker 4 (31:24):
Out of, there What's Becky hamm't gonna, say, well if
age was, here she would just. Score so when if
you do, that, yes, yes exactly, right you, know and
so that doesn't Exactly the, coaches when if they're honest with,
you they will always tell you that there's a limit
to WHAT i can. DO i CAN'T i can't transform
somebody who's not any good into being good by just,
saying you, know why don't you just do what this
(31:46):
amazing person.
Speaker 2 (31:47):
Does you harder jump, Hires.
Speaker 3 (31:49):
Yes, yes you.
Speaker 4 (31:50):
Know i'm sure every coach Throughout Lebron james's career on
the other, side, said you, KNOW i thought about. It
if we all Stop, lebron we'd win this.
Speaker 3 (31:57):
Game so why do you do?
Speaker 1 (31:58):
That my last question for you as an, economist as a,
writer you have had to over decades tell a story using,
numbers or tell a story about the numbers to convince
people of whatever it is you're trying to teach, them
whatever it is you're trying to. Sell so how would
you dilute everything that you studied for That New York times,
(32:21):
piece everything we talked about it to the kind of
messaging that we'll get through to people who hear four
million dollars Per Asia wilson and, say but the league
has been losing money every. Year this league lost fifty million.
Dollar how could you pay players a percentage of? Zero
that repeated thing over and over that stems from this completely, misogynous,
(32:41):
patriarchal completely tainted well of information that's been in existence
since THE wnba. Began how do you counteract? That what's
your messaging for why they deserve what they're asking.
Speaker 4 (32:50):
For, yeah it's it's really hard Because i've been trying
to do it for years and it's really. Hard so
there's a lot of different Ways i've attacked. It one, Is,
okay you heard THE wnba doesn't make a. Profit THE
nba has been told us they never made a. Profit
so that's the same source telling you that you don't
believe THE nba is telling truth about THE.
Speaker 3 (33:08):
Nba why do you believe about THE.
Speaker 4 (33:09):
Wnba, secondly people have, said, well there's these phenomenally huge operating. Costs, Okay,
well in twenty, nineteen we know revenue was around one hundred,
million and THE wnba said they lost ten, Million so
that's one hundred and ten. Million now their revenue is
three hundred. Million it's going to be five hundred. Million
what do you think is happening to the operating? Costs
what do you think they're paving the courts in gold
or they're heating the offices with dollar.
Speaker 3 (33:30):
Bills that's.
Speaker 4 (33:31):
Ridiculous it can't be the operating costs are going up
that incredibly. Fast that doesn't make any. Sense so there
is that. Story and, third it's just basic. Economics workers
are paid out of. Revenue it is not whoever job you,
have they're not paying you out of the. Profits the
profits are the wages to the. Owner it's what they
get after they pay the. Workers wages come out of.
(33:52):
Revenue and if it is the case that you firmly
believe THAT i don't have to pay, you IF i
just tell you That i'm not making any, money then
whoever is paid paying you a paycheck right now should
come to you right now and tell YOU i can't pay.
Speaker 3 (34:04):
You i'm, SORRY i didn't make any.
Speaker 4 (34:05):
Money they should just tell you that every day of your,
life and you should show up to work for free
and at the end of the, week go DO i
get a paycheck this? Week i'm? Sorry looked, again still
not making. Money i'm. Sorry IF i ever make, money at,
This i'll be sure to pay. You i'm so, sorry
because that is if you believe that you're the most
goible person on.
Speaker 3 (34:25):
The, planet that is totally.
Speaker 4 (34:26):
Ridiculous they have every insidive to tell this story and
you should not be that. Goible and the reason why
you're this goible is, because again going back to our original,
point you firmly believe women's sports are different than mensports
and that you don't pay this whatever be retable.
Speaker 1 (34:39):
Right, Well and the last ONE i think that we've
got to add to the storytelling and messaging from the
last couple of years is why would billionaire owners OF
nba teams be fighting to get into a terrible business
that isn't making money and won't.
Speaker 2 (34:53):
Be making money in the.
Speaker 1 (34:54):
Future if you really believe the products so, bad why
is everybody battling to get in on? It And i'm
to take all that, messaging And i'm not taking it
into the comments because the comments are full of bots
and assholes and they're not worth my. Time BUT i
will take it into meaningful conversations with people who are
actually invested.
Speaker 2 (35:10):
In understanding what's going. On ye IF i can just
find Some, david thank you so much as.
Speaker 1 (35:16):
ALWAYS i mean, LITERALLY i have been looking to you
for over a decade for the, informed data, filled researched
information that you, present because we all know that that's the,
truth and it's just just hard to get through to some.
People and apparently some of those people are the very
people running THE, wnba which is a.
Speaker 2 (35:34):
Shame.
Speaker 4 (35:35):
Ye you can only slay the, trolls you can't talk to.
THEM i, never that's not the title of the. Books
not talk to the. Trolls you're even. Slay you don't
know that you've been slay BUT i can't help.
Speaker 2 (35:44):
You, yeah now you, did move. On thank, You, david appreciate.
Speaker 1 (35:50):
It thanks again To david for taking the. TIME i
learned a. LOT i hope you did. Too we got
to take another break when we come, back a new
kind of golf.
Speaker 2 (36:01):
Hazard welcome back.
Speaker 1 (36:07):
Slices we love that you're, listening but we want you
to get in the game every day.
Speaker 2 (36:10):
Too so here's our good game play of the.
Speaker 1 (36:12):
Day Follow david on social media and pick up a
copy of one of his. Books we'll link to his
website and his social media in the show, notes and
maybe take a moment to remember a few greats that
we've lost in the last few. Weeks listen To DiAngelo's
Hot Does It? Feel Or Brown, Sugar Watch Diane keaton
And Something's got To Give Annie hall or one of
my faves as a, Kid Baby, boom and read up
(36:34):
on the amazing life Of Jane, goodall one of my personal.
Heroes go watch her interview For Netflix's Famous Last, words in.
Speaker 2 (36:41):
Which she, said in part, QUOTE i want.
Speaker 1 (36:43):
You to understand that we are part of the natural,
world and even, today when the planet is, dark there's
still is. Hope you have it in your power to
make a. Difference don't give. Up there is a future for.
You do your best while you're still on this beautiful
Planet earth THAT i look down upon from WHERE i.
Speaker 2 (36:59):
Am now end.
Speaker 1 (37:00):
Quote in the WORLD i WISH i lived, in we
would have flown the flag half mass For. Jane we
always love to hear from. You hit us up on,
email good game at wondermedianetwork dot, com or leave us
a voicemail at eight seven two two four fifty, seventy
and don't forget to, subscribe rate and review. Slices it's.
Easy watch More Albatross's Fewer catfishes rating ten out of
(37:25):
Ten New ways To hate The internet. REVIEW a recent
article In The New York times By Carson kessler And
Gabby herzig details a new catfishing scheme involving the LPGA's top.
Players now it's not limited to female, golfers but the
space has become a particularly ripe one for this particular.
Scam the gist of it accounts identify fans of the
(37:46):
tour's top, athletes reach out to them directly impersonating a,
player quickly move the conversation to another, platform and then
begin requesting payment for things LIKE vip, experiences a private,
dinner special access at a tour, event and.
Speaker 2 (37:59):
More some even USE ai altered.
Speaker 1 (38:01):
Videos to speak directly to the, fan using his or
her name to prove that they're. Real fans have lost
thousands of, dollars and sometimes they continue to blame the
athlete for their losses even after being told that they were.
Scammed golfers Like Charlie, Hall Lexi, thompson And Nelly korda
have all had to post warnings to their, followers And
corda pinned a note to the top of Her instagram
(38:22):
saying she can't communicate freely with fans anymore because she
doesn't know their.
Speaker 2 (38:25):
Intentions so. Slices if you've got a dinner.
Speaker 1 (38:28):
On the books With Lydia, coe or if you're investing
in a great new company founded By michelle We, west
no you're. Not you can check out the story via
the link in our show. Notes and to cleanse your
palette of, catfish you can check out a sick Mingy
lee albatross from back in twenty sixteen in the show
notes as. Well And albatross is a rare score of
three strokes under par on a single. Hole now it's your, turn,
(38:51):
y'all rate and. Review come, on go down to those.
Stars select, five tell us you love, Us thanks for,
Listening see you.
Speaker 2 (38:58):
Tomorrow good, Game, David Good.
Speaker 1 (39:00):
Game Lou barnes h calculus and trigonometry and algebra and
basically numbers of any.
Speaker 2 (39:06):
Kind you are not my. Friends i'm friends with.
Speaker 1 (39:08):
Words Good game With Sarah spain is An iHeart women's
sports production in partnership With Deep Blue sports And. Entertainment
you can find us on The iHeartRadio, App Apple, podcasts
or wherever.
Speaker 2 (39:21):
You get your.
Speaker 1 (39:22):
Podcasts production By Wonder Media, network our producers Are Alex
Azzie Grace, Lynch Taylor williamson And Lucy. Jones our executive
producers Are Christina, Everett Jesse, Katz Jenny kaplan And Emily.
Rudder our editors Are Emily, Rudder Britney martinez And Gianna.
Palmer production assistants From AVERY loftus And I'm Your Host
Sarah spain
Host
Sarah Spain
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