September 12, 2024 • 41 mins
Lyndsey D'Arcangelo and Frankie de la Cretaz join Sarah to discuss their book, Hail Mary: The Rise and Fall of the National Women's Football League. They talk about making big editorial decisions together and the opportunity to give well-deserved attention to the women of the league. Plus, they give their takes on the Cathy Englebert non-answer saga and producer Misha weighs in, too.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to Good Game with Sarah Spain, where we have
concepts of a plan for today's episode. Today we'll be
talking to Lindsay dark Angelo and Frankie de la Creta,
authors of Hail Mary, the Rise and Fall of the
National Women's Football League ahead of the fiftieth anniversary of
that league. Plus fallowout continues following Kathy Engelbert's recent interview
with WNBA players and the players Association speaking out and
(00:23):
some Orange Slices come through with some truly terrible sponsor ideas.
It's all coming up right after this. Welcome back Orange Slices.
Here's what you need to know today. Yesterday we told
you about the brewing backlash over Kathy Engelbert, the commissioner
(00:44):
of the WNBA's recent appearance on CNBC's Power Lunch. When
asked by CNBC anchor Tyler Matheson about if the league
could have gotten ahead of or had a plan for
when the Angel rees Caitlin Clark Rivalry took a quote
darker and more menacing tone on social media, especially around
issues of race and SEXUALI. Englbert failed to directly respond
to the question. She instead focused her answer on the
(01:04):
boost to business provided by rivalries. Given the increase in
racists and vitriolic comments players have received this season, especially
players of color, Engelbert's answers spark backlash from fans, players,
and even the league's players Association. On Tuesday evening, the
Players Association released a statement written by executive director Terry Jackson.
It read, in part, quote, here's the answer that the
(01:25):
commissioner should have provided to the very clear question regarding
the racism, misogyny, and harassment experience by the players. There
is absolutely no place in sport or in life for
the vile hate, racist language, homophobic comments, and the misogynist
attacks our players are facing on social media. This is
not about rivalries or iconic personalities fueling a business model.
(01:47):
This kind of toxic fandom should never be tolerated or
left unchecked. It demands immediate action and frankly, should have
been addressed long ago.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
End quote.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
Individual players from the league have also been weighing in.
Asked about Engelbert's answer by ESPN, Las Vegas Aces point
guard Chelsea Gray said quote, I just think it's doing
a disservice to the majority of this league and not
talking about the part that it's consumed and played by
black women to basically be like, yep, we push it
under the carpet that racism is okay. So not being
direct and handling that, I think she did a poor
(02:18):
job of doing that. W n bp A vice president
Branda Stewart told reporter she was disappointed by Engelbert's answer too.
Speaker 2 (02:24):
Here's that audio.
Speaker 3 (02:25):
It's it's kind of disappointing to hear because you know
the way that the fans have surged and especially behind
Caitlin and Angel coming to this league, but also bringing
like a race aspect to a different level, and you know,
there's there's no place for that in our sport. And
I think that's really it is. We want our sport
(02:47):
to be inclusive for race, you know, gender and and
really a place where people can be themselves. So we
wish obviously Kathy would a platform in a different way
and have made that a little bit better, but kind
of just telling the fans like enough enough is enough,
(03:09):
you know, become a fan of our sport and for
the new ones, like lock in on everybody, but don't
be disrespectful because as a league, like we stick together
and there's there's no place for that.
Speaker 1 (03:20):
Engelbert posted a statement to Twitter late Tuesday night, writing quote,
during a recent media interview, I was asked about the
dark side of social media and online conversation about WNBA
rivalries and race. To be clear, there is absolutely no
place for hate or racism of any kind in the
WNBA or anywhere else.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
End quote.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
I don't think I'm alone. And having clicked directly on
that Kathy tweet expecting it to expand to more, it didn't.
It seems pretty unlikely that Engelbert's response will be enough
to quell the fire that was sparked by her interview.
We'll be talking about this a little bit more on
today's show with Frankie and Lindsay and with producer Mish
and as more continues to come out in response to
(03:59):
the end. In other WNBA news, there is just one
game tonight with the Dallas Wings hosting the New York Liberty,
and while the Wings have been eliminated from playoff contention,
there's one cool record that could be broken. Ariga Agumbowale
is currently eleven points away from becoming the franchise's all
time leading scorer, and in hoops and gay Shit news
(04:19):
on fiancetde couple, do Wanna Bonner and Alissa Thomas continue
to break records for the Connecticut Sun. Douana Bonner passed
Sue Byrd to move into seventh place on the WNBA
all time field goals made list, and Alissa Thomas moved
into first all time and steals in Connecticut's Sun history. Finally, ESPN,
whose regular season coverage of the w has wrapped, has
announced that the twenty twenty four WNBA regular season on
(04:42):
ESPN platforms was the most watched ever and buy a
lot up one hundred and seventy percent over last year's
regular season average, and their show WNBA countdown was up
one hundred and thirteen percent versus last year's average. You'll
love to see it.
Speaker 2 (05:00):
We're gonna take a quick break. When we come back.
Speaker 1 (05:01):
We'll talk with Lindsay and Frankie about a women's league
that has too often been overlooked.
Speaker 2 (05:05):
It's coming up next.
Speaker 1 (05:12):
She's a longtime women's sports writer, a columnist at Awful Announcing,
former women's soups writer for The Athletic. Her work has
appeared in The Ring or Dead's beIN ESPN, teen, Vogue,
and more. She's a Maxwell fan and probably rocking an
Angel Reese Times. Reese's piece is fit right now. It's
Lindsay dark Angela.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
What's up? Lindsay, what's up? You're not wearing that fit?
Speaker 4 (05:30):
No, I'm wearing wn WNBA though WNBA.
Speaker 1 (05:32):
Perfect perfect joining her there an award winning freelance writer
whose work focus is on the intersection of sports and gender.
Their work has appeared in The New York Times, Sports Illustrated, espnW, Vogue,
The Washington Post, The Atlantic, and more. Their dog might
be barking right in the middle of this interview. At
least we're gonna blame their dog and not mine. It's
Frankie de la Creta. What's up, Frankie?
Speaker 5 (05:51):
Hi, Sarah, I'm also rocking WNBA merch. It turns out so.
Speaker 1 (05:55):
I'm rocking my Kamala bratt hat that says we're not
going back so perfect?
Speaker 2 (05:59):
Could we be more feminist?
Speaker 1 (06:02):
Let's talk about this book you wrote, Hail Mary, The
Rise and Fall of the National Women's Football League. You
are on and joining us to honor the fiftieth anniversary
of that league, which is coming up on September fifteenth. Lindsay,
I just want to start with the basic how did
you two come together and write on this topic?
Speaker 4 (06:17):
And we have told this story like so many times.
I'll give you the quick sum up. Frankie and I
met in a Facebook group Geez back in like twenty sixteen,
and it was for you know, marginalized sports sports writers, women,
LGBTQ individuals, women of color, and basically it was a
(06:39):
group that was just full of people who are just
trying to establish themselves and support and share articles and
things of that nature. And Frankie and I got to
talking and they were writing, I believe a story on
the Toledo Troopers, who are the winningest team in the
NWFL and I think in football in general. They reach
(06:59):
out to me and asked me if you know, I
knew of any football related books that existed because they
knew I was a big football fan and there weren't any.
The type of books that were out there were basically
teaching women about football or how to get into football
to to you know, appease their boyfriend or whatever. And
(07:22):
then you know, I said, you know, you should write one,
and they said, well, only if you would write it
with me. And that's basically how it started. I mean
We basically went from there and created a book proposal
that was about women in football in general, over throughout
the period of history since football was created. But it
(07:45):
was too it was too broad, and our agent and
publishers asked us to narrow it down, and Frankie said,
you know this, did a little bit more research on
the Troopers and found out about the n w NWFL
and said this is what we should focus on, and
that's what we did.
Speaker 1 (08:05):
Yeah, tell us about the league? When did it kick
off on how long did it last?
Speaker 4 (08:10):
I kicked off September fifteenth, nineteen seventy four, and it
ran until nineteen eighty eight, so it lasted, you know,
for over a decade. And there were periods of growth
and where things look like they might take off and
come together, and then you know, eventually is some leagues
(08:31):
and women's sports history failed to you know, establish themselves
as what happened with the NWFL, and it eventually folded.
Speaker 1 (08:39):
Frankie, a lot of people might not even know that
there was an NWFL.
Speaker 2 (08:43):
Can you tell us about the research for the book?
Speaker 1 (08:44):
How much information was out there and how many former
participants or people with close ties to the league were
you actually able to find.
Speaker 5 (08:51):
You know, it's so wild to me how many people
did not know this league existed, even like women's sports
historians had not heard of this league. And considering that, yeah,
it was the first pro women's football league in the US,
has the winningest team in pro football history, men's or
women's in it. Like, the fact that people did not
know about this league was really surprising to us. And
(09:12):
I think that's why it felt so important to be
able to document this story. In terms of doing the research,
it kind of became like Domino's, you know, once you
found one person, the domino started to fall. We started
with newspaper archives and there would be player names in
those stories and we would look those people up Facebook,
(09:35):
their boomers. They were on Facebook, but we love it.
We found that a lot of the women on Facebook,
and usually finding one would lead to, you know, finding
a teammate. And I'll tell you almost every team had
almost like what I kind of referred to as like
their team historian. There was always the one player that
(09:56):
had the closet full of everything with the game program
and the memorabilia and the newspaper articles and things like that,
and so many of these women really were waiting for
somebody to call them, Like there was women who were
like I kind of gave up that anyone was ever
going to tell this story, or you know, some people
have been like I've been waiting forty years for someone
(10:16):
to care about this, and so once you start digging,
you know it is out there. And a lot of
the women were really really happy, happy to talk.
Speaker 1 (10:27):
I have to tell you, you're making me like emotional
just talking about it, because it's bringing to me memories
of the end of a league of their own and
that part of the movie. Like I remember watching it
the first couple of times when I was younger and
being like, oh, that's nice. And then I had like
a fifteen year gap and watched it again as an adult,
and I was like bawling about the idea of how
(10:48):
different life could have been for so many women who
cared so much about sport and just weren't given the opportunity.
And thinking about these women and how grateful they were
for you to show up and want to tell their stories,
and having them have kept all that stuffs hurts me.
Speaker 5 (11:01):
I will tell you. While we were writing the book,
there was the daughter of one of the Houston Hurricanes
players was filming a documentary. It's called The Hurricanes. It's
actually I think gonna be in theaters select theaters next month,
so people should check that out. But I was able
to fly down to Houston to film for that, but
(11:21):
I was there for a forty year anniversary reunion of
the team. The women hadn't seen each other since their
team folded unexpectedly in nineteen seventy nine, and it felt
like being in the illegue of their own scene where
they all see each other for the first time in
so long. And I think Lindsay and I both feel
(11:41):
this way. We still as familiar with the material as
we are and as well as we know this story.
Every time I watched that film, I cry. I've seen
it three times now. I've cried every time. It's I
think it's deeply, you know, moving, and it's emotional for
so many reasons.
Speaker 1 (11:57):
Yeah, yeah, Lindsay, what was the sponsor the league when
it first launched?
Speaker 4 (12:02):
There was there was intrigue. But so there's a whole backstory.
And this is what our book helps sort of parts out,
is it's it's not just about this specific league, but
when women first were introduced to the game and started
playing and started, you know, trying to establish themselves, whether
it was at the high school level or a play
(12:24):
a student at a high school who just got onto
the men's football team. Different things like that were happening
leading up to this. And then you have a man
named Sid Freeman out of out of Ohio who created
like a barnstorming team because he saw the potential, he
saw the curiosity for women playing football and he created
(12:48):
a team and so it was already and so they
played games and people would come and it was there
was already this momentum leading up and then when people
saw what he was doing, other teams popped up, you know,
at different parts of the country, and eventually that's what
led to the formation of the league. So there was
already an appetite for women playing football when the league launched,
(13:11):
and I think that sort of gave them a platform
to jump off from. As far as like received from
the media and people in football circles and particularly you
know men, you know they were it wasn't well received
(13:32):
at all in that regard. It was put down the
players were taken seriously. There was this whole thing where
they were accused in Isaiah accused because you know the
way feminism was used back then, they were accused of
being feminists or doing it for certain reasons. But and honestly,
and this goes back to what you were talking about
with the league of their own. When we talked to
these players, the sentiment was basically this, they loved the
(13:56):
game and they just wanted a chance to play, and
that was the driving force. But yeah, there as far
as how the league was received from from fans or
people who were who wanted to see it, there was
definitely a lot of hype.
Speaker 1 (14:09):
Was the coverage the same as we tend to see
even now, but especially in years past.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
Words basically split into two.
Speaker 1 (14:16):
It's either like, women shouldn't be allowed to do this,
This isn't ladylike and proper and safe. And then if
they're going to do it, can they wear shorter shorts.
Speaker 2 (14:24):
And crop tops?
Speaker 4 (14:25):
Yep? All of that.
Speaker 2 (14:27):
Wow, shocking that it was that easy for me to.
Speaker 4 (14:29):
Guess, Sarah, you have nailed it.
Speaker 5 (14:31):
You didn't even have to read the chapter.
Speaker 1 (14:32):
No, No, but I will, but I'll be angry while
I read it, because that's the same old story everything.
Speaker 4 (14:37):
Yeah, you already know, like Frank and I would send
article clips that we were you know, during our research
process back and forth with just absolute in absolute horror
at what we were reading and the way these women
were talked about. But it's not that far removed from
some of the stuff we've seen in you know, in
(14:59):
Today's Meet.
Speaker 1 (15:00):
The number of times I've had to write the same
story and replace the name FIFA head set. Bladders suggests
that soccer for women would be better if they were
short or shorts.
Speaker 5 (15:09):
Yeah, although I mean, I will say it's funny. You know,
Lindsay mentioned Sid Friedman and part of his you know,
barnstorming Harlem Globetrotter's ask vision that he had for these
women was he wanted like tear away skirts. He invited
Husmer magazine out, Yeah, basically, and the women were really
not having it And part of the reason that they
(15:31):
broke away from him was because they wanted to be
taken seriously as football players. And I think this is
the difference too between right, we've talked about a league
of their own. If we look at the time period
and like, you know, the nineteen forties and fifties that
league was, we're talking about the late you know, or
mid to late seventies. Now there has been some progress
to the point that the women that were playing football
(15:52):
were much less willing to wear the skirt to be
on the field. They instead were like, actually, we're going
to take our own league. One team formed a corporation
to purchase themselves from their male owners so that they
could incredible have control over themselves. And so you do
see that shift, you know, happening. And then the women
are trying. You know, it's like the men see them
(16:14):
as a joke, but the women make it, make it real,
you know.
Speaker 1 (16:18):
Brief aside, I was in Vancouver just a couple months
ago to give a speech and I went to breakfast
and my waitress said, oh, where are you from, Like
she could tell I was visiting, And what are you
here for? I said, women's sports, saying YadA YadA, And
she said, you know what I just saw the other
day for the first time, this lingerie league football. What
a great idea. I can't believe this isn't a bigger thing.
And I was like, Ah, what year is this?
Speaker 2 (16:39):
What year am I in?
Speaker 5 (16:41):
Only truly, but can we discuss that that league is
still the only like women's football league that ever had
like a cable deal.
Speaker 1 (16:48):
And can we also talk about how those athletes were
freaking insane so talented. It made me sad every time
I watched. I didn't watch a lot. I watched to
do a story on it, and I was like, these
women are badasses and this is what we're doing.
Speaker 2 (17:02):
This is so sad.
Speaker 1 (17:04):
Craig, you just mentioned one about a team buying themselves back,
But are there any other like stories about people or
teams involved that really stood out to While you were
reporting that, you were like, oh my god, everyone needs
to hear about this.
Speaker 5 (17:15):
I mean, I think there's there's definitely several that is
you know, the Columbus Paysetters are They're one of my favorite.
They were the team that ran the longest. They ran
the whole length of the league from seventy four to
eighty eight, and yeah they did. They they formed a
corporation and purchased themselves from the men that owned them,
and that was pretty incredible. I also had a real,
(17:38):
you know, soft spot for the Dallas Bluebonnets. I wrote
their story and I love that team. The majority of
the women that showed up to try out for that
team found out about the tryouts and like their local
lesbian bar, and so I got to do a very
like I did not know that I was going to
end up doing like a deep dive on the history
(17:59):
of lesbian bars and Alice in the nineteen seventies. But
it turns out the scenes happen. And what's cool is
some of those players still see each other because they
still go line dancing at the lesbian bar in Dallas.
Speaker 4 (18:10):
I love So.
Speaker 5 (18:13):
I really liked getting to tell that story, particularly from
like a cultural standpoint. And I know, like I think
Lindsay has teams, you know, we kind of each have
different stories in the book that we Yeah, is.
Speaker 2 (18:29):
There one that stands out to Lindsay?
Speaker 4 (18:31):
Oh, yeah, for sure. There's a player who played for
the La Dandellions. Her name is Rose Low, and she
was their quarterback. And at first she didn't she didn't
want to talk about the league. She had been burned
in the past when opening up about things. She was
very hesitant. And everybobody else who I contact and from
(18:51):
that team gets saying, you got to talk to Rose.
You got to talk to Rose because she was one
of those team historians who had a bunch of documents
and video to share and had saved memorabilia. She was
also like one of the captains. And you know, she
just was so hesitant to open up, which I don't
blame her at all. And she kept started off first
(19:15):
texting me, and then we did like a preliminary call,
and then once she felt comfortable, man, the floodgates opened
and she just she shared. She shared so much. I mean,
this book, my part of the book wouldn't be complete
without her and what the information she provided. But when
we finished the book and it came out, she sent
me She not only sent me care packages throughout the
(19:38):
writing process, but she sent me a care package at
the end when it was published. And actually Frankie and
I were out in LA for the La Book Festival
in twenty twenty one, we got to meet her. She
came and she gave us both care packages. Again, I think,
oh so sweet.
Speaker 3 (19:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (19:53):
So it's just that's how, that's how just grateful a
lot of these players were to hear their see their
story being told.
Speaker 1 (20:00):
I ask what had happened to her in her previous
time speaking to press about it.
Speaker 4 (20:05):
I think just being you know, in interviews and stuff.
A lot of these players were asked some of the
same questions over and over again, you know, about why
they're playing and why they think they belonged there, you know,
were they were they just doing it for feminism and
things of that nature. And she never really felt like
anyone took them seriously as athletes. And you know, they
(20:29):
were in a period of time where Tyle nine had
just happened, and they were just the door had just
been opened for women to be able to try to
play sports, different sports at the college level and try
different things here and there, and so it was like
this brand new world that opened up for her, and
you know, to still be treated in a way where
you felt like, oh, it's one step forward, two steps
(20:51):
back kind of a thing was was really tough.
Speaker 2 (20:53):
It's hard.
Speaker 1 (20:53):
Yeah, yeah, frank you what happened to the league?
Speaker 2 (20:57):
Why did it shut down?
Speaker 5 (20:58):
Lack of funds? Really is you know, old story. It's
the same old story. And I think what you know
it's the same old story, particularly with like women's leagues, right,
is that we can see that men's leagues, Uh, you know,
it takes at least a decade usually for leagues and
teams to see like any sort of profit and people
(21:19):
will continue funding men's leagues and men's teams even when
they are losing money. But when women's leagues don't make
money the first year, people want to bail and all.
Speaker 2 (21:28):
The product and not the investment.
Speaker 5 (21:30):
Yeah, and the men that owned these teams had no
experience in owning any teams before, and they thought that
this was going to be like a quick buck. They
really thought they were going to turn around a profit
in a year or two, and unfortunately that's just not
how it works. And so I think a combination. Also,
there was a lot of press coverage at the beginning
(21:52):
because it was seen as kind of was it a gimmick?
What is it? It was something new, And you will
see we have a really hard time putting together the
story of like really like the nineteen eighties. We don't
cover that much in the book because the press coverage
had like nearly stopped. And so if you don't have
a lot of you know, you don't have press coverage,
people don't know about the games. No one is going
(22:13):
and no one is putting any money into this. I
mean the women paid for this out of their own pocket.
Most of them were promised twenty five dollars a game.
The majority of them never got that they are like
hosting car washes, raffles, the things that you know, women's
football players are still doing today still happen, you know,
and so ultimately they just couldn't sustain it.
Speaker 2 (22:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:36):
Well, I recommend everybody read the book Hail Mary, The
Rise and Fall of the National Women's Football League. I've
read excerpts from it. I'm fascinated by the topic. I'm
really looking forward to reading it. And it was very cool.
I saw the T shirt company Homage actually reached out
to me. They created T shirts honoring the fiftieth anniversary
of the league. You can actually still grab them Homage
dot com. There's some really cool ones, the Detroit Demons
(22:56):
one and the Philadelphia Queen Bees especially.
Speaker 2 (22:58):
I love those.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
Tea's actually got a handful of them for some friends
and it's a really cool way to keep the memory
of those teams alive and be rocking their gear.
Speaker 5 (23:07):
Yeah, they're so called. The Demons were hand me down
Lions jerseys actually, so they are the same colors as
Allies and the Dallas Bluebonnets played in Cowboy Stadium.
Speaker 2 (23:17):
Awesome, very cool gift, by the way.
Speaker 1 (23:19):
I'm I'm not this is not paid for by homage,
but they should be paying me for this, like just
giving it to like I think little girls or little
boys to like have them be talking about what's that
team and what were they is really cool Before we
let you go, because I love talking to.
Speaker 2 (23:34):
You about football.
Speaker 1 (23:35):
I also know that y'all talk a lot about basketball
and write a lot about basketball, and particularly the intersection
of race and sports. We heard Kathy Engelbert, the commissioner
of the WNBA a couple of days ago, on a
CNBC show with a very incomplete which is the nicest
way of saying it, answer about some of the racial
rhetoric around the two star rookies of the league and
(23:56):
how that's affected coverage overall of the league and sort
of affected the experiences of the players, not just those rookies,
but everybody. And she put out a very flimsy statement
acknowledging maybe one major part she forgot, but certainly players.
The executive director of the WNBPA, a lot of other
people have had thoughts on what she should have said.
In response to the question, lindsay, this was your account
(24:18):
for a really long time when you worked at the
Athletic and I wonder how much of a disconnect do
you think there is between the commissioner slash front office
and the coaches and players of a league that is
so known for its progressive thinking and also its collaborative
ability to rally around issues like this.
Speaker 4 (24:35):
Yeah. See, this is what I have a hard time
believing that Kady Angelbert is not aware of this because
the league before we got to this point where games
are actually being shown, games are accessible, like everything's being
talked about in mainstream media as far as women's basketball
goes nowadays, it wasn't always like that, and they, the
(24:59):
league it's self leverage social media to get to this point.
Games used to be shown on Twitter now x, you know,
and WNBA Twitter was this community that involved fans and players,
but teams as well and as well as you know,
the league itself too. Everything sort of interacted. And to
(25:20):
know that the WNBA got to this point where it
is and was able to leverage better, you know, broadcast
deals and get more games on television National Intellivision was
because of social media like that has always been part
of its existence since social media was you know, was invented.
So for her to to not be aware about how
(25:43):
things have turned or changed in regards to social media
is surprising to me. So either she's was being you know,
was purposely dodging the question, or is it is just
incredibly unaware of what's happening and just I've disconnected. Yeah,
and it just it's hard for me. It's hard for
(26:04):
me to believe that, honestly.
Speaker 2 (26:07):
Yeah, Frank you do you have thoughts on that?
Speaker 5 (26:10):
Yeah, I think if she's going to be a white
commissioner of a majority black league, she needs to do
a better job. I think it's really really irresponsible and unacceptable.
I also find it completely ahistorical to continue to talk
about these two players, you know, let's be clear Angel
Reason Caitlin Clark and say that they're trying to have
(26:34):
the kind of modern and women's version of the like
Magic Johnson Larry Bird rivalry, and ignore the racism that
underlied that too. It's completely a historical to erase that
because yes, it was a black player and a white player,
and guess what comes with that often is racism and
that was present you know at that time too, and
(26:56):
to pretend that it wasn't and it was just about
the basketball really ignores the reality of that situation and
what Magic Johnson went through, right, and what Angel Reese
is going through now and the other players, you know,
because it's not just Angel Reese, right, d Jenny Carrington
has talken about this as well, Kenny. We seen Kennedy Carter,
(27:17):
you know, and so And.
Speaker 1 (27:18):
To be fair, because we've made this a race and
culture war, we're assigning to players belief systems and entire
backgrounds that we know nothing about, and so we need,
like Cameron Brink to do an interview for us to
be like, oh few, yay, you know, like like that's
not fair to anyone that it's not that, you know, I.
Speaker 5 (27:36):
Do wish Caitlyn Clark had explicitly made comment earlier. It
took someone reading de Johnny Carrington's tweet to her in
Oppressor to get like an actual clear I condemn this.
I feel like the people around it's you know, and
Caitlin Clark is young. I feel like the people around
(27:56):
her really should have been, you know, helped her get there.
And there's sort of been a clearer statement earlier because
this isn't new. It has been happening since college. And yeah,
it's not just Angel, it's you know, any player who
is black, who is masculine, who you know, because that
has come in as well as you know, sexuality is
(28:18):
being targeted if they even look at Caitlyn Clark wrong
on the court.
Speaker 1 (28:23):
Right, Yeah, I mean, I think we've talked about what
is what was the plan, and what is the plan
for Caitlyn's team and for the league as a whole,
understanding how she's been weaponized in this way. Whatever the
plan was, it hasn't worked in terms of making her
feel completely immune to it.
Speaker 4 (28:41):
Right.
Speaker 1 (28:42):
Just saying I'm just focused on basketball will only work
for so long until people believe that you know what's
going on and you're being either intentionally obtuse or you
tacitly agree because you won't speak out against it.
Speaker 4 (28:54):
Yeah. I just wanted to add to that. You know,
this league and the three of us know this. Obviously,
we've been around, we know the history. But this league
has often thrived and evolved because of the players. You know.
It's it's they haven't. It's not. It hasn't gotten to
where it is today because of the leadership. But in
spite of it, the players are the ones who have
(29:17):
used their voices and their platforms to enact change and
this is this is what's happening now with this incident
and what who she was given a lob, Kathy Engelbert
was given a LB on a television national television show
or whatever it was to to to meet the moment,
and she she missed the lab completely. And the players
(29:37):
are now scrambling picking up the ball, trying to save
the play. And they're the ones who are now being
asked about it, who are now saying what should have
been said in the first place, And they're the ones
who are going to shoulder this going forward.
Speaker 1 (29:51):
Yeah, And that's what's so impressive about this league is
that the players are equipped, yep, to answer and to
like you said, meet the moment in a way that
often the executives in front office are not, which is
both a result of lived experience for many of them,
but also potentially points out the disconnect between those who
(30:11):
are the strength of the league and those who are
running it. And what I felt about Kathy's response was
that it was so capitalistic in nature. It was how
do I spin these awful things into good for business?
And completely ignorant to the experience of the people actually
enduring the issues and also to the long term effect
it might have on the league if you just let
(30:33):
it go unchecked, right, Like, you could say all you
want rivalries are good, that's true, could say all you
want people like, don't want everyone to just be nice?
Speaker 2 (30:40):
That's true. But also what does this league.
Speaker 1 (30:42):
Become if those of us that have been covering have
been in those spaces to your point, Lindsay, have been
on social forever, have seen so drastically a change in
how the players are being treated, talked about all of
that stuff. And it's not always good when you just
get more eyeballs. Those eyeballs and those people talk fucking
need to not be damaging the product, which is what
(31:03):
we've seen a lot of this year.
Speaker 4 (31:04):
Yeah, there's mental and emotional ads. It's like an adult
telling a child, oh, you know who's being bullied, Oh,
just ignore it, and not being totally naive to the
mental and the emotional damage that's being done.
Speaker 1 (31:20):
Well, I appreciate your thoughts on it. I think it's
super complicated. I think unfortunately it's really gotten in the
way of covering a lot of the basketball this year.
So it's like it needs to be addressed and handled.
You need to get out in front of it and
have a really good collaborative plan for it.
Speaker 2 (31:34):
And also you need to.
Speaker 1 (31:35):
Do that just so we could talk about how amazing
the basketball is and get to the good shit, because there's.
Speaker 2 (31:41):
Been a lot of it this season. Thank you again
to Frankie and Lindsay for joining me.
Speaker 1 (31:46):
You can read Lindsay at Awful Announcing, and you can
check out Frankie's Queer sports newsletter out of your League.
We'll link to all that in our show notes. We
have to take another break when we come back. Meichwas
in on the Kathy Engelbert interview and Siemens Bank would
like to make a deposit nex welcome back slices meish
(32:07):
Before we move on, I did want to ask if
you had thoughts on the Kathy engelbird thing.
Speaker 2 (32:10):
I know we've been talking a lot.
Speaker 1 (32:11):
Off the air about it, so wanted to give you
a chance to have a say on the era as well.
Speaker 4 (32:17):
I appreciate it.
Speaker 6 (32:18):
And before I get into this rant I'm about to
go on, I just want to say how glad I
am that you, me and Alex are able to have
those conversations like that. Is just it's enriching for me
as a young person in this space to know that, like,
there is a way to talk about these issues with
you know, real pure intentions behind it, so that we
(32:39):
can find solutions and find better ways of doing and being.
Speaker 2 (32:43):
So just shout out to y'all. Shout out to y'all
and to you too. Oh appreciate you so listening in
on that interview.
Speaker 6 (32:49):
I really thought something Frankie said hit the nail on
the head for me. They said, Kathy is a white
woman commissioner of a majority black league, and that is
a crucial position and responsibility to hold.
Speaker 2 (33:01):
I feel like at this.
Speaker 6 (33:02):
Particular juncture, it's a privilege just to sit in that seat.
A And let me be clear, it's also a result
of Kathy's white privilege that she felt comfortable not directly
addressing the question that CNBC's Tyler Matheson asked her, the
heart of which was what's your plan to combat the
racist and homophobic targeting that w players are dealing with?
(33:23):
What's the plan to nip all that bullshit in the bud?
And to me, to be audacious enough to skip over
the meat of that question is white privilege. Do I
think her intent was malicious?
Speaker 2 (33:34):
No? I really don't.
Speaker 6 (33:36):
But I think it's also important to remember, like I said,
this is a critical juncture for the league. There are
so many people I can imagine would love to sit
in the seat that she's sitting.
Speaker 5 (33:45):
In right now.
Speaker 6 (33:46):
I mean, look at Terry Jackson, who released the statement
She felt moved to do that and have a better
response to Tyler's question three whole hours before Kathy bothered
to put fingers to touch screen and address the question herself,
And so that bothers me a lot. And my last
point I want to.
Speaker 2 (34:03):
Make here is I think she'd be foolish to take.
Speaker 6 (34:06):
For granted that the majority of players that make up
the league feel supported, because if they don't feel supported
by the executive face of the league, there's a possibility
that the W falls lower on their priority list because
we're already starting to see other leagues unrivaled AU popping
up like wildfire. And if the goal is to keep
the W the premier destination for talent not just from
(34:27):
the US but around the world, players need to know
that the league and its commissioner understands where they're coming
from and has their back when shit gets chaotic. Not
that concerns will be met with non answers and empty platitudes.
Speaker 2 (34:39):
So that's all I got to say about it.
Speaker 1 (34:43):
Heard well said, and I think it comes back to
what I mentioned yesterday about what feels like a disconnect
between a league of players and coaches that seem to
really get it, and maybe a front office or at
very least a commissioner that doesn't necessarily, at least based
on what we heard from her and that follow up tweet,
I'm putting out a bat signal right now. I would
love to have someone like neck Ogou Mackay from the
(35:05):
Players Association, a leader in this league, really get into
it with us, because it has felt like such a
unified front. But when I think about it now, it
feels like that unified front has just been players right.
Speaker 2 (35:16):
Meish like exactly exactly.
Speaker 1 (35:18):
We've always heralded this league's unity, but what we're starting
to see now is maybe that is really just those
players making those decisions and coming together. That superb documentary
The Power of the Dream, like you look at what happened.
That was just a bunch of players coming together and
literally flipping the Senate being fed up. Yeah, and I
think I've always maybe wrongly assumed that leadership over there
(35:42):
was was mirroring that effort by the players, And now
I'm starting to wonder if maybe it's in spite of so.
Speaker 6 (35:49):
It's like having a star player on your team and
your coach has never played or coached a game in
their lives. You get to ride their coat tails. It's
exactly like that.
Speaker 4 (35:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (35:58):
Well, we're gonna keep talking about this for sure, but
I really appreciate what you had to say, Mesh.
Speaker 2 (36:01):
Thank you for that.
Speaker 1 (36:02):
We're going to lighten up the mood for a second
because earlier this week we did ask you for the
absolutely worst possible sponsor for a women's sports team. This,
of course, was the result of me going to dinner
with a bunch of women's sports exec including the president
of The Valkyrie, who was about to announce a jersey sponsor,
and I threw out, you know, Lover's Lane, Kay, why delly?
It got us talking about some of the worst, and
(36:24):
y'all came with some good ones. Pamela Mudway emailed us
and kept it short and sweet and just said, I
mean Siemens Bank, that is a good one. At Kenny
Metrov wrote and said Shepherd's Men's Wear, that's the actual
clothing line by Harrison, Butker that is wrong, that's so
wrong at Drew underscore TNB gotta be Summer's Eve, which
(36:46):
honestly reminds me of when Michael Jordan was on Saturday
Ight Live and he said, you know, sometimes I made
some bad decisions about the sponsorships I did, and then
I had him walking around a lake talking to someone
about that not so.
Speaker 2 (36:57):
Fresh feeling MJ at Troy T. Carlson said, rufe and al.
Speaker 1 (37:05):
He also said, I'm probably put on a list now
just for typing out that word. You probably are. And
also you took a real dark turn there, Troy, but
you're not wrong. That would be an absolutely terrible sponsor
at r J Slivan nine. The RNC wouldn't be great
and shout out to Patrick Netherton. He reminded me of
that SNL ESPN Classic set of sketches. It was Jason
(37:27):
Sadaikas and Will Forte playing broadcasters and from all the
different ESPN Classic Women's competitions. They had ridiculous sponsors and
some of the lines I'm actually surprised as I was
reading them back that they were on broadcast television, even
late night here's a couple of them, tam PACs helping
you relax when mother nature attacks your slacks. Stay Free
(37:50):
Pad's long drive competition.
Speaker 2 (37:52):
When you have your monthly Boo boo.
Speaker 1 (37:54):
Put these by your who who Stay free Maxi pads
the downstairs patch for your baby hatch. I see London,
I see China, I see one happy vagina, Stay free
Maxi pats. When your uterine lining looks like the elevator
from the Shining And my favorite Ky Jelly Ladies shot
put Championship, No for play today. Hey, that's okay, Ky Jelly,
(38:19):
protect her from your girth with the greatest lube on earth.
When you're seeing sparks where your penis parks, Ky Jelly,
make some room for Paco.
Speaker 2 (38:26):
Put some sauce on that taco.
Speaker 1 (38:29):
Oh honestly, that might have been where my brain went
when I originally suggested that the Valkyries go with Ky
Jelly as a Jersey sponsor. I mean, you can bet
that roughly thirty percent of my brain power is just
dedicated to Old Saturn Night Live sketches.
Speaker 2 (38:43):
Thank you as always for chiming in. We love to
hear from you slices.
Speaker 1 (38:47):
Just remember we love that you're listening, but we always
want you to get in the game every day too,
So today's good gameplay of the day is very easy.
Just buy the book Hail Mary, The Rise and Fall
of the National Women's Football League.
Speaker 2 (38:58):
We'll put a link in the show notes. Check it out,
and we love to hear from you.
Speaker 1 (39:02):
To hit us up good game at Wondermedia neetwork dot
com or leave us a voicemail at eight seven two
two o four fifty seventy. Don't forget to subscribe, rate
and review my little slices just like this. The corn
Maze at the Apple Orchard where I got married, rating
five out of five Cornstocks review. Shout out to County
Line Orchard in northwest Indiana for this year's corn Maze.
(39:25):
Per their website quote at Countyline Orchard, we're celebrating women's
sports by designing our maze in the likeness of Caitlin Clark.
Her incredible success and impact on the WNBA is a
huge inspiration and as a proud Indiana business, we wanted
to pay tribute.
Speaker 2 (39:39):
To her achievements. End quote. You gotta love this amazing
support of women's sports. Oh she could read that pun
because it works both ways. You know corn maze, mazees
corn anyway.
Speaker 1 (39:50):
Clark got a butter statue in Iowa, if you remember that,
and then she got a corn maze in Indiana.
Speaker 2 (39:55):
This is big Midwest energy. I don't think you can
get a duo of Midwest tributes that are stronger than that.
Speaker 1 (40:01):
Also, you know, ratings, attendance, merge, media coverage. It's all
well and good, but you know that women's sports have
really made it when they're breaking.
Speaker 2 (40:08):
Through on the old Fall festival circuit.
Speaker 1 (40:10):
Next up, we'll get to carve Caitlin's face in a
pumpkin and you old pumpkin spice latte with her face
in the foam.
Speaker 2 (40:17):
The PSL game. That's where the real money is.
Speaker 1 (40:20):
Now. It's your turn, rate and review with love and
hope from your childless dog mom.
Speaker 2 (40:24):
We'll see you tomorrow.
Speaker 1 (40:25):
Good game, Frankie, Good Game, Lindsay h Air bawling layups
on important issues. Good Game with Sarah Spain is an
iHeart women's sports production in partnership with Deep Blue Sports
and Entertainment. You can find us on the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Production by
Wonder Media Network, Our producers are Alex Azzi and Misha Jones.
(40:47):
Our executive producers are Christina Everett, Jesse Katz, Jenny Kaplan.
Speaker 2 (40:51):
And Emily Rudder.
Speaker 1 (40:52):
Our editors are Jenny Kaplan, Emily Rudder, Brittany Martinez and
Grace Lynch. Production assistants from Lucy Jones and I'm Your
Host Sarah Spain
Welcome to Good Game with Sarah Spain, where we have
concepts of a plan for today's episode. Today we'll be
talking to Lindsay dark Angelo and Frankie de la Creta,
authors of Hail Mary, the Rise and Fall of the
National Women's Football League ahead of the fiftieth anniversary of
that league. Plus fallowout continues following Kathy Engelbert's recent interview
with WNBA players and the players Association speaking out and
(00:23):
some Orange Slices come through with some truly terrible sponsor ideas.
It's all coming up right after this. Welcome back Orange Slices.
Here's what you need to know today. Yesterday we told
you about the brewing backlash over Kathy Engelbert, the commissioner
(00:44):
of the WNBA's recent appearance on CNBC's Power Lunch. When
asked by CNBC anchor Tyler Matheson about if the league
could have gotten ahead of or had a plan for
when the Angel rees Caitlin Clark Rivalry took a quote
darker and more menacing tone on social media, especially around
issues of race and SEXUALI. Englbert failed to directly respond
to the question. She instead focused her answer on the
(01:04):
boost to business provided by rivalries. Given the increase in
racists and vitriolic comments players have received this season, especially
players of color, Engelbert's answers spark backlash from fans, players,
and even the league's players Association. On Tuesday evening, the
Players Association released a statement written by executive director Terry Jackson.
It read, in part, quote, here's the answer that the
(01:25):
commissioner should have provided to the very clear question regarding
the racism, misogyny, and harassment experience by the players. There
is absolutely no place in sport or in life for
the vile hate, racist language, homophobic comments, and the misogynist
attacks our players are facing on social media. This is
not about rivalries or iconic personalities fueling a business model.
(01:47):
This kind of toxic fandom should never be tolerated or
left unchecked. It demands immediate action and frankly, should have
been addressed long ago.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
End quote.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
Individual players from the league have also been weighing in.
Asked about Engelbert's answer by ESPN, Las Vegas Aces point
guard Chelsea Gray said quote, I just think it's doing
a disservice to the majority of this league and not
talking about the part that it's consumed and played by
black women to basically be like, yep, we push it
under the carpet that racism is okay. So not being
direct and handling that, I think she did a poor
(02:18):
job of doing that. W n bp A vice president
Branda Stewart told reporter she was disappointed by Engelbert's answer too.
Speaker 2 (02:24):
Here's that audio.
Speaker 3 (02:25):
It's it's kind of disappointing to hear because you know
the way that the fans have surged and especially behind
Caitlin and Angel coming to this league, but also bringing
like a race aspect to a different level, and you know,
there's there's no place for that in our sport. And
I think that's really it is. We want our sport
(02:47):
to be inclusive for race, you know, gender and and
really a place where people can be themselves. So we
wish obviously Kathy would a platform in a different way
and have made that a little bit better, but kind
of just telling the fans like enough enough is enough,
(03:09):
you know, become a fan of our sport and for
the new ones, like lock in on everybody, but don't
be disrespectful because as a league, like we stick together
and there's there's no place for that.
Speaker 1 (03:20):
Engelbert posted a statement to Twitter late Tuesday night, writing quote,
during a recent media interview, I was asked about the
dark side of social media and online conversation about WNBA
rivalries and race. To be clear, there is absolutely no
place for hate or racism of any kind in the
WNBA or anywhere else.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
End quote.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
I don't think I'm alone. And having clicked directly on
that Kathy tweet expecting it to expand to more, it didn't.
It seems pretty unlikely that Engelbert's response will be enough
to quell the fire that was sparked by her interview.
We'll be talking about this a little bit more on
today's show with Frankie and Lindsay and with producer Mish
and as more continues to come out in response to
(03:59):
the end. In other WNBA news, there is just one
game tonight with the Dallas Wings hosting the New York Liberty,
and while the Wings have been eliminated from playoff contention,
there's one cool record that could be broken. Ariga Agumbowale
is currently eleven points away from becoming the franchise's all
time leading scorer, and in hoops and gay Shit news
(04:19):
on fiancetde couple, do Wanna Bonner and Alissa Thomas continue
to break records for the Connecticut Sun. Douana Bonner passed
Sue Byrd to move into seventh place on the WNBA
all time field goals made list, and Alissa Thomas moved
into first all time and steals in Connecticut's Sun history. Finally, ESPN,
whose regular season coverage of the w has wrapped, has
announced that the twenty twenty four WNBA regular season on
(04:42):
ESPN platforms was the most watched ever and buy a
lot up one hundred and seventy percent over last year's
regular season average, and their show WNBA countdown was up
one hundred and thirteen percent versus last year's average. You'll
love to see it.
Speaker 2 (05:00):
We're gonna take a quick break. When we come back.
Speaker 1 (05:01):
We'll talk with Lindsay and Frankie about a women's league
that has too often been overlooked.
Speaker 2 (05:05):
It's coming up next.
Speaker 1 (05:12):
She's a longtime women's sports writer, a columnist at Awful Announcing,
former women's soups writer for The Athletic. Her work has
appeared in The Ring or Dead's beIN ESPN, teen, Vogue,
and more. She's a Maxwell fan and probably rocking an
Angel Reese Times. Reese's piece is fit right now. It's
Lindsay dark Angela.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
What's up? Lindsay, what's up? You're not wearing that fit?
Speaker 4 (05:30):
No, I'm wearing wn WNBA though WNBA.
Speaker 1 (05:32):
Perfect perfect joining her there an award winning freelance writer
whose work focus is on the intersection of sports and gender.
Their work has appeared in The New York Times, Sports Illustrated, espnW, Vogue,
The Washington Post, The Atlantic, and more. Their dog might
be barking right in the middle of this interview. At
least we're gonna blame their dog and not mine. It's
Frankie de la Creta. What's up, Frankie?
Speaker 5 (05:51):
Hi, Sarah, I'm also rocking WNBA merch. It turns out so.
Speaker 1 (05:55):
I'm rocking my Kamala bratt hat that says we're not
going back so perfect?
Speaker 2 (05:59):
Could we be more feminist?
Speaker 1 (06:02):
Let's talk about this book you wrote, Hail Mary, The
Rise and Fall of the National Women's Football League. You
are on and joining us to honor the fiftieth anniversary
of that league, which is coming up on September fifteenth. Lindsay,
I just want to start with the basic how did
you two come together and write on this topic?
Speaker 4 (06:17):
And we have told this story like so many times.
I'll give you the quick sum up. Frankie and I
met in a Facebook group Geez back in like twenty sixteen,
and it was for you know, marginalized sports sports writers, women,
LGBTQ individuals, women of color, and basically it was a
(06:39):
group that was just full of people who are just
trying to establish themselves and support and share articles and
things of that nature. And Frankie and I got to
talking and they were writing, I believe a story on
the Toledo Troopers, who are the winningest team in the
NWFL and I think in football in general. They reach
(06:59):
out to me and asked me if you know, I
knew of any football related books that existed because they
knew I was a big football fan and there weren't any.
The type of books that were out there were basically
teaching women about football or how to get into football
to to you know, appease their boyfriend or whatever. And
(07:22):
then you know, I said, you know, you should write one,
and they said, well, only if you would write it
with me. And that's basically how it started. I mean
We basically went from there and created a book proposal
that was about women in football in general, over throughout
the period of history since football was created. But it
(07:45):
was too it was too broad, and our agent and
publishers asked us to narrow it down, and Frankie said,
you know this, did a little bit more research on
the Troopers and found out about the n w NWFL
and said this is what we should focus on, and
that's what we did.
Speaker 1 (08:05):
Yeah, tell us about the league? When did it kick
off on how long did it last?
Speaker 4 (08:10):
I kicked off September fifteenth, nineteen seventy four, and it
ran until nineteen eighty eight, so it lasted, you know,
for over a decade. And there were periods of growth
and where things look like they might take off and
come together, and then you know, eventually is some leagues
(08:31):
and women's sports history failed to you know, establish themselves
as what happened with the NWFL, and it eventually folded.
Speaker 1 (08:39):
Frankie, a lot of people might not even know that
there was an NWFL.
Speaker 2 (08:43):
Can you tell us about the research for the book?
Speaker 1 (08:44):
How much information was out there and how many former
participants or people with close ties to the league were
you actually able to find.
Speaker 5 (08:51):
You know, it's so wild to me how many people
did not know this league existed, even like women's sports
historians had not heard of this league. And considering that, yeah,
it was the first pro women's football league in the US,
has the winningest team in pro football history, men's or
women's in it. Like, the fact that people did not
know about this league was really surprising to us. And
(09:12):
I think that's why it felt so important to be
able to document this story. In terms of doing the research,
it kind of became like Domino's, you know, once you
found one person, the domino started to fall. We started
with newspaper archives and there would be player names in
those stories and we would look those people up Facebook,
(09:35):
their boomers. They were on Facebook, but we love it.
We found that a lot of the women on Facebook,
and usually finding one would lead to, you know, finding
a teammate. And I'll tell you almost every team had
almost like what I kind of referred to as like
their team historian. There was always the one player that
(09:56):
had the closet full of everything with the game program
and the memorabilia and the newspaper articles and things like that,
and so many of these women really were waiting for
somebody to call them, Like there was women who were
like I kind of gave up that anyone was ever
going to tell this story, or you know, some people
have been like I've been waiting forty years for someone
(10:16):
to care about this, and so once you start digging,
you know it is out there. And a lot of
the women were really really happy, happy to talk.
Speaker 1 (10:27):
I have to tell you, you're making me like emotional
just talking about it, because it's bringing to me memories
of the end of a league of their own and
that part of the movie. Like I remember watching it
the first couple of times when I was younger and
being like, oh, that's nice. And then I had like
a fifteen year gap and watched it again as an adult,
and I was like bawling about the idea of how
(10:48):
different life could have been for so many women who
cared so much about sport and just weren't given the opportunity.
And thinking about these women and how grateful they were
for you to show up and want to tell their stories,
and having them have kept all that stuffs hurts me.
Speaker 5 (11:01):
I will tell you. While we were writing the book,
there was the daughter of one of the Houston Hurricanes
players was filming a documentary. It's called The Hurricanes. It's
actually I think gonna be in theaters select theaters next month,
so people should check that out. But I was able
to fly down to Houston to film for that, but
(11:21):
I was there for a forty year anniversary reunion of
the team. The women hadn't seen each other since their
team folded unexpectedly in nineteen seventy nine, and it felt
like being in the illegue of their own scene where
they all see each other for the first time in
so long. And I think Lindsay and I both feel
(11:41):
this way. We still as familiar with the material as
we are and as well as we know this story.
Every time I watched that film, I cry. I've seen
it three times now. I've cried every time. It's I
think it's deeply, you know, moving, and it's emotional for
so many reasons.
Speaker 1 (11:57):
Yeah, yeah, Lindsay, what was the sponsor the league when
it first launched?
Speaker 4 (12:02):
There was there was intrigue. But so there's a whole backstory.
And this is what our book helps sort of parts out,
is it's it's not just about this specific league, but
when women first were introduced to the game and started
playing and started, you know, trying to establish themselves, whether
it was at the high school level or a play
(12:24):
a student at a high school who just got onto
the men's football team. Different things like that were happening
leading up to this. And then you have a man
named Sid Freeman out of out of Ohio who created
like a barnstorming team because he saw the potential, he
saw the curiosity for women playing football and he created
(12:48):
a team and so it was already and so they
played games and people would come and it was there
was already this momentum leading up and then when people
saw what he was doing, other teams popped up, you know,
at different parts of the country, and eventually that's what
led to the formation of the league. So there was
already an appetite for women playing football when the league launched,
(13:11):
and I think that sort of gave them a platform
to jump off from. As far as like received from
the media and people in football circles and particularly you
know men, you know they were it wasn't well received
(13:32):
at all in that regard. It was put down the
players were taken seriously. There was this whole thing where
they were accused in Isaiah accused because you know the
way feminism was used back then, they were accused of
being feminists or doing it for certain reasons. But and honestly,
and this goes back to what you were talking about
with the league of their own. When we talked to
these players, the sentiment was basically this, they loved the
(13:56):
game and they just wanted a chance to play, and
that was the driving force. But yeah, there as far
as how the league was received from from fans or
people who were who wanted to see it, there was
definitely a lot of hype.
Speaker 1 (14:09):
Was the coverage the same as we tend to see
even now, but especially in years past.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
Words basically split into two.
Speaker 1 (14:16):
It's either like, women shouldn't be allowed to do this,
This isn't ladylike and proper and safe. And then if
they're going to do it, can they wear shorter shorts.
Speaker 2 (14:24):
And crop tops?
Speaker 4 (14:25):
Yep? All of that.
Speaker 2 (14:27):
Wow, shocking that it was that easy for me to.
Speaker 4 (14:29):
Guess, Sarah, you have nailed it.
Speaker 5 (14:31):
You didn't even have to read the chapter.
Speaker 1 (14:32):
No, No, but I will, but I'll be angry while
I read it, because that's the same old story everything.
Speaker 4 (14:37):
Yeah, you already know, like Frank and I would send
article clips that we were you know, during our research
process back and forth with just absolute in absolute horror
at what we were reading and the way these women
were talked about. But it's not that far removed from
some of the stuff we've seen in you know, in
(14:59):
Today's Meet.
Speaker 1 (15:00):
The number of times I've had to write the same
story and replace the name FIFA head set. Bladders suggests
that soccer for women would be better if they were
short or shorts.
Speaker 5 (15:09):
Yeah, although I mean, I will say it's funny. You know,
Lindsay mentioned Sid Friedman and part of his you know,
barnstorming Harlem Globetrotter's ask vision that he had for these
women was he wanted like tear away skirts. He invited
Husmer magazine out, Yeah, basically, and the women were really
not having it And part of the reason that they
(15:31):
broke away from him was because they wanted to be
taken seriously as football players. And I think this is
the difference too between right, we've talked about a league
of their own. If we look at the time period
and like, you know, the nineteen forties and fifties that
league was, we're talking about the late you know, or
mid to late seventies. Now there has been some progress
to the point that the women that were playing football
(15:52):
were much less willing to wear the skirt to be
on the field. They instead were like, actually, we're going
to take our own league. One team formed a corporation
to purchase themselves from their male owners so that they
could incredible have control over themselves. And so you do
see that shift, you know, happening. And then the women
are trying. You know, it's like the men see them
(16:14):
as a joke, but the women make it, make it real,
you know.
Speaker 1 (16:18):
Brief aside, I was in Vancouver just a couple months
ago to give a speech and I went to breakfast
and my waitress said, oh, where are you from, Like
she could tell I was visiting, And what are you
here for? I said, women's sports, saying YadA YadA, And
she said, you know what I just saw the other
day for the first time, this lingerie league football. What
a great idea. I can't believe this isn't a bigger thing.
And I was like, Ah, what year is this?
Speaker 2 (16:39):
What year am I in?
Speaker 5 (16:41):
Only truly, but can we discuss that that league is
still the only like women's football league that ever had
like a cable deal.
Speaker 1 (16:48):
And can we also talk about how those athletes were
freaking insane so talented. It made me sad every time
I watched. I didn't watch a lot. I watched to
do a story on it, and I was like, these
women are badasses and this is what we're doing.
Speaker 2 (17:02):
This is so sad.
Speaker 1 (17:04):
Craig, you just mentioned one about a team buying themselves back,
But are there any other like stories about people or
teams involved that really stood out to While you were
reporting that, you were like, oh my god, everyone needs
to hear about this.
Speaker 5 (17:15):
I mean, I think there's there's definitely several that is
you know, the Columbus Paysetters are They're one of my favorite.
They were the team that ran the longest. They ran
the whole length of the league from seventy four to
eighty eight, and yeah they did. They they formed a
corporation and purchased themselves from the men that owned them,
and that was pretty incredible. I also had a real,
(17:38):
you know, soft spot for the Dallas Bluebonnets. I wrote
their story and I love that team. The majority of
the women that showed up to try out for that
team found out about the tryouts and like their local
lesbian bar, and so I got to do a very
like I did not know that I was going to
end up doing like a deep dive on the history
(17:59):
of lesbian bars and Alice in the nineteen seventies. But
it turns out the scenes happen. And what's cool is
some of those players still see each other because they
still go line dancing at the lesbian bar in Dallas.
Speaker 4 (18:10):
I love So.
Speaker 5 (18:13):
I really liked getting to tell that story, particularly from
like a cultural standpoint. And I know, like I think
Lindsay has teams, you know, we kind of each have
different stories in the book that we Yeah, is.
Speaker 2 (18:29):
There one that stands out to Lindsay?
Speaker 4 (18:31):
Oh, yeah, for sure. There's a player who played for
the La Dandellions. Her name is Rose Low, and she
was their quarterback. And at first she didn't she didn't
want to talk about the league. She had been burned
in the past when opening up about things. She was
very hesitant. And everybobody else who I contact and from
(18:51):
that team gets saying, you got to talk to Rose.
You got to talk to Rose because she was one
of those team historians who had a bunch of documents
and video to share and had saved memorabilia. She was
also like one of the captains. And you know, she
just was so hesitant to open up, which I don't
blame her at all. And she kept started off first
(19:15):
texting me, and then we did like a preliminary call,
and then once she felt comfortable, man, the floodgates opened
and she just she shared. She shared so much. I mean,
this book, my part of the book wouldn't be complete
without her and what the information she provided. But when
we finished the book and it came out, she sent
me She not only sent me care packages throughout the
(19:38):
writing process, but she sent me a care package at
the end when it was published. And actually Frankie and
I were out in LA for the La Book Festival
in twenty twenty one, we got to meet her. She
came and she gave us both care packages. Again, I think,
oh so sweet.
Speaker 3 (19:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (19:53):
So it's just that's how, that's how just grateful a
lot of these players were to hear their see their
story being told.
Speaker 1 (20:00):
I ask what had happened to her in her previous
time speaking to press about it.
Speaker 4 (20:05):
I think just being you know, in interviews and stuff.
A lot of these players were asked some of the
same questions over and over again, you know, about why
they're playing and why they think they belonged there, you know,
were they were they just doing it for feminism and
things of that nature. And she never really felt like
anyone took them seriously as athletes. And you know, they
(20:29):
were in a period of time where Tyle nine had
just happened, and they were just the door had just
been opened for women to be able to try to
play sports, different sports at the college level and try
different things here and there, and so it was like
this brand new world that opened up for her, and
you know, to still be treated in a way where
you felt like, oh, it's one step forward, two steps
(20:51):
back kind of a thing was was really tough.
Speaker 2 (20:53):
It's hard.
Speaker 1 (20:53):
Yeah, yeah, frank you what happened to the league?
Speaker 2 (20:57):
Why did it shut down?
Speaker 5 (20:58):
Lack of funds? Really is you know, old story. It's
the same old story. And I think what you know
it's the same old story, particularly with like women's leagues, right,
is that we can see that men's leagues, Uh, you know,
it takes at least a decade usually for leagues and
teams to see like any sort of profit and people
(21:19):
will continue funding men's leagues and men's teams even when
they are losing money. But when women's leagues don't make
money the first year, people want to bail and all.
Speaker 2 (21:28):
The product and not the investment.
Speaker 5 (21:30):
Yeah, and the men that owned these teams had no
experience in owning any teams before, and they thought that
this was going to be like a quick buck. They
really thought they were going to turn around a profit
in a year or two, and unfortunately that's just not
how it works. And so I think a combination. Also,
there was a lot of press coverage at the beginning
(21:52):
because it was seen as kind of was it a gimmick?
What is it? It was something new, And you will
see we have a really hard time putting together the
story of like really like the nineteen eighties. We don't
cover that much in the book because the press coverage
had like nearly stopped. And so if you don't have
a lot of you know, you don't have press coverage,
people don't know about the games. No one is going
(22:13):
and no one is putting any money into this. I
mean the women paid for this out of their own pocket.
Most of them were promised twenty five dollars a game.
The majority of them never got that they are like
hosting car washes, raffles, the things that you know, women's
football players are still doing today still happen, you know,
and so ultimately they just couldn't sustain it.
Speaker 2 (22:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:36):
Well, I recommend everybody read the book Hail Mary, The
Rise and Fall of the National Women's Football League. I've
read excerpts from it. I'm fascinated by the topic. I'm
really looking forward to reading it. And it was very cool.
I saw the T shirt company Homage actually reached out
to me. They created T shirts honoring the fiftieth anniversary
of the league. You can actually still grab them Homage
dot com. There's some really cool ones, the Detroit Demons
(22:56):
one and the Philadelphia Queen Bees especially.
Speaker 2 (22:58):
I love those.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
Tea's actually got a handful of them for some friends
and it's a really cool way to keep the memory
of those teams alive and be rocking their gear.
Speaker 5 (23:07):
Yeah, they're so called. The Demons were hand me down
Lions jerseys actually, so they are the same colors as
Allies and the Dallas Bluebonnets played in Cowboy Stadium.
Speaker 2 (23:17):
Awesome, very cool gift, by the way.
Speaker 1 (23:19):
I'm I'm not this is not paid for by homage,
but they should be paying me for this, like just
giving it to like I think little girls or little
boys to like have them be talking about what's that
team and what were they is really cool Before we
let you go, because I love talking to.
Speaker 2 (23:34):
You about football.
Speaker 1 (23:35):
I also know that y'all talk a lot about basketball
and write a lot about basketball, and particularly the intersection
of race and sports. We heard Kathy Engelbert, the commissioner
of the WNBA a couple of days ago, on a
CNBC show with a very incomplete which is the nicest
way of saying it, answer about some of the racial
rhetoric around the two star rookies of the league and
(23:56):
how that's affected coverage overall of the league and sort
of affected the experiences of the players, not just those rookies,
but everybody. And she put out a very flimsy statement
acknowledging maybe one major part she forgot, but certainly players.
The executive director of the WNBPA, a lot of other
people have had thoughts on what she should have said.
In response to the question, lindsay, this was your account
(24:18):
for a really long time when you worked at the
Athletic and I wonder how much of a disconnect do
you think there is between the commissioner slash front office
and the coaches and players of a league that is
so known for its progressive thinking and also its collaborative
ability to rally around issues like this.
Speaker 4 (24:35):
Yeah. See, this is what I have a hard time
believing that Kady Angelbert is not aware of this because
the league before we got to this point where games
are actually being shown, games are accessible, like everything's being
talked about in mainstream media as far as women's basketball
goes nowadays, it wasn't always like that, and they, the
(24:59):
league it's self leverage social media to get to this point.
Games used to be shown on Twitter now x, you know,
and WNBA Twitter was this community that involved fans and players,
but teams as well and as well as you know,
the league itself too. Everything sort of interacted. And to
(25:20):
know that the WNBA got to this point where it
is and was able to leverage better, you know, broadcast
deals and get more games on television National Intellivision was
because of social media like that has always been part
of its existence since social media was you know, was invented.
So for her to to not be aware about how
(25:43):
things have turned or changed in regards to social media
is surprising to me. So either she's was being you know,
was purposely dodging the question, or is it is just
incredibly unaware of what's happening and just I've disconnected. Yeah,
and it just it's hard for me. It's hard for
(26:04):
me to believe that, honestly.
Speaker 2 (26:07):
Yeah, Frank you do you have thoughts on that?
Speaker 5 (26:10):
Yeah, I think if she's going to be a white
commissioner of a majority black league, she needs to do
a better job. I think it's really really irresponsible and unacceptable.
I also find it completely ahistorical to continue to talk
about these two players, you know, let's be clear Angel
Reason Caitlin Clark and say that they're trying to have
(26:34):
the kind of modern and women's version of the like
Magic Johnson Larry Bird rivalry, and ignore the racism that
underlied that too. It's completely a historical to erase that
because yes, it was a black player and a white player,
and guess what comes with that often is racism and
that was present you know at that time too, and
(26:56):
to pretend that it wasn't and it was just about
the basketball really ignores the reality of that situation and
what Magic Johnson went through, right, and what Angel Reese
is going through now and the other players, you know,
because it's not just Angel Reese, right, d Jenny Carrington
has talken about this as well, Kenny. We seen Kennedy Carter,
(27:17):
you know, and so And.
Speaker 1 (27:18):
To be fair, because we've made this a race and
culture war, we're assigning to players belief systems and entire
backgrounds that we know nothing about, and so we need,
like Cameron Brink to do an interview for us to
be like, oh few, yay, you know, like like that's
not fair to anyone that it's not that, you know, I.
Speaker 5 (27:36):
Do wish Caitlyn Clark had explicitly made comment earlier. It
took someone reading de Johnny Carrington's tweet to her in
Oppressor to get like an actual clear I condemn this.
I feel like the people around it's you know, and
Caitlin Clark is young. I feel like the people around
(27:56):
her really should have been, you know, helped her get there.
And there's sort of been a clearer statement earlier because
this isn't new. It has been happening since college. And yeah,
it's not just Angel, it's you know, any player who
is black, who is masculine, who you know, because that
has come in as well as you know, sexuality is
(28:18):
being targeted if they even look at Caitlyn Clark wrong
on the court.
Speaker 1 (28:23):
Right, Yeah, I mean, I think we've talked about what
is what was the plan, and what is the plan
for Caitlyn's team and for the league as a whole,
understanding how she's been weaponized in this way. Whatever the
plan was, it hasn't worked in terms of making her
feel completely immune to it.
Speaker 4 (28:41):
Right.
Speaker 1 (28:42):
Just saying I'm just focused on basketball will only work
for so long until people believe that you know what's
going on and you're being either intentionally obtuse or you
tacitly agree because you won't speak out against it.
Speaker 4 (28:54):
Yeah. I just wanted to add to that. You know,
this league and the three of us know this. Obviously,
we've been around, we know the history. But this league
has often thrived and evolved because of the players. You know.
It's it's they haven't. It's not. It hasn't gotten to
where it is today because of the leadership. But in
spite of it, the players are the ones who have
(29:17):
used their voices and their platforms to enact change and
this is this is what's happening now with this incident
and what who she was given a lob, Kathy Engelbert
was given a LB on a television national television show
or whatever it was to to to meet the moment,
and she she missed the lab completely. And the players
(29:37):
are now scrambling picking up the ball, trying to save
the play. And they're the ones who are now being
asked about it, who are now saying what should have
been said in the first place, And they're the ones
who are going to shoulder this going forward.
Speaker 1 (29:51):
Yeah, And that's what's so impressive about this league is
that the players are equipped, yep, to answer and to
like you said, meet the moment in a way that
often the executives in front office are not, which is
both a result of lived experience for many of them,
but also potentially points out the disconnect between those who
(30:11):
are the strength of the league and those who are
running it. And what I felt about Kathy's response was
that it was so capitalistic in nature. It was how
do I spin these awful things into good for business?
And completely ignorant to the experience of the people actually
enduring the issues and also to the long term effect
it might have on the league if you just let
(30:33):
it go unchecked, right, Like, you could say all you
want rivalries are good, that's true, could say all you
want people like, don't want everyone to just be nice?
Speaker 2 (30:40):
That's true. But also what does this league.
Speaker 1 (30:42):
Become if those of us that have been covering have
been in those spaces to your point, Lindsay, have been
on social forever, have seen so drastically a change in
how the players are being treated, talked about all of
that stuff. And it's not always good when you just
get more eyeballs. Those eyeballs and those people talk fucking
need to not be damaging the product, which is what
(31:03):
we've seen a lot of this year.
Speaker 4 (31:04):
Yeah, there's mental and emotional ads. It's like an adult
telling a child, oh, you know who's being bullied, Oh,
just ignore it, and not being totally naive to the
mental and the emotional damage that's being done.
Speaker 1 (31:20):
Well, I appreciate your thoughts on it. I think it's
super complicated. I think unfortunately it's really gotten in the
way of covering a lot of the basketball this year.
So it's like it needs to be addressed and handled.
You need to get out in front of it and
have a really good collaborative plan for it.
Speaker 2 (31:34):
And also you need to.
Speaker 1 (31:35):
Do that just so we could talk about how amazing
the basketball is and get to the good shit, because there's.
Speaker 2 (31:41):
Been a lot of it this season. Thank you again
to Frankie and Lindsay for joining me.
Speaker 1 (31:46):
You can read Lindsay at Awful Announcing, and you can
check out Frankie's Queer sports newsletter out of your League.
We'll link to all that in our show notes. We
have to take another break when we come back. Meichwas
in on the Kathy Engelbert interview and Siemens Bank would
like to make a deposit nex welcome back slices meish
(32:07):
Before we move on, I did want to ask if
you had thoughts on the Kathy engelbird thing.
Speaker 2 (32:10):
I know we've been talking a lot.
Speaker 1 (32:11):
Off the air about it, so wanted to give you
a chance to have a say on the era as well.
Speaker 4 (32:17):
I appreciate it.
Speaker 6 (32:18):
And before I get into this rant I'm about to
go on, I just want to say how glad I
am that you, me and Alex are able to have
those conversations like that. Is just it's enriching for me
as a young person in this space to know that, like,
there is a way to talk about these issues with
you know, real pure intentions behind it, so that we
(32:39):
can find solutions and find better ways of doing and being.
Speaker 2 (32:43):
So just shout out to y'all. Shout out to y'all
and to you too. Oh appreciate you so listening in
on that interview.
Speaker 6 (32:49):
I really thought something Frankie said hit the nail on
the head for me. They said, Kathy is a white
woman commissioner of a majority black league, and that is
a crucial position and responsibility to hold.
Speaker 2 (33:01):
I feel like at this.
Speaker 6 (33:02):
Particular juncture, it's a privilege just to sit in that seat.
A And let me be clear, it's also a result
of Kathy's white privilege that she felt comfortable not directly
addressing the question that CNBC's Tyler Matheson asked her, the
heart of which was what's your plan to combat the
racist and homophobic targeting that w players are dealing with?
(33:23):
What's the plan to nip all that bullshit in the bud?
And to me, to be audacious enough to skip over
the meat of that question is white privilege. Do I
think her intent was malicious?
Speaker 2 (33:34):
No? I really don't.
Speaker 6 (33:36):
But I think it's also important to remember, like I said,
this is a critical juncture for the league. There are
so many people I can imagine would love to sit
in the seat that she's sitting.
Speaker 5 (33:45):
In right now.
Speaker 6 (33:46):
I mean, look at Terry Jackson, who released the statement
She felt moved to do that and have a better
response to Tyler's question three whole hours before Kathy bothered
to put fingers to touch screen and address the question herself,
And so that bothers me a lot. And my last
point I want to.
Speaker 2 (34:03):
Make here is I think she'd be foolish to take.
Speaker 6 (34:06):
For granted that the majority of players that make up
the league feel supported, because if they don't feel supported
by the executive face of the league, there's a possibility
that the W falls lower on their priority list because
we're already starting to see other leagues unrivaled AU popping
up like wildfire. And if the goal is to keep
the W the premier destination for talent not just from
(34:27):
the US but around the world, players need to know
that the league and its commissioner understands where they're coming
from and has their back when shit gets chaotic. Not
that concerns will be met with non answers and empty platitudes.
Speaker 2 (34:39):
So that's all I got to say about it.
Speaker 1 (34:43):
Heard well said, and I think it comes back to
what I mentioned yesterday about what feels like a disconnect
between a league of players and coaches that seem to
really get it, and maybe a front office or at
very least a commissioner that doesn't necessarily, at least based
on what we heard from her and that follow up tweet,
I'm putting out a bat signal right now. I would
love to have someone like neck Ogou Mackay from the
(35:05):
Players Association, a leader in this league, really get into
it with us, because it has felt like such a
unified front. But when I think about it now, it
feels like that unified front has just been players right.
Speaker 2 (35:16):
Meish like exactly exactly.
Speaker 1 (35:18):
We've always heralded this league's unity, but what we're starting
to see now is maybe that is really just those
players making those decisions and coming together. That superb documentary
The Power of the Dream, like you look at what happened.
That was just a bunch of players coming together and
literally flipping the Senate being fed up. Yeah, and I
think I've always maybe wrongly assumed that leadership over there
(35:42):
was was mirroring that effort by the players, And now
I'm starting to wonder if maybe it's in spite of so.
Speaker 6 (35:49):
It's like having a star player on your team and
your coach has never played or coached a game in
their lives. You get to ride their coat tails. It's
exactly like that.
Speaker 4 (35:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (35:58):
Well, we're gonna keep talking about this for sure, but
I really appreciate what you had to say, Mesh.
Speaker 2 (36:01):
Thank you for that.
Speaker 1 (36:02):
We're going to lighten up the mood for a second
because earlier this week we did ask you for the
absolutely worst possible sponsor for a women's sports team. This,
of course, was the result of me going to dinner
with a bunch of women's sports exec including the president
of The Valkyrie, who was about to announce a jersey sponsor,
and I threw out, you know, Lover's Lane, Kay, why delly?
It got us talking about some of the worst, and
(36:24):
y'all came with some good ones. Pamela Mudway emailed us
and kept it short and sweet and just said, I
mean Siemens Bank, that is a good one. At Kenny
Metrov wrote and said Shepherd's Men's Wear, that's the actual
clothing line by Harrison, Butker that is wrong, that's so
wrong at Drew underscore TNB gotta be Summer's Eve, which
(36:46):
honestly reminds me of when Michael Jordan was on Saturday
Ight Live and he said, you know, sometimes I made
some bad decisions about the sponsorships I did, and then
I had him walking around a lake talking to someone
about that not so.
Speaker 2 (36:57):
Fresh feeling MJ at Troy T. Carlson said, rufe and al.
Speaker 1 (37:05):
He also said, I'm probably put on a list now
just for typing out that word. You probably are. And
also you took a real dark turn there, Troy, but
you're not wrong. That would be an absolutely terrible sponsor
at r J Slivan nine. The RNC wouldn't be great
and shout out to Patrick Netherton. He reminded me of
that SNL ESPN Classic set of sketches. It was Jason
(37:27):
Sadaikas and Will Forte playing broadcasters and from all the
different ESPN Classic Women's competitions. They had ridiculous sponsors and
some of the lines I'm actually surprised as I was
reading them back that they were on broadcast television, even
late night here's a couple of them, tam PACs helping
you relax when mother nature attacks your slacks. Stay Free
(37:50):
Pad's long drive competition.
Speaker 2 (37:52):
When you have your monthly Boo boo.
Speaker 1 (37:54):
Put these by your who who Stay free Maxi pads
the downstairs patch for your baby hatch. I see London,
I see China, I see one happy vagina, Stay free
Maxi pats. When your uterine lining looks like the elevator
from the Shining And my favorite Ky Jelly Ladies shot
put Championship, No for play today. Hey, that's okay, Ky Jelly,
(38:19):
protect her from your girth with the greatest lube on earth.
When you're seeing sparks where your penis parks, Ky Jelly,
make some room for Paco.
Speaker 2 (38:26):
Put some sauce on that taco.
Speaker 1 (38:29):
Oh honestly, that might have been where my brain went
when I originally suggested that the Valkyries go with Ky
Jelly as a Jersey sponsor. I mean, you can bet
that roughly thirty percent of my brain power is just
dedicated to Old Saturn Night Live sketches.
Speaker 2 (38:43):
Thank you as always for chiming in. We love to
hear from you slices.
Speaker 1 (38:47):
Just remember we love that you're listening, but we always
want you to get in the game every day too,
So today's good gameplay of the day is very easy.
Just buy the book Hail Mary, The Rise and Fall
of the National Women's Football League.
Speaker 2 (38:58):
We'll put a link in the show notes. Check it out,
and we love to hear from you.
Speaker 1 (39:02):
To hit us up good game at Wondermedia neetwork dot
com or leave us a voicemail at eight seven two
two o four fifty seventy. Don't forget to subscribe, rate
and review my little slices just like this. The corn
Maze at the Apple Orchard where I got married, rating
five out of five Cornstocks review. Shout out to County
Line Orchard in northwest Indiana for this year's corn Maze.
(39:25):
Per their website quote at Countyline Orchard, we're celebrating women's
sports by designing our maze in the likeness of Caitlin Clark.
Her incredible success and impact on the WNBA is a
huge inspiration and as a proud Indiana business, we wanted
to pay tribute.
Speaker 2 (39:39):
To her achievements. End quote. You gotta love this amazing
support of women's sports. Oh she could read that pun
because it works both ways. You know corn maze, mazees
corn anyway.
Speaker 1 (39:50):
Clark got a butter statue in Iowa, if you remember that,
and then she got a corn maze in Indiana.
Speaker 2 (39:55):
This is big Midwest energy. I don't think you can
get a duo of Midwest tributes that are stronger than that.
Speaker 1 (40:01):
Also, you know, ratings, attendance, merge, media coverage. It's all
well and good, but you know that women's sports have
really made it when they're breaking.
Speaker 2 (40:08):
Through on the old Fall festival circuit.
Speaker 1 (40:10):
Next up, we'll get to carve Caitlin's face in a
pumpkin and you old pumpkin spice latte with her face
in the foam.
Speaker 2 (40:17):
The PSL game. That's where the real money is.
Speaker 1 (40:20):
Now. It's your turn, rate and review with love and
hope from your childless dog mom.
Speaker 2 (40:24):
We'll see you tomorrow.
Speaker 1 (40:25):
Good game, Frankie, Good Game, Lindsay h Air bawling layups
on important issues. Good Game with Sarah Spain is an
iHeart women's sports production in partnership with Deep Blue Sports
and Entertainment. You can find us on the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Production by
Wonder Media Network, Our producers are Alex Azzi and Misha Jones.
(40:47):
Our executive producers are Christina Everett, Jesse Katz, Jenny Kaplan.
Speaker 2 (40:51):
And Emily Rudder.
Speaker 1 (40:52):
Our editors are Jenny Kaplan, Emily Rudder, Brittany Martinez and
Grace Lynch. Production assistants from Lucy Jones and I'm Your
Host Sarah Spain
Host
Sarah Spain
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