How Smartphones Are Rewiring Your Kid’s Brain (And What You Can Do About It) | Clare Morell - Granger Smith Podcast

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Claire, Thank you so much. This is such an important
topic and I'm glad you're with us. Amber and I
so to talk about our kids and how bad we're
doing raising them. Could you tell us a little bit
about yourself and where you're coming from and what you've
done with this project.

Speaker 2 (00:20):
Jess, thanks so much for asking, thanks for having me on.
So I am in Washington, d C. My husband is
a pastor in pastoral ministry, but I've spent the last
several years working in the public policy space. So I
work for a think tank, which, for those outside of DC,
is a nonprofit that tries to help support government with

(00:40):
research and expertise in certain issue areas. And so my
work has focused on protecting kids online from harms from smartphones,
social media, and online pornography. And so I've worked with
states on legislation at the state level to try to
better protect our kids from these harms, and then have
also worked on the federal level with advising members of

(01:01):
Congress on different legislative approaches. So I come to this
with from mainly a policy background, but then I'm also
a parent and I have three young children, and so
my heart really behind all of this is to help
other parents better know how to protect their kids.

Speaker 1 (01:15):
Yeah, so good. I heard from your publicist. He texted
me and told me about the book and said that
you're you know, you're going to be doing podcasts. And
turns out that that's your husband. And I love him
as a brother, and he's also Hey, he's also a
really good publicist. He's a good promoter.

Speaker 3 (01:32):
He's your manage, my biggest fan, I know. I love him.

Speaker 1 (01:37):
That's great. How old are your kids?

Speaker 2 (01:40):
We are oldest is five, our middle is three, and
then our youngest is sixteen months.

Speaker 1 (01:45):
And you're in the thick of it.

Speaker 3 (01:47):
Yes, we're in the little years for sure.

Speaker 1 (01:49):
And you're traveling. You're doing for at least the last
three weeks. You've been really busy, am I right?

Speaker 3 (01:57):
Yes, this has been exceptional for our family.

Speaker 2 (02:00):
Normally, I am home like full time with our kids,
and I do my writing and my research and phone
calls and meetings and things around their sleep schedules. So
I often get up early in the mornings and work
during nap times. But the last three weeks have been
a bit of an exception with my book coming out.
So excited to return to our normal routine later this summer.

Speaker 1 (02:18):
You know what you could do is whenever you have
like a podcast like this, when the kids wake up,
you could just give them an iPad and just occupy
their time a little bit.

Speaker 2 (02:26):
Oh, I know how ironic. Oh, Caleb and I have
talked about that as well, just that. Yeah, there's definitely
challenges to living out a tech exit lifestyle because I
do think that the screen can become such an easy
pacifier for parents, and so it does take more involvement
on the part of parents to come up with the
alternatives for what your kids are going to do to

(02:47):
help entertain them.

Speaker 1 (02:48):
Yeah. So what we're talking about for everyone is your
new book called The Tech Exit, and it's such a
helpful book, and it's not It doesn't just identify the problem,
but it's also very practical and it gives us some
some practical application as parents and for our children, but
not only for our children, for us as well. We

(03:09):
should this this, all of this implies that we should
be hearing this also, and you wrote it from a
parent perspective so that we could know how to better
parent our kids through something that's really untested, uncharted. We
don't know the effects of this because it's it's so new,
but we should we should also be hearing this for ourselves.

(03:31):
And although our brains are fully developed, at least at
least most of us amber more than mine. But but
because our brains are fully developed, we we we could
handle better. But but giving our kids technology to pacify
them is actually you make the argument, it's actually it's
actually harder for parents than it is easier. And and

(03:55):
you could say, I've heard you say before that parents
have always been able to pass by their kids with
something other than a screen until the last ten years.
So this is brand new in human history. So where
do we begin? Where what's your first argument on why

(04:15):
parents should hear this and hear this conversation today and
start to think differently about screens. We all know they're bad.
But you're making the argument that it's not just reducing
the time. It's not like you have less sugar and
that's better for you, just somehow in moderation. You're saying, no,
not even moderation. So where do we begin this conversation?

Speaker 3 (04:37):
Yeah, thank you for asking.

Speaker 2 (04:39):
So that is that's where I start the book with,
trying to start where I think most parents are at,
which is they recognize screens are harmful, but they also
there are so many pushes towards screen I mean, parental ease,
also just the peer pressure of oh, everyone else's kid
is getting a smartphone, and so there's a lot of
pressures towards screens. But I think parents recognize they're harmful,

(05:01):
so they have adopted these strategies like screen time limits
rental controls, so that they can have both that they
can give their child a screen and still feel like
they're protecting them from harm. And so what I try
to explain in the book is that I want parents
to understand that screen time limits and parental controls are
not working out the ways that they have been told
that they will. Honestly by the tech companies, they've been
sold this myth. You can use our products, your kids

(05:23):
can use our products, just put the controls in place.
And I want parents to understand that the nature of
the design of the screen is inherently harmful and addictive
to a child's developing brain. And I think, as you mentioned,
we've operated with this analogy of treating screens like sugar,
something that can be enjoyed in moderation. Obviously, we don't
want to give it to them in large amounts. But

(05:43):
what I'm trying to explain to parents is that the
business model and the effect that these technologies have on
a child's developing brain and nervous system. The dopamine that's
released constantly while they're on the screen, and the amount
of dopamine is incredibly addictive. So no screen time life
is ever enough. And I think any parent who has
tried this approach will tell you that that it's a

(06:04):
constant battle because the child always wants more, and it's
because the dopamine released from the interactive features of the screen,
the notifications, the likes, the new tokens in the game,
all of this is eliciting a response in the brain
that makes a child want more and more and more.
It creates compulsion, and dopamine actually never creates satisfaction. So

(06:26):
there's there's no limit that will ever be enough. And
even a short amount of time means even after the
child is not on the screen or the app anymore,
they will be living in that virtual world long after
they leave it that the screen time limit doesn't map
on to a child's mental or emotional time because it
creates such a strong craving and so I want parents

(06:48):
to put screens more in the category of a highly
addictive drug, something that we recognize is so inherently addictive,
even in small amounts, that it just is overpowering to
a child's divvel helping brain and nervous system. And so
that's what I'm trying to explain to parents in the
opening of the book, is that I understand that parents
kind of feel like they can control this thing, and

(07:10):
I'm trying to expose that the underlying business model makes
it inherently dangerous in any amount to allow a child
onto particularly smartphones and interactive screens like tablets, And then
the worst defenders are the social media apps that they're
accessing often on those devices.

Speaker 1 (07:27):
So there is a level of screens like TVs, although
not ideal, you're saying, that's kind of the low the
low level. And then and you get hired as you
get into maybe educational videos on a tablet. Well, I
guess tablets are told it's it levels up itself because

(07:48):
it's interactive and it's touch screen, and you get dopamine
hit just from swiping around. But then you're saying, all
the way up to a social media, a full blown
social media account. What were you going to say.

Speaker 4 (08:00):
Well, just to say, Claire in your book, you say,
I was so convicted because we our children have screens,
we try to put the limits on them, but as
you said, it's all a facade. Screen limits don't actually work.
But you say, we don't put limits on them bike riding,
or we don't put limits on them reading a book.
So we're putting limits on something because we know, we
have to know inherently it's not great for them. And

(08:22):
so that was really convicting for me, Like, we don't
put a limit on them doing a puzzle or coloring
or things like that, but there's something wrong if we
have to put a limit on something that they're doing.

Speaker 3 (08:32):
Yes, I'm so glad you brought that up.

Speaker 2 (08:33):
I do think that's and that's I think one of
the most revealing things to pearance is when they stop
and think about it, they're like, oh, yeah, why am
I putting a limit on it? Because I do know
that it's harmful for them? And so just kind of
questioning like what level of harm then are we comfortable with?
Like if we know that there is some harm that
comes through this, then yeah, then the limit it just
it becomes very difficult then to explain just what limit

(08:57):
is appropriate. Then if it's like an inherently harmful things,
should we be giving it at all?

Speaker 3 (09:01):
And that's kind of what.

Speaker 2 (09:02):
I'm trying to push parents towards. And you know, Granger,
you were mentioning there is a range, and I try
to distinguish between that and my book that there are
more passive screens like television, where you're consuming content on them,
but the child's not actually interacting with the screen, They're
not receiving feedback from it. Because what makes the iPad,
the tablet, the smartphone, the social media app so addictive

(09:24):
is it's that constant feedback, like that's what draws them
back for more. And the companies know this, that they
are hijacking our brains vulnerabilities, and that we're drawn to
these social rewards and we should be getting them from
people in real life, like that's the feedback and approval
of our peers. But social media and other apps too.
I try to explain to parents social media has crept

(09:46):
into all these other kind of apps advertised to younger kids.
I've had so many parents say, I thought my kid
was just playing this educational game. I had no idea
that they could actually be messaging with complete strangers on
this app, they could be adding friends on this and
so it's actually social media is not even contained to
the major social media apps anymore. All these other apps

(10:07):
are kind of grafting onto that business model as well.
And so just knowing that these things are not they're
just hijacking our brain's normal process of development, particularly particularly
in children, to start to turn outwards toward their peers
to look for feedback and approval. And the social media
apps and these other apps that are kind of social

(10:27):
media light are really hijacking that normal process of development
and making kids extra sensitive. And so that's why I
would just say the brain research parents have to understand,
like studies are coming out showing that kids who are
frequent checkers of social media or other apps are showing
divergent brain development other time, that their brains are not
proceeding to develop in a normal way, but are becoming

(10:49):
extremely overly sensitive to the kinds of social rewards that
they get through these apps.

Speaker 1 (10:56):
You mentioned even the U version Bible apps having a
social component to it where people are sharing pictures with
each other. So even if you look at your child's
phone and the only thing on here is a Bible app.
They're totally good.

Speaker 2 (11:11):
Not so fast, yes, I think, And that's what I
try to explain more in the parental Controls or a
myth chapter, which is kind of the second part of
what we're talking about with the current harm reduction measures
most parents are employing. And I'm not trying to fault
parents for using controls, obviously they're trying to keep their
child safe, but I'm trying to explain that there are

(11:32):
so many holes and gaps that they're just not fully effective.
And so even if you think your child is on
the U version Bible app, that's the only app they're
allowed to access. There are just so many backdoors to
the Internet that all these apps. There's hundreds of apps
available on a device, and each of them has their
own InApp browser, its own portal to the Internet. Often
filters or perntal control software you install can't access those

(11:55):
in app browsers where parents don't realize they install a
third party prontal control software, and most of the major
social media companies don't let third party software access the
data inside their app. So it's the best it can
tell you is how much time your kid has spent
on Snapchat, you have no idea what they're seeing or
doing inside of it. The fact that they could click
through to a pornography website like porn Hub without ever

(12:17):
leaving the app, and a parent would have no idea.
So I just I feel for parents, and I want
them to understand that they are just flying completely blind
when it comes to these devices, because it's they're just
impossible to effectively lock down, and the device manufacturers don't
even make it easy on parents. I've had so many
moms complain that they configure the app store to only

(12:37):
show apps rated as appropriate for a nine year old,
and they still said that their son was advertised adult
online dating apps in the app store, And one survey
said that one in four nine to twelve year old
boys have been on an online dating app. I mean,
which is horrifying, but it's hard. It's easier to understand

(12:58):
how that could even be reality when you realize that
the app stores are often promoting these inappropriate apps, even
to accounts that are supposed.

Speaker 3 (13:05):
To be configured to be appropriate for a child.

Speaker 2 (13:07):
And so I feel like parents fight a colossal uphill battle,
and I just want them to understand that the best
solution is just to totally opt out. That it's just
it's impossible to effectively lock down a smartphone to be
safe for a child.

Speaker 4 (13:24):
Yeah, you were saying that there's just these all these
dopamine hits, and that kids are they're becoming desensitized to
the pleasures of the real world. It's like nothing in
the world world, like a sunrise or a sunset, or
a beautiful bird or nothing is exciting to them anymore.
They get so bored so easily because they're searching for
that continued dopamine hit that they're getting from the apps
or the games that they're playing.

Speaker 2 (13:46):
Yes, and this is a big part of it too,
is I think sometimes parents think that the kind of
cost to being on the screen is this opportunity cost
of their time spent on the screen versus doing something else.
But that's not the only opportunity cost. It's not just time,
but their actual affections and desires change. They become warped

(14:07):
by the screen so that they are actually desensitized to
things that are supposed to bring us pleasure in the
real world. That, yeah, a sunset or a walk with
a family member, starts to feel boring and mundane because
their brain gets used to an artificially high level of
dopamine from these features on the screen, and so the
dopamine the pleasure bursts that would be released by real

(14:27):
life activities just fall completely flat because the child's brain
is so olderly sensitized to such a high artificial level
of dopamine, and so it is it's a bigger cost
than just their time. It actually changes their desires and
their appetites and affections away from the things that parents
would want them to desire to do.

Speaker 4 (14:47):
I even saw in the book that you and I
know I keep honing in on the dangers, but you
said something about dry eyes in little children, little babies,
and I was just shocked that. I mean, you can
tell would you tell us about that?

Speaker 2 (15:01):
Yes, this was actually probably the most horrifying thing I
came across in my research that I really hadn't prior
to understood. I had known more about the mental health
harms and some of these other things, but the dry
eye was just shocking to me. I interviewed an ophthalmologist
and she said she was starting to see kids in
her practice, eight or nine year olds coming in with
chronic dry eye, and she couldn't understand why this was happening.

(15:24):
But it turns out that the only factor behind it
was just that these kids were spending a lot of
time on screens. And so what she realized is that
when kids are staring at a screen, they're not blinking
enough because when we blink, we actually release oil from
these glands in our eyes that then lubricate our eye
and keep them lubricated, which is important because what she
was explaining to me is when the kids are not blinking,

(15:46):
they're not releasing this oil from the glands, and the
glands just dry up. She used an analogy which maybe
you all understand. I didn't grow up on a farm,
but I know many people have grown up on farms
that when you milk a cow, that's really important otherwise
the milk will dry up. And she said it's the
same with these glands, that when we blink, we're actually
like milking the gland, and if it isn't milked, it

(16:08):
just completely dries up. And she said kids are actually
losing their eye glands and they can't come back, like
once they're lost, they're gone. And the danger then is
if unless now these kids will have to spend the
rest of their life artificially lubricating their eyes with external
eye drops because if they don't, scar tissue builds up
on the eye and that can actually ultimately lead to blindness.

(16:30):
And so I asked her, I said, well, then how
many hours a day? Like what are we talking about?
Like when does this dry eye start happening? And she said,
we don't have the research yet to tell us like
how much is too much? But she said, all I
can say is that we need to drastically minimize the
amount of hours a day that children are spending on screens,
because she said, any amount of time on the screen,
they're not blinking enough. And when that kind of blink

(16:53):
brain connection breaks down and kids aren't blinking enough, they
lose these glands that they need to be able to see.
I mean, They're eyes could literally go blind from staring
from staring at the screens too much if they lose
these glands.

Speaker 3 (17:07):
I was shocking to me.

Speaker 1 (17:09):
So I'm just thinking, has there ever been a greater
threat to our children? I was I was kind of
thinking about that we talked about.

Speaker 4 (17:19):
Right before we started, that we got so fearful or
our parents did got so fearful of the outside exterior
dangers in the world that we've brought them in to
where it's now it's even more dangerous inside on a
little screen. We think we're protecting them, and we're really
hurting them even more.

Speaker 3 (17:35):
Yeah, I'm glad you brought that up.

Speaker 2 (17:36):
I do think that that is kind of what happened,
that parents started getting afraid of kind of what was
happening in the outside world and thought like, we'll just
have our kids be inside where we can see them
and monitor what they're doing. And I think that is
the subtle danger of screens, is that when you hand
your child a smartphone, you are handing the entire world
access to your child. I think it's hard for parents

(17:56):
to understand that. They think, well, I see my child,
they're sitting right there. But the reality is that people
predators from all over the world can actually be reaching
out to your child and imitating, like presenting themselves as
if they are a peer in your local community. I
don't know if you've followed the stories in the news
about these sextortion schemes, but they're run out of you know,
third world developing countries. People who are thousands of miles away,

(18:19):
but they portray themselves as a teenage girl down the street.
And so these poor teenage boys have just fallen victim
to these sextortion schemes and they and I just aparent,
I mean, parent after a parent I've spoken of said
they just had no idea. I mean, they just thought
that their child was talking to their friends on these
apps or devices and they were sitting right there, you know,

(18:40):
in their bedroom or in the living room. And so
it is really important for parents to understand, like, your
child is actually much safer playing outside. They're much safer
riding their bike down the street than they are sitting
in their room on a screen alone where the entire
world can actually access them now because social media has
given predators incredible access. I mean I interviewed a law

(19:00):
enforcement detective in the book. He's you know, his whole
career was spent just prosecuting, going after human traffickers. And
he said, Claire, the level of access predators have today
is unlike anything we've ever.

Speaker 3 (19:14):
Seen before in human history.

Speaker 2 (19:16):
The fact that they can just so easily get access
to a child just through an app, just through a screen,
within seconds. And so I do think it's really critical
for parents to understand that.

Speaker 1 (19:27):
I think that answers the question has there ever been
a greater threat? You know, as we think through these things,
I've said before, either on this podcast or to other people,
when was the last time you saw a kid with
a cast on their arm? Like remember when we were
growing up, there was always a kid in school that

(19:47):
had a cast, and everyone's signing it, you know, putting
an autograph and you see. I think there's got to
be a correlation. These days, you see less and less
cast Like kids are not falling out of trees anymore.
Kids are not falling off bikes and breaking the collar
bone or their wrist. That's not happening as surely, Claire.
I as you talk, and I want people to understand

(20:11):
that you're not just someone who sat in a room
and read a bunch of books, or you've even sat
under a professor. You are those things, but more than that.
You've mentioned a few times here already you said, I've
talked to so many parents, or I interviewed this person,
or I talked to this doctor. So you've been you

(20:32):
are doing the research. How long did this take you
and how important was it for you to not just
read something or to take in an opinion, but to
see it hear it for yourself.

Speaker 3 (20:43):
That's such a good question.

Speaker 4 (20:44):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (20:44):
I mean, in some ways, I've been working on this
book for just the last like four or five years
that have been doing this work because of all the
people I've encountered over the years of just doing this
work and spoken to these people firsthand, but particularly for
the book. I mean, I spent about year just interviewing
people and hearing their stories, and not just experts. I

(21:05):
really I did want to speak to experts in the
spaces like law enforcement, medicine, education, but I actually spent
a lot of time talking to families because what I
was mainly trying to set out to do in this
book was to prove to myself that a smartphone free
childhood was possible. This is what I wanted to do
for my own kids. Like after reading all this research,
I became convinced I'm not giving my own children smartphones

(21:27):
or social media. But they were all little, Like as
we mentioned, they were all under the age of five,
and so I had not yet personally navigated the teen
years to say that yes, you can do this successfully.
This is how to do it, And so that is
what I set out to do in my book was
I wanted to prove to myself and be able to
prove to all the other parents now who can read
my book, that a smartphone free childhood is possible and

(21:48):
how how can you do this? And so I spoke
to just dozens of families all over the country, kids
of different ages, age ranges, and I just really sought
to find out how did you opt out successfully and
how did you overcome different challenges to living out a
tech exit lifestyle. And that is what I tried to
then draw out in the book was the core principles

(22:11):
and practices that all these families had in common, even
though they may have slightly different arrangements of how this
looked in their family with their particular kids, they shared
several practices that helped them successfully keep smartphones out of childhood.
And I wanted to show other parents then how to
do that, And so I tell people I had this
hypothesis going into the book. I came out of my

(22:33):
research overwhelmingly convinced that not only was this necessary to
give children a smartphone free childhood, but.

Speaker 3 (22:40):
It was actually possible.

Speaker 2 (22:41):
It was actually easier than I think I thought because
hearing from these families and how they kind of overcame
different points of resistance, and just like you were saying
at the beginning, Granger, that actually this was the easier path.

Speaker 3 (22:52):
In the long run.

Speaker 2 (22:54):
Sure there were short term costs to saying no to smartphones,
but their kids learned how to play independently. Their kids
learned how to self entertain themselves. They learned how to
develop real world skills, I mean, to play outside, to
develop a craft, a sport, a music, musical instrument, and
they developed most importantly self control because they didn't grow
up addicted or dependent on these devices, and so they're

(23:16):
entering now the adult world just so set up for success.
And all their kids were just flourishing and happy and
had close relationships with their parents and their siblings. And
so to me, it was like what parent wouldn't want
this for their kid? And if the common ingredient in
all these families was resisting smartphones, then I was like,
I need to get the word out. I want everyone

(23:36):
to understand it this is possible and that it's really
fundamentally positive.

Speaker 3 (23:41):
I think parents feel.

Speaker 2 (23:42):
Like, oh, saying no to screens just sounds like drudgery,
and that wasn't the case for these families because they were.
They explained to me, like saying no to screens was
saying yes just so much more in the real world
and in real life you want for your kids.

Speaker 1 (23:54):
And they're not weird.

Speaker 3 (23:56):
They're not weird.

Speaker 2 (23:59):
I think I've less at least stated that in the book,
because I do think people think, Okay, these people must
be like living in luddite bubbles, or they're like in
Amish communities, and I'm like, no, these are your neighbors,
like down the street. Like these families live in just
normal neighborhoods and they're part of normal schools. And honestly,
some people in their community they found other families to

(24:19):
opt out with them, but then other families in their
communities didn't, and they just they found ways to help
their kids build friendships in the real world, whether or
not everyone shared their tech restrictions or not. And so
I talk about in the book that it really helps
set you up for success if you can find a
few other parents to be allies in this with you,
and so your kids do genuinely have other friends who

(24:40):
are also not on smartphones or social media. But they
also shared that, you know, some other families in their kids'
friends did have phones, and how they navigated that was
they said, well, our kids didn't, and we explained to
our kids that a real friend will find other ways
to get in touch with you if you're not on
the apps or you're not in the group text. And

(25:01):
so a lot of these kids even said that they
saw the differences for themselves that in their peers who
were on smartphones, they found them to be more kind
of lame in social settings. And so these families are
not retreating from the world. They're not building separate you
know communities, completely opting out of society, but they are
just saying no to smartphones and they're able to then

(25:24):
help their family thrive and flourish because of that. So
I would just say it is there is a component
of finding other people to do this with you. I
think it's helpful to build what I kind of call
these counter communities. You know, a group of people within
a community that's opting out together, but you don't have
to exit society. That they've actually found ways to navigate

(25:45):
the real world opting out of these smartphones, and they've
actually helped their children find their real friends faster by
these tech restrictions. That it didn't deny their kids' friendships,
but it actually helped them build really good and strong
friendships with their peers.

Speaker 1 (26:01):
It would not be the first time on this podcast
that I say the Amish have had a lot of
right ideas. In fact, I know, I know we have
Almish people that listen to this podcast. If you're trying
to get a gift for someone that you think has everything,
how about a special video message from me. It's easy
to do. Go to cameo dot com slash Granger Smith

(26:23):
and you put in the prompt what you want me
to say. I get that message on my phone. I'll
say happy birthday, happy anniversary, whatever personalized message you want
me to say to whoever you want me to say
it to. I send it to you and you give
it to them. It's pretty cool. Go to cameo dot
com slash Granger Smith. I listen to your interview with
doctor Moeler, whom I love, and Amber and I both

(26:45):
love the Mohlers and Mary and doctor Moeller. But but
at some level it's you know, listening to that and
he has no charity for kids with screens or parents.
It's just like we go to a restaurant and Mary
and I saw a family and everyone has tablets and
they're just like zombies and the parents are disconnected and

(27:07):
at some level, I'm hearing that as just you know,
out of touch grandpa, even though he's right. But let's
talk Let's talk to not the not the grandparents, but
let's talk to parents right now that are in the
fight that go I hear this, I want to engage.
It's it's difficult for me, and thank goodness, in this book,

(27:28):
you have practical ways that these parents could hear. So
let's let's talk about I guess let's talk about feast, right. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (27:35):
I was just to say one thing what I love
about the book is it is so practical, and you
have so many different families that you've talked to and
interviewed that are in different stages of what.

Speaker 3 (27:43):
They've already allowed.

Speaker 4 (27:44):
And you know, you talk about fasting, and you know
you want maybe try a thirty day fast, or try
a seven day fast, and even if it's so much
addiction where they're on their phone all day long, try
a ten minute walk, you know. So that's just some
of the practical things that I've loved about reading in
this is that we're all in different stages of what
we've already allowed. A lot of us might feel stuck
or that like, oh gosh, I'll never be able to

(28:04):
return from this, so how do we do that?

Speaker 2 (28:08):
Yes, I really did try to break it down really
practically for parents, And the main message I wanted to convey,
even by having that entire chapter on how to fast
how did detox from these things? Is that it's never
too late to reverse course. I think I've often just
heard from parents, Oh, you know, I wish I had
had your book three years ago. We already gave you know,
our child a smartphone, and.

Speaker 3 (28:27):
I'm like, no, read the book. It is. It is
not too late.

Speaker 2 (28:31):
Like that is the hope that I want to convey
is that so many of the families I spoke to
it wasn't like this is how they had started out,
you know, they had done actually a lot of screens
or had given smartphones and they had to reverse course.

Speaker 3 (28:43):
And what's amazing is that detoxing is possible. I mean, children's.

Speaker 2 (28:47):
Brains can be reset and their habits can be reformed.
And a lot of these families share that initially it
was really tough. I mean taking something away that a
child is so drawn to can feel like, you know,
you're just ripping off one of their limbs. Like one
mom just said, it was just it felt like excruciatingly
painful to take the screen away. But that they kept

(29:07):
going and what they saw was that their kids started
to form new habits without the screens, that they started
to have their creativity and their imagination come back, and
their ability to entertain themselves. And so I I do
try to tell parents, maybe the tech egs it seems
daunting to you to do in the long term, just
try to start with thirty days, or maybe thirty days
is too long, try to do a week, go on

(29:29):
a screen free family vacation. Like the summer is such
a great time to try a lot of these things out,
like doing a detox for thirty days over the summer
and making it something that's actually a fun family activity
that you're looking forward to, explaining to your kids why
you're doing this, and coming up with a plan of
these are all the things we're going to do instead
not on screens. We're going to do this family game night,

(29:50):
or we're going to go for a walk every night
after dinner as a family, or these are your new routines.
We're going to have chores every morning, and then you
can go play outside, then you can do reading time.
Just giving them actually like a structure and a plan
for those thirty days to try to get them excited
about all the things they're going to be doing off screens.
And it will take time. I had so many parents say,

(30:10):
you know, the first two weeks, I felt like I
had to spend a lot of time as a parent
helping my kids learn how to play, you know, reading
books to them, playing games with them. But then they're like,
we kept going, and we got to thirty days and
the kids were playing by themselves and they stopped asking
for the screens, and so we just kept going and
never looked back. And so I would just encourage parents,
like it is never too late to reverse course, you know,

(30:33):
the sooner the better, the younger the better. But just
starting out with something you can accomplish. I think anyone
can commit to doing something for thirty days and just
trying that out as the entry point to then sustaining
this type of lifestyle over the longer term.

Speaker 1 (30:48):
Of course, and what you're saying is that it's easy
to understand if you put it in different a different perspective.
It would be like saying research says that smoking for
teens is bad, and someone goes, you know, I'm forty
years old. I wish I would have known this when
I was a team because now I've been smoking the
last six years and like, no, no, we're talking to

(31:08):
you too. I mean, you could start now, so no
one would make that argument. And with anything else, Like
I wish I would have known that gambling is bad.
I've been gambling for five years. If I would have
known before, but now I guess I'll just gamble the
rest of my life or what you know, put the
bad habit in there. Screens is the same thing. So
this doesn't matter how far you've come or how long

(31:31):
your kids have been looking at a screen. Even if
your kid's a junior in high school and they're leaving
next year, you can start now, right I do. I.

Speaker 2 (31:39):
Actually, that's one of the biggest things I feel like
I have to emphasize to parents, is like.

Speaker 3 (31:42):
No, no, I'm talking to you.

Speaker 2 (31:43):
Even if you're like, well, my kid only has one
more year at home, I'm like yeah, that's one more year.
That's a whole year that you can help them form
better habits without a smartphone to set them up for
their adult life. So it's really never too late. And
I will say the older the child. If you are
then taking away a freedom that you've given a big
freedom in the virtual world, then as you take that away,

(32:05):
try to give them more freedoms in the real world,
like we were talking about earlier, Like it's it's it's
better to give them real world freedoms and responsibilities because
they are about to enter the adult world. And so
I had one dad say for them, it took a truck.
They had decided that their son could get a smartphone
starting his senior year of high school, and as soon
as they gave it to him, within days, they like

(32:28):
completely regretted the decision.

Speaker 3 (32:30):
They're like, he is drawn to that thing so compulsively.
We have made a mistake.

Speaker 2 (32:35):
And this dad told me, he's like, this is not
a parenting decision I recommend, which is like, give your
kid a smartphone and then like a week later, take
it away. But they thought it was necessary, and so
they did what they believed was right as parents. But
by taking that away. They offered their son the use
of a family truck instead, and the dad kind of
laughed telling me the story. He's like, it's ironic, but
I mean like it took actually a truck, like it

(32:57):
took giving our son a truck when we took the
smartphone away. But then he used that truck to start
a moving business with his brother over the summer. He
made money, who built a lot of self confidence and
hard work and work ethic, learning to drive, learning to
start this business. And so I do think that's kind
of It's just it's a good way of thinking about it.
Is like, Okay, if we are taking away something that

(33:17):
felt like such a huge privilege to our kids, this
marker of progressing towards adulthood, to give them a smartphone, well,
then instead give them something in the real world that
is really truly helping them progress towards adulthood, something in
real life, more freedoms in the real world, more responsibilities
that will help them progress towards adulthood. And so that
would be the advice. I recommend that it's not too late,

(33:39):
even for teens, but particularly for teenagers. If you are
taking away a smartphone trying to think of things in
the real world you could replace that with that will
actually allow them more freedoms that help them actually develop
the skills you want them to have.

Speaker 1 (33:54):
And so for that, for that, I know abern are
both like, well, we have so many questions, you know,
like vying for the attention here. But for this instance,
are you giving the kid a flip phone or a
dumb phone for communication?

Speaker 3 (34:06):
For driving?

Speaker 1 (34:08):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (34:08):
Yeah, yeah, And I talk about that as well.

Speaker 2 (34:10):
That a lot of what these families had in common
was they really delayed the age of first cell phone
as long as possible, like, you know, does this kid
really need a phone, or or can they use the
phone at school?

Speaker 3 (34:20):
Can they use a friend's phone.

Speaker 2 (34:22):
But for a lot of parents that the big marker
of when they did need a cell phone was they
started driving. They were going to be somewhere independent in
the car, and so what if they broke down or
you know, had an emergency. They wanted them to be
able to call. And so when they then did get
that child a first phone, it was a non smartphone.
Some families, Yeah, they said it was like a track
phone that they had in the car and it stayed

(34:43):
in the car and they could just use it when
they were in the car driving for emergencies. Other families
opted for some of these alternatives I mentioned, like a
gab phone or bark phone or pinwheel phone. There's even
a phone called the ys phone invented by a dad
in Texas that basically it allows you to have GPS
other tools that you might need, but no internet browser,

(35:04):
no social media, no games like super limited apps that
are truly just tools. And so a lot of you know,
families found that to be a helpful alternative for when
a child started driving and legitimately had communication needs and
in some cases, you know, navigation needs, they wanted their
child to have GPS.

Speaker 1 (35:22):
That's great. So you are an advocate for some of
the dumb phones that are becoming more and more popular
in and that they're functioning better now. It was like
three or four years ago we saw these ads stop
propping up with these different phones and the minimalist phones
for adults, and then people realized that this actually could
be really good for a teenager that's driving, and you.

Speaker 3 (35:43):
Know, yeah, that's right.

Speaker 2 (35:44):
No, the options are so great now, I mean better
than they even were three years ago, as you mentioned,
and I would just say every family has to know
their kids and what's going to be helpful or not
for them. I have a have had a couple families
say even some of the alternative smartphones they felt like
wasn't good for their child. They were still kind of
addicted to the texting and so they you know, So

(36:06):
I think it's just it's important to say, yes, like
an alternative phone is way better than a smartphone. Even then,
I think you have to watch your child and how
they're using it, and again trying to protect them from
something that's becoming addictive or compulsive to them, and then
rethinking then how you're going to handle those types of boundaries,
whether or not then they truly need a super dumb

(36:26):
phone like a track phone, or putting other boundaries around
it would be important.

Speaker 1 (36:31):
Is this that much different than that the nineteen seventies
with television and the uproar of parents, And I mean,
I certainly think it is. I just wanted to hear
from you.

Speaker 4 (36:45):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (36:46):
People always make this comparison for me. They're like, but
everyone freaked out about television and it wasn't that bad.
And my two responses are like, well, have you actually
read all the literature about television because it's not good.
I mean this like, too much television is not good
for kids development or their vocabulary or they're learning. So
in some ways, I think some of the scare around

(37:07):
television was a bit merited that too much television is
certainly not good for kids development. But then the second
thing I say is this is much different than what
we saw with television. A television set stays in a
specific location in your house. Even when it first came out,
too there were limited programming options. It wasn't this infinite

(37:29):
stream of entertainment that you could be constantly jumping between
different streaming platforms and apps. But then also, the smartphone
is a device that actually travels with you. So it's
not just a television that stays in your living room,
but it's a device that comes travels in with you
in your pocket twenty four to seven, and has way
greater functionality than a television. I mean, it's like a

(37:50):
supercomputer that has every possible app portal to the Internet
that's on your person twenty four to seven. And so no,
we've not ever seen a technolog quite like this, because
it is ever present twenty four to seven, and it
just it has basically unlimited entertainment. It's infinite scroll and

(38:11):
kids are just switching between apps constantly. There was some
study that was like the average time a kid spends
is like thirty seconds before they switch to something else.

Speaker 3 (38:20):
So I mean their.

Speaker 2 (38:21):
Attention spans are just being completely undermined because they don't
need to sustain attention on anything for a certain amount
of time. They can just jump to the next app
and see if there's new notifications there.

Speaker 3 (38:32):
I mean, it's just it's it's.

Speaker 2 (38:34):
Endless, it's infinite, and it's the portability, the nature of
it just being constantly with a child. And the last
thing I'll say is the screen is small, and what
I try to convey the parents is is inherently secretive.
It's not as public. You can't as easily see what
your child's watching the way you could on the family
television set, So it's really difficult for parents to see

(38:55):
into and it even conveys to the child this sense
of this individualized entertainment. So what I often tell parents
is if you want to enjoy screen entertainment as a family,
like the bigger the screen, the better, make it a
shared experience, something that you're all partaking in together. You know,
the tablet, the smartphone is such an highly individualized experience.

(39:16):
It's really dividing family relationships, and it becomes so highly
personalized to the user. The algorithms that make it so
addictive become so highly personalized. And so I also try
to just convey that in a lot of ways, like
the medium is the message that the smartphone device actually
even just the mode of technology that it is, tells

(39:40):
a child that the world revolves around them. I mean,
it really makes them think that everything in life is
just for their own entertainment and pleasure, that they can
scroll constantly, that they can be constantly amused and entertained.

Speaker 1 (39:52):
So make a theological argument there, right, yeah.

Speaker 2 (39:56):
No, so I yes, So for Christian parents especially, I
try to explain, like the technology is not neutral, even
if you think you're controlling the content on the screen
or the time limits, but the mode of the technology itself,
because of how highly individualized it is, and that its
entire purpose is for just constant entertainment and amusement, It

(40:18):
communicates to a child that life is all about them.
And if we're thinking about this as Christian parents, like
my greatest goals for my children is for them to
love and know God and to love others. I mean,
those are the two great commandments, and that is the
life I'm trying to train my children into. I recognize
I can't control their soul, but I want to try
to lay the groundwork to train them towards what I

(40:40):
want for them. What I know is the path to
true human flourishing. I mean, it's so clear from the Bible,
this is what humans were made to do. We were
made to worship and glorify God, to love and know Him,
and then to love others. And the screen just inherently
undermines a parent's job and calling and what they're trying
to do in that because screen teaches them to love themselves.

Speaker 3 (41:02):
I mean, it's even like the social media apps.

Speaker 2 (41:04):
You're projecting yourself out there for feedback and approval from
other people, and the algorithms are trying to learn you
and learn exactly what you like so it can feed
more of that content to you. And so just the
nature of the technology itself just teaches kids that life
is for entertainment, it's for their own pleasure, it's not
for service to God or service to others, and it's

(41:25):
just an inherently self centered technology. And I think you know,
any parent, if you think about it, you're like, well,
of course, I don't want my child to be self centered.
But just even the nature of the dopamine too, it
just it creates this addiction that just caves a child
in on themselves when we're trying to train them to
lift their eyes up to know and love God and
to lift their eyes out to look at the world

(41:47):
around them and to see how they can serve and
love and meet the needs of the people in their lives.
And so that is what I especially want Christian parents
to understand, is that our calling as Christian parents and
what we're trying to train our children into to be
worshipers of God is undermined by the nature of the
technology itself, regardless of the kinds of content on the screen.

Speaker 1 (42:09):
And knowing and worshiping God results in our joy and
contentment in our create and in the way that we
are created, in our created order to worship our creator
and to love him and to know Him brings us
joy and contentment and rest and peace. And we know
that I don't need to convince anyone that the opposite

(42:30):
of that and self reflection and self obsession and self
entertaining and in the small devices does not lead to
rest and peace and joy. It does quite the opposite.
That's the easiest argument I could make to anyone, whether
you're a Christian or not. So and I know that

(42:52):
underlying all of this work for you is that, I mean,
it's it's a heart. You have a heart for for
loving people, because because you love God and yes, and
so how could you be best suited to show people
where true joy is? And you have found this niche,

(43:14):
which I think is is fantastic to say, Look, here's
a way that you could you could find true rest
in your life. You could get rid of this anxiety
that's crippling you. Here's a really effective way. And it's
with your phone. It's with your smartphone or your device
or your screen, which is which is not the irony
is not lost that people are watching this right now

(43:35):
on a device. So there are there are, there are positives.
We have to say that. But but when it comes
to kids, this is convicting for me.

Speaker 4 (43:47):
I mean too. And I was just going to say
in your book, you say, as parents, we can go
and talk to our kids and say, look, Mommy and
Daddy thought we knew what we were doing, and we
made a mistake to change something that's right, and that's
that's it's okay I do and that's good to do
for them.

Speaker 2 (44:03):
It is it's good to model that humility as parents.
I mean, I have to confess to my kids all
the time for mistakes I've made or sins I've committed
against them. I think it's a great thing to model
as a parent. And yeah, like we were talking about earlier,
you know, it's never too late to pivot and make
a change as parents. You know, we are doing the
best we can with the information we have at the time,
trying to live in wisdom, and when we get new

(44:26):
information and new insights, you know, that often should lead
us to make a change when we realize, oh, we
didn't realize this thing was harmful for you, Like we're
going to change that, and we can actually apologize and
say I'm sorry, I didn't realize. You know that this
tool that we've given you, this technology, is just too
powerful for you to have and to operate maturely at
this age, and so we're gonna take it away, and

(44:47):
you know, I'm sorry that that's going to be it's
initially going to be uncomfortable for you, but I'm doing
this because I love you and I know that this
is what's going to be best for you. And I'm
asking you, you know, ask your parent for you to
trust me, right, because our children like that's what's so important,
is that they know that their parents are for their good,
even if they don't love those decisions we're making at
the time. These families that I spoke with all just

(45:10):
communicated that their decisions around technology were all done in
this context of love and these relationships of trust with
their kids, and that it wasn't just that they were
telling them, we're not giving you a smartphone, but they
actually explained why they really sought to educate their kids
on the harms and the dangers because they also wanted
their children to be aware of these things because they
know that they're going to have to navigate digital temptations

(45:33):
as an adult.

Speaker 3 (45:34):
And so it's both.

Speaker 2 (45:35):
I try to explain to parents, we're both protecting them
because that's our job as parents to do everything we
can to protect our kids from something we know is harmful.
And we do that, you know, by not giving them
a smartphone and social media, but.

Speaker 3 (45:46):
We're also trying to prepare them.

Speaker 2 (45:47):
We want them to make wise decisions as adults, and
so that's I spend a whole chapter in the book
kind of talking about that. How do we explain and
educate and then exemplify through our own use of technology
as parents the kind of relationship we want our children
to ultimately have with these technologies when they are adults.
And that is both done by not giving them something

(46:09):
that's too powerful for them before they are at an
age where they can maturely operate it, but it's also
preparing them by having all these conversations around those decisions,
because we want our kids to ultimately buy into those
decisions for themselves when they do leave our homes.

Speaker 1 (46:23):
That probably means we shouldn't reward kids with screen time
or punish our kids by taking away screen time. That
would kind of undermine this whole conversation. Yeah, could I
ask you, Claire, so what is your personal routine with devices?
I mean, especially right now book release, you're doing a
lot of interviews and podcasts. How are you operating through

(46:47):
navigating through this season?

Speaker 2 (46:49):
Yeah, I'm so glad you asked me, And that is
something I do think that as parents, right, like we
want to exemplify and so this book should cause us
to really reflect on our own relationships with technology. So
I just want to say, like, I've been convicted and
have changed a lot of my practices over the course
of writing this book, over the course of doing this research,
So I don't want to portray that I've had this

(47:09):
all figured out. I'm very much on this journey myself
and I'm constantly re evaluating it. It's one of the
conversations they feel like Caleb and I have the most,
is like how are we doing at distancing ourselves from
our devices? But some practices we've developed is we have
a phone box in our family that we try to
leave our phones in when we are at home with
our kids when we come home to just actually physically

(47:30):
separate ourselves from them so they're not always on us.
We also really try to practice like having a day
a week where we're really off of our phones. Normally
for us, that's usually like Saturday or Sunday, where we
just try to actually be off our phones like the
whole day, just kind of put them away for the
entire day so we can really be present with our kids.

Speaker 3 (47:50):
And our family.

Speaker 2 (47:51):
I also try to do as much as possible, like
on a computer. So I personally gave up my smartphone
I think about two years ago. Now I have it's
not quite a minimalist phone. It's like a healthy phone.
It's called the Wise phone. So it has some limited
apps on it, like GPS and some other things that
I genuinely need. But it doesn't have an Internet browser

(48:12):
or email, and so I really can't do very many
things on it. I have to wait for a time
to do those things on a computer, and so I
often then wait and do those at a time when
my kids are asleep taking naps, or they go down
to bed for the night, or yeah, or even if
I have to do something on a computer while they're awake,
it's a lot easier for them to see what I'm doing.

(48:34):
The computer screen is just a lot bigger, and I'll explain,
I'm like, I'm sorry, mommy has to send a quick email.
I'm going to open my computer, I'm gonna send the email,
and then I'm going to close it, like I'm not
going to get stuck down a rabbit hole.

Speaker 3 (48:45):
The way they think it's just really easy to on
a phone and.

Speaker 2 (48:47):
So I talk about these kind of practices we can
develop as parents of having just more technological transparency with
our kids. And so I opt for making phone calls
as much as i can, more than texting, because because
it's easier for my kids to understand what I'm doing
on the phone if I'm talking to someone versus texting,
or if I'm texting, I'm often narrating it to my kids.

(49:08):
I know that kind of sounds crazy, but I want
them to I want them to understand what I'm doing
and actually be learning communication skills from me, you know,
like I'll tell my son, I'm texting so and So's
mommy that we're coming to meet them at the park,
you know, and then he's like, oh, Okay, that's what
she's doing, you know, on her phone. It's not such
a black box to my kids. So those are some
of our practices. I know a lot of other families

(49:30):
I spoke to also, they actually got a landline phone
because they didn't want to have to be kind of
tethered to their devices or even have them next to
their beds. They wanted to be able to sleep away
from their cell phones, so they got a landline in
case of emergencies, and they actually physically sleep a distant
from their cell phones, and so I wouldn't even do
that an alarm clock, There's.

Speaker 1 (49:50):
No way I would even get a landline. For hundreds
and thousands of years, people have sleppt away from a phone. Yeah,
they've dealt with emergency.

Speaker 2 (50:01):
It sounds so strange to us now, but yeah, so
I think just trying to where we can. I explain
to parents, it doesn't mean you have to give up
your own smartphone, but I would encourage you to kind
of ruthlessly eliminate apps on your phone and just ask
yourself if this has to be legitimately done on a
smartphone or if you can just wait and do that
on a computer at a time when you're not, like

(50:21):
out with your kids. Because I think the temptation towards efficiency,
at least that's what I found in myself, was just
too powerful with the smartphone, because I felt like if
I was out at the park with my kids, I
could also be placing Amazon order I needed to make.
We're also responding to an email, and so really just
trying to separate those things so I can be more
present with my kids is something we really strived for.

Speaker 1 (50:43):
We're not getting more time.

Speaker 4 (50:45):
You know.

Speaker 1 (50:45):
It's like, like you said, you can go to the
park and multitask and take care of that Amazon order,
but somehow we're not gaining time when we do that,
Like where's all the time? We're not getting any more
of it. But what you're saying is it's encouraging because
you're you're not the global warming activist that's taking the
private jet all over the world. You know, You're you're saying, hey, look,
I'm preaching this and I'm also living it at the

(51:06):
same time.

Speaker 2 (51:08):
I'm really striving to live it, not perfectly, but you know,
step by step trying to do that. And I think,
like what you were saying too, it's we're not getting
more time, but we're also like when you're multitasking, you're
missing out on so much. Like giving up my smartphone,
I realized all the moments that I honestly was just
missing by staring down at a phone. It's just it's
so different to be fully present with the people that

(51:30):
you're with in whatever situation you're with, like delighting in
my children and what they're doing, and it's just it's
you don't even know what you're missing when you're looking
down at a screen until you take it away, and
then you kind of lift your eyes up and you're
like wow. When I was on my phone placing those
Amazon orders, like I was missing real life happening right
in front of me.

Speaker 1 (51:48):
I wonder where this is all going, you know, Like
I know that this will be, this podcast will be,
this conversation will probably be irrelevant in forty thirty forty years,
but it will only be replaced by something maybe even
more sinister than what we have. We won't always hold
a device that'll change quickly. But I wonder where this is.
Where it's going, I mean, or it's going to be

(52:10):
a chip in the brain, you know, neurolink in the
brain or something. But it has to start now. We
have to we have to learn to tether ourselves or
to sever ourselves.

Speaker 3 (52:20):
Now, yes, I do.

Speaker 2 (52:23):
I do explain that to parents when I'm talking about
the book, because I'm sure you're following, like the Rise
of AI. I get asked a lot about AI and
the harms of that to kids, and I would just say, listen,
like AI is grafting on to the attention economy, and
so what that means is it's it's there's a profit
model behind it, and the products then are being integrated

(52:44):
with social media and smartphones again to make them highly
immersive and addictive to us. I mean, AI is only
going to make these things more addictive because it's going
to learn us, it's going to be more individualized, and sadly,
it's going to mimic more like a human interaction. We're
seeing that with these AI chatbots and kids, and it's
so difficult for children to discern that it's not a

(53:06):
real person that's talking to them, this is a computer.
And so I think I just explained to parents, like
the tech exit is more urgent than ever they like
you were saying, like these problems aren't going away. In fact,
they're only going to get worse as AI is integrated
into all these things that are already existing and just
make it even more addictive and immersive. And my fear

(53:29):
is that as much as the virtual world often feels
more like reality to kids in the real world, like
we were talking about with the desensitization, and they're just
kind of living in this virtual world, that's only going
to increase the more that these AI technologies, the metaverse
and things make the virtual world more immersive to a child.

(53:50):
And so I would just urge parents that the time
to kind of say no to smartphones and social media
is now. They're only going to become more dangerous to
our kids.

Speaker 1 (54:01):
Kids that were born what two thousand and say thirteen
or fourteen would have been children that are born that
this is all they've ever known. Is And I know
cell phones have been around, lock iPhones have been around
a lot longer, but I'm saying, as far as everyone
has them in their hand, to a child born after
what twenty thirteen, it's just that's all they've known. Yes, Yeah,

(54:26):
it's scary stuff.

Speaker 2 (54:28):
Yeah, And not to be like too dramatic, but I've
I actually have a lot of hope for this kind
of rising generation of parents because we have more information
than the last generation did. I really actually feel for
the parents who got social media and smartphones thrown at
them and when their kids were in the teen years
and they just had no idea the harms behind them.
So I just want to encourage parents. Like part of

(54:49):
the reason that I was so excited to write this
book is I'm like, we actually like have the tools now,
like we have the information, the research to show is, Okay,
these things are harmful, and we have the example of
other parents to say, well, actually it's possible to not
do these things. And so but I do just try
to emphasize then, like to this rising generation that we
grew up without smartphones, but that's pretty quickly going to

(55:11):
change in the generations of parents coming behind us, and
kind of in some sense, I almost feel like we're
kind of the last chance generation, Like we're the last
generation of parents who remembers a childhood without smartphones surrounding them.
And so I'm like, if we can't do this for
our kids, like, how are we going to pave the
way for the generations behind us that have grown ups

(55:31):
completely surrounded by smartphones. So all of to say is
I do feel like I have a lot of hope
with these the newer generations of parents because of the
awareness that we now have and the research that we
now have. And I would just say to you, like,
we have to do this because of the sake of
the generations of parents coming behind us who are not
going to have the memories that we do of a

(55:52):
childhood without smartphones in everybody's hands. And so I do
think we're kind of at a tipping point, is how
I feel, and I'm hoping that this book will help
tip our culture in the right direction.

Speaker 1 (56:04):
Oh that's so good. I mean we are the last
We're the last ones to say, read a book, ride
a bike, play with Plato, draw a picture, climb a tree,
build a fort. Yeah, we're the last ones that could
say we didn't have it and we're just fine.

Speaker 3 (56:21):
Okay, yeah, that's right.

Speaker 1 (56:24):
So how do we how do we how do we
wrap this up? Because I feel like we could just.

Speaker 3 (56:29):
We could go on with this first.

Speaker 1 (56:30):
It's amazing. It's such an amazing conversation.

Speaker 4 (56:33):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (56:34):
The other day, Lincoln, our eleven year old, said, Daddy,
could I get on your iPad and look at chat
GBT after I do my math homework to see if
I'm right? And I was like no. He's like why,
I just want to see if I did it right
or if there's another way to do the math problem.
I'm like no, he said, but why, And I said,
because you don't have a fully developed brain, so you

(56:54):
don't need another brain telling your brain what to do.

Speaker 2 (56:57):
So that it's funny think storations do it before you
learned the right answer. When you handed your homework in,
like I don't know, like you know, yeah, yeah, yeah,
how to wrap this up? I guess, you know, there's
so much more to be said. I would encourage people,
like if you're if you're wondering how to do this,

(57:17):
like try just truly like read the book The Tech
Exit because there are just so many examples and stories
I give of how families have done this to give
you the courage and hope to do this in your
own family. But I would just really encourage parents to
talk to other parents, like I want to help create
communities that are doing this together, because there is power

(57:38):
in numbers, and you know, for every parent that opts out,
you make it easier on the next parent, And so
I would just encourage you to even think about, you know,
reading this book with a group of other parents. I
wrote a discussion guide to accompany the book that's available
at the tech exit dot com because I wanted actually
groups of parents in churches, in schools and neighborhoods like

(57:58):
reading this together because my hope is really to spark
a movement that changes the culture. Because we didn't truly
get into all the details of this, but you know,
there are actually some harms of these technologies that even
individual families can't fully shield our kids from. Like, I'm
very aware that the entire social dynamics and social environment
for kids these days are affected by social media and smartphones,

(58:21):
even for the kids that are on them, and I
don't want to accept that as the answer. I want
parents to come together and provide the collective solutions that
we need to really push these things out of childhood
entirely so that we do preserve an in person social
environment for our kids. And so I just would encourage
other parents, like, you know, don't be afraid to do this,

(58:43):
but also like don't do it alone, like really truly
talk to other parents and invite them to do this
with you, because I think almost any parent doesn't want
to give their kids a smartphone social media. Like I
never met a parent who said that they like intentionally
wanted them to learn how to like use this technology.
It was always they felt pressured into it. And so
I want parents to know that they can like break

(59:04):
free from this trap and so invite other parents to
do this with you. I think a lot of parents
feel stuck and just that invitation to say, hey, we're
doing this do you want to you know, opt out
with us, Like, let's do this together our families so
our kids will both not be on smartphones.

Speaker 3 (59:18):
I think so many parents are just.

Speaker 2 (59:20):
Waiting, you know, they're eager to do this and they
just need the invitation and the help to know how
to do it.

Speaker 1 (59:27):
So for people that don't read the book, do you
have like a thirty second summary on TikTok or something
that we could like, you know, just kidding, No, no, no,
No'm just kidding. We're going to link the tech Exit.
We're going to leak the the place to find this
book on in our description here and then you know
what I hope from you, Claire, is that let's see

(59:49):
in thirteen years, when your first one graduates, you could
start either have another book ready to go on how
it went, how the eighteen years went at home with
no no screens and no devices, because that would be
a great follow up.

Speaker 3 (01:00:05):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:00:06):
I almost feel like I should tell my eighteen year
old that he should write that book. Yeah, tell me
how it was living as a tech exit kid all
those eighteen years.

Speaker 1 (01:00:15):
I like we're going to look forward to that book
in a decade. Yeah, yeah, Clai, thank you. I know
your time is valuable and you've given some to us,
and I just I appreciate you so much, so much
for your heart in this, your heart for children and
families and all the research and all this, so many
interviews and so many hours that you've put in for
so that we could all reap the benefits of that.

(01:00:38):
So thank you. Your work is so valuable for us.

Speaker 3 (01:00:42):
Oh, thank you.

Speaker 2 (01:00:43):
I appreciate that. Thank you both so much for having me.
Really enjoyed getting to talk with you all.

Speaker 1 (01:00:48):
Thank you so much for hanging out with me on
this episode of the Grangersmith podcast. I appreciate you being here.
If you're listening right now, go ahead and rate today's podcast.
It helps more folks find the show. And if you're
tuning in on the iHeartRadio app, you could actually set
this podcast as one of your presets, which is cool
that way. I'm just one tap away. If you're watching
on YouTube, don't forget to hit like and subscribe so
you don't miss any new episodes. And if you've got

(01:01:10):
a question you want answered right here on the show,
just email me podcast at grangersmith dot com. I'd love
to hear from you. Thanks again for being here. We'll
see you next time, ye ye

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How Smartphones Are Rewiring Your Kid’s Brain (And What You Can Do About It) | Clare Morell

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