November 3, 2025 • 60 mins
This week, Granger and AntMan dive into one of the most debated topics in American Christianity today — Christian nationalism. The phrase is used everywhere, but few agree on what it actually means. Is it simply loving your country, or is it trying to merge faith and politics into one? Granger and AntMan unpack the confusion by looking at the history, definitions, and different viewpoints surrounding the movement.
As they talk through how patriotism can cross the line into idolatry, Granger reflects on his own story — from singing songs about America to learning what it means to put Christ above every national or political identity. Together, they explore how cultural pride, fear, and comfort can quietly pull believers away from the gospel, even when the intentions seem good.
Throughout the episode, the conversation stays grounded in Scripture. Granger and AntMan remind listeners that God’s kingdom isn’t tied to a flag or a political system, and that Christians are called to live with humility and love in whatever nation they’re placed. It’s an honest and needed discussion about faith, country, and where our true allegiance belongs.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Okay, we're gonna go down a rabbit hole here. We're
gonna talk about a subject that no, lie, if I
say too much, could get me canceled. But I think
it's gonna be worth it. And yes, Islam has something
to do with this.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Welcome to the show.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
We have an interesting topic to run down today. You're
gonna get a glimpse into man and ize our text, messages, conversations.
Almost daily, we're walking through these type of topics, and
so it's interesting when we do a podcast like this,
people are really just kind of taking a peek into
things that we already unpack.
Speaker 3 (00:46):
And you get to see last week's like Wednesday episode
where we responded to videos. It kind of starts with
those and then moves into a conversation.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
Very much so we'll see that, we'll see a topic
or something come up, somebody's that says something, and then
you and I will talk and.
Speaker 4 (01:04):
And this time we hit record.
Speaker 1 (01:06):
And this time we actually hit record, although we have
talked for thirty or forty five minutes at maybe maybe
an hour before we've hit record. Today, but we're going
to bring people in on a topic that is I
believe highly controversial and and I have. I have thought
(01:26):
that there are certain aspects of this topic that if
I actually said in the public, I would get canceled,
not because not because it's dangerous to say what I'm saying,
but simply because it would be taken out of context.
Speaker 3 (01:43):
Yes, and that's happened to you before, happened a conversation
you know I had before we started on.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
You could say, you could say an entire thesis that
that's five to ten minutes long, and you could take
one line out of it and take it out of context.
It could be used as a weapon against me. But
not because once again, not because the person hearing it
would disagree if they actually knew the context, because it
(02:10):
was STRAWMND and taken taken out of context. So what
are we talking about here? And lead us into something here?
Speaker 4 (02:16):
Okay?
Speaker 3 (02:17):
So something that I personally have had an issue with
that I didn't talk a lot about. But then I started,
you know, when when Body passed away, I started listening
and watching some of his videos and he addressed this,
and I thought, oh, this is interesting.
Speaker 4 (02:38):
Here is a.
Speaker 3 (02:40):
Different race, black preacher and he is being asked if
he is a Christian nationalist. I've heard it used, and
more times than not, I've heard that phrase used in
a you don't want to be this?
Speaker 4 (02:58):
Or man, can you believe? Those? Was Christian nationalists?
Speaker 3 (03:01):
And I'm like, if I'm being honest, I'm not even
sure what you mean by that.
Speaker 1 (03:04):
Which the same thing. Vodie argues like, I have to
figure out what you mean by that question. Yeah, and
then Charlie kirk Thing has kind of elevated discussions.
Speaker 3 (03:13):
And that's and that really is like, oh, those who
agreed with with Charlie, those are Christian nationalists And it's
have you ever been called a name, like a derogatory name?
Speaker 4 (03:23):
You're like, am I supposed to be? Am I supposed
to be offended? I'm not sure.
Speaker 3 (03:27):
I'm not even sure what you mean, but like, am
I supposed to like no, no, no, that's not me?
Speaker 4 (03:31):
Or am I like?
Speaker 3 (03:32):
Well maybe I am? Or it's like did you just
insult me? I can't tell because you don't know. And
that's kind of how I felt about this. I'm like, well,
I love my country, I love my God more does
that make me one?
Speaker 4 (03:43):
I'm not sure?
Speaker 3 (03:44):
So you and I've had conversations about this, what it
means to be that and.
Speaker 1 (03:49):
It's also why we didn't title the podcast. That's because
it's you could widely misinterpret what we even mean.
Speaker 3 (03:56):
So we can look at the title and go, I'm
skipping that because that it's not what I am, or
I don't care about that. Well, the point of it was, well,
there's actually many different definitions, and you could be unknowingly
or you could be knowingly you don't know, or I
didn't at least, but I'll just speak from.
Speaker 1 (04:13):
My Yeah, So I'm sitting here. I typically have had
some lately, we've had some notes. You and I don't
have any notes today, just the Bible. You have some
things that you've looked up, So why don't we do
it this way? You define Christian nationalism.
Speaker 3 (04:28):
There's really three different definitions of what people mean by
that by that title.
Speaker 1 (04:33):
And what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna do the
best I can. I'm gonna listen to what you're saying
and then and think about think biblically about those definitions,
see where it lines up where it doesn't. And this
is one of these podcasts where I could, especially if
you're listening right now and you want to comment below,
do that because I'm gonna think as you're talking, I'm
(04:55):
gonna try to find some places in the Bible we
can align with. And then tomorrow might come and you know,
I might wake up tomorrow, gough. I missed something. I
didn't say something, which is the danger of not having
any notes. But let's run it this way.
Speaker 4 (05:10):
That is our conversation.
Speaker 1 (05:11):
This is just a conversation between you and I. Let's
do it, which is.
Speaker 3 (05:14):
Three, So we'll call them A, B, and C. A
would be your civic identity definition. I'll explain that here
in a minute. The second one, or B would be
faith based slash theological critique definition. And the third one
or C would be sociological or political power definition. Just
off those titles kind of gives you an area, an
(05:35):
idea of what direction these go in.
Speaker 1 (05:36):
Let's start with A, so before we get into that.
So what we're talking about here is we're trying to
see if where loving America begins to intersect with faith,
there you go and therefore becomes dangerous to your maturity
(05:57):
in Christ and possibly even tru mental to your faith
because because of what it could become an idol exactly.
Speaker 3 (06:05):
And I think that's what we'll get to is that
if you're if if your definition aligns with one that
has parody of the nation with that of Christ's kingdom,
You're going to be in a big issue.
Speaker 4 (06:20):
You're going to have a big issue.
Speaker 1 (06:21):
And the reason this is a sensitive topic for me
and you know, could get canceled then you know, that's
what we probably call this podcast is because I'm literally
the guy that sings the song America. You know, however
many years that was eleven years ago or whatever you.
Speaker 4 (06:38):
Did you did you sing that or did well?
Speaker 1 (06:40):
Zero dibbles, Jane Dibbles and so you know, ye nation.
It's kind of spawned out of this ultra ultra national
love for the red, white.
Speaker 4 (06:54):
And blue wrint.
Speaker 1 (06:56):
What do you got?
Speaker 3 (06:56):
I'll give you, uh, the first one, which is a definition,
a civic identity. Definition America is a Christian nation perspective,
that's something you've heard before.
Speaker 1 (07:08):
And that would that would not be an opinion. We
would just we would look at it as like Pakistan
is an Islamic nation, Israel is a Jewish nation. That's
what that means.
Speaker 3 (07:20):
The core idea of this is the belief that a
nation's identity or culture, cultural culture and laws should be
rooted in Christianity. Okay, so some key points here. Sees
Christianity as this as central to national identity and values.
Often promotes policies reflecting Biblical or Christian morals. Don't steal,
(07:43):
don't kill. Believes government should acknowledge or even endorse Christianity.
Speaker 4 (07:49):
Say that again. Believers believes government the government should acknowledge
or even endorse Christianity, which.
Speaker 1 (07:57):
We see, you know, God bless America.
Speaker 3 (08:00):
Views founding documents like the US Constitution as inspired by
Christian principles. Supporters may argue it perceives moral order and
national unity, and critics warn it can marginalize non Christians
and blur church state separation. That's the only kind of
key point that I would say, if I just had
(08:22):
to define myself, this is where I find myself. United
States Christian nation. Believe that, and for me, the nation
is second to the Kingdom of Christ. It is falling
in order under the headship of our Lord, and that
everything falls under that. I believe that that's what That's
(08:44):
the definition if I just said to someone was what
I would get out of it.
Speaker 4 (08:48):
Any thoughts on.
Speaker 1 (08:48):
Those, Yeah, I'm tracking. So let me start with this.
Do you believe that to be true, that we are
a Christian nation and our our our founding documents were
inspired by Christian ideals.
Speaker 3 (09:06):
You know, I'm not. I didn't study history like you
and I dead obvious in high school.
Speaker 4 (09:12):
But I didn't.
Speaker 3 (09:12):
I didn't do anything in college, and so you probably
know a little bit more about this and facts when
it comes to that. Everything that I have in the
limited research that I've done, I've always been led to believe, Yes,
our nation was it didn't want to be under the
thumb of religion, but it was under the freedom found
(09:36):
in Christ.
Speaker 4 (09:39):
That's what I got out of it.
Speaker 1 (09:40):
Okay, I yeah, I don't. I don't disagree that we
would call it, call us a Christian nation, and that
our documents, such as Declaration of Independence and that Constitution
would be inspired by Christian values. I don't say any
problem with saying that, because what we're not saying that
the founding fathers were all Christian.
Speaker 4 (10:00):
No, and I don't have to.
Speaker 1 (10:01):
Say that, Yeah, we don't have to say that for
that to be true.
Speaker 3 (10:04):
You see a lot of reflection though, and I've seen
examples of this, But I believe of judges in the Bible,
some of the reflections of that in our government today.
Examples I can't give you off hand, just in pasting
comments and other videos that I've seen, in conversations that
I've had, I've seen comparisons there that we get this
(10:26):
from this and and that's where I believe that it
was inspired by the Bible. The foundation of this country
was at least yeah, and I'm sure comments.
Speaker 1 (10:39):
Yeah, that's a rabbit hole. That's a rabbit hole. Lets
sidestep that because we don't just not necessary, I don't
think because we're going to try to watch our time here.
I'm trying to think if I should continue with this
or you go to the second one, and then.
Speaker 3 (10:58):
I think they're kind of yeah, and you can tie
some of it to character or find the parallels and
find the differences too. So b would be the faith
based slash theological critique definition, and this is a political
idolatry perspective, that being the core idea a warning that
Christian nationalism confuses faith in Christ with loyalty to a
(11:19):
country or political movement. Key points here defines it as
a distortion of the Gospel that elevates nationalism above Jesus
Kingdom or let's just say parody with Jesus Kingdom. You
know what is is is just as big as Jesus Kingdom,
as Jesus as Jesus Kingdom is our nation. It's right
(11:40):
up there, right right next to it, sitting side by side.
Speaker 1 (11:43):
And I don't think anyone actually admits that. I think
they live they live it, live it. No one says that.
Speaker 4 (11:49):
Their comments scream it.
Speaker 1 (11:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (11:52):
I think this is where it starts getting.
Speaker 1 (11:54):
No one says that. Everyone goes, you know, God first, God, God,
family country. You know, how is that the order?
Speaker 3 (12:01):
Yeah, and but you they do they say God, family country,
and instead what they do is they they're not doing
it from top to bottom.
Speaker 4 (12:11):
They're doing it from left to right.
Speaker 1 (12:12):
Oh yeah, that's a good way to look at.
Speaker 4 (12:14):
Yeah, it's just a left to right on that. Okay.
Another one often marked by exclusion, pride, or moral superiority
in the name of faith. Yeah, so think about that.
Speaker 3 (12:26):
Yep, theologically viewed as idolatry, putting country before God.
Speaker 1 (12:32):
Or like I said, always says that, But they live it.
Speaker 4 (12:35):
And that's it. Forget what I say, watch what I do.
Speaker 3 (12:38):
That's right, you know, that's where I think that that's
where you got to look at emphasizes that the Kingdom
of God transcends all earthly nations. Many pastors, theologians, and
believers warrant it harms that it harms the church's witness.
Speaker 4 (12:52):
I don't know on that part. I'd have to dig
into that a little bit.
Speaker 3 (12:54):
But the first half of that tied into a give
a me feelings on those.
Speaker 1 (13:01):
Yet.
Speaker 3 (13:01):
Okay, So see this one's sociological slash political power definition,
cultural framework, or ideology perspective. The core idea here is
a social ideology that merges national belonging with Christian, often white,
often conservative, cultural identity. Okay, okay, so some key points here.
(13:22):
It links being truly American with being Christian, often associated
with protecting perceived cultural dominance, so over other cultures values,
law and order, traditional gender roles, and patriotism as Christian virtues.
(13:43):
Uses religious language to justify political or cultural power viewed
by scholars as a threat to pluralism and democratic equality.
And then it can appear in both political movements and
social attitudes, not just churches. And the common question is
Christian nationalism about faith or about power and identity?
Speaker 1 (14:06):
Okay? So, so c encompasses a and B as well. Yeah,
you can't be C unless you're also A and B.
Speaker 3 (14:13):
Correct. It's you're combining everything. It's yeah, I think you're
right on that.
Speaker 1 (14:19):
And A is like the cleanest version of that, right.
Speaker 4 (14:21):
The cleanest, the most pure. It feels like of it being.
Speaker 1 (14:24):
Let's just saying, hey, we're a Christian nation, and when
we say that, we mean we were founded on Christian ideals.
The documents were inspired.
Speaker 4 (14:34):
Not that everybody is a Christian. Yeah, you have the
freedom of religion.
Speaker 1 (14:39):
At NASCAR events, they're gonna say Jesus.
Speaker 4 (14:42):
Yeah, they're going to say in Jesus name is Jesus.
Speaker 1 (14:44):
Name, and NASCAR race and have a prayer and they're
going to.
Speaker 4 (14:47):
Pray, and they're all gonna put their hand on their
heart for the national anthem.
Speaker 1 (14:51):
Yes, and that's something I would say that, that's something
would you would you agree? Can change? You can't change
the the inspiration of the founding documents or the way
the country.
Speaker 4 (15:02):
Started, but you can change what you do.
Speaker 1 (15:03):
But you could shoot that the whole nation could move
away from that.
Speaker 3 (15:08):
Yes, and I would say that we have, but we
have seen that and that could be a different pay.
Speaker 1 (15:13):
But we're still praying at NASCAR events gone, it's not
gone yet.
Speaker 4 (15:16):
But we're not praying at football games, and which.
Speaker 1 (15:19):
That's something that recently went away.
Speaker 3 (15:21):
Well, I mean I think probably, I think that went
away probably when we were in high school.
Speaker 4 (15:24):
Yeah, middle school. I remember that being an issue where
we did pray on one game and then next year.
Speaker 1 (15:29):
The president still says God bless America. Yes, right, yeah, yeah,
someday I would imagine someday soon that won't be said
taking off money maybe, yeah. And once again, we're not
we're not saying that the person in the office that
says that it needs to be a Christian. It's more
so a tradition that we do. It's same with the
(15:55):
NASCAR event. It doesn't mean most people at the NASCAR
race are Christian, right because the prayer said, it's just
more of a this is what we do.
Speaker 4 (16:03):
This is what we do. That's what we do. That's
a that's a yeah.
Speaker 3 (16:06):
So I think that you progressively in these three different versions,
you get more I think radicalized might be the wrong word,
but you get more radical about your opinion, if that
makes more sense. As the further you go along, It's like,
if you're not one of us, you can get out. Yeah,
you know, that's what it feels like and and listen
(16:27):
when you and that's that's been my my complaint about
the use of the phrase he or she is a
Christian nationalist. Look which one of those three are you
talking about, because they're drastically different from one from A
to C.
Speaker 4 (16:41):
Yeah, you know, you get progressively more intense.
Speaker 1 (16:45):
Yeah, So let's just talk about how we live these
things out because definitions don't matter, you know, as much.
Speaker 4 (16:52):
As the action.
Speaker 1 (16:53):
How we Yeah, what are our actions? We might say,
you know, God first and everything, but we might mean
God and my wife equally first, or God and my
kids equally first. That's the same kind of idolatry. Idolatry
for country, or idolatry for a Lamborghini, or idolatry for
a career or a dream or a kid is all idolatry.
(17:18):
It all puts something ahead of God.
Speaker 4 (17:21):
Yeah. Yeah, and it is evil, agreed.
Speaker 1 (17:26):
So let's let's kind of look through a biblical lens.
There are a lot of ways to do this. Let's
start with with thinking through something interesting. People would say,
we are blessed to live in America. Why would we
(17:51):
we should think about that? We should start there, because
it is a blessing to live in America. It is,
it is, But what do we mean by that? Because biblically,
when we look at the New Testament, after the incarnation
of the Messiah comes and becomes the fulfillment of Israel,
(18:16):
which we talked about a few podcasts ago, blessing is
no longer seen ever as material. In the New Testament,
no one says, I am blessed. The Lord has blessed me,
and you're talking about a good job, a good house,
a healthy, healthy family, a nothing material. Now in the
(18:39):
Old Testament it is, but that's a different that's a
that was leading, that was pointing to Christ. But once
the coming of Christ happens, blessing is seen differently. And so,
for instance, to receive material wealth of any kind is
now seen in the New test State as an opportunity
(19:01):
for stewardship, faithful stewardship. So you you would say, you're
you get a raise at work, it's not that. Well,
now I get more money in the bank. It's now
I have almost there's almost a burden of Now I
(19:22):
have a greater responsibility to steward this money well and faithfully,
and particularly for the vulnerable neighbors, loving your neighbor as yourself. WHOA,
that's that's a crazy thought. But I would challenge anyone
to look through, uh, look through these pages and find
(19:42):
any different. They are blessed in suffering. It's not the
only way that they're blessed in the New Testament, but
they rejoice and they count it as blessed to be
persecuted for the name of Christ.
Speaker 4 (19:57):
Yeah, I was, I was ringing that this morning when
Paul and Barnabas were.
Speaker 3 (20:05):
I forgot where they were, but they they they come
and they stone Paul. Yeah, and he gets back up.
They thought he was dead. He gets back up and
he goes back into town.
Speaker 1 (20:14):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (20:15):
And that he told He's like, hey, we should expect this,
We should expect for the sake of Christ to be
persecuted like this expected it's.
Speaker 1 (20:25):
Coming, And they counted it as a blessing.
Speaker 4 (20:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:27):
Joy So, So, which is just let's say, rather than
push past that request real quick.
Speaker 3 (20:37):
That is so contrary to two things your human nature.
Yeah yeah, the flesh in the American life. Yeah yeah,
the Americans and the American dream.
Speaker 4 (20:50):
It's the opposite.
Speaker 1 (20:51):
Yeah. So everything everything that we think in our flesh wants,
and what the American culture kind of propagates is this
idea that I need to make money so I could
retire and move to Florida and and live out my
days with my soulmate and the grandkids in my awesome condo,
(21:12):
just kind of reading books on the beach every day.
Where where? Where is that that? That's a that's foreign
to the Bible. Instead, we are we have a finite
amount of days left.
Speaker 4 (21:28):
We have.
Speaker 1 (21:28):
This life is a vapor we have. We only have,
We only have so much of an opportunity it being
called into the ministry that we're called into, and everybody
that's a Christian is in ministry. Yeah, that's that's kind
of a that's right that we need to say that.
But but there is we we should have a sense
(21:50):
of urgency that everything, everything given to us is from
the Lord and must be stewarded faithfully for the the
spread of the Gospel to all nations and the the
to be a good neighbor to anyone that we come
(22:12):
in contact with, and that would start in our house
and move out to our church and then move out
into our neighborhoods. And I'm not I'm not sitting here
talking about mission work here. That's that's a that's kind
of an overflow of of the church itself. But we
don't have that much longer me you, everyone that's listening.
(22:34):
And every day the Lord wakes us up again and
we open our eyes and we're his again. He's given
us and his sovereignty one more day, of course, and
and there's nothing more guaranteed. And so but we have
been taught by our culture to build portfolios and resumes
(22:54):
and four one k's and savings accounts and back up
savings accounts, and you know, and and you don't see that,
especially through as you read through the letters of the
New Testament, you read through the Book of Acts. In fact,
there is no there's no attachment to a country in
(23:17):
the New Testament. It doesn't mean they can't you can't
love and feel comfortable where you live, and that it
doesn't mean that you shouldn't feel like you could put
down roots and settle. But where you're settled, it's kind
of like the you know, the Lord has planted you
in a field, and we we tend to the field
(23:39):
where we're planted. And without the tending, that would be unfaithful.
So there's that that aspect of just the blessing itself
as we track. As we track, you mentioned Paul, I
think that's a good place to go. So let me
go to Acts here.
Speaker 4 (23:56):
And e Conium where they were. Yeah, because I just
opened it up and that's what YE was.
Speaker 1 (24:04):
So go let's go before Paul, we can go to
to Peter and John. I believe we're gonna go to
Acts four x one I Act four. Oh yeah, So
Peter and John, the they are, they're out there preaching
and they they heal a a beggar, a lame beggar.
(24:29):
This is this happens in chapter three of Acts. They
heal a lame beggar and it just causes all kinds
of stuff, Like people are just freaked out by this, right, yeah,
now this man and all of a sudden he's money. Yeah,
and they're they're they're not the guy. People are are like,
what this guy, these guys must be you know, like mystic,
you know, spiritist or something. This is wild. What kind
of magic could bring this guy back to life? We
(24:51):
see this a lot in the Book of Acts and
and so they're brought in. Peter and John are brought
in before the Council at the beginning of chapter four,
and the Sadducees. So as they were speaking to the
people in priest and the captain of the temple, and
the Sadducees came upon them. So the Sadducees and the
Pharisees were the ruling bodies, the ruling governance of the
(25:15):
Jewish people, whause we're in Jerusalem here as we're talking
about this story. I'm not in a verse yet, just
talking about the beginning of chapter four. So they arrest them.
They have the power to arrest. They are the ruling
governance here. They arrest Peter and John because they're out
(25:35):
there speaking, and verse three says, and they arrested them
and put them in custody until the next day, for
it was already evening. But many of those who had
heard the word believed, and the number of the men
came to about five thousand. The church is growing, and
it's growing by preaching. People are hearing and believing, right,
(25:57):
so they're proclaiming the Gospel. People hear it and they believe.
At this point, Peter and John don't have any other
interest in life than being faithful and this mission, this
ministry to tell people to be reconciled to God. God
is calling all people to be reconciled to Him. Turn
(26:18):
from yourself, turn from your idols, and turn from Him.
And then now on the next day, they're rulers and
elders and scribes gathered together in Jerusalem, and Annas the
high priest, and Caiaphist, and John and Alexander and all
who are there in the high priestly family. This is
the whole body, the whole ruling body gets together, and
(26:38):
they're really angry at this. They pulled Peter in. He's
filled with the Holy Spirit. He tells them what he's doing.
He tells them the gospel. He says, Jesus Christ, whom
you crucified, you know. He calls them out verse thirteen.
Now the people saw the boldness of Peter and John
and perceived that they were uneducated common men, that they
(27:00):
were astonished. They recognized they'd been with Jesus. So they
saw this boldness of this same Peter that denied Jesus
in the garden just virtual weeks before this, right, So
they warn them down, I'm just kind of skimming here.
Verse seventeen. They warn them, do not speak of this anymore.
Stop talking about this Jesus thing. Don't do it. You
(27:23):
know we're giving you a command from governing authorities. Don't
do this anymore. Charge them not to speak or teach
at all in the name of Jesus. That's verse eighteen
and verse nineteen. Peter and John answered them, whether it
is right on the side of God to listen to
you rather than to God, you must judge, for we
cannot but speak of what we have seen and heard.
(27:43):
They are astonished by this boldness. And then if we
go to chapter five, this story kind of continues because
now these guys have this reputation. And chapter five, verse eighteen,
they arrested the apostles and put them in public prison.
So now these guys are still out preaching. They have
now gone against what has been said. But notice when
(28:07):
these guys get arrested, they don't resist the arrest. That's
an interesting thing we should see. There's never a resisting
of arrest. We will see Paul later in a few
chapters get let down in a basket outside of the
window when they know that they might be coming for them.
But then later Paul submits to being arrested. So you
(28:30):
see that they are boldly proclaiming Christ against the ruling authorities,
saying that we can't, we can't but speak Christ. But
when they come to arrest them and beat them, they submit.
They don't fight, They don't resist this. They don't run,
(28:51):
they don't form a militia, they don't form an army.
They don't even flee. They just go take me. But
I'm just telling you, I'm I'm gonna keep speaking Christ. Right,
you're gonna take me. So in this instance, verse twenty
twenty eight, saying we strictly charged you not to preach
(29:11):
in the name. Yet you have, you have fuilled Jerusalem
with your teaching, and you intend to bring this man's
blood upon us. But Peter and the apostles answered, we
must obey God rather than men. Okay, So still they're
being bold in this way, but they don't resist the
governing authorities. This is so interesting, and it's so anti American.
(29:34):
Anti America says, we'll put man, I put my sword
in the sand. Come and take us. You know we
you know I've got my gun cocked ready to go.
You you come my property, I'm gonna blow your head.
You know this is the This is the mentality of
the American Christian essentially. So then if you look at
the end of Acts five, I promise I have a
(29:56):
point to this stuff. At the end of Acts five
they are in prison, and verse forty and when they
had called in the apostles, they beat them and charged
them not to speak in the name of Jesus, and
then they let them go Verse forty one. They left
(30:17):
the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were counted
worthy to suffer dishonor for the name verse forty two.
And every day in the temple and from house to
house they did not cease teaching and preaching that Christ
is Jesus. Fascinating stuff. We see this on and on
(30:41):
and on through the New Testament, especially as we can
kind of track this through the Book of Acts. They
are respectful to governing authorities, they submit to their leadership,
but they will not not preach. You know, a lot
(31:07):
of people listening to this podcast either own their own
business or they're thinking about getting into owning their own business,
but they're kind of hindered by that because they want
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If you're trying to get a gift for someone that
(32:33):
you think has everything, how about a special video message
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(32:53):
Go to cameo dot com slash granger Smith and here's
a question. So this is the point I wanted to make.
Here's the question. These men were living in a persecuted
society beyond what we could possibly imagine. I mean, this
(33:14):
would be like Afghanistan level. Maybe maybe China, I can't.
I mean, but like I'm talking Afghanistan level. Like you
say that again, you're in prison. We're going to beat you.
That kind of thing that doesn't happen in very many
countries today.
Speaker 4 (33:29):
Yeah, definitely not here.
Speaker 1 (33:31):
Definitely not here or anywhere in Europe or you know,
or any any first world country. I wouldn't think so,
but the number was growing. People were hearing it and
believing it said five thousand, and then more thousands were
(33:51):
added to the number. The church is growing and they're
seeing this boldness. And this is all happening in a
context of heavy per secution. And so the Lord works
in all of these situations. So my question to you,
and I would have to ask myself, is do I
(34:13):
do I want to this is? This is complicated. What
I want to risk? What we'll call it islam America
transitioning into an Islamic country? Would I want to resist
that and fight that for the sake of my children
(34:37):
so that my children don't grow up going to the
square in Georgetown and hearing the mosque five times a
day calling to prayer and having even even worse, let's
go even further. No, it would be dangerous to carry
a Bible. You don't want to be caught praying because
(34:59):
you're and it's somebody from a governing authority is going
to talk to you. What I when I fight that,
or what I want to propagate Where we are today
in a country where Christianity is so nominal and you
can carry your Bible but it doesn't really matter. And
(35:21):
you could pray because everybody they pray it a NASCAR events.
It doesn't mean anything. You could say. You could say God.
The President says that this is like, this is very complicated, right,
I don't I'm gonna I want to hear your answer
to this. But but what we what we see is
(35:43):
God uses these and we should probably do another podcast
to continue this idea, especially if people want further me
to explain further. But as in history, as things get
easier to worship Christ and you have more freedom to
do it, nominalism grows wild. But as it's squeezed by
(36:08):
and oppressed by a evil power, Christianity strengthens and spreads
and grows. Like we're seeing an Iran right now, We're
seeing in China right now, and what's coming this way darkness,
you know. So that's my question to you and question
anyone else that wants to comment. So your question to me,
(36:30):
my question would be resists with force politically publicly, even
with your even with your first your second amendment, right,
would you resist an onsought of any kind of oppressive ideology,
namely Islam? Yeah, because that's what I'm seeing right now
(36:54):
a lot on social media's pastures speaking out against the
rise of Islam and Muslims in America. Or should we
be so blessed to be persecuted for the name, because
it is not a blessing to live in abundance without hindrance.
(37:17):
Because God has blessed me with a beach house in
Florida and a big bank account so that I could
take vacations and retire, and they'll put a nice Bible
verse on my tombstone.
Speaker 3 (37:35):
Right the second Amendment part would be the part what
I would resist, you know, saying that I would take
up arms for I think that's really where we get
into dangerous comments and where I say in comments are
(37:56):
just comments until comments become actions. And I think there's
we were I think in that aspect, it's jumping from
A to Z. Yeah, there is, And there's conversations, there's voting, there's.
Speaker 1 (38:12):
Trying to get an answer from you. I'm more so
just as I'm cultivating. I'm cultivating for a harvest.
Speaker 3 (38:19):
Yeah, I think that, and also just just for thought.
I mean, think about it. See, I think that what
we do, we do this a lot we do a
to Z A lot, Yeah, a lot, that's and we
do we go.
Speaker 4 (38:32):
You know, by God, that ain't happening here. You know
I got I got enough am to take all care
of it all one. You don't. Have you ever seen
a tank like?
Speaker 3 (38:43):
No, you probably won't even get loaded by the time
that that that thing takes off. But the point is, like,
have you stopped responding emotionally and started thinking, Lord, I'm
gonna stop for a second and listen. What do you
have for me? What do you want for me?
Speaker 4 (38:59):
Is it persecure? Right now?
Speaker 1 (39:01):
Let's go time out and I'm not time out. Pause.
We're not saying to seek persecution. Yes, that would, that would.
That's a big difference here, and so yeah, please don't
hear me if anyone's listening seeking persecution.
Speaker 4 (39:18):
I didn't. I didn't take I didn't take that part
from you. But you know, I kind of.
Speaker 3 (39:25):
Maybe I could turn the question back around and go
because we're seeing this right now, there's a hurricane developing,
it's heading towards you. You have time to do something
about your house, and you have something to time to
do about your family and to preserve what God has
blessed you with. Yes, material things, but then other things
(39:48):
as well. Do you do what you can to pack
up and get in that car and leave, or do
you help others back up and board up their houses
and to protect what they've done?
Speaker 4 (40:03):
What's your first thought?
Speaker 1 (40:05):
Well, are we really talking about hurricanes or is this
an illustration for it?
Speaker 3 (40:08):
It's an illustration for both, because like, if you see
it coming, what do you do? Because you can if
if if people say, oh, I can see it coming,
I can see you know, Islam taking over New York
right now with the governor right yes, So if you
see it, what are you doing complaining? Are you on
Facebook dropping comments? Are you inciting people to riot? Are
(40:32):
you or are you doing something that?
Speaker 4 (40:36):
I mean?
Speaker 3 (40:36):
The Bible does call us to fight evil, to fight
against things that we don't see in this world.
Speaker 1 (40:45):
Define how you would fight evil?
Speaker 4 (40:47):
Biblicans praying share people hear that.
Speaker 1 (40:52):
I don't think that's what people hear when you say
fight evil. I know what you mean because I know you.
Speaker 4 (40:57):
Yeah, when you.
Speaker 1 (40:58):
Say the Bible calls us to fight evil, I don't
think people immediately go yeah, on your knees, baby with.
Speaker 4 (41:03):
Your Second Amendment. Grange, No, that's not I'm joking. I'm joking.
I'm joking.
Speaker 3 (41:07):
That's not what I mean at all. No, I definitely
mean that are you are you are you witnessing to
that person that you think that is on the opposite
side that you put out your American flag on the
fourth of July and they didn't. And you're like, well,
hang on, now we're back to our definitions of Christian nationalists. Well, like,
but are are you praying for them? Are you witnessing
(41:27):
to them by your life? Are you there when they're
in need? Are you there when they're hurting? Are you
are you kind when they're not? Are everything that the
Bible calls us to be and that we fight in
an unseen world that is not against flesh and blood,
that is against the rulers of the principalities of the air,
(41:52):
You know, that's what are you doing about?
Speaker 4 (41:54):
That? Is my question?
Speaker 3 (41:56):
If you see a hurricane coming, are you helping people
board up their home or you'd get just getting out? Yeah,
so it's kind of for me, it's kind of the
same question.
Speaker 1 (42:05):
Or are you you're staking your ground and boarding up
your house and going into your basement? Sure you know
the same thing.
Speaker 3 (42:12):
As the same Yeah, you're just you're you're escaping that
and you're the only one that's saved.
Speaker 4 (42:17):
Or are you helping others?
Speaker 1 (42:20):
And do you look at what we're showing this Islam thing.
We'll just stick with it. Do you look at them
as the enemy or that they are influenced by another enemy?
Speaker 4 (42:34):
Sure? Yeah, it's it's more of them influenced by that.
Speaker 1 (42:37):
Would you look at them as an opportunity, as someone
who's lost who could see the light?
Speaker 4 (42:43):
I would say, after thought and prayer, I would think that.
Speaker 3 (42:46):
I think immediately a lot of us and I'll I
say a lot of us, I mean me and then
anyone else who chooses to be honest about it is
they'll go. First thing you think is that that's my enemy,
but they're not your enemy.
Speaker 1 (42:59):
I am. I'm probably weird. That's maybe that's the best word.
I'm weird with this stuff, Like I Amber and I
will go to Arab restaurants where it says all eyes
is is God.
Speaker 4 (43:17):
I don't think that's weird.
Speaker 1 (43:18):
To be able to meet these people when I'm in
Arab countries. I also just have a love for the
Arab people. I've told you this before on text. I'm
a little biased because I have a little I have
a love for Latin culture and Arabic people for whatever reason.
Speaker 4 (43:36):
Well that's a calling you.
Speaker 1 (43:38):
But when I'm in an Arabic country, I feel, in
some ways, I feel alive in the faith. I feel
I feel closer to the Lord. I was telling mar
of this yesterday and he was like why, And I
didn't tell him why yet I'm kind of telling him now,
I guess. But when I hear a mosque what they
(43:59):
call the prayer, I just feel, I feel the Lord.
My prayers deepen, I get clarity, I get goosebumps on
my arms. It's like everything is now the spiritual battle
that already exists around us is is heightened, and I
(44:23):
feel the hypercolor in clarity around me. And I'm recognizing.
I recognize when I hear I called a prayer in
a mosque, I can a loud speaker. I recognize my need,
my proximity to evil, my proximity to the Prince of
(44:44):
the power of the air. Here Satan, who's the king
of the world. Right now, I feel my proximity to that,
therefore my closeness to the Lord. And I'll pray every time,
every time those called it like, for instance, I a
sleep one time and this was I think in Dubai
woke up, they would do the call to prayer about
(45:06):
four thirty in the morning, okay, And I just made
it a habit that every time it woke me up,
because you're sleeping with the windows open and stuff, and
it's just very loud. You can't avoid it. So I
would just make it, make it a thing when that
woke me up, which I looked at it as a
demonic voice, then I would start praying to the Lord.
Speaker 4 (45:25):
That's cool.
Speaker 1 (45:25):
And and I just feel I have I have a desire,
maybe a strange one, that my kids would feel that
kind of urgency and not be lulled to sleep, which
is much more of a demonic tactic on us, that
you could just be lulled to sleep by just nice
(45:48):
little suburban lives with no pressure. Just you want to
go to church, go if not, if you're not, if
you have a headache, don't go to church. You read
your Bible, but don't be a Bible thumper. You know. Oh,
it's more about loving people to the truth. And you know,
we're living a Christian nation that you just slow yourself
(46:08):
to sleep the demonic battle that's waging around you just
becomes less clear, a little blurry, and we don't Maybe
I should say me, I don't. I don't feel it.
I don't feel the battle. I don't feel the urgency.
And so when dearborn Michigan is freaking out on social
(46:30):
media because a mosque is now there, sure, I just
think what an opportunity for those people to witness, to
reach out, to have them over for dinner, a Muslim family,
and on top of all that, to feel the urgency
in the air around them.
Speaker 3 (46:49):
Well, I think that that's clarity of a lot of
what the Lord has shown you, you know. And I
think that the only way to explain that is it's
hard to understand what you haven't seen and to see
potential and see promise in something that others don't and
(47:10):
see despair and see trouble. They haven't gone through trouble,
and so when they see trouble, they have trouble. When
you've gone to the virtually at the end of the
earth in despair, and when you've gone to the end
of the earth, to the edge of death yourself you
(47:33):
feel inside, then everything looking back has so much clarity
it's like hindsight in twenty twenty. Well, I mean, you know,
you've gone all the way to the edge, and it's
easier for you to look. And the reason the Lord
has taken you there is to give you a little
(47:53):
glimpse of what he sees an eternity. He sees both directions,
all directions, not both, but in the past, in the future, up, down, left, right,
every direction there is, he knows, he knows, And we
only have one ford or two forward and backwards.
Speaker 4 (48:10):
We can look back at what we've done and what
he's carried us through, or we can look at forward
in the unknown, and that's all we have. Unless you've
been one that he's taken further than many many others.
And I believe that that's what he's done with you.
He's taken you through the worst of the worst to go.
(48:33):
And I was with you. See I told you I
never leave your forsake you.
Speaker 3 (48:36):
And when you thought it was the end, I was there,
And I was there back at the beginning too. So
when you look at things, you have a way different
perspective than a lot of people who what's cool is
that you can share with us what you see.
Speaker 4 (48:51):
Who sees and.
Speaker 3 (48:52):
Hears a mosque as a Christian in America who hears
a call to prayer from a mosque and goes, that's
opportunity only someone who's seen the promise.
Speaker 1 (49:05):
Yeah, I I don't want to be I don't want
to feel like I have some kind of high ground.
Speaker 3 (49:11):
And I think it would maybe feel that if you
said this, and I don't know why I just said that.
Speaker 1 (49:19):
Yeah, I I think losing river with Amber and I
we have both, We have said this many times. It
just it felt like the thing that the fat was trimmed,
you know, things that mattered, mattered, things that didn't all
of a sudden didn't, and there was less gray in between,
(49:42):
there was less gray area. And when the Lord took
hold of her heart with the Gospel and and just
a just a love, a love for his word, and
a joy, a joy in the in the presence of
Him and in fellowship with him, then that began to be
(50:05):
stronger than any other pleasure offered by this earth. And
so I don't Yeah, I don't want to encourage it's
some kind of radicalism of we should sell everything and
(50:26):
we should go live in a third world country. I
hope that that's not my argument.
Speaker 3 (50:31):
I didn't take that if and you can. And we
told you at the beginning of this is us having
a conversation. This is us having a conversation.
Speaker 1 (50:37):
Yeah, it really is. We've actually gone we should probably
do another one.
Speaker 4 (50:41):
How many times have you have you said? Yeah, but
the way you say that, it.
Speaker 3 (50:45):
Sounds like this, Okay, I'll take that, And I've said
that to you, and I don't think what Maybe what
I just shared was your reflection to me. It's what
I feel the Lord has given a revolution of to me.
Is that I know why you view some things the
(51:06):
way you do because I haven't. I haven't. I'll say
this one. You and I went to Israel. You know
what I never did. I never went to the Mount
of Olives. I can't tell you what it looks like
from the Mount of Bolives, but I know what it
looks like from your perspective.
Speaker 1 (51:23):
Now, why didn't you go?
Speaker 4 (51:27):
I don't think I realized that I was also working.
Speaker 3 (51:30):
We both were, but I was also working on some
things on the show on after midnight stuff we had
to do, and you guys would go early in the morning,
so I would either catch up or meet you guys,
and then we would meet at the wall or whatever,
you know, whatever the case was.
Speaker 4 (51:44):
Wherever we would we'd end up meeting later.
Speaker 3 (51:46):
And and and the times that you went, I just
never went. I should have. That's the only part like
I don't. I didn't want to swim in the dead sea.
I was good with that said even.
Speaker 4 (51:56):
Said that you go. Are you gonna look back and go? Man,
I wish i'd done that. Now, I'm good.
Speaker 3 (52:00):
I didn't need to get I do miss not going
to the Mount of Olives.
Speaker 4 (52:04):
I'm like, oh, I.
Speaker 3 (52:04):
Got I feel now I just got to go back
to go do that. But what I my point back
being again, you didn't introduce that that perspective to have
some kind of higher ground or some and and I
don't want to put something on you that you that
you that you feel that's a burden to you, how
about that, But what your perspective of just let's just
(52:27):
say of that gave it. I have a perspective of
now through you, and same with some of the other
stuff that you share. Just like this, I can see
that perspective now the way you explain it. And I
can see that when I if I hear a call
to prayer from a from a mosque. I'm not going
to think, oh my God, here comes the devil. I'm
gonna go man. I remember grange'er not talking about and
(52:49):
he talked about opportunity that will come to mind.
Speaker 1 (52:52):
Now I heard that in Michigan. They're they're actually playing that.
Now they're they're playing the loud speaker and listen. People
are going to find despair in that. And maybe you're
someone who's in Michigan who hears that, and here's this podcast.
Reposition your mind to be in line with the Word
of God. One reason I love Jerusalem and it's it's
not because of some eschatological you know, relevance of Israel
(53:18):
and God, and it's not that. It's just let's just
take that out of it. That's a different podcast at
a different time. What I love about Jerusalem is the
spiritual tension is so high. It's so concentrated because you
have these you know, like these ultra alter Orthodox people
(53:38):
walking around in their robes, and then you have these
these the Jews that are that are the the high
rabbis that you don't see like a high rabbi walking
around in America. And then you see the the the Arab,
the Muslim that is got Matt. You know his face
(54:01):
has been pressed to the mat because he's been praying,
and you just feel it in the air. And there's
you know, in the old city there I remember in
the in the Muslim quarter. The if you go deepen
up in that Muslim quarter, there's nothing but Muslims in there,
and it there is a sense that there is it
(54:26):
should be dangerous. In fact, there's the Jewish IDF soldiers
will guard it on either side with their guns and
they look at you. If I'm walking in, I'm a
white guy walking in. They look at me like you
sure you want to do that? You know where you're going,
You understand where you're going.
Speaker 4 (54:45):
Yes, I do.
Speaker 1 (54:47):
And there was a time when I was back there
one day, deep in the Muslim quarter and there was
a spice shop. There was a woman in there that
was pregnant. I don't know if this was on a
trip you're with me or not, but there was a woman.
She was pregnant and she was with her husband in
the spy shop. The husband owned it and they were
(55:09):
nervous about bringing a baby in, and we told him
a gospel. So then I went again in about eight
months six months after that, and I went to them,
I went looking for that man, and they stopped. The
IDF stopped me and said it might not be a
(55:30):
good time to go, And I said, I have to go.
I'm looking for I'm looking for a man. And I
went through there, and you could feel the tension ey
as you're looking at you could feel the IDF just
talked to me and I and I didn't feel I
didn't feel in danger, but it was culturally almost culturally inappropriate.
(55:58):
And so what I do, I'm literally praying with every
footstep on that old ancient cobblestone, every footstep is it
is that I'm taking refuge in him? Ye, Lord, it
did you. You're You're my strength. Lord, I'm looking for
a man. If he's here, Lord, you're taking me to him.
I trust you. I take my refuge in you. I
(56:20):
thirst for you like a dry and weary land where
there is no water. This is the kind of those
are the the intensity of prayers that you just don't
get into. At a flag football game with Lincoln in America,
and I went and I did a couple of zig zags,
and I could not and I could not find that
spy shop until all of a sudden it turned a
(56:42):
corner and there it was, and there he was, and
he remembered me right off. Oh wow, And he embraced
me and and I sat with him and talked and
he said, he said, I remember, I remember Jesus and
you told me and in the cross, and I had
new Arabic literature with me, and he saw it again
(57:05):
and and then this time he we exchanged WhatsApp numbers,
which occasionally we still talk, but then but it felt
worth it. He saw me and he loved me. I
was like a brother to him, and he knew I
was a Christian and probably most Christians probably hate him,
and he probably hates them. And he had a look
(57:26):
about him too, like an intense and intense you know.
Speaker 3 (57:30):
There's lots of intense looks on both like on everybody.
When you say there was the feeling, there's also the
outward expression of a lot of people there.
Speaker 1 (57:38):
Yeah, And these are the things I want. I want
Lincoln in Maverick, and I don't say it as much
for London, but I want them to see that. And
then I think, so it is it a horrible thing
that more and more cities are getting most right, you see,
this is a horrible I'm like, how is this bad?
(57:59):
I'm seeing these past going off on Instagram like Christians,
you know, wake up, get to the polls and vote,
you do what's happening in the wave of Islam's coming.
I'm like, I think back to the moment on the cobblestone,
and some things that get some things that get me
every time as I think, what if one day, Lord
in Heaven, a man walks up to me and says,
it was you, It was you, Yeah, that told me,
(58:23):
told me the truth, right, you know? And I think
I think that quite a bit. And what what a day?
If are we living for that day? Are we living
for the peace and prosperity of this day?
Speaker 4 (58:35):
Which?
Speaker 1 (58:36):
Which day are we living for? I think that the
answer to that would reveal the way we really think
about God.
Speaker 4 (58:42):
I think the answer that for most people too is well,
I say for most, I shouldn't say most. I think
I'll say for me. How about that? That's what I
can give an honest answer on us both it's both
is now and then something just nudges you and go.
Speaker 1 (58:59):
But what about let's sue this again? See another show
like this.
Speaker 4 (59:05):
Okay, I'm in.
Speaker 1 (59:07):
I think we still have a lot of ideas we
didn't even get to.
Speaker 4 (59:09):
And by the way, we do have. So this is
something new.
Speaker 3 (59:12):
We have a new episode that's going to be completely
different than this that is a video reaction podcast that
we'll be coming out on Wednesday.
Speaker 1 (59:22):
Is it about something like this?
Speaker 4 (59:23):
No?
Speaker 1 (59:23):
Okay?
Speaker 4 (59:24):
Good?
Speaker 3 (59:24):
And then we have on Friday Friday Q and A
okay that's coming up with this Friday. So I hope
you enjoyed it last week, hope you enjoyed it this week.
And yeah, I'll just see what God does with it.
Speaker 1 (59:35):
That's all we got. We'll see you next time. Thank
you so much for hanging out with me on this
episode of the Grangersmith podcast. I appreciate you being here.
If you're listening right now, go ahead and rate today's podcast.
It helps more folks find the show. And if you're
tuning in on the iHeartRadio app, you could actually set
this podcast as one of your presets, which is cool
that way. I'm just one tap away. If you're watching
(59:55):
on YouTube, don't forget to hit like and subscribe so
you don't miss any new episodes. And if you can,
I got a question you want answered right here on
the show. Just email me podcast at grangersmith dot com.
I'd love to hear from you. Thanks again for being here.
We'll see you next time.
Speaker 4 (01:00:08):
Ye y.
Okay, we're gonna go down a rabbit hole here. We're
gonna talk about a subject that no, lie, if I
say too much, could get me canceled. But I think
it's gonna be worth it. And yes, Islam has something
to do with this.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Welcome to the show.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
We have an interesting topic to run down today. You're
gonna get a glimpse into man and ize our text, messages, conversations.
Almost daily, we're walking through these type of topics, and
so it's interesting when we do a podcast like this,
people are really just kind of taking a peek into
things that we already unpack.
Speaker 3 (00:46):
And you get to see last week's like Wednesday episode
where we responded to videos. It kind of starts with
those and then moves into a conversation.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
Very much so we'll see that, we'll see a topic
or something come up, somebody's that says something, and then
you and I will talk and.
Speaker 4 (01:04):
And this time we hit record.
Speaker 1 (01:06):
And this time we actually hit record, although we have
talked for thirty or forty five minutes at maybe maybe
an hour before we've hit record. Today, but we're going
to bring people in on a topic that is I
believe highly controversial and and I have. I have thought
(01:26):
that there are certain aspects of this topic that if
I actually said in the public, I would get canceled,
not because not because it's dangerous to say what I'm saying,
but simply because it would be taken out of context.
Speaker 3 (01:43):
Yes, and that's happened to you before, happened a conversation
you know I had before we started on.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
You could say, you could say an entire thesis that
that's five to ten minutes long, and you could take
one line out of it and take it out of context.
It could be used as a weapon against me. But
not because once again, not because the person hearing it
would disagree if they actually knew the context, because it
(02:10):
was STRAWMND and taken taken out of context. So what
are we talking about here? And lead us into something here?
Speaker 4 (02:16):
Okay?
Speaker 3 (02:17):
So something that I personally have had an issue with
that I didn't talk a lot about. But then I started,
you know, when when Body passed away, I started listening
and watching some of his videos and he addressed this,
and I thought, oh, this is interesting.
Speaker 4 (02:38):
Here is a.
Speaker 3 (02:40):
Different race, black preacher and he is being asked if
he is a Christian nationalist. I've heard it used, and
more times than not, I've heard that phrase used in
a you don't want to be this?
Speaker 4 (02:58):
Or man, can you believe? Those? Was Christian nationalists?
Speaker 3 (03:01):
And I'm like, if I'm being honest, I'm not even
sure what you mean by that.
Speaker 1 (03:04):
Which the same thing. Vodie argues like, I have to
figure out what you mean by that question. Yeah, and
then Charlie kirk Thing has kind of elevated discussions.
Speaker 3 (03:13):
And that's and that really is like, oh, those who
agreed with with Charlie, those are Christian nationalists And it's
have you ever been called a name, like a derogatory name?
Speaker 4 (03:23):
You're like, am I supposed to be? Am I supposed
to be offended? I'm not sure.
Speaker 3 (03:27):
I'm not even sure what you mean, but like, am
I supposed to like no, no, no, that's not me?
Speaker 4 (03:31):
Or am I like?
Speaker 3 (03:32):
Well maybe I am? Or it's like did you just
insult me? I can't tell because you don't know. And
that's kind of how I felt about this. I'm like, well,
I love my country, I love my God more does
that make me one?
Speaker 4 (03:43):
I'm not sure?
Speaker 3 (03:44):
So you and I've had conversations about this, what it
means to be that and.
Speaker 1 (03:49):
It's also why we didn't title the podcast. That's because
it's you could widely misinterpret what we even mean.
Speaker 3 (03:56):
So we can look at the title and go, I'm
skipping that because that it's not what I am, or
I don't care about that. Well, the point of it was, well,
there's actually many different definitions, and you could be unknowingly
or you could be knowingly you don't know, or I
didn't at least, but I'll just speak from.
Speaker 1 (04:13):
My Yeah, So I'm sitting here. I typically have had
some lately, we've had some notes. You and I don't
have any notes today, just the Bible. You have some
things that you've looked up, So why don't we do
it this way? You define Christian nationalism.
Speaker 3 (04:28):
There's really three different definitions of what people mean by
that by that title.
Speaker 1 (04:33):
And what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna do the
best I can. I'm gonna listen to what you're saying
and then and think about think biblically about those definitions,
see where it lines up where it doesn't. And this
is one of these podcasts where I could, especially if
you're listening right now and you want to comment below,
do that because I'm gonna think as you're talking, I'm
(04:55):
gonna try to find some places in the Bible we
can align with. And then tomorrow might come and you know,
I might wake up tomorrow, gough. I missed something. I
didn't say something, which is the danger of not having
any notes. But let's run it this way.
Speaker 4 (05:10):
That is our conversation.
Speaker 1 (05:11):
This is just a conversation between you and I. Let's
do it, which is.
Speaker 3 (05:14):
Three, So we'll call them A, B, and C. A
would be your civic identity definition. I'll explain that here
in a minute. The second one, or B would be
faith based slash theological critique definition. And the third one
or C would be sociological or political power definition. Just
off those titles kind of gives you an area, an
(05:35):
idea of what direction these go in.
Speaker 1 (05:36):
Let's start with A, so before we get into that.
So what we're talking about here is we're trying to
see if where loving America begins to intersect with faith,
there you go and therefore becomes dangerous to your maturity
(05:57):
in Christ and possibly even tru mental to your faith
because because of what it could become an idol exactly.
Speaker 3 (06:05):
And I think that's what we'll get to is that
if you're if if your definition aligns with one that
has parody of the nation with that of Christ's kingdom,
You're going to be in a big issue.
Speaker 4 (06:20):
You're going to have a big issue.
Speaker 1 (06:21):
And the reason this is a sensitive topic for me
and you know, could get canceled then you know, that's
what we probably call this podcast is because I'm literally
the guy that sings the song America. You know, however
many years that was eleven years ago or whatever you.
Speaker 4 (06:38):
Did you did you sing that or did well?
Speaker 1 (06:40):
Zero dibbles, Jane Dibbles and so you know, ye nation.
It's kind of spawned out of this ultra ultra national
love for the red, white.
Speaker 4 (06:54):
And blue wrint.
Speaker 1 (06:56):
What do you got?
Speaker 3 (06:56):
I'll give you, uh, the first one, which is a definition,
a civic identity. Definition America is a Christian nation perspective,
that's something you've heard before.
Speaker 1 (07:08):
And that would that would not be an opinion. We
would just we would look at it as like Pakistan
is an Islamic nation, Israel is a Jewish nation. That's
what that means.
Speaker 3 (07:20):
The core idea of this is the belief that a
nation's identity or culture, cultural culture and laws should be
rooted in Christianity. Okay, so some key points here. Sees
Christianity as this as central to national identity and values.
Often promotes policies reflecting Biblical or Christian morals. Don't steal,
(07:43):
don't kill. Believes government should acknowledge or even endorse Christianity.
Speaker 4 (07:49):
Say that again. Believers believes government the government should acknowledge
or even endorse Christianity, which.
Speaker 1 (07:57):
We see, you know, God bless America.
Speaker 3 (08:00):
Views founding documents like the US Constitution as inspired by
Christian principles. Supporters may argue it perceives moral order and
national unity, and critics warn it can marginalize non Christians
and blur church state separation. That's the only kind of
key point that I would say, if I just had
(08:22):
to define myself, this is where I find myself. United
States Christian nation. Believe that, and for me, the nation
is second to the Kingdom of Christ. It is falling
in order under the headship of our Lord, and that
everything falls under that. I believe that that's what That's
(08:44):
the definition if I just said to someone was what
I would get out of it.
Speaker 4 (08:48):
Any thoughts on.
Speaker 1 (08:48):
Those, Yeah, I'm tracking. So let me start with this.
Do you believe that to be true, that we are
a Christian nation and our our our founding documents were
inspired by Christian ideals.
Speaker 3 (09:06):
You know, I'm not. I didn't study history like you
and I dead obvious in high school.
Speaker 4 (09:12):
But I didn't.
Speaker 3 (09:12):
I didn't do anything in college, and so you probably
know a little bit more about this and facts when
it comes to that. Everything that I have in the
limited research that I've done, I've always been led to believe, Yes,
our nation was it didn't want to be under the
thumb of religion, but it was under the freedom found
(09:36):
in Christ.
Speaker 4 (09:39):
That's what I got out of it.
Speaker 1 (09:40):
Okay, I yeah, I don't. I don't disagree that we
would call it, call us a Christian nation, and that
our documents, such as Declaration of Independence and that Constitution
would be inspired by Christian values. I don't say any
problem with saying that, because what we're not saying that
the founding fathers were all Christian.
Speaker 4 (10:00):
No, and I don't have to.
Speaker 1 (10:01):
Say that, Yeah, we don't have to say that for
that to be true.
Speaker 3 (10:04):
You see a lot of reflection though, and I've seen
examples of this, But I believe of judges in the Bible,
some of the reflections of that in our government today.
Examples I can't give you off hand, just in pasting
comments and other videos that I've seen, in conversations that
I've had, I've seen comparisons there that we get this
(10:26):
from this and and that's where I believe that it
was inspired by the Bible. The foundation of this country
was at least yeah, and I'm sure comments.
Speaker 1 (10:39):
Yeah, that's a rabbit hole. That's a rabbit hole. Lets
sidestep that because we don't just not necessary, I don't
think because we're going to try to watch our time here.
I'm trying to think if I should continue with this
or you go to the second one, and then.
Speaker 3 (10:58):
I think they're kind of yeah, and you can tie
some of it to character or find the parallels and
find the differences too. So b would be the faith
based slash theological critique definition, and this is a political
idolatry perspective, that being the core idea a warning that
Christian nationalism confuses faith in Christ with loyalty to a
(11:19):
country or political movement. Key points here defines it as
a distortion of the Gospel that elevates nationalism above Jesus
Kingdom or let's just say parody with Jesus Kingdom. You
know what is is is just as big as Jesus Kingdom,
as Jesus as Jesus Kingdom is our nation. It's right
(11:40):
up there, right right next to it, sitting side by side.
Speaker 1 (11:43):
And I don't think anyone actually admits that. I think
they live they live it, live it. No one says that.
Speaker 4 (11:49):
Their comments scream it.
Speaker 1 (11:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (11:52):
I think this is where it starts getting.
Speaker 1 (11:54):
No one says that. Everyone goes, you know, God first, God, God,
family country. You know, how is that the order?
Speaker 3 (12:01):
Yeah, and but you they do they say God, family country,
and instead what they do is they they're not doing
it from top to bottom.
Speaker 4 (12:11):
They're doing it from left to right.
Speaker 1 (12:12):
Oh yeah, that's a good way to look at.
Speaker 4 (12:14):
Yeah, it's just a left to right on that. Okay.
Another one often marked by exclusion, pride, or moral superiority
in the name of faith. Yeah, so think about that.
Speaker 3 (12:26):
Yep, theologically viewed as idolatry, putting country before God.
Speaker 1 (12:32):
Or like I said, always says that, But they live it.
Speaker 4 (12:35):
And that's it. Forget what I say, watch what I do.
Speaker 3 (12:38):
That's right, you know, that's where I think that that's
where you got to look at emphasizes that the Kingdom
of God transcends all earthly nations. Many pastors, theologians, and
believers warrant it harms that it harms the church's witness.
Speaker 4 (12:52):
I don't know on that part. I'd have to dig
into that a little bit.
Speaker 3 (12:54):
But the first half of that tied into a give
a me feelings on those.
Speaker 1 (13:01):
Yet.
Speaker 3 (13:01):
Okay, So see this one's sociological slash political power definition,
cultural framework, or ideology perspective. The core idea here is
a social ideology that merges national belonging with Christian, often white,
often conservative, cultural identity. Okay, okay, so some key points here.
(13:22):
It links being truly American with being Christian, often associated
with protecting perceived cultural dominance, so over other cultures values,
law and order, traditional gender roles, and patriotism as Christian virtues.
(13:43):
Uses religious language to justify political or cultural power viewed
by scholars as a threat to pluralism and democratic equality.
And then it can appear in both political movements and
social attitudes, not just churches. And the common question is
Christian nationalism about faith or about power and identity?
Speaker 1 (14:06):
Okay? So, so c encompasses a and B as well. Yeah,
you can't be C unless you're also A and B.
Speaker 3 (14:13):
Correct. It's you're combining everything. It's yeah, I think you're
right on that.
Speaker 1 (14:19):
And A is like the cleanest version of that, right.
Speaker 4 (14:21):
The cleanest, the most pure. It feels like of it being.
Speaker 1 (14:24):
Let's just saying, hey, we're a Christian nation, and when
we say that, we mean we were founded on Christian ideals.
The documents were inspired.
Speaker 4 (14:34):
Not that everybody is a Christian. Yeah, you have the
freedom of religion.
Speaker 1 (14:39):
At NASCAR events, they're gonna say Jesus.
Speaker 4 (14:42):
Yeah, they're going to say in Jesus name is Jesus.
Speaker 1 (14:44):
Name, and NASCAR race and have a prayer and they're
going to.
Speaker 4 (14:47):
Pray, and they're all gonna put their hand on their
heart for the national anthem.
Speaker 1 (14:51):
Yes, and that's something I would say that, that's something
would you would you agree? Can change? You can't change
the the inspiration of the founding documents or the way
the country.
Speaker 4 (15:02):
Started, but you can change what you do.
Speaker 1 (15:03):
But you could shoot that the whole nation could move
away from that.
Speaker 3 (15:08):
Yes, and I would say that we have, but we
have seen that and that could be a different pay.
Speaker 1 (15:13):
But we're still praying at NASCAR events gone, it's not
gone yet.
Speaker 4 (15:16):
But we're not praying at football games, and which.
Speaker 1 (15:19):
That's something that recently went away.
Speaker 3 (15:21):
Well, I mean I think probably, I think that went
away probably when we were in high school.
Speaker 4 (15:24):
Yeah, middle school. I remember that being an issue where
we did pray on one game and then next year.
Speaker 1 (15:29):
The president still says God bless America. Yes, right, yeah, yeah,
someday I would imagine someday soon that won't be said
taking off money maybe, yeah. And once again, we're not
we're not saying that the person in the office that
says that it needs to be a Christian. It's more
so a tradition that we do. It's same with the
(15:55):
NASCAR event. It doesn't mean most people at the NASCAR
race are Christian, right because the prayer said, it's just
more of a this is what we do.
Speaker 4 (16:03):
This is what we do. That's what we do. That's
a that's a yeah.
Speaker 3 (16:06):
So I think that you progressively in these three different versions,
you get more I think radicalized might be the wrong word,
but you get more radical about your opinion, if that
makes more sense. As the further you go along, It's like,
if you're not one of us, you can get out. Yeah,
you know, that's what it feels like and and listen
(16:27):
when you and that's that's been my my complaint about
the use of the phrase he or she is a
Christian nationalist. Look which one of those three are you
talking about, because they're drastically different from one from A
to C.
Speaker 4 (16:41):
Yeah, you know, you get progressively more intense.
Speaker 1 (16:45):
Yeah, So let's just talk about how we live these
things out because definitions don't matter, you know, as much.
Speaker 4 (16:52):
As the action.
Speaker 1 (16:53):
How we Yeah, what are our actions? We might say,
you know, God first and everything, but we might mean
God and my wife equally first, or God and my
kids equally first. That's the same kind of idolatry. Idolatry
for country, or idolatry for a Lamborghini, or idolatry for
a career or a dream or a kid is all idolatry.
(17:18):
It all puts something ahead of God.
Speaker 4 (17:21):
Yeah. Yeah, and it is evil, agreed.
Speaker 1 (17:26):
So let's let's kind of look through a biblical lens.
There are a lot of ways to do this. Let's
start with with thinking through something interesting. People would say,
we are blessed to live in America. Why would we
(17:51):
we should think about that? We should start there, because
it is a blessing to live in America. It is,
it is, But what do we mean by that? Because biblically,
when we look at the New Testament, after the incarnation
of the Messiah comes and becomes the fulfillment of Israel,
(18:16):
which we talked about a few podcasts ago, blessing is
no longer seen ever as material. In the New Testament,
no one says, I am blessed. The Lord has blessed me,
and you're talking about a good job, a good house,
a healthy, healthy family, a nothing material. Now in the
(18:39):
Old Testament it is, but that's a different that's a
that was leading, that was pointing to Christ. But once
the coming of Christ happens, blessing is seen differently. And so,
for instance, to receive material wealth of any kind is
now seen in the New test State as an opportunity
(19:01):
for stewardship, faithful stewardship. So you you would say, you're
you get a raise at work, it's not that. Well,
now I get more money in the bank. It's now
I have almost there's almost a burden of Now I
(19:22):
have a greater responsibility to steward this money well and faithfully,
and particularly for the vulnerable neighbors, loving your neighbor as yourself. WHOA,
that's that's a crazy thought. But I would challenge anyone
to look through, uh, look through these pages and find
(19:42):
any different. They are blessed in suffering. It's not the
only way that they're blessed in the New Testament, but
they rejoice and they count it as blessed to be
persecuted for the name of Christ.
Speaker 4 (19:57):
Yeah, I was, I was ringing that this morning when
Paul and Barnabas were.
Speaker 3 (20:05):
I forgot where they were, but they they they come
and they stone Paul. Yeah, and he gets back up.
They thought he was dead. He gets back up and
he goes back into town.
Speaker 1 (20:14):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (20:15):
And that he told He's like, hey, we should expect this,
We should expect for the sake of Christ to be
persecuted like this expected it's.
Speaker 1 (20:25):
Coming, And they counted it as a blessing.
Speaker 4 (20:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:27):
Joy So, So, which is just let's say, rather than
push past that request real quick.
Speaker 3 (20:37):
That is so contrary to two things your human nature.
Yeah yeah, the flesh in the American life. Yeah yeah,
the Americans and the American dream.
Speaker 4 (20:50):
It's the opposite.
Speaker 1 (20:51):
Yeah. So everything everything that we think in our flesh wants,
and what the American culture kind of propagates is this
idea that I need to make money so I could
retire and move to Florida and and live out my
days with my soulmate and the grandkids in my awesome condo,
(21:12):
just kind of reading books on the beach every day.
Where where? Where is that that? That's a that's foreign
to the Bible. Instead, we are we have a finite
amount of days left.
Speaker 4 (21:28):
We have.
Speaker 1 (21:28):
This life is a vapor we have. We only have,
We only have so much of an opportunity it being
called into the ministry that we're called into, and everybody
that's a Christian is in ministry. Yeah, that's that's kind
of a that's right that we need to say that.
But but there is we we should have a sense
(21:50):
of urgency that everything, everything given to us is from
the Lord and must be stewarded faithfully for the the
spread of the Gospel to all nations and the the
to be a good neighbor to anyone that we come
(22:12):
in contact with, and that would start in our house
and move out to our church and then move out
into our neighborhoods. And I'm not I'm not sitting here
talking about mission work here. That's that's a that's kind
of an overflow of of the church itself. But we
don't have that much longer me you, everyone that's listening.
(22:34):
And every day the Lord wakes us up again and
we open our eyes and we're his again. He's given
us and his sovereignty one more day, of course, and
and there's nothing more guaranteed. And so but we have
been taught by our culture to build portfolios and resumes
(22:54):
and four one k's and savings accounts and back up
savings accounts, and you know, and and you don't see that,
especially through as you read through the letters of the
New Testament, you read through the Book of Acts. In fact,
there is no there's no attachment to a country in
(23:17):
the New Testament. It doesn't mean they can't you can't
love and feel comfortable where you live, and that it
doesn't mean that you shouldn't feel like you could put
down roots and settle. But where you're settled, it's kind
of like the you know, the Lord has planted you
in a field, and we we tend to the field
(23:39):
where we're planted. And without the tending, that would be unfaithful.
So there's that that aspect of just the blessing itself
as we track. As we track, you mentioned Paul, I
think that's a good place to go. So let me
go to Acts here.
Speaker 4 (23:56):
And e Conium where they were. Yeah, because I just
opened it up and that's what YE was.
Speaker 1 (24:04):
So go let's go before Paul, we can go to
to Peter and John. I believe we're gonna go to
Acts four x one I Act four. Oh yeah, So
Peter and John, the they are, they're out there preaching
and they they heal a a beggar, a lame beggar.
(24:29):
This is this happens in chapter three of Acts. They
heal a lame beggar and it just causes all kinds
of stuff, Like people are just freaked out by this, right, yeah,
now this man and all of a sudden he's money. Yeah,
and they're they're they're not the guy. People are are like,
what this guy, these guys must be you know, like mystic,
you know, spiritist or something. This is wild. What kind
of magic could bring this guy back to life? We
(24:51):
see this a lot in the Book of Acts and
and so they're brought in. Peter and John are brought
in before the Council at the beginning of chapter four,
and the Sadducees. So as they were speaking to the
people in priest and the captain of the temple, and
the Sadducees came upon them. So the Sadducees and the
Pharisees were the ruling bodies, the ruling governance of the
(25:15):
Jewish people, whause we're in Jerusalem here as we're talking
about this story. I'm not in a verse yet, just
talking about the beginning of chapter four. So they arrest them.
They have the power to arrest. They are the ruling
governance here. They arrest Peter and John because they're out
(25:35):
there speaking, and verse three says, and they arrested them
and put them in custody until the next day, for
it was already evening. But many of those who had
heard the word believed, and the number of the men
came to about five thousand. The church is growing, and
it's growing by preaching. People are hearing and believing, right,
(25:57):
so they're proclaiming the Gospel. People hear it and they believe.
At this point, Peter and John don't have any other
interest in life than being faithful and this mission, this
ministry to tell people to be reconciled to God. God
is calling all people to be reconciled to Him. Turn
(26:18):
from yourself, turn from your idols, and turn from Him.
And then now on the next day, they're rulers and
elders and scribes gathered together in Jerusalem, and Annas the
high priest, and Caiaphist, and John and Alexander and all
who are there in the high priestly family. This is
the whole body, the whole ruling body gets together, and
(26:38):
they're really angry at this. They pulled Peter in. He's
filled with the Holy Spirit. He tells them what he's doing.
He tells them the gospel. He says, Jesus Christ, whom
you crucified, you know. He calls them out verse thirteen.
Now the people saw the boldness of Peter and John
and perceived that they were uneducated common men, that they
(27:00):
were astonished. They recognized they'd been with Jesus. So they
saw this boldness of this same Peter that denied Jesus
in the garden just virtual weeks before this, right, So
they warn them down, I'm just kind of skimming here.
Verse seventeen. They warn them, do not speak of this anymore.
Stop talking about this Jesus thing. Don't do it. You
(27:23):
know we're giving you a command from governing authorities. Don't
do this anymore. Charge them not to speak or teach
at all in the name of Jesus. That's verse eighteen
and verse nineteen. Peter and John answered them, whether it
is right on the side of God to listen to
you rather than to God, you must judge, for we
cannot but speak of what we have seen and heard.
(27:43):
They are astonished by this boldness. And then if we
go to chapter five, this story kind of continues because
now these guys have this reputation. And chapter five, verse eighteen,
they arrested the apostles and put them in public prison.
So now these guys are still out preaching. They have
now gone against what has been said. But notice when
(28:07):
these guys get arrested, they don't resist the arrest. That's
an interesting thing we should see. There's never a resisting
of arrest. We will see Paul later in a few
chapters get let down in a basket outside of the
window when they know that they might be coming for them.
But then later Paul submits to being arrested. So you
(28:30):
see that they are boldly proclaiming Christ against the ruling authorities,
saying that we can't, we can't but speak Christ. But
when they come to arrest them and beat them, they submit.
They don't fight, They don't resist this. They don't run,
(28:51):
they don't form a militia, they don't form an army.
They don't even flee. They just go take me. But
I'm just telling you, I'm I'm gonna keep speaking Christ. Right,
you're gonna take me. So in this instance, verse twenty
twenty eight, saying we strictly charged you not to preach
(29:11):
in the name. Yet you have, you have fuilled Jerusalem
with your teaching, and you intend to bring this man's
blood upon us. But Peter and the apostles answered, we
must obey God rather than men. Okay, So still they're
being bold in this way, but they don't resist the
governing authorities. This is so interesting, and it's so anti American.
(29:34):
Anti America says, we'll put man, I put my sword
in the sand. Come and take us. You know we
you know I've got my gun cocked ready to go.
You you come my property, I'm gonna blow your head.
You know this is the This is the mentality of
the American Christian essentially. So then if you look at
the end of Acts five, I promise I have a
(29:56):
point to this stuff. At the end of Acts five
they are in prison, and verse forty and when they
had called in the apostles, they beat them and charged
them not to speak in the name of Jesus, and
then they let them go Verse forty one. They left
(30:17):
the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were counted
worthy to suffer dishonor for the name verse forty two.
And every day in the temple and from house to
house they did not cease teaching and preaching that Christ
is Jesus. Fascinating stuff. We see this on and on
(30:41):
and on through the New Testament, especially as we can
kind of track this through the Book of Acts. They
are respectful to governing authorities, they submit to their leadership,
but they will not not preach. You know, a lot
(31:07):
of people listening to this podcast either own their own
business or they're thinking about getting into owning their own business,
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If you're trying to get a gift for someone that
(32:33):
you think has everything, how about a special video message
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(32:53):
Go to cameo dot com slash granger Smith and here's
a question. So this is the point I wanted to make.
Here's the question. These men were living in a persecuted
society beyond what we could possibly imagine. I mean, this
(33:14):
would be like Afghanistan level. Maybe maybe China, I can't.
I mean, but like I'm talking Afghanistan level. Like you
say that again, you're in prison. We're going to beat you.
That kind of thing that doesn't happen in very many
countries today.
Speaker 4 (33:29):
Yeah, definitely not here.
Speaker 1 (33:31):
Definitely not here or anywhere in Europe or you know,
or any any first world country. I wouldn't think so,
but the number was growing. People were hearing it and
believing it said five thousand, and then more thousands were
(33:51):
added to the number. The church is growing and they're
seeing this boldness. And this is all happening in a
context of heavy per secution. And so the Lord works
in all of these situations. So my question to you,
and I would have to ask myself, is do I
(34:13):
do I want to this is? This is complicated. What
I want to risk? What we'll call it islam America
transitioning into an Islamic country? Would I want to resist
that and fight that for the sake of my children
(34:37):
so that my children don't grow up going to the
square in Georgetown and hearing the mosque five times a
day calling to prayer and having even even worse, let's
go even further. No, it would be dangerous to carry
a Bible. You don't want to be caught praying because
(34:59):
you're and it's somebody from a governing authority is going
to talk to you. What I when I fight that,
or what I want to propagate Where we are today
in a country where Christianity is so nominal and you
can carry your Bible but it doesn't really matter. And
(35:21):
you could pray because everybody they pray it a NASCAR events.
It doesn't mean anything. You could say. You could say God.
The President says that this is like, this is very complicated, right,
I don't I'm gonna I want to hear your answer
to this. But but what we what we see is
(35:43):
God uses these and we should probably do another podcast
to continue this idea, especially if people want further me
to explain further. But as in history, as things get
easier to worship Christ and you have more freedom to
do it, nominalism grows wild. But as it's squeezed by
(36:08):
and oppressed by a evil power, Christianity strengthens and spreads
and grows. Like we're seeing an Iran right now, We're
seeing in China right now, and what's coming this way darkness,
you know. So that's my question to you and question
anyone else that wants to comment. So your question to me,
(36:30):
my question would be resists with force politically publicly, even
with your even with your first your second amendment, right,
would you resist an onsought of any kind of oppressive ideology,
namely Islam? Yeah, because that's what I'm seeing right now
(36:54):
a lot on social media's pastures speaking out against the
rise of Islam and Muslims in America. Or should we
be so blessed to be persecuted for the name, because
it is not a blessing to live in abundance without hindrance.
(37:17):
Because God has blessed me with a beach house in
Florida and a big bank account so that I could
take vacations and retire, and they'll put a nice Bible
verse on my tombstone.
Speaker 3 (37:35):
Right the second Amendment part would be the part what
I would resist, you know, saying that I would take
up arms for I think that's really where we get
into dangerous comments and where I say in comments are
(37:56):
just comments until comments become actions. And I think there's
we were I think in that aspect, it's jumping from
A to Z. Yeah, there is, And there's conversations, there's voting, there's.
Speaker 1 (38:12):
Trying to get an answer from you. I'm more so
just as I'm cultivating. I'm cultivating for a harvest.
Speaker 3 (38:19):
Yeah, I think that, and also just just for thought.
I mean, think about it. See, I think that what
we do, we do this a lot we do a
to Z A lot, Yeah, a lot, that's and we
do we go.
Speaker 4 (38:32):
You know, by God, that ain't happening here. You know
I got I got enough am to take all care
of it all one. You don't. Have you ever seen
a tank like?
Speaker 3 (38:43):
No, you probably won't even get loaded by the time
that that that thing takes off. But the point is, like,
have you stopped responding emotionally and started thinking, Lord, I'm
gonna stop for a second and listen. What do you
have for me? What do you want for me?
Speaker 4 (38:59):
Is it persecure? Right now?
Speaker 1 (39:01):
Let's go time out and I'm not time out. Pause.
We're not saying to seek persecution. Yes, that would, that would.
That's a big difference here, and so yeah, please don't
hear me if anyone's listening seeking persecution.
Speaker 4 (39:18):
I didn't. I didn't take I didn't take that part
from you. But you know, I kind of.
Speaker 3 (39:25):
Maybe I could turn the question back around and go
because we're seeing this right now, there's a hurricane developing,
it's heading towards you. You have time to do something
about your house, and you have something to time to
do about your family and to preserve what God has
blessed you with. Yes, material things, but then other things
(39:48):
as well. Do you do what you can to pack
up and get in that car and leave, or do
you help others back up and board up their houses
and to protect what they've done?
Speaker 4 (40:03):
What's your first thought?
Speaker 1 (40:05):
Well, are we really talking about hurricanes or is this
an illustration for it?
Speaker 3 (40:08):
It's an illustration for both, because like, if you see
it coming, what do you do? Because you can if
if if people say, oh, I can see it coming,
I can see you know, Islam taking over New York
right now with the governor right yes, So if you
see it, what are you doing complaining? Are you on
Facebook dropping comments? Are you inciting people to riot? Are
(40:32):
you or are you doing something that?
Speaker 4 (40:36):
I mean?
Speaker 3 (40:36):
The Bible does call us to fight evil, to fight
against things that we don't see in this world.
Speaker 1 (40:45):
Define how you would fight evil?
Speaker 4 (40:47):
Biblicans praying share people hear that.
Speaker 1 (40:52):
I don't think that's what people hear when you say
fight evil. I know what you mean because I know you.
Speaker 4 (40:57):
Yeah, when you.
Speaker 1 (40:58):
Say the Bible calls us to fight evil, I don't
think people immediately go yeah, on your knees, baby with.
Speaker 4 (41:03):
Your Second Amendment. Grange, No, that's not I'm joking. I'm joking.
I'm joking.
Speaker 3 (41:07):
That's not what I mean at all. No, I definitely
mean that are you are you are you witnessing to
that person that you think that is on the opposite
side that you put out your American flag on the
fourth of July and they didn't. And you're like, well,
hang on, now we're back to our definitions of Christian nationalists. Well, like,
but are are you praying for them? Are you witnessing
(41:27):
to them by your life? Are you there when they're
in need? Are you there when they're hurting? Are you
are you kind when they're not? Are everything that the
Bible calls us to be and that we fight in
an unseen world that is not against flesh and blood,
that is against the rulers of the principalities of the air,
(41:52):
You know, that's what are you doing about?
Speaker 4 (41:54):
That? Is my question?
Speaker 3 (41:56):
If you see a hurricane coming, are you helping people
board up their home or you'd get just getting out? Yeah,
so it's kind of for me, it's kind of the
same question.
Speaker 1 (42:05):
Or are you you're staking your ground and boarding up
your house and going into your basement? Sure you know
the same thing.
Speaker 3 (42:12):
As the same Yeah, you're just you're you're escaping that
and you're the only one that's saved.
Speaker 4 (42:17):
Or are you helping others?
Speaker 1 (42:20):
And do you look at what we're showing this Islam thing.
We'll just stick with it. Do you look at them
as the enemy or that they are influenced by another enemy?
Speaker 4 (42:34):
Sure? Yeah, it's it's more of them influenced by that.
Speaker 1 (42:37):
Would you look at them as an opportunity, as someone
who's lost who could see the light?
Speaker 4 (42:43):
I would say, after thought and prayer, I would think that.
Speaker 3 (42:46):
I think immediately a lot of us and I'll I
say a lot of us, I mean me and then
anyone else who chooses to be honest about it is
they'll go. First thing you think is that that's my enemy,
but they're not your enemy.
Speaker 1 (42:59):
I am. I'm probably weird. That's maybe that's the best word.
I'm weird with this stuff, Like I Amber and I
will go to Arab restaurants where it says all eyes
is is God.
Speaker 4 (43:17):
I don't think that's weird.
Speaker 1 (43:18):
To be able to meet these people when I'm in
Arab countries. I also just have a love for the
Arab people. I've told you this before on text. I'm
a little biased because I have a little I have
a love for Latin culture and Arabic people for whatever reason.
Speaker 4 (43:36):
Well that's a calling you.
Speaker 1 (43:38):
But when I'm in an Arabic country, I feel, in
some ways, I feel alive in the faith. I feel
I feel closer to the Lord. I was telling mar
of this yesterday and he was like why, And I
didn't tell him why yet I'm kind of telling him now,
I guess. But when I hear a mosque what they
(43:59):
call the prayer, I just feel, I feel the Lord.
My prayers deepen, I get clarity, I get goosebumps on
my arms. It's like everything is now the spiritual battle
that already exists around us is is heightened, and I
(44:23):
feel the hypercolor in clarity around me. And I'm recognizing.
I recognize when I hear I called a prayer in
a mosque, I can a loud speaker. I recognize my need,
my proximity to evil, my proximity to the Prince of
(44:44):
the power of the air. Here Satan, who's the king
of the world. Right now, I feel my proximity to that,
therefore my closeness to the Lord. And I'll pray every time,
every time those called it like, for instance, I a
sleep one time and this was I think in Dubai
woke up, they would do the call to prayer about
(45:06):
four thirty in the morning, okay, And I just made
it a habit that every time it woke me up,
because you're sleeping with the windows open and stuff, and
it's just very loud. You can't avoid it. So I
would just make it, make it a thing when that
woke me up, which I looked at it as a
demonic voice, then I would start praying to the Lord.
Speaker 4 (45:25):
That's cool.
Speaker 1 (45:25):
And and I just feel I have I have a desire,
maybe a strange one, that my kids would feel that
kind of urgency and not be lulled to sleep, which
is much more of a demonic tactic on us, that
you could just be lulled to sleep by just nice
(45:48):
little suburban lives with no pressure. Just you want to
go to church, go if not, if you're not, if
you have a headache, don't go to church. You read
your Bible, but don't be a Bible thumper. You know. Oh,
it's more about loving people to the truth. And you know,
we're living a Christian nation that you just slow yourself
(46:08):
to sleep the demonic battle that's waging around you just
becomes less clear, a little blurry, and we don't Maybe
I should say me, I don't. I don't feel it.
I don't feel the battle. I don't feel the urgency.
And so when dearborn Michigan is freaking out on social
(46:30):
media because a mosque is now there, sure, I just
think what an opportunity for those people to witness, to
reach out, to have them over for dinner, a Muslim family,
and on top of all that, to feel the urgency
in the air around them.
Speaker 3 (46:49):
Well, I think that that's clarity of a lot of
what the Lord has shown you, you know. And I
think that the only way to explain that is it's
hard to understand what you haven't seen and to see
potential and see promise in something that others don't and
(47:10):
see despair and see trouble. They haven't gone through trouble,
and so when they see trouble, they have trouble. When
you've gone to the virtually at the end of the
earth in despair, and when you've gone to the end
of the earth, to the edge of death yourself you
(47:33):
feel inside, then everything looking back has so much clarity
it's like hindsight in twenty twenty. Well, I mean, you know,
you've gone all the way to the edge, and it's
easier for you to look. And the reason the Lord
has taken you there is to give you a little
(47:53):
glimpse of what he sees an eternity. He sees both directions,
all directions, not both, but in the past, in the future, up, down, left, right,
every direction there is, he knows, he knows, And we
only have one ford or two forward and backwards.
Speaker 4 (48:10):
We can look back at what we've done and what
he's carried us through, or we can look at forward
in the unknown, and that's all we have. Unless you've
been one that he's taken further than many many others.
And I believe that that's what he's done with you.
He's taken you through the worst of the worst to go.
(48:33):
And I was with you. See I told you I
never leave your forsake you.
Speaker 3 (48:36):
And when you thought it was the end, I was there,
And I was there back at the beginning too. So
when you look at things, you have a way different
perspective than a lot of people who what's cool is
that you can share with us what you see.
Speaker 4 (48:51):
Who sees and.
Speaker 3 (48:52):
Hears a mosque as a Christian in America who hears
a call to prayer from a mosque and goes, that's
opportunity only someone who's seen the promise.
Speaker 1 (49:05):
Yeah, I I don't want to be I don't want
to feel like I have some kind of high ground.
Speaker 3 (49:11):
And I think it would maybe feel that if you
said this, and I don't know why I just said that.
Speaker 1 (49:19):
Yeah, I I think losing river with Amber and I
we have both, We have said this many times. It
just it felt like the thing that the fat was trimmed,
you know, things that mattered, mattered, things that didn't all
of a sudden didn't, and there was less gray in between,
(49:42):
there was less gray area. And when the Lord took
hold of her heart with the Gospel and and just
a just a love, a love for his word, and
a joy, a joy in the in the presence of
Him and in fellowship with him, then that began to be
(50:05):
stronger than any other pleasure offered by this earth. And
so I don't Yeah, I don't want to encourage it's
some kind of radicalism of we should sell everything and
(50:26):
we should go live in a third world country. I
hope that that's not my argument.
Speaker 3 (50:31):
I didn't take that if and you can. And we
told you at the beginning of this is us having
a conversation. This is us having a conversation.
Speaker 1 (50:37):
Yeah, it really is. We've actually gone we should probably
do another one.
Speaker 4 (50:41):
How many times have you have you said? Yeah, but
the way you say that, it.
Speaker 3 (50:45):
Sounds like this, Okay, I'll take that, And I've said
that to you, and I don't think what Maybe what
I just shared was your reflection to me. It's what
I feel the Lord has given a revolution of to me.
Is that I know why you view some things the
(51:06):
way you do because I haven't. I haven't. I'll say
this one. You and I went to Israel. You know
what I never did. I never went to the Mount
of Olives. I can't tell you what it looks like
from the Mount of Bolives, but I know what it
looks like from your perspective.
Speaker 1 (51:23):
Now, why didn't you go?
Speaker 4 (51:27):
I don't think I realized that I was also working.
Speaker 3 (51:30):
We both were, but I was also working on some
things on the show on after midnight stuff we had
to do, and you guys would go early in the morning,
so I would either catch up or meet you guys,
and then we would meet at the wall or whatever,
you know, whatever the case was.
Speaker 4 (51:44):
Wherever we would we'd end up meeting later.
Speaker 3 (51:46):
And and and the times that you went, I just
never went. I should have. That's the only part like
I don't. I didn't want to swim in the dead sea.
I was good with that said even.
Speaker 4 (51:56):
Said that you go. Are you gonna look back and go? Man,
I wish i'd done that. Now, I'm good.
Speaker 3 (52:00):
I didn't need to get I do miss not going
to the Mount of Olives.
Speaker 4 (52:04):
I'm like, oh, I.
Speaker 3 (52:04):
Got I feel now I just got to go back
to go do that. But what I my point back
being again, you didn't introduce that that perspective to have
some kind of higher ground or some and and I
don't want to put something on you that you that
you that you feel that's a burden to you, how
about that, But what your perspective of just let's just
(52:27):
say of that gave it. I have a perspective of
now through you, and same with some of the other
stuff that you share. Just like this, I can see
that perspective now the way you explain it. And I
can see that when I if I hear a call
to prayer from a from a mosque. I'm not going
to think, oh my God, here comes the devil. I'm
gonna go man. I remember grange'er not talking about and
(52:49):
he talked about opportunity that will come to mind.
Speaker 1 (52:52):
Now I heard that in Michigan. They're they're actually playing that.
Now they're they're playing the loud speaker and listen. People
are going to find despair in that. And maybe you're
someone who's in Michigan who hears that, and here's this podcast.
Reposition your mind to be in line with the Word
of God. One reason I love Jerusalem and it's it's
not because of some eschatological you know, relevance of Israel
(53:18):
and God, and it's not that. It's just let's just
take that out of it. That's a different podcast at
a different time. What I love about Jerusalem is the
spiritual tension is so high. It's so concentrated because you
have these you know, like these ultra alter Orthodox people
(53:38):
walking around in their robes, and then you have these
these the Jews that are that are the the high
rabbis that you don't see like a high rabbi walking
around in America. And then you see the the the Arab,
the Muslim that is got Matt. You know his face
(54:01):
has been pressed to the mat because he's been praying,
and you just feel it in the air. And there's
you know, in the old city there I remember in
the in the Muslim quarter. The if you go deepen
up in that Muslim quarter, there's nothing but Muslims in there,
and it there is a sense that there is it
(54:26):
should be dangerous. In fact, there's the Jewish IDF soldiers
will guard it on either side with their guns and
they look at you. If I'm walking in, I'm a
white guy walking in. They look at me like you
sure you want to do that? You know where you're going,
You understand where you're going.
Speaker 4 (54:45):
Yes, I do.
Speaker 1 (54:47):
And there was a time when I was back there
one day, deep in the Muslim quarter and there was
a spice shop. There was a woman in there that
was pregnant. I don't know if this was on a
trip you're with me or not, but there was a woman.
She was pregnant and she was with her husband in
the spy shop. The husband owned it and they were
(55:09):
nervous about bringing a baby in, and we told him
a gospel. So then I went again in about eight
months six months after that, and I went to them,
I went looking for that man, and they stopped. The
IDF stopped me and said it might not be a
(55:30):
good time to go, And I said, I have to go.
I'm looking for I'm looking for a man. And I
went through there, and you could feel the tension ey
as you're looking at you could feel the IDF just
talked to me and I and I didn't feel I
didn't feel in danger, but it was culturally almost culturally inappropriate.
(55:58):
And so what I do, I'm literally praying with every
footstep on that old ancient cobblestone, every footstep is it
is that I'm taking refuge in him? Ye, Lord, it
did you. You're You're my strength. Lord, I'm looking for
a man. If he's here, Lord, you're taking me to him.
I trust you. I take my refuge in you. I
(56:20):
thirst for you like a dry and weary land where
there is no water. This is the kind of those
are the the intensity of prayers that you just don't
get into. At a flag football game with Lincoln in America,
and I went and I did a couple of zig zags,
and I could not and I could not find that
spy shop until all of a sudden it turned a
(56:42):
corner and there it was, and there he was, and
he remembered me right off. Oh wow, And he embraced
me and and I sat with him and talked and
he said, he said, I remember, I remember Jesus and
you told me and in the cross, and I had
new Arabic literature with me, and he saw it again
(57:05):
and and then this time he we exchanged WhatsApp numbers,
which occasionally we still talk, but then but it felt
worth it. He saw me and he loved me. I
was like a brother to him, and he knew I
was a Christian and probably most Christians probably hate him,
and he probably hates them. And he had a look
(57:26):
about him too, like an intense and intense you know.
Speaker 3 (57:30):
There's lots of intense looks on both like on everybody.
When you say there was the feeling, there's also the
outward expression of a lot of people there.
Speaker 1 (57:38):
Yeah, And these are the things I want. I want
Lincoln in Maverick, and I don't say it as much
for London, but I want them to see that. And
then I think, so it is it a horrible thing
that more and more cities are getting most right, you see,
this is a horrible I'm like, how is this bad?
(57:59):
I'm seeing these past going off on Instagram like Christians,
you know, wake up, get to the polls and vote,
you do what's happening in the wave of Islam's coming.
I'm like, I think back to the moment on the cobblestone,
and some things that get some things that get me
every time as I think, what if one day, Lord
in Heaven, a man walks up to me and says,
it was you, It was you, Yeah, that told me,
(58:23):
told me the truth, right, you know? And I think
I think that quite a bit. And what what a day?
If are we living for that day? Are we living
for the peace and prosperity of this day?
Speaker 4 (58:35):
Which?
Speaker 1 (58:36):
Which day are we living for? I think that the
answer to that would reveal the way we really think
about God.
Speaker 4 (58:42):
I think the answer that for most people too is well,
I say for most, I shouldn't say most. I think
I'll say for me. How about that? That's what I
can give an honest answer on us both it's both
is now and then something just nudges you and go.
Speaker 1 (58:59):
But what about let's sue this again? See another show
like this.
Speaker 4 (59:05):
Okay, I'm in.
Speaker 1 (59:07):
I think we still have a lot of ideas we
didn't even get to.
Speaker 4 (59:09):
And by the way, we do have. So this is
something new.
Speaker 3 (59:12):
We have a new episode that's going to be completely
different than this that is a video reaction podcast that
we'll be coming out on Wednesday.
Speaker 1 (59:22):
Is it about something like this?
Speaker 4 (59:23):
No?
Speaker 1 (59:23):
Okay?
Speaker 4 (59:24):
Good?
Speaker 3 (59:24):
And then we have on Friday Friday Q and A
okay that's coming up with this Friday. So I hope
you enjoyed it last week, hope you enjoyed it this week.
And yeah, I'll just see what God does with it.
Speaker 1 (59:35):
That's all we got. We'll see you next time. Thank
you so much for hanging out with me on this
episode of the Grangersmith podcast. I appreciate you being here.
If you're listening right now, go ahead and rate today's podcast.
It helps more folks find the show. And if you're
tuning in on the iHeartRadio app, you could actually set
this podcast as one of your presets, which is cool
that way. I'm just one tap away. If you're watching
(59:55):
on YouTube, don't forget to hit like and subscribe so
you don't miss any new episodes. And if you can,
I got a question you want answered right here on
the show. Just email me podcast at grangersmith dot com.
I'd love to hear from you. Thanks again for being here.
We'll see you next time.
Speaker 4 (01:00:08):
Ye y.
Host
Granger Smith
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