July 30, 2025 • 36 mins
ESPN soccer reporter Jeff Kassouf joins Sarah to discuss Mia Fishel’s big-money move to the Seattle Reign, his thoughts on the rollout of expansion team Denver Summit FC, the top storylines he’s keeping an eye on in the second half of the NWSL season and the biggest challenges facing the league in the next five years. Plus, what’s with the quiet start to Leo season? It's time to ROAR!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Good Game with Sarah Spain, where we are
never not going to trip over the work, where we
are never going to not trip over the words Rivalry Week, Rivalry,
the Rural juror, shout out thirty Rock. It's Wednesday, July thirtieth,
and on today's show, we'll be skipping the needs to
(00:20):
know and jumping straight into my conversation with ESPN soccer
reporter and friend of the show Jeff Cassou. He returns
to the show to talk about me officials, big money
move to the Seattle Rain, his thoughts on Denver Summit
FC's rollout, and the top storylines he's keeping an eye
on in the second half of the NWSL season and beyond.
It's all coming up right after this, joining us now
(00:50):
for a return visit to the show. He's been covering
soccer with an emphasis on advancing the women's game since
two thousand and eight. In two thousand and nine, he
launched The Equalizer, the leading website dedicated to exclusively to
comprehensive women's soccer coverage in North America, before joining ESPN
to become the outlet's lead NWSL and US Women's National
team reporter. He's happier than anyone that the NWSL finally
(01:11):
released a season schedule footprint with months to spare.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
It's Jeff casup Hi, Jeff.
Speaker 3 (01:16):
You know me, Well, Sarah, this is like I mean,
it's amazing news that we can plan for next year.
This summer truly unprecedented.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
Yeah, I'm going to have to just fold up my
wear's the schedule meg shirt and never wear it again.
Speaker 3 (01:30):
You know.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
Well, thanks for coming back to the show.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
How was the NWSL hiatus for you, because I know
a couple break in news moments sort of interrupted your piece.
Speaker 3 (01:38):
Yeah, I think I had one as it ever goes
that while I was trying to get away, I'm going
to think, you know, as the cycle of covering this
sport goes. I mean obviously there were Euros and everything,
but it's at least from a US perspective, more of
a down summer in the cycle. So yeah, attempted to
do a little bit more family stuff than I would
in like a World Cup.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
Year, And you almost made it until the me official
news hit and we found out she was leaving Chelsea
and signing with Seattle Rain through twenty twenty nine. Actually,
I got to see her in the Thorns Rain friendly
last Saturday. Can you tell us more about why you
think that move happened now and talk about what she
adds to this Seattle team.
Speaker 3 (02:17):
Yeah, I think one hundred percent that her eyes are
on the twenty twenty seven World Cup. I mean, you
look at Chelsea and you know, I think saying this
obviously knowing that and acknowledging that she's a high quality,
international caliber forward is just that is you know, one
of the elite club teams in the world. It's it's stacked.
Obviously some uncertainty waiting to see if Sam Kirr comes back,
but you know, it's it's a place where she not
(02:40):
necessarily guaranteed to be the everyday starter, I think, and
I think at this phase where she's trying to maybe
be the everyday starter for the US, she needs that
in the club environment. And you know, obviously I think
I mean I reported on some of the financials. That's
a big piece of this. I think, as you know
what we believe to be the highest paid aggregate contract
so far in league history, but also you know, the
(03:03):
everyday experience of being the number nine for a club
where that might not have been the case, I'm assuming
she read that writing on the wall a little bit
at Chelsea and you know, needs that With this year
and a half or so build up into the twenty
twenty seven World Cup, I.
Speaker 1 (03:17):
Think some folks might be surprised to hear she's the
highest paid player ever in the NWSL based on the
accounting that was done unofficially. What is she capable of
when healthy and why was the price so high?
Speaker 3 (03:28):
Well, I think some of the economics are really a
state of the ongoing evolution. I mean, this is, you know,
the Naomi Garma transfer to a degree in the winter,
and that's the biggest ever, and then that's immediately you know,
captain the summer. So I think that's just the state
that we're in where things are changing so rapidly that
we're in an environment where there's a record upon a
record relatively every transfer season.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
It's like NFL quarterbacks at this point.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
Yeah yeah, every time a really good one signs, the
number goes up.
Speaker 3 (03:56):
Yeah, exactly. And I don't know when that stops, exactly,
because obviously the nwsls operate in their cap world, which
is supposed to be future proof. Maybe it is, maybe
it isn't but I think that informs the economics a
little bit, like at a at a large scale. And
then forficial specifically, yeah, I mean I think, you know,
rising top American forward. You know, I think there's probably
(04:18):
there's only so many players available at a given time,
right Seattle is a team that is in the middle
of a rebuild, has a chance to kind of get
a younger franchise player here, and you know, I think
it's an opportunity for them to make a move for
the long term. So I think there's a lot of
sort of outside factors. And then obviously for her, yeah,
I think she's proven in the time that we've seen her,
(04:39):
which has been a little bit limited so far, that
that she's a very good number nine, can play as
a back to goal forward and can score goals. She's
a poacher in front of net, and now she'll look
to prove that in the n OFBSL quickly.
Speaker 1 (04:54):
Is it necessary to be local to the NWSL in
terms of being seen for the US women's national team
in the same way anymore, or is it just as
likely if you're playing in the European League and crushing
it that you're going to get the same opportunity.
Speaker 3 (05:06):
Yeah, I don't think it's as essential these days, especially
with maas in charge and global scouting, global availability of games.
I think I think it's unique to every individual, but
I think the days of you have to be here
are probably gone.
Speaker 1 (05:20):
You mentioned Naomi Germa the first million dollar transfer in
women's soccer, and then this summer we saw the first
million euro transfer from Arsenal for Liverpool's Olivia Smith. Can
the NWSL keep up with that kind of spending well
restrained by a salary cap or will they start to
fall behind and getting those players if they don't change
the system.
Speaker 3 (05:37):
Yeah, I think the system's going to need ongoing evolution.
So I think I would guess the short answer of
like as it's written now, I'm going to say no,
and that's you know, they've tried to future proof it.
The cap goes up every year. There is a caveat
there for if they're profitable with the media rights, and
you know that can increase some more. But I think
(05:58):
they're going to have to come up with a system.
We see it in MLS right. I mean they got
rid of allocation money, but now expansion teams have come
in without a draft and suddenly there's allocation money again, right,
So I think we're in this space, you know, similar
to I said of the market evolving NonStop. I think
the NWSL is in a place where they're going to
be evaluating these rules on an annual basis, and the
(06:21):
cap itself is written in stone. But we're probably looking
at a scenario where whether it's allocation money or some
kind of other sort of funny money, like, they're going
to have to come up with ways to keep up.
And you know, there's not many people, like very few
teams could spend a million on a transfer right now.
I mean San Diego's got some money in the bank
from the Germa outgoing transfer, but like that's a very
(06:43):
difficult prospect. So as far as the World Elite Stars,
which obviously Trini Rodman is probably the one we're all
watching this summer and going into winter, that is, that's
going to be a difficult one for all these teams.
Speaker 1 (06:55):
You mentioned Trinity Rodman, she's back to training for the Spirit.
What have you heard about her health and expectation for
her in the second half.
Speaker 3 (07:01):
Yeah, I mean I think, look, health is going to
be an ongoing situation. I mean, I think she said
to herself that she doesn't know for back will ever
be one hundred percent, And I think that's that's tough
to hear for a relatively young player. And hopefully whatever
club in the you know, short and long term future
she's with can manage that alongside the US, And you know,
(07:23):
I think that's going to be something for the US
to to monitor and maybe worry about a little bit,
because it's it's you know, I mean to come back
for one US game, to come back for a few
games in the NWSL and then be back on the
sideline is an issue for her, for the US, for
the SPIRIT, and then obviously the big question that we're
looking at, I think at large from AFAR is just
(07:43):
what happens next. I mean, we're into July first, is
coming gone, so she's free to talk with anybody in
the world. I'm sure that has logically begun to some degree,
and I think that, you know, she is very much
emerging as the superstar of this league. So I think
this is a spirit question and problem potentially, but it's
also one for the league as well.
Speaker 1 (08:04):
Yeah, and she has said on the record, I anticipate
I'm going to just play in Europe at sometime. It's
just a matter of when it's experience I want to have,
you know, as we're paying attention to the WNBA and
players trying to renegotiate a CBA and get a higher
percentage of revenue, and the conversation around pay is such
a big one. In the NWSL. The players now have
(08:26):
access to an internal database that details player salaries, but
we don't see them and know most of them publicly.
Speaker 2 (08:34):
This was made to help with.
Speaker 1 (08:36):
Salary negotiations, but it means that folks like you are
trying to source that type of information, you don't have
it actually laid out for you. Do you think it
would help increase player salaries and be beneficial for the
players if there was more transparency and if there could
be a public fight around their worth.
Speaker 3 (08:54):
Well, look, selfishly, I'd love to see it. It is
a I would say, very sort of limited dialogue that
is existed internally between some of us in media and
leadership at a at a league level. I don't foresee
it happening anytime soon, frankly, and yeah, I think it
would help on this end of the job. Would it
help ultimately the player and the you know, I guess
(09:17):
from their perspective, I mean, you know, they could they
already see it internally, so they know, right, So that
means the agents know, the teams know. You know, I
do think that there is I will always argue for
these things that there is a level of benefit to
public information when it comes to you know, salaries, contract
terms at minimum, to know when people are expiring. So yes,
(09:40):
I do think there's a level of benefit. The fact
that exists internally, I think actually makes it probably a
harder sell to make it public because they can negotiate
like that already and know each other's salaries. So yeah,
but I do think from a fan perspective it helps.
There are a lot of benefits, and we're no longer
in the days where like like I think we all
are are humans. The very few of us who have
(10:01):
done this long enough to remember those days, like the
six thousand dollars minimum contract in twenty thirteen, Does anybody
need that public? Probably not, But you know, we're in
a day where that has obviously changed. It's not we're
not talking about million dollar contracts across the board. But
you know, I think that the contracts are respectable now.
People are increasingly wanting to talk about the financials, especially
(10:22):
when they're records, of course, and I think that we
should be headed there. I don't think it's imminent though.
Speaker 1 (10:27):
As we talk about players going to Europe and back,
we also see coaches doing that, including the transfer of
Spirit head coach Jonathan Heraldez to Michelle Kang's other team,
Oh el Leon. So what do you make of Michelle
Kang's multi club ownership. How can she run the Spirit
and run another women's pro team without there being a
conflict of interest there?
Speaker 3 (10:48):
Yeah, I mean, I think that's that's ultimately the question, right,
And I don't think you know, I would say both
things true in that scenario. Is I do think that
was an individual case that was not necessarily one person
moving the chess pieces as they pleased. But I also
think it's it's obviously a very tough pr hit when
you know, the messaging is that we're not going to
(11:09):
move pay players, at least from place to place, and
you know, arguably the one of the best club coaches
in the world is moving from one side to the
other and within the organization. So I think it's a
huge it's a potentially big optics problem when when these
types of things happen, I don't think it's the last
time it'll happen, whether it's player or coach. I mean
(11:29):
it's not the only one either, right. You look at
the flip side. Kansas City just started this with HP
Ker in Denmark and they've openly said we are going
to do it, and they've already had a handful of
players move over there.
Speaker 1 (11:42):
So yeah, for those who don't know the current owners,
the owners of the current who are also the current
owners of the current have purchased another team and are
now making some player moves between the teams, which we've
of course seen partnerships between teams before abroad and the NWSL,
but now having shared ownership makes it a little stickier, right, Yeah.
Speaker 3 (12:05):
But I mean they've been pretty open about it, whereas
like Michelle Kang has said, very much best team in
each country, we're not going to move parts around. So yeah,
I think that's difficult, and it's particularly difficult when you
talk about historically the best club in the world in
Lyon and then one of the best teams right now
or you know, fighting to be so inarguably the best
(12:26):
league in the world who they are. There's no obvious
front and center. And then London City is now in
the top flight. I'm sure there's going to be a
push there financially and otherwise to make that team competitive
and get to Europe. So I think it's a difficult task,
if nothing else from an optics perspective, but yeah, it's
going to be difficult to manage. I do think that
there's there are differences from like the Red Bull or
(12:49):
City Football Group model in that maybe on the men's
side it's made to be a farm system versus on
the women's side it's maybe meant to be a sort
of monopoly more so than it advancement. So I think
there are differences. But yeah, it's a challenge. I know
it's not for everybody. It's not and not everybody's a
fan of it, you know. I think it's too early
to say that it's like the most amazing thing or
(13:10):
some evil thing. Either way, it's just we need to
see how it develops.
Speaker 2 (13:14):
Time will tell.
Speaker 1 (13:16):
NWSL in general has struggled with coach turnover. What do
you think the main reason is for the lack of
long tenured managers.
Speaker 3 (13:24):
Well, I mean a lot of things. I mean I
think there's a level of patience. There's a level of vetting, right.
I mean, I think if I think of some of
the most recent quick turnovers, which last year we had
several of them, you know, I think from the outside
most of them, I think those of us who you know,
are arguably less informed, at least on the sporting side,
(13:45):
were pretty skeptical of them for one reason or another,
and very quickly they you know, they didn't pan out. So,
you know, I think there's there's multiple layers of that, right.
I think you can look at what's the experience level
higher up the chain, in the in the front office,
and and what does that look like, who do they
bring in? You know, I think there's a level of
patients in a league where you know, we see it.
(14:07):
I mean, I'm thinking of San Diego going from shield
to disaster back to shield contender. This is just kind
of a yo yo league where things change drastically year
over year. Gotham obviously going from last championship a year
over year. So I think that, you know, it's it's
like it's tough to have that long term view. Very
few people have that patience level, and then you know,
(14:29):
there is kind of a yeah, I mean I think
that there's you have like a recycling of coaches along
with some real wild cards, right, which is where some
of those others come in. And I think it's just
kind of a little bit of an immature landscape in
that perspective.
Speaker 1 (14:46):
We got to take a quick break when we come
back more with Jeff Kasouf type. Over the break, we
got some news from the den expansion team. There'll be
the Denver Summit FC, and per your reporting, they're set
to soon announced Nick Pushing as the club's first head coach.
(15:07):
Tell us about what you know about him in the
style he's going to bring to the job.
Speaker 3 (15:11):
Yeah, so long time Manchester City, I guess I just
say City Football Group product between Manchester City Women, the
academy there, New York City FC MLS fans will be familiar.
So I think you know that in that regard brings
a ton of experience. Most recently was the interim with
man City in this spring here. So but you know
the bulk of that experience being I would say, in
(15:33):
a phase of the the WSL where things were a
lot different. It just wasn't necessarily this modern era. So
I think that'll be interesting. I think you can look
there at Denver and say, you know, you've got a
little bit of an American European one two punch, where
I would argue, at least logically, there's a little bit
more experience with the league and understanding there with GM
(15:55):
Kirk Johnson in charge, and you know, some of the
depending on how they stay that up some of the
you know, American influence and backdrop versus a Boston that's
gone all European as the other expansion team, which I
really like Felipa Patum from what I've talked to her about.
But you know, obviously that comes with the risk of
(16:16):
does this group kind of understand the inherently complicated and
ridiculous rules of the NWSL. So I think we'll have
contrasting expansion teams in that regard, But you know, I
think both are I'm excited to see both. I mean, Denver,
you know, to your question about Cushing the experiences there,
and then obviously there's going to be a pressure I
(16:37):
think to perform from the outset with sort of the
wild wild West of no draft. What's that roster going
to look like?
Speaker 1 (16:44):
A lot of questions I want to get into that,
but I first want to ask, what do you think
are the most ridiculous rules in the NWSL.
Speaker 3 (16:50):
Well, I think, I mean the cap and the intricacies
of the financial piece are still ones that exist, you know,
just having to manage that, you know, right down to
I think, like look at the announcement of the financial
possibilities for Boston and Denver. I mean I remember even
writing that was like for someone who's in it was
(17:11):
difficult to convey to the average fan because it's a
different pot of transfer funds which exist out of allocation money,
which both essentially exist out of the salary cap. And
you have a threshold where you could sell a player,
but then you buy a player. If you go over it,
you essentially have a luxury tax, which is you know,
the best way I could explain that to like an
(17:33):
MLB or NBA fan. So there's just there's no like,
we want this player, this is what they cost for
a salary, this is what the club wants for a transfer.
You're at times dipping into two to three pots of
money and trying to balance it without getting taxed. So
that's something that still exists and I think is difficult.
Speaker 1 (17:54):
Well, that's why we like people like you figuring it
out for us, because that is not my wheelhouse.
Speaker 2 (17:59):
You mentioned that draft.
Speaker 1 (18:00):
Denver and Boston are going to be the first teams
to try to acquire players and build a roster without
a draft. What do you see as the most attractive
draws for each of those teams?
Speaker 3 (18:09):
Well, Boston's going to be the city. I mean, I
think that's probably cliche, but they'll have that type of
ability to sell that to an international and probably plenty
of domestic players probably you know, and I say this respectfully,
I like Denver better than Boston, I think as far
as like where am I going to go? But that
probably Denver won't have that exactly equally. But Denver has
(18:29):
the project to sell. I mean, I get that. Boston,
you know, they're coming around on the stadium and the
training facility. Obviously I think it was you know, they've
got a lot to kind of shed off from the
rough start that they had between branding and stadium. But
Denver's going to be able to sell world class stadium
built for them, the open view to the peaks, and
(18:49):
then obviously the training facility that I think we've seen
more at least in terms of renderings and information from
Denver than we have of Boston's. But it does look
like it'll be a little bit more robust, just even
by way of it having the temporary stadium. So I
think that there's like a campus and a project that
can really be sold if you're Denver, and then if
you're Boston, you have that to a degree, but you
(19:11):
also just have kind of a worldly city that can
attract Europeans and frankly, even like geography, you know, from geography,
you know, we see this with scheduling of you of
US games, even like a European it's a shorter flight
to Boston than it is to Denver if they need
to hop back and forth. I mean, that's not like
an end all, be all factor, but it will be
one for players as they make decisions.
Speaker 1 (19:34):
You know, we've seen a little bit of expansion in
recent years. Based on what we've seen, is there any
glaring reason why an existing NWSL player or new player
might not want to join an expansion team from year one?
Speaker 2 (19:45):
There's a lot of.
Speaker 1 (19:46):
Cool things about being the first. Are there reasons that
they might say, oh wait a couple of years.
Speaker 3 (19:51):
Well, yeah, there are a lot of cool things. I mean,
I would say, depending where you are in your career,
if it's like championship now, then you're not going to
expansion team. I mean, respectfully, even to the ones that
have been competitive, I think that they're in for a
difficult task ahead. I mean, you don't have the draft,
which I'm not saying is necessarily like the only thing
(20:11):
that I mean, by the time we got to the
end of the draft era became a leveraging piece, which
teams leveraged pretty well. And now they don't have that.
And but that combined with look at like Kansas City,
look at Orlando, I think the bar of like what
is a championship team is so much higher now the
league is larger that you're kind of fighting to be
(20:32):
a mid table team, I would say from year one.
So if you're at a point in your career where
like it's winding down, I just need a ring. Now.
I don't think you're going to an expansion team right now.
Let them prove me wrong. Throw it on the poster
board material. But yeah, I think that that's probably not
for everybody in that sense.
Speaker 1 (20:52):
We've talked a lot about the Boston rollout, some of
the starts and stops and restarts.
Speaker 2 (20:56):
What have you made of the Denver rollout so far?
Speaker 3 (20:58):
I think it's been pretty smooth from a branding perspective.
I mean, you can't beat that stadium. It's it'll be
the second of its kind. And you know, I know
Boston's is kind of retrofitted in terms of build from
the ground, you know. From that perspective, I think the
branding has been on point. Whether they I did ask,
and I mean I don't think we'll ever get a
real answer whether they learned or not from what Boston did.
(21:20):
I think they did it polar opposite with fan input
and and a little bit more organic. So I think
the branding has been right, you know, having been to
Denver and Colorado now, I think it's like they've they've
gotten the local vibe, right, I think from just the
branding and everything. So I think it's been a pretty
good roll out thus far. That you know, that said,
(21:42):
there's very few people employed at the moment that we
know about obviously, so that'll be a big piece of it.
But yeah, I think what they've done so far it's
as good as you can ask for a really pretty
cool brand for a cool place to be.
Speaker 1 (21:54):
I love the Crest. I love the colors and the vibes.
I think the name's cool too. I was just in
Portland pretty recently hearing a lot about the joint facility
that the Thorns are building along with the Portland fire
of the WNBA. Do you know if there are any
regulations or there will be any monitoring from the leagues
about that facility being.
Speaker 3 (22:12):
Shared, like in terms of financials.
Speaker 1 (22:16):
Yeah, I don't know if there's any rules around that
collaboration being different than every other city.
Speaker 3 (22:24):
There shouldn't be in terms of I mean, the training
facility itself is spend what you want on it, make it,
you know, I think the league will be happy to
see it made as great as possible. You know. Monitoring,
I think is an ongoing thing. I mean we're almost
a year gone from I would say the what was
historically the biggest points the first points deduction and you know,
not quite related, but I think we haven't heard much
(22:47):
since then about what the league is or isn't monitoring.
Speaker 1 (22:49):
So and you're talking about the Angel City points deduction.
Speaker 3 (22:52):
Yeah, the Angel City, which is not necessarily related, but
just to your point of like, what are they doing
to monitor financials It's a good question because to your point,
even on the salaries, we don't hear about any of
it publicly, and I can tell you most people don't
want to talk about those things. So yeah, but in
terms of the training facility, I think the model is interesting.
I'm curious if we'll see more WNBA NWSL ownership crossover.
(23:15):
I know Kansas City wants that they've been public about it,
and yeah, but in terms of the facility, it should
be spend what you want to make it great, and yeah,
I think I don't think there should be any restrictions
on it.
Speaker 1 (23:26):
All Right, We're about to start the second half of
the NWSL season after this lengthy break. What are your
top three storylines that you're watching for in the second half.
Speaker 3 (23:34):
Well, obviously the shield. I mean, I think Kansas City
is in a position a bit like Orlando last year
to a degree to really just can they run away
with it? Can they do the double? I think that's probably,
you know, top of mind for them after last year.
You know, from an individual standpoint, I do think we
talked about Rodman earlier. I mean that jumps out. It's
(23:57):
transfer season, so we could say transfers at large, but
she will be the first, second, third, and one hundredth
sort of priority of importance and prominence for the league
as a face of the league for one that you know,
I think is in a point of transition where they
need one. And then you know, I think maybe if
you look a little bit farther down the table where
(24:20):
fourteen teams were going to sixteen, superpower is probably a
term I'm grown old of hearing already from the league,
but it's one they love to talk about, that parody
is the superpower, And you know, I think just I mean,
I know we can look at mathematically that parody has
been eroding to a degree. It looks different, you know,
(24:41):
all these things, but first to last is a different
world in this league now. So I think looking at
what are these bottom teams going to do? Chicago, I
think you and I have talked about. I know you've
you know, you've had some inside looks at and you know, Chicago, Utah.
What are these teams going to do to be competitive
and even if that means setting themselves up for next
(25:01):
year at this point, because there are some teams that
are clearly out of it for this season. So I
think we need to view that with the short and
long term of the league cannot become a tier of
three and everybody else.
Speaker 1 (25:14):
Yeah, we talk about that a lot in women's sports.
There's a lot of secret sharing between teams and front
offices because it is a rising tides lift all boat situation.
It doesn't work the same way as it can in
these long, centuries long or century long established men's leagues
where the top carries the bottom.
Speaker 2 (25:30):
You really need a healthy league.
Speaker 1 (25:33):
NWSL regular season viewership down about eight percent this year.
The most obvious reason is the absence of some big names.
Triple Espresso all Out Robin's been in and out with injuries,
Chicago Stars Mallory Swanson and the Portland Thorn Sophia Wilson
both pregnant, and then Rose Level has been out with
injury forgot them. Do you see any other reason for
the decline right now? And I do think they anticipated
to go back up in the second half as we
(25:54):
get closer to postseason runs.
Speaker 3 (25:55):
Yeah. I would add to that too. I mean the retirements.
I mean Megan Rapino a couple years now, but Alex
Morgan retiring, you know, Becky Sowerbrun, I mean Morgan above
all of them, I would say, you know, being the
sort of cross cultural draw that you know, could change
a TV number to a degree at least on a
big game. So I think those all kind of compounds.
(26:16):
So yeah, I think that's a big piece of it
is just this is a league that it's you know,
I think people look at it as like this negative thing.
It's not speaking ill of anybody in it. A generation
is retired, a newer generation is emerging. They're emerging in
a little bit of fits and starts to a degree,
whether that's injury or otherwise, and haven't necessarily yet established themselves.
(26:40):
I think we see in a Rodman, especially already from
a media perspective, will be, if not already is that superstar,
but just hasn't yet quite taken hold in the way
that fifteen years of Alex Morgan front and center does
and did. So I think all those things combined kind
of contribute to making it a little bit difficult to sell,
whether it's the league at large or just like a
(27:01):
big game, right, Like I mean Chicago.
Speaker 1 (27:04):
The storylines have been down a little. It feels like
something to cling to for the casual fan.
Speaker 3 (27:08):
Yeah, like a Chicago Washington, I mean as bad as
Chicago isn't has been. You could have sold as Swanson
versus Rodman that cuts through to a degree to somebody
who doesn't otherwise care. Instead, it was you know, Washington
at the rear the Stars.
Speaker 1 (27:22):
I mean, it's it's just not something you can say
color neutral stars.
Speaker 2 (27:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:27):
We paid a bit of attention to the Euros on
this show, not as much as the larger US audience did,
which was really cool to see how invested folks.
Speaker 2 (27:35):
Scott and what was going on over there.
Speaker 1 (27:36):
We really didn't pay mu attention at all to the
Copa America or the Women's Africa Cup of Nations.
Speaker 2 (27:41):
So do we miss anything?
Speaker 1 (27:42):
Is there anything that stands out to you as it
relates to the NWSL or even the future major international
tournaments involving the US women's national team based off of
what you saw at those tournaments.
Speaker 3 (27:52):
You know, I think from a Copa America standpoint, I mean,
you know, again some of the headlines of the actual
resources we saw Marta and Company calling those out. You know,
I think when you look at the juxtaposition of those
running simultaneously of like what's happening in Ecuador, what's happening
in Switzerland very different. You know, I do think even
like it makes me think of Conka Calf going from
(28:15):
I mean, I feel like they've gone backwards in terms
of like giving real competition. That now qualifying is going
to be one win and you're in in a mini
tournament versus some of these confederations that have month long
or roughly month long tournaments. But yeah, I think it's
you know, Europe is has been. I mean, I hate
(28:37):
the framing of it as like the world is catching up.
They caught up a while ago. I mean that's a
totally different time period. So you know, there are better
teams beyond just Spain and England. Now, there are teams
that can give any team to run for their money.
Portugal just got announced for a US opponent. Portugal was
three inches from sending the US home in the group
stage in the twenty twenty three World Cup, and I
never thought I would say that, quite frankly. So I
(29:00):
think that there's, yeah, there's just an increase in those
mid tier teams so to speak, that can beat better
teams on the day. And I think that, you know,
scheduling is difficult now. The US can't schedule these big opponents.
They just like it's almost impossible to bring Spain here
on a random friendly window. So I think those are
things that jump out just overall rising quality and you know,
(29:23):
wondering when the US gets like a real competitive game
because it's getting harder to do.
Speaker 1 (29:28):
Yeah, And I do think to your point about the
resources across some of those tournaments. We've seen some incredible
players coming from Africa to the NWSL, and they're oftentimes
coming from federations that give them basically no resources. So
what can it look like if they're actually supported in
their youth levels that as they're coming up before they
get to the NWSL, it could change everything.
Speaker 3 (29:48):
Yeah, I think some of it's scouting too, Like I mean,
we see this with you know, I think i'd have
to look at like we've seen multiple instances of the
NWSL where a team announces first player in league history
signed from you know, I think we had one even
from Italy, which was surprising to me. I had to
pull out the archives that we never had one. But
you know, it's just it's not relying on like the
(30:10):
same sort of tread paths where teams are improving scouting.
We've seen a huge pipeline from Brazil specifically, and not
just like you know, we all know who Marta is already,
but you know players that are are kind of emerging,
you know, from a Corinthian's, you know, from clubs that
are producing better players. So you know, I think it's
(30:31):
it's part scouting, it's obviously part resources. But you know,
you can make that argument across CONCA, CAF too. I mean,
I think it's you know, it's it's a global issue
still of kind of what are those resources? I mean
even in Europe, I mean Uruguay and in South America,
you know these are are I don't think we're done
with the stories by any by any stretch of like
(30:53):
players having to fight their federations for basic support. It's just,
you know, now it's the US kind of set that
bar among some other countries and now it's kind of
a top down to Okay, we didn't think we could
do this, but now we can fight for this.
Speaker 2 (31:07):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (31:08):
Last question, potentially toughest question, what do you think is
the biggest issue the NWSL will face in the next
five years.
Speaker 3 (31:17):
I would say, I mean we've talked about expansion on
this show. I mean, it does come top of mind
to me when we talk about a potential thirty team
league of what that looks like. You know, I know
people have said, where's the data on it? I do
worry about dilution of talent if that happens too fast.
(31:39):
I do worry what that looks like if you continue
to have that gap growing to forty points or whatever
it might be from first to last. So I think
that balance is going to be tough because like, there's
nothing wrong with that. We should encourage teams to be
the best in the world. And if Kansas City or Orlando,
Whoever's going to go do that, they should go do it,
and they shouldn't be restrained by a team that just
(32:01):
can't do it. But the way that that's going to
work if you've got Kansas City here, Chicago, Utah, whoever
down there and consistently so is to some degree they've
at least got to be really relevant locally, have some
deep inroads where even if they're terrible, people care about them.
Speaker 2 (32:19):
And there's no draft.
Speaker 1 (32:21):
So if you get to that kind of system where
you've got that many teams and no one wants to
go there, then you just have no real way to
fix the problem. Yeah, because you're not going to pick
up a superstar player unless they maybe are from there
and they decide they want to, you know, bring some
glory to their hometown club that's been struggling.
Speaker 3 (32:37):
Yeah, well, and it's on that management, that ownership group
to to fix that. I mean, I think, you know,
credit to Orlando for being a bit of a doormat
for that long turning it around and look at Haley
Carter coming in and being a big piece of that.
So it can be done. The right hires can be made,
but it leaves it in the hands of that club,
which isn't always a successful outcome. So yeah, I think
(33:00):
that's top of mind. I mean, there's plenty of things
to worry about, so to speak, from branding and otherwise,
but yeah, I think that comes to mind as it's
just a topic that's always front and center. They want
to be the NFL. They want to be the NFL. Well,
that obviously comes with a lot of catching.
Speaker 1 (33:15):
How long is the season, how many games are they playing?
Speaker 2 (33:18):
Is there enough talent?
Speaker 1 (33:19):
Do you just usurp the talent from all the other
professional leagues that are growing and building right now that
are trying to sort of be competitor, slash another option.
Do they all just go away and you take all
the talent? There's lots, there's lots there, and you always
have an answer for all of it. So thank you
so much for the time, Jeff. Always great talking to you.
Thanks Sarah, Thanks so much to Jeff for joining us.
Speaker 2 (33:40):
We got to take another break.
Speaker 1 (33:42):
When we return, brush out those mains and warm up
your roars.
Speaker 2 (33:53):
Welcome back, Slices.
Speaker 1 (33:55):
We love that you're listening, but we want you to
get in the game every day too, So here's our
good game play of the day. Stay up to date
with Jeff's reporting follow him on Blue Sky. We'll link
to his account in our show notes. We always love
to hear from you, so hit us up on email
Good game at Wondermedia network dot com or leave us
a voicemail at eight seven two two four fifty seventy
and don't forget to subscribe.
Speaker 2 (34:14):
Rate and review, y'all. It's easy.
Speaker 1 (34:16):
Watch meish not reminding me to be loud and obnoxious
about the start of Leo's season. Rating zero out of
zero Leo points. Are you even really a Leo at
this point? Mesh review, We're eight days into Leo season,
and I haven't even mentioned it once on this show.
Meish gen Z. Folks like you are supposed to be
(34:36):
reminding me about this stuff, yepin, about your Sun's signs
and your rising signs and mercuries and renaissance or whatever else.
You've let me down. You've let yourself down, and you've
let all other Leos down. I command you to make
up for your transgressions by stepping into several spotlights this
week and assuming main character energy for every interaction from
(34:58):
your social feeds to your grocery shopping trips. Oh and
no good Leo shines alone, So send a little light
the way of your friends too. Now it's your turn. Y'all,
rate and review, Thanks for listening. See you tomorrow for
my conversation with two time Olympian and New York Times
bestselling author Kara Goucher. Good Game, Jeff, Good Game, Leo's You,
Sexy Mothers, HW, everyone else, Just.
Speaker 2 (35:21):
For now, it's not personal.
Speaker 1 (35:26):
Good Game with Sarah Spain is an iHeart women's sports
production in partnership with Deep Blue Sports and Entertainment. You
can find us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or
wherever you get Your Podcasts. Production by Wonder Media Network.
Our producers are Alex Azzie and Misha Jones. Our executive
producers are Christina Everett, Jesse Katz, Jenny Kaplan and Emily Rutterer.
(35:47):
Our editors are Emily Rutter, Britney Martinez, Grace Lynch and
Gianna Palmer.
Speaker 2 (35:51):
Our associate producer is Lucy Jones.
Speaker 1 (35:54):
Production assistance from Avery Loftis and I'm Your Host Sarah
Spain
Welcome to Good Game with Sarah Spain, where we are
never not going to trip over the work, where we
are never going to not trip over the words Rivalry Week, Rivalry,
the Rural juror, shout out thirty Rock. It's Wednesday, July thirtieth,
and on today's show, we'll be skipping the needs to
(00:20):
know and jumping straight into my conversation with ESPN soccer
reporter and friend of the show Jeff Cassou. He returns
to the show to talk about me officials, big money
move to the Seattle Rain, his thoughts on Denver Summit
FC's rollout, and the top storylines he's keeping an eye
on in the second half of the NWSL season and beyond.
It's all coming up right after this, joining us now
(00:50):
for a return visit to the show. He's been covering
soccer with an emphasis on advancing the women's game since
two thousand and eight. In two thousand and nine, he
launched The Equalizer, the leading website dedicated to exclusively to
comprehensive women's soccer coverage in North America, before joining ESPN
to become the outlet's lead NWSL and US Women's National
team reporter. He's happier than anyone that the NWSL finally
(01:11):
released a season schedule footprint with months to spare.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
It's Jeff casup Hi, Jeff.
Speaker 3 (01:16):
You know me, Well, Sarah, this is like I mean,
it's amazing news that we can plan for next year.
This summer truly unprecedented.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
Yeah, I'm going to have to just fold up my
wear's the schedule meg shirt and never wear it again.
Speaker 3 (01:30):
You know.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
Well, thanks for coming back to the show.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
How was the NWSL hiatus for you, because I know
a couple break in news moments sort of interrupted your piece.
Speaker 3 (01:38):
Yeah, I think I had one as it ever goes
that while I was trying to get away, I'm going
to think, you know, as the cycle of covering this
sport goes. I mean obviously there were Euros and everything,
but it's at least from a US perspective, more of
a down summer in the cycle. So yeah, attempted to
do a little bit more family stuff than I would
in like a World Cup.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
Year, And you almost made it until the me official
news hit and we found out she was leaving Chelsea
and signing with Seattle Rain through twenty twenty nine. Actually,
I got to see her in the Thorns Rain friendly
last Saturday. Can you tell us more about why you
think that move happened now and talk about what she
adds to this Seattle team.
Speaker 3 (02:17):
Yeah, I think one hundred percent that her eyes are
on the twenty twenty seven World Cup. I mean, you
look at Chelsea and you know, I think saying this
obviously knowing that and acknowledging that she's a high quality,
international caliber forward is just that is you know, one
of the elite club teams in the world. It's it's stacked.
Obviously some uncertainty waiting to see if Sam Kirr comes back,
but you know, it's it's a place where she not
(02:40):
necessarily guaranteed to be the everyday starter, I think, and
I think at this phase where she's trying to maybe
be the everyday starter for the US, she needs that
in the club environment. And you know, obviously I think
I mean I reported on some of the financials. That's
a big piece of this. I think, as you know
what we believe to be the highest paid aggregate contract
so far in league history, but also you know, the
(03:03):
everyday experience of being the number nine for a club
where that might not have been the case, I'm assuming
she read that writing on the wall a little bit
at Chelsea and you know, needs that With this year
and a half or so build up into the twenty
twenty seven World Cup, I.
Speaker 1 (03:17):
Think some folks might be surprised to hear she's the
highest paid player ever in the NWSL based on the
accounting that was done unofficially. What is she capable of
when healthy and why was the price so high?
Speaker 3 (03:28):
Well, I think some of the economics are really a
state of the ongoing evolution. I mean, this is, you know,
the Naomi Garma transfer to a degree in the winter,
and that's the biggest ever, and then that's immediately you know,
captain the summer. So I think that's just the state
that we're in where things are changing so rapidly that
we're in an environment where there's a record upon a
record relatively every transfer season.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
It's like NFL quarterbacks at this point.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
Yeah yeah, every time a really good one signs, the
number goes up.
Speaker 3 (03:56):
Yeah, exactly. And I don't know when that stops, exactly,
because obviously the nwsls operate in their cap world, which
is supposed to be future proof. Maybe it is, maybe
it isn't but I think that informs the economics a
little bit, like at a at a large scale. And
then forficial specifically, yeah, I mean I think, you know,
rising top American forward. You know, I think there's probably
(04:18):
there's only so many players available at a given time,
right Seattle is a team that is in the middle
of a rebuild, has a chance to kind of get
a younger franchise player here, and you know, I think
it's an opportunity for them to make a move for
the long term. So I think there's a lot of
sort of outside factors. And then obviously for her, yeah,
I think she's proven in the time that we've seen her,
(04:39):
which has been a little bit limited so far, that
that she's a very good number nine, can play as
a back to goal forward and can score goals. She's
a poacher in front of net, and now she'll look
to prove that in the n OFBSL quickly.
Speaker 1 (04:54):
Is it necessary to be local to the NWSL in
terms of being seen for the US women's national team
in the same way anymore, or is it just as
likely if you're playing in the European League and crushing
it that you're going to get the same opportunity.
Speaker 3 (05:06):
Yeah, I don't think it's as essential these days, especially
with maas in charge and global scouting, global availability of games.
I think I think it's unique to every individual, but
I think the days of you have to be here
are probably gone.
Speaker 1 (05:20):
You mentioned Naomi Germa the first million dollar transfer in
women's soccer, and then this summer we saw the first
million euro transfer from Arsenal for Liverpool's Olivia Smith. Can
the NWSL keep up with that kind of spending well
restrained by a salary cap or will they start to
fall behind and getting those players if they don't change
the system.
Speaker 3 (05:37):
Yeah, I think the system's going to need ongoing evolution.
So I think I would guess the short answer of
like as it's written now, I'm going to say no,
and that's you know, they've tried to future proof it.
The cap goes up every year. There is a caveat
there for if they're profitable with the media rights, and
you know that can increase some more. But I think
(05:58):
they're going to have to come up with a system.
We see it in MLS right. I mean they got
rid of allocation money, but now expansion teams have come
in without a draft and suddenly there's allocation money again, right,
So I think we're in this space, you know, similar
to I said of the market evolving NonStop. I think
the NWSL is in a place where they're going to
be evaluating these rules on an annual basis, and the
(06:21):
cap itself is written in stone. But we're probably looking
at a scenario where whether it's allocation money or some
kind of other sort of funny money, like, they're going
to have to come up with ways to keep up.
And you know, there's not many people, like very few
teams could spend a million on a transfer right now.
I mean San Diego's got some money in the bank
from the Germa outgoing transfer, but like that's a very
(06:43):
difficult prospect. So as far as the World Elite Stars,
which obviously Trini Rodman is probably the one we're all
watching this summer and going into winter, that is, that's
going to be a difficult one for all these teams.
Speaker 1 (06:55):
You mentioned Trinity Rodman, she's back to training for the Spirit.
What have you heard about her health and expectation for
her in the second half.
Speaker 3 (07:01):
Yeah, I mean I think, look, health is going to
be an ongoing situation. I mean, I think she said
to herself that she doesn't know for back will ever
be one hundred percent, And I think that's that's tough
to hear for a relatively young player. And hopefully whatever
club in the you know, short and long term future
she's with can manage that alongside the US, And you know,
(07:23):
I think that's going to be something for the US
to to monitor and maybe worry about a little bit,
because it's it's you know, I mean to come back
for one US game, to come back for a few
games in the NWSL and then be back on the
sideline is an issue for her, for the US, for
the SPIRIT, and then obviously the big question that we're
looking at, I think at large from AFAR is just
(07:43):
what happens next. I mean, we're into July first, is
coming gone, so she's free to talk with anybody in
the world. I'm sure that has logically begun to some degree,
and I think that, you know, she is very much
emerging as the superstar of this league. So I think
this is a spirit question and problem potentially, but it's
also one for the league as well.
Speaker 1 (08:04):
Yeah, and she has said on the record, I anticipate
I'm going to just play in Europe at sometime. It's
just a matter of when it's experience I want to have,
you know, as we're paying attention to the WNBA and
players trying to renegotiate a CBA and get a higher
percentage of revenue, and the conversation around pay is such
a big one. In the NWSL. The players now have
(08:26):
access to an internal database that details player salaries, but
we don't see them and know most of them publicly.
Speaker 2 (08:34):
This was made to help with.
Speaker 1 (08:36):
Salary negotiations, but it means that folks like you are
trying to source that type of information, you don't have
it actually laid out for you. Do you think it
would help increase player salaries and be beneficial for the
players if there was more transparency and if there could
be a public fight around their worth.
Speaker 3 (08:54):
Well, look, selfishly, I'd love to see it. It is
a I would say, very sort of limited dialogue that
is existed internally between some of us in media and
leadership at a at a league level. I don't foresee
it happening anytime soon, frankly, and yeah, I think it
would help on this end of the job. Would it
help ultimately the player and the you know, I guess
(09:17):
from their perspective, I mean, you know, they could they
already see it internally, so they know, right, So that
means the agents know, the teams know. You know, I
do think that there is I will always argue for
these things that there is a level of benefit to
public information when it comes to you know, salaries, contract
terms at minimum, to know when people are expiring. So yes,
(09:40):
I do think there's a level of benefit. The fact
that exists internally, I think actually makes it probably a
harder sell to make it public because they can negotiate
like that already and know each other's salaries. So yeah,
but I do think from a fan perspective it helps.
There are a lot of benefits, and we're no longer
in the days where like like I think we all
are are humans. The very few of us who have
(10:01):
done this long enough to remember those days, like the
six thousand dollars minimum contract in twenty thirteen, Does anybody
need that public? Probably not, But you know, we're in
a day where that has obviously changed. It's not we're
not talking about million dollar contracts across the board. But
you know, I think that the contracts are respectable now.
People are increasingly wanting to talk about the financials, especially
(10:22):
when they're records, of course, and I think that we
should be headed there. I don't think it's imminent though.
Speaker 1 (10:27):
As we talk about players going to Europe and back,
we also see coaches doing that, including the transfer of
Spirit head coach Jonathan Heraldez to Michelle Kang's other team,
Oh el Leon. So what do you make of Michelle
Kang's multi club ownership. How can she run the Spirit
and run another women's pro team without there being a
conflict of interest there?
Speaker 3 (10:48):
Yeah, I mean, I think that's that's ultimately the question, right,
And I don't think you know, I would say both
things true in that scenario. Is I do think that
was an individual case that was not necessarily one person
moving the chess pieces as they pleased. But I also
think it's it's obviously a very tough pr hit when
you know, the messaging is that we're not going to
(11:09):
move pay players, at least from place to place, and
you know, arguably the one of the best club coaches
in the world is moving from one side to the
other and within the organization. So I think it's a
huge it's a potentially big optics problem when when these
types of things happen, I don't think it's the last
time it'll happen, whether it's player or coach. I mean
(11:29):
it's not the only one either, right. You look at
the flip side. Kansas City just started this with HP
Ker in Denmark and they've openly said we are going
to do it, and they've already had a handful of
players move over there.
Speaker 1 (11:42):
So yeah, for those who don't know the current owners,
the owners of the current who are also the current
owners of the current have purchased another team and are
now making some player moves between the teams, which we've
of course seen partnerships between teams before abroad and the NWSL,
but now having shared ownership makes it a little stickier, right, Yeah.
Speaker 3 (12:05):
But I mean they've been pretty open about it, whereas
like Michelle Kang has said, very much best team in
each country, we're not going to move parts around. So yeah,
I think that's difficult, and it's particularly difficult when you
talk about historically the best club in the world in
Lyon and then one of the best teams right now
or you know, fighting to be so inarguably the best
(12:26):
league in the world who they are. There's no obvious
front and center. And then London City is now in
the top flight. I'm sure there's going to be a
push there financially and otherwise to make that team competitive
and get to Europe. So I think it's a difficult task,
if nothing else from an optics perspective, but yeah, it's
going to be difficult to manage. I do think that
there's there are differences from like the Red Bull or
(12:49):
City Football Group model in that maybe on the men's
side it's made to be a farm system versus on
the women's side it's maybe meant to be a sort
of monopoly more so than it advancement. So I think
there are differences. But yeah, it's a challenge. I know
it's not for everybody. It's not and not everybody's a
fan of it, you know. I think it's too early
to say that it's like the most amazing thing or
(13:10):
some evil thing. Either way, it's just we need to
see how it develops.
Speaker 2 (13:14):
Time will tell.
Speaker 1 (13:16):
NWSL in general has struggled with coach turnover. What do
you think the main reason is for the lack of
long tenured managers.
Speaker 3 (13:24):
Well, I mean a lot of things. I mean I
think there's a level of patience. There's a level of vetting, right.
I mean, I think if I think of some of
the most recent quick turnovers, which last year we had
several of them, you know, I think from the outside
most of them, I think those of us who you know,
are arguably less informed, at least on the sporting side,
(13:45):
were pretty skeptical of them for one reason or another,
and very quickly they you know, they didn't pan out. So,
you know, I think there's there's multiple layers of that, right.
I think you can look at what's the experience level
higher up the chain, in the in the front office,
and and what does that look like, who do they
bring in? You know, I think there's a level of
patients in a league where you know, we see it.
(14:07):
I mean, I'm thinking of San Diego going from shield
to disaster back to shield contender. This is just kind
of a yo yo league where things change drastically year
over year. Gotham obviously going from last championship a year
over year. So I think that, you know, it's it's
like it's tough to have that long term view. Very
few people have that patience level, and then you know,
(14:29):
there is kind of a yeah, I mean I think
that there's you have like a recycling of coaches along
with some real wild cards, right, which is where some
of those others come in. And I think it's just
kind of a little bit of an immature landscape in
that perspective.
Speaker 1 (14:46):
We got to take a quick break when we come
back more with Jeff Kasouf type. Over the break, we
got some news from the den expansion team. There'll be
the Denver Summit FC, and per your reporting, they're set
to soon announced Nick Pushing as the club's first head coach.
(15:07):
Tell us about what you know about him in the
style he's going to bring to the job.
Speaker 3 (15:11):
Yeah, so long time Manchester City, I guess I just
say City Football Group product between Manchester City Women, the
academy there, New York City FC MLS fans will be familiar.
So I think you know that in that regard brings
a ton of experience. Most recently was the interim with
man City in this spring here. So but you know
the bulk of that experience being I would say, in
(15:33):
a phase of the the WSL where things were a
lot different. It just wasn't necessarily this modern era. So
I think that'll be interesting. I think you can look
there at Denver and say, you know, you've got a
little bit of an American European one two punch, where
I would argue, at least logically, there's a little bit
more experience with the league and understanding there with GM
(15:55):
Kirk Johnson in charge, and you know, some of the
depending on how they stay that up some of the
you know, American influence and backdrop versus a Boston that's
gone all European as the other expansion team, which I
really like Felipa Patum from what I've talked to her about.
But you know, obviously that comes with the risk of
(16:16):
does this group kind of understand the inherently complicated and
ridiculous rules of the NWSL. So I think we'll have
contrasting expansion teams in that regard, But you know, I
think both are I'm excited to see both. I mean, Denver,
you know, to your question about Cushing the experiences there,
and then obviously there's going to be a pressure I
(16:37):
think to perform from the outset with sort of the
wild wild West of no draft. What's that roster going
to look like?
Speaker 1 (16:44):
A lot of questions I want to get into that,
but I first want to ask, what do you think
are the most ridiculous rules in the NWSL.
Speaker 3 (16:50):
Well, I think, I mean the cap and the intricacies
of the financial piece are still ones that exist, you know,
just having to manage that, you know, right down to
I think, like look at the announcement of the financial
possibilities for Boston and Denver. I mean I remember even
writing that was like for someone who's in it was
(17:11):
difficult to convey to the average fan because it's a
different pot of transfer funds which exist out of allocation money,
which both essentially exist out of the salary cap. And
you have a threshold where you could sell a player,
but then you buy a player. If you go over it,
you essentially have a luxury tax, which is you know,
the best way I could explain that to like an
(17:33):
MLB or NBA fan. So there's just there's no like,
we want this player, this is what they cost for
a salary, this is what the club wants for a transfer.
You're at times dipping into two to three pots of
money and trying to balance it without getting taxed. So
that's something that still exists and I think is difficult.
Speaker 1 (17:54):
Well, that's why we like people like you figuring it
out for us, because that is not my wheelhouse.
Speaker 2 (17:59):
You mentioned that draft.
Speaker 1 (18:00):
Denver and Boston are going to be the first teams
to try to acquire players and build a roster without
a draft. What do you see as the most attractive
draws for each of those teams?
Speaker 3 (18:09):
Well, Boston's going to be the city. I mean, I
think that's probably cliche, but they'll have that type of
ability to sell that to an international and probably plenty
of domestic players probably you know, and I say this respectfully,
I like Denver better than Boston, I think as far
as like where am I going to go? But that
probably Denver won't have that exactly equally. But Denver has
(18:29):
the project to sell. I mean, I get that. Boston,
you know, they're coming around on the stadium and the
training facility. Obviously I think it was you know, they've
got a lot to kind of shed off from the
rough start that they had between branding and stadium. But
Denver's going to be able to sell world class stadium
built for them, the open view to the peaks, and
(18:49):
then obviously the training facility that I think we've seen
more at least in terms of renderings and information from
Denver than we have of Boston's. But it does look
like it'll be a little bit more robust, just even
by way of it having the temporary stadium. So I
think that there's like a campus and a project that
can really be sold if you're Denver, and then if
you're Boston, you have that to a degree, but you
(19:11):
also just have kind of a worldly city that can
attract Europeans and frankly, even like geography, you know, from geography,
you know, we see this with scheduling of you of
US games, even like a European it's a shorter flight
to Boston than it is to Denver if they need
to hop back and forth. I mean, that's not like
an end all, be all factor, but it will be
one for players as they make decisions.
Speaker 1 (19:34):
You know, we've seen a little bit of expansion in
recent years. Based on what we've seen, is there any
glaring reason why an existing NWSL player or new player
might not want to join an expansion team from year one?
Speaker 2 (19:45):
There's a lot of.
Speaker 1 (19:46):
Cool things about being the first. Are there reasons that
they might say, oh wait a couple of years.
Speaker 3 (19:51):
Well, yeah, there are a lot of cool things. I mean,
I would say, depending where you are in your career,
if it's like championship now, then you're not going to
expansion team. I mean, respectfully, even to the ones that
have been competitive, I think that they're in for a
difficult task ahead. I mean, you don't have the draft,
which I'm not saying is necessarily like the only thing
(20:11):
that I mean, by the time we got to the
end of the draft era became a leveraging piece, which
teams leveraged pretty well. And now they don't have that.
And but that combined with look at like Kansas City,
look at Orlando, I think the bar of like what
is a championship team is so much higher now the
league is larger that you're kind of fighting to be
(20:32):
a mid table team, I would say from year one.
So if you're at a point in your career where
like it's winding down, I just need a ring. Now.
I don't think you're going to an expansion team right now.
Let them prove me wrong. Throw it on the poster
board material. But yeah, I think that that's probably not
for everybody in that sense.
Speaker 1 (20:52):
We've talked a lot about the Boston rollout, some of
the starts and stops and restarts.
Speaker 2 (20:56):
What have you made of the Denver rollout so far?
Speaker 3 (20:58):
I think it's been pretty smooth from a branding perspective.
I mean, you can't beat that stadium. It's it'll be
the second of its kind. And you know, I know
Boston's is kind of retrofitted in terms of build from
the ground, you know. From that perspective, I think the
branding has been on point. Whether they I did ask,
and I mean I don't think we'll ever get a
real answer whether they learned or not from what Boston did.
(21:20):
I think they did it polar opposite with fan input
and and a little bit more organic. So I think
the branding has been right, you know, having been to
Denver and Colorado now, I think it's like they've they've
gotten the local vibe, right, I think from just the
branding and everything. So I think it's been a pretty
good roll out thus far. That you know, that said,
(21:42):
there's very few people employed at the moment that we
know about obviously, so that'll be a big piece of it.
But yeah, I think what they've done so far it's
as good as you can ask for a really pretty
cool brand for a cool place to be.
Speaker 1 (21:54):
I love the Crest. I love the colors and the vibes.
I think the name's cool too. I was just in
Portland pretty recently hearing a lot about the joint facility
that the Thorns are building along with the Portland fire
of the WNBA. Do you know if there are any
regulations or there will be any monitoring from the leagues
about that facility being.
Speaker 3 (22:12):
Shared, like in terms of financials.
Speaker 1 (22:16):
Yeah, I don't know if there's any rules around that
collaboration being different than every other city.
Speaker 3 (22:24):
There shouldn't be in terms of I mean, the training
facility itself is spend what you want on it, make it,
you know, I think the league will be happy to
see it made as great as possible. You know. Monitoring,
I think is an ongoing thing. I mean we're almost
a year gone from I would say the what was
historically the biggest points the first points deduction and you know,
not quite related, but I think we haven't heard much
(22:47):
since then about what the league is or isn't monitoring.
Speaker 1 (22:49):
So and you're talking about the Angel City points deduction.
Speaker 3 (22:52):
Yeah, the Angel City, which is not necessarily related, but
just to your point of like, what are they doing
to monitor financials It's a good question because to your point,
even on the salaries, we don't hear about any of
it publicly, and I can tell you most people don't
want to talk about those things. So yeah, but in
terms of the training facility, I think the model is interesting.
I'm curious if we'll see more WNBA NWSL ownership crossover.
(23:15):
I know Kansas City wants that they've been public about it,
and yeah, but in terms of the facility, it should
be spend what you want to make it great, and yeah,
I think I don't think there should be any restrictions
on it.
Speaker 1 (23:26):
All Right, We're about to start the second half of
the NWSL season after this lengthy break. What are your
top three storylines that you're watching for in the second half.
Speaker 3 (23:34):
Well, obviously the shield. I mean, I think Kansas City
is in a position a bit like Orlando last year
to a degree to really just can they run away
with it? Can they do the double? I think that's probably,
you know, top of mind for them after last year.
You know, from an individual standpoint, I do think we
talked about Rodman earlier. I mean that jumps out. It's
(23:57):
transfer season, so we could say transfers at large, but
she will be the first, second, third, and one hundredth
sort of priority of importance and prominence for the league
as a face of the league for one that you know,
I think is in a point of transition where they
need one. And then you know, I think maybe if
you look a little bit farther down the table where
(24:20):
fourteen teams were going to sixteen, superpower is probably a
term I'm grown old of hearing already from the league,
but it's one they love to talk about, that parody
is the superpower, And you know, I think just I mean,
I know we can look at mathematically that parody has
been eroding to a degree. It looks different, you know,
(24:41):
all these things, but first to last is a different
world in this league now. So I think looking at
what are these bottom teams going to do? Chicago, I
think you and I have talked about. I know you've
you know, you've had some inside looks at and you know, Chicago, Utah.
What are these teams going to do to be competitive
and even if that means setting themselves up for next
(25:01):
year at this point, because there are some teams that
are clearly out of it for this season. So I
think we need to view that with the short and
long term of the league cannot become a tier of
three and everybody else.
Speaker 1 (25:14):
Yeah, we talk about that a lot in women's sports.
There's a lot of secret sharing between teams and front
offices because it is a rising tides lift all boat situation.
It doesn't work the same way as it can in
these long, centuries long or century long established men's leagues
where the top carries the bottom.
Speaker 2 (25:30):
You really need a healthy league.
Speaker 1 (25:33):
NWSL regular season viewership down about eight percent this year.
The most obvious reason is the absence of some big names.
Triple Espresso all Out Robin's been in and out with injuries,
Chicago Stars Mallory Swanson and the Portland Thorn Sophia Wilson
both pregnant, and then Rose Level has been out with
injury forgot them. Do you see any other reason for
the decline right now? And I do think they anticipated
to go back up in the second half as we
(25:54):
get closer to postseason runs.
Speaker 3 (25:55):
Yeah. I would add to that too. I mean the retirements.
I mean Megan Rapino a couple years now, but Alex
Morgan retiring, you know, Becky Sowerbrun, I mean Morgan above
all of them, I would say, you know, being the
sort of cross cultural draw that you know, could change
a TV number to a degree at least on a
big game. So I think those all kind of compounds.
(26:16):
So yeah, I think that's a big piece of it
is just this is a league that it's you know,
I think people look at it as like this negative thing.
It's not speaking ill of anybody in it. A generation
is retired, a newer generation is emerging. They're emerging in
a little bit of fits and starts to a degree,
whether that's injury or otherwise, and haven't necessarily yet established themselves.
(26:40):
I think we see in a Rodman, especially already from
a media perspective, will be, if not already is that superstar,
but just hasn't yet quite taken hold in the way
that fifteen years of Alex Morgan front and center does
and did. So I think all those things combined kind
of contribute to making it a little bit difficult to sell,
whether it's the league at large or just like a
(27:01):
big game, right, Like I mean Chicago.
Speaker 1 (27:04):
The storylines have been down a little. It feels like
something to cling to for the casual fan.
Speaker 3 (27:08):
Yeah, like a Chicago Washington, I mean as bad as
Chicago isn't has been. You could have sold as Swanson
versus Rodman that cuts through to a degree to somebody
who doesn't otherwise care. Instead, it was you know, Washington
at the rear the Stars.
Speaker 1 (27:22):
I mean, it's it's just not something you can say
color neutral stars.
Speaker 2 (27:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:27):
We paid a bit of attention to the Euros on
this show, not as much as the larger US audience did,
which was really cool to see how invested folks.
Speaker 2 (27:35):
Scott and what was going on over there.
Speaker 1 (27:36):
We really didn't pay mu attention at all to the
Copa America or the Women's Africa Cup of Nations.
Speaker 2 (27:41):
So do we miss anything?
Speaker 1 (27:42):
Is there anything that stands out to you as it
relates to the NWSL or even the future major international
tournaments involving the US women's national team based off of
what you saw at those tournaments.
Speaker 3 (27:52):
You know, I think from a Copa America standpoint, I mean,
you know, again some of the headlines of the actual
resources we saw Marta and Company calling those out. You know,
I think when you look at the juxtaposition of those
running simultaneously of like what's happening in Ecuador, what's happening
in Switzerland very different. You know, I do think even
like it makes me think of Conka Calf going from
(28:15):
I mean, I feel like they've gone backwards in terms
of like giving real competition. That now qualifying is going
to be one win and you're in in a mini
tournament versus some of these confederations that have month long
or roughly month long tournaments. But yeah, I think it's
you know, Europe is has been. I mean, I hate
(28:37):
the framing of it as like the world is catching up.
They caught up a while ago. I mean that's a
totally different time period. So you know, there are better
teams beyond just Spain and England. Now, there are teams
that can give any team to run for their money.
Portugal just got announced for a US opponent. Portugal was
three inches from sending the US home in the group
stage in the twenty twenty three World Cup, and I
never thought I would say that, quite frankly. So I
(29:00):
think that there's, yeah, there's just an increase in those
mid tier teams so to speak, that can beat better
teams on the day. And I think that, you know,
scheduling is difficult now. The US can't schedule these big opponents.
They just like it's almost impossible to bring Spain here
on a random friendly window. So I think those are
things that jump out just overall rising quality and you know,
(29:23):
wondering when the US gets like a real competitive game
because it's getting harder to do.
Speaker 1 (29:28):
Yeah, And I do think to your point about the
resources across some of those tournaments. We've seen some incredible
players coming from Africa to the NWSL, and they're oftentimes
coming from federations that give them basically no resources. So
what can it look like if they're actually supported in
their youth levels that as they're coming up before they
get to the NWSL, it could change everything.
Speaker 3 (29:48):
Yeah, I think some of it's scouting too, Like I mean,
we see this with you know, I think i'd have
to look at like we've seen multiple instances of the
NWSL where a team announces first player in league history
signed from you know, I think we had one even
from Italy, which was surprising to me. I had to
pull out the archives that we never had one. But
you know, it's just it's not relying on like the
(30:10):
same sort of tread paths where teams are improving scouting.
We've seen a huge pipeline from Brazil specifically, and not
just like you know, we all know who Marta is already,
but you know players that are are kind of emerging,
you know, from a Corinthian's, you know, from clubs that
are producing better players. So you know, I think it's
(30:31):
it's part scouting, it's obviously part resources. But you know,
you can make that argument across CONCA, CAF too. I mean,
I think it's you know, it's it's a global issue
still of kind of what are those resources? I mean
even in Europe, I mean Uruguay and in South America,
you know these are are I don't think we're done
with the stories by any by any stretch of like
(30:53):
players having to fight their federations for basic support. It's just,
you know, now it's the US kind of set that
bar among some other countries and now it's kind of
a top down to Okay, we didn't think we could
do this, but now we can fight for this.
Speaker 2 (31:07):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (31:08):
Last question, potentially toughest question, what do you think is
the biggest issue the NWSL will face in the next
five years.
Speaker 3 (31:17):
I would say, I mean we've talked about expansion on
this show. I mean, it does come top of mind
to me when we talk about a potential thirty team
league of what that looks like. You know, I know
people have said, where's the data on it? I do
worry about dilution of talent if that happens too fast.
(31:39):
I do worry what that looks like if you continue
to have that gap growing to forty points or whatever
it might be from first to last. So I think
that balance is going to be tough because like, there's
nothing wrong with that. We should encourage teams to be
the best in the world. And if Kansas City or Orlando,
Whoever's going to go do that, they should go do it,
and they shouldn't be restrained by a team that just
(32:01):
can't do it. But the way that that's going to
work if you've got Kansas City here, Chicago, Utah, whoever
down there and consistently so is to some degree they've
at least got to be really relevant locally, have some
deep inroads where even if they're terrible, people care about them.
Speaker 2 (32:19):
And there's no draft.
Speaker 1 (32:21):
So if you get to that kind of system where
you've got that many teams and no one wants to
go there, then you just have no real way to
fix the problem. Yeah, because you're not going to pick
up a superstar player unless they maybe are from there
and they decide they want to, you know, bring some
glory to their hometown club that's been struggling.
Speaker 3 (32:37):
Yeah, well, and it's on that management, that ownership group
to to fix that. I mean, I think, you know,
credit to Orlando for being a bit of a doormat
for that long turning it around and look at Haley
Carter coming in and being a big piece of that.
So it can be done. The right hires can be made,
but it leaves it in the hands of that club,
which isn't always a successful outcome. So yeah, I think
(33:00):
that's top of mind. I mean, there's plenty of things
to worry about, so to speak, from branding and otherwise,
but yeah, I think that comes to mind as it's
just a topic that's always front and center. They want
to be the NFL. They want to be the NFL. Well,
that obviously comes with a lot of catching.
Speaker 1 (33:15):
How long is the season, how many games are they playing?
Speaker 2 (33:18):
Is there enough talent?
Speaker 1 (33:19):
Do you just usurp the talent from all the other
professional leagues that are growing and building right now that
are trying to sort of be competitor, slash another option.
Do they all just go away and you take all
the talent? There's lots, there's lots there, and you always
have an answer for all of it. So thank you
so much for the time, Jeff. Always great talking to you.
Thanks Sarah, Thanks so much to Jeff for joining us.
Speaker 2 (33:40):
We got to take another break.
Speaker 1 (33:42):
When we return, brush out those mains and warm up
your roars.
Speaker 2 (33:53):
Welcome back, Slices.
Speaker 1 (33:55):
We love that you're listening, but we want you to
get in the game every day too, So here's our
good game play of the day. Stay up to date
with Jeff's reporting follow him on Blue Sky. We'll link
to his account in our show notes. We always love
to hear from you, so hit us up on email
Good game at Wondermedia network dot com or leave us
a voicemail at eight seven two two four fifty seventy
and don't forget to subscribe.
Speaker 2 (34:14):
Rate and review, y'all. It's easy.
Speaker 1 (34:16):
Watch meish not reminding me to be loud and obnoxious
about the start of Leo's season. Rating zero out of
zero Leo points. Are you even really a Leo at
this point? Mesh review, We're eight days into Leo season,
and I haven't even mentioned it once on this show.
Meish gen Z. Folks like you are supposed to be
(34:36):
reminding me about this stuff, yepin, about your Sun's signs
and your rising signs and mercuries and renaissance or whatever else.
You've let me down. You've let yourself down, and you've
let all other Leos down. I command you to make
up for your transgressions by stepping into several spotlights this
week and assuming main character energy for every interaction from
(34:58):
your social feeds to your grocery shopping trips. Oh and
no good Leo shines alone, So send a little light
the way of your friends too. Now it's your turn. Y'all,
rate and review, Thanks for listening. See you tomorrow for
my conversation with two time Olympian and New York Times
bestselling author Kara Goucher. Good Game, Jeff, Good Game, Leo's You,
Sexy Mothers, HW, everyone else, Just.
Speaker 2 (35:21):
For now, it's not personal.
Speaker 1 (35:26):
Good Game with Sarah Spain is an iHeart women's sports
production in partnership with Deep Blue Sports and Entertainment. You
can find us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or
wherever you get Your Podcasts. Production by Wonder Media Network.
Our producers are Alex Azzie and Misha Jones. Our executive
producers are Christina Everett, Jesse Katz, Jenny Kaplan and Emily Rutterer.
(35:47):
Our editors are Emily Rutter, Britney Martinez, Grace Lynch and
Gianna Palmer.
Speaker 2 (35:51):
Our associate producer is Lucy Jones.
Speaker 1 (35:54):
Production assistance from Avery Loftis and I'm Your Host Sarah
Spain
Host
Sarah Spain
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