June 18, 2025 • 39 mins
Sports Illustrated women’s sports staff writer Emma Baccellieri joins Sarah to talk about her SI cover story on the Indiana Fever and their accelerated timeline in search of a title, why she’d love to write a long form profile of Minnesota Lynx coach Cheryl Reeve, the women’s basketball book she’s working on with friend of the show Jordan Robinson, and her soda Substack side-quest.
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Read Emma’s Sports Illustrated cover story on the Indiana Fever here
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Good Game with Sarah Spain, where I'm in
Canada for the espnW summit and trying my hardest to
say Toronto without the second te Toronto just feels weird.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Man.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
It's Wednesday, June eighteenth, and on today's show you'll hear
my conversation with Sports Illustrated Women's sports staff writer Emma Bachelari.
We talk about her SI cover story on the Indiana
Fever and the franchise is sped up timeline in search
of a title, why she'd love to write a long
form profile on Links coach Cheryl Reeve, the women's basketball
book she's working on with friend of the show Jordan Robinson,
(00:32):
and her Soda substack side quest. Plus, the NWSL gets
a little more international. We remember a long distance running
legend and two Hoopers show the utmost respect for each
other's games, while a third takes it one step too far.
It's all coming up right after this. Back, y'all, here's
(01:00):
what you need to know today in footy news, the
Washington Spirit are welcoming the first ever Italian player to
the NWSL after winning the Serie A league with club
side Juventus. Twenty five year old forward Sofia can Torre
will join the DC based club Cantory, not thirteen goals
and six assists across all competitions with Juventus this past season,
(01:22):
and new Spirit head coach Adrian Gonzalez, the former DC
assistant who officially begins his new head role today, is
excited to have her on the roster, he told the
Athletic Quote. Sofia is an important signing for this Spirit
team as we continue to build up our roster to
compete for trophies. Her extensive experience in the Italian leagues
and exceptional talent in the attacking third will help add
(01:42):
a new layer for the Spirit moving forward end quote.
Can Torre has also got international experience. She's suited up
thirty six times for Italy, scoring five goals. Washington is
currently fourth in the NWSL standings and hoping that Kentry
can help close the eight point gap between the Spirit
and the first place Kansas City. Current in running news,
we're sad to announce that Nina Cusick, a longtime advocate
(02:04):
for women in long distance running, passed away last week
at the age of eighty six. Cusick was a pioneer
in many ways. She ran the Boston Marathon four times
between nineteen sixty eight and seventy one before women were
officially allowed to race. Then, due to the pressure, she
and others applied, the marathon added a women's division for
the first time, and in nineteen seventy two, Cusick raced
in it and won an inductee into the Long Distance
(02:26):
Running Hall of Fame in nineteen ninety nine. Cusick ran
more than eighty marathons in her lifetime. She also set
the American record for the fifty mile run in nineteen
seventy seven and won the Empire State Building Run up
three straight times from nineteen seventy nine to eighty one.
Catherine Switzer, the first woman to run the Boston Marathon
as an official competitor in nineteen sixty seven before there
(02:47):
was a spot on the race's sign up form for gender,
summed up Cusick's influence to the AP, saying quote, Nina
was not only a champion runner, but she was instrumental
in the official acceptance of women and distance running because
she did years of time work of changing rules, regulations,
and submitting medical evidence to prove women's capability.
Speaker 3 (03:06):
End quote. We hear at good game.
Speaker 1 (03:07):
We'll continue to remember Nina Cusick as an icon in
women's sports to hoops. Only one game on the WNBA
slate tonight, so no need for multiple screens. The Phoenix
Merkury Pay visits the Connecticut Sun Out in Uncasville at
seven pm Eastern. Catch that one streaming live on WNBA
League Pass. And in softball, we've got an athlete unlimited
Softball League doubleheader come in your way tonight starting at
(03:30):
seven pm Eastern. It's the Bandits versus the Talons at
Wilkins Stadium in Wichita, Kansas, followed by the Blaze against
the Volts at nine thirty Eastern.
Speaker 3 (03:39):
If you're in the area, get there. It's another single
admission doubleheader, which means it's very easy on the pockets.
If you're not in Kansas, you can watch the seven
pm game on ESPN two and the nine to thirty
contest on MLB dot Com, MLBtv, and FanDuel Sports Network.
We got to take a quick break when we come
back in sports, with Emma Bachelari joining us now.
Speaker 1 (04:14):
She's a staff writer who focuses on women's sports and
baseball for Sports Illustrated and Soda for her sub stack,
The Soda Fountain a member of the Baseball Writers Association
of America. She previously wrote for Baseball Prospectus and Deadspin,
and has appeared on BBC News, PBS News Hour, and
MLB Network. A Duke grad food lover, expert, traveler, Amtrak evangelist,
(04:34):
and person who knows that perfect days are found in Chicago.
It's Emma Bachelari. Hi, Emma, that is quite the intro.
You clearly scoped out the Instagram. I appreciate it.
Speaker 4 (04:45):
That was great.
Speaker 3 (04:46):
Yeah, I want to take that Amtrak trip.
Speaker 1 (04:48):
It looked amazing and I was so appreciative that you
found the perfect day.
Speaker 3 (04:51):
And of course that day was in Chicago. Duh.
Speaker 2 (04:54):
Yes, that is one of my best friends from college
lives in Chicago and I recently had a great day
with her. But yes, anyone who's looking for a way
to get around the country. I spent three weeks on
Amtrak and could fill its own podcast with that. I
truly loved it. So yes, go take the train.
Speaker 1 (05:10):
I love a good train ride, and I really resent
the creators of American travel who prioritized cars over public
squares and trains. But that's a conversation for another time. Actually,
it's a conversation for now in this sense, because I
saw you were just recently in Brussels and I've never been,
So instead of turning this into a full travel pod,
we'll limit it to just one must do in Brussels.
Speaker 2 (05:33):
Obviously drink beer, but beyond that too, not to over
index on trains, but they have this crazy train museum
called train World in Brussels, which had a really fun
train simulator, and it's especially in Europe. The history of
trains are really like the history of the continent in
so many ways. And I was with one of my
friends who does not care about trains the way I do,
(05:53):
and train World was still the highlight of her Brussels
s trip, like kind of beer and muscles aside. So yes,
go to Brussels, drink some beer, and then go to
the train.
Speaker 3 (06:01):
Museum, Beer, muscles, train World. Got it. I'm on it.
Let's talk about.
Speaker 1 (06:06):
Your sports writing, because you did a great SI cover
story on the Indiana fever, and this was a topic
ripe for discussion. New coach, new roster, new president, new
general manager, and a new timeline for a team that
realized after Caitlin Clark's arrival that they wanted to take
advantage of every single minute she played, every game they
had her in uniform, and every opportunity to win with her.
Speaker 3 (06:28):
So let's start there.
Speaker 1 (06:29):
What did you learn about the Fever's timeline from dropping
in and talking to all their big pieces.
Speaker 2 (06:35):
Yeah, this was really interesting to me from AFAR over
the winter, just because you know, everyone has been talking
so much about this big reset that we're going to
see in twenty twenty six, when you know you have
free agency opening up, you're going to have a new
CBA ideally potentially a ton of player movement, and so
many teams were kind of in like weight and see
mode and the fact that the Fever so clearly were
(06:58):
not was fascinating to me. And I think the biggest
thing that came through in all of the conversations I
had with you know, Kelly Cross, Coop and Ambercox and
Steph White, all of these new pieces that they've brought
in on the administration and coaching side, was how much
they really wanted to build a true contender this year.
(07:19):
That the idea wasn't like, oh, like make it a
little further in the playoffs and see how it goes,
but to do everything you can to potentially win it
all this year, which, like as we've seen already, that's
a hard thing to do. To get that many new
pieces to gel. It's going to take time. It's not
easy to say you have a one year window, let's
go and take it. But to use this year both
(07:39):
as a chance to try to win it all and
to set the groundwork to then build something even bigger
and greater in twenty twenty six and ideally beyond, which
is a tricky thing to do, right, to have a
window that is as open as you can get it
now and also potentially in the years to come, to
kind of have that be not just you're throwing open
the door, but also you're trying to build for the
future at the same time time. But I think they
(08:01):
did about as create a job as you can do
of getting those pieces in And then, of course the
bigger question is how do you integrate them? Incorporate them,
and that is not always easy. But yeah, it was
interesting to work on to see exactly how they went
about trying to pull that and all of that in
(08:22):
screen for the right personalities, et cetera. And so yeah,
it was fun to work on.
Speaker 1 (08:26):
Yeah, and obviously this is a team that is in
the position it's in with two of its stars, Caitlin
Clark and Eleiah Boston because they were the worst of
the worst, because they got to have number one picks.
Those players are actually signed through and beyond this season,
which is rare to have two stars that you're having
(08:47):
the rights to beyond this massive transition time in the league.
We've seen across a number of teams we've looked at
that they literally have one player sometimes none, that are
actually signed beyond this season. And so to know that
they can build around those two when they're trying to
attract free agents during this what we expect to be
this big free agent frenzy in the off season is
(09:08):
great for them, but they need to prove this season
essentially that they're a different franchise than the one that
has gotten them to the point where they're drafting back
to back number one overall picks, and that's why this
season was so important to them. We've seen a lot
of coverage of Eliah Boston and Caitlin Clark's relationship.
Speaker 3 (09:26):
We see a lot of cute little clips of them.
Speaker 1 (09:28):
What else did you notice when you were covering this
team and going to report on this team about the
interaction between the players and which players felt like the
vocal leaders, which players felt like they led just with behavior.
Speaker 3 (09:39):
What did you notice?
Speaker 2 (09:41):
I think Kelsey Mitchell is such an important piece here,
which obviously people who watch the team know, but I
really think it can't be overstated how much she does
for this group. That she was the one piece who
has really stuck through all of those rough years when
they were losing to get those number one picks. It was,
you know, they're in the trend, just through the worst
of it, and then decided to stay. Twice She's resigned
(10:03):
with them, once a couple of years ago and then
once this off season. And hearing how both Kitlyn Leah
Lexiehill all talk about her, you know, there are other
newer veterans on this team, but I really think Kelsey
Mitchell is She's not like a super over the top
vocal leader, but they just respect her so much. She
(10:24):
has such an important part to play here on and
off the floor. And I think obviously talking about the
chemistry that you see between Kitlin Clark and Aliah Boston,
that's huge, but that also really frees up Kelsey Mitchell
at the two to do, which she does, and she
had the best season of her career last year. Has
shown flashes with that again, like when everything is clicking here.
She's really such a leader here who's so important to
(10:47):
what they do. Obviously, Kitlyn is the point guard, that's
like a natural. She also is a much more vocal, natural,
outgoing leader in a lot of ways that I think
you see on the floor all the time and off
the floor when she was injured yelling on the bench.
But I think it really in a lot of ways,
Kelsey Mitchell is kind of the heartbeat of this group
and that she just has such an important part to
(11:08):
play here in every facet of her job.
Speaker 1 (11:11):
I want to hear about Natasha Howard and Dwana Bonner.
Those are two really big time, successful veteran players to
add to the mix. There could be a conflict in
terms of who's the alpha, who's the big dog, who's
the one who wants to impart wisdom? When you've got
a Caitlin Clark who's only in her second year but
obviously has her own solar system Essentially, how does it
(11:33):
seemed to work out so far with those two veterans
coming in?
Speaker 2 (11:37):
Yeah, I mean I think it's been a little bit
tricky on the floor. There's certainly been an adjustment period.
I think you know, anyone who's watching this team has
seen do Wanna Bonner started in the starting lineup, and
then it has been coming off the bench more recently.
Obviously they've had some injury struggles across the board that
made them shuffle some things. But I think both of
these players were kind of screened coming in here for recognizing,
(11:59):
like this is an important veteran leadership position, it is
not necessarily your typical one, and just so much about
this roster, about the hubbub that exists around this roster,
is so different than certainly anything else you're seeing in
the w But I think you can make the case
anything else you're seeing in sports right now in terms
of the gravity of one star like that, and how
(12:22):
you navigate that as a team where everyone has a
role to play, and recognizing that the noise is so loud,
but to some extent it's just noise. They were screened
for knowing, like you are going to have to adjust
to some different things here that weren't the case in
other environments, And certainly both of them are accustomed to
playing with stars don't want to. Bonnor was in Phoenix
(12:42):
with DT forever. They know what that's like. But just
realizing like this is a different phase of your career.
That was something dB had talked about a lot of
you know, she realizes these are her last few years.
She wants something different, that she feels like she has
something to give back and this is a chance to
do that. That was something both of them talked about,
(13:03):
but especially do Wanna Bonner and that maybe means your
role shifts on the floor. That means maybe you're sharing
different aspects of that with each other, with other vets,
but basically just knowing They had long conversations with Kelly
Cross cop with Amber Cox, and Kelly Cross knows Natasha
Howard very well. She had drafted her originally in Indiana,
(13:24):
and Amber Cox had worked with Dowanna Bonner that even
though there's so much that's new here, they really leaned
on pre existing relationships and so it's certainly not an
easy thing to balance in terms of being in this
particular spotlight. But they really had a lot of conversations
about it ahead of time in terms of finding like
are these the right personalities to walk that line that
they're going to have to walk.
Speaker 1 (13:44):
Yeah, speaking of that was so interesting to read write
Thompson's story about Caitlin Clark in her final year at Iowa,
and in particular how much work had to be done
behind the scenes by her coaching staff and the rest
of the team staff to help her better understand how
her body language, her frustration, her approach to teammates that
(14:09):
let her down by not catching a great pass or
finishing a shot would impact the team at large. And
it feels like, obviously that's a work in progress for
Caitlyn and always will be. If you're looking real hard,
you can still find those moments in a game when
she's very clear in expressing her frustration. How is it
felt in this season with all these new teammates and
(14:30):
with this added pressure and expectation for this team to succeed.
How have you seen Caitlyn either evolve in that way
or still struggle in that way?
Speaker 2 (14:40):
I mean, I think the biggest thing is that we
had this extended stretch of her on the bench, which
is an extremely new role for her. She obviously wasn't
injured at all in college or in her rookie year
in the W and so I think for the most part,
seeing that was just really interesting. Of this is someone
who obviously is used to not just being a focal
point on the floor, but like playing to as close
(15:01):
to forty minutes as she can and having an offense
run through her where she's involved on every single play.
You have to step back and watch the game from
the bench, I think seeing the ways in which you
could try to involve herself in other ways. You heard
her talk about, like you literally see the game in
a different way, that was an advantage point she had
(15:21):
much experience from. I think in the long run, we're
going to see that potentially be something that helps her there.
Of just it's a different way to experience the game
of watching it, of watching your teammates, maybe picking up
on things that you don't see when you're on the
floor with them. You can see them better from the bench.
So I think we've seen some evolution there. I think obviously,
(15:43):
as you said, she's still this is her second year.
There's still clearly moments of frustration. There's still We just
saw this weekend and she had this insane game against
the Liberty and they handed them their first loss, and
there was this one sequence where like she's clearly on
a heater and like begging for the ball and didn't
get it, and like she's going to be frustrated. She's,
you know, competitive, obviously that's what makes her her.
Speaker 1 (16:04):
Honestly, it was probably best for her as that possession
still ended in a made basket for the fever.
Speaker 2 (16:09):
Ye.
Speaker 1 (16:09):
So in that moment, as frustrated as she might have
been of like how could you not keep coming back
to me? I'm so hot, it was also like, oh, okay, okay,
you guys can do it.
Speaker 3 (16:16):
In that moment, I know that I can leave it
up to my teammates too.
Speaker 2 (16:20):
Yeah. Completely, Just like that moment of frustration is going
to be there, But then you get the reminder. I
think that's important, And so I think it's certainly a
work in progress, and I'm interested to see as we
keep going how much that time of being injured and
observing and interacting with humans in a different way kind
of shapes how she's able to control that.
Speaker 1 (16:40):
You also profiled Caitlin when she was at Iowa. Can
you get a sense of how she really feels about
all this coverage, all this pressure, all this expectation, even
all the controversy. I think she's been pretty stoic in
her own way, and also at times has said I
don't really listen or watch or read, But then sometimes
it becomes clear that she does, just like any other humans,
(17:02):
sometimes engaged with what's being said about or around her.
Can you get a feel for beneath the surface, what
it really has been like for her to be the
center of focus now for a couple of years.
Speaker 2 (17:15):
Yeah. I mean, there are so many layers to a
star like that, in terms of the people they have
around them, the processes that you have to go through
to talk to someone like that, that it's hard to
say for sure. And I think that's a good thing
that she's been able to insulate herself to that degree
that it makes sense to tread carefully when you're really
(17:37):
kind of just entering this new space as a star
at that level. But one of the things that really
stood out to me about that trip to Iowa, which
was a magazine profile in September twenty twenty three, I
went down so a few months after the national championship
game against LSU, but before her senior season had started,
(17:57):
was just how completely self assured she was and how
it didn't exactly feel like media training. And I actually
had asked the iOS Idea at the time, like what
have you done here, Like this is a crazy amount
of like poise and confidence for a college athlete to
handle any question, But they said nothing, like she really
is just like this, and I was kind of inclined
(18:19):
to believe them, just because it really for you know,
a college athlete for a college student period, like thinking
about myself at twenty one or twenty two, my friends,
other college athletes I've interviewed in the years since, like
to just have that kind of complete self assuredness of
being able to answer anything, to kind of know what
(18:39):
you're working with, to be so confident in who you
are and what you want, Like it just really was
a level of I'm not sure if poise is the
right word, and I'm not sure if confidence is either,
but kind of a mix of them. That was really
striking to me, And that like I think you've seen
Carrie through and I think like some people are just
(19:01):
made to handle that. That doesn't mean that it's not
incredibly hard to handle it sometimes, and I think certainly
like we've seen glimpses of that in the right Thompson profile.
There were moments where she had got a sense of
how hard it could be. At some points, I think
in certain moments in her rookie year, you could see
like frustration with being that singular of a focus rather
(19:22):
than it being more diffused across the team. Certainly last
year brought challenges in terms of losing that were new
to her, But I think in general, this is just
someone who is very confident in what she can do,
is very confident in herself. I think it's been nice
to see a little bit more of her personality, which
is super competitive and intense and a lot of fun
(19:43):
come out this year. This was something we did, you know,
with the cover shoot. We also had a video that
went with that of the teammates interacting and quizzing each
other and like her getting really into that was a
lot of fun to watch. Yeah, So yeah, that's kind
of I think from the thirty thousand foot view what
I've seen from she's.
Speaker 1 (20:01):
Very funny, and a lot of times the humor comes
out in those competitive moments. I remember I mentioned on
the show a couple months ago that I had this
incredible opportunity to sit with David Letterman on a zoom
for like ninety minutes and just tell him ahead of
his interview with her the things that I thought would
be really important to make sure he asked her or
addressed in the conversation, and things that I would want
(20:22):
to know about her, things I thought fans would want
to know about her. And one of them that I
said was like, I think she's pretty funny, but we don't.
Speaker 3 (20:28):
Get to see it that much.
Speaker 1 (20:29):
So try to find a way to compete with her
at stuff so that we get that to come out
and that she loosens up. Because it feels like her
truest self is just when she's ballin, whether that's literally
basketball or any other thing.
Speaker 3 (20:42):
And so yeah, I completely agree on that.
Speaker 1 (20:43):
I also think her sort of natural composure and poise
is partly how she's able to not only deal with
the pressure of the intense focus on her but also
on the court, like the reason that she can be
a clutch shooter in those insane moments and be as
dialed and as she is. Probably this like preternatural quality
that can't be taught so much as just is a
(21:05):
part of the reason that she's as great as she is.
You told this great fever story. Is there another story
you most want to tell next in the W?
Speaker 2 (21:14):
Oh this isn't as fun, but one I have been
thinking about a lot this year is refereeing, which obviously,
across all sports, people are going to hate the refs.
I don't think the ideal situation here would be for
everyone to be like, refereeing is amazing and we love it,
because that's never going to happen, and if it is,
probably you have different problems. But the variety of complaints
(21:36):
we've seen against refs, but certainly last year and then
this year we just saw Kelsey Plumb really go at
the refs. We've seen a variety of coaches and players
call it out, and I'm curious as the league gets bigger,
is under more scrutiny kind of the systems of refereeing.
So when we talk about referee pay, referee recruitment, replay
(21:57):
review as something that is done literally by the refs
on the court rather than by an off site replay
review center like is done in the NBA, that's really
interesting to me. And I do wonder if we're starting
to hit a kind of breaking point for the w
to be at a spot where it needs to reevaluate
some of those systems just in terms of having the
(22:17):
best people on the floor with the resources they need
to do the best job all the time.
Speaker 3 (22:23):
I think that's a very worthy story.
Speaker 1 (22:24):
I think you're right there will always be complaints, but
at some point there's a tipping point for whether it
affects the product so much so that people are less
interested or less trustworthy, or even in terms of things
that aren't a priority but are certain a reality, which
is gambling and things like that. You need to make
sure people really think that you're operating at the highest level.
Speaker 3 (22:45):
And it does affect also.
Speaker 1 (22:45):
The value of what you believe you're watching if it
doesn't seem completely professional.
Speaker 3 (22:50):
So all right, I endorse that story.
Speaker 1 (22:52):
What about a player who you think you'd like to
do a long form profile on or get to know better.
Speaker 2 (22:58):
I'm going to flip this and go with a coach
instead of a player. That's okay, Cheryl Reeve. It just
is so interesting to me the way we've seen kind
of really a full turnover of coaching in the last
couple of years, and that Cheryl Reeve is still here,
has been here for so long and has seen the
league through so much but also is still doing such
(23:19):
a fantastic job that I think obviously the Links are
maybe my championship pick right now. I'm sure the Liberty
will give them a run for their money. But watching
what she's done with this team that necessarily wasn't built
to contend last year, and the way that she's evolved
as a coach, the way that her style has evolved
(23:39):
while still feeling very much like the same Cheryl Reeve
who led those Mayam War teams, is just really interesting
to me to have a figure that has stayed in
place as the league has changed so much around her,
as her team has changed so much, as the type
of star she works with has changed, and I think
also as someone who is really like she's always been
(24:00):
such a vocal presence in terms of the values of
the league and what it stands for and what it
means to speak up about that, you know, at a
time when that wasn't as popular or as easy, and
the fact that she's still doing that, it just I
think she's a fascinating person. She's always been a great quote,
and so she is the one I think I'd want
to spend more time with.
Speaker 3 (24:20):
Yeah, completely agree.
Speaker 1 (24:21):
Also, I think really interesting to see over the next
year to what it means for the links to change
ownership Mark Laura and Alex Rodriguez taking over. That's been
a pretty fraught transition from the current owner, Glenn Taylor,
and you always hope that there will be a continued
investment in care for a team when there's new owners
(24:43):
coming in, but it's always difficult when the owners are
primarily focused on the NBA team that they want to buy,
and along with it comes a WNBA team. So we'll
be really interesting to see how she also and the
team fair under that transition and in that new ownership.
I want to cover the coverage a little bit because
you do a lot of baseball coverage. How different does
(25:06):
that feel logistically for you? Before we even get to
the athletes, but as far as resources and access, interacting
with the PR staff and the comms folks, how different
is it when you're going to cover MLB for the
day versus WNBA.
Speaker 2 (25:23):
Very different in some ways and very similar in others,
I think, And it was a huge adjustment winning first
started doing more w coverage just because I mean, MLB
I think has the best access among men's professional sports too,
Like It's long been known for that the BBWA is
(25:43):
one of the strongest Greaters associations in sports media, and
because of that, they have really good access compared to
lots of other sports. And so I was really used
to a system where it's every single day everything is
open that there are certainly plenty of players who don't
want to talk or won't talk on a specific day,
(26:04):
but you can go up to a guy and say, hey,
would you be interested in X y Z today, and
like it is between you and him if he can
say no totally, but like that it is not mediated
by the pr staff, that is not mediated by the team.
That is a conversation you can have every day because
the clubhouse is open before a first pitch, you can
hang out during batting practice, and then it's open afterward
(26:25):
and it has to be open for an hour in
both of those sessions, and it's totally open to everyone.
And that sets a standard for a lot of access
that is not really seen in other sports. And I
think the part that's the same is that it's built
on relationships and showing up and talking to people and
just like being open and honest about what you're trying
(26:48):
to do. And also like what players have to share,
which sometimes can be totally different than when you go
into something thinking you might write that's the same. But yeah,
it is an adjustment to have the system where you know.
The PR staffs in the W A lot of them
do a great job and are trying their best, but
they are much smaller. Some teams really only have one
person who's there on a daily basis, juggling a lot
(27:11):
with fewer resources. That's hard to adjust to you. Obviously,
the daily nature of baseball versus basketball is that is
going to be different no matter what. But the fact
that it is every day in baseball really gives you
a chance to build rapport and talk about silly things
and just like you know, build points by showing up
basically in a way that is different in basketball. And
(27:36):
I think you know, there are so many amazing stories
in the W and so many athletes like I would
love to be able to write more on and it
can be kind of frustrating when it feels like something
is super mediated by a PR staff who's maybe over attacks,
doesn't have the resources to do what they want to do.
Of like, I want to tell these stories and a
(27:57):
lot of times like players want to talk and want
to share it too, but they only have you know,
like a very short window when they're supposed to be
on the court during you know, either before a game
or even at a practice, and it's all mediated and
put into boxes. It can be harder to get to
a place to build those relationships, which is frustrating. And
I think there are lots of instances of like we
(28:20):
both want these stories told, Like can't we get on
the same team to make this happen, Like you have
to be a little more open and give people a
little more space to work in order to get that built.
And that's hard. But at the same time, like the
building box of it are the same, but it is
definitely you can tell fewer resources, fewer people. It's hard. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:41):
With baseball, it's a necessity for it to be daily
because there's a game every day, so every day there's
a new win or loss, or moment or play to
react to. And yet also they are so busy because
they have a game every day that it's kind of
a miracle that you have the kind of access that
you have.
Speaker 3 (28:56):
And so in the w there's got to be.
Speaker 1 (28:59):
A balance of fewer games and still enough access to
try to talk to the players, understanding that they don't
make the same money as MLB players. They deserve to
have balance in lives and everything else. But yeah, it
feels like there's this real push and pull right now
of the direction the W as a league wants to
go in and the resources and investment and changing coverage
(29:22):
that's happening.
Speaker 3 (29:23):
That's going to require.
Speaker 1 (29:24):
A change in staffing and resourcing for that side of
things too, because too often folks who want to give
the coverage aren't able to have the access to And
there are a lot of issues in the W and
in women's sports that aren't present in men's and that
includes things.
Speaker 3 (29:39):
Like we just saw.
Speaker 1 (29:41):
Reporter from OutKick, you know, interviewing Brittany Grinder about an incident.
We've seen reporters who are not operating in good faith
or don't seem to be there to get the honesty
of a story, but rather to spin something for a
certain kind of audience. And on the one hand, you
want to offer up that that kind of access is
(30:03):
just inevitable in sports, and that kind of coverage is
inevitable and you have to push through it. On the
other hand, it feels like there is a necessity for
some protection or care with these athletes as well because
of all the intersectional issues at play. How do you
feel about that? There's been conversations about just don't credential
those people, just don't give access to people if their
coverage in sight never seems to be actually doing any
(30:26):
meaningful work and is only coming in to stir up shit.
How do you feel about that approach to still credentialing
or deciding not to.
Speaker 2 (30:36):
Yeah, I also felt my stomach huring kind of watching
that video of OutKick with Britney Griner, And I think
this is mostly something I see as an issue of
the systems of PR and the resources they have that
do you have enough people to Like I don't think
this answer is necessarily auto rejecting credentials, but like talking
(30:58):
to people when you get a credential, work us, what
game are you looking to cover? Why is there something
we can help you with? Then maybe being able to
have a PR staff for present instagrums like that to
know when maybe something should be shut down like that's
in a lot of ways just as a matter of
having enough PR staff to be able to do that,
(31:21):
to be able to be in multiple places at once
because you have multiple people. That's kind of what I
see as the best way to go through this, that like,
it's never going to be perfect, that you know, but
you need to do as much as you can to
make sure that. I think you certainly can't guarantee positive coverage,
(31:44):
and you shouldn't, but I think you can do everything
you can to guarantee good faith coverage. And that is
a different question to me, and that, to me, is
mostly one of talking to people who are new level,
setting expectations and then being able to be physically and
for conversations that might be more difficult.
Speaker 1 (32:04):
I want to ask how Court Queen's is going. We've
had Jordan Robinson on the show. Are you guys still
in the process of writing Where are we at with
that book?
Speaker 2 (32:12):
We are almost done with our book. Yes, Jordan and
I have been putting together this photographic history of women's
basketball and we are in the last stages of like
design review, which is really fun and exciting, and yeah,
it's just been so cool to work on something that
takes such a broad look at the game from literally
(32:32):
eighteen eighty two to twenty twenty five and just really
fun to look at all these different stories that some
I had no idea about. Some have just so much
more depth to them than I realized. Just so much
that happened in the game, you know, before nineteen eighty six.
So yeah, we are almost done with this design review
and then it's mostly done.
Speaker 1 (32:52):
Congratulations. That's so exciting. We can't wait to see it
all right, last question for you. You do have a
sub stack called soda Fountain dot com. It's actually soda
dash Fountain dot com. I have three questions for you.
Number one, the best soda you've ever had?
Speaker 2 (33:07):
Oh, a diet coke from McDonald's on a really hot day.
That is nothing touches that. Lots of like fun niche
sodas out there, but in McDonald's diet coke ice cold,
hot day, like nothing comes close.
Speaker 1 (33:20):
Okay, I want to tell you something. It's going to
hurt your feelings. I quit soda like eight or nine
years ago. But the exception that I make is for
orange Fanta or orange crush, and I only have it
a couple of times a year, and it's either in
Europe when I can get it in the glass bottle
or to your point, like an extremely hot day when
I feel completely dehydrated, and even though water would be
(33:43):
the best choice, it's like I want the water and
the sugar at the same time, and an orange crush
just hits the spot, just can't can't be top. So
it's worth cheating from my role a couple times a
year for that. Okay, worst soda you've ever tried.
Speaker 2 (33:58):
As a Coke loyalist, I appreciate pepsi has its uses,
but those uses are not for me other than that. Like,
I'm a pretty broad soda drinker, any kind of weird
fruit soda, and like I love trying international ones, but
in terms of like domestically what I can get regularly,
it just even like in Arcy Cola, I think is
(34:19):
interesting enough that it's like differently is distinct enough from
coke that I can enjoy it for what it is,
But at pepsi is just such a like pale imitation
of what I actually love that I can't do it.
Speaker 1 (34:29):
Yeah, there's some interesting like Russian and Ukrainian sodas that
I've been around, but I haven't been bold enough to try.
I thought one of them might make the list of
worst and weirdest, but it sounds like it sounds like
pepsi is the real sticking point.
Speaker 3 (34:42):
For you, all right?
Speaker 1 (34:43):
Last one is what's the weirdest or wildest story Bunk
covered while writing about soda.
Speaker 2 (34:49):
Great question I think I'm going to go with. When
I did a survey of all of the coke Freestyle
machine locations.
Speaker 3 (34:56):
Those are the.
Speaker 2 (34:57):
Machines that have like a whole universe so flavors. It's
not just a regular soda fountain. It's the touchscreen and
it's like, here's cherry vanilla, caffeine free diet coke rather
than just diet coke. Coke runs a map of all
of those, and I had so much fun seeing which
government buildings, which universities, which Federal reserve locations have freestyle
(35:18):
coke as opposed to regular coke.
Speaker 1 (35:20):
There's I've never even heard of this, so you can
click different kinds of coke. It's like a soda fountain machine,
but like every kind of coke you could mix together.
Speaker 2 (35:31):
Yes, So probably the most popular location to find them
is movie theaters. AMC has gone really in on the
coke freestyle like Burger Kings also have them, and five
guys and yeah, it's like a giant touch screen and
it just has every single kind of like syrup permutation
for like a mellow yellow, a coke Fanta, like any
coke product is in this machine.
Speaker 1 (35:52):
So yes, well, we'll dive in on your blog and
see if there's any other SODA's worth making an exception for.
Right now, just stick with my orange fant and my
orange crush. Emma, thank you so much for the time.
Speaker 3 (36:03):
We look forward to your future coverage and we appreciate
you coming on.
Speaker 2 (36:07):
Yeah, thanks for having me.
Speaker 3 (36:11):
We have to take another break. When we come back.
Speaker 1 (36:14):
It'll always be serious, but it was never that serious.
Speaker 3 (36:28):
Welcome Max Slices.
Speaker 1 (36:30):
We love that you're listening, but we always want you
to get in the game every day too, So here's
our good game play of the day. Go read Emma's
Sports Illustrated cover story on the Indiana Fevers rebuild. We'll
be sure to link to it in our show notes.
And we always love to hear from you, so hit
us up on email good game at wondermedianetwork dot com
or leave us a voicemail at eight seven two two
oh four fifty seventy, and don't forget to subscribe, rate
(36:52):
and review.
Speaker 3 (36:53):
It's easy.
Speaker 1 (36:54):
Watch a hair pull a hug and an unnecessary PostScript
rating two out of three stars and one gal who
took it too far review. Remember that Angel Reese triple
double game we told you about earlier this week. Well,
in that contest between the Chicago Sky and the Connecticut Sun,
there was a moment of tension when Connecticut's Bria Hartley
(37:15):
made a play with one hand and grabbed and pulled
one of Reese's braids with the other. While the two
were battling for a rebound. Angel Rees turned around ready
for some smoke and son veteran forward Tina Charles stepped
in to back up Hartley, her teammate.
Speaker 3 (37:28):
Things were tippy for a moment.
Speaker 1 (37:29):
Reese and Charles were drawn after the play while being
held back by teammates, and they kept john while walking
back to their respective benches, but tensions eventually subsided. Both
Reese and Charles were assessed technical fouls and Hartley escaped unpunished.
After the game, Reese and Charles found each other, embraced
and exchanged a few words. Reese explained the exchange in
(37:50):
the postgame presser, Obviously a.
Speaker 4 (37:52):
Little scuffle that we had.
Speaker 2 (37:53):
Obviously she had a stick.
Speaker 4 (37:54):
Up for her teammate, but she was like, you know,
I gotta do that, Like I got to stick up
for my team. And I was like, you know what
that person would like. I love a vet like you,
I love a player like you. Obviously I respect your game.
You've done a lot of great things for this game.
And obviously I love guarding her because I can see
a lot of the things that I can add to
my game.
Speaker 3 (38:08):
She has that pro pro probe and.
Speaker 4 (38:10):
Being able to get to the cup and get that
right hook. So it's great having a VET that really
wants to talk to you and make sure you want
to get better, because obviously when she leaves this game,
she wants to leave it.
Speaker 2 (38:19):
In the right way.
Speaker 3 (38:20):
Love that simple.
Speaker 1 (38:22):
Just another reminder that women are competitors and that momentary
beef on the court in the heat of the moment
doesn't have to extend off of it. But with the
beef squashed and no TECH to her name, Bria Hartley
should have been happy to move on instead, She tweeted
later that night quote, my son said, it's not your
fault you grabbed her hair. It was way too long
(38:44):
and it was really an accident and the refs got
it right.
Speaker 3 (38:47):
End quote. Now, I know you didn't just bring your
kid into this brio.
Speaker 1 (38:51):
As if we don't have replays, multiple replays. Just be
glad you didn't get a tea and keep it moving. Seriously, Slices,
check the screen grab in the show notes and tell
me that doesn't look intentional. That braid is wrapped around
her hand and her arm is pulling back. All right, now,
it's your turn. Rate and review, Give us five stars,
(39:12):
Tell us you love us, thanks for listening. See you
tomorrow for my conversation with Superstar Women's sports stat keepers
Jen Cooper and Richard Cohen. Good Game, Emma, Good Game,
Angel and Tina. Few people who don't recognize that women
can be competitive in sport. Good Game with Sarah Spain
is an iHeart women's sports production in partnership with Deep
(39:33):
Blue Sports and Entertainment. You could find us on the
iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Production by Wonder Media Network, our producers are Alex Azzie
and Misha Jones. Our executive producers are Christina Everett, Jesse Katz,
Jenny Kaplan, and Emily Rudder. Our editors are Emily Rutterer
Britney Martinez, Grace Lynch and Gianna Palmer. Our associate producer
(39:55):
is Lucy Jones, and I'm Your Host Sarah Spain
Welcome to Good Game with Sarah Spain, where I'm in
Canada for the espnW summit and trying my hardest to
say Toronto without the second te Toronto just feels weird.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Man.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
It's Wednesday, June eighteenth, and on today's show you'll hear
my conversation with Sports Illustrated Women's sports staff writer Emma Bachelari.
We talk about her SI cover story on the Indiana
Fever and the franchise is sped up timeline in search
of a title, why she'd love to write a long
form profile on Links coach Cheryl Reeve, the women's basketball
book she's working on with friend of the show Jordan Robinson,
(00:32):
and her Soda substack side quest. Plus, the NWSL gets
a little more international. We remember a long distance running
legend and two Hoopers show the utmost respect for each
other's games, while a third takes it one step too far.
It's all coming up right after this. Back, y'all, here's
(01:00):
what you need to know today in footy news, the
Washington Spirit are welcoming the first ever Italian player to
the NWSL after winning the Serie A league with club
side Juventus. Twenty five year old forward Sofia can Torre
will join the DC based club Cantory, not thirteen goals
and six assists across all competitions with Juventus this past season,
(01:22):
and new Spirit head coach Adrian Gonzalez, the former DC
assistant who officially begins his new head role today, is
excited to have her on the roster, he told the
Athletic Quote. Sofia is an important signing for this Spirit
team as we continue to build up our roster to
compete for trophies. Her extensive experience in the Italian leagues
and exceptional talent in the attacking third will help add
(01:42):
a new layer for the Spirit moving forward end quote.
Can Torre has also got international experience. She's suited up
thirty six times for Italy, scoring five goals. Washington is
currently fourth in the NWSL standings and hoping that Kentry
can help close the eight point gap between the Spirit
and the first place Kansas City. Current in running news,
we're sad to announce that Nina Cusick, a longtime advocate
(02:04):
for women in long distance running, passed away last week
at the age of eighty six. Cusick was a pioneer
in many ways. She ran the Boston Marathon four times
between nineteen sixty eight and seventy one before women were
officially allowed to race. Then, due to the pressure, she
and others applied, the marathon added a women's division for
the first time, and in nineteen seventy two, Cusick raced
in it and won an inductee into the Long Distance
(02:26):
Running Hall of Fame in nineteen ninety nine. Cusick ran
more than eighty marathons in her lifetime. She also set
the American record for the fifty mile run in nineteen
seventy seven and won the Empire State Building Run up
three straight times from nineteen seventy nine to eighty one.
Catherine Switzer, the first woman to run the Boston Marathon
as an official competitor in nineteen sixty seven before there
(02:47):
was a spot on the race's sign up form for gender,
summed up Cusick's influence to the AP, saying quote, Nina
was not only a champion runner, but she was instrumental
in the official acceptance of women and distance running because
she did years of time work of changing rules, regulations,
and submitting medical evidence to prove women's capability.
Speaker 3 (03:06):
End quote. We hear at good game.
Speaker 1 (03:07):
We'll continue to remember Nina Cusick as an icon in
women's sports to hoops. Only one game on the WNBA
slate tonight, so no need for multiple screens. The Phoenix
Merkury Pay visits the Connecticut Sun Out in Uncasville at
seven pm Eastern. Catch that one streaming live on WNBA
League Pass. And in softball, we've got an athlete unlimited
Softball League doubleheader come in your way tonight starting at
(03:30):
seven pm Eastern. It's the Bandits versus the Talons at
Wilkins Stadium in Wichita, Kansas, followed by the Blaze against
the Volts at nine thirty Eastern.
Speaker 3 (03:39):
If you're in the area, get there. It's another single
admission doubleheader, which means it's very easy on the pockets.
If you're not in Kansas, you can watch the seven
pm game on ESPN two and the nine to thirty
contest on MLB dot Com, MLBtv, and FanDuel Sports Network.
We got to take a quick break when we come
back in sports, with Emma Bachelari joining us now.
Speaker 1 (04:14):
She's a staff writer who focuses on women's sports and
baseball for Sports Illustrated and Soda for her sub stack,
The Soda Fountain a member of the Baseball Writers Association
of America. She previously wrote for Baseball Prospectus and Deadspin,
and has appeared on BBC News, PBS News Hour, and
MLB Network. A Duke grad food lover, expert, traveler, Amtrak evangelist,
(04:34):
and person who knows that perfect days are found in Chicago.
It's Emma Bachelari. Hi, Emma, that is quite the intro.
You clearly scoped out the Instagram. I appreciate it.
Speaker 4 (04:45):
That was great.
Speaker 3 (04:46):
Yeah, I want to take that Amtrak trip.
Speaker 1 (04:48):
It looked amazing and I was so appreciative that you
found the perfect day.
Speaker 3 (04:51):
And of course that day was in Chicago. Duh.
Speaker 2 (04:54):
Yes, that is one of my best friends from college
lives in Chicago and I recently had a great day
with her. But yes, anyone who's looking for a way
to get around the country. I spent three weeks on
Amtrak and could fill its own podcast with that. I
truly loved it. So yes, go take the train.
Speaker 1 (05:10):
I love a good train ride, and I really resent
the creators of American travel who prioritized cars over public
squares and trains. But that's a conversation for another time. Actually,
it's a conversation for now in this sense, because I
saw you were just recently in Brussels and I've never been,
So instead of turning this into a full travel pod,
we'll limit it to just one must do in Brussels.
Speaker 2 (05:33):
Obviously drink beer, but beyond that too, not to over
index on trains, but they have this crazy train museum
called train World in Brussels, which had a really fun
train simulator, and it's especially in Europe. The history of
trains are really like the history of the continent in
so many ways. And I was with one of my
friends who does not care about trains the way I do,
(05:53):
and train World was still the highlight of her Brussels
s trip, like kind of beer and muscles aside. So yes,
go to Brussels, drink some beer, and then go to
the train.
Speaker 3 (06:01):
Museum, Beer, muscles, train World. Got it. I'm on it.
Let's talk about.
Speaker 1 (06:06):
Your sports writing, because you did a great SI cover
story on the Indiana fever, and this was a topic
ripe for discussion. New coach, new roster, new president, new
general manager, and a new timeline for a team that
realized after Caitlin Clark's arrival that they wanted to take
advantage of every single minute she played, every game they
had her in uniform, and every opportunity to win with her.
Speaker 3 (06:28):
So let's start there.
Speaker 1 (06:29):
What did you learn about the Fever's timeline from dropping
in and talking to all their big pieces.
Speaker 2 (06:35):
Yeah, this was really interesting to me from AFAR over
the winter, just because you know, everyone has been talking
so much about this big reset that we're going to
see in twenty twenty six, when you know you have
free agency opening up, you're going to have a new
CBA ideally potentially a ton of player movement, and so
many teams were kind of in like weight and see
mode and the fact that the Fever so clearly were
(06:58):
not was fascinating to me. And I think the biggest
thing that came through in all of the conversations I
had with you know, Kelly Cross, Coop and Ambercox and
Steph White, all of these new pieces that they've brought
in on the administration and coaching side, was how much
they really wanted to build a true contender this year.
(07:19):
That the idea wasn't like, oh, like make it a
little further in the playoffs and see how it goes,
but to do everything you can to potentially win it
all this year, which, like as we've seen already, that's
a hard thing to do. To get that many new
pieces to gel. It's going to take time. It's not
easy to say you have a one year window, let's
go and take it. But to use this year both
(07:39):
as a chance to try to win it all and
to set the groundwork to then build something even bigger
and greater in twenty twenty six and ideally beyond, which
is a tricky thing to do, right, to have a
window that is as open as you can get it
now and also potentially in the years to come, to
kind of have that be not just you're throwing open
the door, but also you're trying to build for the
future at the same time time. But I think they
(08:01):
did about as create a job as you can do
of getting those pieces in And then, of course the
bigger question is how do you integrate them? Incorporate them,
and that is not always easy. But yeah, it was
interesting to work on to see exactly how they went
about trying to pull that and all of that in
(08:22):
screen for the right personalities, et cetera. And so yeah,
it was fun to work on.
Speaker 1 (08:26):
Yeah, and obviously this is a team that is in
the position it's in with two of its stars, Caitlin
Clark and Eleiah Boston because they were the worst of
the worst, because they got to have number one picks.
Those players are actually signed through and beyond this season,
which is rare to have two stars that you're having
(08:47):
the rights to beyond this massive transition time in the league.
We've seen across a number of teams we've looked at
that they literally have one player sometimes none, that are
actually signed beyond this season. And so to know that
they can build around those two when they're trying to
attract free agents during this what we expect to be
this big free agent frenzy in the off season is
(09:08):
great for them, but they need to prove this season
essentially that they're a different franchise than the one that
has gotten them to the point where they're drafting back
to back number one overall picks, and that's why this
season was so important to them. We've seen a lot
of coverage of Eliah Boston and Caitlin Clark's relationship.
Speaker 3 (09:26):
We see a lot of cute little clips of them.
Speaker 1 (09:28):
What else did you notice when you were covering this
team and going to report on this team about the
interaction between the players and which players felt like the
vocal leaders, which players felt like they led just with behavior.
Speaker 3 (09:39):
What did you notice?
Speaker 2 (09:41):
I think Kelsey Mitchell is such an important piece here,
which obviously people who watch the team know, but I
really think it can't be overstated how much she does
for this group. That she was the one piece who
has really stuck through all of those rough years when
they were losing to get those number one picks. It was,
you know, they're in the trend, just through the worst
of it, and then decided to stay. Twice She's resigned
(10:03):
with them, once a couple of years ago and then
once this off season. And hearing how both Kitlyn Leah
Lexiehill all talk about her, you know, there are other
newer veterans on this team, but I really think Kelsey
Mitchell is She's not like a super over the top
vocal leader, but they just respect her so much. She
(10:24):
has such an important part to play here on and
off the floor. And I think obviously talking about the
chemistry that you see between Kitlin Clark and Aliah Boston,
that's huge, but that also really frees up Kelsey Mitchell
at the two to do, which she does, and she
had the best season of her career last year. Has
shown flashes with that again, like when everything is clicking here.
She's really such a leader here who's so important to
(10:47):
what they do. Obviously, Kitlyn is the point guard, that's
like a natural. She also is a much more vocal, natural,
outgoing leader in a lot of ways that I think
you see on the floor all the time and off
the floor when she was injured yelling on the bench.
But I think it really in a lot of ways,
Kelsey Mitchell is kind of the heartbeat of this group
and that she just has such an important part to
(11:08):
play here in every facet of her job.
Speaker 1 (11:11):
I want to hear about Natasha Howard and Dwana Bonner.
Those are two really big time, successful veteran players to
add to the mix. There could be a conflict in
terms of who's the alpha, who's the big dog, who's
the one who wants to impart wisdom? When you've got
a Caitlin Clark who's only in her second year but
obviously has her own solar system Essentially, how does it
(11:33):
seemed to work out so far with those two veterans
coming in?
Speaker 2 (11:37):
Yeah, I mean I think it's been a little bit
tricky on the floor. There's certainly been an adjustment period.
I think you know, anyone who's watching this team has
seen do Wanna Bonner started in the starting lineup, and
then it has been coming off the bench more recently.
Obviously they've had some injury struggles across the board that
made them shuffle some things. But I think both of
these players were kind of screened coming in here for recognizing,
(11:59):
like this is an important veteran leadership position, it is
not necessarily your typical one, and just so much about
this roster, about the hubbub that exists around this roster,
is so different than certainly anything else you're seeing in
the w But I think you can make the case
anything else you're seeing in sports right now in terms
of the gravity of one star like that, and how
(12:22):
you navigate that as a team where everyone has a
role to play, and recognizing that the noise is so loud,
but to some extent it's just noise. They were screened
for knowing, like you are going to have to adjust
to some different things here that weren't the case in
other environments, And certainly both of them are accustomed to
playing with stars don't want to. Bonnor was in Phoenix
(12:42):
with DT forever. They know what that's like. But just
realizing like this is a different phase of your career.
That was something dB had talked about a lot of
you know, she realizes these are her last few years.
She wants something different, that she feels like she has
something to give back and this is a chance to
do that. That was something both of them talked about,
(13:03):
but especially do Wanna Bonner and that maybe means your
role shifts on the floor. That means maybe you're sharing
different aspects of that with each other, with other vets,
but basically just knowing They had long conversations with Kelly
Cross cop with Amber Cox, and Kelly Cross knows Natasha
Howard very well. She had drafted her originally in Indiana,
(13:24):
and Amber Cox had worked with Dowanna Bonner that even
though there's so much that's new here, they really leaned
on pre existing relationships and so it's certainly not an
easy thing to balance in terms of being in this
particular spotlight. But they really had a lot of conversations
about it ahead of time in terms of finding like
are these the right personalities to walk that line that
they're going to have to walk.
Speaker 1 (13:44):
Yeah, speaking of that was so interesting to read write
Thompson's story about Caitlin Clark in her final year at Iowa,
and in particular how much work had to be done
behind the scenes by her coaching staff and the rest
of the team staff to help her better understand how
her body language, her frustration, her approach to teammates that
(14:09):
let her down by not catching a great pass or
finishing a shot would impact the team at large. And
it feels like, obviously that's a work in progress for
Caitlyn and always will be. If you're looking real hard,
you can still find those moments in a game when
she's very clear in expressing her frustration. How is it
felt in this season with all these new teammates and
(14:30):
with this added pressure and expectation for this team to succeed.
How have you seen Caitlyn either evolve in that way
or still struggle in that way?
Speaker 2 (14:40):
I mean, I think the biggest thing is that we
had this extended stretch of her on the bench, which
is an extremely new role for her. She obviously wasn't
injured at all in college or in her rookie year
in the W and so I think for the most part,
seeing that was just really interesting. Of this is someone
who obviously is used to not just being a focal
point on the floor, but like playing to as close
(15:01):
to forty minutes as she can and having an offense
run through her where she's involved on every single play.
You have to step back and watch the game from
the bench, I think seeing the ways in which you
could try to involve herself in other ways. You heard
her talk about, like you literally see the game in
a different way, that was an advantage point she had
(15:21):
much experience from. I think in the long run, we're
going to see that potentially be something that helps her there.
Of just it's a different way to experience the game
of watching it, of watching your teammates, maybe picking up
on things that you don't see when you're on the
floor with them. You can see them better from the bench.
So I think we've seen some evolution there. I think obviously,
(15:43):
as you said, she's still this is her second year.
There's still clearly moments of frustration. There's still We just
saw this weekend and she had this insane game against
the Liberty and they handed them their first loss, and
there was this one sequence where like she's clearly on
a heater and like begging for the ball and didn't
get it, and like she's going to be frustrated. She's,
you know, competitive, obviously that's what makes her her.
Speaker 1 (16:04):
Honestly, it was probably best for her as that possession
still ended in a made basket for the fever.
Speaker 2 (16:09):
Ye.
Speaker 1 (16:09):
So in that moment, as frustrated as she might have
been of like how could you not keep coming back
to me? I'm so hot, it was also like, oh, okay, okay,
you guys can do it.
Speaker 3 (16:16):
In that moment, I know that I can leave it
up to my teammates too.
Speaker 2 (16:20):
Yeah. Completely, Just like that moment of frustration is going
to be there, But then you get the reminder. I
think that's important, And so I think it's certainly a
work in progress, and I'm interested to see as we
keep going how much that time of being injured and
observing and interacting with humans in a different way kind
of shapes how she's able to control that.
Speaker 1 (16:40):
You also profiled Caitlin when she was at Iowa. Can
you get a sense of how she really feels about
all this coverage, all this pressure, all this expectation, even
all the controversy. I think she's been pretty stoic in
her own way, and also at times has said I
don't really listen or watch or read, But then sometimes
it becomes clear that she does, just like any other humans,
(17:02):
sometimes engaged with what's being said about or around her.
Can you get a feel for beneath the surface, what
it really has been like for her to be the
center of focus now for a couple of years.
Speaker 2 (17:15):
Yeah. I mean, there are so many layers to a
star like that, in terms of the people they have
around them, the processes that you have to go through
to talk to someone like that, that it's hard to
say for sure. And I think that's a good thing
that she's been able to insulate herself to that degree
that it makes sense to tread carefully when you're really
(17:37):
kind of just entering this new space as a star
at that level. But one of the things that really
stood out to me about that trip to Iowa, which
was a magazine profile in September twenty twenty three, I
went down so a few months after the national championship
game against LSU, but before her senior season had started,
(17:57):
was just how completely self assured she was and how
it didn't exactly feel like media training. And I actually
had asked the iOS Idea at the time, like what
have you done here, Like this is a crazy amount
of like poise and confidence for a college athlete to
handle any question, But they said nothing, like she really
is just like this, and I was kind of inclined
(18:19):
to believe them, just because it really for you know,
a college athlete for a college student period, like thinking
about myself at twenty one or twenty two, my friends,
other college athletes I've interviewed in the years since, like
to just have that kind of complete self assuredness of
being able to answer anything, to kind of know what
(18:39):
you're working with, to be so confident in who you
are and what you want, Like it just really was
a level of I'm not sure if poise is the
right word, and I'm not sure if confidence is either,
but kind of a mix of them. That was really
striking to me, And that like I think you've seen
Carrie through and I think like some people are just
(19:01):
made to handle that. That doesn't mean that it's not
incredibly hard to handle it sometimes, and I think certainly
like we've seen glimpses of that in the right Thompson profile.
There were moments where she had got a sense of
how hard it could be. At some points, I think
in certain moments in her rookie year, you could see
like frustration with being that singular of a focus rather
(19:22):
than it being more diffused across the team. Certainly last
year brought challenges in terms of losing that were new
to her, But I think in general, this is just
someone who is very confident in what she can do,
is very confident in herself. I think it's been nice
to see a little bit more of her personality, which
is super competitive and intense and a lot of fun
(19:43):
come out this year. This was something we did, you know,
with the cover shoot. We also had a video that
went with that of the teammates interacting and quizzing each
other and like her getting really into that was a
lot of fun to watch. Yeah, So yeah, that's kind
of I think from the thirty thousand foot view what
I've seen from she's.
Speaker 1 (20:01):
Very funny, and a lot of times the humor comes
out in those competitive moments. I remember I mentioned on
the show a couple months ago that I had this
incredible opportunity to sit with David Letterman on a zoom
for like ninety minutes and just tell him ahead of
his interview with her the things that I thought would
be really important to make sure he asked her or
addressed in the conversation, and things that I would want
(20:22):
to know about her, things I thought fans would want
to know about her. And one of them that I
said was like, I think she's pretty funny, but we don't.
Speaker 3 (20:28):
Get to see it that much.
Speaker 1 (20:29):
So try to find a way to compete with her
at stuff so that we get that to come out
and that she loosens up. Because it feels like her
truest self is just when she's ballin, whether that's literally
basketball or any other thing.
Speaker 3 (20:42):
And so yeah, I completely agree on that.
Speaker 1 (20:43):
I also think her sort of natural composure and poise
is partly how she's able to not only deal with
the pressure of the intense focus on her but also
on the court, like the reason that she can be
a clutch shooter in those insane moments and be as
dialed and as she is. Probably this like preternatural quality
that can't be taught so much as just is a
(21:05):
part of the reason that she's as great as she is.
You told this great fever story. Is there another story
you most want to tell next in the W?
Speaker 2 (21:14):
Oh this isn't as fun, but one I have been
thinking about a lot this year is refereeing, which obviously,
across all sports, people are going to hate the refs.
I don't think the ideal situation here would be for
everyone to be like, refereeing is amazing and we love it,
because that's never going to happen, and if it is,
probably you have different problems. But the variety of complaints
(21:36):
we've seen against refs, but certainly last year and then
this year we just saw Kelsey Plumb really go at
the refs. We've seen a variety of coaches and players
call it out, and I'm curious as the league gets bigger,
is under more scrutiny kind of the systems of refereeing.
So when we talk about referee pay, referee recruitment, replay
(21:57):
review as something that is done literally by the refs
on the court rather than by an off site replay
review center like is done in the NBA, that's really
interesting to me. And I do wonder if we're starting
to hit a kind of breaking point for the w
to be at a spot where it needs to reevaluate
some of those systems just in terms of having the
(22:17):
best people on the floor with the resources they need
to do the best job all the time.
Speaker 3 (22:23):
I think that's a very worthy story.
Speaker 1 (22:24):
I think you're right there will always be complaints, but
at some point there's a tipping point for whether it
affects the product so much so that people are less
interested or less trustworthy, or even in terms of things
that aren't a priority but are certain a reality, which
is gambling and things like that. You need to make
sure people really think that you're operating at the highest level.
Speaker 3 (22:45):
And it does affect also.
Speaker 1 (22:45):
The value of what you believe you're watching if it
doesn't seem completely professional.
Speaker 3 (22:50):
So all right, I endorse that story.
Speaker 1 (22:52):
What about a player who you think you'd like to
do a long form profile on or get to know better.
Speaker 2 (22:58):
I'm going to flip this and go with a coach
instead of a player. That's okay, Cheryl Reeve. It just
is so interesting to me the way we've seen kind
of really a full turnover of coaching in the last
couple of years, and that Cheryl Reeve is still here,
has been here for so long and has seen the
league through so much but also is still doing such
(23:19):
a fantastic job that I think obviously the Links are
maybe my championship pick right now. I'm sure the Liberty
will give them a run for their money. But watching
what she's done with this team that necessarily wasn't built
to contend last year, and the way that she's evolved
as a coach, the way that her style has evolved
(23:39):
while still feeling very much like the same Cheryl Reeve
who led those Mayam War teams, is just really interesting
to me to have a figure that has stayed in
place as the league has changed so much around her,
as her team has changed so much, as the type
of star she works with has changed, and I think
also as someone who is really like she's always been
(24:00):
such a vocal presence in terms of the values of
the league and what it stands for and what it
means to speak up about that, you know, at a
time when that wasn't as popular or as easy, and
the fact that she's still doing that, it just I
think she's a fascinating person. She's always been a great quote,
and so she is the one I think I'd want
to spend more time with.
Speaker 3 (24:20):
Yeah, completely agree.
Speaker 1 (24:21):
Also, I think really interesting to see over the next
year to what it means for the links to change
ownership Mark Laura and Alex Rodriguez taking over. That's been
a pretty fraught transition from the current owner, Glenn Taylor,
and you always hope that there will be a continued
investment in care for a team when there's new owners
(24:43):
coming in, but it's always difficult when the owners are
primarily focused on the NBA team that they want to buy,
and along with it comes a WNBA team. So we'll
be really interesting to see how she also and the
team fair under that transition and in that new ownership.
I want to cover the coverage a little bit because
you do a lot of baseball coverage. How different does
(25:06):
that feel logistically for you? Before we even get to
the athletes, but as far as resources and access, interacting
with the PR staff and the comms folks, how different
is it when you're going to cover MLB for the
day versus WNBA.
Speaker 2 (25:23):
Very different in some ways and very similar in others,
I think, And it was a huge adjustment winning first
started doing more w coverage just because I mean, MLB
I think has the best access among men's professional sports too,
Like It's long been known for that the BBWA is
(25:43):
one of the strongest Greaters associations in sports media, and
because of that, they have really good access compared to
lots of other sports. And so I was really used
to a system where it's every single day everything is
open that there are certainly plenty of players who don't
want to talk or won't talk on a specific day,
(26:04):
but you can go up to a guy and say, hey,
would you be interested in X y Z today, and
like it is between you and him if he can
say no totally, but like that it is not mediated
by the pr staff, that is not mediated by the team.
That is a conversation you can have every day because
the clubhouse is open before a first pitch, you can
hang out during batting practice, and then it's open afterward
(26:25):
and it has to be open for an hour in
both of those sessions, and it's totally open to everyone.
And that sets a standard for a lot of access
that is not really seen in other sports. And I
think the part that's the same is that it's built
on relationships and showing up and talking to people and
just like being open and honest about what you're trying
(26:48):
to do. And also like what players have to share,
which sometimes can be totally different than when you go
into something thinking you might write that's the same. But yeah,
it is an adjustment to have the system where you know.
The PR staffs in the W A lot of them
do a great job and are trying their best, but
they are much smaller. Some teams really only have one
person who's there on a daily basis, juggling a lot
(27:11):
with fewer resources. That's hard to adjust to you. Obviously,
the daily nature of baseball versus basketball is that is
going to be different no matter what. But the fact
that it is every day in baseball really gives you
a chance to build rapport and talk about silly things
and just like you know, build points by showing up
basically in a way that is different in basketball. And
(27:36):
I think you know, there are so many amazing stories
in the W and so many athletes like I would
love to be able to write more on and it
can be kind of frustrating when it feels like something
is super mediated by a PR staff who's maybe over attacks,
doesn't have the resources to do what they want to do.
Of like, I want to tell these stories and a
(27:57):
lot of times like players want to talk and want
to share it too, but they only have you know,
like a very short window when they're supposed to be
on the court during you know, either before a game
or even at a practice, and it's all mediated and
put into boxes. It can be harder to get to
a place to build those relationships, which is frustrating. And
I think there are lots of instances of like we
(28:20):
both want these stories told, Like can't we get on
the same team to make this happen, Like you have
to be a little more open and give people a
little more space to work in order to get that built.
And that's hard. But at the same time, like the
building box of it are the same, but it is
definitely you can tell fewer resources, fewer people. It's hard. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:41):
With baseball, it's a necessity for it to be daily
because there's a game every day, so every day there's
a new win or loss, or moment or play to
react to. And yet also they are so busy because
they have a game every day that it's kind of
a miracle that you have the kind of access that
you have.
Speaker 3 (28:56):
And so in the w there's got to be.
Speaker 1 (28:59):
A balance of fewer games and still enough access to
try to talk to the players, understanding that they don't
make the same money as MLB players. They deserve to
have balance in lives and everything else. But yeah, it
feels like there's this real push and pull right now
of the direction the W as a league wants to
go in and the resources and investment and changing coverage
(29:22):
that's happening.
Speaker 3 (29:23):
That's going to require.
Speaker 1 (29:24):
A change in staffing and resourcing for that side of
things too, because too often folks who want to give
the coverage aren't able to have the access to And
there are a lot of issues in the W and
in women's sports that aren't present in men's and that
includes things.
Speaker 3 (29:39):
Like we just saw.
Speaker 1 (29:41):
Reporter from OutKick, you know, interviewing Brittany Grinder about an incident.
We've seen reporters who are not operating in good faith
or don't seem to be there to get the honesty
of a story, but rather to spin something for a
certain kind of audience. And on the one hand, you
want to offer up that that kind of access is
(30:03):
just inevitable in sports, and that kind of coverage is
inevitable and you have to push through it. On the
other hand, it feels like there is a necessity for
some protection or care with these athletes as well because
of all the intersectional issues at play. How do you
feel about that? There's been conversations about just don't credential
those people, just don't give access to people if their
coverage in sight never seems to be actually doing any
(30:26):
meaningful work and is only coming in to stir up shit.
How do you feel about that approach to still credentialing
or deciding not to.
Speaker 2 (30:36):
Yeah, I also felt my stomach huring kind of watching
that video of OutKick with Britney Griner, And I think
this is mostly something I see as an issue of
the systems of PR and the resources they have that
do you have enough people to Like I don't think
this answer is necessarily auto rejecting credentials, but like talking
(30:58):
to people when you get a credential, work us, what
game are you looking to cover? Why is there something
we can help you with? Then maybe being able to
have a PR staff for present instagrums like that to
know when maybe something should be shut down like that's
in a lot of ways just as a matter of
having enough PR staff to be able to do that,
(31:21):
to be able to be in multiple places at once
because you have multiple people. That's kind of what I
see as the best way to go through this, that like,
it's never going to be perfect, that you know, but
you need to do as much as you can to
make sure that. I think you certainly can't guarantee positive coverage,
(31:44):
and you shouldn't, but I think you can do everything
you can to guarantee good faith coverage. And that is
a different question to me, and that, to me, is
mostly one of talking to people who are new level,
setting expectations and then being able to be physically and
for conversations that might be more difficult.
Speaker 1 (32:04):
I want to ask how Court Queen's is going. We've
had Jordan Robinson on the show. Are you guys still
in the process of writing Where are we at with
that book?
Speaker 2 (32:12):
We are almost done with our book. Yes, Jordan and
I have been putting together this photographic history of women's
basketball and we are in the last stages of like
design review, which is really fun and exciting, and yeah,
it's just been so cool to work on something that
takes such a broad look at the game from literally
(32:32):
eighteen eighty two to twenty twenty five and just really
fun to look at all these different stories that some
I had no idea about. Some have just so much
more depth to them than I realized. Just so much
that happened in the game, you know, before nineteen eighty six.
So yeah, we are almost done with this design review
and then it's mostly done.
Speaker 1 (32:52):
Congratulations. That's so exciting. We can't wait to see it
all right, last question for you. You do have a
sub stack called soda Fountain dot com. It's actually soda
dash Fountain dot com. I have three questions for you.
Number one, the best soda you've ever had?
Speaker 2 (33:07):
Oh, a diet coke from McDonald's on a really hot day.
That is nothing touches that. Lots of like fun niche
sodas out there, but in McDonald's diet coke ice cold,
hot day, like nothing comes close.
Speaker 1 (33:20):
Okay, I want to tell you something. It's going to
hurt your feelings. I quit soda like eight or nine
years ago. But the exception that I make is for
orange Fanta or orange crush, and I only have it
a couple of times a year, and it's either in
Europe when I can get it in the glass bottle
or to your point, like an extremely hot day when
I feel completely dehydrated, and even though water would be
(33:43):
the best choice, it's like I want the water and
the sugar at the same time, and an orange crush
just hits the spot, just can't can't be top. So
it's worth cheating from my role a couple times a
year for that. Okay, worst soda you've ever tried.
Speaker 2 (33:58):
As a Coke loyalist, I appreciate pepsi has its uses,
but those uses are not for me other than that. Like,
I'm a pretty broad soda drinker, any kind of weird
fruit soda, and like I love trying international ones, but
in terms of like domestically what I can get regularly,
it just even like in Arcy Cola, I think is
(34:19):
interesting enough that it's like differently is distinct enough from
coke that I can enjoy it for what it is,
But at pepsi is just such a like pale imitation
of what I actually love that I can't do it.
Speaker 1 (34:29):
Yeah, there's some interesting like Russian and Ukrainian sodas that
I've been around, but I haven't been bold enough to try.
I thought one of them might make the list of
worst and weirdest, but it sounds like it sounds like
pepsi is the real sticking point.
Speaker 3 (34:42):
For you, all right?
Speaker 1 (34:43):
Last one is what's the weirdest or wildest story Bunk
covered while writing about soda.
Speaker 2 (34:49):
Great question I think I'm going to go with. When
I did a survey of all of the coke Freestyle
machine locations.
Speaker 3 (34:56):
Those are the.
Speaker 2 (34:57):
Machines that have like a whole universe so flavors. It's
not just a regular soda fountain. It's the touchscreen and
it's like, here's cherry vanilla, caffeine free diet coke rather
than just diet coke. Coke runs a map of all
of those, and I had so much fun seeing which
government buildings, which universities, which Federal reserve locations have freestyle
(35:18):
coke as opposed to regular coke.
Speaker 1 (35:20):
There's I've never even heard of this, so you can
click different kinds of coke. It's like a soda fountain machine,
but like every kind of coke you could mix together.
Speaker 2 (35:31):
Yes, So probably the most popular location to find them
is movie theaters. AMC has gone really in on the
coke freestyle like Burger Kings also have them, and five
guys and yeah, it's like a giant touch screen and
it just has every single kind of like syrup permutation
for like a mellow yellow, a coke Fanta, like any
coke product is in this machine.
Speaker 1 (35:52):
So yes, well, we'll dive in on your blog and
see if there's any other SODA's worth making an exception for.
Right now, just stick with my orange fant and my
orange crush. Emma, thank you so much for the time.
Speaker 3 (36:03):
We look forward to your future coverage and we appreciate
you coming on.
Speaker 2 (36:07):
Yeah, thanks for having me.
Speaker 3 (36:11):
We have to take another break. When we come back.
Speaker 1 (36:14):
It'll always be serious, but it was never that serious.
Speaker 3 (36:28):
Welcome Max Slices.
Speaker 1 (36:30):
We love that you're listening, but we always want you
to get in the game every day too, So here's
our good game play of the day. Go read Emma's
Sports Illustrated cover story on the Indiana Fevers rebuild. We'll
be sure to link to it in our show notes.
And we always love to hear from you, so hit
us up on email good game at wondermedianetwork dot com
or leave us a voicemail at eight seven two two
oh four fifty seventy, and don't forget to subscribe, rate
(36:52):
and review.
Speaker 3 (36:53):
It's easy.
Speaker 1 (36:54):
Watch a hair pull a hug and an unnecessary PostScript
rating two out of three stars and one gal who
took it too far review. Remember that Angel Reese triple
double game we told you about earlier this week. Well,
in that contest between the Chicago Sky and the Connecticut Sun,
there was a moment of tension when Connecticut's Bria Hartley
(37:15):
made a play with one hand and grabbed and pulled
one of Reese's braids with the other. While the two
were battling for a rebound. Angel Rees turned around ready
for some smoke and son veteran forward Tina Charles stepped
in to back up Hartley, her teammate.
Speaker 3 (37:28):
Things were tippy for a moment.
Speaker 1 (37:29):
Reese and Charles were drawn after the play while being
held back by teammates, and they kept john while walking
back to their respective benches, but tensions eventually subsided. Both
Reese and Charles were assessed technical fouls and Hartley escaped unpunished.
After the game, Reese and Charles found each other, embraced
and exchanged a few words. Reese explained the exchange in
(37:50):
the postgame presser, Obviously a.
Speaker 4 (37:52):
Little scuffle that we had.
Speaker 2 (37:53):
Obviously she had a stick.
Speaker 4 (37:54):
Up for her teammate, but she was like, you know,
I gotta do that, Like I got to stick up
for my team. And I was like, you know what
that person would like. I love a vet like you,
I love a player like you. Obviously I respect your game.
You've done a lot of great things for this game.
And obviously I love guarding her because I can see
a lot of the things that I can add to
my game.
Speaker 3 (38:08):
She has that pro pro probe and.
Speaker 4 (38:10):
Being able to get to the cup and get that
right hook. So it's great having a VET that really
wants to talk to you and make sure you want
to get better, because obviously when she leaves this game,
she wants to leave it.
Speaker 2 (38:19):
In the right way.
Speaker 3 (38:20):
Love that simple.
Speaker 1 (38:22):
Just another reminder that women are competitors and that momentary
beef on the court in the heat of the moment
doesn't have to extend off of it. But with the
beef squashed and no TECH to her name, Bria Hartley
should have been happy to move on instead, She tweeted
later that night quote, my son said, it's not your
fault you grabbed her hair. It was way too long
(38:44):
and it was really an accident and the refs got
it right.
Speaker 3 (38:47):
End quote. Now, I know you didn't just bring your
kid into this brio.
Speaker 1 (38:51):
As if we don't have replays, multiple replays. Just be
glad you didn't get a tea and keep it moving. Seriously, Slices,
check the screen grab in the show notes and tell
me that doesn't look intentional. That braid is wrapped around
her hand and her arm is pulling back. All right, now,
it's your turn. Rate and review, Give us five stars,
(39:12):
Tell us you love us, thanks for listening. See you
tomorrow for my conversation with Superstar Women's sports stat keepers
Jen Cooper and Richard Cohen. Good Game, Emma, Good Game,
Angel and Tina. Few people who don't recognize that women
can be competitive in sport. Good Game with Sarah Spain
is an iHeart women's sports production in partnership with Deep
(39:33):
Blue Sports and Entertainment. You could find us on the
iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Production by Wonder Media Network, our producers are Alex Azzie
and Misha Jones. Our executive producers are Christina Everett, Jesse Katz,
Jenny Kaplan, and Emily Rudder. Our editors are Emily Rutterer
Britney Martinez, Grace Lynch and Gianna Palmer. Our associate producer
(39:55):
is Lucy Jones, and I'm Your Host Sarah Spain
Host
Sarah Spain
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