June 26, 2025 • 43 mins
Pamela Grundy and Susan Shackelford, co-authors of “Shattering the Glass: The Remarkable History of Women’s Basketball,” join Sarah to talk about trying to fit the history of women’s basketball into one book, the interesting way they became friends and co-authors, and their recent trip to the Women’s Basketball Hall of Fame. Plus, a high profile breakup, Number 13 is headed to the rafters, and it’s almost game time—get out that eyeliner, baby.
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Pick up a copy of “Shattering the Glass: The Remarkable History of Women’s Basketball” here
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See the PWHL Draft results here
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Check out Sportico’s latest WNBA franchise valuations here
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Good Game with Sarah Spain, where we're trying
to get shouted out by Cardi B like Asia Wilson did.
It's Thursday, June twenty sixth Then on today's show, we'll
be talking to Pamela Grundy and Susan Shackelford, authors of
Shattering the Glass, The Remarkable History of Women's Basketball. We'll
talk about why they decided to write a book together,
their takeaways after attending the latest Women's Basketball Hall of
Fame induction, the new pat Summit exhibit they checked out,
(00:22):
and the challenges of tackling a whole lot of women's
basketball history plus a high profile breakup. Number thirteen is
headed to the rafters, and it's time to.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Get out that eyeliner. Baby.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
It's all coming up right after this welcome back slices.
Here's what you need to know today. Let's start with
the WNBA and a star who's on the move. The
Indiana Fever announced on Wednesday that the team is waived
(00:54):
to Wanta Bonner, following a report on Tuesday from Front
of the Show Annie Costable that Bonner wanted out of Indiana.
The six time All Star signed a one year unprotected
contract with the Fever in February, and after starting the
first three games of the season, she was benched in
favor of Lexi Hall and came off the bench for
the next six games, but she's missed the last five
games due to quote unquote personal reasons. Bonner last played
(01:16):
in the team's June tenth game against the Atlanta Dream,
in which she recorded five points, two rebounds, and two assists.
In a statement after being waived, Bonner said, quote, I
want to sincerely thank the Indiana Fever for the opportunity
to be part of the Fever franchise. Despite our shared
goals and excitement heading into the season, I felt the
fit did not work out, and I appreciate the organization's
willingness to grant my request to move on, particularly at
(01:39):
this point in my career. I wish the Fever great
success as they continue to build around this dynamic group.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
Of young players. End quote.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
Bonner has been a full time starter in the league
since twenty twelve and has averaged in double figures in
scoring in each of her fifteen previous seasons in the WNBA.
Per Annie's report for Front Office Sports, she's hoping to
land in either Phoenix or Atlanta. Bonner's high contract value
of two hundred thousand dollars for the season, it'll be
hard for most teams to claim her off waivers as
(02:06):
they'd be taking over her current contract, But once she
clears waivers, she could get signed to a lower value salary,
which would increase the options of where she could go.
With Bonner's departure comes the re signing of Airy McDonald
to a rest of season contract with the Fever. It
marks a return to Indiana for McDonald, who played three
games for the team earlier this season while in an
emergency hardship contract. The Fever are back in action tonight
(02:28):
with the home game against the La Sparks. More WNBA
roster movement, the Golden State Valkyrie announced on Wednesday that
the team is reactivated Temmy fag Benley following the conclusion
of Team Great Britain's participation in EuroBasket twenty twenty five,
in which the team went oh to three and finished
last in their group. With fag been lay back, the
Valx waived Aerial Powers, who had joined the team on
(02:49):
Jude tenth.
Speaker 2 (02:50):
More Valkyrie news.
Speaker 1 (02:52):
On Tuesday, Sportco published its latest WNBA franchise valuations and
the league's newest team top the list. Portico assessed that
the Valkyries have a valuation of five hundred million dollars,
eighty million more than the second place New York Liberty
and one hundred and sixty five million more than the
third place Indiana Fever. In determining WNBA team valuations, which
(03:14):
is the estimated worth of a team, Sportico talked with
industry experts and league execs and owners, in addition to
considering real estate and team related assets like practice facilities.
Per the report, every WNBA team value is up more
than one hundred percent over the last twelve months, and
the teams are collectively worth three point five billion dollars.
We'll link to the full Sportico report in the show
(03:35):
notes more WNBA. The league announced that this week's Players
of the Week are the Washington Mystics Shakira Austin representing
the Eastern Conference, and the Seattle Storms necko Oguma kay
representing the Western Conference. It's the first time in Austin's
career that she's received Player of the Week honors, and
she's also the first Mystics player since Elena Deldon in
twenty twenty two to earn the NOD, which UF says
(03:57):
a lot about the mystics the last couple of years.
Ogoomakay has been here before. She's previously been named Player
of the Week fourteen times. To the p WHL, which
held its annual draft on Tuesday night, The New York
Sirens got things started by selecting Colgate forward Christina Caltonkova
with the number one overall pick of the night, and
minutes later, Sirens general manager Pascal Daou followed that up
(04:20):
by making the move of the night, trading defender Ella
Shelton to Toronto to grab the number three overall pick,
which the Sirens used to select Casey O'Brien, winner of
the Patti Casmier Award for the nation's best player in
her senior season at Wisconsin this year.
Speaker 2 (04:34):
And New York wasn't done making moves.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
Later on draft night, Dou traded forward Abbey Rock to
Montreal in exchange for forward Kristin O'Neil. Given that the
Sirens finished last in the league for both of the
p WHL's two years in existence, the team is clearly
looking to shake things.
Speaker 2 (04:48):
Up heading into season three.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
Other Highlights from draft night include the Boston Fleet picking
up Clarkson defender Hailey Winn with the number two pick,
Montreal's selection of Nicole Gosling with the number four pick,
an Ottawa selection of Rory Gilday at number five, and
you know I was particularly fond of that move, as
gilde spent her college years planned for the fight in
Sarah Spains aka.
Speaker 2 (05:10):
Cornell University.
Speaker 1 (05:11):
Also shout out to fellow Cornelly and Lily Delionidas, who
was drafted in the third round by Seattle.
Speaker 2 (05:16):
We'll link to the full p WHL draft results.
Speaker 1 (05:18):
In the show notes More PWHL. The league announced its
annual award winners on Wednesday, with Montreal forward and new
friend of the Show Marie Philip Pullin receiving both the
Billie Jean King MVP Award and Forward of the Year Award.
Pulin finished the twenty twenty five season as the p
WHL's top goalscorer, finding the back of the nineteen times
and adding seven assists. Other award winners include Toronto's Renata
(05:42):
Fast who is named Defender of the Year, Montreal's and
Renee Debien, who takes home Goaltender of the Year New
York Sarah Filier, who was awarded Rookie of the Year honors,
and Montreal coach Corey Schevy being named Coach of the Year.
Also shout out to another new friend of the Show,
Laura Stacey, who received the league's Hockey for All award
after she raised more than one hundred thousand dollars through
her Sticks In for Charity Hockey tournament. The money has
(06:05):
been donated to athletic programs and underresourced communities in both
Toronto and Montreal to ensure that girls age twelve to
seventeen have access to sports. In honor for win, sponsor
Scotiabank will donate ten thousand Canadian dollars to the charity
of Stacy's choice. If we didn't already love that couple
enough wow. In NWSL news, expansion side Boston Legacy FC
(06:26):
has made it official selecting Benfica head coach Filippa Putau
to take up the mantle. Patau's hiring was first reported
back in May by friend at the Show Jeff cassoof,
but it's now official pending the approval of her visa.
Patau has been with Benfica's women's senior team since twenty twenty,
amassing an overwhelmingly positive all time record one hundred and
fifty six wins, twenty eight losses and fifteen draws. She
(06:47):
led the club to five consecutive Campionado Nacional titles and
to the twenty twenty three to twenty four UEFA Women's
Champions League quarterfinals, making it the first Portuguese club to
reach the tournament's knockout stage. pTau, who is non donated
for the Ball on Door for Coach of the Year
last year, starts her tenure with Boston in July, when
she'll get to work building a roster. In a Legacy release,
(07:08):
Patau said, quote, the American League is extremely competitive, and
that's one of the reasons I accepted this project.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
I like competition, difficulty and getting the.
Speaker 1 (07:16):
Players to strive for more and better, to transform themselves
and always demand more of themselves. I know that Boston
fans are passionate about the city and their teams, and
I'm looking forward to building a new.
Speaker 2 (07:27):
History with them. End quote.
Speaker 1 (07:29):
Boston Legacy FC will be the NWSL's fifteenth franchise and
start play next season.
Speaker 2 (07:35):
More NWSL.
Speaker 1 (07:36):
The San Diego Wave announced on Tuesday that Alex Morgan's
number thirteen jersey will officially be retired in a ceremony
on Sunday, September seventh at Snapdragon Stadium. She's the first
player in the short history of the club to receive
the honor. Morgan retired as the club's all time leading
goal scorer. In fifty appearances, she recorded twenty three goals
and nine as sists per Pro Soccer Wire. Morgan's just
(07:57):
the third NWSL player to have a jersey retilired. FC
Kansas City retired Lauren Holidays number twelve jersey in twenty twelve,
while the Seattle Reign retired Megan Rapino's number fifteen jersey
last season.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
More Soccer.
Speaker 1 (08:09):
The US women's national team takes the field at Dick's
Sporting Goods Park in Commerce City, Colorado, tonight at nine
pm Eastern for the first of two matches against Ireland.
A reminder there's a chance we could be seeing a
few friends of the Show on the pitch tonight. Angelina Anderson,
Emily SAMs, Croy, bethune Yasmine Ryan and Izzy Rodriguez all
made the latest roster. You can catch the action on TBS,
(08:31):
True TV, Universo Max Peacock or Westwood One Sports to
the track today in Paris, Kenyan runner Faith kitp Jegon
will attempt to become the first woman to run a
sub four minute mile.
Speaker 2 (08:43):
Kitp Jegon, a three time.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
Olympic gold medalist in the fifteen hundred meters, currently owns
the world record in both the fifteen hundred and the mile,
having run the latter distance in four minutes seven seconds
back in twenty twenty three. Kitp Jegon will attempt to
accomplish the sub four minute feet with the help of
a pacemaking team, Innovative Shoes, and sponsor Nike, which has
dubbed the project breaking four. Because of all the special
(09:06):
enhancements around the race, including the pacemakers, kit Yegon's time
won't lower the official world record, but would still be
a monumental feat. Kitpya Gun's run will be live streamed
on Prime Video and Nike's YouTube channel, with covered starting
at one fifteen pm Eastern and the event itself scheduled
to get underway at two pm Eastern.
Speaker 2 (09:23):
By the way, did.
Speaker 1 (09:24):
Y'all know that a mile isn't exactly sixteen hundred meters
aka four laps? Around the track. It's actually sixteen hundred
nine meters. Producer Alex didn't when she researched this, and
neither did I, and it's making both of us realize
all those quote unquote timed miles that we ran in
high school in junior high weren't actually timed miles. They
(09:46):
were timed sixteen hundred meters. The more you know, all
right slices. You've heard us mention many times on this
show that the WNBA is expected to agree on a
new CBA at the end of this season, So that
means both sides are geared up for what could be
a major shift in player salaries, amenities, rights and resources,
(10:08):
and what could be a bit of a battle behind
the scenes. Now, it's worth noting that the labor stoppage
isn't out of the question here. There's no guarantee that
the two sides are going to agree on a new deal,
but it would be a pretty terrible move for the
league and for the players to stop the current momentum
and growth with some sort of prolonged contract negotiation and
any loss of games. With that in mind, in recent days,
(10:30):
the WNBPA, the players Association, has started publicly acknowledging the
upcoming negotiations via social media, wisely angling for public support
to make it more difficult for the league to deny the.
Speaker 2 (10:41):
Players what they rightly deserve.
Speaker 1 (10:43):
Among the posts by the WNBPA on Instagram, quote, men's
sports have a revenue based salary system. We deserve the same.
We're fighting for a fair share of the revenue we generate.
Fair is fair, and some of their hashtags include pay us,
fair share, transformational. Another post quote, it's simple. The player's
success should benefit the current and future generations of players
(11:05):
who will carry this league forward. And one more quote,
it's time to level the playing field. As the league grows,
so does our impact and worth. We're standing together for
a CBA that respects and reflects the value we bring
and the revenue we help create. If not now, when now.
The argument for players receiving a higher percentage of revenue
isn't a new one, but it has gotten stronger and
(11:26):
stronger with the major increases in viewership, investment, and evaluations lately.
You might remember a couple episodes ago we talked about
the New York Times opinion piece by economist Claudia Golden,
sharing that the average NBA player salary is eighty times
what the average WNBA player makes, but it should be
closer to just three to four times as much if
you base it on viewers, attendance, sponsorship, and TV money.
(11:49):
So you can understand why the WNBA players and the
Players Association would be pushing for a better percentage of
the revenue they bring in. After her Seattle Storms win
over the New York Liberty on Sunday, WNBA Players Union
President nek Ogumakay spoke about the negotiations, saying, quote, we
have women out here who know the business, and we
understand where our league has been and where it's going,
(12:10):
and we're prepared.
Speaker 2 (12:11):
We're prepared, and.
Speaker 1 (12:12):
We want to be able to come out here and
represent ourselves and our value the same way we do
on the court, in our contracts, in our facilities, in
the standards of the resources that are available to us.
Speaker 2 (12:22):
End quote.
Speaker 1 (12:23):
There's a scheduled meeting between the union and the league
during next month's WNBA All Star Weekend. We'll keep you
updated on the story and on the ways the WNBPA
is using social media to make sure that fans and
media know what they're asking for, making it even more
difficult for the league to turn them down. We'll also
see if the league itself and Commissioner kat the Engelbert
(12:43):
start using a more public pr approach to sway folks
to their side as well. We got to take a
quick break. When we come back, watch out for those
shards of glass. It's Susan and Pamela up next joining
us now. She's a former sports writer for the Miami
Herald and the Charlotte Observer. She's a Phi Beta Kappa
(13:06):
journalism major from the UNC at Chapel Hill and was
the student.
Speaker 2 (13:09):
Newspaper's first female sports editor.
Speaker 1 (13:11):
Based in Charlotte, North Carolina, She's had her own writing
and consulting business since nineteen eighty two. You could find
her on the tennis court, walking, or hiking with her
wife Melissa and their dog Lucy. And she co wrote
the book Shattering the Glass, The Remarkable History of Women's Basketball.
Speaker 2 (13:24):
It's Susan Shackelford.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
Hi, Susan, Hey, good to see you, Sarah, thanks for
coming on.
Speaker 3 (13:30):
Oh yeah, this is great, we've been looking forward to it.
Speaker 1 (13:33):
Well, we means there's someone else joining us, and it's
her friend, co author and neighbor, a historian, author and activist,
whose other works include From Amazon's to Glamazons, The Rise
and Fall of North Carolina Women's basketball. Her work has
won multiple academic awards, and she's written for publications including
The Washington Post, The New York Times, The Charlotte Observer,
and The Queen City Nerve. She's currently working on a
(13:54):
biography of tennis and basketball Great aor Washington.
Speaker 2 (13:57):
It's Pamela Grundy. Hi, Pamela, Hi, Sarah.
Speaker 1 (14:01):
I'm so excited to talk to both of you. We
got to meet at the final four. You were wearing
your slice Giar, which I loved, and I also love
that you are somehow neighbors, co authors and friends, and
I want to know the order of all of that
and how it happened. So, Pamela, how did you two
meet and then decide to write a book together?
Speaker 4 (14:19):
Well, it was long, but not long. I had interviewed
Susan for an earlier book about playing basketball, particularly in
high school, which she'd done in her high school, and
so I knew her sort of. And then across the
street from where my husband and myself live, there was
a house for sale and people bought it. And then
(14:40):
when I saw Susan about I'm like, oh, it's Susan.
I know Susan, and so you know, we we talked.
And a little time after that, I was teaching the
history of sports in college at Davidson College, and I
realized there was no good book on women's sports that
you could assigned to an undergraduate. I mean this would
(15:02):
have been back two thousand and two thousand and one.
I mean there just there were some high level and
that was it. So I thought the best way to
fix that is to write a history of women's basketball,
because it's so great and so long. So I spent
several years trying to get someone else to write that
book because I didn't want to write it. But then
one day it just struck me out of the blue,
(15:25):
Susan and I could write that book together.
Speaker 2 (15:28):
You were looking across the street. She was hanging up.
Speaker 1 (15:31):
Her laundry on an old school drawing line, and you
were like, boom, yeah, no.
Speaker 2 (15:36):
It reminds me of the quote.
Speaker 1 (15:38):
I think it's like, make a decision, and the universe
will conspire to make it happen. So you were trying
to make that decision and the universe put Susan directly
in your view, and you were like, there.
Speaker 4 (15:50):
It is exactly there it was.
Speaker 1 (15:53):
Susan, how did you feel when your next door neighbor
asked you to write a book?
Speaker 3 (15:59):
Well, I was so excited about this possibility because I
love women's basketball, that I just kind of paused and
looked at her and said, I'm like too excited about this,
So I need to walk cross the street and sleep
on it and I'll let you know in the morning.
And so that's exactly what I did, and very early
(16:21):
the next morning, I talked to her and said, let's
get a planned.
Speaker 2 (16:26):
Let's do it.
Speaker 3 (16:27):
Yeah, I mean amazing, yeah, And we did it.
Speaker 1 (16:32):
So you're both qualified to write a book, which makes
it nice if you know that your neighbor can bring
the kind of skills necessary.
Speaker 2 (16:37):
And I want to talk about.
Speaker 1 (16:38):
That quickly before we get to the book, because Susan
first female editor of The tar Heel, and you spent
time at newspapers at a time when there weren't a
lot of women in the sports section. What stands out
to you about that time and did you feel like
you had to have another particular set of skills beyond
being a writer to manage and survive and thrive.
Speaker 3 (16:56):
Then I think you just really had to have the person,
passion and commitment to do it. There wasn't a lot
of at a girls being passed out to any of
us that were trying to break through. You know. When
I was in college, I was often, you know, waiting
outside the locker room and begging guys to go in
(17:16):
there and get quotes from players. They wouldn't let me in.
They were only a handful of us trying to cover
things here in North Carolina at the time, you know.
And when I went to the newspapers, you know, I
was I was not the first person woman but at
either the Chot Observer or the Miami Herald. But at
(17:36):
the time that I went there, I was the only one.
And it was still the seventies and it was hard
to get people really interested in women's sports. So, I mean,
that's just been a problem that we charted with basketball
in the book.
Speaker 1 (17:56):
Yeah, Pamily, You've written a number of other books, including
the North Carolina Women's Basketball one I mentioned, but also
American Sports Teaching US History through sports. Over the course
of your career, as you've tried to figure out what
your next big topic might be, what has pushed you
towards the book? What has pushed you toward this is
just an article versus this is something I want to
(18:18):
dive deeply into.
Speaker 4 (18:20):
Well, I think part of it is really I am
not actually an academic. I mean I have a PhD.
But okayma independently.
Speaker 1 (18:28):
Come on, you are an academic if you have a pafd.
Speaker 4 (18:31):
Well, academic. It's not necessarily the most positive words. Sometimes so,
especially when they talk about your writing, there's like, oh,
it's very academic. That is not fair, not a compliment.
But in any case, the way books come to me,
like this women's basketball book, I was like, well, this
needs to happen. This needs to be done by biography
(18:54):
of or Washington to a degree, this needs to be done.
This woman needs to have biography to cement her place.
And she was the first great national black female athletic star.
She's this extraordinary person that people need to know about,
so needs to be done. That's kind of what I
(19:16):
look for. Of course, that's to be interesting. Yeah, I
could write something boring just because it needs to be well.
Speaker 1 (19:21):
Boring probably doesn't need to be done quite so often
as it is really exciting.
Speaker 2 (19:25):
Need to know So let's talk about your book.
Speaker 1 (19:28):
Tackling the history of women's sports is a big task.
Whittling it down to the most compelling, most important, most meaningful,
most change making moments must have been difficult. So, Susan,
you mentioned your first response is, yes, I'll write the book.
Let's map it out, let's plan it out. What was
that first step to understanding what you wanted to get
across with the book and what stories you wanted to
(19:48):
make sure you're told.
Speaker 3 (19:50):
Well, I think the first thing was to look at
where our strengths lay. And Sam, given her background and
her background in the.
Speaker 4 (20:01):
End academic, well it's hurting.
Speaker 3 (20:04):
At this time. Yeah, she knew where there was a
lot of material on this history of women's basketball going
back to eighteen ninety two when the game started. She
knew where it was, and she thought, well, Susan's been
covering women's sports since the seventies and I was a
(20:30):
pretty title nine baby, and I sort of went through
the difficulties there and came forward that I know the
more modern stuff. So we kind of talked about the
lay of the land as it were, as to where
we could both have our greatest strengths, and then we
also knew we had to decide how we're going to
(20:52):
tell it, what you know, and how we were going
to work together. The beauty of it was we're both
former journalist. I am worked at newspapers. I worked at newspapers.
We had a similar idea about how to tell stories,
and I cannot tell you how that just simplified matters
so much. And then I think as we talked about
(21:15):
the material, we started honing our homing in on the stories.
Speaker 1 (21:20):
Yeah, it's hard for me to imagine, as someone who
just wrote my first book, the idea of having to
have a co author with the same voice. I do
have a co author, but it's his life story, so
he just had to tell me the story.
Speaker 2 (21:32):
I had to turn it into book for him.
Speaker 1 (21:34):
But writing together and like you said, having the same
approach to reporting and telling a story super super important. Pamela,
I'd love to hear a couple of standout selections from
the book you can share with our listeners to entice
them to buy the whole thing.
Speaker 2 (21:48):
Because it is comprehensive.
Speaker 1 (21:50):
I was so impressed by the research that you did
and the way you made it really interesting to read
about things you know, Like you said, dating really far back.
Speaker 2 (21:58):
So what's the story that's ends out to you.
Speaker 4 (22:01):
Well, I love the story of the young women who
started playing basketball in the nineteen twenties. This was a
moment when high schools were being built and sports was
coming to high schools, and high schools were you know,
boys and girls, and so all of a sudden, these
young women had access to playing sports, generally basketball because
(22:25):
I was considered the you know, appropriate sport for young women.
And also a lot of rural schools, I mean boys
was basketball too, because they didn't have enough boys for
a football team. So basketball was the thing. And these
young women, this is something they've never been able to
do before, and the way they talk about it is
so interesting. I'll just take a couple of examples from Charlotte.
(22:47):
There was a group of young women who started the
team at Central High School, which is Charlotte's main white
high school. And she said, well, we went up to
the you know, just to the principal and said were
you were your basketb that we're in. And then in
the in the yearbook, you see written under the picture
it says man's age has been here to four, but
(23:11):
now woman's age is coming in in politics and in athletics.
Speaker 1 (23:16):
I can't decide if I'm excited or disappointed and depressed
by that. It feels like we've been saying that for
quite a long time and we have yet to make
it fully realized.
Speaker 4 (23:24):
Well, it's true, they had suffrage had just passed, so
it was a moment of grade seven. But then the
other piece, and this is a young woman. About three
years later, I interviewed her when she was in her eighties,
and one of the first things she did they had
she had a picture of the team and she points
to it and she says, we rolled out. You see
(23:47):
how we did it, And what that meant was they
had short gloomers and they had rolled their stockings down
below their knees, and that was just again daring and
challenging the rules. And seventy years later she remembered that
vividly and.
Speaker 1 (24:03):
Was very Yeah, I love the photos from those early
days because it is this ridiculous to imagine trying to
play basketball in a poofy skirt. And also some of
the reporting. One of the games was described as very
exciting despite the low score, and I'm like, oh, what
kind of low score?
Speaker 2 (24:20):
Two to one? Two to one.
Speaker 1 (24:22):
It was with the vital score of the game, so
the scoring was a little different as.
Speaker 2 (24:27):
You can tell.
Speaker 4 (24:27):
Yeah, it was one point at a time.
Speaker 1 (24:29):
Amazing to imagine that there was a high excitement to
the game despite only a few baskets being made.
Speaker 3 (24:35):
It speaks to how they tried to keep the game
fairly sedate. Women were itching to play, as Pam described,
and they needed something to do, but then they put
all these constraints on them. Yeah, not just their clothes,
which were the close of the day, but the rules
of the game and what they could and couldn't do,
(24:57):
and oh it was. It was just kind of an nightmare.
Speaker 2 (25:00):
For a very long time.
Speaker 1 (25:01):
Women's basketball was half court, no dribbling, and six people
to a side. So it wasn't really the basketball that
we think of, But it would be delightful to play
that if you had been given nothing else. And that
was one of the things that stood out to me
from that section of the book is I had never
really considered the idea that basketball came along after sports
that men were playing, that they never would have allowed
(25:23):
women to things like football, things that had really physical play.
And even if it was a different form of basketball,
where you're standing and not dribbling and not creating contact,
it still was a game that they were excited to
have the chance to play. Susan, what's a segment of
the book or a story from the book that really
stands out to you when.
Speaker 3 (25:41):
I think back on Title nine, I think back on
how we had some coaches that were able to step
in when everything was new with that wall, and where
did they come from? Where they came from was really
a bleak period in women's basketball. There was not hardly
(26:05):
any of it across the country except in small towns
and rural areas. And a lot of the women that
played that came out of those areas. They loved it
just as much as all these other women. And so
then at Title nine and a little before, some of
them got involved in these fledgling programs. And k Yal
at NC State is a perfect example. She graduated high
(26:29):
school in nineteen sixty, she left basketball behind. She didn't
think about it, there wasn't an option. And then later
she had her teaching degree, she wants to get a job.
She goes to the high school not too far from
her house, just maybe thirty minutes away, and the guy
remembered what a high school star she was in her town,
(26:54):
and he said, well, I will give you a job
if you will be my girls' basketball coach. Said well,
I didn't train to be a basketball coach. He said,
I don't care, and she said, well I want the job,
I'll do it. And as soon as she did, she
got into it. She absolutely loved it, and she realized
that she all the way through college when she was
(27:16):
training to be a teacher, she had just kind of
felt like something was really missing, and it was that
passion for the game, having that outlet, and so it
rekindled that. And there are other women like that. Not
exactly Ka's story, but Kay, as you know, went on
to be a great coach at NC.
Speaker 1 (27:34):
State and has left a lasting legacy in a number
of ways for sure.
Speaker 4 (27:39):
And another great coach, Vivian Stringer. Her high school didn't
have a basketball team, and to get near to the
games because she would play like on the playground with
all the old boys, she had to become a cheerleader.
That was that was it for her, and then she
moved from that to her fabulous coaching career. But there
(28:02):
was no girl sports at her at her.
Speaker 2 (28:05):
School, wild to imagine that.
Speaker 1 (28:06):
I was thinking, I wished I had read your book
before the interview I did with Muffett mcgron, Tara Vanderveer,
because at this point, Tara's career is so legendary. There
is so much to ask her about from her years
at Stanford, and I didn't even dive deep enough to
understand that she also came from a very different time
before she had the opportunity to become the Hall of
(28:27):
Famer that she has.
Speaker 2 (28:27):
Can you speak to that, Pamela.
Speaker 4 (28:29):
Well, absolutely. I mean again, you be growing up mostly
the late fifties to the sixties, and they just won
any sports, you know. I think she says in the
book that then at that time a lot of boys
wouldn't play with girls either. I think said she saved
her money, went out and got the best basketball she
could find, and if the boys wanted to play with
(28:51):
that basketball, they'd have to play with her. I mean,
you can see how you develop this kind of determination.
Because she loved the game. She played as much as
she could. She tried to play a little bit in college,
but it was that very beginning. But she had to
take that passion. She had to make her own way
basically as opposed to now, where at least there's some
(29:13):
idea of how you might do it.
Speaker 1 (29:15):
It's pretty remarkable to think about how recent that is.
That this is a coach that just retired a couple
of years ago, but when she started out, that was
still the state of the game for women. And she
even mentioned in our interview and was pretty effusive and
passionate about not wanting the love of the game part
of it to be lost to nil and the modernization
(29:36):
and professionalization of the college game.
Speaker 2 (29:38):
And you could tell when.
Speaker 1 (29:39):
She spoke to it that like it really meant something
when she said, I was dying for every chance an
opportunity I had to get on a court, whether paid
or unpaid, whether.
Speaker 2 (29:49):
Anyone was watching or not. It was just about basketball.
Speaker 1 (29:52):
And while some people might turn up their nose at
older folks who seem critical or at least have some
sort of judgment about the new look of collegiate sports,
I understand it when you phrase it that way. I
get that there needs to be a balance of the two.
And it's great to also reward these players for their skills.
Speaker 2 (30:09):
But there is.
Speaker 1 (30:09):
Something very romantic and true and pure about the way
the women who started the game sow it because they
had no choice but to be so passionate as to
muscle their way in to the opportunities that they got.
Do you have one or two more stories from the
book you'd like to share, either one of you or both.
Speaker 3 (30:29):
Well, one thing that was pivotal in where we are
today was the nineteen ninety six Olympic team. And I
don't know how much you remember about that, per se,
but when we were you know, this was what six
seven years before we started the book. Well, I had
(30:51):
been going to women's final fours for years, and I
went to I went to all kinds of games. I
knew in the early nineties that things were really improving.
Cheryl Swoops came on the scene. She lit it up
in the Final four. And then just after that, the
NBA and the Olympic Committee and corporate sponsor said, we
(31:15):
really need to make a run at the ninety six Olympics.
And we had the women had only won the bronze
in ninety two, and they're like, we need the gold.
So they put money up and they put together a
team that went all around the country and overseas playing
the train. Essentially, they were unbelievable. Don Staley was on
(31:39):
that swoops, Rebecca Lobo, Gosh, I wish I could name
them all. They were just unbelievable, and I got to
see them win the gold in Atlanta, amaz It was
just and that whole arena was pulsating. I will never
forget it. And I thought, this has is a pivotal moment.
(32:03):
I think some stuff's going to come out of this.
And sure enough, you know, we got the ABL then
we got to WNDA, and the WNDA is still going
and going at great strength right now.
Speaker 1 (32:18):
Yeah, Pamela, she mentioned that that Olympics was just a
couple of years before you started the book. That's because
there was a two thousand and five edition, but you
updated it in twenty twenty five. So I'm curious about
the notable editions that made you feel like, oh, we've
got to re.
Speaker 2 (32:34):
Release this and talk about what's happening now.
Speaker 4 (32:38):
Well, that's exactly how we felt. And of course we
had it all organized before Caitlyn Clark burst upon the scene,
and you know, interest is jumped, but we could we
since there was more interest, you know, the game was
growing again. We thought those you know, like you said
about the nineteen twenties. We thought this was happening at
(32:58):
the beginning of the entry, you know, you thought, oh,
it's going to get better and better and better and better,
and we'll have our book and it'll be great. But
of course that's not what happened. But there were some
tremendous changes, particularly in the social activism that the WNBA
(33:18):
was taking on. I mean, it's something much more than
just oh, you know this had you know, day one
and then day one and the day one we were
really looking. The reason what brought us to it was
really thinking there's a lot more to be said both
about basketball and about how it and the players and
the game interact with society. So we have one section
(33:41):
on the way that that players overcame to a considerable
degree the homophobia that had kind of pervaded not just
society but also the organization to a degree, publicity agents,
all of that, and they just addressed it and dealt
with it. Then you both got people playing better, they're
(34:02):
more themselves, you know, Super talks about that that you
can just do better when you're not trying to hide something,
And so that happened, and then we look at the
Black Lives Matter work, which some people don't know started
with the Minnesota Lynx the sports and then it was
only when Colin kaepernet knelt sometime later that you know,
(34:26):
it really took off. But the WNBA then in their
wubble in twenty twenty, were very open and very focused
about what they thought should happen in society, the inequalities
they saw, and just speaking out on that. So there
was a lot of stuff to do.
Speaker 2 (34:45):
Yeah, there was a lot to add.
Speaker 1 (34:46):
It's been really rocket ship sort of growth the last
couple of years, which has been really exciting, but it
is always a little heartbreaking to me when I read
about or see reports of giant crowds and tons of
enthusiasm decades and decades and decades ago, and think to myself,
without the intentional suppression of this, if it had been supported,
(35:08):
invested in, and talked about the way we do men's
where would we be now. I'm grateful for where we are,
but also extremely pissed. I want to talk about the
way that the game keeps growing and the things that
you could be tempted to add to a future edition
of the book, and that includes the recent Women's Basketball
(35:29):
Hall of Fame inductions and the stories that you heard there,
the folks that were being honored there, Susan or Are
there a couple of memorable moments from that because you
two attended that together just a couple of weeks ago.
Speaker 3 (35:42):
Yeah, we did. It was great. We got an invitation
from the Hall of Fame to come and that was
so nice. We autographed books. People really seem to like it.
We were able to talk to all the inductees, plus
be there for the opening of the Pat Summit exhibit,
the new one. I mean, obviously they've had her in there,
(36:04):
but this is on a whole other level. And Pam
and I both noticed when we first gazed on that
on that exhibit, how they captured Pat with a quote
about just out working people and they did a front
on picture of her with the famous stare.
Speaker 2 (36:25):
You know, the low.
Speaker 3 (36:28):
It was. It was so that was such a great choice.
And then when you stepped inside it, you were just
enveloped with everything Pat. I mean, it was quite quite remarkable.
And uh, Pam, I'll let you pick up if you
want to add another story, there's plenty of them.
Speaker 4 (36:46):
It's one of the people it was just great to
see was Lucille Cavallos, who was so significant in this
early era that sometimes gets lost. I think, as we've
all seen, always assumed things have always been the way
they were. People don't necessarily think about how they got there.
So some people just think the NCAA was it. You know,
(37:09):
the records start there they were when they took over,
and I think nineteen eighty two they forget those earlier
years that there was a whole group of women who
worked against much more significant odds who built the game
up in Lucille Cavallos, who was at Queen's was one
of those early early pioneers. One of the things cool.
Lots of people came to support her because she just
(37:31):
you know, she was a mentor. She had all this
influence beyond just coaching. But Kathy Rush came from from
the Whaling team, you know, the coach that took Whale
into three straight championships in that earlier era. Because I
think she'd she'd worked with Lucille, she'd been a coach
or a player. I can't remember.
Speaker 3 (37:52):
She actually was a player under Lucille when Lucille was
at Westchester State, another early leader in the late sixties
seventies for women's basketball, and I believe Rush actually was
the coach of Ammacilotta.
Speaker 4 (38:08):
Oh I'm sorry, I said, Whalen, No, you're absolutely right.
Speaker 3 (38:10):
That's okay. Yeah, yeah, when they got those national titles,
and she might even still be there today, except that
when Title nine came in, they the school being very
small and the Catholic school, they didn't feel like they
had the money for scholarships and that was going to
be essential. And Kathy said, and she reiterated it to
(38:32):
me when I saw her, I met her when she
was there, that you know, they just couldn't do it.
So she stepped out at that time and just concentrated
on her basketball camps that she had for kids. And
so Lucille also was part of the first women's basketball
(38:52):
game at Madison Square Garden and that was really significant.
That was in the seventies. And she told the story
about how she was called and now I can't remember
who it was that had the foresight about this, but
somebody out outside the school and just said, would you
be interested in this? And this was like mid seventies,
(39:15):
and she just said, of course, I would love it.
So she and who was a team she played?
Speaker 4 (39:22):
Did she play at mac Queens.
Speaker 3 (39:25):
She was at Queen's but I can't remember right off
who her opponent was, but it was on television and
you know, massive crowd there, big crowd on television, and
then I think they actually played another game later. I
mean that was a I remember that I was in
college and just after college when that was happening. So
(39:47):
to me to meet the famous Lucille Cavallas was a thrill.
Speaker 1 (39:53):
Well, stories like that are why your book is so important,
Because when we hear about these WNBA games being moved
to NBA stadiums, we talk about the attendance, we talk
about the eyeballs. It's important to know the context that
there were games at MSG all those years ago, that
there were these moments and sparks for women's sport, and
YouTube documenting that and chronicling it and being a part
(40:15):
of the fandom and the support and the journalism around
this for so long is to be commended, and so
thank you for being on the forefront of this for
such a long time and for creating this incredible book
for those of us who came around later and want
to learn about what happened before us and get the
context and the nuance to really enjoy what we're watching now.
So thanks so much for the book, and thanks so much.
Speaker 2 (40:35):
For coming on.
Speaker 3 (40:35):
Oh you're welcome.
Speaker 1 (40:36):
Thanks, We got to take another break when we come back.
Are they goth or do they just play women's basketball?
Welcome back, slices. We love that you're listening, but we
want you to get in the game every day too.
So here's our good game play of the day. Go
(40:58):
get Pamela and Susan's book, Shattering the Glass, The remarkable
History of women's Basketball. There's so much more in the
book that we didn't get to talk about, and it's
the kind of context in history we're always preaching on
this show, stuff that'll make you appreciate the current moment
in women's hoops even more. We always love to hear
from you, too, so hit us up on email good
game at Wondermedia network dot com or leave us a
voicemail at eight seven two two four fifty seventy and
(41:20):
don't forget to subscribe, rate and review. Come on, scroll down,
give us five stars, tell us you love us.
Speaker 2 (41:27):
It's really easy.
Speaker 1 (41:28):
Promise watch goth basketball player Kaitlyn Cunningham aka Caitlin Dark
aka Deathcab for Kaitlin aka Backboard Confessional, rating ten out.
Speaker 2 (41:38):
Of ten shades of black.
Speaker 1 (41:39):
In Every Game Day Makeup Book review, Australian basketball player
Kaitlyn Cunningham set the Internet on fire with their goth makeup,
tattoos and just general emo vibes. Caitlin Rock's heavy eyeliner
and eyeshadow on the court for the Rockhampton Cyclones of
the Australian NBL one East League. Not only do they
ball out boy on the court, they're in a queer
(42:00):
pop punk band and model on the side as well,
and my favorite part of the story. In a TikTok video,
talking about their sudden fame, Cunningham said, the comments in
their videos and posts have been all positive, with tons
of folks showing love for their unique and badass look.
And this is why I love women's sports. I've said
it once, They'll say it again. This is the good place.
(42:21):
Now it's your turn, y'all, rate and review, Thanks for listening,
See you tomorrow. Good game, Susan, good game, Pamela. You
anyone still voting for known sex harassers and pieces of shit?
To quote New York City Comptroller Brad Lander, good gin riddance.
Speaker 2 (42:36):
Andrew Cuomo.
Speaker 1 (42:38):
Good Game with Sarah Spain is an iHeart women's sports
production in partnership with Deep Blue Sports and Entertainment.
Speaker 2 (42:44):
You could find us on the.
Speaker 1 (42:45):
iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Production by Wonder Media Network, our producers are Alex Azzie
and Misha Jones. Our executive producers are Christina Everett, Jesse Katz,
Jenny Kaplan and Emily Rudder. Our editors are Emily Rutter,
Brittany Martinez, Grace Lynch and Gianna Palmer. Are Associate producer
is Lucy Jones and I'm Your Host Sarah Spain
Welcome to Good Game with Sarah Spain, where we're trying
to get shouted out by Cardi B like Asia Wilson did.
It's Thursday, June twenty sixth Then on today's show, we'll
be talking to Pamela Grundy and Susan Shackelford, authors of
Shattering the Glass, The Remarkable History of Women's Basketball. We'll
talk about why they decided to write a book together,
their takeaways after attending the latest Women's Basketball Hall of
Fame induction, the new pat Summit exhibit they checked out,
(00:22):
and the challenges of tackling a whole lot of women's
basketball history plus a high profile breakup. Number thirteen is
headed to the rafters, and it's time to.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Get out that eyeliner. Baby.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
It's all coming up right after this welcome back slices.
Here's what you need to know today. Let's start with
the WNBA and a star who's on the move. The
Indiana Fever announced on Wednesday that the team is waived
(00:54):
to Wanta Bonner, following a report on Tuesday from Front
of the Show Annie Costable that Bonner wanted out of Indiana.
The six time All Star signed a one year unprotected
contract with the Fever in February, and after starting the
first three games of the season, she was benched in
favor of Lexi Hall and came off the bench for
the next six games, but she's missed the last five
games due to quote unquote personal reasons. Bonner last played
(01:16):
in the team's June tenth game against the Atlanta Dream,
in which she recorded five points, two rebounds, and two assists.
In a statement after being waived, Bonner said, quote, I
want to sincerely thank the Indiana Fever for the opportunity
to be part of the Fever franchise. Despite our shared
goals and excitement heading into the season, I felt the
fit did not work out, and I appreciate the organization's
willingness to grant my request to move on, particularly at
(01:39):
this point in my career. I wish the Fever great
success as they continue to build around this dynamic group.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
Of young players. End quote.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
Bonner has been a full time starter in the league
since twenty twelve and has averaged in double figures in
scoring in each of her fifteen previous seasons in the WNBA.
Per Annie's report for Front Office Sports, she's hoping to
land in either Phoenix or Atlanta. Bonner's high contract value
of two hundred thousand dollars for the season, it'll be
hard for most teams to claim her off waivers as
(02:06):
they'd be taking over her current contract, But once she
clears waivers, she could get signed to a lower value salary,
which would increase the options of where she could go.
With Bonner's departure comes the re signing of Airy McDonald
to a rest of season contract with the Fever. It
marks a return to Indiana for McDonald, who played three
games for the team earlier this season while in an
emergency hardship contract. The Fever are back in action tonight
(02:28):
with the home game against the La Sparks. More WNBA
roster movement, the Golden State Valkyrie announced on Wednesday that
the team is reactivated Temmy fag Benley following the conclusion
of Team Great Britain's participation in EuroBasket twenty twenty five,
in which the team went oh to three and finished
last in their group. With fag been lay back, the
Valx waived Aerial Powers, who had joined the team on
(02:49):
Jude tenth.
Speaker 2 (02:50):
More Valkyrie news.
Speaker 1 (02:52):
On Tuesday, Sportco published its latest WNBA franchise valuations and
the league's newest team top the list. Portico assessed that
the Valkyries have a valuation of five hundred million dollars,
eighty million more than the second place New York Liberty
and one hundred and sixty five million more than the
third place Indiana Fever. In determining WNBA team valuations, which
(03:14):
is the estimated worth of a team, Sportico talked with
industry experts and league execs and owners, in addition to
considering real estate and team related assets like practice facilities.
Per the report, every WNBA team value is up more
than one hundred percent over the last twelve months, and
the teams are collectively worth three point five billion dollars.
We'll link to the full Sportico report in the show
(03:35):
notes more WNBA. The league announced that this week's Players
of the Week are the Washington Mystics Shakira Austin representing
the Eastern Conference, and the Seattle Storms necko Oguma kay
representing the Western Conference. It's the first time in Austin's
career that she's received Player of the Week honors, and
she's also the first Mystics player since Elena Deldon in
twenty twenty two to earn the NOD, which UF says
(03:57):
a lot about the mystics the last couple of years.
Ogoomakay has been here before. She's previously been named Player
of the Week fourteen times. To the p WHL, which
held its annual draft on Tuesday night, The New York
Sirens got things started by selecting Colgate forward Christina Caltonkova
with the number one overall pick of the night, and
minutes later, Sirens general manager Pascal Daou followed that up
(04:20):
by making the move of the night, trading defender Ella
Shelton to Toronto to grab the number three overall pick,
which the Sirens used to select Casey O'Brien, winner of
the Patti Casmier Award for the nation's best player in
her senior season at Wisconsin this year.
Speaker 2 (04:34):
And New York wasn't done making moves.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
Later on draft night, Dou traded forward Abbey Rock to
Montreal in exchange for forward Kristin O'Neil. Given that the
Sirens finished last in the league for both of the
p WHL's two years in existence, the team is clearly
looking to shake things.
Speaker 2 (04:48):
Up heading into season three.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
Other Highlights from draft night include the Boston Fleet picking
up Clarkson defender Hailey Winn with the number two pick,
Montreal's selection of Nicole Gosling with the number four pick,
an Ottawa selection of Rory Gilday at number five, and
you know I was particularly fond of that move, as
gilde spent her college years planned for the fight in
Sarah Spains aka.
Speaker 2 (05:10):
Cornell University.
Speaker 1 (05:11):
Also shout out to fellow Cornelly and Lily Delionidas, who
was drafted in the third round by Seattle.
Speaker 2 (05:16):
We'll link to the full p WHL draft results.
Speaker 1 (05:18):
In the show notes More PWHL. The league announced its
annual award winners on Wednesday, with Montreal forward and new
friend of the Show Marie Philip Pullin receiving both the
Billie Jean King MVP Award and Forward of the Year Award.
Pulin finished the twenty twenty five season as the p
WHL's top goalscorer, finding the back of the nineteen times
and adding seven assists. Other award winners include Toronto's Renata
(05:42):
Fast who is named Defender of the Year, Montreal's and
Renee Debien, who takes home Goaltender of the Year New
York Sarah Filier, who was awarded Rookie of the Year honors,
and Montreal coach Corey Schevy being named Coach of the Year.
Also shout out to another new friend of the Show,
Laura Stacey, who received the league's Hockey for All award
after she raised more than one hundred thousand dollars through
her Sticks In for Charity Hockey tournament. The money has
(06:05):
been donated to athletic programs and underresourced communities in both
Toronto and Montreal to ensure that girls age twelve to
seventeen have access to sports. In honor for win, sponsor
Scotiabank will donate ten thousand Canadian dollars to the charity
of Stacy's choice. If we didn't already love that couple
enough wow. In NWSL news, expansion side Boston Legacy FC
(06:26):
has made it official selecting Benfica head coach Filippa Putau
to take up the mantle. Patau's hiring was first reported
back in May by friend at the Show Jeff cassoof,
but it's now official pending the approval of her visa.
Patau has been with Benfica's women's senior team since twenty twenty,
amassing an overwhelmingly positive all time record one hundred and
fifty six wins, twenty eight losses and fifteen draws. She
(06:47):
led the club to five consecutive Campionado Nacional titles and
to the twenty twenty three to twenty four UEFA Women's
Champions League quarterfinals, making it the first Portuguese club to
reach the tournament's knockout stage. pTau, who is non donated
for the Ball on Door for Coach of the Year
last year, starts her tenure with Boston in July, when
she'll get to work building a roster. In a Legacy release,
(07:08):
Patau said, quote, the American League is extremely competitive, and
that's one of the reasons I accepted this project.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
I like competition, difficulty and getting the.
Speaker 1 (07:16):
Players to strive for more and better, to transform themselves
and always demand more of themselves. I know that Boston
fans are passionate about the city and their teams, and
I'm looking forward to building a new.
Speaker 2 (07:27):
History with them. End quote.
Speaker 1 (07:29):
Boston Legacy FC will be the NWSL's fifteenth franchise and
start play next season.
Speaker 2 (07:35):
More NWSL.
Speaker 1 (07:36):
The San Diego Wave announced on Tuesday that Alex Morgan's
number thirteen jersey will officially be retired in a ceremony
on Sunday, September seventh at Snapdragon Stadium. She's the first
player in the short history of the club to receive
the honor. Morgan retired as the club's all time leading
goal scorer. In fifty appearances, she recorded twenty three goals
and nine as sists per Pro Soccer Wire. Morgan's just
(07:57):
the third NWSL player to have a jersey retilired. FC
Kansas City retired Lauren Holidays number twelve jersey in twenty twelve,
while the Seattle Reign retired Megan Rapino's number fifteen jersey
last season.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
More Soccer.
Speaker 1 (08:09):
The US women's national team takes the field at Dick's
Sporting Goods Park in Commerce City, Colorado, tonight at nine
pm Eastern for the first of two matches against Ireland.
A reminder there's a chance we could be seeing a
few friends of the Show on the pitch tonight. Angelina Anderson,
Emily SAMs, Croy, bethune Yasmine Ryan and Izzy Rodriguez all
made the latest roster. You can catch the action on TBS,
(08:31):
True TV, Universo Max Peacock or Westwood One Sports to
the track today in Paris, Kenyan runner Faith kitp Jegon
will attempt to become the first woman to run a
sub four minute mile.
Speaker 2 (08:43):
Kitp Jegon, a three time.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
Olympic gold medalist in the fifteen hundred meters, currently owns
the world record in both the fifteen hundred and the mile,
having run the latter distance in four minutes seven seconds
back in twenty twenty three. Kitp Jegon will attempt to
accomplish the sub four minute feet with the help of
a pacemaking team, Innovative Shoes, and sponsor Nike, which has
dubbed the project breaking four. Because of all the special
(09:06):
enhancements around the race, including the pacemakers, kit Yegon's time
won't lower the official world record, but would still be
a monumental feat. Kitpya Gun's run will be live streamed
on Prime Video and Nike's YouTube channel, with covered starting
at one fifteen pm Eastern and the event itself scheduled
to get underway at two pm Eastern.
Speaker 2 (09:23):
By the way, did.
Speaker 1 (09:24):
Y'all know that a mile isn't exactly sixteen hundred meters
aka four laps? Around the track. It's actually sixteen hundred
nine meters. Producer Alex didn't when she researched this, and
neither did I, and it's making both of us realize
all those quote unquote timed miles that we ran in
high school in junior high weren't actually timed miles. They
(09:46):
were timed sixteen hundred meters. The more you know, all
right slices. You've heard us mention many times on this
show that the WNBA is expected to agree on a
new CBA at the end of this season, So that
means both sides are geared up for what could be
a major shift in player salaries, amenities, rights and resources,
(10:08):
and what could be a bit of a battle behind
the scenes. Now, it's worth noting that the labor stoppage
isn't out of the question here. There's no guarantee that
the two sides are going to agree on a new deal,
but it would be a pretty terrible move for the
league and for the players to stop the current momentum
and growth with some sort of prolonged contract negotiation and
any loss of games. With that in mind, in recent days,
(10:30):
the WNBPA, the players Association, has started publicly acknowledging the
upcoming negotiations via social media, wisely angling for public support
to make it more difficult for the league to deny the.
Speaker 2 (10:41):
Players what they rightly deserve.
Speaker 1 (10:43):
Among the posts by the WNBPA on Instagram, quote, men's
sports have a revenue based salary system. We deserve the same.
We're fighting for a fair share of the revenue we generate.
Fair is fair, and some of their hashtags include pay us,
fair share, transformational. Another post quote, it's simple. The player's
success should benefit the current and future generations of players
(11:05):
who will carry this league forward. And one more quote,
it's time to level the playing field. As the league grows,
so does our impact and worth. We're standing together for
a CBA that respects and reflects the value we bring
and the revenue we help create. If not now, when now.
The argument for players receiving a higher percentage of revenue
isn't a new one, but it has gotten stronger and
(11:26):
stronger with the major increases in viewership, investment, and evaluations lately.
You might remember a couple episodes ago we talked about
the New York Times opinion piece by economist Claudia Golden,
sharing that the average NBA player salary is eighty times
what the average WNBA player makes, but it should be
closer to just three to four times as much if
you base it on viewers, attendance, sponsorship, and TV money.
(11:49):
So you can understand why the WNBA players and the
Players Association would be pushing for a better percentage of
the revenue they bring in. After her Seattle Storms win
over the New York Liberty on Sunday, WNBA Players Union
President nek Ogumakay spoke about the negotiations, saying, quote, we
have women out here who know the business, and we
understand where our league has been and where it's going,
(12:10):
and we're prepared.
Speaker 2 (12:11):
We're prepared, and.
Speaker 1 (12:12):
We want to be able to come out here and
represent ourselves and our value the same way we do
on the court, in our contracts, in our facilities, in
the standards of the resources that are available to us.
Speaker 2 (12:22):
End quote.
Speaker 1 (12:23):
There's a scheduled meeting between the union and the league
during next month's WNBA All Star Weekend. We'll keep you
updated on the story and on the ways the WNBPA
is using social media to make sure that fans and
media know what they're asking for, making it even more
difficult for the league to turn them down. We'll also
see if the league itself and Commissioner kat the Engelbert
(12:43):
start using a more public pr approach to sway folks
to their side as well. We got to take a
quick break. When we come back, watch out for those
shards of glass. It's Susan and Pamela up next joining
us now. She's a former sports writer for the Miami
Herald and the Charlotte Observer. She's a Phi Beta Kappa
(13:06):
journalism major from the UNC at Chapel Hill and was
the student.
Speaker 2 (13:09):
Newspaper's first female sports editor.
Speaker 1 (13:11):
Based in Charlotte, North Carolina, She's had her own writing
and consulting business since nineteen eighty two. You could find
her on the tennis court, walking, or hiking with her
wife Melissa and their dog Lucy. And she co wrote
the book Shattering the Glass, The Remarkable History of Women's Basketball.
Speaker 2 (13:24):
It's Susan Shackelford.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
Hi, Susan, Hey, good to see you, Sarah, thanks for
coming on.
Speaker 3 (13:30):
Oh yeah, this is great, we've been looking forward to it.
Speaker 1 (13:33):
Well, we means there's someone else joining us, and it's
her friend, co author and neighbor, a historian, author and activist,
whose other works include From Amazon's to Glamazons, The Rise
and Fall of North Carolina Women's basketball. Her work has
won multiple academic awards, and she's written for publications including
The Washington Post, The New York Times, The Charlotte Observer,
and The Queen City Nerve. She's currently working on a
(13:54):
biography of tennis and basketball Great aor Washington.
Speaker 2 (13:57):
It's Pamela Grundy. Hi, Pamela, Hi, Sarah.
Speaker 1 (14:01):
I'm so excited to talk to both of you. We
got to meet at the final four. You were wearing
your slice Giar, which I loved, and I also love
that you are somehow neighbors, co authors and friends, and
I want to know the order of all of that
and how it happened. So, Pamela, how did you two
meet and then decide to write a book together?
Speaker 4 (14:19):
Well, it was long, but not long. I had interviewed
Susan for an earlier book about playing basketball, particularly in
high school, which she'd done in her high school, and
so I knew her sort of. And then across the
street from where my husband and myself live, there was
a house for sale and people bought it. And then
(14:40):
when I saw Susan about I'm like, oh, it's Susan.
I know Susan, and so you know, we we talked.
And a little time after that, I was teaching the
history of sports in college at Davidson College, and I
realized there was no good book on women's sports that
you could assigned to an undergraduate. I mean this would
(15:02):
have been back two thousand and two thousand and one.
I mean there just there were some high level and
that was it. So I thought the best way to
fix that is to write a history of women's basketball,
because it's so great and so long. So I spent
several years trying to get someone else to write that
book because I didn't want to write it. But then
one day it just struck me out of the blue,
(15:25):
Susan and I could write that book together.
Speaker 2 (15:28):
You were looking across the street. She was hanging up.
Speaker 1 (15:31):
Her laundry on an old school drawing line, and you
were like, boom, yeah, no.
Speaker 2 (15:36):
It reminds me of the quote.
Speaker 1 (15:38):
I think it's like, make a decision, and the universe
will conspire to make it happen. So you were trying
to make that decision and the universe put Susan directly
in your view, and you were like, there.
Speaker 4 (15:50):
It is exactly there it was.
Speaker 1 (15:53):
Susan, how did you feel when your next door neighbor
asked you to write a book?
Speaker 3 (15:59):
Well, I was so excited about this possibility because I
love women's basketball, that I just kind of paused and
looked at her and said, I'm like too excited about this,
So I need to walk cross the street and sleep
on it and I'll let you know in the morning.
And so that's exactly what I did, and very early
(16:21):
the next morning, I talked to her and said, let's
get a planned.
Speaker 2 (16:26):
Let's do it.
Speaker 3 (16:27):
Yeah, I mean amazing, yeah, And we did it.
Speaker 1 (16:32):
So you're both qualified to write a book, which makes
it nice if you know that your neighbor can bring
the kind of skills necessary.
Speaker 2 (16:37):
And I want to talk about.
Speaker 1 (16:38):
That quickly before we get to the book, because Susan
first female editor of The tar Heel, and you spent
time at newspapers at a time when there weren't a
lot of women in the sports section. What stands out
to you about that time and did you feel like
you had to have another particular set of skills beyond
being a writer to manage and survive and thrive.
Speaker 3 (16:56):
Then I think you just really had to have the person,
passion and commitment to do it. There wasn't a lot
of at a girls being passed out to any of
us that were trying to break through. You know. When
I was in college, I was often, you know, waiting
outside the locker room and begging guys to go in
(17:16):
there and get quotes from players. They wouldn't let me in.
They were only a handful of us trying to cover
things here in North Carolina at the time, you know.
And when I went to the newspapers, you know, I
was I was not the first person woman but at
either the Chot Observer or the Miami Herald. But at
(17:36):
the time that I went there, I was the only one.
And it was still the seventies and it was hard
to get people really interested in women's sports. So, I mean,
that's just been a problem that we charted with basketball
in the book.
Speaker 1 (17:56):
Yeah, Pamily, You've written a number of other books, including
the North Carolina Women's Basketball one I mentioned, but also
American Sports Teaching US History through sports. Over the course
of your career, as you've tried to figure out what
your next big topic might be, what has pushed you
towards the book? What has pushed you toward this is
just an article versus this is something I want to
(18:18):
dive deeply into.
Speaker 4 (18:20):
Well, I think part of it is really I am
not actually an academic. I mean I have a PhD.
But okayma independently.
Speaker 1 (18:28):
Come on, you are an academic if you have a pafd.
Speaker 4 (18:31):
Well, academic. It's not necessarily the most positive words. Sometimes so,
especially when they talk about your writing, there's like, oh,
it's very academic. That is not fair, not a compliment.
But in any case, the way books come to me,
like this women's basketball book, I was like, well, this
needs to happen. This needs to be done by biography
(18:54):
of or Washington to a degree, this needs to be done.
This woman needs to have biography to cement her place.
And she was the first great national black female athletic star.
She's this extraordinary person that people need to know about,
so needs to be done. That's kind of what I
(19:16):
look for. Of course, that's to be interesting. Yeah, I
could write something boring just because it needs to be well.
Speaker 1 (19:21):
Boring probably doesn't need to be done quite so often
as it is really exciting.
Speaker 2 (19:25):
Need to know So let's talk about your book.
Speaker 1 (19:28):
Tackling the history of women's sports is a big task.
Whittling it down to the most compelling, most important, most meaningful,
most change making moments must have been difficult. So, Susan,
you mentioned your first response is, yes, I'll write the book.
Let's map it out, let's plan it out. What was
that first step to understanding what you wanted to get
across with the book and what stories you wanted to
(19:48):
make sure you're told.
Speaker 3 (19:50):
Well, I think the first thing was to look at
where our strengths lay. And Sam, given her background and
her background in the.
Speaker 4 (20:01):
End academic, well it's hurting.
Speaker 3 (20:04):
At this time. Yeah, she knew where there was a
lot of material on this history of women's basketball going
back to eighteen ninety two when the game started. She
knew where it was, and she thought, well, Susan's been
covering women's sports since the seventies and I was a
(20:30):
pretty title nine baby, and I sort of went through
the difficulties there and came forward that I know the
more modern stuff. So we kind of talked about the
lay of the land as it were, as to where
we could both have our greatest strengths, and then we
also knew we had to decide how we're going to
(20:52):
tell it, what you know, and how we were going
to work together. The beauty of it was we're both
former journalist. I am worked at newspapers. I worked at newspapers.
We had a similar idea about how to tell stories,
and I cannot tell you how that just simplified matters
so much. And then I think as we talked about
(21:15):
the material, we started honing our homing in on the stories.
Speaker 1 (21:20):
Yeah, it's hard for me to imagine, as someone who
just wrote my first book, the idea of having to
have a co author with the same voice. I do
have a co author, but it's his life story, so
he just had to tell me the story.
Speaker 2 (21:32):
I had to turn it into book for him.
Speaker 1 (21:34):
But writing together and like you said, having the same
approach to reporting and telling a story super super important. Pamela,
I'd love to hear a couple of standout selections from
the book you can share with our listeners to entice
them to buy the whole thing.
Speaker 2 (21:48):
Because it is comprehensive.
Speaker 1 (21:50):
I was so impressed by the research that you did
and the way you made it really interesting to read
about things you know, Like you said, dating really far back.
Speaker 2 (21:58):
So what's the story that's ends out to you.
Speaker 4 (22:01):
Well, I love the story of the young women who
started playing basketball in the nineteen twenties. This was a
moment when high schools were being built and sports was
coming to high schools, and high schools were you know,
boys and girls, and so all of a sudden, these
young women had access to playing sports, generally basketball because
(22:25):
I was considered the you know, appropriate sport for young women.
And also a lot of rural schools, I mean boys
was basketball too, because they didn't have enough boys for
a football team. So basketball was the thing. And these
young women, this is something they've never been able to
do before, and the way they talk about it is
so interesting. I'll just take a couple of examples from Charlotte.
(22:47):
There was a group of young women who started the
team at Central High School, which is Charlotte's main white
high school. And she said, well, we went up to
the you know, just to the principal and said were
you were your basketb that we're in. And then in
the in the yearbook, you see written under the picture
it says man's age has been here to four, but
(23:11):
now woman's age is coming in in politics and in athletics.
Speaker 1 (23:16):
I can't decide if I'm excited or disappointed and depressed
by that. It feels like we've been saying that for
quite a long time and we have yet to make
it fully realized.
Speaker 4 (23:24):
Well, it's true, they had suffrage had just passed, so
it was a moment of grade seven. But then the
other piece, and this is a young woman. About three
years later, I interviewed her when she was in her eighties,
and one of the first things she did they had
she had a picture of the team and she points
to it and she says, we rolled out. You see
(23:47):
how we did it, And what that meant was they
had short gloomers and they had rolled their stockings down
below their knees, and that was just again daring and
challenging the rules. And seventy years later she remembered that
vividly and.
Speaker 1 (24:03):
Was very Yeah, I love the photos from those early
days because it is this ridiculous to imagine trying to
play basketball in a poofy skirt. And also some of
the reporting. One of the games was described as very
exciting despite the low score, and I'm like, oh, what
kind of low score?
Speaker 2 (24:20):
Two to one? Two to one.
Speaker 1 (24:22):
It was with the vital score of the game, so
the scoring was a little different as.
Speaker 2 (24:27):
You can tell.
Speaker 4 (24:27):
Yeah, it was one point at a time.
Speaker 1 (24:29):
Amazing to imagine that there was a high excitement to
the game despite only a few baskets being made.
Speaker 3 (24:35):
It speaks to how they tried to keep the game
fairly sedate. Women were itching to play, as Pam described,
and they needed something to do, but then they put
all these constraints on them. Yeah, not just their clothes,
which were the close of the day, but the rules
of the game and what they could and couldn't do,
(24:57):
and oh it was. It was just kind of an nightmare.
Speaker 2 (25:00):
For a very long time.
Speaker 1 (25:01):
Women's basketball was half court, no dribbling, and six people
to a side. So it wasn't really the basketball that
we think of, But it would be delightful to play
that if you had been given nothing else. And that
was one of the things that stood out to me
from that section of the book is I had never
really considered the idea that basketball came along after sports
that men were playing, that they never would have allowed
(25:23):
women to things like football, things that had really physical play.
And even if it was a different form of basketball,
where you're standing and not dribbling and not creating contact,
it still was a game that they were excited to
have the chance to play. Susan, what's a segment of
the book or a story from the book that really
stands out to you when.
Speaker 3 (25:41):
I think back on Title nine, I think back on
how we had some coaches that were able to step
in when everything was new with that wall, and where
did they come from? Where they came from was really
a bleak period in women's basketball. There was not hardly
(26:05):
any of it across the country except in small towns
and rural areas. And a lot of the women that
played that came out of those areas. They loved it
just as much as all these other women. And so
then at Title nine and a little before, some of
them got involved in these fledgling programs. And k Yal
at NC State is a perfect example. She graduated high
(26:29):
school in nineteen sixty, she left basketball behind. She didn't
think about it, there wasn't an option. And then later
she had her teaching degree, she wants to get a job.
She goes to the high school not too far from
her house, just maybe thirty minutes away, and the guy
remembered what a high school star she was in her town,
(26:54):
and he said, well, I will give you a job
if you will be my girls' basketball coach. Said well,
I didn't train to be a basketball coach. He said,
I don't care, and she said, well I want the job,
I'll do it. And as soon as she did, she
got into it. She absolutely loved it, and she realized
that she all the way through college when she was
(27:16):
training to be a teacher, she had just kind of
felt like something was really missing, and it was that
passion for the game, having that outlet, and so it
rekindled that. And there are other women like that. Not
exactly Ka's story, but Kay, as you know, went on
to be a great coach at NC.
Speaker 1 (27:34):
State and has left a lasting legacy in a number
of ways for sure.
Speaker 4 (27:39):
And another great coach, Vivian Stringer. Her high school didn't
have a basketball team, and to get near to the
games because she would play like on the playground with
all the old boys, she had to become a cheerleader.
That was that was it for her, and then she
moved from that to her fabulous coaching career. But there
(28:02):
was no girl sports at her at her.
Speaker 2 (28:05):
School, wild to imagine that.
Speaker 1 (28:06):
I was thinking, I wished I had read your book
before the interview I did with Muffett mcgron, Tara Vanderveer,
because at this point, Tara's career is so legendary. There
is so much to ask her about from her years
at Stanford, and I didn't even dive deep enough to
understand that she also came from a very different time
before she had the opportunity to become the Hall of
(28:27):
Famer that she has.
Speaker 2 (28:27):
Can you speak to that, Pamela.
Speaker 4 (28:29):
Well, absolutely. I mean again, you be growing up mostly
the late fifties to the sixties, and they just won
any sports, you know. I think she says in the
book that then at that time a lot of boys
wouldn't play with girls either. I think said she saved
her money, went out and got the best basketball she
could find, and if the boys wanted to play with
(28:51):
that basketball, they'd have to play with her. I mean,
you can see how you develop this kind of determination.
Because she loved the game. She played as much as
she could. She tried to play a little bit in college,
but it was that very beginning. But she had to
take that passion. She had to make her own way
basically as opposed to now, where at least there's some
(29:13):
idea of how you might do it.
Speaker 1 (29:15):
It's pretty remarkable to think about how recent that is.
That this is a coach that just retired a couple
of years ago, but when she started out, that was
still the state of the game for women. And she
even mentioned in our interview and was pretty effusive and
passionate about not wanting the love of the game part
of it to be lost to nil and the modernization
(29:36):
and professionalization of the college game.
Speaker 2 (29:38):
And you could tell when.
Speaker 1 (29:39):
She spoke to it that like it really meant something
when she said, I was dying for every chance an
opportunity I had to get on a court, whether paid
or unpaid, whether.
Speaker 2 (29:49):
Anyone was watching or not. It was just about basketball.
Speaker 1 (29:52):
And while some people might turn up their nose at
older folks who seem critical or at least have some
sort of judgment about the new look of collegiate sports,
I understand it when you phrase it that way. I
get that there needs to be a balance of the two.
And it's great to also reward these players for their skills.
Speaker 2 (30:09):
But there is.
Speaker 1 (30:09):
Something very romantic and true and pure about the way
the women who started the game sow it because they
had no choice but to be so passionate as to
muscle their way in to the opportunities that they got.
Do you have one or two more stories from the
book you'd like to share, either one of you or both.
Speaker 3 (30:29):
Well, one thing that was pivotal in where we are
today was the nineteen ninety six Olympic team. And I
don't know how much you remember about that, per se,
but when we were you know, this was what six
seven years before we started the book. Well, I had
(30:51):
been going to women's final fours for years, and I
went to I went to all kinds of games. I
knew in the early nineties that things were really improving.
Cheryl Swoops came on the scene. She lit it up
in the Final four. And then just after that, the
NBA and the Olympic Committee and corporate sponsor said, we
(31:15):
really need to make a run at the ninety six Olympics.
And we had the women had only won the bronze
in ninety two, and they're like, we need the gold.
So they put money up and they put together a
team that went all around the country and overseas playing
the train. Essentially, they were unbelievable. Don Staley was on
(31:39):
that swoops, Rebecca Lobo, Gosh, I wish I could name
them all. They were just unbelievable, and I got to
see them win the gold in Atlanta, amaz It was
just and that whole arena was pulsating. I will never
forget it. And I thought, this has is a pivotal moment.
(32:03):
I think some stuff's going to come out of this.
And sure enough, you know, we got the ABL then
we got to WNDA, and the WNDA is still going
and going at great strength right now.
Speaker 1 (32:18):
Yeah, Pamela, she mentioned that that Olympics was just a
couple of years before you started the book. That's because
there was a two thousand and five edition, but you
updated it in twenty twenty five. So I'm curious about
the notable editions that made you feel like, oh, we've
got to re.
Speaker 2 (32:34):
Release this and talk about what's happening now.
Speaker 4 (32:38):
Well, that's exactly how we felt. And of course we
had it all organized before Caitlyn Clark burst upon the scene,
and you know, interest is jumped, but we could we
since there was more interest, you know, the game was
growing again. We thought those you know, like you said
about the nineteen twenties. We thought this was happening at
(32:58):
the beginning of the entry, you know, you thought, oh,
it's going to get better and better and better and better,
and we'll have our book and it'll be great. But
of course that's not what happened. But there were some
tremendous changes, particularly in the social activism that the WNBA
(33:18):
was taking on. I mean, it's something much more than
just oh, you know this had you know, day one
and then day one and the day one we were
really looking. The reason what brought us to it was
really thinking there's a lot more to be said both
about basketball and about how it and the players and
the game interact with society. So we have one section
(33:41):
on the way that that players overcame to a considerable
degree the homophobia that had kind of pervaded not just
society but also the organization to a degree, publicity agents,
all of that, and they just addressed it and dealt
with it. Then you both got people playing better, they're
(34:02):
more themselves, you know, Super talks about that that you
can just do better when you're not trying to hide something,
And so that happened, and then we look at the
Black Lives Matter work, which some people don't know started
with the Minnesota Lynx the sports and then it was
only when Colin kaepernet knelt sometime later that you know,
(34:26):
it really took off. But the WNBA then in their
wubble in twenty twenty, were very open and very focused
about what they thought should happen in society, the inequalities
they saw, and just speaking out on that. So there
was a lot of stuff to do.
Speaker 2 (34:45):
Yeah, there was a lot to add.
Speaker 1 (34:46):
It's been really rocket ship sort of growth the last
couple of years, which has been really exciting, but it
is always a little heartbreaking to me when I read
about or see reports of giant crowds and tons of
enthusiasm decades and decades and decades ago, and think to myself,
without the intentional suppression of this, if it had been supported,
(35:08):
invested in, and talked about the way we do men's
where would we be now. I'm grateful for where we are,
but also extremely pissed. I want to talk about the
way that the game keeps growing and the things that
you could be tempted to add to a future edition
of the book, and that includes the recent Women's Basketball
(35:29):
Hall of Fame inductions and the stories that you heard there,
the folks that were being honored there, Susan or Are
there a couple of memorable moments from that because you
two attended that together just a couple of weeks ago.
Speaker 3 (35:42):
Yeah, we did. It was great. We got an invitation
from the Hall of Fame to come and that was
so nice. We autographed books. People really seem to like it.
We were able to talk to all the inductees, plus
be there for the opening of the Pat Summit exhibit,
the new one. I mean, obviously they've had her in there,
(36:04):
but this is on a whole other level. And Pam
and I both noticed when we first gazed on that
on that exhibit, how they captured Pat with a quote
about just out working people and they did a front
on picture of her with the famous stare.
Speaker 2 (36:25):
You know, the low.
Speaker 3 (36:28):
It was. It was so that was such a great choice.
And then when you stepped inside it, you were just
enveloped with everything Pat. I mean, it was quite quite remarkable.
And uh, Pam, I'll let you pick up if you
want to add another story, there's plenty of them.
Speaker 4 (36:46):
It's one of the people it was just great to
see was Lucille Cavallos, who was so significant in this
early era that sometimes gets lost. I think, as we've
all seen, always assumed things have always been the way
they were. People don't necessarily think about how they got there.
So some people just think the NCAA was it. You know,
(37:09):
the records start there they were when they took over,
and I think nineteen eighty two they forget those earlier
years that there was a whole group of women who
worked against much more significant odds who built the game
up in Lucille Cavallos, who was at Queen's was one
of those early early pioneers. One of the things cool.
Lots of people came to support her because she just
(37:31):
you know, she was a mentor. She had all this
influence beyond just coaching. But Kathy Rush came from from
the Whaling team, you know, the coach that took Whale
into three straight championships in that earlier era. Because I
think she'd she'd worked with Lucille, she'd been a coach
or a player. I can't remember.
Speaker 3 (37:52):
She actually was a player under Lucille when Lucille was
at Westchester State, another early leader in the late sixties
seventies for women's basketball, and I believe Rush actually was
the coach of Ammacilotta.
Speaker 4 (38:08):
Oh I'm sorry, I said, Whalen, No, you're absolutely right.
Speaker 3 (38:10):
That's okay. Yeah, yeah, when they got those national titles,
and she might even still be there today, except that
when Title nine came in, they the school being very
small and the Catholic school, they didn't feel like they
had the money for scholarships and that was going to
be essential. And Kathy said, and she reiterated it to
(38:32):
me when I saw her, I met her when she
was there, that you know, they just couldn't do it.
So she stepped out at that time and just concentrated
on her basketball camps that she had for kids. And
so Lucille also was part of the first women's basketball
(38:52):
game at Madison Square Garden and that was really significant.
That was in the seventies. And she told the story
about how she was called and now I can't remember
who it was that had the foresight about this, but
somebody out outside the school and just said, would you
be interested in this? And this was like mid seventies,
(39:15):
and she just said, of course, I would love it.
So she and who was a team she played?
Speaker 4 (39:22):
Did she play at mac Queens.
Speaker 3 (39:25):
She was at Queen's but I can't remember right off
who her opponent was, but it was on television and
you know, massive crowd there, big crowd on television, and
then I think they actually played another game later. I
mean that was a I remember that I was in
college and just after college when that was happening. So
(39:47):
to me to meet the famous Lucille Cavallas was a thrill.
Speaker 1 (39:53):
Well, stories like that are why your book is so important,
Because when we hear about these WNBA games being moved
to NBA stadiums, we talk about the attendance, we talk
about the eyeballs. It's important to know the context that
there were games at MSG all those years ago, that
there were these moments and sparks for women's sport, and
YouTube documenting that and chronicling it and being a part
(40:15):
of the fandom and the support and the journalism around
this for so long is to be commended, and so
thank you for being on the forefront of this for
such a long time and for creating this incredible book
for those of us who came around later and want
to learn about what happened before us and get the
context and the nuance to really enjoy what we're watching now.
So thanks so much for the book, and thanks so much.
Speaker 2 (40:35):
For coming on.
Speaker 3 (40:35):
Oh you're welcome.
Speaker 1 (40:36):
Thanks, We got to take another break when we come back.
Are they goth or do they just play women's basketball?
Welcome back, slices. We love that you're listening, but we
want you to get in the game every day too.
So here's our good game play of the day. Go
(40:58):
get Pamela and Susan's book, Shattering the Glass, The remarkable
History of women's Basketball. There's so much more in the
book that we didn't get to talk about, and it's
the kind of context in history we're always preaching on
this show, stuff that'll make you appreciate the current moment
in women's hoops even more. We always love to hear
from you, too, so hit us up on email good
game at Wondermedia network dot com or leave us a
voicemail at eight seven two two four fifty seventy and
(41:20):
don't forget to subscribe, rate and review. Come on, scroll down,
give us five stars, tell us you love us.
Speaker 2 (41:27):
It's really easy.
Speaker 1 (41:28):
Promise watch goth basketball player Kaitlyn Cunningham aka Caitlin Dark
aka Deathcab for Kaitlin aka Backboard Confessional, rating ten out.
Speaker 2 (41:38):
Of ten shades of black.
Speaker 1 (41:39):
In Every Game Day Makeup Book review, Australian basketball player
Kaitlyn Cunningham set the Internet on fire with their goth makeup,
tattoos and just general emo vibes. Caitlin Rock's heavy eyeliner
and eyeshadow on the court for the Rockhampton Cyclones of
the Australian NBL one East League. Not only do they
ball out boy on the court, they're in a queer
(42:00):
pop punk band and model on the side as well,
and my favorite part of the story. In a TikTok video,
talking about their sudden fame, Cunningham said, the comments in
their videos and posts have been all positive, with tons
of folks showing love for their unique and badass look.
And this is why I love women's sports. I've said
it once, They'll say it again. This is the good place.
(42:21):
Now it's your turn, y'all, rate and review, Thanks for listening,
See you tomorrow. Good game, Susan, good game, Pamela. You
anyone still voting for known sex harassers and pieces of shit?
To quote New York City Comptroller Brad Lander, good gin riddance.
Speaker 2 (42:36):
Andrew Cuomo.
Speaker 1 (42:38):
Good Game with Sarah Spain is an iHeart women's sports
production in partnership with Deep Blue Sports and Entertainment.
Speaker 2 (42:44):
You could find us on the.
Speaker 1 (42:45):
iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Production by Wonder Media Network, our producers are Alex Azzie
and Misha Jones. Our executive producers are Christina Everett, Jesse Katz,
Jenny Kaplan and Emily Rudder. Our editors are Emily Rutter,
Brittany Martinez, Grace Lynch and Gianna Palmer. Are Associate producer
is Lucy Jones and I'm Your Host Sarah Spain
Host
Sarah Spain
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