December 19, 2025 • 46 mins
Former head of Turner Broadcasting, now co-CEO and Founder of Horizon Sports & Experiences David Levy joins Sarah to discuss this weekend’s Shark Beauty Women's Champions Classic, what he learned about buying and selling sports in his 33 years at Turner, his advice for decision-makers when it comes to the changing media landscape, and why the women’s sports bubble isn't about to burst any time soon. Plus, an icy reunion, rejecting the mechanism, and a new inductee to the Good Game Hall of Fame.
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- Learn more about the Shark Beauty Women's Champions Classic here
- Read about the WNBA strike authorization here
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Good Game with Sarah Spain, where we'd like
to thank unrivaled Vinyl BC for bringing to our attention
the All I Want for Christmas times Rich Baby Daddy Remix.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
I didn't know how.
Speaker 1 (00:09):
Much I needed to hear Sexy Red sing, Bend that
ass over, let that Kouci breathe over Mariah's angelic vocals.
It's Friday, December nineteenth, and on today's show, we'll be
chatting with former president of Turner, now the co CEO
and founder of Horizon Sports and Experiences, David Levy about
the upcoming Shark Beauty Women's Champions Classic, how the media
landscape has changed over the years when it comes to
(00:31):
women's sports and changing the minds of decision makers at
major networks.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
Plus, Portland makes a fire Pick and Icy.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
Reunion we can't wait to watch, and we welcome the
latest Donaree into the Good Game Hall of Fame. It's
all coming up right after this Welcome back slices. Here's
what you need to know today. Let's start with the
nwsl On Thursday, the NWSLPA rejected the so called the
(01:00):
high Impact Player roster mechanism that was proposed by the
nwsl board last week a mechanism that would have allowed
teams to spend up to a million dollars outside of
the salary cap on star players who meet certain criteria.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
They would be able to.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
Pay players like Trinity Rodman a bunch of money with
only part of those player salaries counting toward the cap. Now,
per the CBA, the provision needed to be approved by
the NWSLPA, and the union has rejected it, with executive
director Megan Burke stating quote, the league is trying to
control and interfere by trying to dictate which players get
paid what with this pot of funds. Our position is
(01:33):
that teams, gms, soccer ops. Business folks at the team
level are uniquely positioned to make judgment calls about how
to structure their rosters, how to negotiate deals end quote.
Burke also said quote, this is creating a whole new,
separate pot of funds which only a few players are
going to be able to access if they meet unilaterally
created criteria that, by the way, we believe, is ill
(01:54):
conceived end quote. Burke suggested that the league instead increase
the twenty twenty six salary cap by the amount proposed
for that high impact rule a million dollars, bringing the
salary cap to four point five million. Now, it's worth noting,
by the way that the high impact player provision would
uniquely benefit the very best of the best, while an
increased salary cap would allow for higher pay across a roster.
(02:16):
Friend of the show, ESPN reporter Jeff Casoof gave some
context to the discussion of payer play on x now
not specific to the NWSL, but I think his point
still stands. He wrote, quote, as we talk about the
top end of women's soccer players, another fief pro study
reminds us of the realities of global minimum standards. Sixty
six percent of players make less than twenty thousand dollars,
(02:37):
twenty five percent have outside jobs, thirty three percent have
a contract of less than a year, twenty two percent
have no contract end quote. In related NWSL news, the
deadline for the grievance filed by the PA on behalf
of Trinity Rodman has come and gone.
Speaker 3 (02:53):
Now.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
You may recall in a previous show I mentioned Wednesday
was the fourteen day deadline for the NWSL to either
sustain or deny the grievance. In writing, but like the
WNBA and their CBA negotiations. It appears the NWSL has
requested extra time on their test. Sources tell Jeff Kasoof
that both parties agreed to an extension for the league's response.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
No word yet on the length of that extension.
Speaker 1 (03:16):
Speaking of the WNBA and their CBA negotiations, the Players
Association announced on Thursday that its members have voted to
authorize a strike quote unquote, when necessary. Now this doesn't
mean the players will go on strike. It just authorizes
the option of a strike depending on how ongoing negotiations
continue to unfold. In a statement, the PA said, quote
through a decisive vote with historic participation, our membership has
(03:40):
authorized the wnbpa's executive committee to call a strike when necessary.
The player's decision is an unavoidable response to the state
of negotiations with the WNBA and its teams. Time and again,
the player's thoughtful and reasonable approach has been met by
the WNBA and its teams with a resistance to change
and a recommitment to the trect Konian provisions that have
(04:01):
unfairly restricted players for nearly three decades. The player's vote
is neither a call for an immediate strike nor an
intention to pursue one. Rather, it is an emphatic affirmation
of the player's confidence in their leadership and their unwavering
solidarity against ongoing efforts to divide, conquer, and undervalue them.
End quote, draconian provisions oof. The PA noted that ninety
(04:25):
three percent of eligible players participated in the vote, with
ninety eight percent of that group voting in favor of
authorizing a strike.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
And you could tell by the language used in.
Speaker 1 (04:34):
That statement that they want to make clear they are
not fatiguing in their efforts to get what they want
out of these negotiations. As for the league, they released
a statement in response that reads, in part quote, we
strongly disagree with the wnbpa's characterization of the current state
of negotiations, which fundamentally misrepresents the ongoing discussions taking place
at the bargaining table. It is difficult to understand claims
(04:56):
that the league is resistant to change, particularly given that
we are proposing numero CBA modifications, including significant immediate salary
increases and a new uncapped revenue sharing model that would
ensure continued salary growth tied to revenue growth. The league
remained steadfast in its commitment to reaching an agreement as
soon as possible and delivering a thirtieth season for the players, fans, teams,
(05:17):
and partners.
Speaker 2 (05:18):
End quote.
Speaker 1 (05:19):
More WNBA news Retired WNBA Hall of Famer Sylvia Fowls
is set to join the Portland Fire as an assistant
coach under Alex Sarama. This per report from ESPN, Fowls
played thirteen seasons in the WNBA before retiring in twenty
twenty two, with a jam packed resume two WNBA titles,
one MVP Honor, two WNBA Finals MVPs, and four Defensive
(05:41):
Player of the Year awards. Per ESPN's report, Fowls had
multiple coaching opportunities, but decided that the Fire was the
best fit for her to college volleyball. We're recording this
ahead of Thursday night semi finals, so we're not yet
sure who's going to make it to Sunday's championship match,
but regardless of the competitors, we're certainly going to be watching.
That match begins at three thirty pm Eastern on ABC,
(06:02):
and for the first time, ABC will also air a
dedicated thirty minute preview show ahead of the championships first
serve that'll begin at three pm Eastern to college hoops.
We've got back to back top twenty five matchups on
Saturday thanks to the Shark Beauty Women's champions Classic at
the Barclay Center in Brooklyn, airing live on Fox. It's
a great excuse to turn watching basketball into brunch. The
(06:23):
first game between number seventeen Tennessee and number sixteen Louisville
tips off at eleven am Eastern. Then at one thirty
Eastern it's number one Yukon against number eleven Iowa.
Speaker 2 (06:32):
Automnless Mimosas and basketball. Yes please, We'll have.
Speaker 1 (06:36):
More on those games later in the show with David
to the PWHL. Top ranked Boston defeated the New York
Sirens two nothing Wednesday night to extend their unbeaten streak
to start the season to five five and zero, is
the team's best start yet. Goalkeeper Aaron Frankel posted her
third shot out of the season, turning away a season
high thirty three shots. With the win, the Fleet extend
(06:56):
their lead atop the PWHL standings, sitting at fifteen points
as of Thursday, with the next closest team at eight
and here I was worried the Fleet were thrown away
their future not protecting Captain America Hillary Night in the
expansion draft. But I guess they knew what they were
doing in that Fleet front office. Speaking of the Fleet
and Hillary Night, on Sunday, Boston faces off against Hillary
(07:17):
and her new team, the Seattle Torrent for the first
time this season. That's a five pm Eastern puck drop
at Climate Pledgerina in Seattle. The Fleet have another game
before that one, though, as they put their unbeaten streak
on the line against the Minnesota Frost tonight in Saint
Paul and eight pm Eastern puck drop. Two days later.
The Frost will be in my backyard taking on the
Ottawa Charge in a Takeover Tour game at All State
(07:38):
Arena in Rosemont, Illinois, just outside Chicago, and.
Speaker 2 (07:42):
I will be doing the ceremonial puck drop.
Speaker 1 (07:44):
I can't wait to welcome the PWHL to my city
and hopefully a big, rowdy crowd will be there to
help convince them that Chicago deserves its own team. Fingers crossed,
I don't slip on the ice and end up ass
over titties in front of.
Speaker 2 (07:56):
All of my hockey heroes.
Speaker 1 (07:57):
By the way, in case you don't remember from last season.
The take Over Tours a series of neutral site games
where PWHL teams face off in markets that don't have
home squads.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
Last year's Takeover Tour saw.
Speaker 1 (08:08):
Over one hundred and twenty three thousand fans attend games
across North America, and this year it's off to a
hot start with the first stop Wednesday night in Halifax,
seeing a sellout crowd at Scotiabank Center showing up and
showing out. They watched the Montreal Victoire defeat the Toronto
Scepters in a two to one shootout victory. We got
to take a quick break slices when we come back.
(08:29):
It's David Levy.
Speaker 2 (08:36):
Joining us now.
Speaker 1 (08:37):
He's the former president of Turner Broadcasting and current CEO
and founder of Horizon Sports and Experiences. A native of
White Plains, New York, where he grew up playing soccer
in ice hockey, he went to Syracuse and then followed
in his father's footsteps getting into the TV business. In
thirty plus years at Turner, he worked in international business,
then turned to sport, helping bring the NBA and March
Madness to Turner properties like TNT and TBS and negotiating
(09:00):
it deals with countless other sports leagues. Inducted into the
Sports Broadcasting Hall of Fame in the Management category this year.
He grew up watching Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous,
and now he's got Shaq and Charles Barkley on speed dial.
Speaker 2 (09:10):
It's David Levy.
Speaker 4 (09:11):
Hi, David, Hey, Sar Hi you doing that was a
great introduction. I don't know who that guy is, but
he sounds pretty interesting.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
Yeah, well, well we hope, so we're going to find
out together here. Your dad worked on some classic shows,
Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous and Solid Gold, the
Solid Gold Dancers, like what a child did? Did you
get to go to set?
Speaker 2 (09:27):
Ever?
Speaker 4 (09:28):
I didn't get to go to set, but you know,
you know, in the old days when you did syndication,
your dad used to have to travel from market to
market to sell it to local station to local station.
So I got to see because I went to Syracuse undergrad,
and you know, when he came up to the Syracuse market,
he would show me all these new shows, and I
got to see all these new great television shows before
(09:50):
they actually aired on air. So it was a fun time.
Speaker 2 (09:53):
I never I say am too young for solid gold.
Speaker 1 (09:55):
But I definitely watched them Lifestyles of the Rich and
Famous back when I was a kid.
Speaker 4 (09:59):
Yes, yes, yeah, good shows, good shows.
Speaker 2 (10:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:02):
I want to actually go back to your time at
Turner in a little bit and how you've seen the
media landscape change when it comes to women's sports. But
I want to start with this weekend because you're joining
us ahead of the Sharp Beauty Women's champions Classic, co
organized by your company, Horizon Sports and Experiences.
Speaker 2 (10:18):
So tell me about this event and why you got
involved with it.
Speaker 4 (10:21):
You know HSNE and we started this company Chris Wild,
myself who's my partner, and our third is Bill Koheningsberg.
We thought about where we could end up in some
white space, where were there opportunities for a new sports
marketing company to join into this incredible fray of great
agencies out there. And one of the spaces that we
thought that no one was really paying much attention to
was women's sports. And so we set out to figure
(10:44):
out a way to how do we invest in women's sports,
How do we put our money where our mouth is
and where are the opportunities? And it was apparent to
me based on my years at working at Turner and
knowing what was happening in the basketball space, there really
wasn't any early season women's regular season tournament. There was
the Mali Classic for men, there was Atlantis, there was
all these great men early season tournaments, but there weren't
(11:07):
for women. And so we set out with our partners
at Fox and called Gino. Because if you're going to
start a tour, you know anything about women's sports, and
you know about basketball and college basketball, there's no better
franchise or dominant brand than Yukon. And so we were
going to really set ourselves as set apart. We had
(11:28):
to get them locked in. And so I called Gino
and talked about this idea, and I said, this could
really be a destination for you. This could be your
legacy if we can create this incredible early season tournament.
And I'm willing to do what I have to do.
And he was immediately responsive as yes. He said, listen,
we have to keep this in New York because that's
the mecha of basketball. He said, we need to do
(11:51):
this on an NBA court because a lot of these
women athletes will never have the opportunity to play on
an NBA court, and so let's make this something really
really special. Let's do it to New York. Fox committed
to putting it on the Fox broadcasting network, not there,
you know, not a cable network, so it really gave
it the power and so forth. And you know, this
(12:11):
year is our second year. We had Yukon, Tennessee, Louisville,
and Iowa play in the first year, and they all
came back for year two. We're changing the lineup a
little bit for year three. I can't talk about it,
but we're very, very excited. They're always going to be
big brands and big names. And so here we are Saturday,
(12:31):
getting ready for incredible games, and every one of the
four teams are in the top twenty.
Speaker 2 (12:36):
Yeah, and that's what I was gonna say.
Speaker 1 (12:37):
I love to see these matchups because sometimes we're waiting
a really long time. If they happen to play in
a conference with other ranked teams, we'll get to see
it during conference play. But some of these teams could
skate until the tournament, and we're really wondering what they
would look like against some of the best. I mean,
LSU started out the season with eight straight games, scoring
over one hundred points a game, but they hadn't played
anyone in the top two hundred and fifty, right, And
(13:00):
so these tournaments are a great way to incentivize matchups
with teams that have a high ranking and getting us
to get to see for more of the season the
top players playing against each other. You know, women's college
hoops is a massive seller, in some cases, drawing more
eyeballs than the men, more storylines to follow year after
year because they don't have the one and dones of
the men's game. How high is the ceiling for the
(13:22):
women's college basketball product in your opinion?
Speaker 4 (13:25):
In my lifetime, I never would have ever thought that
a final four in women's college basketball would out deliver
the men's and you know, two years ago it happened.
I don't think anybody would have bet that in the
history of anybody in this business. So the ceiling has
continued to be opportunity. I mean, it's all in my opinion,
(13:45):
stems back to if you want to go way way
back to Title nine. When Title nine was instituted, I
think that's when women were able to get better coached,
play longer, have more opportunities. And I think you're starting
to see that even all the way up to the WNBA,
where you know there's ability to expand in teams. Now,
I mean, the quality of the game is getting better
(14:06):
and better. And it used to be there was five, six,
seven great women's basketball players, and now you know you're
probably fifty to seventy deep of really quality play. Yeah,
and that's what makes it interesting.
Speaker 1 (14:18):
I agree with that, but I'm going to push back
a little bit and say a lot of times the
product or the quality of play is pointed to, but
it's actually just a lack of investment and awareness from folks.
If you talk to people like Sue Bird, she says, yes,
the general basement is higher. Everybody is better because there
are more opportunities to play at the youth level, AAU
(14:39):
college is better funded, there's more opportunities at the pro level.
There's reason to keep playing. But you go back to
the early days of the w and there were a
ton of incredibly talented players, just wasn't always an awareness
of them, or a marketing of them, or.
Speaker 2 (14:53):
An ability to see them.
Speaker 1 (14:54):
I agree with you in part I do think the
product is always evolving in getting better.
Speaker 2 (14:58):
We see that in every single.
Speaker 1 (14:59):
Sport, but I think women's sports in particular we tend
to prioritize the now over the quality of the past,
when it's really just about the structural and institutional problems
that women's sports face more than it is the product
that was the problem.
Speaker 4 (15:11):
Yeah, I'm not going to argue that, but I would
say probably a little bit of both. Yeah, And you know,
there's no one hundred percent right answer, But all I
would say is this isn't a moment. This is a movement,
and it's moving fast, and the opportunities are continued to
continue to grow. I mean, you're seeing Unrivaled another league start.
You may even see a third league with Project B
that's sort of circling around and being talked about. If
(15:34):
you didn't have the deep wide talent that I think
there is today, these leads couldn't couldn't exist.
Speaker 1 (15:40):
Yeah, for sure, I want to get back to Unrivaled
because that's one of the things your company is working with.
But I want to go to Turner because you spent
thirty three years there. You started in sports sales, then
you got taped to run ad sales for international business,
so you went SVP EVP President of International ad Sales,
co CEO of Turner International, and then you get back
to your sports routes, you take over Turner Sports in.
Speaker 2 (15:59):
Two thousand three.
Speaker 1 (16:00):
Take us back to three, because I know you're negotiating
so many different rights deals for so many different properties,
and at the time you're a wash in things like NFL, NBA,
March Madness, all the other things. What was the view
of women's sports at the time, tell us, honestly, interest
in them, desire to acquire them, belief in their success
if you aired them.
Speaker 4 (16:20):
None. Yeah, I mean, it wasn't even on the radar.
And not to say, you know, again, look at where
we are today. There are far many different leagues. I mean,
you know, NWSL was not I don't even think it
was in existing existence. Okay, So there wasn't a lot
to really talk about. There was NCAA women's college basketball
and we had assigned a new deal in two thousand.
(16:41):
We weren't even in college sports really until twenty eleven
with our deal with CBS, and the WNBA was around,
but it was attached really to ESPN and really wasn't
making much noise whatsoever. So if you're asking me back
in two thousand and three, it really wasn't even on
the map.
Speaker 1 (16:58):
Yeah, and that's what sore re markable is for people
to understand that, of course women's sport has been in existence,
but professional leagues with really secure investment and a solid
foundation for growth and further investment have not been around
for that long. So they're still quite nascent. So the
growth that we're seeing, the rocket ship growth of late,
is really impressive for these leagues that are just getting started.
(17:20):
I want to talk about the women's versus men's March
badness because you negotiate it the men's NCAA basketball deal
for Turner and CBS. It was extended in twenty sixteen,
now running through twenty thirty two at over a billion
dollars a year for.
Speaker 2 (17:32):
The men's rights package.
Speaker 1 (17:34):
So I'd love your perspective on the women's side, because
after being called out for undervaluing and not properly supporting
the women's tournament, the NCAA had to act and last
year they announced an eight year, nine hundred and twenty
million dollar media rights agreement with the ESPN. This sounds great,
except the kicker is it's forty championships bundled together through
twenty thirty two, including the women's basketball tournament. Now, if
(17:56):
women's basketball is not sold on its own, How can
it prove it's offitability? How can it put to rest
the bullshit claims that the championship loses money annually when
an independent investigation in twenty twenty two said its value
is somewhere between eighty one and one hundred and twelve
million dollars. There's a big difference between loses money every year.
Let's keep not investing and pretend that it's a money
(18:16):
loser versus eighty two, one hundred and twelve million dollars.
Is this malpractice from the NC DOUBLEA that they continue
to fold these women's rights in with other things instead
of letting it standalone and see what it can pull.
Speaker 4 (18:27):
I can't speak for the negotiation. I wasn't involved with
it at all. I think the women's got a huge
increase from what it was, and you know everybody's going
to say, well, can it go higher? No one knows,
you know, the opportunities may or may not have existed.
I don't know, But what I will say is the
NC DOUBLEA has a bunch of championships that need exposure
and need opportunity, and sometimes you bundle things and sometimes
(18:51):
you separate things out. I don't think it's malpractice. I
think that was a very strong statement. But I wasn't
involved in the negotiats. I can't really speak to it,
but I do know a lot of new dollars came in.
I do know there's great exposure for March Madness, for
women's March Madness. I know that they now moved the
event to the same weekend as the men, which I
(19:12):
think that's a nice leverage point for both sides. They
can now market against with each other, and so there
was a lot of positive movement on it.
Speaker 1 (19:19):
Yeah, it was a massive increase from what it was before.
It had not been materially renegotiated in like thirty years.
It was a ridiculous thing that they essentially ignored year
after year. And that's how baked in the misogyny was
that they were willing to pass up millions and millions
and millions of dollars because they were so antiquated in
their idea of what it could do. And the reason
(19:40):
I say malpractice, and the reason I guess I'm frustrated
is because, yes, of course we love to see other
NCAA championships make money and thrive, but it's always the
women who are expected to do the good thing and
to help something else, as opposed to understanding the potential
negatives and drawbacks to it constantly being bundled where you
can can really fudge some numbers if you don't want
(20:02):
to end up acknowledging its real value.
Speaker 4 (20:05):
You know, yeah, I mean, listen, we can state a
lot of facts, and all the facts right now are
pointing upwards to women's sports, right. I mean, my understanding
is going to be close to two billion dollars that
are done in global women's revenue right now in twenty
twenty five, which is, you know, a two hundred and
forty percent increase.
Speaker 2 (20:24):
Huge.
Speaker 4 (20:24):
It's huge, and it's only going to go upwards, right.
I mean the ROI you know, if I'm sitting in
my old seat at Turner, or I'm sitting over at
David Burtson's seed at CPS, or sitting over like people,
You're not doing this as a favor. You're doing this
because it's a real ROI the real return on women's
sports right now, the ratings are growing, the interest is growing,
(20:48):
the brands are shifting dollars. I mean, at hs ANDE,
you know, our big focus was getting these brands who
normally would be doing red carpets at the Grammys and
themes and so forth. But Sophora became a huge sponsor.
A Sharp Beauty is our title sponsor, our title sponsor
for the Women's Champions Classic.
Speaker 2 (21:07):
It just makes sense too.
Speaker 1 (21:08):
It's such an interesting thing of how those were sort
of parallel lines that weren't intersecting, and then we all say, oh,
actually you can do both.
Speaker 2 (21:14):
You could be a woman in sports and care about beauty.
Speaker 4 (21:17):
But for all the reasons that you were concerned about.
They didn't think there was going to be an ROI
on it either. They thought it was better to be
on the red carpet for the grandees than to own
a piece of sport mark. So even the brands weren't convinced.
Speaker 1 (21:29):
So much of the research that came into helping the
brands understand the potential was necessary, and a lot of
companies weren't looking into and digging into the brand affinity
that sports fans have when you align with the leagues.
They care about the relatability of female athletes, where you say, oh,
I just saw her play two hours and she still
looks good, So I believe that more than this influencer
over here that I think spent three hours getting ready
(21:49):
and I don't know if it's going to last and
the look's going to still be good. So there is
it feels inevitable once it happens, and in the lead
up there is a lot And that's why I'm so
glad that with your new company, you're someone who brings
these thirty plus years of experiences negotiating. The reason I
asked about the women's deal, I know you didn't negotiate,
but because you were in the room every single year
working on those massive deals on the men's side, so
(22:10):
to understand the arguments that go into getting what you
want out of those deals.
Speaker 2 (22:14):
Those same people.
Speaker 1 (22:15):
Need to be bringing that experience in that fight to
the growth for women's sports, because it is happening so exponentially.
Each deal can look very stale shortly after you make
it if you don't have an innovative spirit and a
real mind to the growth that could happen in the
coming years.
Speaker 3 (22:30):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (22:30):
I mean when I helped with unrivaled media package that
is exclusive on T and T Sports, and you know
they spent one hundred million dollars over six years that
you know is a big, big number for a new league,
And to be honest with you, I think when you
(22:51):
go back and look at it six years from now,
that would be a steal because I think this, I
think that league is going to continue to grow. But
remember all these leagues are so new. I mean, I
always go back because I know you're you know, you
seem frustrated on certain levels. But remember but remember the
WNBA is only twenty eight years old. Yeah right. There
are hockey teams that are in their one hundredth anniversary,
(23:13):
and football and it's one hundredth anniversary, and yeah, and acmespan.
Speaker 2 (23:16):
We can go one hundred and eight years between winning.
Speaker 4 (23:19):
Right, But I'm saying those I bet you in the
first twenty eight years they weren't making money either.
Speaker 2 (23:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:24):
Well, but that's the that's the frustration stems from people
getting in the way of growth, not from where the
growth is right now. It's that I think it could
be even further if people were willing to go back
and look at those men's leagues and the place that
they were instead of constantly trying to compare where they
are now with a hundred to start.
Speaker 4 (23:41):
That's my point, My point is, you know year twenty
eight through year for the next year fifty of the WNBA,
I think you're going to see astounding numbers right as
just like you did with the NFL. I mean, prior
to nineteen seventy eighties, they weren't doing that well. Franchise
values weren't that good. You could buy teams for nothing.
So you know, I think it's moving an enormously fast
(24:04):
paced right now. There is some frustrations from the past,
but I think you're going to see tremendous with brands
are shifting dollars, sponsors understand, the ROI media companies are
investing in women's sports now buying properties that they normally
wouldn't have done in the past. You know, we're at
this inflection point, yeah, where I think you're going to
see tremendous growth, even though you've already seen it in
(24:25):
the last two years.
Speaker 1 (24:26):
I want to get to some of the stuff Horizons doing.
But I wanted to ask you quickly because you know,
at and T acquired Time Warner including Turner in twenty nineteen,
you chose to move on, and I just want to
know how you felt in that moment in this business
and in so many businesses. I guess there is a
real fear of leaving behind the thing. You know, thirty
three years in one spot, what was the dominant emotion fear, panic, excitement?
Speaker 4 (24:48):
You know. My son I was inducted, as you mentioned earlier,
the Sports Broadcasting Hall of Fame a couple of days ago,
and I had my family with me, and both my
sons said to me, you know, you're like unicorn. No
one spends thirty three years at any.
Speaker 3 (25:02):
Company, you know, And I didn't, you know, if you
think about it, I didn't really think of it that
way because I probably had twenty six different jobs while
I was at one company, whether it was internationally.
Speaker 4 (25:13):
You re reeled off a few of them in the beginning,
so it didn't feel like I was in the same job.
I was in many different jobs in the same company
for thirty three years. But when I left, you know,
it was just time. When Turner was bought by Time
Warner in nineteen ninety, I guess it was six. I
went through that merger. I went through the AOL merger
(25:33):
in two thousand and two. I went through the AOL
being kicked out. I went through the AT and T merger,
so you know, you go through a line offer mergers. Yeah,
so many different mergers. It was time thirty three years
at one company. John Stanky had a different vision and
how he wanted to take the company. You know, I'm
about saying we weren't aligned on certain things. We certainly were,
(25:54):
but there were things that just didn't excite me anymore.
And I'm glad I did because HS and E is
a great organization. My partner Chris and I are loving
to grow this agency. We're focused on really some key
assets and some key genres and it's been a great
ride for three years.
Speaker 1 (26:11):
I mean, I love someone with your experience coming into
the space and saying there is a white space here,
there is an opportunity to do stuff that hasn't been
done before and to bring the level of professionalism and
investment that you brought to other stuff to it.
Speaker 2 (26:22):
You mentioned unrivaled.
Speaker 1 (26:23):
You've invested in and sold sponsorship and media rights for it.
Also for World seven's football seven v seven women's soccer league,
which debuted in May. We just saw a really super
successful event down in Fort Lock.
Speaker 2 (26:34):
I believe so much fun, Holy.
Speaker 1 (26:35):
Cal You could tell everyone there was having the time
of their lives.
Speaker 4 (26:39):
I will tell you that event. It was spectacular. You know,
to me, I look at a couple things. If the
product on the floor is good, that's the most important thing.
You got to have quality product on the floor. On
rival had quality product. Those women were hustling and winning,
and that's what you saw in World seven The second
thing is the names on the back of the jersey.
(27:00):
I am I introducing new names or do people know
and recognize these names? And then obviously unrivaled. You have
the top WNBB players in the world, not just then WNBA,
but world players playing and in World Sevens you have
the top clubs in the world playing in these events.
So you got the names on the back of the jerseys,
you got the product on the floor. Those are the
(27:20):
two most part. And then they're actually playing for real money.
So you know there was a five million dollar guyze
pool for World Sevens and these women. You know that
the champions, the San Diego NWSL team, they won two
million dollars.
Speaker 2 (27:34):
Yeah, okay, not to over a weekend for hanging in Florida.
Speaker 4 (27:38):
Yeah. And I love the short field. I love the
no off sides. I liked the different rules. It was
fast paced, our games, and in this day in worlds
with a tension span, sometimes you kind of need that
kind of product so well.
Speaker 1 (27:50):
And that's one really cool thing about women's sports is
the door has opened because we know enough of the
players now from watching NWSL and watching WNBA that we
want to see them in these other You couldn't really
do these all star opportunities quite the same way before.
To your point, previously when you didn't know that many
of the names, they didn't know that many players. So
I want to know how you found working in the
women's sports space different from your years focused on the men,
(28:12):
because one thing that we talk about on this show
is that if you have let's say, an in house
marketing team or sponsorship team, and they try to walk
into these meetings and handle them exactly the same way
they do dealing with men's established one hundred year old leagues,
they'll fall flat if they want to try to promise
the same exact kind of ROI or offer up the
(28:33):
same potential benefits to a deal.
Speaker 2 (28:36):
How have you learned on the fly very quickly.
Speaker 1 (28:39):
That you're going to want to promise something different and
aim for something different when it comes to partnering with
women's leagues.
Speaker 4 (28:45):
The few things that I think stand out in women's
leagues and women's sports in general and women athletes. First
of all, social media. These women have fans that follow
them prior to even doing anything, right, I mean, they
have their own following, their own own voice, their own
situation where they're doing podcasts, where they're doing influencer creativity,
(29:05):
and they love doing it. They earn their dollars for it, right.
Speaker 2 (29:09):
Yeah, that's where most of the money comes from for women.
Speaker 4 (29:11):
Out exactly exactly, And so that in itself, brands love that,
that whole opportunity to work with the athlete where you
probably don't have that. The top fifty athletes in NWSL
or in the WNBA are probably doing much more on
a social creative level than the top fifty men. Okay, sure,
and I know that for a fact, So it's not
(29:33):
like even a question in my mind. So the first
thing is there's social access, there's social followers. All of
that is exciting when you start working with the women's league.
The second thing is is the barrier of entry where
you have these established CPMs and sponsorship levels that have
in order to activate, you have to be here here
here and here. A lot of these leagues don't have
(29:54):
any barriers right now, and so you can get in
at a very very I'm not going to say cheap,
because nothing's cheap, but I would say more a better
ROI than you could with some of the men's leagues,
and the opportunities because there's you're not blocked out either,
Like you try to go in and get insurance company, well,
all State has that or State Farm has that. So
(30:15):
the exclusivities sometimes blocked.
Speaker 1 (30:18):
There's like an official bread of the NFL, right, they've
got an official everything at this point.
Speaker 4 (30:22):
And and right now you know, like you know the
you know, glam room is you know, you know it's
not available right now on arrival, but it could be
available for something else. So so there's just ways for
you know, whether it's beauty products, whether it's insurance companies,
automotive and now you're starting to see some ratings that
are very comparatible to men and what no one's really
(30:44):
talking about, and I think this is very key sports betting.
People are starting to bet on women's sports. And when
you bet on a sport, you're more engaged. And when
you're more engaged, guess what happens. Ratings grow, Yep, you
watch more more.
Speaker 1 (30:59):
Taking the content at the shoulder, programming, all the other
things that are part of the ecosystem.
Speaker 4 (31:03):
You bet, you bet on a sport, you're ninety five
percent more likely to watch. Yeah, right, Yeah, So all
these things are factoring in. And so I think the
barrier of entry the ability to get in and get
in at a reasonable level, and then watch it grow
because I think if you invest now, it's only going
to get better.
Speaker 2 (31:22):
Yeah, And David, you know, it's interesting.
Speaker 1 (31:23):
I remember being at ESPN years ago and there would
be these big, all hands on deck meetings talking about
various like big endeavors that the company was undertaking, or
ratings across certain things, and they would always have the
man eighteen to forty nine and that would be the
only group that they would even talk about. And one
of the things that's fascinating to me is like the
old adage of bitches be shopping is accurate and more
(31:46):
so than ever. And if you look at projections, women
are expected to have seventy five percent of household perse
control within the next couple of years like we have,
and are spending the money and we influence the buying
decisions of our children, of our partners. It's kind of
wild to me how we are still so antiquated in
our understanding of where the influences in terms of spending,
(32:08):
and we kind of make fun of it and then
don't realize that putting our marketing and sponsorship dollars behind
it would actually benefit our companies.
Speaker 4 (32:15):
Yeah, you know, listen, there's facts and then there's realism, right,
I mean, you know, I also know that you know,
sixty seven percent of the you know, active support sponsors
that are in women's sports actually buy the products. That's
the other thing they actually support. If you're sponsoring a
women's team or a women's league, you're sixty seven percent
of people would want to use that product, right, So
(32:35):
not only are they sponding, but they actually support. So
you're right. I know that for my household, I mean
my wife, my wife's controls pretty much the purses.
Speaker 2 (32:44):
But it was it was did you buy anything you're wearing?
Speaker 4 (32:47):
To know? Da are you kidding me? So listen, this
is why this is a movement. Now. It's if you're
living under a rock, if you don't understand the value,
what's happening, the opportunity is the barrier of entry to
get in all of that. I mean, you know, as
I said, my agency is putting their money. We're invested
in unrivaled We do unrivaled sponsorship sales. We did, you know,
(33:10):
close to over twenty million dollars in sponsorship sales for
a new league World Sevens. We handled their media rights
as well. There's sponsorships. We're involved in the WCC, the
Women's Champion. So it's continuing. I haven't made an announcement yet,
but where we are going to get into the podcasting
business with a Partnerland. So we're excited about that because
(33:32):
and it's going to be women focused, So hopefully we'll
be competing with you and you're a great podcast. Bring
it on, David, We're bringing it on. But you have
to be involved in these in these different businesses and
these different platforms because that's where A the viewers are going,
B the brands dollars are going.
Speaker 2 (33:50):
Yeah, a couple more questions for you.
Speaker 1 (33:51):
You know, some people are wondering whether women's sports is
a bubble that's going to burst, but investment across multiple leagues,
increased attendance, in viewership, incredible demand for more merch and content,
things that have been lagging for so long that they're
finally catching up on It sure.
Speaker 2 (34:05):
Feels like it'll last. How do you see the.
Speaker 1 (34:07):
Growth potential for women's sports, and how do you think
the fragmented media landscape and the digital opportunities that mean
it doesn't always have to compete for linear television space
will allow for that growth to not.
Speaker 2 (34:18):
Be stunted by a competition with what already exists.
Speaker 4 (34:21):
First of all, they've been talking about the bubble bursting
in sports for I don't know forty years since I've
been in this business, and every time I've been on
any panel, I always say, I don't see a bubble bursting.
You know, sports is the last appointment viewing on television.
Speaker 2 (34:37):
Launch it live watching my friends.
Speaker 4 (34:39):
My line. I've said for my tire careers. Nobody watches
the super Bowl on Monday. You know, don't tell me
the score. I don't want to know. Sports is also
the ultimate drama. You don't know the outcomes. So when
you have ultimate drama appointment viewing, I don't see a
bubble bursting. Now Here's what I think is interesting. I
do believe that the actual television itself just because of
(35:04):
where subscribers are growing and so forth. It's getting old,
so you know, it's skewing. Oh, you know the fifty
plus if you have a cable box or broadcast television
and so forth. I do believe that there are numerous
opportunities with these ad supported destination digital platforms, and I
think that's going to continue to grow and give real opportunity.
(35:25):
And we just saw yesterday that YouTube went out and
got the Academy Awards, and you know, I think that's
going to be very successful. My two boys, one thirty
three and one twenty nine, haven't turned on a TV
in ten years. That doesn't mean they don't watch content.
That don't but they're just watching it very differently. And
(35:45):
I will tell you this from an advertising and brand perspective,
you'd rather have it be on a streaming service or
a digital platform because you can target market better. You
can actually have much more target marketing and an ROI
for your right.
Speaker 2 (36:01):
All those cookies we have to agree to.
Speaker 1 (36:03):
Yes, Well, tell the folks who are trying to get
to us exactly what we're watching.
Speaker 2 (36:07):
For how long and what we like? Yeah, but you
know we're not watching.
Speaker 4 (36:10):
Yeah, but you can you know, but you also can
sell that commercial to a million different people, right.
Speaker 1 (36:14):
And now we're seeing the interactive opportunities, whether that's the
live watching via Twitch or whether it's literally click a
button in the middle of what you're watching to buy
the thing that you just saw.
Speaker 2 (36:22):
Like, that's going to keep expanding and growing too.
Speaker 4 (36:24):
And let's not talk about also AI. I mean, you're
going to be able to watch let's say I want
to watch an NBA game or a w NBA game
with Kevin Hart's voicing it. I could probably watch the
whole game with him announcing it. Right, They're just going
to be different, different opportunities continue.
Speaker 2 (36:39):
They're going to move to a farm before we get
to that. I don't know.
Speaker 1 (36:42):
I think I'm one of those old people that's like
too much change all at once, make it stop.
Speaker 4 (36:46):
Well, here's the one thing that's going to happen. They'll
always be what you liked and what you remember. There's
just going to be additional options.
Speaker 2 (36:54):
Yeah, I want to quickly ask you.
Speaker 1 (36:56):
You know, we joke on this show about how women's
sports is talked about and can that are to beat
even though it's countless leagues and sports like we're in
charge of covering all the things. And then there's other
shows that are just the NBA or just the NFL,
but women's sports is the beat. How do you think
discussing and doing business in bulk as quote unquote women's
sports either helps or hurts the properties in the mix?
Speaker 4 (37:17):
You know, that's a great question. I think it's going
to be less and less about women's sports and more
and more about property by property, because I don't think
every property is going to be successful, Like there's not
every property in men's sports are going to be successful.
I think it's going to go back to the quality
of the product on the field, the names on the
back of the jerseys, and the fan bases. And so
(37:39):
there are some sports I mean, I'm I'm very bullish
on women's volleyball, although I will tell you I don't
think I think there's too many.
Speaker 2 (37:47):
Leagues one thousand percent, So don't I.
Speaker 4 (37:49):
Think there's going to be consolidation there. But there are
certain sports. I think I think women's lacrosse is going
to have some surgeons, but how much. I mean, where's
men's across today versus everything else?
Speaker 2 (38:00):
So the sport itself is not America's go.
Speaker 4 (38:02):
To but but I do think there's going to be opportunity.
So you know, there are some and then there's I
even think women's hockey, you know, ice skating is going to.
Speaker 1 (38:10):
Have PWHL has been growing exponentially and they hope to
have four more teams by next year, which would be
really a ton of expansion in a short time.
Speaker 4 (38:19):
And they're doing a great job marketing it, and they're
understanding that you know, Canada is important, right, yes, you know,
because you know that's where hockey came from, but they
also know where to kind of go in and do
a one town exposure for the league.
Speaker 2 (38:33):
Yeah, the Takeover Tour coming to Chicago this weekend.
Speaker 4 (38:36):
So I just like the way they think and how
they're and how they're positioning themselves in the marketplace. So
I do believe sport by sport. I think grouping at
all women's sports. You needed that ten years ago, you
probably don't need that, you know, I think it'll become
less and less important.
Speaker 1 (38:50):
All right, last question for you probably might have gotten
to this place anyway if you were still at Turner,
but maybe not because your knee deep and all the
other existing rights.
Speaker 4 (38:58):
Packages definitely would have been I don't want to cut
you off, but we would have been. We would have
definitely been in women's sports.
Speaker 1 (39:03):
You would have Okay, Well, what do you tell the
decision makers that are at big networks or legacy brands,
who are maybe still using antiquated data sets, maybe operating
using old fashioned ideas about demand and interest for women's sports,
maybe even just their sales team has been doing the
same thing for decades and isn't up to date. What
would you tell them about what you're seeing in this
space and the opportunity there.
Speaker 4 (39:24):
I would tell them that, you know, brands are shifting
their dollars and moving towards women's sports. I think they
all know that. You know, you're starting to see the
number of hours. I mean, I think it was like
four percent of all programming was on women's sports. It's
now close to fifteen. You know, you're seeing a rise
just in the number of hours on television and on
(39:46):
cable and other other distribution platforms. So I think that's
going to continue to arise. So I think it's going
to happen almost naturally. I mean, the antiquated we only
buy men's sports. I don't think there's a brand or
a network or a distribution outlet that's saying that it's
almost impossible not to understand what's happening.
Speaker 1 (40:06):
Well, I hope some of them are listening. I guarantee
some of them still are.
Speaker 2 (40:11):
Thank you so much for the time, David.
Speaker 1 (40:12):
It was great to talk to you, all right, sir,
thank you. Thanks again to David for taking the time.
Speaker 2 (40:18):
We got to take another break when we come back.
Speaker 1 (40:20):
It's time to engrave a new plaque to hang in
the Good Game Hall of Fame.
Speaker 2 (40:30):
Welcome back, slices.
Speaker 1 (40:32):
It's been a while, so we thought it was time
to enter someone else into the Good Game Hall of Fame.
Speaker 2 (40:39):
Ah. Yes, the Good Game Hall of.
Speaker 1 (40:40):
Fame, where we celebrate women's sports lore, the kind of
legendary stories we should all know by heart, just like
we know the stories of men's sports. We all remember
the time Chicago Bulls great Dennis Rodman wore a wedding
dress and married himself. And we're never surprised when Detroit
Red Wings fans throw a dead octopus on the ice.
That tradition began because it used to take eight victory
to win the Stanley Cup. But when it comes to
(41:02):
women's sports, we've got some catching up to do. So
many great stories passed in presence still untold. So grab
another plaque and find a good place on the wall,
because today we've got another inductee. Now, this one isn't
wacky and wild like a one man wedding. It's more aspirational,
the kind of story Sports Center would spend a whole
segment on if an NBA player did it. It's the
(41:23):
incredible story of Veronica Burton's twenty twenty five season.
Speaker 2 (41:26):
Now.
Speaker 1 (41:26):
Burton's first three seasons in the WNBA, two with Dallas
one with Connecticut were nothing to write home about. The
Northwestern grad never averaged more than three points per game
and never averaged more than fifteen minutes a night. She
made just one start for the Sun in twenty twenty four,
but after spending the offseason playing in the WNBL in Australia,
where she helped her team to a championship, she arrived
(41:47):
at Golden State Valkyries camp with a renewed confidence and
she finally got her breakout year. After helping the expansion
Valkyries to the playoffs, she was named the WNBA's most
improved player and earned a spot on the All Defensive team.
In November, she teamed up with Ali shagray Na's Hillman
and Shakira Austin to win gold in the three x
three AMERICAUP, and in early December she joined her first
(42:07):
Team USA training camp out at Duke University, playing alongside
the best of the best. So waived by the Wings
after the twenty twenty three season, riding the bench with
the Sun in twenty twenty four, and by the end
of twenty twenty five, she's playing with Team USA. That's
good game with Sarah Spain Hall of Fame material. Welcome
to the Hall of Veronica. We always love that you're listening,
(42:29):
but we want you to get in the game every
day too, So here's our good game play of the day.
Watch the Champions Classic on Saturday, featuring a doubleheader beginning
at eleven am Eastern on Fox. We'll link to the
full schedule in the show notes, and of course tune
in for Sunday's NCAA Volleyball Championship pregame and championship as well.
Also quickly wanted to shout out German slice Laura doing
her duty as German bureau chief for the show, sending
(42:52):
us an interesting international soccer update. She tells us that
in early December, the fourteen clubs from the frown Bundesliga,
Germany's top tier win and soccer league, have announced their
decision to split from the German Football Federation DFB and
form their own league organization, Women's Bundesliga Association. The announcement
came one day after it was announced that Germany had
(43:13):
won hosting rights to the flagship YUEFO Women's Euros in
twenty twenty nine.
Speaker 2 (43:18):
Now, German newspaper.
Speaker 1 (43:19):
Build reports that the new association claims the DFB had
made quote unquote unacceptable demands after the contracts had already
been finalized. Meantime, the DFB says it's going to continue
talks with the clubs to try to find a resolution.
Write slice Laura of the club's decision to move forward
no longer in partnership with the DFB. Quote feels like
a big bargain chip to get proper investment from the
(43:41):
DFB and for the clubs to get majority control of
the league because they carry most of the investment and
essentially run it day to day. My take, once again,
women have to do it themselves. End quote. We appreciate
the info and the dispatch danka or in shiba, I
think that means orange slice in German. We always love
to hear from you, so hit us up on email,
(44:02):
good game at wondermedianetwork dot com, or leave us a
voicemail at eight seven two two o four fifty seventy
and don't forget to subscribe.
Speaker 2 (44:10):
Rate and review.
Speaker 1 (44:11):
It's easy watch AI search results rating zero out of
zero confidence review.
Speaker 2 (44:19):
Because Google now forces AI results to a search at
the top.
Speaker 1 (44:22):
Of the page, I'll sometimes, you know, skim the responses
of our robot overlords to see just how unhinged and
inaccurate they are. Once, during the last NCAA tournament, don
Sday in South Carolina were listed by AI as having
won four national titles, with the AI helpfully telling me
further down the page that they'd won in twenty seventeen,
twenty twenty two, twenty twenty four and were likely to
(44:42):
win in twenty twenty five, so they just counted a
title that they hadn't yet won and didn't end up winning.
Speaker 2 (44:48):
Another time, it listed.
Speaker 1 (44:49):
The wrong player as the youngest on the US women's
national team. And just yesterday, when I was searching for
some of the best women's sports moments from twenty twenty five.
It served up a couple notable games and champions and
then suggested a video I should watch with the caption,
this video showcases some of the most impressive moments from
women's soccer in twenty twenty five.
Speaker 2 (45:07):
The still shot of.
Speaker 1 (45:08):
The video was a team of young women playing soccer,
one of them topless, and a spin through the video
showed a woman bending over to pick up a bowling
ball in a short skirt, women athletes in various states
of accidental undress, women fans streaking the field in men's sports,
not even athletes, just the fans. Were women, women fighting
each other, and of course a bunch of women tripping, falling,
(45:30):
and injuring themselves in a variety of sports. Definitely representative
of the very best women's sport had to offer in
twenty twenty five. AI, thank you so much for draining
the world's natural resources to provide me with that most
excellent of insight. Get bent now it's your turn, y'all,
rate and review. Thanks for listening, See you next week.
Good game, David, good game, Veronica.
Speaker 2 (45:53):
Fuck you people who say Christmas shopping.
Speaker 1 (45:55):
On December nineteenth is last Minute No, It's definitely all
part of.
Speaker 2 (45:59):
The play Good.
Speaker 1 (46:03):
Game with Sarah Spain is an iHeart women's sports production
in partnership with Deep Blue Sports and Entertainment. You can
find us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or.
Speaker 2 (46:11):
Wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 1 (46:13):
Production by Wonder Media Network, our producers are alex Azzie,
Grace Lynch, Taylor Williamson, and Lucy Jones. Our executive producers
are Christina Everett, Jesse Katz, Jenny Kaplan and Emily Rudder.
Our editors are Emily Rutter, Britney Martinez and Gianna Palmer.
Production assistants from Avery Loftus and I'm Your Host Sarah
Spain
Welcome to Good Game with Sarah Spain, where we'd like
to thank unrivaled Vinyl BC for bringing to our attention
the All I Want for Christmas times Rich Baby Daddy Remix.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
I didn't know how.
Speaker 1 (00:09):
Much I needed to hear Sexy Red sing, Bend that
ass over, let that Kouci breathe over Mariah's angelic vocals.
It's Friday, December nineteenth, and on today's show, we'll be
chatting with former president of Turner, now the co CEO
and founder of Horizon Sports and Experiences, David Levy about
the upcoming Shark Beauty Women's Champions Classic, how the media
landscape has changed over the years when it comes to
(00:31):
women's sports and changing the minds of decision makers at
major networks.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
Plus, Portland makes a fire Pick and Icy.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
Reunion we can't wait to watch, and we welcome the
latest Donaree into the Good Game Hall of Fame. It's
all coming up right after this Welcome back slices. Here's
what you need to know today. Let's start with the
nwsl On Thursday, the NWSLPA rejected the so called the
(01:00):
high Impact Player roster mechanism that was proposed by the
nwsl board last week a mechanism that would have allowed
teams to spend up to a million dollars outside of
the salary cap on star players who meet certain criteria.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
They would be able to.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
Pay players like Trinity Rodman a bunch of money with
only part of those player salaries counting toward the cap. Now,
per the CBA, the provision needed to be approved by
the NWSLPA, and the union has rejected it, with executive
director Megan Burke stating quote, the league is trying to
control and interfere by trying to dictate which players get
paid what with this pot of funds. Our position is
(01:33):
that teams, gms, soccer ops. Business folks at the team
level are uniquely positioned to make judgment calls about how
to structure their rosters, how to negotiate deals end quote.
Burke also said quote, this is creating a whole new,
separate pot of funds which only a few players are
going to be able to access if they meet unilaterally
created criteria that, by the way, we believe, is ill
(01:54):
conceived end quote. Burke suggested that the league instead increase
the twenty twenty six salary cap by the amount proposed
for that high impact rule a million dollars, bringing the
salary cap to four point five million. Now, it's worth noting,
by the way that the high impact player provision would
uniquely benefit the very best of the best, while an
increased salary cap would allow for higher pay across a roster.
(02:16):
Friend of the show, ESPN reporter Jeff Casoof gave some
context to the discussion of payer play on x now
not specific to the NWSL, but I think his point
still stands. He wrote, quote, as we talk about the
top end of women's soccer players, another fief pro study
reminds us of the realities of global minimum standards. Sixty
six percent of players make less than twenty thousand dollars,
(02:37):
twenty five percent have outside jobs, thirty three percent have
a contract of less than a year, twenty two percent
have no contract end quote. In related NWSL news, the
deadline for the grievance filed by the PA on behalf
of Trinity Rodman has come and gone.
Speaker 3 (02:53):
Now.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
You may recall in a previous show I mentioned Wednesday
was the fourteen day deadline for the NWSL to either
sustain or deny the grievance. In writing, but like the
WNBA and their CBA negotiations. It appears the NWSL has
requested extra time on their test. Sources tell Jeff Kasoof
that both parties agreed to an extension for the league's response.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
No word yet on the length of that extension.
Speaker 1 (03:16):
Speaking of the WNBA and their CBA negotiations, the Players
Association announced on Thursday that its members have voted to
authorize a strike quote unquote, when necessary. Now this doesn't
mean the players will go on strike. It just authorizes
the option of a strike depending on how ongoing negotiations
continue to unfold. In a statement, the PA said, quote
through a decisive vote with historic participation, our membership has
(03:40):
authorized the wnbpa's executive committee to call a strike when necessary.
The player's decision is an unavoidable response to the state
of negotiations with the WNBA and its teams. Time and again,
the player's thoughtful and reasonable approach has been met by
the WNBA and its teams with a resistance to change
and a recommitment to the trect Konian provisions that have
(04:01):
unfairly restricted players for nearly three decades. The player's vote
is neither a call for an immediate strike nor an
intention to pursue one. Rather, it is an emphatic affirmation
of the player's confidence in their leadership and their unwavering
solidarity against ongoing efforts to divide, conquer, and undervalue them.
End quote, draconian provisions oof. The PA noted that ninety
(04:25):
three percent of eligible players participated in the vote, with
ninety eight percent of that group voting in favor of
authorizing a strike.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
And you could tell by the language used in.
Speaker 1 (04:34):
That statement that they want to make clear they are
not fatiguing in their efforts to get what they want
out of these negotiations. As for the league, they released
a statement in response that reads, in part quote, we
strongly disagree with the wnbpa's characterization of the current state
of negotiations, which fundamentally misrepresents the ongoing discussions taking place
at the bargaining table. It is difficult to understand claims
(04:56):
that the league is resistant to change, particularly given that
we are proposing numero CBA modifications, including significant immediate salary
increases and a new uncapped revenue sharing model that would
ensure continued salary growth tied to revenue growth. The league
remained steadfast in its commitment to reaching an agreement as
soon as possible and delivering a thirtieth season for the players, fans, teams,
(05:17):
and partners.
Speaker 2 (05:18):
End quote.
Speaker 1 (05:19):
More WNBA news Retired WNBA Hall of Famer Sylvia Fowls
is set to join the Portland Fire as an assistant
coach under Alex Sarama. This per report from ESPN, Fowls
played thirteen seasons in the WNBA before retiring in twenty
twenty two, with a jam packed resume two WNBA titles,
one MVP Honor, two WNBA Finals MVPs, and four Defensive
(05:41):
Player of the Year awards. Per ESPN's report, Fowls had
multiple coaching opportunities, but decided that the Fire was the
best fit for her to college volleyball. We're recording this
ahead of Thursday night semi finals, so we're not yet
sure who's going to make it to Sunday's championship match,
but regardless of the competitors, we're certainly going to be watching.
That match begins at three thirty pm Eastern on ABC,
(06:02):
and for the first time, ABC will also air a
dedicated thirty minute preview show ahead of the championships first
serve that'll begin at three pm Eastern to college hoops.
We've got back to back top twenty five matchups on
Saturday thanks to the Shark Beauty Women's champions Classic at
the Barclay Center in Brooklyn, airing live on Fox. It's
a great excuse to turn watching basketball into brunch. The
(06:23):
first game between number seventeen Tennessee and number sixteen Louisville
tips off at eleven am Eastern. Then at one thirty
Eastern it's number one Yukon against number eleven Iowa.
Speaker 2 (06:32):
Automnless Mimosas and basketball. Yes please, We'll have.
Speaker 1 (06:36):
More on those games later in the show with David
to the PWHL. Top ranked Boston defeated the New York
Sirens two nothing Wednesday night to extend their unbeaten streak
to start the season to five five and zero, is
the team's best start yet. Goalkeeper Aaron Frankel posted her
third shot out of the season, turning away a season
high thirty three shots. With the win, the Fleet extend
(06:56):
their lead atop the PWHL standings, sitting at fifteen points
as of Thursday, with the next closest team at eight
and here I was worried the Fleet were thrown away
their future not protecting Captain America Hillary Night in the
expansion draft. But I guess they knew what they were
doing in that Fleet front office. Speaking of the Fleet
and Hillary Night, on Sunday, Boston faces off against Hillary
(07:17):
and her new team, the Seattle Torrent for the first
time this season. That's a five pm Eastern puck drop
at Climate Pledgerina in Seattle. The Fleet have another game
before that one, though, as they put their unbeaten streak
on the line against the Minnesota Frost tonight in Saint
Paul and eight pm Eastern puck drop. Two days later.
The Frost will be in my backyard taking on the
Ottawa Charge in a Takeover Tour game at All State
(07:38):
Arena in Rosemont, Illinois, just outside Chicago, and.
Speaker 2 (07:42):
I will be doing the ceremonial puck drop.
Speaker 1 (07:44):
I can't wait to welcome the PWHL to my city
and hopefully a big, rowdy crowd will be there to
help convince them that Chicago deserves its own team. Fingers crossed,
I don't slip on the ice and end up ass
over titties in front of.
Speaker 2 (07:56):
All of my hockey heroes.
Speaker 1 (07:57):
By the way, in case you don't remember from last season.
The take Over Tours a series of neutral site games
where PWHL teams face off in markets that don't have
home squads.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
Last year's Takeover Tour saw.
Speaker 1 (08:08):
Over one hundred and twenty three thousand fans attend games
across North America, and this year it's off to a
hot start with the first stop Wednesday night in Halifax,
seeing a sellout crowd at Scotiabank Center showing up and
showing out. They watched the Montreal Victoire defeat the Toronto
Scepters in a two to one shootout victory. We got
to take a quick break slices when we come back.
(08:29):
It's David Levy.
Speaker 2 (08:36):
Joining us now.
Speaker 1 (08:37):
He's the former president of Turner Broadcasting and current CEO
and founder of Horizon Sports and Experiences. A native of
White Plains, New York, where he grew up playing soccer
in ice hockey, he went to Syracuse and then followed
in his father's footsteps getting into the TV business. In
thirty plus years at Turner, he worked in international business,
then turned to sport, helping bring the NBA and March
Madness to Turner properties like TNT and TBS and negotiating
(09:00):
it deals with countless other sports leagues. Inducted into the
Sports Broadcasting Hall of Fame in the Management category this year.
He grew up watching Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous,
and now he's got Shaq and Charles Barkley on speed dial.
Speaker 2 (09:10):
It's David Levy.
Speaker 4 (09:11):
Hi, David, Hey, Sar Hi you doing that was a
great introduction. I don't know who that guy is, but
he sounds pretty interesting.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
Yeah, well, well we hope, so we're going to find
out together here. Your dad worked on some classic shows,
Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous and Solid Gold, the
Solid Gold Dancers, like what a child did? Did you
get to go to set?
Speaker 2 (09:27):
Ever?
Speaker 4 (09:28):
I didn't get to go to set, but you know,
you know, in the old days when you did syndication,
your dad used to have to travel from market to
market to sell it to local station to local station.
So I got to see because I went to Syracuse undergrad,
and you know, when he came up to the Syracuse market,
he would show me all these new shows, and I
got to see all these new great television shows before
(09:50):
they actually aired on air. So it was a fun time.
Speaker 2 (09:53):
I never I say am too young for solid gold.
Speaker 1 (09:55):
But I definitely watched them Lifestyles of the Rich and
Famous back when I was a kid.
Speaker 4 (09:59):
Yes, yes, yeah, good shows, good shows.
Speaker 2 (10:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:02):
I want to actually go back to your time at
Turner in a little bit and how you've seen the
media landscape change when it comes to women's sports. But
I want to start with this weekend because you're joining
us ahead of the Sharp Beauty Women's champions Classic, co
organized by your company, Horizon Sports and Experiences.
Speaker 2 (10:18):
So tell me about this event and why you got
involved with it.
Speaker 4 (10:21):
You know HSNE and we started this company Chris Wild,
myself who's my partner, and our third is Bill Koheningsberg.
We thought about where we could end up in some
white space, where were there opportunities for a new sports
marketing company to join into this incredible fray of great
agencies out there. And one of the spaces that we
thought that no one was really paying much attention to
was women's sports. And so we set out to figure
(10:44):
out a way to how do we invest in women's sports,
How do we put our money where our mouth is
and where are the opportunities? And it was apparent to
me based on my years at working at Turner and
knowing what was happening in the basketball space, there really
wasn't any early season women's regular season tournament. There was
the Mali Classic for men, there was Atlantis, there was
all these great men early season tournaments, but there weren't
(11:07):
for women. And so we set out with our partners
at Fox and called Gino. Because if you're going to
start a tour, you know anything about women's sports, and
you know about basketball and college basketball, there's no better
franchise or dominant brand than Yukon. And so we were
going to really set ourselves as set apart. We had
(11:28):
to get them locked in. And so I called Gino
and talked about this idea, and I said, this could
really be a destination for you. This could be your
legacy if we can create this incredible early season tournament.
And I'm willing to do what I have to do.
And he was immediately responsive as yes. He said, listen,
we have to keep this in New York because that's
the mecha of basketball. He said, we need to do
(11:51):
this on an NBA court because a lot of these
women athletes will never have the opportunity to play on
an NBA court, and so let's make this something really
really special. Let's do it to New York. Fox committed
to putting it on the Fox broadcasting network, not there,
you know, not a cable network, so it really gave
it the power and so forth. And you know, this
(12:11):
year is our second year. We had Yukon, Tennessee, Louisville,
and Iowa play in the first year, and they all
came back for year two. We're changing the lineup a
little bit for year three. I can't talk about it,
but we're very, very excited. They're always going to be
big brands and big names. And so here we are Saturday,
(12:31):
getting ready for incredible games, and every one of the
four teams are in the top twenty.
Speaker 2 (12:36):
Yeah, and that's what I was gonna say.
Speaker 1 (12:37):
I love to see these matchups because sometimes we're waiting
a really long time. If they happen to play in
a conference with other ranked teams, we'll get to see
it during conference play. But some of these teams could
skate until the tournament, and we're really wondering what they
would look like against some of the best. I mean,
LSU started out the season with eight straight games, scoring
over one hundred points a game, but they hadn't played
anyone in the top two hundred and fifty, right, And
(13:00):
so these tournaments are a great way to incentivize matchups
with teams that have a high ranking and getting us
to get to see for more of the season the
top players playing against each other. You know, women's college
hoops is a massive seller, in some cases, drawing more
eyeballs than the men, more storylines to follow year after
year because they don't have the one and dones of
the men's game. How high is the ceiling for the
(13:22):
women's college basketball product in your opinion?
Speaker 4 (13:25):
In my lifetime, I never would have ever thought that
a final four in women's college basketball would out deliver
the men's and you know, two years ago it happened.
I don't think anybody would have bet that in the
history of anybody in this business. So the ceiling has
continued to be opportunity. I mean, it's all in my opinion,
(13:45):
stems back to if you want to go way way
back to Title nine. When Title nine was instituted, I
think that's when women were able to get better coached,
play longer, have more opportunities. And I think you're starting
to see that even all the way up to the WNBA,
where you know there's ability to expand in teams. Now,
I mean, the quality of the game is getting better
(14:06):
and better. And it used to be there was five, six,
seven great women's basketball players, and now you know you're
probably fifty to seventy deep of really quality play. Yeah,
and that's what makes it interesting.
Speaker 1 (14:18):
I agree with that, but I'm going to push back
a little bit and say a lot of times the
product or the quality of play is pointed to, but
it's actually just a lack of investment and awareness from folks.
If you talk to people like Sue Bird, she says, yes,
the general basement is higher. Everybody is better because there
are more opportunities to play at the youth level, AAU
(14:39):
college is better funded, there's more opportunities at the pro level.
There's reason to keep playing. But you go back to
the early days of the w and there were a
ton of incredibly talented players, just wasn't always an awareness
of them, or a marketing of them, or.
Speaker 2 (14:53):
An ability to see them.
Speaker 1 (14:54):
I agree with you in part I do think the
product is always evolving in getting better.
Speaker 2 (14:58):
We see that in every single.
Speaker 1 (14:59):
Sport, but I think women's sports in particular we tend
to prioritize the now over the quality of the past,
when it's really just about the structural and institutional problems
that women's sports face more than it is the product
that was the problem.
Speaker 4 (15:11):
Yeah, I'm not going to argue that, but I would
say probably a little bit of both. Yeah, And you know,
there's no one hundred percent right answer, But all I
would say is this isn't a moment. This is a movement,
and it's moving fast, and the opportunities are continued to
continue to grow. I mean, you're seeing Unrivaled another league start.
You may even see a third league with Project B
that's sort of circling around and being talked about. If
(15:34):
you didn't have the deep wide talent that I think
there is today, these leads couldn't couldn't exist.
Speaker 1 (15:40):
Yeah, for sure, I want to get back to Unrivaled
because that's one of the things your company is working with.
But I want to go to Turner because you spent
thirty three years there. You started in sports sales, then
you got taped to run ad sales for international business,
so you went SVP EVP President of International ad Sales,
co CEO of Turner International, and then you get back
to your sports routes, you take over Turner Sports in.
Speaker 2 (15:59):
Two thousand three.
Speaker 1 (16:00):
Take us back to three, because I know you're negotiating
so many different rights deals for so many different properties,
and at the time you're a wash in things like NFL, NBA,
March Madness, all the other things. What was the view
of women's sports at the time, tell us, honestly, interest
in them, desire to acquire them, belief in their success
if you aired them.
Speaker 4 (16:20):
None. Yeah, I mean, it wasn't even on the radar.
And not to say, you know, again, look at where
we are today. There are far many different leagues. I mean,
you know, NWSL was not I don't even think it
was in existing existence. Okay, So there wasn't a lot
to really talk about. There was NCAA women's college basketball
and we had assigned a new deal in two thousand.
(16:41):
We weren't even in college sports really until twenty eleven
with our deal with CBS, and the WNBA was around,
but it was attached really to ESPN and really wasn't
making much noise whatsoever. So if you're asking me back
in two thousand and three, it really wasn't even on
the map.
Speaker 1 (16:58):
Yeah, and that's what sore re markable is for people
to understand that, of course women's sport has been in existence,
but professional leagues with really secure investment and a solid
foundation for growth and further investment have not been around
for that long. So they're still quite nascent. So the
growth that we're seeing, the rocket ship growth of late,
is really impressive for these leagues that are just getting started.
(17:20):
I want to talk about the women's versus men's March
badness because you negotiate it the men's NCAA basketball deal
for Turner and CBS. It was extended in twenty sixteen,
now running through twenty thirty two at over a billion
dollars a year for.
Speaker 2 (17:32):
The men's rights package.
Speaker 1 (17:34):
So I'd love your perspective on the women's side, because
after being called out for undervaluing and not properly supporting
the women's tournament, the NCAA had to act and last
year they announced an eight year, nine hundred and twenty
million dollar media rights agreement with the ESPN. This sounds great,
except the kicker is it's forty championships bundled together through
twenty thirty two, including the women's basketball tournament. Now, if
(17:56):
women's basketball is not sold on its own, How can
it prove it's offitability? How can it put to rest
the bullshit claims that the championship loses money annually when
an independent investigation in twenty twenty two said its value
is somewhere between eighty one and one hundred and twelve
million dollars. There's a big difference between loses money every year.
Let's keep not investing and pretend that it's a money
(18:16):
loser versus eighty two, one hundred and twelve million dollars.
Is this malpractice from the NC DOUBLEA that they continue
to fold these women's rights in with other things instead
of letting it standalone and see what it can pull.
Speaker 4 (18:27):
I can't speak for the negotiation. I wasn't involved with
it at all. I think the women's got a huge
increase from what it was, and you know everybody's going
to say, well, can it go higher? No one knows,
you know, the opportunities may or may not have existed.
I don't know, But what I will say is the
NC DOUBLEA has a bunch of championships that need exposure
and need opportunity, and sometimes you bundle things and sometimes
(18:51):
you separate things out. I don't think it's malpractice. I
think that was a very strong statement. But I wasn't
involved in the negotiats. I can't really speak to it,
but I do know a lot of new dollars came in.
I do know there's great exposure for March Madness, for
women's March Madness. I know that they now moved the
event to the same weekend as the men, which I
(19:12):
think that's a nice leverage point for both sides. They
can now market against with each other, and so there
was a lot of positive movement on it.
Speaker 1 (19:19):
Yeah, it was a massive increase from what it was before.
It had not been materially renegotiated in like thirty years.
It was a ridiculous thing that they essentially ignored year
after year. And that's how baked in the misogyny was
that they were willing to pass up millions and millions
and millions of dollars because they were so antiquated in
their idea of what it could do. And the reason
(19:40):
I say malpractice, and the reason I guess I'm frustrated
is because, yes, of course we love to see other
NCAA championships make money and thrive, but it's always the
women who are expected to do the good thing and
to help something else, as opposed to understanding the potential
negatives and drawbacks to it constantly being bundled where you
can can really fudge some numbers if you don't want
(20:02):
to end up acknowledging its real value.
Speaker 4 (20:05):
You know, yeah, I mean, listen, we can state a
lot of facts, and all the facts right now are
pointing upwards to women's sports, right. I mean, my understanding
is going to be close to two billion dollars that
are done in global women's revenue right now in twenty
twenty five, which is, you know, a two hundred and
forty percent increase.
Speaker 2 (20:24):
Huge.
Speaker 4 (20:24):
It's huge, and it's only going to go upwards, right.
I mean the ROI you know, if I'm sitting in
my old seat at Turner, or I'm sitting over at
David Burtson's seed at CPS, or sitting over like people,
You're not doing this as a favor. You're doing this
because it's a real ROI the real return on women's
sports right now, the ratings are growing, the interest is growing,
(20:48):
the brands are shifting dollars. I mean, at hs ANDE,
you know, our big focus was getting these brands who
normally would be doing red carpets at the Grammys and
themes and so forth. But Sophora became a huge sponsor.
A Sharp Beauty is our title sponsor, our title sponsor
for the Women's Champions Classic.
Speaker 2 (21:07):
It just makes sense too.
Speaker 1 (21:08):
It's such an interesting thing of how those were sort
of parallel lines that weren't intersecting, and then we all say, oh,
actually you can do both.
Speaker 2 (21:14):
You could be a woman in sports and care about beauty.
Speaker 4 (21:17):
But for all the reasons that you were concerned about.
They didn't think there was going to be an ROI
on it either. They thought it was better to be
on the red carpet for the grandees than to own
a piece of sport mark. So even the brands weren't convinced.
Speaker 1 (21:29):
So much of the research that came into helping the
brands understand the potential was necessary, and a lot of
companies weren't looking into and digging into the brand affinity
that sports fans have when you align with the leagues.
They care about the relatability of female athletes, where you say, oh,
I just saw her play two hours and she still
looks good, So I believe that more than this influencer
over here that I think spent three hours getting ready
(21:49):
and I don't know if it's going to last and
the look's going to still be good. So there is
it feels inevitable once it happens, and in the lead
up there is a lot And that's why I'm so
glad that with your new company, you're someone who brings
these thirty plus years of experiences negotiating. The reason I
asked about the women's deal, I know you didn't negotiate,
but because you were in the room every single year
working on those massive deals on the men's side, so
(22:10):
to understand the arguments that go into getting what you
want out of those deals.
Speaker 2 (22:14):
Those same people.
Speaker 1 (22:15):
Need to be bringing that experience in that fight to
the growth for women's sports, because it is happening so exponentially.
Each deal can look very stale shortly after you make
it if you don't have an innovative spirit and a
real mind to the growth that could happen in the
coming years.
Speaker 3 (22:30):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (22:30):
I mean when I helped with unrivaled media package that
is exclusive on T and T Sports, and you know
they spent one hundred million dollars over six years that
you know is a big, big number for a new league,
And to be honest with you, I think when you
(22:51):
go back and look at it six years from now,
that would be a steal because I think this, I
think that league is going to continue to grow. But
remember all these leagues are so new. I mean, I
always go back because I know you're you know, you
seem frustrated on certain levels. But remember but remember the
WNBA is only twenty eight years old. Yeah right. There
are hockey teams that are in their one hundredth anniversary,
(23:13):
and football and it's one hundredth anniversary, and yeah, and acmespan.
Speaker 2 (23:16):
We can go one hundred and eight years between winning.
Speaker 4 (23:19):
Right, But I'm saying those I bet you in the
first twenty eight years they weren't making money either.
Speaker 2 (23:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:24):
Well, but that's the that's the frustration stems from people
getting in the way of growth, not from where the
growth is right now. It's that I think it could
be even further if people were willing to go back
and look at those men's leagues and the place that
they were instead of constantly trying to compare where they
are now with a hundred to start.
Speaker 4 (23:41):
That's my point, My point is, you know year twenty
eight through year for the next year fifty of the WNBA,
I think you're going to see astounding numbers right as
just like you did with the NFL. I mean, prior
to nineteen seventy eighties, they weren't doing that well. Franchise
values weren't that good. You could buy teams for nothing.
So you know, I think it's moving an enormously fast
(24:04):
paced right now. There is some frustrations from the past,
but I think you're going to see tremendous with brands
are shifting dollars, sponsors understand, the ROI media companies are
investing in women's sports now buying properties that they normally
wouldn't have done in the past. You know, we're at
this inflection point, yeah, where I think you're going to
see tremendous growth, even though you've already seen it in
(24:25):
the last two years.
Speaker 1 (24:26):
I want to get to some of the stuff Horizons doing.
But I wanted to ask you quickly because you know,
at and T acquired Time Warner including Turner in twenty nineteen,
you chose to move on, and I just want to
know how you felt in that moment in this business
and in so many businesses. I guess there is a
real fear of leaving behind the thing. You know, thirty
three years in one spot, what was the dominant emotion fear, panic, excitement?
Speaker 4 (24:48):
You know. My son I was inducted, as you mentioned earlier,
the Sports Broadcasting Hall of Fame a couple of days ago,
and I had my family with me, and both my
sons said to me, you know, you're like unicorn. No
one spends thirty three years at any.
Speaker 3 (25:02):
Company, you know, And I didn't, you know, if you
think about it, I didn't really think of it that
way because I probably had twenty six different jobs while
I was at one company, whether it was internationally.
Speaker 4 (25:13):
You re reeled off a few of them in the beginning,
so it didn't feel like I was in the same job.
I was in many different jobs in the same company
for thirty three years. But when I left, you know,
it was just time. When Turner was bought by Time
Warner in nineteen ninety, I guess it was six. I
went through that merger. I went through the AOL merger
(25:33):
in two thousand and two. I went through the AOL
being kicked out. I went through the AT and T merger,
so you know, you go through a line offer mergers. Yeah,
so many different mergers. It was time thirty three years
at one company. John Stanky had a different vision and
how he wanted to take the company. You know, I'm
about saying we weren't aligned on certain things. We certainly were,
(25:54):
but there were things that just didn't excite me anymore.
And I'm glad I did because HS and E is
a great organization. My partner Chris and I are loving
to grow this agency. We're focused on really some key
assets and some key genres and it's been a great
ride for three years.
Speaker 1 (26:11):
I mean, I love someone with your experience coming into
the space and saying there is a white space here,
there is an opportunity to do stuff that hasn't been
done before and to bring the level of professionalism and
investment that you brought to other stuff to it.
Speaker 2 (26:22):
You mentioned unrivaled.
Speaker 1 (26:23):
You've invested in and sold sponsorship and media rights for it.
Also for World seven's football seven v seven women's soccer league,
which debuted in May. We just saw a really super
successful event down in Fort Lock.
Speaker 2 (26:34):
I believe so much fun, Holy.
Speaker 1 (26:35):
Cal You could tell everyone there was having the time
of their lives.
Speaker 4 (26:39):
I will tell you that event. It was spectacular. You know,
to me, I look at a couple things. If the
product on the floor is good, that's the most important thing.
You got to have quality product on the floor. On
rival had quality product. Those women were hustling and winning,
and that's what you saw in World seven The second
thing is the names on the back of the jersey.
(27:00):
I am I introducing new names or do people know
and recognize these names? And then obviously unrivaled. You have
the top WNBB players in the world, not just then WNBA,
but world players playing and in World Sevens you have
the top clubs in the world playing in these events.
So you got the names on the back of the jerseys,
you got the product on the floor. Those are the
(27:20):
two most part. And then they're actually playing for real money.
So you know there was a five million dollar guyze
pool for World Sevens and these women. You know that
the champions, the San Diego NWSL team, they won two
million dollars.
Speaker 2 (27:34):
Yeah, okay, not to over a weekend for hanging in Florida.
Speaker 4 (27:38):
Yeah. And I love the short field. I love the
no off sides. I liked the different rules. It was
fast paced, our games, and in this day in worlds
with a tension span, sometimes you kind of need that
kind of product so well.
Speaker 1 (27:50):
And that's one really cool thing about women's sports is
the door has opened because we know enough of the
players now from watching NWSL and watching WNBA that we
want to see them in these other You couldn't really
do these all star opportunities quite the same way before.
To your point, previously when you didn't know that many
of the names, they didn't know that many players. So
I want to know how you found working in the
women's sports space different from your years focused on the men,
(28:12):
because one thing that we talk about on this show
is that if you have let's say, an in house
marketing team or sponsorship team, and they try to walk
into these meetings and handle them exactly the same way
they do dealing with men's established one hundred year old leagues,
they'll fall flat if they want to try to promise
the same exact kind of ROI or offer up the
(28:33):
same potential benefits to a deal.
Speaker 2 (28:36):
How have you learned on the fly very quickly.
Speaker 1 (28:39):
That you're going to want to promise something different and
aim for something different when it comes to partnering with
women's leagues.
Speaker 4 (28:45):
The few things that I think stand out in women's
leagues and women's sports in general and women athletes. First
of all, social media. These women have fans that follow
them prior to even doing anything, right, I mean, they
have their own following, their own own voice, their own
situation where they're doing podcasts, where they're doing influencer creativity,
(29:05):
and they love doing it. They earn their dollars for it, right.
Speaker 2 (29:09):
Yeah, that's where most of the money comes from for women.
Speaker 4 (29:11):
Out exactly exactly, And so that in itself, brands love that,
that whole opportunity to work with the athlete where you
probably don't have that. The top fifty athletes in NWSL
or in the WNBA are probably doing much more on
a social creative level than the top fifty men. Okay, sure,
and I know that for a fact, So it's not
(29:33):
like even a question in my mind. So the first
thing is there's social access, there's social followers. All of
that is exciting when you start working with the women's league.
The second thing is is the barrier of entry where
you have these established CPMs and sponsorship levels that have
in order to activate, you have to be here here
here and here. A lot of these leagues don't have
(29:54):
any barriers right now, and so you can get in
at a very very I'm not going to say cheap,
because nothing's cheap, but I would say more a better
ROI than you could with some of the men's leagues,
and the opportunities because there's you're not blocked out either,
Like you try to go in and get insurance company, well,
all State has that or State Farm has that. So
(30:15):
the exclusivities sometimes blocked.
Speaker 1 (30:18):
There's like an official bread of the NFL, right, they've
got an official everything at this point.
Speaker 4 (30:22):
And and right now you know, like you know the
you know, glam room is you know, you know it's
not available right now on arrival, but it could be
available for something else. So so there's just ways for
you know, whether it's beauty products, whether it's insurance companies,
automotive and now you're starting to see some ratings that
are very comparatible to men and what no one's really
(30:44):
talking about, and I think this is very key sports betting.
People are starting to bet on women's sports. And when
you bet on a sport, you're more engaged. And when
you're more engaged, guess what happens. Ratings grow, Yep, you
watch more more.
Speaker 1 (30:59):
Taking the content at the shoulder, programming, all the other
things that are part of the ecosystem.
Speaker 4 (31:03):
You bet, you bet on a sport, you're ninety five
percent more likely to watch. Yeah, right, Yeah, So all
these things are factoring in. And so I think the
barrier of entry the ability to get in and get
in at a reasonable level, and then watch it grow
because I think if you invest now, it's only going
to get better.
Speaker 2 (31:22):
Yeah, And David, you know, it's interesting.
Speaker 1 (31:23):
I remember being at ESPN years ago and there would
be these big, all hands on deck meetings talking about
various like big endeavors that the company was undertaking, or
ratings across certain things, and they would always have the
man eighteen to forty nine and that would be the
only group that they would even talk about. And one
of the things that's fascinating to me is like the
old adage of bitches be shopping is accurate and more
(31:46):
so than ever. And if you look at projections, women
are expected to have seventy five percent of household perse
control within the next couple of years like we have,
and are spending the money and we influence the buying
decisions of our children, of our partners. It's kind of
wild to me how we are still so antiquated in
our understanding of where the influences in terms of spending,
(32:08):
and we kind of make fun of it and then
don't realize that putting our marketing and sponsorship dollars behind
it would actually benefit our companies.
Speaker 4 (32:15):
Yeah, you know, listen, there's facts and then there's realism, right,
I mean, you know, I also know that you know,
sixty seven percent of the you know, active support sponsors
that are in women's sports actually buy the products. That's
the other thing they actually support. If you're sponsoring a
women's team or a women's league, you're sixty seven percent
of people would want to use that product, right, So
(32:35):
not only are they sponding, but they actually support. So
you're right. I know that for my household, I mean
my wife, my wife's controls pretty much the purses.
Speaker 2 (32:44):
But it was it was did you buy anything you're wearing?
Speaker 4 (32:47):
To know? Da are you kidding me? So listen, this
is why this is a movement. Now. It's if you're
living under a rock, if you don't understand the value,
what's happening, the opportunity is the barrier of entry to
get in all of that. I mean, you know, as
I said, my agency is putting their money. We're invested
in unrivaled We do unrivaled sponsorship sales. We did, you know,
(33:10):
close to over twenty million dollars in sponsorship sales for
a new league World Sevens. We handled their media rights
as well. There's sponsorships. We're involved in the WCC, the
Women's Champion. So it's continuing. I haven't made an announcement yet,
but where we are going to get into the podcasting
business with a Partnerland. So we're excited about that because
(33:32):
and it's going to be women focused, So hopefully we'll
be competing with you and you're a great podcast. Bring
it on, David, We're bringing it on. But you have
to be involved in these in these different businesses and
these different platforms because that's where A the viewers are going,
B the brands dollars are going.
Speaker 2 (33:50):
Yeah, a couple more questions for you.
Speaker 1 (33:51):
You know, some people are wondering whether women's sports is
a bubble that's going to burst, but investment across multiple leagues,
increased attendance, in viewership, incredible demand for more merch and content,
things that have been lagging for so long that they're
finally catching up on It sure.
Speaker 2 (34:05):
Feels like it'll last. How do you see the.
Speaker 1 (34:07):
Growth potential for women's sports, and how do you think
the fragmented media landscape and the digital opportunities that mean
it doesn't always have to compete for linear television space
will allow for that growth to not.
Speaker 2 (34:18):
Be stunted by a competition with what already exists.
Speaker 4 (34:21):
First of all, they've been talking about the bubble bursting
in sports for I don't know forty years since I've
been in this business, and every time I've been on
any panel, I always say, I don't see a bubble bursting.
You know, sports is the last appointment viewing on television.
Speaker 2 (34:37):
Launch it live watching my friends.
Speaker 4 (34:39):
My line. I've said for my tire careers. Nobody watches
the super Bowl on Monday. You know, don't tell me
the score. I don't want to know. Sports is also
the ultimate drama. You don't know the outcomes. So when
you have ultimate drama appointment viewing, I don't see a
bubble bursting. Now Here's what I think is interesting. I
do believe that the actual television itself just because of
(35:04):
where subscribers are growing and so forth. It's getting old,
so you know, it's skewing. Oh, you know the fifty
plus if you have a cable box or broadcast television
and so forth. I do believe that there are numerous
opportunities with these ad supported destination digital platforms, and I
think that's going to continue to grow and give real opportunity.
(35:25):
And we just saw yesterday that YouTube went out and
got the Academy Awards, and you know, I think that's
going to be very successful. My two boys, one thirty
three and one twenty nine, haven't turned on a TV
in ten years. That doesn't mean they don't watch content.
That don't but they're just watching it very differently. And
(35:45):
I will tell you this from an advertising and brand perspective,
you'd rather have it be on a streaming service or
a digital platform because you can target market better. You
can actually have much more target marketing and an ROI
for your right.
Speaker 2 (36:01):
All those cookies we have to agree to.
Speaker 1 (36:03):
Yes, Well, tell the folks who are trying to get
to us exactly what we're watching.
Speaker 2 (36:07):
For how long and what we like? Yeah, but you
know we're not watching.
Speaker 4 (36:10):
Yeah, but you can you know, but you also can
sell that commercial to a million different people, right.
Speaker 1 (36:14):
And now we're seeing the interactive opportunities, whether that's the
live watching via Twitch or whether it's literally click a
button in the middle of what you're watching to buy
the thing that you just saw.
Speaker 2 (36:22):
Like, that's going to keep expanding and growing too.
Speaker 4 (36:24):
And let's not talk about also AI. I mean, you're
going to be able to watch let's say I want
to watch an NBA game or a w NBA game
with Kevin Hart's voicing it. I could probably watch the
whole game with him announcing it. Right, They're just going
to be different, different opportunities continue.
Speaker 2 (36:39):
They're going to move to a farm before we get
to that. I don't know.
Speaker 1 (36:42):
I think I'm one of those old people that's like
too much change all at once, make it stop.
Speaker 4 (36:46):
Well, here's the one thing that's going to happen. They'll
always be what you liked and what you remember. There's
just going to be additional options.
Speaker 2 (36:54):
Yeah, I want to quickly ask you.
Speaker 1 (36:56):
You know, we joke on this show about how women's
sports is talked about and can that are to beat
even though it's countless leagues and sports like we're in
charge of covering all the things. And then there's other
shows that are just the NBA or just the NFL,
but women's sports is the beat. How do you think
discussing and doing business in bulk as quote unquote women's
sports either helps or hurts the properties in the mix?
Speaker 4 (37:17):
You know, that's a great question. I think it's going
to be less and less about women's sports and more
and more about property by property, because I don't think
every property is going to be successful, Like there's not
every property in men's sports are going to be successful.
I think it's going to go back to the quality
of the product on the field, the names on the
back of the jerseys, and the fan bases. And so
(37:39):
there are some sports I mean, I'm I'm very bullish
on women's volleyball, although I will tell you I don't
think I think there's too many.
Speaker 2 (37:47):
Leagues one thousand percent, So don't I.
Speaker 4 (37:49):
Think there's going to be consolidation there. But there are
certain sports. I think I think women's lacrosse is going
to have some surgeons, but how much. I mean, where's
men's across today versus everything else?
Speaker 2 (38:00):
So the sport itself is not America's go.
Speaker 4 (38:02):
To but but I do think there's going to be opportunity.
So you know, there are some and then there's I
even think women's hockey, you know, ice skating is going to.
Speaker 1 (38:10):
Have PWHL has been growing exponentially and they hope to
have four more teams by next year, which would be
really a ton of expansion in a short time.
Speaker 4 (38:19):
And they're doing a great job marketing it, and they're
understanding that you know, Canada is important, right, yes, you know,
because you know that's where hockey came from, but they
also know where to kind of go in and do
a one town exposure for the league.
Speaker 2 (38:33):
Yeah, the Takeover Tour coming to Chicago this weekend.
Speaker 4 (38:36):
So I just like the way they think and how
they're and how they're positioning themselves in the marketplace. So
I do believe sport by sport. I think grouping at
all women's sports. You needed that ten years ago, you
probably don't need that, you know, I think it'll become
less and less important.
Speaker 1 (38:50):
All right, last question for you probably might have gotten
to this place anyway if you were still at Turner,
but maybe not because your knee deep and all the
other existing rights.
Speaker 4 (38:58):
Packages definitely would have been I don't want to cut
you off, but we would have been. We would have
definitely been in women's sports.
Speaker 1 (39:03):
You would have Okay, Well, what do you tell the
decision makers that are at big networks or legacy brands,
who are maybe still using antiquated data sets, maybe operating
using old fashioned ideas about demand and interest for women's sports,
maybe even just their sales team has been doing the
same thing for decades and isn't up to date. What
would you tell them about what you're seeing in this
space and the opportunity there.
Speaker 4 (39:24):
I would tell them that, you know, brands are shifting
their dollars and moving towards women's sports. I think they
all know that. You know, you're starting to see the
number of hours. I mean, I think it was like
four percent of all programming was on women's sports. It's
now close to fifteen. You know, you're seeing a rise
just in the number of hours on television and on
(39:46):
cable and other other distribution platforms. So I think that's
going to continue to arise. So I think it's going
to happen almost naturally. I mean, the antiquated we only
buy men's sports. I don't think there's a brand or
a network or a distribution outlet that's saying that it's
almost impossible not to understand what's happening.
Speaker 1 (40:06):
Well, I hope some of them are listening. I guarantee
some of them still are.
Speaker 2 (40:11):
Thank you so much for the time, David.
Speaker 1 (40:12):
It was great to talk to you, all right, sir,
thank you. Thanks again to David for taking the time.
Speaker 2 (40:18):
We got to take another break when we come back.
Speaker 1 (40:20):
It's time to engrave a new plaque to hang in
the Good Game Hall of Fame.
Speaker 2 (40:30):
Welcome back, slices.
Speaker 1 (40:32):
It's been a while, so we thought it was time
to enter someone else into the Good Game Hall of Fame.
Speaker 2 (40:39):
Ah. Yes, the Good Game Hall of.
Speaker 1 (40:40):
Fame, where we celebrate women's sports lore, the kind of
legendary stories we should all know by heart, just like
we know the stories of men's sports. We all remember
the time Chicago Bulls great Dennis Rodman wore a wedding
dress and married himself. And we're never surprised when Detroit
Red Wings fans throw a dead octopus on the ice.
That tradition began because it used to take eight victory
to win the Stanley Cup. But when it comes to
(41:02):
women's sports, we've got some catching up to do. So
many great stories passed in presence still untold. So grab
another plaque and find a good place on the wall,
because today we've got another inductee. Now, this one isn't
wacky and wild like a one man wedding. It's more aspirational,
the kind of story Sports Center would spend a whole
segment on if an NBA player did it. It's the
(41:23):
incredible story of Veronica Burton's twenty twenty five season.
Speaker 2 (41:26):
Now.
Speaker 1 (41:26):
Burton's first three seasons in the WNBA, two with Dallas
one with Connecticut were nothing to write home about. The
Northwestern grad never averaged more than three points per game
and never averaged more than fifteen minutes a night. She
made just one start for the Sun in twenty twenty four,
but after spending the offseason playing in the WNBL in Australia,
where she helped her team to a championship, she arrived
(41:47):
at Golden State Valkyries camp with a renewed confidence and
she finally got her breakout year. After helping the expansion
Valkyries to the playoffs, she was named the WNBA's most
improved player and earned a spot on the All Defensive team.
In November, she teamed up with Ali shagray Na's Hillman
and Shakira Austin to win gold in the three x
three AMERICAUP, and in early December she joined her first
(42:07):
Team USA training camp out at Duke University, playing alongside
the best of the best. So waived by the Wings
after the twenty twenty three season, riding the bench with
the Sun in twenty twenty four, and by the end
of twenty twenty five, she's playing with Team USA. That's
good game with Sarah Spain Hall of Fame material. Welcome
to the Hall of Veronica. We always love that you're listening,
(42:29):
but we want you to get in the game every
day too, So here's our good game play of the day.
Watch the Champions Classic on Saturday, featuring a doubleheader beginning
at eleven am Eastern on Fox. We'll link to the
full schedule in the show notes, and of course tune
in for Sunday's NCAA Volleyball Championship pregame and championship as well.
Also quickly wanted to shout out German slice Laura doing
her duty as German bureau chief for the show, sending
(42:52):
us an interesting international soccer update. She tells us that
in early December, the fourteen clubs from the frown Bundesliga,
Germany's top tier win and soccer league, have announced their
decision to split from the German Football Federation DFB and
form their own league organization, Women's Bundesliga Association. The announcement
came one day after it was announced that Germany had
(43:13):
won hosting rights to the flagship YUEFO Women's Euros in
twenty twenty nine.
Speaker 2 (43:18):
Now, German newspaper.
Speaker 1 (43:19):
Build reports that the new association claims the DFB had
made quote unquote unacceptable demands after the contracts had already
been finalized. Meantime, the DFB says it's going to continue
talks with the clubs to try to find a resolution.
Write slice Laura of the club's decision to move forward
no longer in partnership with the DFB. Quote feels like
a big bargain chip to get proper investment from the
(43:41):
DFB and for the clubs to get majority control of
the league because they carry most of the investment and
essentially run it day to day. My take, once again,
women have to do it themselves. End quote. We appreciate
the info and the dispatch danka or in shiba, I
think that means orange slice in German. We always love
to hear from you, so hit us up on email,
(44:02):
good game at wondermedianetwork dot com, or leave us a
voicemail at eight seven two two o four fifty seventy
and don't forget to subscribe.
Speaker 2 (44:10):
Rate and review.
Speaker 1 (44:11):
It's easy watch AI search results rating zero out of
zero confidence review.
Speaker 2 (44:19):
Because Google now forces AI results to a search at
the top.
Speaker 1 (44:22):
Of the page, I'll sometimes, you know, skim the responses
of our robot overlords to see just how unhinged and
inaccurate they are. Once, during the last NCAA tournament, don
Sday in South Carolina were listed by AI as having
won four national titles, with the AI helpfully telling me
further down the page that they'd won in twenty seventeen,
twenty twenty two, twenty twenty four and were likely to
(44:42):
win in twenty twenty five, so they just counted a
title that they hadn't yet won and didn't end up winning.
Speaker 2 (44:48):
Another time, it listed.
Speaker 1 (44:49):
The wrong player as the youngest on the US women's
national team. And just yesterday, when I was searching for
some of the best women's sports moments from twenty twenty five.
It served up a couple notable games and champions and
then suggested a video I should watch with the caption,
this video showcases some of the most impressive moments from
women's soccer in twenty twenty five.
Speaker 2 (45:07):
The still shot of.
Speaker 1 (45:08):
The video was a team of young women playing soccer,
one of them topless, and a spin through the video
showed a woman bending over to pick up a bowling
ball in a short skirt, women athletes in various states
of accidental undress, women fans streaking the field in men's sports,
not even athletes, just the fans. Were women, women fighting
each other, and of course a bunch of women tripping, falling,
(45:30):
and injuring themselves in a variety of sports. Definitely representative
of the very best women's sport had to offer in
twenty twenty five. AI, thank you so much for draining
the world's natural resources to provide me with that most
excellent of insight. Get bent now it's your turn, y'all,
rate and review. Thanks for listening, See you next week.
Good game, David, good game, Veronica.
Speaker 2 (45:53):
Fuck you people who say Christmas shopping.
Speaker 1 (45:55):
On December nineteenth is last Minute No, It's definitely all
part of.
Speaker 2 (45:59):
The play Good.
Speaker 1 (46:03):
Game with Sarah Spain is an iHeart women's sports production
in partnership with Deep Blue Sports and Entertainment. You can
find us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or.
Speaker 2 (46:11):
Wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 1 (46:13):
Production by Wonder Media Network, our producers are alex Azzie,
Grace Lynch, Taylor Williamson, and Lucy Jones. Our executive producers
are Christina Everett, Jesse Katz, Jenny Kaplan and Emily Rudder.
Our editors are Emily Rutter, Britney Martinez and Gianna Palmer.
Production assistants from Avery Loftus and I'm Your Host Sarah
Spain
Host
Sarah Spain
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