Getting Uncomfortable with Cari Champion

Sports broadcaster Cari Champion joins Sarah to discuss her new podcast series, “The Making of a Rivalry: Caitlin Clark vs Angel Reese,” why there are so few good faith conversations about the two standout rookies and how the WNBA will react to an increase in misogynoir. Plus, an update on Jordan Chiles’ bronze medal saga, prepping for a 15th WNBA team, and a reminder to do your civic duty.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Good Game with Sarah Spain, where we love
us some Sid Colson, but we would never willingly be
passengers on her plane. It's definitely not you said, it's
us sure. On today's show, we'll be kicking it with
broadcaster Carrie Champion and unpacking what she learned while hosting
her new podcast series The Making of a Rivalry Caitlin
Clark Versus Angel Reese. Plus an update on the Jordan

(00:21):
Childs bronze medal saga, more cryptic WNBA tweets, and an
ode to a coold Weather essential. It's all coming up
right after this Welcome back. Here's what you need to

(00:41):
know today. On Monday, Team USA Olympic gymnast Jordan Childs
submitted an appeal to the Swiss Federal Supreme Court over
the Court of Arbitration for Sport or CAS's decision that
resulted in her being stripped of her individual bronze medal
in the floor exercise. Now to jog your memory on
this whole saga, Jordan originally finished fifth in the floor
exercise final at the Paris Olympics, but her score increased

(01:03):
by a tenth of a point after her coach submitted
an inquiry, asserting that the judges didn't credit her for
one of her skills. That boost ended up pushing Childs
past to Romanian gymnasts and onto the podium for bronze,
setting up that epic photo that we all remember with
her in Smoane Biles and Rebecca Andrage. So five days later,
after Romanian officials file to complete with CIS, they announced
that the inquiry on Child's behalf was submitted four seconds

(01:25):
past the one minute deadline. CIS called for the results
of the competition to be reversed, and the International Olympic
Committee stripped Chiles of her bronze medal. USA Gymnastics attempted
to appeal that CIS decision on Chiles's behalf, claiming that
the organization had video evidence showing that her coach's inquiry
was submitted in forty seven seconds, well within the deadline.
CIS declined the appeal on the basis of rules that

(01:48):
quote do not allow for an arbitral award to be
reconsidered even when conclusive new evidence is presented end quote.
Chiles new appeal this week claims that the CIS's decision
ignored her quote right to be heard and She cites
a conflict of interest by the president of the CIS
arbitration panel due to his previous work for You Guessed
at Romania. It also includes details about how CIS initially

(02:11):
used the wrong email addresses to try to get in
touch with representatives of USA Gymnastics and the US Olympic
and Paralympic Committee. While the appeal to the Swiss Tribunal
was submitted under Jordan's name by her attorneys, it was
done with the support of both USA Gymnastics and the USOPC.
In a statement, USA Gymnastics said quote USAG is closely
coordinating with Jordan and her legal team and will make

(02:32):
supportive filings with the court in the continued pursuit of
justice for Jordan end quote. As part of her appeal,
Jordan's team submitted video footage from the documentary crew that
was taping teammates Simone Biles during the Olympics. In the footage,
Child's coach to Seal Landy, can be heard telling an
official that she wanted to submit an appeal within the
one minute deadline now because the Swiss Federal Tribunal only

(02:52):
hears appeals if they meet certain limited restrictions. For example,
if CIS procedures weren't followed, it was crucial for Jordan's
legal team to cite problems with the process and not
just a decision itself. As you can see, this story
is ongoing. We'll keep you updated. Two women's college hoops
some unsettling news. An Oregon man, Robert Cole Parmally was

(03:13):
charged Monday for stalking and harassing Yukon women's basketball star
page Beckers. He was arrested on Friday by Yukon police,
who said they were made aware of him way back
in June after he sent the school's communications department a
number of emails claiming that he was a member of
the royal family and wanted to marry a member of
the women's basketball team. He was also arrested on August
twenty seventh by Connecticut State Police while walking along a

(03:35):
highway near Bradley International Airport in Connecticut. He told police
he was on his way to Seebeckers. Prior to that arrest,
Parmeally posted to social media that he was going to
propose to Becker's and get her expelled. Parmey has been
charged with breach of peace, electronic stocking, and harassment and
he's being held on a one hundred thousand dollars bond.
That's a whole lot to deal with while also just
getting ready to get back to school in basketball. So

(03:57):
we're sending Paige good vibes to pro hoops. In WNBA news,
the league's social media account is following the Phoenix Mercury's lead,
dropping cryptic posts to keep folks guessing they aren't about
Diana Trossi's potential retirement, though yesterday the WNBA tweeted quote,
you know what's better than fourteen teams with a smirk emoji.
Now this feels like an obvious hint at expansion beyond

(04:19):
just the Golden State Valkyries and the WNBA Toronto franchises
that are coming into action starting in twenty twenty five
and twenty twenty six, respectively, and all signs point to
Portland and the Bethal family. That name sounds familiar. Raj
Bethal is the principal co owner of the Sacramento Kings
of the MNBA. Son Alex is co owner and executive
director of Sacramento Basketball Holdings, which owns the Kings, and

(04:40):
in twenty twenty four, the family acquired the controlling interest
in the Portland Thorns of the NWSL. Alex and his
sister Lisa now managed data day operations for the Thorns.
Reporter Sean Heiken broke the news of the Bethal's landing
a Portland expansion team a couple of weeks ago on
the Rose Garden Report, and he's now reporting that an
official announcement will come today. Also in more WNBA, shout
out to photographer for bree Lawerki, who posted a series

(05:01):
of photos on Instagram of the notoriously hot headed Caitlin
Clark being wrangled by her teammates working at Calmer Down
keep her away from officials. Pre wrote quote c C
de Escalation Committee is one of my favorite things to capture.
Eliah Boston responded, we work overtime, and Clark herself wrote
Brah with a punch of laughing emojis, you could check
out breeze work at Brie Laworki photo. As for Tuesday's

(05:25):
WNBA games, we recorded before a few of them wrapped,
so go check out the results and you can keep
up with that race for the eighth and final playoff spot.
In college volleyball, the top five teams are all in action. Tonight,
We've got an in state showdown between number one Pit
and number three Penn State. Number two Stanford squares off
with number five Nebraska, and number four Louisville plays number
eleven Kentucky. We already told you about a few upsets

(05:45):
early in this season, so worth keeping your eyes peeled
for potential fireworks tonight. We got to pay some bills
when we come back. We'll get comfortable being uncomfortable with
Kerrie Champion joining us now. She's a CNN contributor, the
host of the podcast Naked with Carrie Champion and the

(06:06):
new podcast series The Making of a Rivalry Kaitlyn Clark
versus Angel Reese. She's a proud UCLA alum, the founder
of the Brown Girls Dream Foundation, and she was my
emotional support animal and can it's Carrie Champion.

Speaker 2 (06:19):
Legit, you were mine as well. Legit, I was.

Speaker 1 (06:23):
Going to carry like, I don't know where what am
I supposed to wear? How am I supposed to act?
In these places? Who are all these people? You were
calming me down, giving me hype talks, which I appreciated.
You deserve, you deserve. I'm excited about this new podcast.
So episode two just dropped on Monday. This is a
juicy topic. What made you want to explore it in
a podcast series?

Speaker 2 (06:43):
The same things I think most journalists have felt, especially
if you're a woman. You felt like you could not
have this conversation about either one of these ladies, Angel
Reese or Caitlin Clark without feeling marginalized pro Caitlin anti Caitlin,
pro Angel anti Angel. And I felt, is it if
there were so much sensitivity around women and how women compete?

(07:03):
It really bothered me because, as you know, like I know,
being a woman with a strong personality, comfortable and confident
in a lot of ways makes people uncomfortable. But that's
just because society has said we are supposed to behave
a certain way. And so when I watch these women
compete against one another and I noticed how people wanted
them to behave, I thought to myself, well, this is

(07:23):
so unfair. This is not even this is not even
a real conversation. We're having clutches my pearls, Like what
is this this is about? And so I just wanted
to explore all the intersections it meta and met at gender,
and met at race and met at how women consume sports.
It's political, it's cultural, it is sports, It is all
of these things, and I wanted to show how sports

(07:45):
is truly, in my opinion, a microcosm of a larger
issue that we have in society.

Speaker 1 (07:51):
Yeah, we're going to get into a lot of those intersections.
It's interesting. At the top of the first episode, one
of the things you mentioned, which I've almost forgotten as
we talk about so many other things around this rivalry,
which is the simple idea of like women playing sports
and competing. And we've had this conversation for the entirety
of my lifetime, from being a kid and like how
can you be lady like and also want to win

(08:12):
to professional sports. But it feels like with these two,
because the conversation got so big and so loud, we
were maybe able to finally get through to more people
about the idea that if you're playing sports the goal
is to win. If the goal is to win, then
that comes ahead of what your hair looks like, whether
you look friendly, whether you're being nice, whether you're you know,
being a good sport like that simple idea. The fact

(08:36):
that we still are having to get that through to people,
I think is the baseline for this whole conversation, right, Like,
if we're still there, how can we expect ourselves to
get to all of the other more nuanced stuff. But
that's what you're trying to get to. And you spoke
to a whole bunch of people for the series. Can
you tell me about some of the people you decided
to call in to talk about Caitlin versus Angel.

Speaker 2 (08:57):
Obviously, I called in Sarah spain Day. Yeah, she is
a cligger expert on this topic. But I tried to
really honestly, I wanted to talk to people outside of
and I gotta be really honest with you, outside of
talking to Caitlyn and Angel. I knew they would give
me the correct response, and I wanted someone to talk
to me about what they really felt. And so I

(09:18):
went to a lot of friends and colleagues, and I
also went to what I call a culture expert, this
guy by the name of keV on stage. He's a comedian,
but he really truly is a die hard fan of
women's basketball because he has a women in his household.
He's married to a woman, a black woman more specifically,
and he, to me is one of these voices that really, really,

(09:40):
really is a part of the conversation on Twitter or
x or whatever you'd like to call it whenever they're
having these battles. And I remember him tweeting and talking
about things during this during the initial rivalry, if you will,
when Caitlyn and Angel were in college, and he said
some really smart things and he was very honest. So
I wanted to find people who would be very honest
I would want. I wanted to find people in the

(10:01):
media and see their perspective and how they thought they
were covering the story or how they viewed the story.
And then, last but not least, I wanted to hear
from And we've been able to catch up with Angel
when she was playing before she got injured. We talked
to her, and of course she said the right things.
I understand that, But I really wanted to talk to
people from various backgrounds black, white, male, female, and I

(10:23):
wanted to see their perspective and just as I assumes,
and I'm gonna be honest except for Sarah and Ryan,
and that's Ryan Ruco because he caught the big game,
the big lsu Iowa game, and yourself. I think everyone
has really told this story through their filter. If you're black,
you're gonna tell it to a black filter. If you're white,
normally you'll tell it to it through a white filter.

(10:45):
And it's really interesting how we see things very differently
based on how we are raised and how we've been
approached in society.

Speaker 1 (10:52):
Yeah, you said the right things that. Well, did you
talk to Caitlin or did you end up only getting
a chance to talk to Angel?

Speaker 2 (10:57):
I only talk to Angel. Caitlin is still we're still
hoping that we can get her. We still have four
more episodes and we're pressing it. And I ask you
is out today? The ask is out of the knocking
on the doors is out. Yeah. And we talked to
we talked to We talked to some of her teammates
from college, to Kate Martin, you know, those people who
know her in a way in which I thought was interesting.

Speaker 1 (11:17):
People from the college game. Yeah. I just asked that
because it's interesting. You said you knew that they both
Caitlyn and Angel, and specifically when talking to Angel, that
it came true that they would say the right thing.
So that's one of the interesting parts about this conversation
is it can be difficult to dive in and say
either the true thing or the thing you're thinking for

(11:38):
fear that it isn't the right thing. So what is
the right thing? And why are they saying it? And
what do you think they're not saying that you'd rather hear.

Speaker 2 (11:45):
I think they're saying it's not a rivalry because they
don't think that it should be perceived as a rivalry,
because that sounds negative, and that sounds like they don't
like each other. And I and I feel that they
should really look at that word and understand what it means.
It doesn't mean that you have to play the same position.
It doesn't mean that you guys have to go head

(12:06):
to head every night. What it means is that you
two people live on two or before you even started
to play one another, you've lived on two different spectrums
of the universe. You've come together, and the story of
you two playing in college now in the WNBA has
become a story of interest, and people have put verses
in between you all, whether it be the media, whether

(12:27):
it be you all yourselves. But I know that you
understand how important your role is to the women's game,
and I know you both understand that people are watching
what you do every single night when you play, and
I know you both understand there are people in camps
rooting against and four and so it's not necessarily a
bad thing. We need that inertia. We need that tension,
as we've talked about in this podcast series, to give

(12:50):
us a great storyline. And I hate to say it,
but that's what we have with these two young ladies.
And they're like, well, we're not rivals. I'd be hard
pressed to believe that they aren't paying attention to what
they both are doing. I know Angel is looking at
Caitlin's stats, and I know Caitlyn is looking at angel
stats because you wouldn't be a competitor. You are taking
away the idea of who you are at your core

(13:11):
by saying you're not interested in what the other person
is doing and you don't care about that. Yes you do,
you do. It's just who you are. And if you
don't want to say it, that's fine, but I'll say
it for you. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (13:21):
I think it's both the way that this quote unquote
rivalry or I guess I shouldnt say quote unquote it's
a rivalry. We've put the verses between them. We're going
to hold them up there inextricably linked, whether they agree
to it or not, whether they want to. The way
this yeah, I think the way this rivalry has been
covered and what it has unlocked for so many different
fan bases and groups, including some truly unhinged behavior that

(13:42):
is racist, that is misogynist, that is homophobic, that is sexist,
all the things. I think that that makes it easy
to want to shy away from it because with it
comes so much bad stuff. Sure, and in women's sports especially,
there is a lot less of people flat out saying
we don't like them. That's our rival, whether it's a

(14:02):
team or a player. We see it all the time
in men's sports, and I think that comes back to
what we started with off the top of the show,
this expectation for women and the idea that you would
blatantly say out loud, I want to win, I want
to beat them, I don't like them, and that's okay.
Is a step too far for some people in society, right,
which is so frustrating.

Speaker 2 (14:22):
And even the more frustrating part about it is the
women can't say that because they don't want the men
who've never watched the game to say they're jealous. They
don't want the men who could care less about the
game to call them caddy, and in fact, it's okay
to say all of these things because we're not holding
Draymond Green accountable for certain things that he said and done.
We're not holding you know, Lebron James accountable for being

(14:44):
competitive towards other people like Kobe didn't like anybody, and
it was okay. And I don't understand we.

Speaker 1 (14:50):
Turned that into the Mamba mentality. We made that a
thing that everyone should aspire to. And when women, they're caddy,
they're bitchy, they're jealous.

Speaker 2 (14:59):
And all I guess what, so are men. And let's
just all of that applies to men, and then let's
just embrace the fact that a competition isn't a bad
thing selfish. Being selfish gets a bad rap too, And
I just I really hate how we don't allow women
to compete as athletes. And what I am finding throughout
this entire docu series is that that is probably more

(15:23):
of the big surprise to me than even the race
element and even the darling that Caitlin has become and
the villain that Angel has decided that she would embrace
the fact that women don't even allow women to compete,
and one of our Kevi on stage said this, He goes,
women are supposed to play with dolls. You're supposed to

(15:44):
play with dolls. The boys are supposed to rough house.
He was like, that's how they've been raised. He was like,
and so when we're watching these women compete like athletes,
not necessarily like men, but just like athletes, it's uncomfortable
for us to see that. And I thought to myself, well,
we are here, it is twenty two. Where are we
in the women's rights movement?

Speaker 1 (16:02):
Yeah, fifty plus years plast title nine, when you all
grew up with women playing Everyone who's been born in
the last fifty years has grown up with women having
the right in the opportunity. So it's it's disturbing and
sad that we're still having to explain things to people.
But to your point, what's been really frustrating as this
rivalry has taken shape has been the voices that have
gotten the spotlight, how willing they are to say things

(16:26):
so out of pocket, Like the ones that stood out
the most to me weren't even the talking heads that
I'm used to trying to get clicks and say things
that are sillacious. It was a former NBA player saying
that the rest of the WNBA should let Caitlin win
early on when she was struggling because it'd be good
for the league. And I'm like, oh my god, you
have completely divorced these women from the idea of sports

(16:49):
at all. If you believe that that's going to take place,
and the disrespect for the league and for their lifetime
of work that you think that that's the answer is
they shouldn't try. Like, what has surprised you the most
about That was the most surprising to me was athletes
saying shit like that.

Speaker 2 (17:03):
Well, it was people who now claim that they're fans
of the w NBA weighing in like a Charles Barkley
saying that you know, they got this wrong. The w
NBA messed this up. Y'all should be grateful to Caitlin,
or we have the or we'll have other people who
are watching the game and explaining what the women are
doing wrong and how it's not fair and they're just
jumping on her. And I was just like, listen, I

(17:24):
find it really hard to believe that when Lebron was
a rookie, you guys were going easy on him. I
find it really hard to believe that you thought it
was wrong for Kobe to shit talk you and in
any capacity and talk about and by the way, the
the the trash talk isn't even on the level of
what the men do. Like, it's not they're not talking

(17:45):
about sleeping with somebody's wife. They're not we know that happens.
They're not talking about you know, someone's mom. They're like,
I'm about to I'm about to score here and I'm
about to take you here, and you ain't all that,
and I'm okay, it's okay for me to say that,
I'm surprised that I went on air with Bob. And
this was earlier in the season, right after Angel Reese
was thrown to the ground, and people were like, oh

(18:07):
my gosh, who cares? And then when Caitlin Clark, you know,
got that heart filed by Carter Kenedya Carter Rooone was like,
what's what's going on? And I said the same exact
thing Bob Costa said, but when he said it, and rightfully,
he's Bob Costas, but when he said it, it was like,
oh my god, He's right. No one cares about the
black girls, but they do care about Ande Reese. And

(18:27):
I'm like, well, we've been we the women, Yeah, Caaitlyn Clark,
and he's like, no one cares about Angel Reese. They
only care about Kaitlyn Clark because it's it's it's it's
white on black crime, not black on black crime. In
shut right, I'm paraphrasing, and he went, I roll for that,
and I'm like, in my mind, I'm all like, okay,
what else is new? Like welcome.

Speaker 3 (18:48):
And welcome to life, Welcome to life and I And
it was just it was disappointing to me that we
can scream it from the rooftops, but it only it
only counts when someone our male counterpart, is saying it.

Speaker 2 (18:59):
And that's the same for how we are covering the
women's game. No one cares about the women who have
been covering the game and who were talking about the game.
But if the men start man explaining the game, it
becomes so much more important and it becomes so much
more valuable.

Speaker 1 (19:13):
Carry you remember that PSA I did more than me.
And one of the first things that we noticed when
it instantly went viral and millions of people were talking
about it, was that the two women didn't say anything.
They just sat there quietly and stoically taking it, and
the men were emotional, the men that were reading these
awful tweets to us, and that we're reading these things
that men had sent us that were on the verge
of tears. That was why people cared, because they don't

(19:35):
really care if women tell you how bad things are.
But if men get sad and emotional about it and
acknowledge it, then all of a sudden, let's make sure
we're talking about it, which is very much what we've
seen this year. The men have decided to join. And
this isn't all men. There have been some great men
covering the league forever, and there are some great men
who are talking about it in a way that reflects
the nuance that we've all known about this league for
many years. But yeah, that's been part of the problem.

(19:57):
And part of the problem also is I think the
league did not figure out in advance if they wanted
to do something about this, prepare for this. They could
see the ball rolling down the hill, and they didn't
get in front of it. Kathy Engelbert sent a letter
to WNBA players acknowledging that she missed the market or
interview on CNBC. You posted on Social about that interview quote,
the commissioner answered, like every employer I've worked for, avoiding

(20:18):
or perhaps invalidating the feelings of many in the league
she has been charged with governing. Tell me more.

Speaker 2 (20:24):
I think that every place that I have worked for,
in any in any in any capacity. And I'm not
just referring to most people know me from ESPN, but
I've worked in many other jobs, you know, even when
I was in college. And if my boss does not
look like me and I and I raise an issue,
i e. If my boss is white and I raise
the issue about racism, or if I feel marginalized, or

(20:44):
if I feel left out, they are uncomfortable, they ignore it.
Kathy Engelbert's response on CNBC was, you know, I was
told a long time ago that you should just ignore
the people, if you wouldn't take advice from them, and
just ignore them. I'm like, what, what, what did you
just say? What the hell did you just say? And
it's so disrespectful. But it's more than disrespectful, it's painful.

(21:06):
It's painful because as a black woman, I get tired
of being called a villain. I get tired of being
told what I'm not. I get tired of expressing myself
and feeling like I can't bring my whole self to
work because I will then be perceived as too much
or I am doing too much. And I've struggled with this,
and I'm gonna be honest with you, Sarah. I've struggled
with this because I had this problem with she Carrie Richardson.

(21:27):
I had when Angel would would have an attitude on
the court, I'd be like, why you're representing all of us?
Why are you doing that? But you know what I decided,
I said, this generation does not give a fly in
about what other people say about them. They are bringing
their full selves and they should be unapologetic about who
they are and what makes them who they are. We

(21:49):
as a society can't let one moment define who we
think these people are. So what if you didn't like
what Angel Rehys did to Caitlin Clark, That's not who
she is. She shouldn't be a thug, she shouldn't be
villainized for that one moment. Let me tell you about
the one mini moments I've had that I'd be ashamed
of if somebody held me to that standard. And what
Kathy Engelbert did was exactly what white people do. No

(22:10):
offense is ignore the issue. This is why in this
country we cannot talk about race. This is why in
this country we are often told when we bring it up,
it's uncomfortable. I talked to Coach Blueter, which is Caitlin
Clark's coach, and Coach Bluter was very honest and she
was like, you know, I just wish and she had
a hard time talking about race, and she said, I

(22:31):
just wish she just didn't have to get too ugly.
I wish people didn't have to bring race into it.
And she was like, and then.

Speaker 1 (22:37):
They existing, Yes, that's when race comes into it. When
someone exists of any race that's different than another race,
that's race. Now, race is in it.

Speaker 2 (22:48):
Now here's the thing that is a privilege and a
luxury that the marginalized do not have. And you know
that as a woman, you walk into a room, you
can't hide the fact that you're a woman, and you
know they're going to judge you for that walk into
the room as a black person you are do people
immediately have ideas about who you are and where you
come from. And so I was so disgusted with this

(23:08):
response from Kathy Engelbert on this stage where the majority
of your players are and or is is ism exists,
whether it be the sexism issue, whether it be the
racism issue, and ism exists, and you're so out of
touch that you talk about while rivalry is good for
the game, yes, yes, and but what about this race issue.
It really made me frustrated because I'm like, here we
go get another corporate response.

Speaker 1 (23:29):
Right, Well, it wasn't just ignoring it either. It was
actually spinning it into a positive correct Like, it wasn't
just I don't want to talk about races, like how
great is this for our league? And it's like, wait
a minute, we can have both things. We can talk
about how having a foil and having a rival is great,
and we do like to have a take on things.
This allows us to have a take. And also, my

(23:49):
players should not be going through these levels of character assassination, racism, homophobia,
all the stuff. And she didn't do that. And to
your point, that is a privilege point of view, to
be able to ignore the lived experiences of people who
are different than you in favor of talking about the
things that you think are a positive spin. And I
think that when we look at how culpable league leadership

(24:11):
is in terms of how far the unhinged fans and
even some media have been able to go around this rivalry.
You know, we know that social media is awful, we
know that people are going to be awful, but this
feels like more than that. It feels like it got
out of control and there was no one trying to
reel it in right.

Speaker 2 (24:28):
Well, because you have someone at the helm of this
of the WNBA who cannot even relate to what it
feels like to be marginalized. And if she doesn't want
to right or doesn't want to, and if she does
know it exists, she doesn't know how to talk about it.
So I talked to Kristin Meyer, which is Caitlin Clark's
high school coach, and she goes, you know, I know
that they've been asking Caitlin about this, and I think

(24:49):
if I were Caitlin, I wouldn't know what to say.
I don't know how to talk about race. I wouldn't
know what to say. I know that I've been thinking
about having someone come in and talk to my students,
but this is a most white school. So here she
is at this white school, and that's all she's had
all of her life, and then you put her in
this world and you say answer questions about race, can you?
And she's like, well, what, well, what I'm uncomfortable And

(25:11):
Ryan Rukle said this best he goes they're afraid of
saying something wrong, which is why they ignore it. And
this is here's the answer, guys, here's okay. Spoiler alert.
If you talk about uncomfortable things, they become more comfortable.
And so I understand why, Yes, you don't want to
talk about race, especially if you're not educated in that area,
but you're going to have to do some homework. Too
much is given much as required.

Speaker 1 (25:30):
That's what I was gonna say.

Speaker 2 (25:31):
That's a choice.

Speaker 1 (25:32):
That's a choice.

Speaker 2 (25:33):
Too much as given, much is required.

Speaker 1 (25:35):
Caitlin Clark will only for so long be able to
fall back on. I'm focused on basketball were I'm a
twenty two year old with a million things that have
just been put on my shoulders, and I am not
yet comfortable or capable of talking about these things in
a way that isn't incredibly stressful. I remember writing Thompson's
story about her. She spoke to Jeremy Shapp about whether
angels should be allowed to do the you can't see me,

(25:58):
and she said all the right things, and then after
she was shaking and almost crying because she was so
worried about saying the wrong thing. Understandable, and you only
get to say that for so long. Now that you
know that this is required of you, Now that you
know you're in a league that has predominantly women of color,
that has plenty of women that are queer, that has
all these isms, it is now on you to choose

(26:20):
to educate yourself in a way so that you can
speak on it comfortably.

Speaker 2 (26:25):
You have no choice. And I know you may not
want that, but let me tell you something as a body.

Speaker 1 (26:28):
But she should want to choose that too, again, because
when you understand your own privilege, then you want to
be able to speak to that stuff in a way
that makes everybody around you feel like you care about
what they're going through.

Speaker 2 (26:38):
You are a rare breed. And this is why I
say to you, it's so funny. You don't even know
this conversation. I was talking to Kelly Carter and I
was like, she's a true ally, whether she wants to
be or not. And I think that's genuinely who she is,
and she just believes in what is right and what
is wrong. And she has a very strong point of view.
And you're very intelligent people who say it took you
a while to find your voice. It took me a

(26:59):
while to find my voice. It's going to take her
a minute to find her voice. Then she will want.
Same with Lebron. They were coming to Lebron and asking
him what he thought about Trayvon Martin. He really didn't
have an answer, and he said, guess what, I should
figure this out. So I'm going to give her the
grace to figure it out. I'm going to give her
some time because I never figured it out. It took
a while for him to figure it out.

Speaker 1 (27:18):
And some say Michael Jordan still hasn't that Listen, I'm
obsessed with Michael Jordan.

Speaker 2 (27:22):
And he will say great things that any more talks
about because he's not comfortable.

Speaker 1 (27:26):
Right. There's a lot of publicity that doesn't get given
to the things that he does. That's good, but he
doesn't feel comfortable talking about stuff, and he doesn't and
he's in his sixties, so maybe she won't figure it out.
I am like you, though, I am giving her the
grace to get some time, she figure out how she
wants to respond it, to feel comfortable responding on us.
But what happens is when you have leadership that doesn't

(27:49):
get out in front of it and isn't intentional in
the way that these things happen and unfurl over the
course of a season, you get what's happening right now.
And I think Kathy is very much feeling the effects
of not having figured that out earlier.

Speaker 2 (28:00):
And by the way, how long have you been in
charge of the league. By the way, how long have
you been governing women? And that's when you talk and
you've had I know, you know many WNBA players, like
I do, they're not a fan of Kathy Engelbert, And
all this did was solidify how they felt about her
and how they felt about the w And they need
to figure this out quick.

Speaker 1 (28:16):
And I am so sick of women being in the
uncomfortable position of saying, okay, but this is good for business,
or this person knows how to make us money and
not being able to find the people that can do both,
or maybe not looking fair. But I don't know that
that's always the case. I like, listen, in my experience
with the NWSL. It was incredibly frustrating to find that

(28:37):
all the people with the money were the ones that
did not know what they were doing when it came
to ensuring player safety and experience and joy. And then
you're looking around for people who do get that, and
sometimes the reason that they have that empathy and understanding
is because they're not billionaires. Because guess what, some people
who want to be billionaires are not the same people
who want to lead others and be empathetic and understand.

(28:58):
And I'm getting on a tangent here, but I do
think what I'm discovering as I get older, in particular,
is very often the people in charge and who want
to be in charge are not always the same people
that want that interaction with the players that understand them.
Those people take other positions the top top top are
about business, they're about finance, they're about catsline, they're about

(29:19):
and listen. I want that person to also be able
to understand and lead right away. That's good for the players.
And it feels like in women's sports particularly, that's where
there's so much conflict.

Speaker 2 (29:29):
Yeah, they don't do it. I'm okay with I'm okay
with this. I'm okay with you being in charges of
money and making and making the money. But I also
am not okay with when you are aware that there's
a problem, you don't fix it, you don't bring someone
in because that's also good business. That's also good business.

Speaker 1 (29:44):
At least Yeah, know that that's not your wheelhouse and
have people in place correct, educate yourself to speak on
it in those instances like that show, and then behind
the scenes, have people that you know are on top
of that so that you can be doing the business.
This interesting is something we've talked about. Like we both
worked at ESPN. President was really anyway.

Speaker 2 (30:01):
I was trying not to go there. I had so
many That's so true.

Speaker 1 (30:04):
The previous president was really into content and very much
involved himself in content and talent issues. The current president
is really into business and has other people handle content
and talent. They both work in different ways, but you
have to know that about yourself. And I guess we're
going to all start doing a little more digging to
understand where the very highest levels of the WNBA in
that office, in addition to Kathy, have enough of the

(30:25):
people that understand what the players are dealing with and
are having intentional collaborative plans moving forward, to deal with massage, shore,
to deal with homophontes, to deal with all of it,
to deal with all of it. Do you think that's
going to happen, because to me, it feels like this
is the league that we've seen collective player energy. So
will it just end up being the players doing that?

Speaker 2 (30:42):
Yeah? No, I don't think the women. First of all,
women by nature are usually natural leaders. We've always seen
how the women in the WNBA, especially because they are
a group of marginalized women, have led at the forefront.
I don't think Kathy has it in her to do that.
I hate to say that, I just feel like she's
off the mark. I think this letter she wrote to
play and individually meeting with players sounds like she's just

(31:02):
trying to put a ball on it and look good.
I don't think she really cares. I think she's there
to make money. I think that when they're looking for
an empathetic leader, they'll hand the keys over to someone
who has an understanding. But she is not the person
to do that. And it's so painfully clear. Stevie Wonder
can see it. She does not care about these players,
and I know she doesn't because it feels more about

(31:23):
what she was able to do. She wants to put
her name on growing in the league. She wants to
associate herself with this rivalry there. To me, doesn't feel
like there's any empathy in her about what is really
truly the problem. And I'm not speaking out of turn.
I'm speaking for women who lead this league who tell
me that in private conversations that they've had with her.
I understand that that is her job to make money,

(31:44):
but she has missed the mark on the humanity side
of this, which is what these women really truly want
as well. They want to be seen as individuals. They
don't want to be seen as the lesbian or the black,
or the this or the that. I am a human being. First,
do you see my humanity? If you can't, Sarah, see
me as your sister, your mother, your cousin. If you

(32:04):
don't feel that way for me, then you can't understand
my plight. And I don't think that she has that.
I could be wrong. I doubt if I'm wrong, and
it's okay, and it's okay, they'll find somebody else to
figure it out. But we already know what once we
know what it is, we can fix it. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (32:20):
I think I have definitely heard some people criticize Kathy
who are deeply embedded in the league. I haven't reported
on to know whether or not she is someone who
blatantly doesn't care about the players or simply doesn't understand
how much of her role should be more about caring
about and understanding the plight of her players instead of
just the business side. But you're speaking from a place
of having spoken to players who feel that way. I'll

(32:41):
take your word for it. One thing I want to
say before we leave, which is really fascinating to me,
is thinking about the way the w and not just
the black players, but a lot of the black players
have come together to stand up for things that really
matter and have felt so collaborative. I was listening to
an episode of We Can Do Hard Things with Brittany
Packnet Cunningham. She was talking about specifically Kamala Harris, and

(33:01):
she was talking about the Black women Calls that started
with her initial run for president and continued in the
years since and grew to a space where they were
perfectly ready when Kamala announced her presidency to keep it moving,
and they inspired the white Women for Harris, called the
White Dudes for Harris call, all of the other calls
that have raised lots of money and have helped sort
of these black women teaching others how to organize because

(33:24):
it's been going on for so long. And one thing
that Brittany said that many might find uncomfortable is that
because Black women are so consistently let down, not just
by black men but the rest of the world, that
they know that they have to rely on each other.
So there is a constant feeling of sisterhood and togetherness
and we are in this and bound together to get
what we need via each other, and that white women

(33:44):
do not have the same instinct because we are closer
in proximity to power to white men. There is more
to be gained by us aligning with the men in
our lives than other women. And so when we get
in instances where we were being held back or held down,
we look to the men to help us instead of
to each other. And that includes isolating from and leaving
out black women because they are not the source of

(34:06):
power for us. And so white women in order to
understand how black women organize and move forward in a
way that's even when someone steps out of bounds and
does something Brittany Packnick Cunningham said, we will publicly support her,
and we will privately say hey, we're not doing this. Yep,
call them in and say here's how we're dealing with this.
We're publicly still going to support you, though, And that

(34:27):
kind of connection does not exist. And there are a
million reasons, religion, patriarchy, centuries of bullshit, etc. But in
order for this league and the women leading it, as
well as playing in it and the fans to move
forward is to understand and learn from the way that
black women collaborate. And we've seen that in this league.
And I'm fascinated by this conversation that they had.

Speaker 2 (34:50):
I love you for bringing Brittany into it. You know,
she's one of my closest friends. She's in our here.

Speaker 1 (34:55):
I want to meet her. She's in our group.

Speaker 2 (34:56):
Chat called Machete. So I'm going to tell you what
she said. We have this group chat cap right, So
it's it's Sunny Sonny Hoysten from the view, it's Brittany,
it's me, it's Angela, It's it's Joey Read. It's a
bunch of just amazing Angela Rie just a bunch of
amazing women and everything she said is true. The group
chat was formed because during the pandemic, we were feeling
very marginalized and left out and not supported, and that's

(35:20):
what it was about. It was about bringing everyone together
and in our own different disciplines, different fields that we
worked in making sure that we all felt supported. And
we also had other people in the background moving chips
for us to make sure that our voices were heard.
The the the and I don't and I'm not saying
this in a braggadocious way, I almost feel like it's
it's it's become a burden. Black women are the moral
conscience of society. We always are worried about everybody else

(35:43):
but ourselves. We've raised their kids, We've raised we we
take care of their families, We take care of our families.
We always say, well, that's not right, and we do
publicly support and we privately we privately disciplined. I feel
like that has helped us, but it's also heard as
in so many ways because if we aren't more honest

(36:03):
about what we feel, these women aren't doing. Ie, white women,
do you remember that share the mic where Glenny Doyle
was apart. Yeah, and we and we took over the
white women's platforms that had the larger platforms.

Speaker 1 (36:13):
Remember I had two black women take over my ESPN
show that.

Speaker 2 (36:17):
Night, remember, and you know, and you saw the response
and some of it good, some of it bad. But
it was just a perfect example of what doesn't exist
outside of our community and our culture and in order.
And I'm not saying that there needs to be a
black woman running the WNBA, but what I am saying
it needs to be somebody who really truly believes in
sisterhood and she's benefited from it. If you haven't benefited

(36:40):
from sisterhood and men have only helped you all your
life and in your career and personally and professionally, you
can't relate. You just can't. You don't even know, you
don't even know what sisterhood looks like. And also, I'll
say this, and you tell me if I'm wrong. We
were just raised differently. I was raised to take care
of women. I was raised to believe in women. I
couldn't talk smack to my mother. If I have no

(37:00):
respect for my mom, I'm gonna have any respect for
the girl next door. I wish I would say something
slick to my mom. She'd look at me like I
was crazy. Even to this day, Like, even to this day,
I'm still afraid of saying something wrong.

Speaker 1 (37:10):
I'm not big on generalizations. I'll give you that. There's
probably a lot of instances in both directions, But yes,
I see your point. Therefore, shore I agree.

Speaker 2 (37:18):
But I do know, for I do know for a
fact you don't. I'm not saying you. I'm saying it's
hard to grow up and say I don't deal with
this because I've never seen it. You know what I mean?

Speaker 1 (37:28):
Oh absolutely, I just mean like I would never talk
shit to my mom.

Speaker 4 (37:31):
But yes, I agree with you, which is why we
were like she's one of us. Like and I hate
to even say that, like I know you don't want
to and you can say, alth I'm telling you what
what a conversation would be behind closed doors, And Brittany
would love you, by the way, But the reality.

Speaker 2 (37:45):
Is we need to make a day happen. But the
reality is is that we're talking about it, and we
have the mic, and we can say and and no
one's always right, no one's always wrong. But what I
hope is is that at the end of the day,
we let these women play sports like they are allowed
to play and not in not put any titles and
define them and put boxes around them. And I'm giving
Caitlin as much grace as she needs to figure it out.

(38:07):
I really truly I agree.

Speaker 1 (38:08):
And I think where we wrap here, which is great,
is not only that they get to play in the
way that they want and they get to be what
they want, but that are conversations not only allow that,
but because of this moment that we're in, we move
forward as a result of this awkward and difficult time,
right that instead of just having these conversations and then
moving on and forgetting everything that we allegedly learned from them,

(38:29):
that we move forward and have better understand the next
time issues of misogynore and homophobia and everything else come
up in the lead, that we don't just redo this
all over again. That's what we need to do, is
learn when we have these opportunities, these awkward and difficult
conversations that come up as a result of organic things
like this rivalry, take what we learn and then move
forward and make the sion based on them.

Speaker 2 (38:49):
We did resolve that, we did, We did put this
out there and solved. We just did it.

Speaker 1 (38:54):
Yeah, well, thank you Carrie. I always to have it
to you. I'm excited to listen to more of the
podcast and good luck with it.

Speaker 2 (39:00):
Thank you, Brand, you too, good luck with yours. This exciting.

Speaker 1 (39:05):
Thanks to Kerry for dropping by. We'll keep listening to
the pod. We got to take another break. When we return,
we make sure you Slices fulfill your civic duty. Welcome back,
Orange Slices. You know this already, but yesterday was National
Voter Registration Day. Athletes, celebs, brands of all kinds, from

(39:26):
Billie Eilish to US Soccer to Ben and Jerry's got
out the message with all sorts of videos and social posts,
including the WNBA joining Rock the Vote to mobilized voters.
You can check it out at Rockthvote dot org slash
teamw We'll link to it in our show notes. Remember
we're less than fifty days out from election day, and
in a lot of states you have to be registered
by October sixth in order to vote on November fifth,

(39:48):
So even if you think you're registered, be sure to
double or triple check. Lots of states periodically purge their
voter rules, which is a topic for another time. So
even if you voted in a previous election, make sure
you're registered for this one, especially if you moved or
went to college. Just don't nod your head while listening
to this. Get out your phone and hop on your
computer and do it. It takes thirty seconds. Speaking of voting,

(40:11):
with the regular season in the WNBA almost wrapped, ESPN's
trio of award voters have publicly announced their picks. Kevin Pelton,
Alexa Philippo, and Michael Voppel were aligned for four of
the six major WNBA awards, unanimously selecting Asia Wilson for MVP,
Caitlin Clark for Rookie of the Year, Cheryl Reeve for
Coach of the Year, and the FISA Collier for Defensive

(40:32):
Player of the Year. The total voting panel of sixty
eight media members at national outlets and within the twelve
WNBA markets will turn in their ballots by noon Eastern
on Friday, and the award winners will be announced throughout
the postseason. But you can turn in your ballot now. Yep,
it's time for fight me. I said what I said,
so you know what?

Speaker 2 (40:53):
Fight me?

Speaker 1 (40:54):
Yep, fight me, which means our resident w expert miche
has to weigh in, and so do I. I'll go first.
I'm gonna keep it pretty simple, pretty quick. I actually
agree with the aforementioned ESPN writers on the first couple.
So Asia Wilson MVP, Caitlin Clark Rookie of the Year,
Nafisa Collier. I'm gonna give the edge shoot for Defensive

(41:16):
Player of the Year, but I think it almost might
be like one of those kind of nice things, like,
obviously Asia's the MVP, but Nafisa had a great season,
so give her a little bit of a nudge there,
and she and Asia go back and forth on those
defensive statistics. There's certain ones where Asia's leading, there's certain
ones where in Afiicia's leading, and I don't know. I'm
just gonna want to give her something for the seasons

(41:36):
she's had, so I'm doing that. And then I agree
with Cheryl Reeves as the Coach of the Year. There's
a couple that are definitely in the running there, but
the links have been incredibly impressive, especially after the Olympic break.
The other two awards they're like not unanimous on and
I can totally see why there's an argument for a
bunch of them. But my sixth person of the Year,
I gotta go with Leoni Foevich to the New York Liberty.
She's a rookie out of Germany, and the Liberty have

(41:57):
just had such a dominant season. I know that we've
talked about the Links kind of taking the power of late,
but they've been pretty powerful all season long, start to finish,
and she ended up starting fifteen games when a bunch
of players were in and out of the lineup for injury.
And this was a team that also, you know, had
people at the Olympics. Foebish herself played in the Olympics
for Germany. So I don't know I'm given the nod

(42:18):
to her, but the argument is there for certainly the others,
and then same with most improved I could see a
handful of players. This is not a Homer pick. It
might just be that I know more about her. But
Kennedy Carter, for all she's had in her past, like
literally playing only eleven games because of issues with teammates
and you know, being sidelined because of behavior, it's not

(42:40):
just that her play has been so impressive for a
team that really needed it in the sky, but also
just being able to stay on the court, being able
to find focus under a new head coach. Obviously, Tea
Spoon has a way of keeping her in the game,
and when she's been hot, Kennedy Carter has been hot.
So I'm gonna go ahead and give her most proved

(43:00):
You've given me much here, Sarah Spain. I'll breethe through
my first two quickly. Asia's MVP, Kaitlin Clark's Rookie of
the Year. My coach of the Year is Eric Tebow
because we just.

Speaker 5 (43:13):
Talked about the way the Mystics have turned this ship around,
and we would be remiss if we did not at
least put him in that conversation. I don't have a vote,
so I feel really good about it, but it's.

Speaker 1 (43:27):
A decent one. If they don't make the postseason, though,
that'll be really impressive, it girl, Like, Yeah, I want
to give the guy who came to an zero to
twelve start and they missed the playoffs coach of the year.
Like without contacts later on, your people will be like,
what happened that year?

Speaker 5 (43:39):
Yeah, yeah, that's true, But I'll swallow my pride on
that one. For Defensive Player of the Year, I'm taking
the philosophical opposite stance as you, meaning, yes, Fie, I
feel like it would be insane for her to finish
the season with no none of those major awards, right,
But I also think it's insane to not reward greatness

(44:01):
while we're seeing it. And I think just because Asia
is having an MVP season, that doesn't mean we could
ignore the fact she's leading the leading blocks, leading the
league in defensive rebounds, defensive winds shares head to head
against NAFISA Colliers. She's also leading that battle so and
for those who don't know, that's a stat that measures
how much a player contributes to their team's wins through

(44:21):
defense avanced stats. I'm not a huge fan, but they're
pointing to Agie Wilson right now.

Speaker 1 (44:25):
I'm not gonna argue with you on that, Like I could.
I completely torn. I literally just picked it because it's
like I'll pick someone else for that one, even though
Asia could absolutely and maybe should get it.

Speaker 5 (44:33):
Yeah, six Player of the Year, I got Tiffany Hayes.

Speaker 1 (44:38):
We just talked about Asia.

Speaker 5 (44:39):
She obviously shouldered a lot of that load for the Aces,
but I also think they wouldn't be in this position
without Tip Hayes. She is true two way player, true
instant offense, the energy undeniable on the court or on
the bench as a vet. And let's also remember tip
Hays is coming back to the league. She was in retirement,
came out of retirement just to play with the Aces

(44:59):
this year, and so add that to the mixed bag
as well. And again philosophical difference here. Foebich has started
eleven more games for the Liberty than Hayes has for
the Aces, And to me, that speaks kind of to
the spirit of this award, Right, I'm looking at who
comes off the bench to provide more and less time
is kind of how I approach sixth Player of the Year.

Speaker 1 (45:18):
So that's me on that.

Speaker 5 (45:19):
And then most Improved, it's gotta be Dja because Kennedy,
people who've been paying attention to her know she's been
hooping like this.

Speaker 1 (45:26):
She has made capsule age could be hooping like this,
but she wasn't because she wasn't even on the floor.

Speaker 5 (45:33):
It's not because of things that happened on the court though,
It's not because of those where it's like hard with
the semantics of must improved, what does that mean?

Speaker 1 (45:40):
Like you were a worse player and now you're better,
or you weren't doing this and now you are.

Speaker 5 (45:44):
Exactly That is the root of the issue there, and
all of these awards I think can be contested based
on what you think the criteria except for except for.

Speaker 1 (45:51):
That, and probably Caitlin at this point too. Oh yeah,
I think that's I think she's got that wrapped up.

Speaker 2 (45:58):
But uh yeah, I.

Speaker 1 (46:00):
Got to give that the DJNA. So that's me. That's
my picks, yo, Okay, those are ours. Send us your
picks for the end of season awards. Who's your MVP,
Rookie of the Year, Defensive Player of the Year, Coach
of the Year, most Improved Player, and sixth Player of
the Year. If you don't have a vote for all
of them, just send what you got. Send them to
me on Twitter or exit Sarah Spain Instagram at Spain
two three two three, or email us at good Game

(46:21):
at wondermedianetwork dot com. That's your good gameplay of the day.
And also a reminder, we know that Thursday could be
Diana Tarassi's last regular season game, so let us know
what's your favorite DT memory. We really want to play
some of your awesome responses on the show, So leave
us a voicemail at eight seven to two two o
four fifty seventy, or you can hit us up on
email if that's your thing. Good game at Wondermedia network

(46:42):
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shit centered waited blanket, a friend gave me a few
for my dogs. They're supposed to be calming, and they are.

(47:25):
I know this because they're mine.

Speaker 2 (47:26):
Now.

Speaker 1 (47:27):
Don't feel bad for the dogs, though, because they lie
directly on top of me like barnacles. In fact, They're
kind of like their own special kind of way to blanket. Now,
it's your turn, rate and review. Thanks for listening, See
you tomorrow. Good Game, Carrie, Good Game, Jordan Chiles, You
Voter Disenfranchisement. Good Game with Sarah Spain is an iHeart
women's sports production in partnership with Deep Blue Sports and Entertainment.

(47:50):
You can find us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you get your podcasts. Production by Wonder Media Network,
our producers are Alex Azzi and Misha Jones. Our executive
producers are Christina Everett, Jesse Katz, Jenny Kaplan, and Emily Rutterer.
Our editors are Jenny Kaplan, Emily Rutterer, Brittany Martinez and
Grace Lynch. Production assistants from Lucy Jones and I'm Your

(48:12):
Host Sarah Spain