Hamstrung by Paternal Systems with the WNBA & NWSL Players Associations

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to Good Game with Sarah Spain, where we've got
Brandy Carlisle's two new songs on repeat and we're counting
down the days till the full album drops. Slices Brandy
plus Boniever Swoon. It's Thursday, October sixteenth, and on today's
show will be joined by a trio of experts who
know a thing or two about negotiating. I caught up

(00:21):
with Megan Burke and Tory Huster of the NWSL Players
Association and Aaron Drake of the WNBA Players Association to
discuss the behind the scenes process of collective bargaining negotiations,
what the two leagues have learned from each other, and
to ask if there's any chance this w deal gets
done on time. Plus leaking on yourself, All eyes on

(00:42):
the w and another retirement Hot off the Press. That's
all coming up right after this Welcome Back slices. Here's
what you need to know today. Let's start with soccer
and the news that Kristin Press is retiring at the

(01:04):
end of the twenty twenty five NWSL season. Press, a
two time World Cup champion, announced the decision on Wednesday
on Good Morning America, saying quote I thought I would
wait until I didn't want to play anymore, but I
realized that time's never going to come, and I can
play and my body can keep going, and I think
it was really important for me to make this decision
for myself before that became a different reality. End quote.

(01:27):
Press started her professional career in twenty eleven as part
of the now defunct Women's Professional Soccer League AKAWPS, and
she earned her first cap for the US national team
back in twenty thirteen. In the last year, Press has
served mostly as a substitute for Angel City FC, after
she missed more than two full years from twenty twenty
two to twenty twenty four due to a knee injury
in subsequent surgeries. Press's decision to retire follows that of

(01:50):
her wife, Tobin Heath, who hadn't played in several years
but didn't officially announce her retirement until earlier this year.
Press's spectacular career stands as is, but I also couldn't
help but think that she retires with so many lingering
what ifs. The early part of her career was gravely
affected by dysfunction at Magic Jack in the WPS, causing

(02:10):
her to take her game to Sweden, only to return
to more toxicity in the NWSL with the Chicago Red Stars,
where voicing her concerns got her traded to Houston, and
instead of playing there, she again decided to go back
to Sweden. Eventually, after stops with the Utah Royals and
a season at Manchester United, she landed at Angel City,
a team with financial support, a big fan base, and

(02:33):
the resources and amenities and the culture that she should
have had all along, and a knee injury derails that
storybook ending. Press is ninth all time in scoring for
the US national team and made an incredible impact across
multiple teams. But I think she's a great example of
someone who likely could have done even more in a
system that valued and served its greats from the beginning.

(02:54):
You can read more about Press's complicated career in Meglenahan's
piece for The Athletic, and then also in The Athletic,
you can read Press's thank you letters to herself, soccer
and the fans more soccer. We got a new US
women's national team roster on Wednesday, with coach Emma Hayes
naming a twenty six player training camp ahead of a
trio of friendlies against Portland and New Zealand later this month.

(03:15):
Highlights include the return of Trinity Rodman, who makes her
way back to the national team for the first time
since April after missing the last two camps with an
ongoing back injury, as well as the return of Jaden Shaw.
The twenty year old Shaw hadn't been invited to senior
team camps earlier this year after her trade to the
North Carolina Courage, but she's thrived in the NWSL since
being traded to goth Them FC, which clearly caught Hayes attention.

(03:37):
We'll link to the full roster in the show notes,
as well as the schedule for the upcoming friendlies to
the WNBA. And a little oops a daisy new expansion team,
the Portland Fire, appears to have accidentally leaked the name
of the team's first head coach. On Tuesday, the team's
Instagram and LinkedIn accounts posted an announcement that Alex Sarama
had been named as the franchise's head coach, but the

(03:59):
post were quickly deleted. Local media outlet The Portland Supporter
was the first to report on the posts and deletions.
Per Annie Costable, a front Office Sports Serama is expected
to be announced in the coming days, but his contract
hasn't yet been finalized. He's been an assistant coach with
the Cleveland Cavaliers for the last fifteen months, and prior
to that, he worked as an assistant coach and director

(04:21):
of player development for Portland's G League affiliate team, the
Rip City Remix. Now, it's worth noting that this isn't
the first time Portland's big reveal has been spoiled by
a leak. Remember back in June, the team's name was
discovered via trademark filings. Man If Portland keeps spoiling its
own surprises, we're going to have to give them an
official The rumors are true. Inspired tagline Portland. Where there's smoke,

(04:43):
there's the fire more WNBA. This year's WNBA Playoffs were
the most watched ever on ESPN Networks, averaging one point
two million viewers across all three rounds, up five percent
year over year, and the WNBA Finals were the second
most watched finals series ever on ESPN Networks. They've had
exclusive rights to the WNBA Playoffs since two thousand and three.

(05:04):
An average of one point four to five million people
tuned into the Aces four game sweep of the Mercury,
down slightly from one point five to seven million people
last year who watched New York and Minnesota battle it
out in a much more closely contested five game series. Finally,
in Vibes News, League One Volleyball aka Love has announced
a new expansion team, Love Los Angeles. Alexis O'hanian, husband

(05:26):
of tennis great Serena Williams, Reddit founder sports investor, fresh
off his latest Athlos track event, has entered an agreement
along with his seven to seven six Ventures team to
lead the Love LA ownership group. The team will become
the league's seventh professional team and will debut at the
start of season three in January of twenty twenty seven.
Side note how many times per love LA game you

(05:48):
think they're going to play? Hello, Belay, We're going to
take a quick break when we come back. Many hands
make light work with Megan Tory and Aaron That's next
joining us on the show for a second time. She's
the deputy executive director of the NWSL Players Association and

(06:11):
a former pro player who spent most of her career
with the Washington Spirit and Clubs in Australia before retiring
last December. She was the only player to have been
on the Washington Spirit for all eleven seasons of its existence.
A Cincinnati native, she played her college soccer for the
Florida Seminoles, where she received the Golden Torch Award, which
is given to the athlete from each sport with the
highest grade point average. As president of the Players Association
from twenty twenty to twenty four, she was integral in

(06:33):
helping the nwsl and the Players Association agree to its
first ever CBA back in twenty twenty two, and then
a groundbreaking new CBA last year. It's Tory Houster also
back for a second time. She's an attorney and the
executive director of the NWSLPA, who led negotiations of the
league's first ever CBA in twenty twenty two and their
league and sport shifting CBA in twenty twenty four. A

(06:54):
former player in the WPSL, WUSA, WPS and in England,
she played college soccer for Saint Louis University, where she
earned the nickname the Berkenader and was named the school's
Player of the decade. She's a former coach and a
serious lurer with a degree from Northeastern University. But we
still once made a thirteen person human pyramid outside of
bar at two AM and Louisville. And the last time
she joined the show, it was from a beach chair

(07:15):
on vacation. It's Megan Burke and making her Good Game debut.
She's the Senior Advisor and legal counsel for the Women's
National Basketball Players Association aka the WNBPA. She also co
leads the Justice Equity, Diversity and Inclusion Player Leadership Committee,
sits on the Sports Council for the American Federation of
Labor and Congress of Industrial Organizations, and is a member

(07:35):
of the Union's Collective Bargaining Negotiations team. A Nashville native,
she's a Harvard grad. But she didn't just go to Harvard.
She was awarded the Barrett Wendell Prize for Exceptional Sophomore Work,
the Paul Revere Frothingham Scholarship Prize for the Harvard senior
who best exemplifies the qualities of excellent scholarship and character,
and was selected to be the Class of twenty seventeen
convocation speaker. And that wasn't impressive enough, so she went

(07:56):
to Yale Law School. It's Aaron Drake. Hi, three of you.
This is our first threesome Slash four some. Thank you
for being a part of it, Thanks for having us.

Speaker 2 (08:06):
And Sarah, thank you for having us on. That's quite
an intro. That was amazing. Sarah, do you brieve?

Speaker 3 (08:11):
Yeah?

Speaker 4 (08:11):
I was just about to say, Nita break.

Speaker 1 (08:13):
I always try to tell my producers that I'm the
micromachines guy, but they're not old enough to know the reference,
so I just make myself sound old. Well, you guys
are a trio of smarty pants, and I'm so excited
to talk about how women's pro leagues are uniting to
ensure that women athletes get paid what they're worth, how
they unite to make sure women work in safe and
supportive environments, and that pro leagues continue their rocket ship

(08:36):
growth by prioritizing the product, which is the players. So
I want to start with you, Megan, because you and
Tory were on the show last August to talk about
the groundbreaking NWSLCBA that, among other things, abolish the draft
and help the NWSL better align with the global game
and schedule. So why are you here now when the
CBA negotiations at hand are for basketball for the WNBA.

Speaker 2 (08:58):
Well, first of all, you invited me, so thank you, Sarah.
That's always good to be with you. Well, look, I
think it's no secret that our relationship with the WNBPA
is a really important one. It's important not just to
the players collectively and to the unions collectively, but to
me personally. Terry and Aaron have been tremendous sisters in
the labor fight. We stand with them and their struggles

(09:20):
because they've stood with us and ours. And so while
they are certainly leading the way and they're at the
bargaining table, we're we're right behind them and hot on
their heels and standing with them and really excited to
get to talk about all that today.

Speaker 1 (09:31):
Terry Jackson, of course head the WNBPA, Aaron who reached
out to whom to get this collaboration started.

Speaker 3 (09:39):
So if we're talking about the collaboration of these two
unions in general, I'm not sure you know. I know
that we've been in existence for a little bit longer
than the NWSLPA, But when I certainly started in this show,
this relationship was steal tight already, and I knew that
for Megan and Tory who at that time I believe

(10:00):
was the president of the union and not yet fully staffed.
That they were resources, but not just resources, but were
people to be able to work with. And so sometimes
it's us and sometimes it's them, but we talk often.
We talk often about a number of like the news
of the day, what we're kind of individually going through,
and what we're hearing from our players all the time.

Speaker 1 (10:23):
Yeah, I mean, it's so smart, Tory, you, as Aaron mentioned,
led the PA through all of these negotiations last year.
So what are the biggest things you would tell WNBA
players and their Players Association about CBA negotiations, the ups
and downs, the fights, the handshakes. What do you did
you take away from your time that you've wanted to
share with them.

Speaker 4 (10:44):
I would say the one thing about negotiations is that
it's not hard to get people engaged. I think Aaron
and I have we've spoken about that negotiations are the
prime time for a labor union, but specifically for us
and for our collective membership that is across fourteen different

(11:06):
markets for US, for the w for their teams. I
think one of the things for us that's been difficult
is communicating through all of the teams, all the different
players who are competitors on a weekly basis, and then
bringing everyone together for a collective effort. But we see
the WMBPA is doing exactly what we did last year,

(11:30):
really holding strong to what they know, they want, what
they know they deserve and they have earned. And that's
what we always try to do, and that's what we're
here to support them on for their fight.

Speaker 1 (11:41):
Yeah, if there's anything difficult about making teammates out of competitors,
at least in the WNBA, there's only like two players
currently signed to teams. They're basically almost all free agents
right now because they're anticipating this new CBA, so it's
a little easier to convince them, hey, you might be
working with someone you're actually playing alongside next year. Nobody knows.
Nobody knows, Aaron, how different is this process for y'all

(12:03):
because of the complicated ownership structure of the w Just
a reminder for everybody, forty two percent owned by the NBA,
forty two percent by the WNBA, sixteen percent of private
equity group. But actually the NBA is a little bit
more like sixty percent because some of those owners double
dip in the first round and the equity. A lot
of the new expansion teams are owned by NBA owners,
So how does that make it different. You're not really

(12:25):
just doing a players association plus ownership coming together to agree.
There's a handful of pieces that have to come together.

Speaker 3 (12:33):
Yeah, that's exactly right, Sarah. And it's a good question,
and it's one that I think anyone paying attention should
be asking. I know the players are asking it. I
know that we ask it. We like the WNBPA is
the collective bargaining right like unit for this union for
the players of the WNBA. That's clear, right, it's it's

(12:53):
it's just us, It's just the players on the other
side the structure that they have, they say that it's
the WBA, and that is the That's who we're negotiating with.
That's who's across the table. But as I think, you know,
the conversation that you had with day Very, I think
is very helpful for the public to understand the various

(13:15):
layers that at times, who is the main decision maker here?
I think that, frankly is still somewhat of an open question.
But what we know is that when we're talking to Kathy,
We're talking to Adam too, and not just also to
the investors who are now part owners of this league. Right,

(13:38):
that's sixteen percent. That might sound small or insignificant, it
is not right. That is something that we take seriously
and that the players take seriously. And so for those
folks who are part of that capital raise, including former players,
including you know, folks like Ali Bank and Google and Deloitte,
these folks who are beacons or put themselves out as

(13:59):
beacons of women's I think they have to also ask
the same questions that we ask about this system. What
system are you investigating, what system are you trying to
prop up? And is it one that is going to
continue to undervalue players labor Because at the end of
the day, people are coming to see the players, right,
and yes, that investment has helped build what we see today.
I don't think anyone is saying otherwise. But we're here

(14:21):
now and there are still a lot of questions that
need to be that have to be answered and reckoned with.
But at the end of the day, I don't care
if it's just the w with they're forty two percent,
If it's the kind of like the seventy five. If
it's the sixteen, the bottom line is going to remain
the same. The players are going to demand this revenue
share system that is fair, that is equitable, and that

(14:45):
is that is mature enough to chart this next course
of women's sports.

Speaker 1 (14:52):
Yeah, I want to quickly ask you because when we
were seeing the kind of the FISTA Colli're back and
forth with Kathy Engelburtens so much conversation about that. I
was trying to make an apples to apples comparison across
other leagues and found it difficult because in other leagues,
the commissioner of that league works for the owners of
that league, and it's a pretty cut and dried situation.
Roger Goodell speaks for the owners, takes the slings and

(15:14):
arrows of the media and the fans in order to
protect the ownership for whom he works. Is Kathy Roger
Goodell or as Adam Silver Roger Goodell?

Speaker 3 (15:22):
Again, I think that is a great question. I want
to be careful because in some ways I know that
the ways in which women's sports have been handstrung for
a very long time in paternal systems that it's almost
kind of one can be cheeky or feel satisfied by

(15:47):
thinking that there's a shadow boss here and it's not
the person that we're negotiating with. And so I want
to be very careful not to necessarily say that, but
to understand that this system that has gotten us to
this twenty twenty five negotiation has been one that has
pulled in a lot of different pieces. And so in
terms of who is the ultimate decision maker, I think

(16:09):
it's the owners in the league, right. I think that
those are the folks who we're really talking to. And
I think if you ask league folks, they'll say that
they are the representative of the owners and their kind
of perspective. If that's true, great, we need to be
talking to them more often.

Speaker 1 (16:27):
Right Right, we'll get back to who's actually at the table.
But Megan, I want to ask, as you're talking to
each other throughout this process, does it feel like some
of the same arguments and stalemates come up across the
women's sports space or are the negotiations significantly different between say,
the talks you had last year and what you're hearing
out of the w this year.

Speaker 2 (16:45):
I was just thinking to myself, I feel like I've
said exactly the same things Aaron saying, if not in
interviews at the bargaining table, to players, to anyone who
will listen. And it struck me when the journalists who
wrote that article in The Guardian reached out and started
asking questions about why is this relationship with a WNBPA
like so important. I mean, we see lots of sports
unions across landscape, but it seems like you guys have

(17:06):
a particularly strong relationships. You almost need to be pushing
back at something that I just kind of assumed to
be true, which is, well, obviously we're in the same fight.
Obviously we're dealing with the same dynamics and issues. And
I appreciated the hard questions because it really got me
thinking that, yeah, you know, it really is something. The
w obviously came along first, as Aaron pointed out, it's
a more mature business, for sure, but we've been around

(17:29):
for a hot minute too, and you know where you
look at, hockey and volleyball and women's baseball are coming
along behind us, and we're all saying the same things.
And it's interesting how business folks seem to suspend their
business judgment just because we're talking about women's sports, right,
all of a sudden, we're very concerned about sustainability, and

(17:49):
you know, we suddenly see professional sports as a business
that has to be cash flow positive on an annual basis,
rather than looking at the increase in valuation being the
major economic driver for these owners. And then to Aaron's point,
you know, we come up with these instructors in our history.
We had US Soccer managing the league and you know
Sarah that system of vacation, and they exited and then

(18:09):
we became we had to stand on our own two
feet and do not answer to an MLS or a federation.
But we have that in our history, and so I
think it's really important to Aaron's point.

Speaker 1 (18:19):
We call out the systems.

Speaker 2 (18:20):
Let's at least call them what they're even if you
know the folks who defend them aren't quite ready to
make a pivot from their ways of seeing things, Let's
at least call it what it is.

Speaker 1 (18:28):
Yeah. I think there's a positive way to think about it,
which is that you got support from folks for a
yet unproven product and it helped give you the lift
you needed to get started. Or the cynical way, which
is people wanted to hedge their bets and never fully
believed enough in it to just invest the way they
might any other startup or any other business that should
have been proven by that point. However you look at it,

(18:50):
eventually you will have to reconcile whether you want that
to stay the system that you operate under as you
continue to grow, and for a lot of women's sports
and leagues, it has not been beneficial to be under
the thumb of someone who is now deeply invested in
the product or doesn't believe in it the way that
many do once it has proved that it's a viable product. Torri,
you told us last year that the league actually approached
you about renegotiating the CBA early ahead of the deadline.

(19:12):
They were the ones who came to you. That felt
like a relatively harmonious process, at least from the outside,
unlike maybe what we're seeing publicly play out for the
w But you were still able, despite it feeling harmonious,
to leverage public perception to push for player rights and resources.
How can the w NBPA do the same making sure
that they figure out when and why to go public

(19:35):
with certain parts of the battle.

Speaker 4 (19:37):
What I see already is that they're doing that. They're
doing exactly what they need to do. I think with
the now season coming to a close, they have to
stay out there and stay present, and I think that's
what we're trying to do as well.

Speaker 1 (19:51):
Aaron.

Speaker 4 (19:52):
We've talked about making sure that you all are still
in the limelight even though your season might be closed,
because we're still playing. That's why why you saw the
collaboration with the T shirts. I think hopefully we see
those those T shirts come out again. We'll certainly encourage that.
But it's really they have done. W players have done

(20:12):
exactly what I think they need to do. They're standing
up for what they believe in, what they know to
be true at the table, and we will certainly support
and back them through their fight. I think you talk
about it being harmonious. It's not always harmonious.

Speaker 2 (20:29):
Certainly wasn't last year.

Speaker 4 (20:31):
We It definitely took way too long for a league
that was coming to us voluntarily, and once they got
really serious about it is when we started to put
put more into it and we were able to get
to an agreement. I'm hopeful that the W can get

(20:52):
really serious about what the players want and deserve.

Speaker 1 (20:55):
You mentioned the T shirts. Pay them what you owe them,
pay us what you owe us. Shout out to Breaking
Tea for those you can actually buy them if you
want to support the cause. Aaron, you mentioned talking to
Kathy and Adam, but I couldn't tell if you meant
that you knew Adam was the one behind the things
when you spoke to Kathy, or you meant literally that
he's at the table for you. So how many people
are at the negotiating table when you're usually having these conversations.

Speaker 3 (21:16):
Yeah, so no, I didn't mean either one of those things.
And I fact want to be very careful and not
too and so I appreciate the follow up to insinuate that, right.
I think my point was that they can all be
at the table. One of them can be at the table.
At the end of the day, our goal remains the same.

(21:37):
It doesn't really matter who we're talking to about it.
The message is clear. The players are demanding a more
mature economic model that pays them from the revenue that
they generate. And right now, so the folks across the table,
it's the Labor Relationship Committee and that's a part of
the owners, like the representatives from the Board of Governors.

(21:59):
I think it's seven of thirteen and the WNBA is
there right so Kathy at her staff or on the
other side of the table. But Adam is a part
of that. He has made himself a part of this
with his recent comments about the negotiation. And I think
we as a union and the players because again, like

(22:21):
we work for them, they are the folks who are
leading this like the more the merrier, frankly, because as
I said, the message is going to stay the same
regardless of who we're talking to.

Speaker 1 (22:33):
You know, Mike, dit both leagues have new and old
school owners, often with vastly different financial situations. How do
you reconcile so far what major shifts in your CBA
might mean for the less wealthy ownership groups. And then
I have a follow up about some of those changes
to the CBA. But so far, how has it been
trying to figure out the billionaire NFL owner types that
are in the league versus maybe the original and WSL

(22:55):
owners that can't keep up.

Speaker 2 (22:57):
Well. You know, it's an interesting question because I think
we're still seeing some of the limitations of our current structure,
where some of the clubs that are ready to spend
and be competitive with the likes of Chelsea are held
back from doing that. So what I would say here
relative to the you know, ongoing labor negotiations, not only
that you're seeing in the W but also Major League
Baseball's coming up. You know, we're going to see some

(23:19):
interesting labor negotiations over the next several years. I would
describe CBA negotiations as more almost like a tripart tide negotiation.
You know, oftentimes the league just sends their representatives and
the union sends their representatives, but the teams are actually
who the players work for, interact with every day.

Speaker 1 (23:37):
They've got skin in the game.

Speaker 2 (23:38):
Arguably even more than the league does. And so you
know our position, I don't want to insert myself in
the w's negotiations, that's theirs. But in our history, we've
always found it really important to have team representatives there
who are the ones that are actually going to operationalize
and execute on whatever we agree to. And so sometimes
that's a missing ingredient. And to your point, I think

(23:59):
in the end of you see there are some legacy
clubs that are not investing in evolving to keep up.
I think competition is awesome. I don't know about you.
That's why I love pro sports, is it not? I
like winners, so we want to see teams invest and
compete and try to level up.

Speaker 1 (24:13):
Our game toward. Do you think that the investors coming
into these women's spaces, now that the financial situation is different,
are even interested in uplifting women? And if they are,
do you think they're working to make sure that happens
or do you have to worry now about who's involved
in the space as opposed to just how much money
they're bringing into the space.

Speaker 4 (24:33):
I think everyone is looking at women's sports as a
profitable business now, so you're going to have to worry
about people getting into this for the wrong reasons.

Speaker 1 (24:42):
I think.

Speaker 4 (24:44):
What we have seen thus far, and to your question
about owners that have been around for a long time,
who aren't those billionaires, I think maybe there's still this
philosophy out there that any investment should be played should
be grateful for, and I think we need to move
away from that. I think gratitude cannot be coerced. First,

(25:07):
We've talked about it at great lengths in our conversations
with our players, and it's just not where women's sports
exists anymore. So I think vetting the investment that comes
into our game, into basketball, that is really important. New
ownership groups making sure that they are top notch humans.

(25:30):
I think that is certainly something that we look out for.

Speaker 1 (25:34):
Aaron, I want to get to this investor's thing because
on the women's side, just a constant conversation. By the way,
we keep talking about the sixteen percent because of the
ownership makeup. And I was invited into them because I
had such a terrible NWSL investment experience. I turned it
down and that turned out to be a really bad
idea because that sixteen percent got a real good deal
on a rocket ship. Anyway, this isn't about me, these

(25:59):
investors that are pouring money and Adam Silver is using
the literal world's rocket trajectory, right, So we're hearing about
rocket ship growth while they're still saying they can't play
the players. The same people still have the power. The
women actually driving the growth aren't seeing the same rocket
trajectory that everybody else is. So when folks are investing,
are they actually investing in women or just around them?

Speaker 3 (26:20):
Yeah? And I think one sorry Sarah for for what
happened with your potential investment. I you know, wow, let's
not linger, but yeah, exactly. Look, I want to answer
this question kind of head on and then kind of
take a step back and unwind it a little bit.

(26:43):
If they are investing but they don't know kind of
like whether this money is actually going to athletes, they
need to be asking me some questions. I think for
all of the folks that I named earlier, for the
folks who are involved in that capital raise, for the
change makers at them, for the debt, for all of
these investors, they are very loud about their investments. We

(27:07):
see the commercials, which are great, the good commercials you know,
about the future, about opportunity, about girls and about women,
and that sound great, but it's just optics if you're
not pushing for that money to get to players. And
so you know, again for the ally banks, for the
at and Ts, the Googles, the State's truths, like the

(27:27):
Bumbles and the Deloittes, you have to ask yourself, where
is my investment going. If you just want it to
go to the business, that's one thing. If you just
want to build infrastructure, that's one thing. If you think
that it is going to players, well, right, let's take
a set back let's kind of stay with that first scenario, right,

(27:51):
Let's accept for a second that that needed to happen, right, Like,
I think we can all say that what the capital
raise was at this point looks undervalued. Will say, we'll
just leave it there, Yes, just like the media rized tale. Right,
It's like, but you know, don't want to have a
confirmation bias or something like that. So let's just leave
that there, and let's accept that that money had to

(28:12):
be raised to get us to this point. Even if
we think that it was too low.

Speaker 1 (28:18):
It worked. It worked.

Speaker 3 (28:20):
We are here, and so the players have been keeping
up with their side of the bargain for almost three decades,
for almost thirty years, been putting I'm elite basketball, elite
talent on a stage for people to enjoy, for people
to consume, for people to be inspired by. If that

(28:40):
setting that they were playing and didn't match, there was
a need for investment. But now we have a setting
that is a bit more appropriate for the world's best
talent in basketball. Right, Like, we just saw the finals
and it's like we were watching some of the best
players to ever play this game, and who might be
the best for decades and centuries to come. You can't

(29:04):
clip them in a rec center. That's not going to
imbue inspiration to anyone who's paying attention for dollars or
anything else. Right, So I'm not saying that we didn't
need that infrastructure, but it's here, and for women's sports,
I think there has been a need for that kind
of literal infrastructure, like the buildings of playing the practice facilities,

(29:26):
the professionalization of the spaces, but there's also been a
need for the societal and cultural kind of infrastructure. I
think we can spend a lot of time in this
conversation talking about how we got to the need to
rebuild that because actions happened a long time ago that
prevented that natural potential kind of interest to take hold

(29:49):
and grow naturally. Back to that conversation where we're just
having about competition and allowing that to grow. But now
we're here and so our are you expecting the same
system to take hold that you invested in five years
ago potentially ten years ago that's been sustainable and so.

Speaker 1 (30:09):
Well, what would it take for the money to finally
reach the athletes? Like does it have to be a
literal system like in college where they say click the
box where you want your money to go. I only
wanted to go to the track team, or I only
wanted to go to the library. Like, how do we
actually ensure that future investors who do want to prop
up the athletes in addition to the full product get
their wish.

Speaker 3 (30:30):
Yeah, thankfully they don't have to do it alone because
we like the players have a union, right, and that's
exactly what we're fighting for. Sometimes these systems need help.
And this is kind of like the biggest kind of
reason to have labor unions. It's an order to push,
it's an order to be able to negotiate in that room.
How the players are going to be kind of able

(30:51):
to recoup in this business, it's not just on the investors.
Y'all do your part, and the players are going to
do theirs, and the union is going to do theirs.
The league also has to do theirs and understand that
we are not in the infancy stage anymore. A evolution
is necessary. But if you don't do it, that can
so kind of equal death. It's not just one direction

(31:11):
or the other. You have to do both. And it's
that simple. So no, there's no need to check a box.
I think you might need to make a phone call right.
I encourage these folks to call Kathy. I encourage these
folks to call Adam and ask the hard questions because
we cannot be the only ones asking them. The players
cannot be the only ones who are beating this trump. Thankfully,

(31:31):
in today's kind of world, they aren't right because we
have sisters in the I'm in soccer asking them, we
have the public asking them. But these investors, these sponsors,
they also have a role to play.

Speaker 1 (31:42):
And they've got the weight to put the pressure on
those folks real quick. I wanted to ask you because
you've got with you Megan and Tory who helped push
for some really big changes on the NWSL side. Abolishing
of the college draft, expansion draft, and trades without player
consent all gone. These are three things that were very
important to players in soccer, assisting their ability to compete
in the global games. As far as we've heard, those

(32:04):
things don't seem to be as important to w players,
in part because of their desire to make this the
preferred league and maybe to stop having to go globally
to make their money in the off season. But does
the WNBPA have any interest in seeing any of those
same changes made in basketball. Are there things that they're
fighting for that we're not talking about because we're only

(32:24):
focused on revenue share?

Speaker 3 (32:26):
I mean, yeah, that's the main thing, right, Like, let's
keep the main thing the main thing. But you know,
I've talked about facilities, talking about I'm kind of working
on conditions, and the players are talking a lot about
their legacy and the future and understanding that basketball at
this level might be a short part of their lives.
But what about the next generation, what about the next
ten years of their lives after they stopped playing. But

(32:47):
I will say what's so inspiring about what kind of
Meghan and Tory and their executive leadership has been able
to accomplish is to have proposals and to get proposals
that were response to their players' needs and their wants
to be able to have the lives as athletes that
they wanted to have, which for them included not having

(33:09):
a draft, which for them included having to consent to
trades right, which for them included having this destination be
competitive on the world stage. Because soccer is a global game,
you can't act like it's just a sport that is
played within this nation. I think for us, there are
things that players also want to be able to lit
out their vision for the future of basketball. That has

(33:31):
a lot to do with choice and opportunity and not
being hamstrung for by any one team or any one
league when there's money left on the table. Again, competition
is the name of the game, right We want people
to have to compete, not to be grandfathered in, particularly
when the treatment frankly is not worth it.

Speaker 1 (33:51):
Yeah, I mean, I think maybe not abolishing the draft
or requiring trade consent, but we've certainly seen things like
needing those rookie type contracts where you're not able to
move out of the team if you're not having a
good experience change Because for such a long time, the
best players in the league had almost their entire career
halfway done before they had an opportunity to choose where
they wanted to play. So we are seeing you fight
for things like that. Officiating that's obviously a big When

(34:13):
are there ways that you're making sure that the new
CBA addresses officiating concerns?

Speaker 3 (34:18):
I think we are looking at every aspect of this
game right truly, and I'm not yeah, like I'm not
going to get too specific, but I think a second ago,
like you brought up the rookie contract, it's like people
forget that this isn't soccer, This isn't that, this isn't
men's basketball where people are coming in at the ages
of you know, thirteen fourteen, I'm an eighteen nineteen, right.

(34:40):
The majority of the players who are coming into the
w are in their twenties, right, and for an athlete
have been four years on a rookie contract. As you said,
that could be your entire career. And that's that's you know,
pretty long for a team to just automatically have your
rights because they happened not to make the playoffs last
season and happen to get a good draft lottery pick.

Speaker 1 (35:02):
Right, especially since we know that some of the teams
keep getting those high picks, aren't making significant changes in
investments and continue to be the teams drafting high and
not giving the players to play for them an opportunity
to sniff the postseason, so that ability to make sense
it becomes really important. I said it. We're running out
of time here, so I want to get a thought
from each of you about like Megan and Tory from

(35:24):
your dvantage point, how you think this is going to
go in the next month or two, and what you
think people should know about this from the outside based
on your experience. Whichever one of you wants to start, I'll.

Speaker 2 (35:37):
Be happy to toy take a stab first, and you're
welcome to come in and correct everything that I say,
because I'm sure you've got some wisdom to throw it
on here on this one. You know, one of the
things that I've observed from the outside looking and watching
these negotiations of the w is how similar the dynamics are.
And it's just it comes back to the arrogance of power.
I am struck by what I perceive what I perceived

(35:59):
to be going on. And this is not of course,
for you know, I'm not in the room, I'm not
at the table. But it's just amazing how much leverage
players have right now. And I think it's because, like
the players are the game. And I've said this before
and the people have heard it, know what it's coming from.

Speaker 5 (36:14):
Like, ain't nobody buying tickets to watch executives make phone calls.
They're buying tickets to watch, you know, the incredible athletes
on the court or on the field compete and perform.
They they are they they are the most important piece
of this whole equation, and I think leagues and teams
can forget that sometimes. Who's actually the core of this

(36:36):
business and creating the product that people want to consume,
whether it's on the TV or in person, or merchandise
or whatever it might be.

Speaker 2 (36:43):
Who is the key to unlocking all this potential and
who's actually generating the revenue that's being created by basketball
or soccer.

Speaker 1 (36:49):
It's the players.

Speaker 2 (36:50):
It all comes back to the players, and for me,
I think until the league and the teams realize that
and understand the leverage they have in this moment, not
just at the bargaining table, but in the public eye
with fans, with brands, with anyone who's paying attention, this
is going to be a difficult conversation in a difficult fight.
Because the players know they're worth and from what I

(37:11):
can tell from the outside looking in, they're a lot
like the people we represent, which is they're not going
to back down. They know they're worth, and they know
where the line is, and they're going to hold firm.

Speaker 1 (37:20):
And they know the leverage that they have in this moment.

Speaker 4 (37:22):
Tory I love to just say ditto because none of
that needs to be corrected. But as Megan speaks and
speaks to it very well, the players are the foundation
of the league and until everyone realize, fans realize that
they're not buying tickets to see any sponsor on a

(37:42):
signboard like we or executives making phone calls, the same thing.
It is about the game. And I think when players
are starting to play this game, when they are at
age four, they will do whatever they can to make
sure that their careers are as long as they can be.
And also, I think the players of the w the

(38:05):
players in the NWSL know what their worth is and
will be the ones that are going to have to
stand up and fight for it, and I think they're
just asking everyone else to fully support that.

Speaker 1 (38:17):
Yeah, I think it's easy in the abstract to value
the players, but to understand how the decisions that you
make every day actually impact the length of their careers,
the safety of their careers, the desire they have to
continue playing, all that other stuff. I mean. The NWSL,
for instance, attendance is down this year. There are a
lot of factors in that, but a lot of that
is a lot of stars are out due to injury
due to pregnancy and other reasons. But you can actually

(38:41):
see what it means when the players that people want
to see aren't playing, and when you make decisions, whether
that's in investments in training facilities or physical therapy or otherwise,
that don't continue to see the players as the product
and the most important thing. You're ultimately potentially cutting short
their careers and the interest that people have in them
because you're not making sure that they're going to be

(39:01):
out there on the court. Aaron, how confident are you
that a deal is going to be done by the
October thirty one deadline?

Speaker 3 (39:09):
Unfortunately, I'm not confident, and I'll be honest with you.
The players opted out in October twenty first of twenty
twenty four, so we've had a year and it hasn't
gotten done, and it could have. It could have, but
we are going to continue. You know, the fight doesn't
end after October thirty one. I think there's a lot
out there that has not done the reader the best

(39:32):
job of explaining what happens when an agreement expires. We
will still be negotiating, and we will negotiate until the
players get what they are owed and what they deserve
and what they know is actually going to sustain this business,
not only for themselves and their legacy, but also for
all of the investment that has been made, because all
of that is at stake. But the players are resolute

(39:55):
and they do understand the power that they hold and
that they are not acting in isolation, you know, which
is why it was such a pleasure to do this
with you know, Ori and Megan, because this is not
an isolated event, and that's also why people are engaged
with it. Are are their imaginations are galvanized with it
because this isn't just about these players. It's not just

(40:17):
about basketball. It's about the value of women's work. And frankly,
I think is a is an incredible moment for unions
at a time when kind of history and education is
failing us to have a real, live example of what
happens when you stand in community and fight collectively for

(40:37):
something that you know is correct, not only business wise,
but in every other way as well.

Speaker 1 (40:44):
That's a word out for us, though, because to your point,
a lot of us sort of say, well, then the
deadline and then what happens is there an extension? When
do they do the expansion drafts. Is there a drop
dead date when teams need to know, you know, who
the who's on their roster and when players need to
know where they're playing, Like spell it out for us.
The agreement expires, then what.

Speaker 3 (41:03):
Yeah, the agreement expires and then potentially nothing right, the
world of options changes. That's the biggest thing for after
October thirty first. So right now in our CBA, there's
a no straight clause, there's a no lockout clause, so
that you know, in the broad category for that is
work stoppage. That just means that those things can happen.

(41:25):
It doesn't mean that they're going to happen. It just
means that they are not prevented from happening by a
very important legal document called collective margaining agreement. If neither
of those things happen, and it's a kind of a
very specific kind of legal process to get those things
to happen, As you said, extensions or another thing that

(41:47):
could happen, that's what happened in twenty twenty.

Speaker 1 (41:50):
Right.

Speaker 3 (41:51):
If that doesn't happen, you're still in this period of
status quo where you're negotiating and things essentially haven't changed.
I think it's a strategic calculation of what to do when,
and again I take my orders, I take my marching
orders from the players, and so that's where we're at.
So that that is what happens after October thirty one. Obviously,

(42:14):
I'm sure there will be and I hope people stay
engaged on this because we're not going anywhere.

Speaker 1 (42:18):
We're not going anywhere.

Speaker 3 (42:20):
In terms of next season, right free agency. As you
mentioned earlier, almost the entire league is in free agency,
and so it is. In a non CBA year, it
would have been a very busy off season and all
of that work still needs to get done. But you know,
there's there's a couple of things standing in front of that,

(42:42):
and obviously a CBA that is more appropriate for twenty
twenty six and beyond.

Speaker 1 (42:50):
Top on that list, it being October thirty first is
a little on the nose. You know, the Spooky Season,
the Witching Hour, all Hallowsy, the start, Yeah yeah, oh,
Scorpio season, throw.

Speaker 3 (43:03):
That in there, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (43:06):
I'm starting to remember the NBA Emoji gate where there
were all the free agents trapped and people were blocking
doors with chairs to keep guys from leaving and having
conversations with like it's going to be an absolute free
for all when fingers crossed, the deal gets done and
everyone starts to figure out the musical chairs of the
league and where they're going to find their spot. And

(43:28):
I'm excited for that, and I'm hopeful for that, which
would mean that we did get a deal done, the
players did get what they've earned and deserve, and we
can get back to being excited about the basketball. Y'all
are too smart for me and too impressive to keep
you any longer. Thank you so much for giving me
this time. Thank you so much for this great conversation.
I hope people got a lot out of it, because

(43:48):
I did.

Speaker 2 (43:49):
Thank you, Sarah.

Speaker 1 (43:49):
Thank you, Sarah.

Speaker 2 (43:50):
I appreciate you having us on.

Speaker 1 (43:54):
Thanks again to Meg and Tory and Aaron for taking
the time and hanging out with us. So much good
info in there. By the way, Megan mentioned the story
from The Guardian. This was just a couple of days ago.
If you want to check it out, it's called the
US's biggest pro women's sports unions have Found Strength Together.
It's by Abigail Siegel, and we'll link to that in
the show notes if you want to read it. We
got to take another break when we come back. No comment.

(44:15):
Apparently there's no such thing welcome back slices. We love
that you're listening, but we want you to get in
the game every day too, So here's our good game
play of the day. Follow both the NWSL and WNBA
players associations on social media. We'll link to their accounts
in the show notes, and follow Kristin Press on social

(44:36):
and maybe give a listen to the recap show her
podcast with her wife Tobin Heath. We'll link to both
in the show notes. We always love to hear from you,
so feel free to hit us up on email. Good
game at wondermedianetwork dot com and we'd love to hear
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(44:58):
comment section under Spotify podcast episodes rating infinity out of
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you can comment under podcast episodes on the Spotify app,
revealing a treasure trove of heretofore unseen and unread responses
from listeners. Oh joy, another place to be criticized on

(45:20):
the Internet. But wait, some of these are helpful, Amy
writes in response to our Pucks and gayshit marriage roundup
Love the Pod. I think Taylor Heisei and her BF
fellow Gopher athlete Parker Fox are recently engaged, not married.
Spot on correction, Amy, the wedding is actually next August
cute wedding website too, if you want to buy them

(45:41):
a blender or something. But damn now I'm seeing right
above Amy our underscore bat I swoops in with the
pain quote. Sarah's coverage of Caitlin is insane. She is
always pushing the most negative things about Caitlin herself and
holding no other players anywhere close to the same standards.
SI hold on, though there are some more good ones,

(46:04):
seeing some nice messages to Mesh for their last show.
So many kind comments from super Slice. Sarah Cazzelli MC's
Soca Links says quote, I just want to say thank
you for all your work, all three of you. Thanks
for finding such a beautiful balance of not too serious
but journalistic, playful but respectful, informative but never ever dull.
This pod and Big Citrus is a huge source of

(46:27):
my podcast joy ah oh, and I'm seeing a comment
from Amanda Spaceman, who logged on to write, quote, you
had me at lesbians. We're back baby. Now it's your turn.
Y'all rate and review. Thanks for listening. See you tomorrow
when we get into all the NWSL end of season
scenarios with Lori, Lindsey, Good Game, Megan and Tory. Good Game,

(46:51):
Aaron you realizing there are even more places on the
Internet where people hate me. Good Game with Sarah Spain
is an iHeart women's sports production in partnership with Deep
Blue Sports and Entertainment. You can find us on the
iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Production by Wonder Media Network, our producers are alex Azzie

(47:13):
Grace Lynch, Taylor Williamson, and Lucy Jones. Our executive producers
are Christina Everett, Jesse Katz, Jenny Kaplan and Emily Rutterer.
Our editors are Emily Rutterer, Britney Martinez and Gianna Palmer.
Production assistants from Avery Loftus and I'm your Host Sarah
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