Fun At Parties with Kara Goucher

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Good Game with Sarah Spain, where we're reminding
WNBA fans to please keep their dildos to themselves. No judgment, folks,
just keep it off the court. It's Thursday, July thirty first,
and on today's show, we'll be talking with New York
Times best selling author and two time Olympian Kara Goucher
about why she felt compelled to write her book The
Longest Race Inside the Secret world of abuse, doping and

(00:24):
deception on Nike's Elite Running Team. We also talk about
the upcoming USA Track and Field Outdoor Championships and her
reaction to marathon world record holder Ruth Chepineditch getting suspended
for doping, plus the LPGA's Elite hit the Links In
the UK, two beloved players from different sports are back
in action and one WNBA arena gets a Neon Green surprise.

(00:46):
It's all coming up right after this welcome back slices.
Here's what you need to know in track and field.
The twenty twenty five USA Track and Field Outdoor and

(01:06):
Para National Championships get underway today at Hayward Field in Eugene, Oregon, YEP.
That's right, the Para National Championships and outdoor Championships are
combined this year for the first time ever. The nation's
top athletes will compete today through Sunday live on NBC Sports,
Peacock and USATF dot Tv Shkerrie Richardson, Sidney McLaughlin, Lavrony,

(01:30):
Gabby Thomas, Tara Davis, Woodhall and Moore. And once the
week is over, we'll have a new batch of national
champions and we'll know which athletes are going to represent
Team USA in a few months in Tokyo at the
World Athletics Championships. We'll link to the full national championship
schedule in our show Notes to the Diamond. The inaugural
AUSL season came to a close last week with the

(01:51):
Talons claiming the first ever AUSL Championship, and now it's
time for the All Star Cup and the Draft. Tonight,
captains Alisha Ocazio, Lexi Kilfoyle, Amanda Lorenz and Georgina Cork
will select their squads for the first series, which is
set to begin on Saturday. A reminder, the All Star
Cup is a four week competition to crown the ultimate

(02:13):
individual softball champion. It's the same format as the old
Athletes unlimited pro softball. The pool of sixty players is
split into four teams, and each player gets leaderboard points
for both team and individual play, and the top four
players on the leader board will serve as team captains
and draft their new teams each week. The competition runs
through August thirty first, and will make stops in Greenville,

(02:33):
North Carolina, Holly Springs, North Carolina, and Rosemont, Illinois. We'll
link to the Cup schedule and tickets in our show
notes in Golf News. The opening round of the AIG
Women's Open is today. The best of the best are
all congregated at Royal Porthcull Golf Club in Wales for
four days of championship competition. Lydia Coe won the Open
last year and enters this year's contest ranked number three

(02:56):
in the world. The top golfer will take home one million,
four hundred sixty two thousand, five hundred dollars when it's
all said and done, the highest amount in the AIG
Women's opens forty nine year history. Tune into the action
on USA Network today from seven am to two pm
Eastern or streaming live on nbcsports dot Com and the
NBC Sports app. We'll link to the full broadcast and

(03:18):
streaming schedule in our show notes. In WNBA news, Cambrink
is back baby, after a thirteen month absence recovering from
acl and meniscus tears. The former Stanford Star and second
year player with the La Sparks hit the court on
Tuesday night. She was still on a minute's restriction, but
she registered five points, three rebounds, one steal, and one

(03:38):
block in about fourteen minutes on the floor in her
team's eighty nine seventy four loss to the Las Vegas Aces.
Brink's first shot also a make all net from three.
Gotta love it. It wasn't a lot of time, but
the little glimpses of greatness that we saw reminded us
why Brink was the number two overall pick in the
twenty twenty four draft. So glad to see her back
out there now. While bring was settling in Asia, Wilson

(04:02):
was going off a dominant performance for the Ace of
Superstar in the win. The three time league MVP posted
thirty four points, half of which came in the first quarter,
and added ten rebounds. Wilson's teammate Jackie Young notched her
first career triple double in the victory with eighteen points,
eleven rebounds, and ten assists. More WNBA, my Chicago Sky

(04:23):
are hurt and y'all in the standings and literally the
team got down to as few as eight available players
over the weekend and with very few options at point guard,
They've signed to sevegy Uzen to a rest of season deal.
The Turkish player and former euro League champions started the
twenty twenty five season with the Phoenix Mercury, but was
waived on June second. To make space for Uzen. The

(04:43):
Sky waved eight year vet Mariah Jefferson. Now the Sky
is still without the services of score Ariel Atkins, backup
point guard Haley Benlet, and fan favorite Courtney Vanderslute, who's
out for the season with an ACL tear off the court.
We've got a conclusion to an upsetting story we first
told you about months ago. On Monday, a fifty five
year old Denton, Texas man named Michael Lewis was sentenced

(05:05):
to two and a half years in prison for stalking
and harassing twenty three year old Indiana Fever guard Caitlin Clark.
Now Lewis was arrested back on January twelfth, with authorities
alleging that he sent hundreds of threats and sexually explicit
messages to Clark on X. The FBI tracked the IP
addresses of Lewis's messages to a hotel in downtown Indianapolis
as well as the Indianapolis Public Library. He pleaded guilty

(05:27):
to one felonycount of stocking and one misdemeanor counter harassment,
and in addition to the prison time, was ordered to
stay away from Gainbridge field House, hanklefield House, Fever events,
and Indiana Pacers organization events, as well as to have
no contact with Clark. Lewis also will not be allowed
internet access during his sentence. Finally, in NWSL Happenings, friend

(05:49):
of the Show and Angel City FC veteran defender Ali
Riley has been removed from the season ending injury list.
The team announced the change via a press release on Tuesday. Riley,
a fan faise and team captain for ACFC, was initially
moved to the list because of a chronic and persistent
leg injury midway through last season. In a team statement,
Riley spoke about the elation of this moment, saying quote,

(06:11):
this could easily have been a career ending injury, and
nobody could tell me for sure that it wasn't. So
I'm overwhelmed with joy at reaching this milestone. While I'm
really proud of myself for not giving up, I'm even
more grateful for all the medical professionals who never gave
up on me, and my teammates for supporting me when
I didn't know if I would ever kick a ball again.
I was out for a long time, so I'm gonna
have to work really hard to wear the jersey again,

(06:33):
but I'm going to give it everything I've got, and
with these players by my side, I have to believe
that anything is possible. End quote. We hate injuries, but
we do love watching players come back. It's always so sweet.
So welcome back ally. All right, slices, it's time for
a brand new segment called Are you Seeing what I'm seeing?

(06:54):
My God? I believe this is I heard talking about
Meish Alex. Get in here. We got some tea to
spill today, and it's of the hoops and straight shit variety.

Speaker 2 (07:07):
I guess.

Speaker 1 (07:07):
Okay, give it a chance, that'd be good. Okay, So
there have been rumors circulating on social media that Chicago
Sky Star Angel Reese and Wendell Carter Junior of the
mnba's Orlando Magic have been dating, and on Tuesday, when
the Sky were warming up to play the Washington Mystics,
folks tuned into the game and noticed something around Reese's neck,

(07:28):
a necklace with the initials w c J Wendell Carter Junior.
Okay now recent Carter have not confirmed their relationship publicly,
but she was spotted at a couple Magic games last season.
He was in attendance at her birthday party in May,
and the two were spotted together on the court at
the MNBA All Star Game, and he.

Speaker 3 (07:49):
Was wearing a shirt with her face on it at
All Star.

Speaker 1 (07:53):
Yeah yeah, now Angels having fun with the rumors. After
a fan posted about her necklace, she reposted another user response,
women can't even wear necklaces that stand for wisdom, courage,
and joy anymore. Snort. I mean, it's no asy fudd
showing up to a Wings game wearing a shirt that
says I heart PEB number five.

Speaker 3 (08:15):
I love peanut butter too.

Speaker 1 (08:17):
We all love peanut butter, but I like this. I
like the little hints that we're getting, Like, I think
this is way more fun than when two people just
like post a picture together at something and they're like,
we together, like scavenger hunt if you will. I like that.

Speaker 2 (08:33):
Asia Wilson has set the tone. She and her MNBA
bo I love it. Keep it going straight people.

Speaker 3 (08:40):
So I do have to say, and yeah, this is
not saying anything bad about hoops and straight shit, but
I pay so little attention to men's sports that this
man means nothing to me, Like literally no idea who
he is?

Speaker 4 (08:53):
Is he good?

Speaker 1 (08:55):
You know he's in the NBA, so yes, that takes
a bit of work. He averaged about nine points a
game last year. He ain't He's no Angel Rees. And
you know what, I have to agree with you, Alex.
Most of the time, I'm much more excited about hoops
and gay shit. Right, I'm like, oh, I know both
those people, and that's more exciting than like, I don't
know that guy's probably know. Is this gonna last? Oh?

(09:21):
All right, miss clearly upset about spending this much time
on straight shit. We gotta take a break. When we
come back, we're kicking it with Carra Goucher.

Speaker 3 (09:28):
Be right back.

Speaker 1 (09:37):
Welcome Max Slices. Now, before we jump into this interview,
I just want to let you know that this conversation
does include a really brief discussion of sexual abuse and harassment. Okay,
here's my conversation with Kara joining us now. She's a
three time NCAA champion, two time Olympian, a podium finisher
at the Boston and New York Marathons, and the New
York Times best selling author of The Longest Race in

(10:00):
the Secret World of Abuse, doping and Deception. On Nike's
Elite Running team, she co hosts the running commentary podcast
Nobody Asked Us with fellow distance runner Des Linden, and
she's done a lot of announcer and analyst work, including
working as the lead distance analyst for NBC covering things
like major marathons and the Olympics. She's a proud Minnesotan
who somehow convinced her kid to make a dance video

(10:20):
to old people music aka bel Bivdebo. It's Cara Goucher.

Speaker 4 (10:24):
Hi, Kara, Hi Sarah, how are you?

Speaker 1 (10:27):
I'm good. I'm so excited to have you on. You're
just a legend of the game, and not just as
a great, fantastic athlete, but as someone who speaks up
about things and has good opinions, So we're going to
get some of those before we get into the current
happenings in the world of track and the upcoming outdoor
national Championships. I want to talk about your book and
why you wanted to open up about major issues in

(10:49):
your life and in the sport of track and field.
Why was the time right and why did you feel
like you needed to get it out.

Speaker 5 (10:57):
I think the time was right just because I had
sort of stepped away from competitive running so I could
actually sort of deal with some of the stuff I
had gone through. And I just started to feel, honestly
like if I didn't share my story, it was just
going to repeat and happen to someone else. And then
I felt the responsibility that maybe I could do something
about that and I could protect the future generation. So
it just felt like the timing was right, and I

(11:18):
was nervous about it and it was terrifying, but I
feel really relieved.

Speaker 1 (11:22):
That I did it. Yeah, I think reflection can change
how we see things. In fact, you have an Instagram
post that's pinned that I love from just a few
years ago. Your son urged you to get the Olympic
Rings tattoo that so many Olympians get that. I would
have if I was allowed to, even though I'm not
an Olympian, because it's the coolest thing ever. Can you
share why you didn't get it initially and how your

(11:44):
son actually helped you to see yourself differently?

Speaker 4 (11:46):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (11:47):
I think the first Olympic team I made was in
two thousand and eight and I was coming off a
World Championship where I had meddled, so I was expected
to meddle at the Olympics and I didn't, and I
felt like I just let everybody down. I felt like
let my team down, my family down, my country down.
So I didn't feel like I earned the tattoo that.
In twenty twelve, I was sort of coming back from
having given birth to my son, and while I ran solidly,
I didn't again I didn't meddle, and I felt like, well,

(12:09):
maybe in twenty sixteen, when I really do something, then
I'll have earned it. And then I didn't make the
team in twenty sixteen. I missed it by a spot.
So all those years went by and I just thought, well,
I'll just never get it, and my son started to
really say, Mom.

Speaker 4 (12:22):
You should get it, you should get it, you should be.

Speaker 5 (12:24):
Proud you met your goal becoming an Olympian, and he,
I mean honestly, like this little kid talked me into
going and many many years later going and getting my
Olympick rings tattoo.

Speaker 1 (12:34):
I love that. I was listening to a podcast the
other day and they described female friends as the kinder
and more realistic mirror that we need because we're never
going to see ourselves in the way everybody else sees us.
Our friends see us who think we're beautiful and kind
and fun and funny and wonderful and smart, and we're
so hard on ourselves that you need those people. And

(12:54):
it sounds like your son was like really seeing you,
like like a multi time olympian, like you've earned it.

Speaker 4 (13:00):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (13:00):
I mean it was seriously fifteen years after I made
the Olympic team that I got it. But I love
it now and I'm really proud to have it. And
he has helped me see, like, look at my past differently.
I always did the best I could. I showed up
the best I could, and he's really helped me see
that and healed me quite a bit.

Speaker 1 (13:16):
Reparenting ourselves by parenting our children is a very common
theme among people of a certain age, for sure. You
touch on a lot of tough topics in the book,
from pay inequity, to verbal and sexual abuse, the pressure
to use performance enhancing substances, to how female athletes are
misrepresented in the media. Which topic of all the things
that you wrote about in your book scared you the

(13:36):
most to get brutally honest and go public about.

Speaker 5 (13:39):
Uh, definitely the sexual abuse. I think, you know, I
had kept it a secret for so long, and I
felt like there were so many people that were going
to say exactly what ended up happening was that I
made it up, and I'm a liar, and I'm vindictive
and all those types of things. And I think when
you're abused in a situation like that, I was an
adult and I wasn't fresh out of college. I was married,

(14:00):
he's a part of husband, and to find yourself in
a situation where that happens, there's a lot of embarrassment
and shame that goes along with it. And so that
definitely was the thing that I kept putting in the
book and then taking out and putting it back in
and taking it out.

Speaker 1 (14:14):
It's so necessary to talk about, though, because so many women,
in particular do feel shame about incidents like that, even
if it is not in any way their fault, and
it's a second victimization that we do to ourselves, wondering
why we didn't make different decisions in those moments of harassment, abuse,
or otherwise. This was your coach, Alberto Salazar, legendary name
in the sport. He worked with the Nike Oregon Project,

(14:37):
an elite Nike sponsored professional training team. You started out
accusing him in twenty fifteen publicly of skirting anti doping
rules with the runners on that team, and it wasn't
until you testified later twenty eighteen to twenty twenty one
talking about not just the doping accusations, but also that
sexual and emotional abuse that you suffered at his hands.
What did your family think? How did you tell them

(15:00):
about that? Because, like you said, you were in a
family unit when this was happening, and it wasn't until
you had the courage to speak up publicly about them
that you also had to acknowledge that your family would
hear about it and it would be talked about publicly.
How'd you handle that?

Speaker 4 (15:13):
It was really hard?

Speaker 5 (15:14):
You know, there was things I had just kept from
my family and thinking back, it was a way of
me trying to protect them. They were so supportive of
everything I did. They were so supportive when I spoke
out about the doping stuff and when I spoke out
about things that I thought were unjust. And then again,
like you said, there's this revictimization, a lot of guilt
that I hadn't told them everything that had happened. But

(15:35):
when I was going through the actually the doping hearings,
that's when it was discovered, when I admitted to the
sexual abuse, that it had to be reported to save sport.
And it kind of, you know, I felt again like
my stories being told by other people. Now I'm losing
you know, I'm not I don't even get to tell
my family potentially that I was sexually assaulted, like they're
going to read about it. And so that's when I

(15:57):
finally told my family, and it was really hard, a
lot of tears, but I will say it was they
were so supportive, to be totally honest, no one seemed
incredibly surprised. And you know, my mom has always just
been such a champion of like, you know, I had
told them before that he had come on to me,
but I had never told them about the abuse, and

(16:17):
my mom even then was like, this is on him,
don't take any of his shame. He's the one that
fit should feel it. And they all, you know, I
have two sisters and a mom, and they really circled
me again and helped me a lot through that.

Speaker 1 (16:29):
He ended up getting a lifetime ban from coaching USA
Track and Field athletics in part because of your bravery.
I have to tell you I had an incident with
someone who had sectually harassed me, and I was supposed
to be set up to work with him again, and
I went and told my boss that I wouldn't be
comfortable going to this event if you would be there
not realizing the same thing. It would trigger an automatic

(16:50):
reporting to the company that I worked at, and then
I'd have to deal with it. And I told them
I don't really want to do anything about this because
I'm just starting and I'm going to get screwed in
this to be the one that I get something attached
to my name that I'm a problem, or I lie,
or I cause issues because he was very high up,
and I still feel guilty that I haven't like publicly

(17:11):
called him out even now when I have the agency
to do so, because who knows if he's harassing other
people at a different place, in a different time in
his career. But there is still such a feeling of like,
if you say something, that's going to be a part
of your story and it's not my choice. I didn't
choose that he would do that. So I just want
to say again, like, how powerful it is that you

(17:32):
spoke about it and saved a lot of people from
having that same thing happened to them, and did get
something very meaningful accomplished as a result of you being
willing to speak out.

Speaker 5 (17:42):
I just want to say to you, everybody's on their
own timeline and everybody heals differently, and it's not your
responsibility to it. Really, isn't your responsibility to make this
hold this person accountable. I just got to a point
where I knew that other people were potentially in danger,
and then I felt like, oh god, now that does

(18:03):
feel sticky. I felt like my nieces are really good athletes.
I could see them ending up in a situation like this,
But everybody heals differently and it takes time and there
is no right or wrong way.

Speaker 1 (18:14):
Yeah, you spoke up again in twenty nineteen, you joined
fellow former Nike teammates in a New York Times op
ed to criticize the company's handling a female athletes during
it after their pregnancy. There's so many risks involved with
all the different ways you wanted to speak out from
within the sport about the sport. Any regrets or did

(18:34):
it give you permission in the rest of your life
to say, Okay, here's what I'm allowing, here's what I'm not.

Speaker 5 (18:40):
I mean, I really don't have any regrets. I think
there were times where I thought, Oh, everyone's just going
to see me as this complainer, and I do get
labeled that way, But I think I was able to
weather that storm and now come out the other side.
And I don't think that if I had, if I
hadn't shared all the things I had gone through, I
wouldn't be able to love the sport the way I
still love it. I wouldn't be able to be involved
the way I'm involved, because there's just too much pain

(19:02):
behind the scenes and honestly, just too much fear of
the big players involved. And so it would have been
easier to just stay quiet and sort of disappear from it.
But then I felt like they're still winning. I don't
even get to be involved in the sport I love,
so I don't have any regrets.

Speaker 4 (19:17):
It was always harder than I thought it.

Speaker 5 (19:19):
Was gonna be. I'm like an eternal optimist, and every
stuff was harder than I thought it was going to be,
every step of the way. But you know, it's so freeing, Sarah.
I just am who I am. I'm not gonna hold
anything back. I'm gonna say what I think is right
or wrong, and it's super freeing to be on this side.

Speaker 1 (19:37):
It is. When I started out in my career and
I spoke out about stuff, I hated being called like
a nag or like you must be fund at parties,
and I'm like, great, I am, I'm actually like a
party party. Yeah yeah, Like I'm like, I'm a really
happy person. I think everything's awesome. But also I think
it's bullshit when we don't call out inequities and things
that are wrong. And so eventually I just had to

(19:57):
be like the people who are gonna say I'm not
fun at party, or I'm anag or whatever, I'm a complainer.
They are people who want to just abide by the
status quo because it's serving them and if I disrupt
that for them, yeah, it's nicely on the other side.
To your point, you continue to give opinions on your podcast,
which is called Nobody Asked Us. You and your co

(20:17):
hosts London. You hosted your first elite racing event this
past May called Save the ten thousand with dezen Kara.
Why did it need saving and how did the event go?

Speaker 4 (20:27):
That's a great question.

Speaker 5 (20:28):
So one of the the things as the Olympic evolves,
they talk about removing events, and the ten thousand is
an event that's constantly talked about being removed. It is
a long race, it's twenty five laps on the track,
and unless it's told correctly, it can be boring if
you don't understand what you're watching. But the ten thousand
is the event in which put me on the map
and gave me so much opportunity. So it is near
and dear to my heart. And this past summer at

(20:50):
the Paris Olympic, Scrant Fisher from the United States won
a bronze medal and it got a lot of hype
and it got attention from JJ Watt like people who
are not track and field enthusiasts, and certainly not distance enthusiasts.
But we still see even this year, we see opportunities
made less and less than the ten thousand, and there's
really only a couple ten thousands, and you have to

(21:11):
race a ten thousand, you know, to even qualify for
the World champs.

Speaker 4 (21:14):
You have to race it.

Speaker 5 (21:15):
You have to run a certain time or get enough points.
And for a lot of athletes in the world, there
aren't enough opportunities anymore. And so Desna, you know, we've
had some good fortune with our podcast, it's been good
for us. We thought, what if we actually did something
that was tangible and helped other athletes. I will say
again eternal optimist. It was way harder to get off
the ground.

Speaker 4 (21:33):
I thought.

Speaker 5 (21:34):
I just thought everyone would sign off on it and
it would be great because we're giving an opportunity. I
thought athletes would flock to it and ended up being
quite small fields. But you know, they got points. They
all walked away with no one got less than a
thousand dollars, which in distance runniness a lot. You know,
we gave way forty four thousand dollars in prize money
that we raised through sponsors and through hey had a

(21:55):
virtual race to raise money, and so it was great
and we'll do it again next year and hope the
fields will just get deeper and deeper.

Speaker 1 (22:02):
I want you to save the ten thousand. I also
always say, when I'm watching it, being like a short
distance I was a caathlete, I'm always like, if you
can run a commercial in the middle of my race,
I'm not running. That race is too long. I know
it is able to run a commercial while I'm competing
and come back and be like still at it. But

(22:22):
I love that you did that, and it is so important.
I think so many people in the podcasting and like
media world are starting to understand how to break through
the fourth wall and create some stuff in the world
to help change the game. Tell me about your focal
dystonia diagnosis. This happened in twenty twenty two. Because I
know you are still such a part of the running
world and you still run a lot. How are you

(22:43):
adjusting to life where running isn't automatic? It isn't easy
every time you do it.

Speaker 4 (22:49):
It's been really hard.

Speaker 5 (22:50):
I have to say, of all the things that I
couldn't diagnosed with, this feels like the meanest thing because
I love running so much. And I have since I
was a kid. I'm forty seven and I've been running
since i was six, and so just feel super cruel.
But I have this repetitive movement to stonia, so I
can't feel. I have no control over my lower left
leg when running, and there are times where it's not
that bad and I can go and run, and then

(23:11):
there are times where it's so bad that I have
no awareness, so I don't know that it's hit the ground,
and so I've fallen many times. Even though it landed,
I don't know that it landed, and so there will
be times where even it's hard for me to walk.
And I have had to have the cane before, and
so it's been really hard.

Speaker 4 (23:28):
I have seen everybody about it. I have tried everything.

Speaker 5 (23:33):
There isn't a lot in the research on this, and
so I'm really open minded about everything.

Speaker 4 (23:39):
But I do get botox, which so basically.

Speaker 5 (23:41):
Your brain sends a signal for everything to fire at
once instead of the muscles you actually need. So I
get botox quarterly, which is good and bad because it
cuts that signal from my brain. But it also I
don't have you know, fine motor control of it either,
so it's allowed me to run, not as much as
I would like. But you know, for instance, today was
dropping my son off at driver's that I've been driving

(24:03):
by this trail I love. I was like, I'm going
to go run four miles today, and I caught a
good day, so I ended up going eight. So I
really just try to be grateful on the days that
are good and take advantage of them, and on the
days that are bad, I try to remember it will
it will get better.

Speaker 1 (24:16):
Yeah, that's really hard. I'm sorry you're dealing with that.
I have a number of post collegiate injuries that keep
me from running it all, even jogging, and I'm still
determined to keep like working my way back to it.
And it's funny how I'm sure you never felt this
way because you're one of those crazy distance people. But
every once in a while I would go out for
a jog and be like, h I don't want to
run today, And now it's like every day wake up

(24:36):
and I'm like, oh, I wish I could go for
a run. Like you really take it for granted when
everything is working right. So if you're listening to this
and you can just go for a jog with no problems.
Go do it, Go do it, keep doing it, keep
your body moving. I want to talk about Ruth Chepin
get it to set the marathon world record at the
twenty twenty four Chicago Marathon in October before testing positive

(24:57):
for a band diuretic in a 'ur ine sample. That
was this March. She's been provisionally suspended. She could face
a two year band if she's found guilty of the
anti doping violation. And if she's found guilty, I'm wondering
what happens to her titles, her prize money, her records.

Speaker 5 (25:14):
To be honest with you, nothing happens unless something is
discovered in the investigation that we don't know about yet.
It's a diuretic which only carries, as you said, it
to your band maximum. And her world record has been ratified.
She was tested before and after that world record has
already been ratified.

Speaker 4 (25:31):
All of her titles, her.

Speaker 5 (25:32):
World Championship title from twenty nineteen, her three Chicago Marathon titles,
they have all also she has passed the doping control
for those races. So this is the unfortunate part about
doping bands is that they often don't change anything. I mean,
she could be eligible to compete in even less than
two years potentially because she's been it seems as though

(25:53):
she's been cooperating, so nothing changes. The world record is
still two to nine fifty six, and it's good that
that someone got caught. But again, she got caught for
a diuretic. She didn't get caught for a performance enhancing drug.
Now we know the diuretic was to hide that. That's
why that's why they're banned, because it masks it. It
increases your urinflow, and so when they tested, it's diluted.

(26:16):
But that's just the uncomfortableness of this, Like, she didn't
actually test positive for her performance enhancing drug, and it
changes nothing about her history. Everything stands.

Speaker 1 (26:24):
So you said that she was tested before and after.
I'm not sure how those diuretics work in terms of
masking what she might be taking. Is it possible she
was on whatever performance enhancing thing during that time and
was able to test through it and the diuretic just
didn't show up until later. Or would she likely have
been cleaned during that testing period and then later test

(26:46):
negative or positive for the diuretic?

Speaker 4 (26:48):
What's most likely?

Speaker 5 (26:49):
And I don't I don't want to necessarily say she
was doping before, because I don't actually know. I think,
you know, there's a lot of reasons to be suspicious
of the two nine fifty.

Speaker 1 (26:58):
Six, But it was like two it's faster, right than.

Speaker 5 (27:01):
Yeah, it was two minutes faster than the existing world record.
It was a significant personal best for her, I think
a fourteen minute personal best. So I mean, it wasn't
like it wasn't like, you know, she had been knocking
on the wall, but we don't know. I'm sure she's
been drug tested. She's been one of the best runners
in the world for a long time. Unfortunately, what probably
happened is that she was never tested while while while glowing. Right,

(27:27):
these people are microdocene and this diuretic that was in
her system was extremely high, which says to me she
was trying to hide something. You know, she found out
she was going to get tested, and she knew that
there was a chance she was going to test positive,
so she took the.

Speaker 1 (27:40):
Diuretic like two hundred times the normal mode or something.

Speaker 5 (27:43):
Right, Yeah, so there is a small amount that's allowed
just in case of contamination, but yeah, it was one
hundred and ninety times the allowable limit. So This wasn't
like a oops, it was in my whatever, you know,
So it's really hard to know. I think there's a
lot of reasons to be suspicious of the results before,
but unfortunately she was passing tests before, so all of
her previous accomplishment stand.

Speaker 1 (28:04):
It's so hard in this sport. We have had Alicia
Montano on our show who like twice has gotten a
medal like years after and like great, But I want
it in the moment when I just ran the race,
when I earned it. I don't want it because somebody
else was proven to have cheated later and then it
comes around to me being sent in the mail. I mean,
at least they're doing a little better with that awarding

(28:24):
them at Olympics. But you know, when you've when you've
got a world record that everyone kind of knows might
be a little bit tainted, do you discuss her previous
success differently? Does the next time someone gets near it
is their resentment in the sport that that person might
have actually broken it and done it fairly?

Speaker 5 (28:45):
Yeah, I mean that definitely happens. I mean this always
opens up a can of worms. What is the real
real world record? And where I get uncomfortable is that
it always goes back to an American or a white
European woman, And that's where I start to get uncomfortable, like, okay,
you know, like every buddy cheats but us, that's just
not true, you know, But that will be the conversation.

(29:05):
What is the world record? Is it the two eleven
fifty three or is it Sefonissan's two thirteen, or is
it the two fourteen or what is it? And unfortunately,
like that's just the world that track and field athletes
live in. I mean, we don't know. And right now
world records in American records and national records are in
free fall with shoe technology that was introduced in twenty nineteen,

(29:26):
and so it's really hard to know to parse out
what is like slightly new training and technology and what
is not right. And so I think, but this will
lead to those conversations. Yes, And the thing is, for
all of the anger around this, which I do understand,
the world record will still stand at two o nine
fifty six, And for all the people that believe that

(29:46):
wasn't possible, Well, what happens if in four year someone
does break that, you know what I mean?

Speaker 1 (29:53):
So it is yeah, yeah, So if you get to
keep the prize money. I assume you don't keep it
if you test negative or test positive or something right
after right, that's the only time it has to be
within that small window, otherwise you keep it. Is it
an unavoidable reality then that runners will always be looking
for that little edge or work around or even just
blatant cheating if it means dropping time and making money.

Speaker 5 (30:16):
I think that it is inevitable, yes, And I think
you have to also look at cultures. I mean, Ruth
is from Kenya, where money goes so far and it's
not just Ruth's right. So Ruth is now banned. We
know she's going to be banned, we don't know for
how long, but we know she's going to be banned.
But her coaches, her agents, her suppliers, they continue on.
So the system actually isn't changed. And I think you

(30:37):
have to sort of look at it somewhere like Kenya.
To run a world record, or to run or to
win a world marathon major, we're looking at generational wealth
and so many people are benefiting from that, so it's
really hard. I think in the US we have this
thing like, well, I want to run fast because I
want to do it for my country, or I want

(30:58):
to earn the money or this or that. But like,
the motivations are different in different places, and so I
think that doping is going to be a problem forever,
and not justin Kenny. I think here, and I mean we.

Speaker 1 (31:07):
Saw with the Oregon project, we saw at the highest
level with Nike, where you have all the funding in
the world, right, Yeah, So.

Speaker 5 (31:14):
I think it's just always going to be a battle unfortunately.

Speaker 1 (31:17):
Yeah, this might be a controversial question, but one of
the longest world records on the books is still the
late Florence Griffith Joiner's mark in the one hundred meters
from nineteen eighty eight. She also owns the two hundred
meter world record. With every year that goes by, those
marks feel either more impressive or more suspicious, depending on
how you view it. Do you have thoughts on that.

Speaker 5 (31:38):
Well, sir, that's an extremely controversial question.

Speaker 1 (31:43):
She was just like anything you have to say.

Speaker 5 (31:46):
I will say this that I grew up worshiping flow Joe.
My name in French class was Flora Hans for Florence
scriviage amazing, and I had her sports illustrated pictures and
I loved her nails and everything. I think, knowing what
I know now, it is harder for me to believe
that that was done without any aid. But again, and

(32:08):
this is something that I think there's a larger conversation around.
You know, there were no positive tests around her. There is,
so it's sort of like you have to just take it.
And even though knowing what I know now, yeah, I
definitely think, Wow, that is pretty crazy that she ran
that fast on those surfaces and those spikes, and it
still stands. You know, I just think it's dangerous when

(32:30):
we get to this place where we just start accusing people.
And that's that's kind of what we saw with Ruth,
the way that people would just said, oh, she's doping,
And I just feel like, until there's the proof, it's uncomfortable.

Speaker 4 (32:42):
But Flojo, of course is.

Speaker 5 (32:44):
Like a hot button topic because we love her, we
worship her, but there is to be suspicious, yeah, and
some people are yeah.

Speaker 1 (32:52):
And it would be hard to go back and litigate. Now,
let's talk about the now. US Track and Field. The
Outdoor Championships and Paranational Tchampionships are happening this week in Eugene, Oregon,
starting this Thursday, running through Sunday, you'll be covering the
event for NBC. So I want to start with just
a technical thing. The top three finishers in each individual
event who have also met the World Athletics Championship standard

(33:15):
earned spots on the US team for the World Athletic
Championships in Tokyo in September. But there are other ways
to qualify.

Speaker 5 (33:22):
Yes, yeah, so if you're a defending champion or a
ragning champion, So for instance, Carry Richardson is automatically in
because she is the reigning world champion. If you don't
have the qualifying time, there.

Speaker 4 (33:32):
Is also a quota.

Speaker 5 (33:34):
So if you've placed in the top three at the
US Championships but you don't have the time at the end,
if you're in the quota, so that's as many athletes
as are allowed per event. If you are ranked in
that quota, then you also get to go okay.

Speaker 1 (33:47):
So Sidney McLaughlin Lavroni is skipping the four hundimeter hurdles
to focus on the four hundred open. Does that mean
she won't compete in the hurdles in Tokyo either? Because
didn't she miss out on the World Championships because of.

Speaker 4 (33:57):
Injury yeah, you're correct.

Speaker 5 (33:58):
She is not the She did not race last time
because she was injured, so she is not the reigning champion.
She does not have an automatic buy, so she is
literally saying, I'm not running the four hundred meter hurdles.
I think, and I don't call her races, but I
feel confident in the team I work with, and I
can say that there's a lot of talk about Sydney
really trying to elevate herself and become the goat and

(34:20):
what does that look like? That looks like a double
in LA. That looks like a hurdle flat double. And
so now she's really focusing on We know she can.

Speaker 4 (34:28):
Do the hurdles.

Speaker 1 (34:29):
She's the best to ever do it over and over
and over.

Speaker 4 (34:34):
A yeah, I mean it's incredible.

Speaker 5 (34:35):
It's incredible raising herself at this point. The women around
her just keep getting better, but yet she still makes
them look JV.

Speaker 4 (34:42):
I mean, it's like crazy, right.

Speaker 5 (34:43):
So she's so talented that once in a lifetime generation athlete, obviously,
but I think she wants more. So I think that's
what we're seeing is the focus on this four hundred.
I know there's been frustration that the American record hasn't
gone down. I don't think Sonya Richards Ross has been
sad that it hasn't been broken yet.

Speaker 4 (35:00):
But I think that'll be a big focus.

Speaker 1 (35:02):
Yeah, and it makes sense, you know, it's kind of
you think, how could you not want to raise the
thing that you're not certain to win but pretty close,
but to have herself have a challenge in front of
her that feels like it will also add to her
lore to do the double one of the storylines that
you're most excited to follow at nationals.

Speaker 5 (35:19):
Oh my gosh, there's so many. I think the women's
eight hundred is really interesting. We see a thing mo
NIKOLAIAV who's been coming back from sort of like a
down period in her career, but seems to be inching
her way back while she'd be able to do it
in the eight hundred. The women's fifteen hundred is incredibly strong.
The US team Nicki Hilts has been basically unstoppable. They've

(35:40):
just been incredible the last two years. They come in
as the you know, defending champion. Sinclair Johnson looks good,
a couple other women that event, in particular for the US,
looks very very good. And then I think the five
thousand and the ten thousand are a little bit more open.
I think Wayney Colati is kind of a sure thing
in the ten thousand, but the rest of it is
a little bit more open, which we haven't seen that
very like distinct the top.

Speaker 4 (36:01):
Two or three the last couple of years.

Speaker 5 (36:02):
So it gives someone a chance with a new name
to kind of break through.

Speaker 1 (36:06):
Okay, this might be a dumb question, but I've always
kind of wondered this. The fifteen hundred and the mile
are so close. It's like one hundred meter difference. So
why isn't the same person always winning both of those.

Speaker 5 (36:19):
That's a great question, and you would think it would
just be the same person, But you know, I think
of someone like, I mean, this is a man, but
Yard Neigus just loves that extra one hundred and nine meters.

Speaker 4 (36:29):
He just feels like that separates.

Speaker 5 (36:31):
Him from the rest. And you know, Nicki Hilts had
the American record in the mile and just really and
that last hundred was able to break away from the
rest of the Americans in that race. Sinclair Johnson just
broke their record. But it is interesting, it's a little
bit strength based that little bit of extra one hundred
and nine meters. Some some athletes just are better at it.

Speaker 1 (36:50):
Yeah, for those listening, you might remember in a previous show,
we had our minds blown cartoon style by the fact
that it's actually sixteen and nine meters. Yeah, for the mile.
I was a D one track athlete. I somehow never
knew that, but also because I would never be running
the mile.

Speaker 4 (37:07):
Yeah, well that is funny.

Speaker 5 (37:08):
It's like they line you up and then they back
you up nine meters, you know. Yeah, it's pretty wild.

Speaker 1 (37:14):
I want to talk about Grand Slam Track because Michael
Johnson revealed last week it's in a multi million dollar
hole because an investor backed out of their full commitment.
They had to cancel an event. Front Office Sports is
reporting that the league owes athletes at least thirteen million
dollars and vendors large sums of money as well. It
is such a shame to see a big swing like this,
this great opportunity for athletes financially and in terms of

(37:36):
places to run and ways to run. To see it
struggle this early on, and if it is simply an
investor backing out, that feels like contracts you they'll be
able to fight it. But what are you hearing about
the future of Grand Slam track. Whether or not it's
an investor's fault, this still has a great impact on
what the future might look like.

Speaker 5 (37:52):
I think it'll be really hard for athletes to sign
on to this moving forward after what happened this year.
I think there was a lot of promises in Grand
Slam and a lot of opportunity.

Speaker 4 (38:02):
Some of it felt too big.

Speaker 5 (38:04):
You know. I had been approached by Grand Slam to
join the broadcast team, and some of the promise felt
a little bit too big for me, and it just
didn't work out with my schedule. But I think the
money that the athletes were making it was worth it
for them. Even if it was a one year deal,
it was worth it for them. But now we're hearing
that while appearance fees have been paid out, prize money
has not not even to Gabby Thomas, you know, the
Olympic champion, three time Olympic champion from Paris. She said

(38:27):
the other day they made a really cool TikTok about
her and she's like, cool, can you pay me?

Speaker 1 (38:31):
Yeah?

Speaker 5 (38:31):
You know, And so I think this is going to
be a big problem moving forward because there are other
opportunities that those athletes said no to. They said no
to Diamond League races, they said no to pace efforts
against the best competition in the world, to try out
this new formula and make some money. And now you
know they're there right now, they're not being paid. I

(38:52):
think hopefully it'll all get worked out. I love that
they tried something new. I think that's great. I think
that's what the sport needs.

Speaker 4 (38:59):
I found them.

Speaker 5 (38:59):
Me it's very interesting and very exciting to see the
athletes come back, but it's hard for me to imagine
who would sign on to it in year two.

Speaker 1 (39:07):
Yeah, so we've got Diamond League, We've got Grand Slam,
We've got athlos which is much shorter events. The maxis
since they had was fifteen hundred. They are adding a
long jump this upcoming fall event, which will be cool
to see. But you know, some of these events are
pretty limited in what they offer, but there's still something
to try to change the space. And I think a
lot of the criticisms around Diamond League is that it

(39:27):
hasn't really taken advantage of being the premier quote unquote league.
They just kind of settle for what they've always done.
What would you like to see in the space as
the efforts to continue to grow track and field outside
of Olympic and even championship events continues.

Speaker 5 (39:43):
I love what Athlos is doing. Next year they're going
to have four meets, which I think will be really exciting.
This year they're adding the long jump. You know, they
had brought on Tara Davis Woodall as an investor. I mean,
great idea. She is iconic. Everyone loves her. Her and her husband,
who's an Olympic gold medals in the Paralympics, so and
she's the gold medals in the long jump. So just
a power couple. And I love what they're doing there.

(40:03):
I agree with you that the Diamond League has been
the standard forever and it's almost like they don't have
to reinvent the wheel, but just like join the twenty
first century a little bit.

Speaker 1 (40:12):
Yeah, get in a car.

Speaker 5 (40:14):
Yeah, it'd be like that would be great because they're reliable.
We know the races are going to be good. We
know they're going to have all the events. We know
that typically the weather is good. I mean they're laid
out on the calendar with the best weather for each location,
so we know it's going to be reliable competition, but
just get on board and maybe pay the athletes a
little bit more. And I think that's the biggest thing
holding the Diamond League back, is that the good thing

(40:36):
is that it has more spots on the track, it
has more events, it has field, it has everything. But
the way the athletes get paid through Diamond Leak isn't
that great. And we just if we want to move forward,
we got to start paying the athletes.

Speaker 1 (40:48):
We did see a little nudge after ATHLETs essentially called
them out publicly by saying we're paying more than they are,
and so they uped it a little bit. But maybe
they just need a few more a few more nudges.
I love talking to you, just could pick your brain
all day. Thank you so much for the time. We'll
keep listening to the podcast and keep watching on NBC,
and I'll be envious of whatever length of time you

(41:09):
can run, even if it's not enough for you. I'll
be over here just like dreaming of a couple miles.

Speaker 5 (41:14):
So thank you so much.

Speaker 1 (41:19):
Thanks so much to Kara for joining us. We have
to take another break when we come back. We take
two laps around the track without collapsing, and who doesn't
love Burner Boy, Welcome back slices. It's time for another

(41:39):
edition of What the Fact, inspired by my conversation with
Kara Okay.

Speaker 3 (41:44):
So.

Speaker 1 (41:45):
During Kara's Olympic career, she had the opportunity to compete
in three different Olympic races, the five thousand and ten
thousand meter events in two thousand and eight and the
marathon in twenty twelve. But it wasn't that long ago
that women weren't allowed to run that far at the Olympics.
So let's take it back to nineteen twenty eight and
the Amsterdam Olympics. Now, those games marked the first time
that women were allowed to compete in track and field

(42:06):
at the Olympics, and they had just five events to
choose from the one hundred meter, eight hundred meter four
by one hundred meter relay, high jump, and discus throw.
But the real drama was in that eight hundred meters.
So after the race, which is two laps of the
track about a half a mile, a few of the
women looked like a lot of athletes do after a long,

(42:26):
fast run, pretty damn tired. A couple competitors even collapsed
in exhaustion on the track. And for the men watching
from the stands and in the press box, it was
just too much to bear. Quote Below us on the
cinder path were eleven wretched women, five of whom dropped
out before the finish, while five collapsed after reaching the

(42:47):
tape breathlessly, wrote one reporter for The New York Evening Post.
Other members of the media lamented that the women's reproductive
systems were at risk. Now none of that was true,
of course, mister New York Evening Post even got a
few details wrong in the story, as there were nine
women in the final, not eleven, and all of them
crossed the finish line, with several competitors bettering the previous

(43:09):
world record. Of course, those facts didn't keep Track and
Fields governing body from voting to remove the eight hundred
meters from future Olympic programs, and so for the next
three decades, the longest distance women were allowed to run
at the Olympics was two hundred meters, just to half
a lap of the track. It wasn't until nineteen sixty
that the women's eight hundred meter returned to the Olympics. Now,

(43:30):
when this happened, men, of course, were still not always
fully supportive. In fact, during the women's eight hundred meter
in nineteen sixty eight, won by American Madeline Manning. Commentary
included quote eight hundred meters for the women is a
long way to go, isn't it?

Speaker 3 (43:43):
Jim?

Speaker 1 (43:44):
Yes it is Jim, and yes they were both named Jim.
Over the next few decades, more women's distance events were
slowly added. The women's marathon was added in nineteen eighty four,
eighty eight years after the men's event debuted at the Olympics,
and the women's ten thousand meters was added in nineteen
eighty eight, while the five thousand meter was finally added
in nineteen ninety six. These days, the men's and women's

(44:07):
events in track and field are identical, with the one
exception of the multi men compete in the ten event
to kathlon where women have the seven event heptathlon. But
that's a conversation for another day. This what the fact
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(44:27):
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We love that your listen in y'all, but we want
you to get in the game every day too, So
here's our good game play of the day now. I
don't know if you slices saw the Euro Final postgame celebration,

(45:08):
but it had everything. It had the double decker buses
and the big stage to celebrate the players. But the
best part by far was that the England Lioness's coach,
Serena Veegman, absolutely lost it when her favorite artist burna
Boy walked on stage to sing next to her and
she knew all the damn words. If you haven't seen
the footage, we'll link to it in our show notes

(45:29):
because it's so good. So we want to hear from
you slices which artists popping up on stage next to
you would get you hyped like Serena Viegman, and you
know you'd be able to sing along with all the words.
For me, there are just too many right answers. I
would lose my shit over a number of people. But
I'm going to go with the guy that gets me
squealing like a teenager ever since I was a teenager,

(45:53):
Dave Matthews. Listen. You can hate on it if you want,
and I know some of you are, but that man
is a lifetime hall passing my book, his songwriting, his voice,
his little goofy dances. Swoon. Now. I have personally witnessed
women standing near me at a Dave Matthews show go
from asking if he's on drugs or potentially recently had

(46:13):
a stroke to very soon after loudly proclaiming that they'd
hit it, lust works and mysterious ways y'all lover lay down. Indeed,
Alex Mesh, who you got just one?

Speaker 3 (46:26):
Sarah? You didn't even mention my favorite fact about Dave Matthews,
which is that he had the best ever been in
Jerry's flavor best every.

Speaker 1 (46:35):
It does not inspire lust. But it is a true fact.

Speaker 3 (46:39):
I think I would probably pick The Killers, just specifically
mister Brightside on repeat all day long.

Speaker 1 (46:45):
Oh. Also, Brandon Flowers can get it. I don't know
if you're aware.

Speaker 4 (46:48):
I'm not aware.

Speaker 1 (46:49):
I remember that at one point I was at home
and I flipped on this show that was like dives
deeply into one individual song per episode, and I had
really enjoyed The Killers but had never really looked at
them before, and Brandon Flowers popped up on the screen
and I was like damn. And I went to text
all my friends about it. But it was like one
thirty in the morning because I had just gotten home
pretty hammered and I was trying to eat some mac
and cheese when I realized, Brandon Flowers can get it anyway.

(47:13):
Me sure you got.

Speaker 2 (47:17):
Oh the journeys you both take me on a daily basis.

Speaker 4 (47:21):
Erica Badu's gotta get more.

Speaker 2 (47:22):
Oh definitely, Erica bad I'm coming up on stage with
my little incense and a little little.

Speaker 4 (47:28):
Circle and do them a little.

Speaker 3 (47:30):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (47:30):
Me and Erica would get.

Speaker 1 (47:31):
Down for sure. Okay, are you prepared for Erica to
be two hours late to surprise you on stage? Yes,
that's fine because that's how it usually goes with her.
That's fine. She might not even show up at all.

Speaker 4 (47:43):
Wait, you'll be there.

Speaker 1 (47:44):
You need to do You'll be there waiting.

Speaker 4 (47:46):
I'll be here.

Speaker 1 (47:49):
Let us know, slices, we always love to hear from you,
So hit us up on email good game at wondermedianetwork
dot com or leave us a voicemail at eight seven
two two four fifty seventy and don't forget to subscribe
a rate And it's real easy watch throwing a dildo
on the court in the middle of a basketball game
rating ten out of ten inches review. Someone threw a

(48:09):
dildo on the court during the fourth quarter of the
Atlanta Dream versus Golden State Valkyries game, and none of
us will ever be the same. Now, I want to
be clear, throwing stuff onto the court is bad. Don't
do it. But if you're gonna do it, and you
gotta throw something, a neon green dildo as funny as

(48:30):
I mean, what was the thought process pregame for that person?
Was it a dare? Did they lose a bet? Did
they forget it was in their bag and need to
get rid of it because they were on a date
or something. And speaking of your bag, I can barely
get a phone and a lip gloss in those tiny
little things that they allow in stadiums these days. Did
you walk through security with a giant Neon green dildo

(48:51):
in a clear bag? I need to know. But again,
this is very unsafe and definitely don't do that. But
also next time, double sided. Now it's your turn, rate
and review. Thanks for listening, See you tomorrow. Good game, Kara,
Good Game, the Comeback Kids, Cam and Allie. You those

(49:12):
skinny little wooden trays that they make you shove your
person to its stadiums to make sure they're small enough,
y'all be scratching up my gucci because you can't just
eyeball it. Damn. Good Game with Sarah Spain is an
iHeart women's sports production in partnership with Deep Blue Sports
and Entertainment. You can find us on the iHeartRadio app,

(49:33):
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Production by
Wonder Media Network, our producers are Alex Azzie and Misha Jones.
Our executive producers are Christina Everett, Jesse Katz, Jenny Kaplan,
and Emily Rudder. Our editors are Emily Rutter, Britney Martinez,
Grace Lynch, and Gianna Palmer. Our associate producer is Lucy Jones.

(49:53):
Production assistance from Avery LOFTUS and I'm Your Host Sarah
Spain

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