October 7, 2025 • 42 mins
The Athletic’s Sabreena Merchant joins Sarah to discuss what she witnessed in games one and two of the WNBA Finals in Las Vegas, whether we should be reading more into Alyssa Thomas’s hand injury based on her handles, the cost-benefit of letting A’ja Wilson eat, and what to expect next in the ongoing WNBA CBA negotiations. Plus, an alliance to align the women’s hockey calendar, plastic confidence, and the boys are fighting.
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Watch the post-game incident involving Anders Jacobson and Jimmy Coenraets here
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Check out photos Ilona Maher’s Barbie doll here, her video promoting the collab here, and Mattel’s press release here
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Good Game with Sarah Spain, where we don't
need lip readers to know that a couple of yous
were thrown in an NWSL handshake line this weekend.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
It's Tuesday, October seventh.
Speaker 1 (00:09):
And on today's show, we'll be chatting with Athletic Women's
Basketball staff writer and co host of the No Off
Season podcast, Sabrina Merchant about what she witnessed in games
one and two of the WNBA Finals in Vegas, whether
we should be reading more into Alisa Thomas's hand injury
based on her handles, the cost benefit of letting Asia
Wilson eat, and what to expect next in the ongoing
WNBACBA negotiations. Plus coming together to align the women's hockey calendar,
(00:35):
plastic confidence, and the boys are fighting. It's all coming
up right after this welcome back slices, Here's what you
need to know today. Let's start with hockey and some
joint news from the PWHL and the International Ice Hockey
(00:55):
Federation AKAHF. You may recall during an episode week we
discussed how the PWHL calendar for the upcoming season doesn't
include a break for the Women's World Championship, An annual
tournament that has historically happened in April, and that there
still weren't dates or a host city for next year's tournament,
while on Monday, the IIHF announced that, thanks to a
(01:15):
collaboration with the PWHL, beginning in twenty twenty six, the
Women's World Championship will be held in November instead of April,
and that next year's tournament will be played in Denmark.
For its part, the PWHL has agreed to adjust the
league's schedule to start later so the two competitions won't clash.
The IIHF also announced that, beginning in twenty twenty seven,
the organization will stage a European Women's Championship in April
(01:37):
of each year. Given that the majority of p WHL
players are still American and Canadian, this European tournament will
allow for more international growth of the game without having
a huge impact on the PWHL. To quote friend of
the Show and Queen of all Things Women's Soccer, Meg Linahan, wait,
international governing bodies and pro leagues can just align their
calendars because they think it will improve the sport. What
(01:59):
at God's yeah, somebody get FIFA and the NWSL on
the horn, speaking of the NWSL and a moment we
wanted to highlight from.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
This past weekend's competition.
Speaker 1 (02:09):
You remember, in yesterday's show we mentioned a draw between
the Chicago Stars and Utah Royals that saw the Stars
fight back from down two nil to tie the game
to to and earn a point, while Stars interim head
coach Anders Yakobsen and Royals coach Jimmy Kohnrots could be
seen yelling at each other after the final whistles sounded,
with players and staff members clearly making an effort.
Speaker 2 (02:28):
To calm the situation.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
We wanted to get a little more information before he
told you about this, and it's still not clear exactly
what sparked the dispute or who started yelling first, based
on the game broadcast and the videos we watch, but
both men were asked about it during their postgame press conferences.
First here, Stars coach Yakobsen in the postgame take a listen.
Speaker 3 (02:48):
There's motions and when you end the game, I think,
and in this case, I think the Chicago Stars today
did many good things. I think the team deserved to win,
and I think we created enough of chances during maybe
this seventy five until the seventy five minute, But there
was some incidents during the game which made the game
(03:11):
a bit difficult for us, I think, and when the
game then is clear, we have too too, which I
wanted the team today to not leave this pitch without
any points, and I was just emotional for me seeing
that they did it, and those emotions were there. Maybe
(03:35):
I should have handled a little bit better, But I
also think sometimes I think it's important for every person
to reflect on in general in life, what kind of
values you'd want to follow, and I tried to follow
mine today, which made it a bit rough, I think.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
When asked directly what thing Utah did to inspire his anger,
Yakobsen seemed to intimate there was some funny business on
a few occasions after Royals players went down with the injury.
So it's not entirely clear, but my read is that
he believed Utah was trying to delay or interrupt game
flow to hold on to their lead, you know, prevent
the Stars from getting into a rhythm or come back.
(04:18):
As for Coon Rots, he was also asked about the
moment take a listen, just.
Speaker 4 (04:23):
Think there is a form of decency to talk at people,
and when people start shouting at me for things that
are completely out of my control, I think that's just
when you lose decency as a person and you lose
also credibility in my opinion as a coach. We all
get emotional, we all know what the pressure is on
the game. But shouting to me for the fact that
it was a concussion, they were in possession, we didn't
give possession back. I think that's a bit mad to
(04:44):
start shouting about, and like, if that's bothering you for
thirty minutes, then I'm afraid you're focusing on the wrong thing.
And I think again, I was the one that was
actually ironically shouting at the official that was their ball.
It was not even claiming that it was our ball.
So yeah, again, like I think, if you just lose
decency start shout in like a dog, that doesn't take
well to be done.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
As it was just a.
Speaker 4 (05:05):
Form of emotional stability that we only need in this league.
Speaker 5 (05:08):
I think a lot of talk of decency here.
Speaker 1 (05:10):
Shout out to Taylor Vincent for posting videos of the
incident and the postgame quotes on Blue Sky. Will link
to those in the show notes. Also shout out to
Star's assistant coach Ela Mazar, who somehow ended up calming
down and restraining both of the coaches her own and
the opposing teams at different moments during that postgame. TIF
you the real mvp Ella and some news from the
(05:31):
World of Barbie where they're rolling out some more athlete dolls.
In celebration of International Day of the Girl on October eleventh,
Barbie has introduced a team of dolls honoring four international
rugby athletes, including our USA Eagles Queen Alone o Mar Permettel.
The Alone Omar doll, available for purchase next year, will
feature quote a new Barbie body sculpt designed to reflect
(05:54):
the build of many strong athletes.
Speaker 2 (05:56):
End quote.
Speaker 1 (05:57):
Mar told Reuters quote Barbie's are the ultimate image of
beauty and femininity, and so that's what we grew up
seeing every day. What I want is that when girls
play with this and they see my Barbie and the
broad shoulders and the big arms, that can kind of
shape their views of beauty as well.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
End quote.
Speaker 1 (06:12):
As part of their International Day of the Girl rollout,
Barbie also conducted a study across the US, UK, France,
and New Zealand, the home countries of the team Barbie
Rugby role models to better understand what holds girls back,
both from their perspective and their parents' perspective. Among the findings,
one in three girls disengages from sports by age fourteen,
primarily due to body confidence concerns, self doubt, and a
(06:35):
lack of visible female role models. Only fifty three percent
of girls ages six to fourteen feel confident while playing sports.
The leading reason for a lack of confidence is fear
of making mistakes, and forty eight percent of parents pointed
to social attitudes that discourage girls from sports as a
major barrier. Will put a link to the matel release
in the show notes if you want to read more
(06:55):
about the study. Also links to check out Alona's doll
and her work with Barbie. We got to take a
quick break when we come back. My conversation with Sabrina Merchant.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
Joining us now.
Speaker 1 (07:13):
She's a women's basketball staff writer for The Athletic and
co host of No off Season, The Athletic Women's Basketball podcast,
with previous stops at Espionation and Dime Magazine. A ducalum,
she was on Jeopardy and not the easy celebrity version,
the real one.
Speaker 2 (07:27):
It's Sabrina Merchant.
Speaker 5 (07:28):
Hi, Sabrina, Hi Sarah, thanks for having me.
Speaker 2 (07:31):
You're welcome.
Speaker 1 (07:31):
I need to talk about Jeopardy first. That is definitely
a life dream of mine. Was it everything you imagined?
Speaker 6 (07:37):
Yes?
Speaker 4 (07:37):
And no.
Speaker 7 (07:37):
I mean I got to go on when it was
still hosted by Alex Jabreck, which was definitely amazing, big
bucket list item. It was unfortunately during the pandemic, so
I couldn't invite anybody to come watch at the time.
Speaker 6 (07:49):
It was just an empty soundstage.
Speaker 7 (07:51):
Had to sit in the Wheel of Fortune studio like
while we're waiting for the other games to finish, and
you're not allowed touch the wheel, which is a real downer.
And I was very concerned that if I did touch
the wheel, I wouldn't no longer be allowed to play Jeopardy.
Speaker 6 (08:02):
But yeah, it was. It was really fun.
Speaker 7 (08:04):
I went up against a super champ, so longer than
a game, but hey, you know, second place is better
than fourth place?
Speaker 1 (08:12):
Was the buzzer as hard as it allegedly is because
a lot of people say, oh, I knew all the answers,
I just couldn't.
Speaker 6 (08:17):
Buzz No, I did not know as many answers as
the game.
Speaker 1 (08:22):
Still amazing, still amazing. Let's talk WNBA Finals. You were
in Vegas for games one and two, so let's start
with the vibe there. What did it feel like being
in Michelobaltra for those two Aces wins. Certainly the crowd
shots made it look pretty fiery.
Speaker 7 (08:38):
Yeah, it felt very similar, honestly to the last time
I was here for the WNBA Finals in twenty twenty three.
A lot of confidence from the fans, just an expectation
that their team is going to win, which admittedly was
probably not the case back in June and July.
Speaker 6 (08:52):
But they've gotten there.
Speaker 7 (08:52):
The swagger's back, Like everyone in Vegas feels like this
is happening. Definitely a weird thing to have a game
start at five pm on a Friday local time, But
vibes are really good, you know, Vegas, the aces are
super chill. They really are very comfortable with who they
have now. The fans are locked in. I mean, I
don't think they've seen so the Fever beat them at
home for the first game of the Semis, but otherwise
(09:14):
they haven't seen their team lose since August, so you know,
just just rolling here right.
Speaker 1 (09:19):
Yeah, they're up two games to none and what I
thought heading in was a stacked Mercury team is looking
pretty meek so far. So how are the Aces so
effectively shutting down in particular Alissa Thomas?
Speaker 6 (09:31):
Yeah, you and me both right.
Speaker 7 (09:33):
I saw the Mercury beat both of last seasons WNBA finalists,
including the Minnesota Lynks, who basically disrect through the entire
regular season and had a lot of respect and appreciation
for what they accomplished. And yet they come up against
the Aces who have just had their number all year.
You know, the Aces have beaten them in every game
that Asia Wilson has played this season, And like what
you said, it comes right down to Alyssa Thomas. You know,
(09:53):
they're throwing hard doubles at her every time she gets
the ball, really having their guards swipe in to disrupt
her handle, and it's just making her very uncomfortable, which
is not a position that you see Alis thomasin. Like
she's the one who creates the space, right, who makes
other people uncomfortable and bounce off of her, And yet
the Aces have been able to crowd her take away
the middle of the floor, and it's sort of revealing
(10:15):
the fact that, like the Mercury might be deep, but
they are all players who are kind of dependent on
Alissa Thomas to create for them, and without her as
this folk rome, you know, center of gravity within the
Phoenix Mercury offense, it's just a lot of people trying
to take contested shots and it looks not as pleasant
as you would hope for if you're a Mercury fan.
Speaker 1 (10:37):
Yeah, it's really just been Kalie, a copper who's looked
to be in rhythm. And you're right, it all comes
back to Alissa Thomas who in previous series, even against
good teams, there was a freedom of movement, it felt like,
and she was dictating both the defense and offensive sides
of the of the floor what the Mercury are doing.
But to your point, she's getting doubled inside the A
said nine steals and six blocks in game two. They
(10:58):
made it really difficult. And then you mentioned on your show,
which is fantastic. By the way, I feel like I
know we met very briefly once, but I feel like
I know you because you're in my ears all the time.
Speaker 5 (11:07):
You guys do such a fantastic job.
Speaker 1 (11:09):
But you mentioned on your show at reacting to Game
two how much the defense for the Mercury has.
Speaker 2 (11:15):
Been impacted by their failures on offense.
Speaker 1 (11:17):
They turn the ball over, the Aces get going and
they can't get back and set up either, so it's
like they can't really get set on either side of
the floor. Why have the Aces been so able to
control tempo in this series?
Speaker 7 (11:29):
Yeah, I think a lot of it is because they're
creating those live ball turnovers. Right during Game one, when
Vegas was down for a good chunk of that game, right,
they still only turned the ball over I think seven
times as a team, and Phoenix so much of their
tempo is created by turnovers. A less Thomas getting out
of the open court even off of makes right, like
dictating that pace, and the Aces just a lot of
(11:51):
dead balls, right, and they're very disciplined at taking care
of the ball. They don't let you get out in transition,
and that's been affecting Phoenix's ability to get out and
go and really up their offense, like get their other
people in rhythm other than Alyssa Thomas, and it goes
the other way too, right, Like the fact that Phoenix
can't take care of the ball themselves is hurting them
in defensively, and Vegas is a hard enough team to
(12:13):
stop in the half court, right, Like with Chelsea Gray,
the way that she's playing, some of those times that
she had in Game two, or just I don't even
want to say vin to Chelsea Gray, because as long
as she's passed her prime, you know, she's just like
a perfect point guard for this day and age.
Speaker 6 (12:26):
In the WNBA.
Speaker 7 (12:27):
She's just creates so many openings in the half court
for her teammates. Like one of the passes she threw
in Melissa Smith, I think I'm still not sure like
where the angle came from, but like obviously it was
right on point right at the.
Speaker 6 (12:38):
End of the shock.
Speaker 7 (12:39):
Like, but yeah, like everything Phoenix is doing is just
like a negative feedback loop into the next right, Like,
they can't stop Vegas and that prevents them from getting
out in transition. They can't control the ball themselves and
that hurts their defense. And like, if you were to
pick one side of the ball that I think they're
probably more disappointed in, it's that they can't do anything
defensively in the half court against Las Vegas, and that
was really supposed to be their bread and butter. Right,
(13:00):
they were able to stop New York, they were able
to stop Minnesota. Their offense has been the lesser side
of the ball for them all season, and the fact that,
like the Aces, I mean, we should have seen this coming, right.
They have its great, they have Jackie Young, the ad
Asra Wilson, they have all of these offensive weapons who
have been there on the stage before it together and
the Mercury just haven't had any answers for them on
that endother floor.
Speaker 1 (13:20):
Yeah, the Aces are finally putting it together. This is
a team that at times looked unfocused or weren't being themselves,
And so I think there were some questions then because
of how the Mercury blew through two finalists from last
year to get here. But I think we spent all
season talking about how the Aces are nothing without Asia,
and perhaps we also should have anticipated that the Mercury
might be nothing without Thomas.
Speaker 2 (13:41):
Does the series.
Speaker 1 (13:42):
Hinge on her being dominant again both as a facilitator
and as a scorer herself, or is it possible to
see a game where they ride a hot Khalia Copper
or Sachusabuli Or does it ultimately feel like without Thomas
being able to be who she is, there's no chance
for them?
Speaker 6 (13:59):
Yeah?
Speaker 7 (13:59):
So Cock her feels like the only player who really
is able to get her offense independently of Lyssa Thomas.
When we saw a lot of those drives in the
basket and came to the problem with Kay is that
she's guarding Jackie Young on the other end, and everything
she's doing is basically neutralized, right, And I have aultmate
respect for both of them, Like they're not gonna be
able to stop much of the other. Like it's they're
just too good at getting into the paint, right, So
where are the advantage is going to come from? And
(14:20):
I think that's where you need Alyssa Thomas. And like
Elyssa Thomas is such a specific kind of player, they
built her team. They built the McCree team basically in
her image, right. They got shooters around her, defenders around her,
but they've also gotten a lot of complimentary players around her.
And I just don't know what other buttons they have
to push if Alyssa Thomas isn't dictating the flow of
the game like they talked about. So I think that
(14:42):
that's just like the number one thing they have to
get a list Thomas going. I know she's been very
adamant that like nothing is wrong with her hand. She's
perfectly fine. Her handle would suggest otherwise, Like, I don't
think she's ever been that loose with the ball. But
I mean, whatever adjustments the Murker you're going to make
have to start with getting Thomas in the middle of
the floor and and space to operate, because that was
the whole thesis of this roster. And I like, if
(15:03):
that's not going to happen, I just I don't know
where else you.
Speaker 2 (15:06):
Look, Right, Well, that's what I was gonna ask.
Speaker 1 (15:08):
They got six six or eight points off the bench
in Game two.
Speaker 6 (15:12):
Right, and a couple of those were just in garbage time.
Speaker 1 (15:14):
Yeah, right, So who needs to step up? And you
know it is something like Sammy Witcomb being injured going
to be an issue.
Speaker 6 (15:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 7 (15:22):
I mean, I thought Sammy Wickham and Jewel Lloyd was
like an interesting pivot coming into this series because you know,
former Seattle Storm teammates, says who won a couple titles together.
Speaker 6 (15:28):
They've both been very effective off the bench.
Speaker 7 (15:30):
Sammy Wickham hit like to this point the shot of
the playoffs right to have that Game two come back
against Minnesota, and she has just been very limited.
Speaker 6 (15:38):
Every shot she takes looks rushed.
Speaker 7 (15:40):
Jewel looks completely comfortable, right, Like just that that hasn't
even been a matchup, right, like Jewels convincingly dominating the
six woman discussion there and then like Dana Evans and
to want to Bonner, Right, Dana has been so much
more effective than to want to Bonner, And I don't
think anybody would predicted that coming in right, liked Wana
hasn't been able to make much of an impact defensively,
Dana being like ten inches shorter, and Wanna Bonner is
(16:00):
just really like kind of like a knack, right, She's
just like getting into Dewana's space.
Speaker 1 (16:05):
Did you see when Dowana tried to like bump her
and she bounced off of her because do Wanna is
so lithe and lean she literally tried to like show
like be like oh I got you, little one, and
then bounced off of her and Dana Evans did not
move like Okay, it's crazy, ok yeah.
Speaker 7 (16:20):
I mean if you're not winning that matchup, like Satan,
Jewel is one thing, Like Jewell is a former scoring
champion in this league. Just because her role is a
little different now doesn't mean she's still not capable. But
like all due respect, to Dana Evans. Do Wanna Bonner
is the third leading score in WNBA history, like one
of the leading scorers in playoff history, and she has
not been able to make an impact whatsoever. So I
think do Wanna's got to be a lot better. I
do wonder if we see like any bit of Colaonnie
(16:43):
Brown in this series, because all of the options on
Asia Wilson have just like either you're tiring Alyssa Thomas
out when you really need her to do work offensively,
or you're putting like Natasha mac Bonner or kat Westbeldonner
who just don't have a prayer really like, you get
Asia in the middle of the floor and she can
see right over them. So maybe that's something that we
see from the Mercury, just because you can't go down
(17:03):
through nothing right.
Speaker 1 (17:04):
Like wait, maybe just throw some bodies at her that
can take some fouls and just physically make it hard
for her. You know, we had Cindy Brunston on the
show yesterday. She knows the Mercury very well, being the
TV play by play voice.
Speaker 2 (17:16):
For a number of years.
Speaker 1 (17:17):
She said, just let Asia eat and see who else
bes you Do you agree with that?
Speaker 7 (17:23):
I mean I don't love the idea of like letting
Asia get thirty eight points in the game, like it's
kind of Storm did.
Speaker 6 (17:27):
But then again, you know that happened in.
Speaker 7 (17:29):
An elimination game that Seattle only lost by one, So
I do think that, like it's it's not necessarily an
easier task, but it's like a more clarifying task to
just try to stop Ada Wilson. So it simplifies like
the decision making process for your defense, so at least
you're not making mistakes and considering everybody else they've been
able to let get off.
Speaker 6 (17:48):
Maybe that is the play here.
Speaker 1 (17:49):
Just let Asia go didn't work in the third quarter
a Game two with Jackie Young playing the way she did, though,
So I guess if that's a small sample size there.
Speaker 2 (17:58):
What can the Mercury learn.
Speaker 1 (17:59):
From what the Storm and Fever did to push the
Aces to the brink in their previous series, Because it's
it's been surprising to me that the Storm and Fever
made it so much harder for the Aces.
Speaker 2 (18:10):
I mean, the.
Speaker 1 (18:10):
Aces looked less, focus, less in rhythm, They didn't have
their swagger. Is that something you can go back and say, hey,
pull this that Seattle did or.
Speaker 2 (18:19):
Do this that Indiana did.
Speaker 7 (18:21):
I thought the first round Seattle just has a lot
better interior defense with Don Malonga. I think mag mcgor
like that size actually had something of an impact on
the Aces. And I think something that Beggy Hammond has
been talking about all playoffs long is just her team
really felt that physicality from Seattle.
Speaker 6 (18:38):
They felt it from Indiana.
Speaker 7 (18:39):
I think Indiana is the most instructive option here because like,
let's just call it space bad. I think Phoenix is
less talented than the Aces are right now, Like just
what you got four gold medalists, you know who are
in their closing five, Like it's just it's hard to
match that level of star power.
Speaker 6 (18:53):
But Indiana, what they were able to do is they.
Speaker 7 (18:55):
Just were so disruptive, like Lexi Hell going through every
screen Odyssey sam Is picking up like ninety four feet
the entire time, Leah Boston just moving Asia Wilson out
of her preferred spots. They were so strong and like
to the spot and they just didn't give away any inch.
And you're not feeling the Phoenix Mercury at all, right,
Like Sasu Sabli is not like a physical presence. Kalia
(19:15):
Kopperet even hasn't been a physical presence, Like I think
that's where it starts. Like on the defensive end, they
just need to be more disruptive. They need to be
defending for the full length of the court. They can't
let any any ball get passed half court really without
like five or six seconds at least coming off of
the shot clock, just to try to disrupt that rhythm
a little bit. I think Indiana was so good at that,
And honestly, like the more I watched this series, I'm
(19:37):
just like in awe of what Stephanie why was able
to accomplish with this imbortam and how how hard they played,
Like Phoenix is not playing as hard as.
Speaker 1 (19:46):
Indiana played, Like they're missing Lexi Hall for one, who
seemed to be everywhere on the court, getting every rebound,
fighting for every loose ball. There was like a heart
and a fight there that it's surprising not to see
from a Mercury team that was physical, was.
Speaker 6 (20:00):
Able, and he's led by Alissa Thomas.
Speaker 1 (20:03):
Yes, who's literally a football player on a basketball court.
It's been wild to see how their identity has sort
of disappeared so far. But we've got a nice long
break Game three on Wednesday. You have to think that
helps the Mercury. And then you've got an Aces team
that you mentioned on your show lost Game three in
twenty twenty two and twenty twenty three, and those were
not seven game series. This is the first ever seven
(20:25):
game final series, which means that the Mercury maybe can
take a little more hope if they grab Game three.
Do anticipate a little letdown for the Aces when they're
in hostile territory on Wednesday?
Speaker 7 (20:36):
I don't think it's so much of a letdown for
the Aces as I think the Mercury will just be
really amped playing in Phoenix, knowing that they need this
when role players always tend to play a little bit
better at home. You know, I would expect a couple
of those Sami Wigums threes to start going in when
they're in Phoenix, you know, maybe to want to Bonner finds.
Speaker 6 (20:51):
A little bit of life.
Speaker 7 (20:51):
But you know, the Aces, like we talked about the streak, right,
they won sixteen games in a row, They've been very
up and down in the playoffs, Like they haven't been
the Las Vegas Aces for more than two games in
a row, which I think is why I mean at
least from my perspective, I thought the Mercury had a
chance in this series because as good as the Aces
can be, they just weren't often at that level during
(21:13):
the playoffs. And I'm beginning to think it was more
an Indiana perspective than it was an actual Las Vegas thing.
But I don't know if the Aces like have shown
the ability to play that many good games in a
row during the playoffs, at least defensively, and if the
Mercury can get some shots to fall. Like Becky Hammon
always talks about closing out series on the road, I
know it's the thing that she likes to do. It's
gonna be, I think, little bit harder to get it
(21:33):
done in four, maybe like six, with the more apt
to finishing for that series. But yeah, it's not that
I expect the Aces to be like that much worse
in Game three. I just think that Phoenix will find
like an extra reservoir, if not in Game three, at
least in game four. It I don't think this is
going to be a sweep, but it is looking more
lopsided than I anticipated to start the series.
Speaker 1 (21:54):
Yeah, I agree, and I think you know, there's that
old adage series doesn't start until a road teams. Right
that the Aces were supposed to win the first two
games at home, and in theory that Mercury are supposed
to hold serve on their home court, So we'll see
how that goes in game three. What do you think
the biggest adjustments are going to be And how do
you think Nate Tibbets has coached so far in this playoffs,
(22:14):
whether that's use of challenges, whether that's rotation and personnel.
What have you seen from him so far and what
do you expect to change potentially in game three.
Speaker 7 (22:22):
Well, I think the number one adjustment has to be
just finding a way to get a Lista Thomas free
from this pressure. They've got to create some space for her.
I thought they kind of conceded the point against Vegas
in the second game where Alysta Thomas was so dominant
during the first three quarters of Game one and then
they go to that zone and it denies her the
middle of the floor, and then they just stopped running
pick and roll with her in game two, and I
was so curious as to why they let Vegas win
(22:43):
that point. So I do wonder what Nate Tibbets is
going to do two free at a little bit more
in game three. I think he's He's been pretty good
throughout the course of the playoffs. I thought the adjustments
that they made against Minnesota, the pressure that they ratcheted
up against the Links, are really good. Series is a
little bit different, just because Twoey was so compromised in
Game two and then I don't really know what was
(23:04):
happening with the rest of their team down the stretch
it which just wasn't a fully realized version of the
liberty that we've become accustomed to. But you know, Nate admitted,
first of all, like he made a mistake down the
end of Game four by not calling a time out
on that final position when they wanted to get a
game time three point look up. And this is his
first finals, right, Like not just his first finals, this
is his first real playoff run, like they made the
playoffs last year. But it was a very quick two
(23:27):
games sweep at the hands of the Links. And it's
not like he has a lot of experience as a
head coach on this stage, so it's a growing experience.
Like not everyone is Becky Hammond and comes in and
just wins dial in their first year right. Admittedly, like
it's a good example to draw from, but I don't
think it should be the expectation for anyone, especially since
Phoenix is such a new team come together, Like obviously
(23:47):
they seem to want to have a lot of history together.
But you know, Sammy Wickham's never played with them, Khalia
Copper's never played with them, Soto's never played with them. Like,
They's just a whole group of players who were learning
each other for the first time, and they've done remarkably
well to get to this point. But I think, like
I've like NAT's use of timeouts quite well, Like he
always seems to have one in his back pocket at
the end of the game, and yet he always has
like the right feel of when to stop a run
(24:09):
or when to just like makes a couple of mistakes
that he says in real time. I wish they would
go to the bench like a little bit more, just
because it has been very limited production from them. Like
I do wonder what like Alexi help could do if
you just wanted a little bit of point of attack defense,
or what Kalani could do in the middle of you know,
the paint, just like a body on Asia Wilson, you know,
(24:30):
so maybe we'll see more of that, but I think
like Nate's been very clear, like this is his rotation,
this is the group that got them there, This is
that he's going to ride with, and maybe that gives
them more confidence going into Game three, knowing that they
have so much trust from their head coach.
Speaker 1 (24:44):
I want to ask you quickly, there's kind of been
an obsession with Nate Tibbett's salary because he became the
highest paid coach in the league despite not having a
lot of experience and was a man and so of
course there's a lot of discussion and on the show
we've sometimes poked fun at him. I have said that
he should no longer be the butt of Jakes based
on the job he's done with this team. But you know,
the whole girl dad thing in the salary thing still
(25:05):
sticks with some people looking at you, Producer Alex. So
between that pr surrounding is hiring and everything else and
what we've seen from the last two years and his
run to the finals, do we think that we should.
Speaker 2 (25:16):
Stop making fun of him?
Speaker 5 (25:17):
Do we think he's worthy of the league highest salary?
Speaker 1 (25:19):
Where do we stand on making fun of Nick Tibbets
for being a girl dad who makes a lot of money.
Speaker 7 (25:24):
You know, the podium when they announced his hiring is
just really hard to get over. You know, those three
dudes sitting there announcing the Sea or the Phoenix. Mercury
was that it was just a hard book. But I
think makes it a really good job. And I think
Khalia Kapper likes him, which is a good enough endorsement
for how he's done in Phoenix. Obviously, listen, Thomas takes
really highly of him. There's no reason he should be
the highest paid coach in WNBA. Like how has Becky
(25:45):
Hammond's contract happen renegotiated to get her on top of
that number?
Speaker 6 (25:48):
Like Mark Davis, what do we do?
Speaker 1 (25:49):
At the same time, I do think like when teams
are willing to pay money to have coach a good
thing they want it's a good thing. We would love
for it to be the women, and maybe women have color.
But you know what, if a white dude needs to
get the ball rolling and the rest of them can
negotiate based on his dollar amount, Let's spin it positive,
as I always try to do. Let's switch gears for
(26:12):
a minute to the bigger picture. Surrounding the w right now,
which is the Katy Engelbert versus Nefisa Kalier beef.
Speaker 2 (26:19):
It's the CBA negotiations.
Speaker 1 (26:21):
And you've reported about this whole CBA negotiation process, including
that the players have talked about the WNBA quote unquote stalling.
It's easy to see even from the outside that players
in the league don't seem to be in lockstep. But
I wonder what specific issues you've heard players actually cite
as being important to them in the upcoming CBA that
maybe they're not feeling like they're getting a lot of
reciprocation on.
Speaker 7 (26:42):
Yeah. I mean, it's interesting because so much of the
discussion has been about revenue share and salary, and that's
just the number one sticking point, Like they can't move
beyond anything if that is not part of the deal, right,
an equitable share of the revenue, like whatever percentage that
ends up being, I don't think it's gonna end up
looking like the NBA percentage. Fifty fifty just doesnt seem
like it's on the table, but definitely more than the
incremental targeted revenue sharing system that the WNBA has right now,
(27:05):
which has not yet kicked in for the players. So
all of the revenue that the league has generated over
the last three years and this monumental period of growth
has not made it back towards that portion of the league.
So it's kind of hard to even get beyond that issue.
Just like there's no future of the league without that.
But no other things that the union has talked about
are pensions, right, want to make sure that retired players
(27:27):
are served, which has just not been the case in
the WNBA so far.
Speaker 6 (27:31):
Maternity and family planning benefits.
Speaker 7 (27:33):
You know, we've seen a lot more parents in the
league than before, and that has been the result. I
think of some changes in policies where like, remember when
if you were pregnant used to have to be suspended
and you weren't allowed to get paid from your team.
Speaker 6 (27:44):
It's like, why would anybody do that?
Speaker 7 (27:46):
And now you see a team like, you know, Shan
Parker tires gets to join the Aces and sit the
whole season up until the final month, and like they
welcome her back, and like that just wasn't possible in
the league. But there's still more room to grow there
where like players can bring caretakers on the road them
and like get an extra room for their children and
you know whoever's watching their.
Speaker 1 (28:03):
Kids, and we're still trying to figure out exactly what
happened with d york A Hamby and the exactly right
not a problem.
Speaker 7 (28:09):
Yeah, the fact that the aces are you know, in
the middle of this again is just a lovely little
bit of a coincidence or not, who knows, but that's
on the list. I know Satu's actually talking about the
fact that, like they haven't been paid since September fifteenth,
they're working in the postseason, and like they're getting playoff
bonuses with those playoff bonesses are just like a fraction
of you know, a Commissioner's Cup bonus for example. So
(28:29):
just general like leveling out across the board and making
sure that there's minimum standards for therapists and you know,
massage therapists and you know, pets and everything like on
staff at all times, places for players to work out
during the off season. Like there's there's so much that
goes into be a DOMM player during the off season
(28:50):
that like they have to fund out of their own dime.
Like I remember Boomkay talking about just getting gym memberships
in Houston, like finding a way to you know, get
shots in during the off season that players would like
to get paid for at some point so that they're not,
you know, using their salary to help fund their off seasons.
Speaker 2 (29:09):
So much good stuff in there.
Speaker 1 (29:10):
I want to backtrack to one of the first things
you said, though, and explain it like we're five, just
for anyone who doesn't know the details of this. The
current CBA has a revenue share agreement in it, but
you mentioned that the players have not benefited by the recent.
Speaker 2 (29:22):
Rocket ship growth of the league. Why is that?
Speaker 5 (29:24):
Can you explain what they're hoping to change for the
next CBA.
Speaker 7 (29:28):
Yeah, so, just as simply as I can make this,
The way that the CBA created revenue share when it
was enacted in twenty twenty was there were these targets
that the league had to hit every year, and the
target goes up by twenty percent each season. So let's
say it started at I don't know, one hundred million
in twenty twenty, then the target in twenty twenty one
would be one hundred and twenty million, and so on
and so forth, and so you have the league has
(29:51):
to hit the cumulative target for that year, and then
any excess revenue gets put into a revenue sharing system.
Speaker 6 (29:57):
So because the.
Speaker 7 (29:58):
WNBA had basically no right venue in twenty twenty because
the pandemic season, and very limited revenue in twenty twenty
one because it was also a you know, social distancing.
People are barely coming back into arenas, A lot of
arenas weren't even selling tickets for the majority of that season.
They've just been behind the eight ball to hit these
targets over the last five years. So despite the fact
that they've gotten an enormous amount of revenue in twenty three,
(30:21):
twenty four, and twenty five, it just has not made
up for the deficit that was created back.
Speaker 1 (30:25):
Right, because it's cumulative, it's out restarting and hitting it
for a year.
Speaker 6 (30:28):
Got it exactly.
Speaker 7 (30:29):
You got to hit that cumulative target and that just
has never been hit. And then even when you do
hit the cumulative target, only thirty five percent ends up
going back to the players. And of that thirty five percent,
seventeen and a half percent goes into like the those
league marketing agreements versus seventeen and a half percent back
to the players themselves. But it's just like a ridiculous
number because salaries have gone up by about three percent
each year, and they're expecting the revenue to go up
(30:52):
by twenty percent each year, and then it has to
go up by more than twenty percent for revenue share
to come back to the players. So like, you look
at the growth of their salaries and you look at
the growth of the league's revenue, and they just don't
match up with one another.
Speaker 1 (31:06):
Yeah, how do you think the current tensions between Commissioner
Kathy Engelbert and a FISA Kllier and then all the
players who have now been supporting fees statements publicly might
impact negotiations beyond the awkwardness of Kathy seeming to be
on the firing line potentially while trying to do these negotiations,
you now also have a group of players that already
(31:28):
seemed pretty pissed and now have a fire lit under
their ass from a public conversation about being let down
by leadership as opposed to what was I think seemed
more intentional messaging from say the WNBPA and things like that,
you know, posting about how they weren't coming to an agreement.
Now it feels like sort of all bets are off
because everyone's just firing on social in interviews.
Speaker 7 (31:51):
You know, I do wonder how much the relationship between
the players and the leadership has actually changed, because it
seemed pretty contentious even before.
Speaker 6 (31:58):
And Ifisa Kllier went scorch strength in that exit interview.
Speaker 7 (32:01):
Like we know how bad it is now, but I
think the players are well aware of how they felt
about Kathy Engelbert and how the leaders have felt about
Gathy Anglbert before that.
Speaker 1 (32:07):
I just feel like when you say something though, and
then everyone agrees with you and egg you on and
a bunch of people are like yeah, fire, or you're
like yeah, you know, like you just feel a little
bit more in bold.
Speaker 6 (32:17):
And maybe Kathy didn't know how bad it.
Speaker 7 (32:19):
Was, yeah, yeah, yeah, there might have been some wilful
ignorance on her part of how the players felt about her.
That has just been disabused at this point because it's
very clear now how the players feel about her.
Speaker 2 (32:31):
Yeah.
Speaker 7 (32:31):
I I can't imagine it's gonna help negotiations, obviously, but
I don't know how much worse they could possibly get,
considering how far apart they are on these things at
this point. Like the point of the commissioner is to
be a shield for the owners, right, Like she takes
all of the public punching, so to speak, for the league,
and the owners get to make their money and not
have to do anything, and Kathy handles all of it.
(32:52):
And I think this is something that like Adam Silver,
for example, on the NBA has perfected pretty well. Like
the owners get to cash their checks and Adam Silver
gets to just be the public face who says silly
things and you know, is claimed to be too reactive,
and all everybody knows about him is that he has
like bro hugs everyone at the NBA Draft. But Kathy
now is like messing with the WNBA owners bottom lines, right, Like,
(33:12):
if there's not a season, then all of this money
that they but to be fair, like owners have actually
started to put some money into the WNBA, all this
money that they put back in is no longer going
to see return if like the season doesn't happen. So
this is where I wonder if like the NBA Board
of Governors starts to step in, or you know, Adam
Silver starts to apply some pressure on Kathy to just
get a deal done.
Speaker 6 (33:32):
Because the group of owners that.
Speaker 7 (33:33):
Owns the WNBA, like a lot of them are are
his owners too, right, Like in the NBA Board of Governors,
there's so many that are NBA owners WNBO owners, and
part of that capital raised like triple dipping in terms
of that WNBA pie and it's getting embarrassing and it's
affecting their bottom lines, and that's when things start.
Speaker 2 (33:50):
To happen well.
Speaker 1 (33:52):
And I said in yesterday show, like I have a
real fear for this league being going in a direction
that feels opposition to so much of what else is
happening in society, and at this very pivotal moment of growth,
fighting itself. Every single other piece of society right now
feels like it's pushing against women making money, getting appropriate
(34:14):
treatment in the office, being afforded respect, like everything else.
And then you've got this league that is like in
this gigantic moment of growth, that is cutting itself at
the knees because they can't come to agreement on how
to spend all the money that they're currently making.
Speaker 2 (34:29):
And I know it's not that simple, but there is
something to be said.
Speaker 1 (34:31):
I think, for no matter how bad the relationship was
before and how much the public was already on the
side of the players, how this particular incident has ratcheted
that up and made it probably even less likely to
come into meetings feeling like you want to shake hands
and get to work, being more pissed at the opposition
that you're trying to meet with and agree with. So
interesting to watch this continue to play out, and very
(34:52):
interesting to me to continue to have such little financial
transparency around the league when we're trying to figure out
from the outside exactly what's going on.
Speaker 2 (35:01):
Okay, so real quick, can you game plan it out
for us?
Speaker 1 (35:03):
If there isn't an agreement by October thirty first, how
might that disrupt the two expansion drafts and free agency?
Speaker 7 (35:09):
Yeah, so it kind of depends on whether they negotiate
an extension or just immediately go into a lockout on
October thirty first. If there's an extension, there could be
an opportunity to continue league business while the CBA is
being negotiated, So that could allow for the expansion drafts
like before the end of the calendar year, even if
a full CBA is not yet agreed upon.
Speaker 6 (35:28):
I don't think that's what's going to happen.
Speaker 7 (35:30):
I think these expansion drafts are going to be pushed
back into January like after or however long it takes
to work on a deal. My hope is it doesn't
take longer than the calendar year. But like obviously, things
are going terribly and just the general inventum doesn't feel great,
So my expectation would be that we're not going to
see expansion drafts, free agency draft lottery, or any of
that stuff until after a deal is I signed up
(35:51):
on knock on one all right.
Speaker 1 (35:53):
Finally, your podcast is called No off Season, and the
name is not hyperbole because there is now no off
season in women's soups got two weeks after the WNBA
finals wrap up, college season tips off, and of the
college season, just a couple of days between NCAA Championships
and the WNBA Draft, and you got unrivaled thrown in
there to watch as well and to cover as well. Now,
on the men's side, a lot of reporters will stick
(36:14):
to just college or just the NBA, but on the
women's side, people usually cover both, partly due to the schedule,
given that you know, college and NBA happened at the
same time.
Speaker 2 (36:22):
That makes it a little harder for those reporters, but
also I.
Speaker 1 (36:24):
Think you know, it sort of limits your ability to
cover WNBA news during the NCAA season if your knee
deep in the stories of the college game and vice versa.
So how do you handle the pivot of switching your
coverage focus? And do you think at some point we're
going to get to a place where we need to
have dedicated w reporters who are just focused on all
(36:44):
of the off season goings on, particularly in a moment
like this with the CBA negotiations and all the expansion coming.
Speaker 7 (36:51):
Yeah, I'd say in response to your first question, I
don't do a very good job of being second I'm
WNBA news while we're in Collegeason, because how could you
write like the college worth landscape is just incredibly vast
and there's so many interesting stories, and you know, just
focusing in on the top twenty five is a herculean
task in and of itself. And then we talked about
the tournament and all of these schools that are you know,
making noise. So ideally, that's why newsrooms build out staffs of.
Speaker 6 (37:15):
Writers, you know, who can do things.
Speaker 7 (37:17):
We have we have three, so that's you know, more,
I would say than some, but not necessarily enough to
cover all of the things that are happening in women's basketball.
There is some overlap, right, Like you talk to a
lot of college coaches who know things about things that
are happening with their former players who are in the
pros and vice versa, and just having conversations with people
(37:39):
in the loop.
Speaker 6 (37:39):
Like everybody is sort.
Speaker 7 (37:40):
Of in this space where like they can't go to
something right, Like they all have to be plugged in
on things that are happening at the pro, international, and
college level at the same time. So it helps that
everybody sort of having the same conversations and trying to
be as plugged in as possible to every little thing.
But that doesn't make it any easier, Like there's just
too much, too many news items happening, especially this year
(38:01):
when the WNBF season is going to be so pivital
to like the future of the league itself, Like it
seems almost impossible to think about, like, oh, ucl is
playing Tennessee at LA, should I go to that camera
like be focused on.
Speaker 6 (38:14):
On CBA negotiations.
Speaker 7 (38:16):
But yeah, I think we are reaching a point where
like national WNBA reporters make sense independent of college just
because all of the things that are happening on the
off season, and then just the fact that the season
is going to stretch so much longer, right, Like we're
talking about the WNBA season next year that no matter
when it starts, even if it starts on time, is
going to extend into November because of the World Cup.
(38:36):
That's going to you know, create a gap in the
middle of the regular season. And that means like we're
not even talking about like a theoretical like oh, I
have to go straight from college or WM to college,
Like there's literally going to be an overlap of games
the WNB in college, And with how much popular the
league is getting, with how much more of a profile
the players have during the off season where there's actually
a demand for their stories when they're not in season,
(38:57):
I do think it's going to be something where, you know,
people are going to want to know about what's happening
in the WNBA.
Speaker 6 (39:03):
Even when the games aren't happening.
Speaker 7 (39:04):
And yeah, I think it's the same thing with college right,
Like so many of the college writers I know, they
go like from basketball and then they end up covering
football or other college sports like during those off seasons,
and there's so much news during the college off season.
Really think about all the transfer portal stuff and recruiting,
and I mean it's both of these seasons are NonStop
and the fact that like they just sort of lead
(39:25):
in one into the other is is great for fans
if you were interested in women's basketbyeh.
Speaker 6 (39:29):
But it's a lot.
Speaker 2 (39:30):
It's a lot, a lot for reporters.
Speaker 1 (39:33):
So if you had a clone and there was one
thread you could be pulling right now to send your
clone to work on something, maybe people aren't talking enough
about that you wish they were something you wish you
could really dig into.
Speaker 2 (39:43):
What would it be?
Speaker 7 (39:44):
I mean, there's all of these college stories that I
want to tell right now, but like when am I
supposed to report that, you know, I mean there's like
a Kid Mulkey story that I still think it needs
to be told that you know, we're teased off last year,
but something that I would love to, you know, spend.
Speaker 6 (39:58):
Some time on.
Speaker 7 (39:58):
And yet here I am at the time WNB Finals
until basically the start of LSU season. So you know,
we'll keep checking along, but hopefully that there's just more
resources come forward.
Speaker 1 (40:10):
Yes, well, y'all are killing it over at the Athletic really,
and the podcast is so great.
Speaker 2 (40:14):
I know we've had Ben on a couple of times.
Speaker 1 (40:16):
We'll get the rest of the crew on at some point,
but keep it up and we're looking forward to the
coverage of game three.
Speaker 6 (40:21):
Yeah, thanks so much for the invite.
Speaker 5 (40:24):
Thanks again to Sabrina for taking the time.
Speaker 2 (40:26):
We got to take another break.
Speaker 1 (40:28):
When we come back, brush and give me twenty.
Speaker 2 (40:37):
Welcome back slices.
Speaker 1 (40:38):
We love that you're listening, but we want you to
get in the game every day too, So here's our
good game play of the day. It's an easy one.
Follow Sabrina on social media. We'll link to her Blue
Sky and Instagram in the show notes. And we always
love to hear from you, so hit us up on
email good game at wondermedianetwork dot com or leave us
a voicemail at eight seven two two four fifty seventy
and don't forget to subscribe, rate and review. It's easy well.
(41:00):
Electric Toothbrushes rating thirty two out of thirty two. Clean
Teeth Review producer Alex just told me she's joined the
magical world of electric toothbrushes. And first of all, all
you folks out there still using regular toothbrush, you don't
know what you're missing, so get on board.
Speaker 2 (41:16):
Better late than never.
Speaker 5 (41:18):
But also the talk of electric toothbrushes.
Speaker 1 (41:20):
Reminded me of like fifteen years ago when I interviewed
WNBA legend Lisa Leslie, and I asked her about staying
fit and active in retirement, and she told me that
she knows that her electric toothbrush timer is two minutes,
so in the morning, when she's brushing her teeth, she
does two minutes of squats, and at night, when she
brushes her teeth, she does two minutes of lunges. And
(41:40):
I proceeded to think, Wow, that's why Lisa Leslie is
who she is and.
Speaker 2 (41:43):
I'm just a NARP.
Speaker 1 (41:45):
So I thought, well, I'm going to start my lunges
and squats when I brush my teeth. But I didn't
have an electric toothbrush, and I immediately stopped doing it
after two days because I forgot. But today, having been
reminded of Lisa's practice and now owning an electric toothbrush,
I commit to trying again. So squats and lundes for
me as well, at least for the next two weeks.
We'll see if it sticks. Now it's your turn, slices,
(42:06):
rate and review. Thanks for listening, See you tomorrow.
Speaker 2 (42:09):
Good game.
Speaker 1 (42:10):
Sabrina Good Game NWSL coaches, proving us right that the
handshake lines sometimes.
Speaker 2 (42:15):
Ain't for handshakes.
Speaker 1 (42:16):
Thank you is absolutely what Yakobsen and Kunratz said to
each other. Good Game with Sarah Spain is an iHeart
women's sports production in partnership with Deep Blue Sports and Entertainment.
You can find us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you get your podcasts. Production by Wonder Media Network,
our producers are Alex Azzie and Misha Jones. Our executive
(42:38):
producers are Christina Everett, Jesse Katz, Jenny Kaplan, and Emily Rutterer.
Our editors are Emily Rutterer, Britney Martinez, Grace Lynch, and
Gianna Palmer. Our associate producer is Lucy Jones. Production assistance
from Avery Loftis and I'm Your Host Sarah Spain
Welcome to Good Game with Sarah Spain, where we don't
need lip readers to know that a couple of yous
were thrown in an NWSL handshake line this weekend.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
It's Tuesday, October seventh.
Speaker 1 (00:09):
And on today's show, we'll be chatting with Athletic Women's
Basketball staff writer and co host of the No Off
Season podcast, Sabrina Merchant about what she witnessed in games
one and two of the WNBA Finals in Vegas, whether
we should be reading more into Alisa Thomas's hand injury
based on her handles, the cost benefit of letting Asia
Wilson eat, and what to expect next in the ongoing
WNBACBA negotiations. Plus coming together to align the women's hockey calendar,
(00:35):
plastic confidence, and the boys are fighting. It's all coming
up right after this welcome back slices, Here's what you
need to know today. Let's start with hockey and some
joint news from the PWHL and the International Ice Hockey
(00:55):
Federation AKAHF. You may recall during an episode week we
discussed how the PWHL calendar for the upcoming season doesn't
include a break for the Women's World Championship, An annual
tournament that has historically happened in April, and that there
still weren't dates or a host city for next year's tournament,
while on Monday, the IIHF announced that, thanks to a
(01:15):
collaboration with the PWHL, beginning in twenty twenty six, the
Women's World Championship will be held in November instead of April,
and that next year's tournament will be played in Denmark.
For its part, the PWHL has agreed to adjust the
league's schedule to start later so the two competitions won't clash.
The IIHF also announced that, beginning in twenty twenty seven,
the organization will stage a European Women's Championship in April
(01:37):
of each year. Given that the majority of p WHL
players are still American and Canadian, this European tournament will
allow for more international growth of the game without having
a huge impact on the PWHL. To quote friend of
the Show and Queen of all Things Women's Soccer, Meg Linahan, wait,
international governing bodies and pro leagues can just align their
calendars because they think it will improve the sport. What
(01:59):
at God's yeah, somebody get FIFA and the NWSL on
the horn, speaking of the NWSL and a moment we
wanted to highlight from.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
This past weekend's competition.
Speaker 1 (02:09):
You remember, in yesterday's show we mentioned a draw between
the Chicago Stars and Utah Royals that saw the Stars
fight back from down two nil to tie the game
to to and earn a point, while Stars interim head
coach Anders Yakobsen and Royals coach Jimmy Kohnrots could be
seen yelling at each other after the final whistles sounded,
with players and staff members clearly making an effort.
Speaker 2 (02:28):
To calm the situation.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
We wanted to get a little more information before he
told you about this, and it's still not clear exactly
what sparked the dispute or who started yelling first, based
on the game broadcast and the videos we watch, but
both men were asked about it during their postgame press conferences.
First here, Stars coach Yakobsen in the postgame take a listen.
Speaker 3 (02:48):
There's motions and when you end the game, I think,
and in this case, I think the Chicago Stars today
did many good things. I think the team deserved to win,
and I think we created enough of chances during maybe
this seventy five until the seventy five minute, But there
was some incidents during the game which made the game
(03:11):
a bit difficult for us, I think, and when the
game then is clear, we have too too, which I
wanted the team today to not leave this pitch without
any points, and I was just emotional for me seeing
that they did it, and those emotions were there. Maybe
(03:35):
I should have handled a little bit better, But I
also think sometimes I think it's important for every person
to reflect on in general in life, what kind of
values you'd want to follow, and I tried to follow
mine today, which made it a bit rough, I think.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
When asked directly what thing Utah did to inspire his anger,
Yakobsen seemed to intimate there was some funny business on
a few occasions after Royals players went down with the injury.
So it's not entirely clear, but my read is that
he believed Utah was trying to delay or interrupt game
flow to hold on to their lead, you know, prevent
the Stars from getting into a rhythm or come back.
(04:18):
As for Coon Rots, he was also asked about the
moment take a listen, just.
Speaker 4 (04:23):
Think there is a form of decency to talk at people,
and when people start shouting at me for things that
are completely out of my control, I think that's just
when you lose decency as a person and you lose
also credibility in my opinion as a coach. We all
get emotional, we all know what the pressure is on
the game. But shouting to me for the fact that
it was a concussion, they were in possession, we didn't
give possession back. I think that's a bit mad to
(04:44):
start shouting about, and like, if that's bothering you for
thirty minutes, then I'm afraid you're focusing on the wrong thing.
And I think again, I was the one that was
actually ironically shouting at the official that was their ball.
It was not even claiming that it was our ball.
So yeah, again, like I think, if you just lose
decency start shout in like a dog, that doesn't take
well to be done.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
As it was just a.
Speaker 4 (05:05):
Form of emotional stability that we only need in this league.
Speaker 5 (05:08):
I think a lot of talk of decency here.
Speaker 1 (05:10):
Shout out to Taylor Vincent for posting videos of the
incident and the postgame quotes on Blue Sky. Will link
to those in the show notes. Also shout out to
Star's assistant coach Ela Mazar, who somehow ended up calming
down and restraining both of the coaches her own and
the opposing teams at different moments during that postgame. TIF
you the real mvp Ella and some news from the
(05:31):
World of Barbie where they're rolling out some more athlete dolls.
In celebration of International Day of the Girl on October eleventh,
Barbie has introduced a team of dolls honoring four international
rugby athletes, including our USA Eagles Queen Alone o Mar Permettel.
The Alone Omar doll, available for purchase next year, will
feature quote a new Barbie body sculpt designed to reflect
(05:54):
the build of many strong athletes.
Speaker 2 (05:56):
End quote.
Speaker 1 (05:57):
Mar told Reuters quote Barbie's are the ultimate image of
beauty and femininity, and so that's what we grew up
seeing every day. What I want is that when girls
play with this and they see my Barbie and the
broad shoulders and the big arms, that can kind of
shape their views of beauty as well.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
End quote.
Speaker 1 (06:12):
As part of their International Day of the Girl rollout,
Barbie also conducted a study across the US, UK, France,
and New Zealand, the home countries of the team Barbie
Rugby role models to better understand what holds girls back,
both from their perspective and their parents' perspective. Among the findings,
one in three girls disengages from sports by age fourteen,
primarily due to body confidence concerns, self doubt, and a
(06:35):
lack of visible female role models. Only fifty three percent
of girls ages six to fourteen feel confident while playing sports.
The leading reason for a lack of confidence is fear
of making mistakes, and forty eight percent of parents pointed
to social attitudes that discourage girls from sports as a
major barrier. Will put a link to the matel release
in the show notes if you want to read more
(06:55):
about the study. Also links to check out Alona's doll
and her work with Barbie. We got to take a
quick break when we come back. My conversation with Sabrina Merchant.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
Joining us now.
Speaker 1 (07:13):
She's a women's basketball staff writer for The Athletic and
co host of No off Season, The Athletic Women's Basketball podcast,
with previous stops at Espionation and Dime Magazine. A ducalum,
she was on Jeopardy and not the easy celebrity version,
the real one.
Speaker 2 (07:27):
It's Sabrina Merchant.
Speaker 5 (07:28):
Hi, Sabrina, Hi Sarah, thanks for having me.
Speaker 2 (07:31):
You're welcome.
Speaker 1 (07:31):
I need to talk about Jeopardy first. That is definitely
a life dream of mine. Was it everything you imagined?
Speaker 6 (07:37):
Yes?
Speaker 4 (07:37):
And no.
Speaker 7 (07:37):
I mean I got to go on when it was
still hosted by Alex Jabreck, which was definitely amazing, big
bucket list item. It was unfortunately during the pandemic, so
I couldn't invite anybody to come watch at the time.
Speaker 6 (07:49):
It was just an empty soundstage.
Speaker 7 (07:51):
Had to sit in the Wheel of Fortune studio like
while we're waiting for the other games to finish, and
you're not allowed touch the wheel, which is a real downer.
And I was very concerned that if I did touch
the wheel, I wouldn't no longer be allowed to play Jeopardy.
Speaker 6 (08:02):
But yeah, it was. It was really fun.
Speaker 7 (08:04):
I went up against a super champ, so longer than
a game, but hey, you know, second place is better
than fourth place?
Speaker 1 (08:12):
Was the buzzer as hard as it allegedly is because
a lot of people say, oh, I knew all the answers,
I just couldn't.
Speaker 6 (08:17):
Buzz No, I did not know as many answers as
the game.
Speaker 1 (08:22):
Still amazing, still amazing. Let's talk WNBA Finals. You were
in Vegas for games one and two, so let's start
with the vibe there. What did it feel like being
in Michelobaltra for those two Aces wins. Certainly the crowd
shots made it look pretty fiery.
Speaker 7 (08:38):
Yeah, it felt very similar, honestly to the last time
I was here for the WNBA Finals in twenty twenty three.
A lot of confidence from the fans, just an expectation
that their team is going to win, which admittedly was
probably not the case back in June and July.
Speaker 6 (08:52):
But they've gotten there.
Speaker 7 (08:52):
The swagger's back, Like everyone in Vegas feels like this
is happening. Definitely a weird thing to have a game
start at five pm on a Friday local time, But
vibes are really good, you know, Vegas, the aces are
super chill. They really are very comfortable with who they
have now. The fans are locked in. I mean, I
don't think they've seen so the Fever beat them at
home for the first game of the Semis, but otherwise
(09:14):
they haven't seen their team lose since August, so you know,
just just rolling here right.
Speaker 1 (09:19):
Yeah, they're up two games to none and what I
thought heading in was a stacked Mercury team is looking
pretty meek so far. So how are the Aces so
effectively shutting down in particular Alissa Thomas?
Speaker 6 (09:31):
Yeah, you and me both right.
Speaker 7 (09:33):
I saw the Mercury beat both of last seasons WNBA finalists,
including the Minnesota Lynks, who basically disrect through the entire
regular season and had a lot of respect and appreciation
for what they accomplished. And yet they come up against
the Aces who have just had their number all year.
You know, the Aces have beaten them in every game
that Asia Wilson has played this season, And like what
you said, it comes right down to Alyssa Thomas. You know,
(09:53):
they're throwing hard doubles at her every time she gets
the ball, really having their guards swipe in to disrupt
her handle, and it's just making her very uncomfortable, which
is not a position that you see Alis thomasin. Like
she's the one who creates the space, right, who makes
other people uncomfortable and bounce off of her, And yet
the Aces have been able to crowd her take away
the middle of the floor, and it's sort of revealing
(10:15):
the fact that, like the Mercury might be deep, but
they are all players who are kind of dependent on
Alissa Thomas to create for them, and without her as
this folk rome, you know, center of gravity within the
Phoenix Mercury offense, it's just a lot of people trying
to take contested shots and it looks not as pleasant
as you would hope for if you're a Mercury fan.
Speaker 1 (10:37):
Yeah, it's really just been Kalie, a copper who's looked
to be in rhythm. And you're right, it all comes
back to Alissa Thomas who in previous series, even against
good teams, there was a freedom of movement, it felt like,
and she was dictating both the defense and offensive sides
of the of the floor what the Mercury are doing.
But to your point, she's getting doubled inside the A
said nine steals and six blocks in game two. They
(10:58):
made it really difficult. And then you mentioned on your show,
which is fantastic. By the way, I feel like I
know we met very briefly once, but I feel like
I know you because you're in my ears all the time.
Speaker 5 (11:07):
You guys do such a fantastic job.
Speaker 1 (11:09):
But you mentioned on your show at reacting to Game
two how much the defense for the Mercury has.
Speaker 2 (11:15):
Been impacted by their failures on offense.
Speaker 1 (11:17):
They turn the ball over, the Aces get going and
they can't get back and set up either, so it's
like they can't really get set on either side of
the floor. Why have the Aces been so able to
control tempo in this series?
Speaker 7 (11:29):
Yeah, I think a lot of it is because they're
creating those live ball turnovers. Right during Game one, when
Vegas was down for a good chunk of that game, right,
they still only turned the ball over I think seven
times as a team, and Phoenix so much of their
tempo is created by turnovers. A less Thomas getting out
of the open court even off of makes right, like
dictating that pace, and the Aces just a lot of
(11:51):
dead balls, right, and they're very disciplined at taking care
of the ball. They don't let you get out in transition,
and that's been affecting Phoenix's ability to get out and
go and really up their offense, like get their other
people in rhythm other than Alyssa Thomas, and it goes
the other way too, right, Like the fact that Phoenix
can't take care of the ball themselves is hurting them
in defensively, and Vegas is a hard enough team to
(12:13):
stop in the half court, right, Like with Chelsea Gray,
the way that she's playing, some of those times that
she had in Game two, or just I don't even
want to say vin to Chelsea Gray, because as long
as she's passed her prime, you know, she's just like
a perfect point guard for this day and age.
Speaker 6 (12:26):
In the WNBA.
Speaker 7 (12:27):
She's just creates so many openings in the half court
for her teammates. Like one of the passes she threw
in Melissa Smith, I think I'm still not sure like
where the angle came from, but like obviously it was
right on point right at the.
Speaker 6 (12:38):
End of the shock.
Speaker 7 (12:39):
Like, but yeah, like everything Phoenix is doing is just
like a negative feedback loop into the next right, Like,
they can't stop Vegas and that prevents them from getting
out in transition. They can't control the ball themselves and
that hurts their defense. And like, if you were to
pick one side of the ball that I think they're
probably more disappointed in, it's that they can't do anything
defensively in the half court against Las Vegas, and that
was really supposed to be their bread and butter. Right,
(13:00):
they were able to stop New York, they were able
to stop Minnesota. Their offense has been the lesser side
of the ball for them all season, and the fact that,
like the Aces, I mean, we should have seen this coming, right.
They have its great, they have Jackie Young, the ad
Asra Wilson, they have all of these offensive weapons who
have been there on the stage before it together and
the Mercury just haven't had any answers for them on
that endother floor.
Speaker 1 (13:20):
Yeah, the Aces are finally putting it together. This is
a team that at times looked unfocused or weren't being themselves,
And so I think there were some questions then because
of how the Mercury blew through two finalists from last
year to get here. But I think we spent all
season talking about how the Aces are nothing without Asia,
and perhaps we also should have anticipated that the Mercury
might be nothing without Thomas.
Speaker 2 (13:41):
Does the series.
Speaker 1 (13:42):
Hinge on her being dominant again both as a facilitator
and as a scorer herself, or is it possible to
see a game where they ride a hot Khalia Copper
or Sachusabuli Or does it ultimately feel like without Thomas
being able to be who she is, there's no chance
for them?
Speaker 6 (13:59):
Yeah?
Speaker 7 (13:59):
So Cock her feels like the only player who really
is able to get her offense independently of Lyssa Thomas.
When we saw a lot of those drives in the
basket and came to the problem with Kay is that
she's guarding Jackie Young on the other end, and everything
she's doing is basically neutralized, right, And I have aultmate
respect for both of them, Like they're not gonna be
able to stop much of the other. Like it's they're
just too good at getting into the paint, right, So
where are the advantage is going to come from? And
(14:20):
I think that's where you need Alyssa Thomas. And like
Elyssa Thomas is such a specific kind of player, they
built her team. They built the McCree team basically in
her image, right. They got shooters around her, defenders around her,
but they've also gotten a lot of complimentary players around her.
And I just don't know what other buttons they have
to push if Alyssa Thomas isn't dictating the flow of
the game like they talked about. So I think that
(14:42):
that's just like the number one thing they have to
get a list Thomas going. I know she's been very
adamant that like nothing is wrong with her hand. She's
perfectly fine. Her handle would suggest otherwise, Like, I don't
think she's ever been that loose with the ball. But
I mean, whatever adjustments the Murker you're going to make
have to start with getting Thomas in the middle of
the floor and and space to operate, because that was
the whole thesis of this roster. And I like, if
(15:03):
that's not going to happen, I just I don't know
where else you.
Speaker 2 (15:06):
Look, Right, Well, that's what I was gonna ask.
Speaker 1 (15:08):
They got six six or eight points off the bench
in Game two.
Speaker 6 (15:12):
Right, and a couple of those were just in garbage time.
Speaker 1 (15:14):
Yeah, right, So who needs to step up? And you
know it is something like Sammy Witcomb being injured going
to be an issue.
Speaker 6 (15:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 7 (15:22):
I mean, I thought Sammy Wickham and Jewel Lloyd was
like an interesting pivot coming into this series because you know,
former Seattle Storm teammates, says who won a couple titles together.
Speaker 6 (15:28):
They've both been very effective off the bench.
Speaker 7 (15:30):
Sammy Wickham hit like to this point the shot of
the playoffs right to have that Game two come back
against Minnesota, and she has just been very limited.
Speaker 6 (15:38):
Every shot she takes looks rushed.
Speaker 7 (15:40):
Jewel looks completely comfortable, right, Like just that that hasn't
even been a matchup, right, like Jewels convincingly dominating the
six woman discussion there and then like Dana Evans and
to want to Bonner, Right, Dana has been so much
more effective than to want to Bonner, And I don't
think anybody would predicted that coming in right, liked Wana
hasn't been able to make much of an impact defensively,
Dana being like ten inches shorter, and Wanna Bonner is
(16:00):
just really like kind of like a knack, right, She's
just like getting into Dewana's space.
Speaker 1 (16:05):
Did you see when Dowana tried to like bump her
and she bounced off of her because do Wanna is
so lithe and lean she literally tried to like show
like be like oh I got you, little one, and
then bounced off of her and Dana Evans did not
move like Okay, it's crazy, ok yeah.
Speaker 7 (16:20):
I mean if you're not winning that matchup, like Satan,
Jewel is one thing, Like Jewell is a former scoring
champion in this league. Just because her role is a
little different now doesn't mean she's still not capable. But
like all due respect, to Dana Evans. Do Wanna Bonner
is the third leading score in WNBA history, like one
of the leading scorers in playoff history, and she has
not been able to make an impact whatsoever. So I
think do Wanna's got to be a lot better. I
do wonder if we see like any bit of Colaonnie
(16:43):
Brown in this series, because all of the options on
Asia Wilson have just like either you're tiring Alyssa Thomas
out when you really need her to do work offensively,
or you're putting like Natasha mac Bonner or kat Westbeldonner
who just don't have a prayer really like, you get
Asia in the middle of the floor and she can
see right over them. So maybe that's something that we
see from the Mercury, just because you can't go down
(17:03):
through nothing right.
Speaker 1 (17:04):
Like wait, maybe just throw some bodies at her that
can take some fouls and just physically make it hard
for her. You know, we had Cindy Brunston on the
show yesterday. She knows the Mercury very well, being the
TV play by play voice.
Speaker 2 (17:16):
For a number of years.
Speaker 1 (17:17):
She said, just let Asia eat and see who else
bes you Do you agree with that?
Speaker 7 (17:23):
I mean I don't love the idea of like letting
Asia get thirty eight points in the game, like it's
kind of Storm did.
Speaker 6 (17:27):
But then again, you know that happened in.
Speaker 7 (17:29):
An elimination game that Seattle only lost by one, So
I do think that, like it's it's not necessarily an
easier task, but it's like a more clarifying task to
just try to stop Ada Wilson. So it simplifies like
the decision making process for your defense, so at least
you're not making mistakes and considering everybody else they've been
able to let get off.
Speaker 6 (17:48):
Maybe that is the play here.
Speaker 1 (17:49):
Just let Asia go didn't work in the third quarter
a Game two with Jackie Young playing the way she did, though,
So I guess if that's a small sample size there.
Speaker 2 (17:58):
What can the Mercury learn.
Speaker 1 (17:59):
From what the Storm and Fever did to push the
Aces to the brink in their previous series, Because it's
it's been surprising to me that the Storm and Fever
made it so much harder for the Aces.
Speaker 2 (18:10):
I mean, the.
Speaker 1 (18:10):
Aces looked less, focus, less in rhythm, They didn't have
their swagger. Is that something you can go back and say, hey,
pull this that Seattle did or.
Speaker 2 (18:19):
Do this that Indiana did.
Speaker 7 (18:21):
I thought the first round Seattle just has a lot
better interior defense with Don Malonga. I think mag mcgor
like that size actually had something of an impact on
the Aces. And I think something that Beggy Hammond has
been talking about all playoffs long is just her team
really felt that physicality from Seattle.
Speaker 6 (18:38):
They felt it from Indiana.
Speaker 7 (18:39):
I think Indiana is the most instructive option here because like,
let's just call it space bad. I think Phoenix is
less talented than the Aces are right now, Like just
what you got four gold medalists, you know who are
in their closing five, Like it's just it's hard to
match that level of star power.
Speaker 6 (18:53):
But Indiana, what they were able to do is they.
Speaker 7 (18:55):
Just were so disruptive, like Lexi Hell going through every
screen Odyssey sam Is picking up like ninety four feet
the entire time, Leah Boston just moving Asia Wilson out
of her preferred spots. They were so strong and like
to the spot and they just didn't give away any inch.
And you're not feeling the Phoenix Mercury at all, right,
Like Sasu Sabli is not like a physical presence. Kalia
(19:15):
Kopperet even hasn't been a physical presence, Like I think
that's where it starts. Like on the defensive end, they
just need to be more disruptive. They need to be
defending for the full length of the court. They can't
let any any ball get passed half court really without
like five or six seconds at least coming off of
the shot clock, just to try to disrupt that rhythm
a little bit. I think Indiana was so good at that,
And honestly, like the more I watched this series, I'm
(19:37):
just like in awe of what Stephanie why was able
to accomplish with this imbortam and how how hard they played,
Like Phoenix is not playing as hard as.
Speaker 1 (19:46):
Indiana played, Like they're missing Lexi Hall for one, who
seemed to be everywhere on the court, getting every rebound,
fighting for every loose ball. There was like a heart
and a fight there that it's surprising not to see
from a Mercury team that was physical, was.
Speaker 6 (20:00):
Able, and he's led by Alissa Thomas.
Speaker 1 (20:03):
Yes, who's literally a football player on a basketball court.
It's been wild to see how their identity has sort
of disappeared so far. But we've got a nice long
break Game three on Wednesday. You have to think that
helps the Mercury. And then you've got an Aces team
that you mentioned on your show lost Game three in
twenty twenty two and twenty twenty three, and those were
not seven game series. This is the first ever seven
(20:25):
game final series, which means that the Mercury maybe can
take a little more hope if they grab Game three.
Do anticipate a little letdown for the Aces when they're
in hostile territory on Wednesday?
Speaker 7 (20:36):
I don't think it's so much of a letdown for
the Aces as I think the Mercury will just be
really amped playing in Phoenix, knowing that they need this
when role players always tend to play a little bit
better at home. You know, I would expect a couple
of those Sami Wigums threes to start going in when
they're in Phoenix, you know, maybe to want to Bonner finds.
Speaker 6 (20:51):
A little bit of life.
Speaker 7 (20:51):
But you know, the Aces, like we talked about the streak, right,
they won sixteen games in a row, They've been very
up and down in the playoffs, Like they haven't been
the Las Vegas Aces for more than two games in
a row, which I think is why I mean at
least from my perspective, I thought the Mercury had a
chance in this series because as good as the Aces
can be, they just weren't often at that level during
(21:13):
the playoffs. And I'm beginning to think it was more
an Indiana perspective than it was an actual Las Vegas thing.
But I don't know if the Aces like have shown
the ability to play that many good games in a
row during the playoffs, at least defensively, and if the
Mercury can get some shots to fall. Like Becky Hammon
always talks about closing out series on the road, I
know it's the thing that she likes to do. It's
gonna be, I think, little bit harder to get it
(21:33):
done in four, maybe like six, with the more apt
to finishing for that series. But yeah, it's not that
I expect the Aces to be like that much worse
in Game three. I just think that Phoenix will find
like an extra reservoir, if not in Game three, at
least in game four. It I don't think this is
going to be a sweep, but it is looking more
lopsided than I anticipated to start the series.
Speaker 1 (21:54):
Yeah, I agree, and I think you know, there's that
old adage series doesn't start until a road teams. Right
that the Aces were supposed to win the first two
games at home, and in theory that Mercury are supposed
to hold serve on their home court, So we'll see
how that goes in game three. What do you think
the biggest adjustments are going to be And how do
you think Nate Tibbets has coached so far in this playoffs,
(22:14):
whether that's use of challenges, whether that's rotation and personnel.
What have you seen from him so far and what
do you expect to change potentially in game three.
Speaker 7 (22:22):
Well, I think the number one adjustment has to be
just finding a way to get a Lista Thomas free
from this pressure. They've got to create some space for her.
I thought they kind of conceded the point against Vegas
in the second game where Alysta Thomas was so dominant
during the first three quarters of Game one and then
they go to that zone and it denies her the
middle of the floor, and then they just stopped running
pick and roll with her in game two, and I
was so curious as to why they let Vegas win
(22:43):
that point. So I do wonder what Nate Tibbets is
going to do two free at a little bit more
in game three. I think he's He's been pretty good
throughout the course of the playoffs. I thought the adjustments
that they made against Minnesota, the pressure that they ratcheted
up against the Links, are really good. Series is a
little bit different, just because Twoey was so compromised in
Game two and then I don't really know what was
(23:04):
happening with the rest of their team down the stretch
it which just wasn't a fully realized version of the
liberty that we've become accustomed to. But you know, Nate admitted,
first of all, like he made a mistake down the
end of Game four by not calling a time out
on that final position when they wanted to get a
game time three point look up. And this is his
first finals, right, Like not just his first finals, this
is his first real playoff run, like they made the
playoffs last year. But it was a very quick two
(23:27):
games sweep at the hands of the Links. And it's
not like he has a lot of experience as a
head coach on this stage, so it's a growing experience.
Like not everyone is Becky Hammond and comes in and
just wins dial in their first year right. Admittedly, like
it's a good example to draw from, but I don't
think it should be the expectation for anyone, especially since
Phoenix is such a new team come together, Like obviously
(23:47):
they seem to want to have a lot of history together.
But you know, Sammy Wickham's never played with them, Khalia
Copper's never played with them, Soto's never played with them. Like,
They's just a whole group of players who were learning
each other for the first time, and they've done remarkably
well to get to this point. But I think, like
I've like NAT's use of timeouts quite well, Like he
always seems to have one in his back pocket at
the end of the game, and yet he always has
like the right feel of when to stop a run
(24:09):
or when to just like makes a couple of mistakes
that he says in real time. I wish they would
go to the bench like a little bit more, just
because it has been very limited production from them. Like
I do wonder what like Alexi help could do if
you just wanted a little bit of point of attack defense,
or what Kalani could do in the middle of you know,
the paint, just like a body on Asia Wilson, you know,
(24:30):
so maybe we'll see more of that, but I think
like Nate's been very clear, like this is his rotation,
this is the group that got them there, This is
that he's going to ride with, and maybe that gives
them more confidence going into Game three, knowing that they
have so much trust from their head coach.
Speaker 1 (24:44):
I want to ask you quickly, there's kind of been
an obsession with Nate Tibbett's salary because he became the
highest paid coach in the league despite not having a
lot of experience and was a man and so of
course there's a lot of discussion and on the show
we've sometimes poked fun at him. I have said that
he should no longer be the butt of Jakes based
on the job he's done with this team. But you know,
the whole girl dad thing in the salary thing still
(25:05):
sticks with some people looking at you, Producer Alex. So
between that pr surrounding is hiring and everything else and
what we've seen from the last two years and his
run to the finals, do we think that we should.
Speaker 2 (25:16):
Stop making fun of him?
Speaker 5 (25:17):
Do we think he's worthy of the league highest salary?
Speaker 1 (25:19):
Where do we stand on making fun of Nick Tibbets
for being a girl dad who makes a lot of money.
Speaker 7 (25:24):
You know, the podium when they announced his hiring is
just really hard to get over. You know, those three
dudes sitting there announcing the Sea or the Phoenix. Mercury
was that it was just a hard book. But I
think makes it a really good job. And I think
Khalia Kapper likes him, which is a good enough endorsement
for how he's done in Phoenix. Obviously, listen, Thomas takes
really highly of him. There's no reason he should be
the highest paid coach in WNBA. Like how has Becky
(25:45):
Hammond's contract happen renegotiated to get her on top of
that number?
Speaker 6 (25:48):
Like Mark Davis, what do we do?
Speaker 1 (25:49):
At the same time, I do think like when teams
are willing to pay money to have coach a good
thing they want it's a good thing. We would love
for it to be the women, and maybe women have color.
But you know what, if a white dude needs to
get the ball rolling and the rest of them can
negotiate based on his dollar amount, Let's spin it positive,
as I always try to do. Let's switch gears for
(26:12):
a minute to the bigger picture. Surrounding the w right now,
which is the Katy Engelbert versus Nefisa Kalier beef.
Speaker 2 (26:19):
It's the CBA negotiations.
Speaker 1 (26:21):
And you've reported about this whole CBA negotiation process, including
that the players have talked about the WNBA quote unquote stalling.
It's easy to see even from the outside that players
in the league don't seem to be in lockstep. But
I wonder what specific issues you've heard players actually cite
as being important to them in the upcoming CBA that
maybe they're not feeling like they're getting a lot of
reciprocation on.
Speaker 7 (26:42):
Yeah. I mean, it's interesting because so much of the
discussion has been about revenue share and salary, and that's
just the number one sticking point, Like they can't move
beyond anything if that is not part of the deal, right,
an equitable share of the revenue, like whatever percentage that
ends up being, I don't think it's gonna end up
looking like the NBA percentage. Fifty fifty just doesnt seem
like it's on the table, but definitely more than the
incremental targeted revenue sharing system that the WNBA has right now,
(27:05):
which has not yet kicked in for the players. So
all of the revenue that the league has generated over
the last three years and this monumental period of growth
has not made it back towards that portion of the league.
So it's kind of hard to even get beyond that issue.
Just like there's no future of the league without that.
But no other things that the union has talked about
are pensions, right, want to make sure that retired players
(27:27):
are served, which has just not been the case in
the WNBA so far.
Speaker 6 (27:31):
Maternity and family planning benefits.
Speaker 7 (27:33):
You know, we've seen a lot more parents in the
league than before, and that has been the result. I
think of some changes in policies where like, remember when
if you were pregnant used to have to be suspended
and you weren't allowed to get paid from your team.
Speaker 6 (27:44):
It's like, why would anybody do that?
Speaker 7 (27:46):
And now you see a team like, you know, Shan
Parker tires gets to join the Aces and sit the
whole season up until the final month, and like they
welcome her back, and like that just wasn't possible in
the league. But there's still more room to grow there
where like players can bring caretakers on the road them
and like get an extra room for their children and
you know whoever's watching their.
Speaker 1 (28:03):
Kids, and we're still trying to figure out exactly what
happened with d york A Hamby and the exactly right
not a problem.
Speaker 7 (28:09):
Yeah, the fact that the aces are you know, in
the middle of this again is just a lovely little
bit of a coincidence or not, who knows, but that's
on the list. I know Satu's actually talking about the
fact that, like they haven't been paid since September fifteenth,
they're working in the postseason, and like they're getting playoff
bonuses with those playoff bonesses are just like a fraction
of you know, a Commissioner's Cup bonus for example. So
(28:29):
just general like leveling out across the board and making
sure that there's minimum standards for therapists and you know,
massage therapists and you know, pets and everything like on
staff at all times, places for players to work out
during the off season. Like there's there's so much that
goes into be a DOMM player during the off season
(28:50):
that like they have to fund out of their own dime.
Like I remember Boomkay talking about just getting gym memberships
in Houston, like finding a way to you know, get
shots in during the off season that players would like
to get paid for at some point so that they're not,
you know, using their salary to help fund their off seasons.
Speaker 2 (29:09):
So much good stuff in there.
Speaker 1 (29:10):
I want to backtrack to one of the first things
you said, though, and explain it like we're five, just
for anyone who doesn't know the details of this. The
current CBA has a revenue share agreement in it, but
you mentioned that the players have not benefited by the recent.
Speaker 2 (29:22):
Rocket ship growth of the league. Why is that?
Speaker 5 (29:24):
Can you explain what they're hoping to change for the
next CBA.
Speaker 7 (29:28):
Yeah, so, just as simply as I can make this,
The way that the CBA created revenue share when it
was enacted in twenty twenty was there were these targets
that the league had to hit every year, and the
target goes up by twenty percent each season. So let's
say it started at I don't know, one hundred million
in twenty twenty, then the target in twenty twenty one
would be one hundred and twenty million, and so on
and so forth, and so you have the league has
(29:51):
to hit the cumulative target for that year, and then
any excess revenue gets put into a revenue sharing system.
Speaker 6 (29:57):
So because the.
Speaker 7 (29:58):
WNBA had basically no right venue in twenty twenty because
the pandemic season, and very limited revenue in twenty twenty
one because it was also a you know, social distancing.
People are barely coming back into arenas, A lot of
arenas weren't even selling tickets for the majority of that season.
They've just been behind the eight ball to hit these
targets over the last five years. So despite the fact
that they've gotten an enormous amount of revenue in twenty three,
(30:21):
twenty four, and twenty five, it just has not made
up for the deficit that was created back.
Speaker 1 (30:25):
Right, because it's cumulative, it's out restarting and hitting it
for a year.
Speaker 6 (30:28):
Got it exactly.
Speaker 7 (30:29):
You got to hit that cumulative target and that just
has never been hit. And then even when you do
hit the cumulative target, only thirty five percent ends up
going back to the players. And of that thirty five percent,
seventeen and a half percent goes into like the those
league marketing agreements versus seventeen and a half percent back
to the players themselves. But it's just like a ridiculous
number because salaries have gone up by about three percent
each year, and they're expecting the revenue to go up
(30:52):
by twenty percent each year, and then it has to
go up by more than twenty percent for revenue share
to come back to the players. So like, you look
at the growth of their salaries and you look at
the growth of the league's revenue, and they just don't
match up with one another.
Speaker 1 (31:06):
Yeah, how do you think the current tensions between Commissioner
Kathy Engelbert and a FISA Kllier and then all the
players who have now been supporting fees statements publicly might
impact negotiations beyond the awkwardness of Kathy seeming to be
on the firing line potentially while trying to do these negotiations,
you now also have a group of players that already
(31:28):
seemed pretty pissed and now have a fire lit under
their ass from a public conversation about being let down
by leadership as opposed to what was I think seemed
more intentional messaging from say the WNBPA and things like that,
you know, posting about how they weren't coming to an agreement.
Now it feels like sort of all bets are off
because everyone's just firing on social in interviews.
Speaker 7 (31:51):
You know, I do wonder how much the relationship between
the players and the leadership has actually changed, because it
seemed pretty contentious even before.
Speaker 6 (31:58):
And Ifisa Kllier went scorch strength in that exit interview.
Speaker 7 (32:01):
Like we know how bad it is now, but I
think the players are well aware of how they felt
about Kathy Engelbert and how the leaders have felt about
Gathy Anglbert before that.
Speaker 1 (32:07):
I just feel like when you say something though, and
then everyone agrees with you and egg you on and
a bunch of people are like yeah, fire, or you're
like yeah, you know, like you just feel a little
bit more in bold.
Speaker 6 (32:17):
And maybe Kathy didn't know how bad it.
Speaker 7 (32:19):
Was, yeah, yeah, yeah, there might have been some wilful
ignorance on her part of how the players felt about her.
That has just been disabused at this point because it's
very clear now how the players feel about her.
Speaker 2 (32:31):
Yeah.
Speaker 7 (32:31):
I I can't imagine it's gonna help negotiations, obviously, but
I don't know how much worse they could possibly get,
considering how far apart they are on these things at
this point. Like the point of the commissioner is to
be a shield for the owners, right, Like she takes
all of the public punching, so to speak, for the league,
and the owners get to make their money and not
have to do anything, and Kathy handles all of it.
(32:52):
And I think this is something that like Adam Silver,
for example, on the NBA has perfected pretty well. Like
the owners get to cash their checks and Adam Silver
gets to just be the public face who says silly
things and you know, is claimed to be too reactive,
and all everybody knows about him is that he has
like bro hugs everyone at the NBA Draft. But Kathy
now is like messing with the WNBA owners bottom lines, right, Like,
(33:12):
if there's not a season, then all of this money
that they but to be fair, like owners have actually
started to put some money into the WNBA, all this
money that they put back in is no longer going
to see return if like the season doesn't happen. So
this is where I wonder if like the NBA Board
of Governors starts to step in, or you know, Adam
Silver starts to apply some pressure on Kathy to just
get a deal done.
Speaker 6 (33:32):
Because the group of owners that.
Speaker 7 (33:33):
Owns the WNBA, like a lot of them are are
his owners too, right, Like in the NBA Board of Governors,
there's so many that are NBA owners WNBO owners, and
part of that capital raised like triple dipping in terms
of that WNBA pie and it's getting embarrassing and it's
affecting their bottom lines, and that's when things start.
Speaker 2 (33:50):
To happen well.
Speaker 1 (33:52):
And I said in yesterday show, like I have a
real fear for this league being going in a direction
that feels opposition to so much of what else is
happening in society, and at this very pivotal moment of growth,
fighting itself. Every single other piece of society right now
feels like it's pushing against women making money, getting appropriate
(34:14):
treatment in the office, being afforded respect, like everything else.
And then you've got this league that is like in
this gigantic moment of growth, that is cutting itself at
the knees because they can't come to agreement on how
to spend all the money that they're currently making.
Speaker 2 (34:29):
And I know it's not that simple, but there is
something to be said.
Speaker 1 (34:31):
I think, for no matter how bad the relationship was
before and how much the public was already on the
side of the players, how this particular incident has ratcheted
that up and made it probably even less likely to
come into meetings feeling like you want to shake hands
and get to work, being more pissed at the opposition
that you're trying to meet with and agree with. So
interesting to watch this continue to play out, and very
(34:52):
interesting to me to continue to have such little financial
transparency around the league when we're trying to figure out
from the outside exactly what's going on.
Speaker 2 (35:01):
Okay, so real quick, can you game plan it out
for us?
Speaker 1 (35:03):
If there isn't an agreement by October thirty first, how
might that disrupt the two expansion drafts and free agency?
Speaker 7 (35:09):
Yeah, so it kind of depends on whether they negotiate
an extension or just immediately go into a lockout on
October thirty first. If there's an extension, there could be
an opportunity to continue league business while the CBA is
being negotiated, So that could allow for the expansion drafts
like before the end of the calendar year, even if
a full CBA is not yet agreed upon.
Speaker 6 (35:28):
I don't think that's what's going to happen.
Speaker 7 (35:30):
I think these expansion drafts are going to be pushed
back into January like after or however long it takes
to work on a deal. My hope is it doesn't
take longer than the calendar year. But like obviously, things
are going terribly and just the general inventum doesn't feel great,
So my expectation would be that we're not going to
see expansion drafts, free agency draft lottery, or any of
that stuff until after a deal is I signed up
(35:51):
on knock on one all right.
Speaker 1 (35:53):
Finally, your podcast is called No off Season, and the
name is not hyperbole because there is now no off
season in women's soups got two weeks after the WNBA
finals wrap up, college season tips off, and of the
college season, just a couple of days between NCAA Championships
and the WNBA Draft, and you got unrivaled thrown in
there to watch as well and to cover as well. Now,
on the men's side, a lot of reporters will stick
(36:14):
to just college or just the NBA, but on the
women's side, people usually cover both, partly due to the schedule,
given that you know, college and NBA happened at the
same time.
Speaker 2 (36:22):
That makes it a little harder for those reporters, but
also I.
Speaker 1 (36:24):
Think you know, it sort of limits your ability to
cover WNBA news during the NCAA season if your knee
deep in the stories of the college game and vice versa.
So how do you handle the pivot of switching your
coverage focus? And do you think at some point we're
going to get to a place where we need to
have dedicated w reporters who are just focused on all
(36:44):
of the off season goings on, particularly in a moment
like this with the CBA negotiations and all the expansion coming.
Speaker 7 (36:51):
Yeah, I'd say in response to your first question, I
don't do a very good job of being second I'm
WNBA news while we're in Collegeason, because how could you
write like the college worth landscape is just incredibly vast
and there's so many interesting stories, and you know, just
focusing in on the top twenty five is a herculean
task in and of itself. And then we talked about
the tournament and all of these schools that are you know,
making noise. So ideally, that's why newsrooms build out staffs of.
Speaker 6 (37:15):
Writers, you know, who can do things.
Speaker 7 (37:17):
We have we have three, so that's you know, more,
I would say than some, but not necessarily enough to
cover all of the things that are happening in women's basketball.
There is some overlap, right, Like you talk to a
lot of college coaches who know things about things that
are happening with their former players who are in the
pros and vice versa, and just having conversations with people
(37:39):
in the loop.
Speaker 6 (37:39):
Like everybody is sort.
Speaker 7 (37:40):
Of in this space where like they can't go to
something right, Like they all have to be plugged in
on things that are happening at the pro, international, and
college level at the same time. So it helps that
everybody sort of having the same conversations and trying to
be as plugged in as possible to every little thing.
But that doesn't make it any easier, Like there's just
too much, too many news items happening, especially this year
(38:01):
when the WNBF season is going to be so pivital
to like the future of the league itself, Like it
seems almost impossible to think about, like, oh, ucl is
playing Tennessee at LA, should I go to that camera
like be focused on.
Speaker 6 (38:14):
On CBA negotiations.
Speaker 7 (38:16):
But yeah, I think we are reaching a point where
like national WNBA reporters make sense independent of college just
because all of the things that are happening on the
off season, and then just the fact that the season
is going to stretch so much longer, right, Like we're
talking about the WNBA season next year that no matter
when it starts, even if it starts on time, is
going to extend into November because of the World Cup.
(38:36):
That's going to you know, create a gap in the
middle of the regular season. And that means like we're
not even talking about like a theoretical like oh, I
have to go straight from college or WM to college,
Like there's literally going to be an overlap of games
the WNB in college, And with how much popular the
league is getting, with how much more of a profile
the players have during the off season where there's actually
a demand for their stories when they're not in season,
(38:57):
I do think it's going to be something where, you know,
people are going to want to know about what's happening
in the WNBA.
Speaker 6 (39:03):
Even when the games aren't happening.
Speaker 7 (39:04):
And yeah, I think it's the same thing with college right,
Like so many of the college writers I know, they
go like from basketball and then they end up covering
football or other college sports like during those off seasons,
and there's so much news during the college off season.
Really think about all the transfer portal stuff and recruiting,
and I mean it's both of these seasons are NonStop
and the fact that like they just sort of lead
(39:25):
in one into the other is is great for fans
if you were interested in women's basketbyeh.
Speaker 6 (39:29):
But it's a lot.
Speaker 2 (39:30):
It's a lot, a lot for reporters.
Speaker 1 (39:33):
So if you had a clone and there was one
thread you could be pulling right now to send your
clone to work on something, maybe people aren't talking enough
about that you wish they were something you wish you
could really dig into.
Speaker 2 (39:43):
What would it be?
Speaker 7 (39:44):
I mean, there's all of these college stories that I
want to tell right now, but like when am I
supposed to report that, you know, I mean there's like
a Kid Mulkey story that I still think it needs
to be told that you know, we're teased off last year,
but something that I would love to, you know, spend.
Speaker 6 (39:58):
Some time on.
Speaker 7 (39:58):
And yet here I am at the time WNB Finals
until basically the start of LSU season. So you know,
we'll keep checking along, but hopefully that there's just more
resources come forward.
Speaker 1 (40:10):
Yes, well, y'all are killing it over at the Athletic really,
and the podcast is so great.
Speaker 2 (40:14):
I know we've had Ben on a couple of times.
Speaker 1 (40:16):
We'll get the rest of the crew on at some point,
but keep it up and we're looking forward to the
coverage of game three.
Speaker 6 (40:21):
Yeah, thanks so much for the invite.
Speaker 5 (40:24):
Thanks again to Sabrina for taking the time.
Speaker 2 (40:26):
We got to take another break.
Speaker 1 (40:28):
When we come back, brush and give me twenty.
Speaker 2 (40:37):
Welcome back slices.
Speaker 1 (40:38):
We love that you're listening, but we want you to
get in the game every day too, So here's our
good game play of the day. It's an easy one.
Follow Sabrina on social media. We'll link to her Blue
Sky and Instagram in the show notes. And we always
love to hear from you, so hit us up on
email good game at wondermedianetwork dot com or leave us
a voicemail at eight seven two two four fifty seventy
and don't forget to subscribe, rate and review. It's easy well.
(41:00):
Electric Toothbrushes rating thirty two out of thirty two. Clean
Teeth Review producer Alex just told me she's joined the
magical world of electric toothbrushes. And first of all, all
you folks out there still using regular toothbrush, you don't
know what you're missing, so get on board.
Speaker 2 (41:16):
Better late than never.
Speaker 5 (41:18):
But also the talk of electric toothbrushes.
Speaker 1 (41:20):
Reminded me of like fifteen years ago when I interviewed
WNBA legend Lisa Leslie, and I asked her about staying
fit and active in retirement, and she told me that
she knows that her electric toothbrush timer is two minutes,
so in the morning, when she's brushing her teeth, she
does two minutes of squats, and at night, when she
brushes her teeth, she does two minutes of lunges. And
(41:40):
I proceeded to think, Wow, that's why Lisa Leslie is
who she is and.
Speaker 2 (41:43):
I'm just a NARP.
Speaker 1 (41:45):
So I thought, well, I'm going to start my lunges
and squats when I brush my teeth. But I didn't
have an electric toothbrush, and I immediately stopped doing it
after two days because I forgot. But today, having been
reminded of Lisa's practice and now owning an electric toothbrush,
I commit to trying again. So squats and lundes for
me as well, at least for the next two weeks.
We'll see if it sticks. Now it's your turn, slices,
(42:06):
rate and review. Thanks for listening, See you tomorrow.
Speaker 2 (42:09):
Good game.
Speaker 1 (42:10):
Sabrina Good Game NWSL coaches, proving us right that the
handshake lines sometimes.
Speaker 2 (42:15):
Ain't for handshakes.
Speaker 1 (42:16):
Thank you is absolutely what Yakobsen and Kunratz said to
each other. Good Game with Sarah Spain is an iHeart
women's sports production in partnership with Deep Blue Sports and Entertainment.
You can find us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you get your podcasts. Production by Wonder Media Network,
our producers are Alex Azzie and Misha Jones. Our executive
(42:38):
producers are Christina Everett, Jesse Katz, Jenny Kaplan, and Emily Rutterer.
Our editors are Emily Rutterer, Britney Martinez, Grace Lynch, and
Gianna Palmer. Our associate producer is Lucy Jones. Production assistance
from Avery Loftis and I'm Your Host Sarah Spain
Host
Sarah Spain
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