The Hardest Question Christians Face | Greg Koukle

In this compelling episode, Granger Smith sits down with apologist and author Greg Koukl (Tactics, Street Smarts) for an in-depth conversation about faith, fame, and how asking the right questions can open hearts and minds to truth. Greg shares his journey from cultural rebellion in the 1960s to a conviction of Christ’s truth in 1973—not through arguments, but through persistent love. The two discuss how to navigate hard questions like “Are you saying I’m going to hell?” with clarity and grace, and why the resurrection of Jesus isn’t just belief—it’s history. This episode is packed with wisdom on how to speak truth without religious jargon, how to live humbly in the spotlight, and how to engage skeptics by simply asking, “What do you mean by that?”

Whether you’re a believer seeking confidence in conversations, or a skeptic exploring deeper questions, this episode offers clarity, authenticity, and a path forward.

Support Greg’s ministry by visiting https://www.str.org

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
So you were just a single solo guy. As a
solo guy, yeah, okay, how long are you in the
industry performing and recording?

Speaker 2 (00:07):
My first album was nineteen ninety nine, so.

Speaker 1 (00:09):
Oh my goodness, that's kind of a lot. And you
left what year?

Speaker 3 (00:13):
My final tour was twenty twenty three. August of twenty
twenty three.

Speaker 1 (00:18):
Okay, see, I like five years on the road and recording.
And did you become a Christian after that? I mean,
I mean, well, in the midst of all that you
want a Christian when you started touring.

Speaker 3 (00:29):
I thought I was. I was a cultural Christian. I
always thought, you know, grew up in a Christian home.
I'm from the Bible Belt, so always could have articulated
the Gospel and told you that I was a believer.
But it wasn't until later in my life when the
Lord radically converted me through tragedy, which which does happen
quite a bit. Tragedy and suffering will test of faith

(00:50):
and you can see the genuineness of that faith through
that suffering, and I didn't have any That's what I discovered.
And so when I became a Christian and then and
really started reading the Bible for the first time, and
not just as a devotional or as like an instruction
manual for my life, but actually unfolding the narrative of

(01:10):
God's people and what he has done, and who he
is and who we are in relation to who he is.
I started seeing some inconsistencies in my life, and part
of that was I'm a singer exalting myself every day,
and I don't know how that's reconciling with taking up
my cross.

Speaker 1 (01:26):
Yeah yeah, well I think it. You can be a
performer and do a good job, but the mentality and
attitude is really hard to manage, you know. I mean,
this is something that people in my business have to
deal with. So trying to get better known and people
come up to you, and they even even Amy yesterday,

(01:47):
Amy Hall. So you know who Amy Hall is.

Speaker 2 (01:50):
I don't think so.

Speaker 1 (01:52):
Oh okay, So I'm not sure how fully you are
with Standard Reason. But we have two podcasts. We have
two hours a week to hours a week where I
do the podcast and we have two other separate twenty
five minute segments where Amy Hall on our team takes
questions that gets sent in and she asked me the questions,
I respond and then she adds brilliance to it. So

(02:16):
that's Amy. So Amy's got a cult following too, as
it turns out, of big fans that she's not even
aware of because she doesn't get out much. It's just
she does the radio stuff. But when she does show
up at events, people flock to her. Oh Amy kind
of thing. But anyway, Amy said, and our star Greg
cochol I said, Amy, don't even talk like that. I

(02:36):
said that out of the air because I don't want
people to I don't want to think of my stuff
like that. I don't want people to think of myself.
I'm just hey, I'm here as a brother in the Lord.
I'm offering something that may be useful, and you should
be doing the same kind of thing with other people
in your life. Okay, this is just what I do.
So we have to. I think all of us have
to be vigilant. So I think it's possible to be

(02:58):
really effective in the say, in the music business, but
it is very hard because so many people are genuflecting
to you, bowing down to you, saying all of these
wonderful things that may be true about your craft, but
people take them way too seriously. So I just saw

(03:19):
just a couple of days ago. Actually, on the way back.
I don't know how much time you have here, so
I want to be sensitive to that.

Speaker 2 (03:24):
But go ahead, and I'm here to here. I'm here
to listen to you.

Speaker 1 (03:29):
We're just kind of getting warmed up a little bit.
I don't even know what we're going to talk about today.
I'll follow you wherever you want to go. It's all right,
it's your show. And I've heard here to help that out.
But but I watched a Complete Unknown on the flight
back from Dallas from uh from Nashville on Sunday night,
and that's about a Bob Dylan.

Speaker 2 (03:50):
Right.

Speaker 1 (03:51):
Have you seen this?

Speaker 2 (03:52):
I have not seen it. I've heard about Okay, I.

Speaker 1 (03:55):
Really enjoyed it. But I experienced this film on a
number of levels. Now, I was born in nineteen fifty
and so this is sixty to sixty five of Bob Dylan.
I'm very familiar with that time. That's when they had
the Cuban missile crisis in sixty two, that's when John
Kennedy was assassinated in sixty three, and they're showing this
new stuff in the background with Walter Cronkite Man. I

(04:15):
have a vivid memory of all of that stuff. And
I also have a memory of the burgeoning countercultural movement
that Bob Dylan was a significant part of. And so
it's very interesting to see. I don't know if you
follow his career at all, but it's really an amazing career.
And it may be that he's a Christian testimony now,
but he sure wasn't then he was a nobody. They

(04:35):
followed from when he's a nobody to when he's Probably
the argue with sixty five. Now this says the Beatles
had just just kind of began to penetrate a little
bit in sixty, say, sixty three and sixty four the
American population, and so they were big. But the It's
one didn't deal with any of that stuff. It dealt

(04:57):
with this burgeoning folk music kind of thing that he
was a part of, and he was like an unbelievable
superstar by sixty five starts at sixty sixty. But you
could see the corruption. Well, I want to be careful
wh I say this. There was it certainly had a
corruptic influence on his life, but he was already corrupted.

(05:18):
He was not a virtuous man. He was utterly selfish,
and self centered and self consumed. He did not care
about anyone's feelings about anything. All he cared about was himself.
So I don't know if that's actually accurate characterization, but
this is a biopic that's done about the guy who's

(05:39):
still alive.

Speaker 2 (05:42):
Yeah, I should say something about that.

Speaker 1 (05:44):
Yeah, it seems too he's in a place to say
that's not true about me or whatever, that didn't happen
that way or whatever. But anyway, those.

Speaker 3 (05:54):
Are good characteristics to be a good popular singer. To
care only about yourself because you are the product.

Speaker 1 (06:01):
See I wonder though if that's necessary. You know, it's
it's one thing too. I understand that you are the product, okay,
but how you how you characterize yourself as the product?
You can look at the proverb says, let another praise

(06:23):
you and not your own self. Okay, so don't praise yourself,
but let other people pray. Use as appropriate. But that
doesn't mean you let it go to your head. And
now I'm not going to talk to people who are
beneath me. I'm gonna babb a boh this. Then there
are people in the business. I don't know about your business,
But who is the guy here, I'm trying to download names.

Speaker 2 (06:45):
That's okay.

Speaker 1 (06:46):
Well, I know Kirk Camera for example. He just lives
down the road and we get together from now and
we've known each other a long time. Kirk is a
true blue, absolutely down to earth, totally humble guy. But
he's you know, he's got he's got a great CV
in terms of his contribution. Now, people haven't noticed him
much lately. He does faith films and stuff like that.

(07:09):
But then who's the other guy who is the great? Well,
I can say is like the kung fu guy with
the beard, and he had a TV show for a while.
He's very very accomplished martial arts guy. When martial arts
he made a movie with Bruce Lee and stuff like that.
I'm trying to think of his name. He's an older
guy now, Zackie. No, no, no, this is a white guy.

(07:34):
So if I said a debut, do it. But I
saw him in the airport once, okay, and I didn't
talk to him, but some kids came up to him.
They recognized it because he had a TV show and uh, oh, okay,
remember say but he is oh, he was great, you know,
no airs about him at all. He was just down

(07:54):
to earth kind of person. And so here's a guy
with a lot of fame, and yet he was a
very easygoing kind of person, very ordinary and very approachable.
There are people like that in the industry and they
don't let it go to their heads. So I think
it's possible to do that a certain field, certainly, but
it's hard.

Speaker 3 (08:12):
So Kirk Kirk and I have actually had this conversation,
this very conversation, and he has he'll readily admit that
it's dangerous for him.

Speaker 2 (08:23):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (08:24):
So, so we need to surround ourselves with people that
can buffer that protect us, give us some level of
protection by not just becoming yes men, uh, but but
men that are that could be around us and not
afraid to say I think you're wrong on that, buddy, Yeah.

Speaker 2 (08:41):
I don't think.

Speaker 3 (08:41):
I don't think you're you're you're good here and and
and so Kirk it has told me that over the
years he's he has struggled because when people do praise you,
it's it's a little.

Speaker 2 (08:50):
Bit of poison to you. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (08:51):
Yeah, you just got to be careful of it and mindful.

Speaker 2 (08:55):
Right.

Speaker 1 (08:55):
So, I mean, Jesus, Jesus, people praise Jesus a lot too.
At least for the first staff of his ministry, you know.
But you know it's it's just got built in liabilities
and we have to be careful of and frankly, from
what I understand about the CCM industry, you know, most
people have not fared well in the midst of that.

(09:15):
You know, that's right, do you know Alisa Childers? Yes, yeah, okay,
so I mean she says that is such a corrupt
industry on the Christian side, the CCM sign.

Speaker 3 (09:24):
I know, we had an artist, a famous artists here
just the other day. Yeah, it's hard. Yeah, And I
do say I usually need to add this to my
story that it wasn't only the me to feel the
need to back away from the industry because of some
kind of.

Speaker 2 (09:41):
Feeling of self exaltation. There was also, to.

Speaker 3 (09:47):
The Lord's credit, he was reducing a passion that I
had for it and raising it in other areas.

Speaker 1 (09:53):
Yeah that's great, that's really great. Well it made it easier, huh,
that's right. People have to make the hard choice. I
think Kirk might have an example. I mean, this guy
was at the was I mean, he's one of the
I don't know what they call him now, but like
he was one of those boy charmer types. You know,
he was on the face of the teen idol magazines

(10:13):
and whatever. But you know, I don't know they ever
lost his passion for what he was doing. But the
Lord got a wholettle bit of a good way. Is
his sister's still working a lot. You know, I don't
know how that's working out for her, but but the
I'm glad to hear that you have somebody like Kirk
because I'm sure sure you'd agree with me. He's a

(10:34):
true blue. This guy is just fabulous, you know he is.
He for like for many years. On my birthday, get
a note from him just saying, Hey, I'm just I'm
just a guy, you know down the street. You know,
I got some things I do and he appreciates that.
But it wasn't like I was, you know, he's kissing
up to me or anything. But he was just encouraging me.
So it was really sweet.

Speaker 2 (10:54):
That's wonderful.

Speaker 3 (10:55):
Well you're I'm not I'm not sure if it was
your secretary or who who we reached out to to
set this up.

Speaker 1 (11:02):
Darcy. Darcy, Yeah, we don't have secretary, okay. Colleagues and co.

Speaker 3 (11:06):
Workers, Colleagues and co workers, Darcy said respectfully. Darcy said,
may I ask why you would like to speak with
Greg in this podcast? And I think that was a
great question, and I think part of it, there's evidence
in what we've talked about so far that that was
a valid question.

Speaker 2 (11:25):
So maybe I should tell you how I know you? Okay, yeah,
I was.

Speaker 3 (11:31):
I was in a couple of years ago in a
seminary class and doctor Timothy Booker do you know you know,
I don't know him.

Speaker 2 (11:39):
It's southern. Oh yeah, in Louisville, Yes, in Louisville, Louisville,
and so mixed up.

Speaker 3 (11:47):
This was a personal evangelism class. We get assigned, you know,
the pile of books, as as every class assigns, and
then there's there was this one in that pile and
I started going through this and I just became so
fascinated by you in your ministry. And like I said,

(12:09):
this was a couple of years ago, so perhaps I'm
late on this interview. But as we started putting together
a list of who I would like to talk to,
I just thought if I could talk to Greg Cochle,
that would be fantastic. And I don't really care if
we release it or not. I would just like to
have a conversation.

Speaker 1 (12:27):
And I'm easy, you know, I'm not like it's just
schedule concerns, that's all. But I'm you know, I talked
to lots of folk. Actually, there's a gal all right
in Nashville. You might know her dad. Her name is
Ava Cook, I think Abra Cochrane, and her dad is
named dot Dan and he's a young guy. Yeah do

(12:48):
you know that name?

Speaker 2 (12:49):
Yeah? I do.

Speaker 1 (12:50):
Oh, okay, Well she's like, well when she interviewed me,
she was probably fourteen. She was fourteen years old. She's
got her own podcas us and everything. You know, she's
probably seventeen now. But my view was, all right, if
I can have an impact through her or even if
it's a small audience, I'm.

Speaker 2 (13:08):
Happy for that.

Speaker 1 (13:08):
Plus I wanted to I wanted to encourage her as
as a person who's doing something unique. And you know
how many fourteen year olds do that kind of thing.
There's a few, but not many, and so so that's
I mean, that's my general view is, like, like I said,
I'm not hard to get. I'm glad to be here
with you. And as long as the schedule stuff works

(13:30):
out for me, you know, and I can make a contribution,
be an encouragement to you. Look at the way I
look at it, Granger, If if we if we never
do the podcast after our conversation here, my trust is
that God is going to will have made a contribution
in your life that's that's useful and will be durable.
I mean, And that's what time I'll spend this for us.

(13:51):
If that's all we get out of.

Speaker 3 (13:52):
This, and then well, what really the way if you
could imagine there's a lot of country music people that
kind of have bled over into this and to this
program now, and so I find a unique opportunity now
to collect things like your book Tactics, to collect people
like Kirk Cameron and Ray Comfort and Frank Turk, and

(14:12):
collect these guys and put them on a on a
platform of people, perhaps even a younger generation that goes
I don't know Ray Comfort, I don't know Frank Turk
or Greg Cochele.

Speaker 2 (14:24):
Who are they?

Speaker 3 (14:25):
And so then I say, well, let me provide a
special window into something that I've loved for a long time,
and let me have some some discussions that that might
open up a door to someone else.

Speaker 2 (14:36):
As you said that the Lord could use.

Speaker 3 (14:39):
When did you first realize that you had a gifting
in apologetics?

Speaker 1 (14:45):
Do you want to start rolling and this will be
part of the interview or.

Speaker 2 (14:48):
Would you be would you be mad at me if
I told you we've been rolling since we.

Speaker 1 (14:51):
Started talk all, you can use whatever you want, so
and edit if you want. I mean, there's nothing I've
said that you know it's discreditable. Anyway, I was going
to ask you that the end, okay, when the warning
would have been good at the beginning, because sometimes I'm

(15:12):
a bit earthy, Let's put it that way. The way
the question was when did I when.

Speaker 3 (15:19):
Did you realize you had a gifting and apologetics in
Christian apologetics?

Speaker 1 (15:23):
Well, actually, I would not look at it that way. Wait, Grader,
I began developing an interest in it very early on.
And because now I'm almost fifty two years in christ
even though I became a Christian as a young adult
in nineteen seventy three, so it was twenty three years old,

(15:44):
I realized, well, first of all, I did not become
a Christian in this influence in the same way like
some of my colleagues. So you got a least trouble
for example, Well, apologetics were a huge factory and is
coming to Christ. You mentioned Frank. I think that might
have been the case with Frank Turick as well, and

(16:06):
a lot of people who do what I do. They
had apologetics as a launching pad for their own convictions
about Christ, and so it was natural for them to
keep going. That is not the case for me. All
I can say is the I mean, it's very unglamorous,
but I just came to a realization over time that

(16:27):
Christianity was true. So I guess, you know, this is
the Holy Spirit obviously has to work in everybody. But
this is just the way it happened. And my younger
brother Mark had been the one who is sharing Christ
more with me. I had run into a lot of
Christians prior to that time. You know, I went to
Michigan State University for a few years seventy to seventy two.

(16:47):
You know, spring break, you want to get out of
the gloam of Michigan and so down you go to
Fort Lauderdale or Daytona Beech or whatever and have fun.
And there's always these annoying Christians that are trying to
spoil your right and they're you know, talking about this
and so I was willing to engage them because I
thought they were nuts. I was raised Roman Catholic, but
by the time I was eighteen, I was done with that.

(17:10):
You know, I had no conviction was actually true. And
when I realized it was wasn't true. Why should I
believe that? I'm off? And I thought, by the way,
that I had tried Christianity, Oh yeah, been there, done that,
But I hadn't obviously, and at least my own experience
with Catholicism, which by the way, was pre Vatican two,

(17:31):
so our advances were still Latin, and Vatican two moved
Catholicism in a whole different direction that I don't think
has been good. That's another discussion. But I'm not making
a sweeping statement about Catholics and their convictions. I'm just saying,
in my case, I blew this off. I don't want that, Ben,
They're done that. And I was embracing the world. And

(17:53):
this was nineteen sixty eight, was when I graduate high school.
I'm telling you that there was the Beatles, there was
the Rolling Stones, there was the anti war movement, there
was free love. There was everything exploding on the scene,
which was absolutely fascinating to a young man like myself
who had just kind of thrown off the shackles of
religion and I'm embracing a whole the world in a

(18:15):
new way. And this is one of the things that
really touched me by watching this biopic on Bill Bobby Dylan,
because as we're trafficking through sixty to sixty five, the
period of that film, I'm listening to all this music
that was not only familiar to me, but the words mattered,

(18:35):
you know, the words mattered, you know, like a rolling stone,
you know, with no direction home, you know, a complete unknown.
Well that when you read all the lyrics of that song,
he was kind of saying, this is a dismal life.
But for me, that line just stood out. I didn't
wasn't paying attention to everything. You just picked that. Yeah
that's me, man, I'm a rolling stone. I got no direction,

(18:56):
nobody's telling me what to do. I'm not going home.
I had a bad relation with my dad. I'm gone
and that was very liberating. And so when I'm listening
to this, I was getting very emotional watching the movie.
I did actually a number of times, but part of
it was this identification with this period where I was
going through this stuff. So that was a big deal,

(19:17):
and it wasn't until years later, So that was sixty eight.
By the time nineteen seventy three, my younger brother had
become a Christian and he was talking to me more
about Jesus. Now that's a more personal relationship, and I
kind of shined him on. He was more of the job.
We were all in athletics, but he was the real
accomplished jock, you know. And I thought, Okay, he needs that.

(19:38):
I don't. I was the only child of five that
went to university and I was an honors college at
Missigan State. Blah blah blah. I'm too smart for that,
that was my thinking. Yeah, but we were both in
southern California in nineteen seventy three for different reasons. But
he really honed in on me, And all I can
say is that I just got warned out by the

(20:01):
message that he was offering with no apologetics. He really
loved me, he was He told me, wants Greg the
things that I'm telling you are true. One day you're
going to find this out. I hope that when you do,
it's not too late. Notice that was a very straightforward,
honest statement, and the kind of statement. A lot of

(20:22):
people aren't willing to say nowadays because they kind of
gussie all this up and with God being, oh, he
loves you, You're wonderful, blah blah blah. You know, it's,
by the way, just a point of information. There's fourteen
times the Gospel is preached in the Book of Acts,
and not a single time is the love of God mentioned.

(20:43):
These were the people who were trained by Jesus. By
the way, their message is different. You want to know
what the message is than all your viewers whatever, can
go back and check it out. But that's what I did.
I isolated all these passages. I wanted to see what
the message was.

Speaker 3 (20:55):
And by the way, I say these things, and you know,
people get mad, but I'm letting you say it is great.

Speaker 2 (21:01):
Okay.

Speaker 1 (21:03):
You give me a lot of latitude, you give me
a rope to hang myself.

Speaker 2 (21:05):
No, that's okay.

Speaker 1 (21:08):
I mean to get now quickly to the to the point.
After I became a Christian, I didn't have any of
this stuff, and I had all kinds of questions that
still need to answer. I was still pro abortion, a
still pro evolution in the Darwinian sense. I was still
let's see, you know, pre metal sex, I didn't work
that thing out, you know all, and there were a

(21:30):
lot of stuff that but I was convinced that Jesus
was the Savior and the grace of God was real,
and I was now a recipient of the grace of God,
and that changed everything, and so the other things. My
statement is that you know, God catches this fish first
and then he cleans them, you know, And I think
that's an actually theologically accurate way of looking at it.

(21:53):
And it was afterwards. I still had my own questions,
and I'm in I mean U c l A. And
I've got people on the streets of Westwood Village and
there are all kinds of religious trips being peddled at
that time, and I want to tell them about Jesus,
and I have nothing to say in response to all
of the challenges they offer me. So very quickly I

(22:14):
got involved in a Christian community that I moved into
four months after I became a Christian, maybe five and
February first of seventy four. And I stayed there for
two and a half years, and I got lots of
training and teaching from guys that had been with the
campus crusade for many years, and they all got mad

(22:35):
at Dick da I'm sorry at Bill Bright at the
same time, and they left and they started this Christian community.
I mentioned the name Dick Day. He was one of
the teachers there, and he had disciple Josh mcdell, and
they all had DTS education Dallas Theological Seminary. So I
kind of fell into this incredible environment where I had
Christian community, lots of Christians around me, we all Jesus freaks,

(22:59):
and nevertheless, we had people with street experience and evangelism
and good solid theology that were there teaching us and
training us on a regular basis in that school. And
it was called the Jesus Christ Light and Powerhouse. Sounds
kind of corny, but it was great. How I set
a trajectory for my life. Anyway, I've taken up too
much time. Granger with that along answer.

Speaker 3 (23:20):
I asked you to talk here. People are used to
hearing me talk. This is wonderful. Yeah, So what I'm hearing.
Part of what I'm hearing in this is that you
took the time, as Paul did, as the apostle Paul did,
to get educated, to be bored into before you came
out and were and were shaking up the world with

(23:41):
books like Taxis.

Speaker 1 (23:42):
Yeah that that first came out in two thousand and nine.

Speaker 2 (23:48):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (23:49):
Long, So what was I that's seventy three, eighty three,
ninety three, two thousand and three, that I was thirty
thirty five years old Christ before I wrote that book,
thirty five years of speaking on university campuses and doing radio. Well,

(24:10):
I hadn't been doing radio only ten years at that point,
no more like twenty years. In any event, there was
lots of time that I had logged, and all of
the things that are in that book Tactics were things
that developed. It crystallized in my mind over time. I
began doing this and that and the other thing, and
oh wait that doesn't work well, how about this? And

(24:32):
reflecting on these things. And I was also I already
had a master's de gaate apologetics. I was ten, like
two thousand and nine, I was like fifteen years actually,
I completed my master's degree in philosophy under JP Moorland.
And so I had a lot of different stuff that

(24:53):
I'd been building up. Kind of being a student of
my craft is the way I usually put it. That
then all kind of came together in this book in
two thousand and nine, and then I expanded on it
thirty five percent in the ten year anniversary edition, which
is the one you flashed right, Yeah, got the red
thing at the top.

Speaker 2 (25:10):
Yeah, that's right.

Speaker 3 (25:11):
So you had many tools in your barn or your toolkit,
and many teachers too great and many teachers are so important.

Speaker 1 (25:19):
Yeah, that were so helpful. I drew from lots of
different people that were either mentors of mine close by
or mentors at a distance.

Speaker 2 (25:28):
That's one. Yeah, wonderful.

Speaker 3 (25:31):
And when was it that you developed this idea of
the I don't know how you say it, the impossible question,
the unanswerable question, and that is, oh are you telling.

Speaker 1 (25:42):
Me the one that's online?

Speaker 3 (25:43):
If I don't believe the way you believe, Yeah, then
I'm going to help.

Speaker 1 (25:47):
Well, you know, that was put to me by d
Pak Chilpra, who is probably the most well known New
Age guru in the world. I mean, he's one of
the few people who are recognized by his first name
only Dpak, you know. And I think that interview happened
in like two thousand, Well it's before the book came out,
maybe two thousand and eight, because Les Strobel, who sponsored

(26:10):
that event, then wanted to write the introduction to to Tactics,
and that's when he hit me with that question, and
so I use that kind of as a foil his statement.
But of course it's come up before and when people
it's like, it's the way they ask the question. If
I don't believe just like you do, then you're saying

(26:32):
I'm going to hell. Well, it's a very manipulative way
to ask the question because it makes it sound like
you're so egotistical. People have to believe just like you
or they're going to be punished, and you're happy they're
going to be punished because they're not agreeing with you.
And so this is a question that has to be

(26:53):
handled carefully. And I have been asked versions of that
in a number of different ways. And in that little
clip that you are making reference to that standard reason
is put online, I explain the best way around that.
I can't remember all the details of what I said
way back when when that was up there, but it's
basically the way I approach it. Actually a dpak what

(27:17):
I said to him, because now we're on TV okay,
and you've got to really manage your time, well, in
a situation like that, and I deflected it. In his case,
he asked the question, but I deflected it. I said, no,
that's not what I'm saying, because I wasn't saying. If
everybody believes doesn't believe, just like I believe, you know what,

(27:39):
that covers a lot of ground. Right, They're going to hell,
all right, Nobody goes to hell, even if you just
isolated to the issue of Jesus. Nobody goes to hell
because I don't believe in Jesus, not a single person.
The criterion for judgment is right there in Revelation twenty.
The books are open and everyone is judged according to

(28:01):
their deeds. They're not judged as to whether Jesus saved
them or not. So Jesus is the doctor. He's not
the disease. He's not the thing that kills people. Okay,
it's kind of like some you look at a tombstone
that says cause of death, stupidity. He didn't go to

(28:21):
the doctor. You know, well, the doctor might have saved him,
but the doctor didn't kill him. Right, it's the disease
that killed him or not going to the doctor didn't
kill him. And in the same way. The point here
is is that everyone, let me look at I'll put
it this way if I have a second in this
because I was asked this question by Dennis Prager, who
maybe a lot of your listeners know, and I'm known

(28:42):
for forty years. And he had me in a Q
and a session. He's Jewish, and he had me in
a Q and a session with probably three or four
hundred Jews, and he asked me the question is we talk?
He knew my answer, but he's trying to be a
foil for the conversation with the Jewish audience. He said,

(29:04):
ask me if Jesus is the only way of salvation
and believing in him. Well, here's all these Jews that
don't believe in Jesus. So and I told him this.
So they just said, yes, you get the wrong impression.
It'll sound anti Semitic, which, by the way, when people
ask this question, it's meant to make the Christian look foolish.

Speaker 2 (29:20):
Yes, okay.

Speaker 1 (29:22):
And so what I said is, so let me explain it.
I said, people think that, you know, God looks down
on the world and sees all these religious clubs, and
he plays favorites. I mean, this is the way it
sounds to some people who are exclusivistic. He plays favorites,
and for a long time the Jews were his favorites.

(29:44):
Then he got really mad at the Jews. Now the
Christians are his favorites, and to hell with everyone else. Yeah,
kind of quite literally, I said, that's not the way
it happens. God is not looking at religious clubs. He's
looking at a world of human beings that he longs
to be in relationship with.

Speaker 2 (29:59):
The is.

Speaker 1 (30:00):
They've rebelled against him, every single one. Yes, now this
is a problem. Now they're guilty for rebelling against the
sovereign of the universe. They've broken his laws countless times
every day. So now what So he offers a pardon
if you take the pardon on the grounds that he

(30:22):
offers it Jesus who paid the penalty in our place
and a Jewish audience, they said, much like you would
sacrifice bulls and goats to cover the sin of the people,
in the same way, Jesus now covers the sin of
those who put their confidence in him. Now, if you

(30:43):
don't do that, all right, you're on your own. You
stand in the docket, and you have to give an
accounting for your life such as it is, and you
will be punished for all the crimes that you committed
against God. By the way, that won't be a pretty picture.

Speaker 2 (30:58):
I won't.

Speaker 1 (30:59):
And the good things you do that doesn't work. You
can't balance those out. For one, they won't balance out.
You're always going to lose on that assessment, and secondly
on God's criteria of sin all right. And secondly, even
even in our Jewish jurisprudence system here, you can't just

(31:20):
you know, keep all the laws and be really good citizen.
And the DA gives sins. And anoying said, hey, you
haven't broken any laws. Why don't you knock off a
few gas stations on us because you've got credit in
your account.

Speaker 2 (31:33):
You know.

Speaker 1 (31:34):
Now the law requires to keep them all, and you
keep mall except for one, then you're guilty.

Speaker 2 (31:39):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (31:39):
No, I mean that's the way law works. So that's
not going to help. And I said, so here's the
simple calculus. Either Jesus pays or you pay. Either Jesus
pays or you pay. So it's up to you. Forget
about Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism and all that other stuff. We
all know we're broken. We all know we're guilty, and

(32:01):
you guys all know there's God who is just and
will have justice upon those who deserve it. This is
not good news.

Speaker 3 (32:10):
If you need to get a hold of me for
any reason, go to cameo dot com slash Granger Smith.
In fact, I just literally got a message from Cameo
that says a guy named Ian now has a request
for me. So what I do is I open this
up and I go check out what Ian wants me
to say for him, and for this it is a
happy birthday to Melinda. So I will reach out to Melinda.

(32:32):
I say happy birthday. It's Granger Smith here. I hope
you have an amazing day. And I'm gonna tell her
what else that I have here on the little list
that Ian has given me. And then I send it
back to him and then he has a video message
from me that then goes out to Melinda. It's really cool,
it's super easy. I've been doing this for about six
years now. So if you want to find me and
get a special video message of any kind, go to

(32:53):
a cameo dot com slash Granger Smith.

Speaker 1 (32:56):
So that was essentially the message that A communicated to
that particular group. But it is really the core of
the way I talk to anybody who raises this question
that stops Christians in their tracks because they don't know
how to characterize it. They come up with slogans, Oh,
Jesus is the only way he died for our sins.

(33:17):
Of course that's all true, but it doesn't register with people.
They don't. We have to try to say it in
a way that makes sense to them. I felt like
the explanation I gave to that Jewish audience, it'll lead.
At least it was coherent, you know, they could make

(33:38):
sense to the point I was making. Now, may not
accept it. I suspect most didn't. But nevertheless, if you
look at the parable of the sower in Mark thirteen,
where Jesus explains the parable to the disciples, he mentions
the first ground, which is hard ground on the seed
is thrown on it and the birds take it away,

(33:58):
and he says, this is the devil taking the seeds away.
And I always thought, well, that's the hard headed people
that it just bounces off, and a lot of those
that's not the way Jesus put it. What Jesus says
there in Matthew thirteen is he says, this is the
people who hear the word and do not understand it,

(34:19):
and then the devil takes out what has been sewn
in their heart is what he says. It's getting in
there makes no sense to them. It's gone, and so
we have to talk in a way that at least
makes sense to people. They can't reject something they don't understand,
not in a meaningful way. They still will be judged
for the rebellion. But when we bring an antidote, just

(34:42):
like if a doctor brings an antidote to you, if
they don't understand, if you don't understand what he's talking
about or how to apply the antidote, you're not going
to do it anyway. So there you go.

Speaker 3 (34:50):
So let me ask you something that where do we
reconcile this idea with In Acts twenty, Paul is calling
for the Ephesian elders right to him.

Speaker 2 (35:00):
This is before he goes.

Speaker 3 (35:01):
To Jerusalem, and you know he's got his trial ahead
of him. The Efesian elders know that this is the
last time they're going to be with their beloved Paul,
and he tells them in his short time. There is
the account that Luke gives us. He tells them, I
am innocent of the blood of all because I did
not shrink from declaring to you the whole counsel of God.

(35:26):
Right that, by implication would mean that there is such
a thing as a half council or a quarter council.
What are you saying when? What are you thinking of?
When Paul's talking about the whole council? Where's the danger
of delivering a half council?

Speaker 2 (35:45):
Does that make sense? Yeah?

Speaker 1 (35:47):
It does, But we have I know this passage well.
In fact, I read it last week. I just finished
the book I Acts a couple of days ago. It
just happened to be in my reading. And boy, isn't
it Isn't that the case if you're concern and you're
reading through scripture, it just so happens that something you
just read pops up as an issue and need to
be described. Okay, And I I think that Paul is

(36:13):
not talking there about a culpability before God with regards
to this stuff, like if I don't share my whatever
with certain people, then I am going to be guilty
before God. And so it's either guilt or innocence. I
shared everything, so I'm not guilty before God. I think

(36:35):
I think that what's going on there.

Speaker 3 (36:37):
Yes, and I recoonize we're talking about two different things.
When we're talking about we just got through talking about
the judgment of God. This is we're not talking about
the same the same subject. So I'll just I'll say
that here, Okay.

Speaker 1 (36:49):
I think that yeah, fair enough, Okay, as long as
that that's the distinction is made. Some people might read
that and say, well, okay, now I'm guilty if I correct,
and I am culpable before God. Now. But I think
if you remember the history with the Aphesians, he spent
two years in Ephesus. That's one of the reasons those
relationships are so strong. And when they're they meet at

(37:12):
the beach and he says, I'm not going to see anymore,
and boy, they are really anguished about it. But he
says the time will come when vicious wolves will ravage
the flock. And what he's saying is, before you, I
have told you everything you need to know. I have

(37:33):
given you the full council of God. Now that isn't true.
And a whole bunch of other cities he went to.
He didn't have time to do that. But with the Ephesians.
He did. He spent about two years in the school
of Haranus or whatever he said there and had a
long time with them, working with them. It is a
very spiritually mature group of Christians, and so I think

(37:57):
that statement applies to that group. I've done what was
necessary to protect you. I can't be called to account
for not having given this to you. But as it
turns out, there are lots of other places he didn't
spend much time in at all, and he had to
send Timothy and Titus at other times to choose elders

(38:21):
for those fledgling flocks. He didn't have time to do
the whole council of God. So I think that this
responsibility to give the full counsel of God is a
long term goal that we ought to have as Christian
workers and leaders, if you will. Pastors, however, to keep
communicating to various groups all the things that are important,

(38:42):
and some people you get a lot more time with.
So I have my own team, I call it. I
have twenty people on my staff. Nineteen and four others
of them or five one, two, three four five others
right now are content providers. I have spent a lot
of time with them personally out to dinner at events.

(39:09):
We do regular interactive things online now because we can
do this kind of thing a lot more access, even
though they're spread out now around the country. And I
could say, in some cases it's been twenty years or
nineteen years or fifteen years or whatever. This this group,

(39:29):
I call them my young guns. I'm the old gun.
And I can say to them, I gave you the
full counsel of God because I had the opportunity to
do so, and I was intentionally investing myself in lots
of different ways into their lives all right.

Speaker 2 (39:47):
Now.

Speaker 1 (39:48):
I couldn't say that about you, Granger. You know, I
know you listen to some of the things that standard
reason to read the book. I've offered you something, and
it's true with a lot of people. But those guys,
my young guns, are capable now of protecting the flock
that is is in their charge, Amen giving them the

(40:09):
whole counsul. So I think that's it's not so much
he's saying I'm innocent before God. I think he's saying
with you guys, I'm innocent before you guys.

Speaker 2 (40:19):
Yeah, I read it's the same.

Speaker 3 (40:21):
I think you're absolutely right and the what ends up
happening in ephesis is that wolves do come, and and
not only from the outside, from the inside.

Speaker 2 (40:30):
Is the the scary part.

Speaker 3 (40:34):
And what a what a comfort to know that you
are You are a minister that is so diligent in this,
not only in your team and your your ministry and
your equipping, but also in your personal devotion. You just
mentioned you finished Acts a few days ago. It wouldn't hard,
it wouldn't be hard to understand that you've gone through

(40:55):
Acts hundreds and hundreds of times.

Speaker 1 (40:57):
In your in your life.

Speaker 3 (40:58):
But but but it's still it's still not enough. You
will do that continually till you have.

Speaker 1 (41:04):
Well, let me say something about that because this might
be helpful to viewers, and that is I have people
ask me about techniques of Bible study, techniques of prayer.
I know about Bible study. That I do about prayer.
Prayers almost a complete mystery to me. I do not
understand what might be called the calculus of prayer. And

(41:26):
Lewis made a point, look at you're not dealing with
a machine. You're dealing with a person, and so persons
can say yes, no, maybe, so whatever you know, so
you can't really maybe calculus isn't the right word to
use in a very precise sense, but generally speaking, Gee,
how many prayers do you have to pray? How do
you pray? This is hard for me, and I have

(41:47):
books on prayer that are helpful, but I came down
to this one simple thing. Okay, here's the first rule
of prayer, s granger, pray, the first rule of prayers.

Speaker 2 (42:00):
Pray.

Speaker 1 (42:01):
You learn how to pray by praying. And if you
don't understand anything else, and you can't forget, how I
just pray? You have not because you ask not knock, seek,
not ask, seek knock. You know kind of thing, stay
at it. Just keep doing it even if you're confused.

Speaker 2 (42:16):
Okay.

Speaker 1 (42:16):
And the first rule of Bible is to read. You know,
you can get all kinds of commentaries and get all
this set up and have all these systems, but lots
of times you don't time for the systems. You still
have time to read. Look, here's there's some things you
cannot do tomorrow. You cannot pray today's prayer tomorrow. You
can only pray tomorrow's prayers tomorrow. You cannot read today's

(42:41):
Bible tomorrow. That's tomorrow's Bible. You can only read today's
Bible today. Now sometimes you miss it. You know, I'm traveling,
I get up and the you know, I get that.
But I do have a commitment though I've read through
the Bible a number of times over the up until
that's about twenty four twenty five years as a Christian.

(43:03):
But I camped a lot in passages that I like
the best. I like Proverbs, I like the New Testament.
And then I was challenged by Jay Warner Wallace. He
was doing an event for us, and he was using
his cold case illustrations. But basically he says, you ought
to start at the beginning and read to the end,

(43:23):
and when you're done, start at the beginning and read
to the end. And when you're done, start at the
beginning and read to the end and never stop your
whole life. And so the way, And I've explained this
to my own listeners. How I just have it's over
there in my Bible, which you can't read from here.
But I have a Bible in a year kind of
thing when you check off the chapters and stuff, and

(43:43):
sometimes it's two or three chapters and only read one chapter.
So I just make a notation there. But my goal
is to work through that whole thing, and I don't
care about the year part takes me three to four years.
What I care about is continuing to read through the
material so that I read the whole thing, and then
I get a new thing I printed out, I start

(44:06):
all over. And what this ensures, and this goes back
to your comment about the Ephesian elders, it ensures that
I am exposed to the full council of God. And
it's nothing tricky, nothing fancy, no pressure. You know, if
I don't read three chapters, I mean, some people do
a Bible in the year and by February they're done

(44:28):
because they're too far behind and they can't catch up. Well,
don't worry about the year part. Just keep reading at
your own pace. Make it a regular Usually it's a
chapter a day for me. And if I don't do
it in the morning because I'm traveling whatever, Usually when
I go to bed at night, before I turn in,
I'm reading something. I'll read a psalm, I'll read a

(44:49):
pop I'm working through the psalms and proverbs in my
own home. When I'm on the road, I might look
something else up and read a little section, but I
just want that all just getting into me, even if
I'm not particularly reflective on it, and there is a
sense of the more you do this well, John MacArthur
said long ago, you want to read the Bible so

(45:11):
much that your blood is bibi. I thought that was
pretty clever.

Speaker 2 (45:17):
I think that was very clever.

Speaker 1 (45:18):
So what this represents for me, you know, I'm busy
and everybody's busy, right is we find a way we're
not too busy to eat. Yea, we find a way
to you know, bolt something, sit down, maybe have a
longer bial a lot of time, quicker or whatever. I've
got some protein drink in the back I got to
grab before this is over.

Speaker 2 (45:37):
But the.

Speaker 1 (45:39):
The same thing is true with our spiritual nourishment. It
doesn't have to be complicated. We have to have a
banquet every time we sit down. Just keep eating a
little here, a little there, a little here, a little there,
and keep praying, keep eating with feeding, with the word
and praying.

Speaker 3 (45:55):
And to that analogy, if man can't live on bread alone,
but from every word that comes mouth, goba, I don't
think we should skip. If we don't skip a meal,
we probably shouldn't skip that feast either.

Speaker 2 (46:05):
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (46:06):
Yeah, So I try to regulate or taylor my own
consistent feeding to troublesome schedules. But I don't say, okay,
next week, next month. You know. It's like, by the
way we're working out, you can't do today's work out tomorrow.

(46:29):
That's right, do it today. Tomorrow's workout has his own.
So anyway, maybe that's helpful.

Speaker 3 (46:33):
That's very helpful, And you've been so gracious with your time.
I would be remiss if I didn't ask you, if
you maybe I should say it this way. I'm probably
the last generation that watched the show Colombo. Did you
watch an Yeah? Okay, okay. So my producer sitting in here,
he says he doesn't know Colombo. Yeah, okay, he knows it,

(46:55):
but he didn't watch it. So explain to us Colombo
and how this relates to any of this.

Speaker 1 (47:00):
All right, Well, now we're zooming into the area that
the book covers, and it has to do with evangelism
and how do we traffic in evangelism successfully in a
culture that's largely really mad at Christians who are genuine

(47:20):
followers of Jesus an important qualifier. I don't know if
you know this stranger but something like sixty five percent
of the people in this country self identify as Christians.
Now you know that is I mean, in theological terms,
that's nonsense. I'm not putting down their own thoughts or
beliefs about themselves. I'm just saying Christianity is something very particular.

(47:42):
And if you are a follower of Jesus, remember the
Christians were the disciples, were first called Christians and Antioch.
That means Christians are disciples, at least that's the original sense.
Followers of jeswis discipline, followers of Jesus. That means there's
a certain set of things, they believe in a certain way,
they act to be faithful to crist And so the

(48:03):
world doesn't care about all those other Christians. They care
about those ones that say the same thing about the
nature of reality that Jesus himself said. So that's different,
and that's offensive. I mean, Jesus got himself killed for
good to sake. He wasn't just this wonderful guy that
everybody thought was wonderful. That happened for about a year
and a half, maybe two years into his ministry. But

(48:24):
after that Bread of life dies, of course, John three,
he was on his own. Man, they cut him loose
and they were mad at him. So how do we navigate?
And over the years I, as I reflected on it,
I had developed certain I don't know, maneuvers or techniques

(48:45):
if you will, that made my job easier. But at
the heart of it all and this expressed itself in
what I call the game plan, a tactical game plan,
was using questions to move forward.

Speaker 2 (48:58):
All right.

Speaker 1 (48:59):
Now, in my mind I was trying to think of
a way to characterize this. It had a handle on it,
so to speak, And I thought, Wow, Lieutenant Colombo of
TV fame. Now TV is like a thing of a
bygone era. Now you got cable, you got podcasts, you
got you didn't have to have a TV. You can
get your computer and watch all kinds of stuff. But
TV was the place where everybody congregated, the family did

(49:21):
and watch these programs, you know. And there were individual
individuals that overtime took iconic status, memorable people like Lucy
from I Love Loosely, for example. But it turns out
Lucy is the number two most recognized TV icond of
all time. Lieutenant Columbus number one. And he's a guy
that it was a murder mystery, and he'd come in

(49:44):
and to the murder scene. He's wearing old trench coat.
He's got a scraggly old cigar that he's smoking, and
he's got a pad of paper, but it didn't have
a pen because he didn't bring one. He's got a
bum a pencil off of somebody, you know, and he's
scratching his head and mutter and looking around. And this
guy looks stupid, but he's stupid like a fox because

(50:05):
he's got a plan. And at some point he'll, you know,
scratch has had like his deep and painful thought. And
then they'll say, I don't know. There's something about this
thing that bothers me. He wanted to ask you a question,
so my Columbu imitation, and so he asked the question.
It works a lot better with the cigar, and that's
right you from the stage. But in any event, but

(50:26):
he asked the question, he gets information. You're very intelligent.
One more thing, you know, any one more kings them
to death. Question after question after question after question, and
he says, look, I can't help it. It's a habit.
And this is a habit Christians ought to get into.
If you learn to navigate with questions. There are all

(50:47):
kinds of advantages to that. For one, they're polite. You know,
you know you ask questions of other people. I was
asking earlier about your own career and navigating that. Of
course you're asking me questions, that's your job situation. But
I want to find out about you and that you
probably felt good about that, so that's nice. Not only that,
when we ask questions, we're getting information. So now I

(51:08):
got a lot more information about you. Now that was
just a curiosity. It wasn't like I'm trying to lead
you to some spiritual end at that point. But a
lot of times the information we get will help us
to know where to go next. All right, we get
you're getting intel. Another thing is and this is and
this is really critical. Questions keep you safe. Questions keep

(51:34):
you safe. You realize when you're asking questions, you're not
giving your own view, and so your own view can't
be attacked. When people Christians might start making say, well
the Bible's word of God? Really, who says who? Oh,
now it's back in the Christian Maybe the Christian has
an answer to that. But notice how the statement, which

(51:56):
was a claim kind of in the face of thetic
that was going to get a response. Okay, put up
or shut up. Okay, But if you don't say, if
you don't make a claim, if you want to talk
about the Bible and say so, what's your view of
the Bible, you're not making any claims about it. You're

(52:17):
asking for their claims. So in principle, they're the ones
who are vulnerable. Now we're not going to take a
listed advantage of that, but we're getting information from them.
So questions keep you safe. And now here's the third thing,
fourth reason that questions are really valuable, and it's manifest
right here in our conversation. In this conversation between you

(52:42):
and me, Granger, I'm doing all the work. You're just
sitting there asking me questions here and there. But the
conversation is completely in your control because of the questions
you ask in the driver's seat. And that's a critical

(53:03):
quality of questions, because when you're asking questions, you're in
the driver's yat of the conversation. That is, your questions
will direct that conversation wherever you want it to go. Now,
if you hit a dead end, you could just start
David in the interview, you say, let me go this way.
I'm gonna ask this question. Now, now we understand that's
the nature of the interviews like this, But at the
same time, the same dynamic is in play when we

(53:25):
are in conversations with other people. I think Christians are
nervous about having conversations about Jesus. Now, I didn't say
faith conversations. I don't like that phrase because the word
faith is so corrupted for any good use. People think
blind faith and leap of faith. So in your conversations
about Jesus, it's no I forgot the direction I was

(53:52):
going to go with that particular point. When you're having discussions,
you want to find out as much as you can
about the other person's point of view. All right, you're
going to do that by asking questions. Because oh and
by the way, that's was the thought. Christians are sitting
on the bench instead of having those conversations because they

(54:13):
don't want to get stuck. They don't want to get
challenged in a way. They don't know how to respond.
It's embarrassing, it's awkward, and as far as they're concerned,
they might be thinking, well, it's just going to hurt
the gospel, it won't help. But if your commitment is
to using questions in a productive way, and that's what
the Tactics book teaches, among a whole lot of other things.
But the core of the first section is the game plan,

(54:34):
which I call Colombo after the infamous Lieutenant Columbo. If
you use those, you're going to find that you can
navigate very safely and very productively in conversations, even if
you're not very clever. I promise when I just liked

(54:55):
this last weekend and I was in Franklin, just south
of you're very familiar, so and I said, I'm going
to give you a game plan in the next twenty
minutes after I did my preliminary stuff that is going
to allow you to converse with confidence in any situation,

(55:15):
no matter how little you know or how knowledgeable or
aggressive or even obnoxious the other person happens to be.
So that's my promise. And in that case, I'm only
giving the first two steps of the three step game plan.
The third step is more advanced, but the first step
is simple. And when you start employing even those two

(55:39):
steps as a total novice in the not only in
the use of the game plan, but as a novice,
as a Christian, You're going to be amazed at how
how much easier your conversations are going to be, how
much safer you're going to feel, and amazingly, how much
you can accomplish in people's lives. I have a book

(56:00):
to the tactics and book and that's I think I
have it here. Yeah, it's and it's a sequel. So
it really capitalizes on the third step of the game plan,
which is using questions to make a point. And here's
that book. It's called The Streets of Arts.

Speaker 2 (56:16):
There we go.

Speaker 1 (56:16):
That's great to get it right there, it's called the
subtitle using questions to answer Christianity stuff has challenges. How
do you use a question to answer a challenge?

Speaker 2 (56:25):
Which is what Jesus did many times.

Speaker 1 (56:27):
Many times, exactly right. There's over two hundred times he
asked questions in the gospels. So, but in here, I
have an anecdote, and I from a gal who called
the radio show, so I had a recording of it.
I got it all right, she said, the very first
time I used the tactical approach is what happened. It
was amazing, she said, Oh, what the heck, I'll just
try it. She was in a bookstore looking for a
Christian book, and she was asking one of the you know,

(56:51):
the people who worked at the store to help her
find the book. And then she started using the tactical
approach and using some of the initial questions. It's a
great account in there about how God used that. I
also have in the Street Smarts book. I talk about
this waitress, this waitress in Seattle that you know I.

(57:14):
I don't know if you know this, but most people don't.
I'm not a morning person and so you know, I
take a long time to get rolling. And I got
my before my first cup of coffee. I'm an atheist,
you know, so one of those kinds of things. So anyway,
this I did a Friday night of it all day
Saturday in Seattle. I'm rolling out my robber bag. On
Sunday morning at or dark thirty, I got to go

(57:34):
to a church and preach at two services. I'm beat up,
I'm tired, but I'm still trying to wake up. And
I don't want to talk about Jesus. I don't want
to talk about God. I don't want to talk leave
me alone. I just want my coffee.

Speaker 2 (57:48):
Yeah, but this guy comes up to me.

Speaker 1 (57:49):
She's way too animated for me that morning. This the waitress,
Oh God, go away, I'm thinking. Then she says, you know,
what are you doing here at all? And I figured
to get rid of her, and I say, well, I'm
going to preach out a church. I figure off. She goes, yeah, yeah,
but she says, oh good, No, what's good about that?

(58:11):
For her?

Speaker 2 (58:11):
To her right right? Yeah?

Speaker 1 (58:13):
So I said why, why is that good? Are you
a Christian? I mean that's possible. She says, no, I'm
not a Christian. And then she says I used to
be a Christian, but I'm not anymore now. She says,
the universe takes Caribby, and I'm thinking, huh. So I
asked her, I said, how could the universe take care
of you? I'm confused about that. Now, For people who

(58:37):
don't know the tactical game plan, the very first step
is asking the question what do you mean by that?
Or some variation? All right. Now, Remember I'm not trying
to witness. But she says this thing, and I don't understand.
So I'm saying, like, what do you mean? And she said, no,
the universe is not a person. I said, well, how
can it take care of you. She said, oh, well
maybe God takes careby Oh okay, well that makes sense.

(58:58):
And then she says God is the sure and I'm thinking,
what does that mean? So I asked her about that.
I'm friendly, sure, you know, and she just kept going
on with these kind of confused New agey kind of
statements and I couldn't and finally she just gave up
and left, and honest to goodness, as I was sitting there,

(59:20):
I was thinking, in my mind, there's not a single
thing that I said that had any impact on her whatsoever.
She was into her own New Age world and she
tried Christianity.

Speaker 2 (59:31):
She's done with that.

Speaker 1 (59:31):
Off she goes, you brought my breakfast, And when she
brought the bill, here's what she said to me. She said,
nobody has ever asked me questions about my view before.
And it got me thinking. Now, if you read the book,
you know this. My goal of asking these questions is
not to lead people to Christ. That's the harvest. You

(59:51):
got to have the gardening before you have the harvest.
I just want a garden, and all I want to
do is get them thinking. And she said that got
me thinking. Now, my question is did I want to
witness to this girl. No, I didn't want a witness.
Leave me alone. So here, even against my will by

(01:00:13):
in almost in a knee jerk way, with my inner
Columbo coming out, responding to the crazy thing she's saying
to me. God still used it. That's just the first step.

Speaker 2 (01:00:27):
It's amazing.

Speaker 1 (01:00:28):
Yeah, and I've heard this from other people before. I
tell that accountant, but that's in the Streets of March book,
which goes into more detail. But well's there's lots of illustrations.

Speaker 3 (01:00:37):
Let's put legs on this conversation and kind of bring it,
bring it full circle from the question now of are
you telling me that if I don't.

Speaker 2 (01:00:47):
Believe the way you believe, I'm going to hell?

Speaker 3 (01:00:51):
Because now you would you would you would answer that
with a question now?

Speaker 1 (01:00:55):
So yeah, okay, so we're kind of in a role
play right now.

Speaker 2 (01:00:59):
Yeah. Sure.

Speaker 1 (01:01:00):
Now I have the thing that I explained to you
before firmly in my mind, but sometimes I may get
to that in a different route. And so when you
said that you're telling me, I said, let me Granger,
let me ask you a question in a way that
is kind of what I'm saying. But what is it
you think that means all right, So I think people
don't understand what's going on there, and so I'm tossing

(01:01:23):
it back to you.

Speaker 2 (01:01:25):
So that's the first stay.

Speaker 1 (01:01:26):
Yeah, this is a way of putting it.

Speaker 2 (01:01:28):
What do you mean by that first step?

Speaker 1 (01:01:29):
That's what do you mean? Well, yeah, it's just this
is just that for I'm getting more clarification. Okay, But
you asked that in a certain way because I think
you have a certain understanding of what you think my
view is. Even though I could say yes, strictly speaking
to the question you asked, it's a distortion of my view.
So I want to ask you, what is it you

(01:01:50):
think my view is with regards to Jesus that I
would say such a thing. And so now it's your turn.
But notice I just I just deflected it. Now if
this isn't for the purpose of merely deflecting the challenge, correct,
it's to try to get to the heart of the matter.

(01:02:11):
And and uh, And you might say, I have no
idea why you'd say such a thing like that. It
sounds really arrogant to me. Okay, it sounds like you're
in and everybody else's out.

Speaker 2 (01:02:23):
Okay, So let's continue the role play.

Speaker 3 (01:02:24):
So I say, I think that you're completely arrogant and
you're narrow minded.

Speaker 2 (01:02:29):
That's okay, that's what I think.

Speaker 1 (01:02:30):
So I might say, how well this is? This is
probably what I wouldn't be what i'd say here, but
I'll just give it a little tool. How would if
I agreed with you that I was arrogant and I
was narrow minded? Would that change the truth of the

(01:02:53):
claim I'm making about Jesus.

Speaker 2 (01:02:57):
Let's stop. She didn't.

Speaker 1 (01:02:58):
I would say, yeah, Well, the answer there's no, obviously,
because arrogant people can be right about things right narrow
minded people. So that's a change of the subject. Okay,
And I might use that under different circumstances. But then
i'd ask, okay, Granger, Okay, this is all about Jesus
and what he did. So here's the question I want
to ask you. And maybe you don't have an answer,

(01:03:20):
and that's okay, But what do you think Jesus came
to do? As far as you understand.

Speaker 3 (01:03:27):
It, And he came to he was a good person,
and he came to tell people good morals and how
to live their life.

Speaker 1 (01:03:33):
Okay, well he did do that. There's no question at
all about that he was a good person, he did
say those things. Where did you get that idea?

Speaker 2 (01:03:42):
Though?

Speaker 1 (01:03:42):
I'm just curious.

Speaker 2 (01:03:43):
I just I hear other people, you know, Christians talking
this way.

Speaker 1 (01:03:47):
So have you ever read Jesus.

Speaker 3 (01:03:51):
I know enough about Jesus to not need to read
them seriously.

Speaker 1 (01:03:56):
Okay, well on this issue, just saying here, Granger, and
we're still on this issue. This is a really important question.
So if you're getting your information about Jesus on this
really important question from a whole bunch of other people
rather than straight from the horse's mouth, do you think
there's a chance you might be misunderstanding Jesus.

Speaker 3 (01:04:19):
I think there might be a chance, But I think
that the matter is I don't really see why God
would use one religion above another, and so I find
no need to really understand what Jesus is saying.

Speaker 1 (01:04:33):
Okay, well, I definitely can understand how you would say
that if it was just a matter of choosing a
religious club. So let me try to make a parallel.
What if what if you had a really bad pain
in your abdomen and acute man, it's like, oh man,

(01:04:54):
something's wrong, maybe it's appendicitis, And then I said, you
need to a dentist.

Speaker 2 (01:05:03):
Yeah, so that's pretty bad.

Speaker 1 (01:05:04):
Yeah, I say, wait, what makes you think that one
person should care about one doctor over another doctor? Doctors
or doctors, whatever, Just go to a doctor you like,
a cheap one. Whatever. But you're going to say, wait
a minute, Dennis does a different thing than what I need.

Speaker 2 (01:05:24):
Okay.

Speaker 1 (01:05:25):
So I'm just giving you a parallel here, Granger, to
help you to see that it's not so easy to say,
how could God prefer one religion over another? If God's
trying to accomplish something, then you have to look at
what he's trying to accomplish and see if those different
religions reflect that. By the way, I'm not sure about
your own convictions, but a lot of people think that

(01:05:47):
all religions are basically the same and they all kind
of one way or another lead to God.

Speaker 2 (01:05:51):
That's what I think.

Speaker 1 (01:05:53):
Yeah, okay, so Christians think that Jesus is the Messiah
and Jews think that he's not. Now he either is
or he isn't. How can they both be right on
that really important factor?

Speaker 3 (01:06:11):
Yeah, that's a good question. You know, Mohammed is claiming
the same thing. So that's why I think all religions
are just false man made ideas.

Speaker 1 (01:06:21):
Oh okay, well, now we're talking about something entirely different
that their man made is because Mohammed, Christianity teaches that
Jesus died and across and rose in the dead. Jews
think that Jesus died and across, but he didn't rise
from the dead. Mohammed taught that Jesus didn't rise from
the dead because he didn't even die in across. Now,

(01:06:45):
this whole idea of the death and resurrection of Christ,
you know this just because you live in America and
Easter is coming up, is a big deal to Christians.
This central right. So everybody can't be right on this.
How about this one. I'm just talking about one idea.
Muslims and Christians and Jews think that God is personal,

(01:07:07):
kind of like you and I are in a certain sense.
You can talk to him, He does stuff. Now, Hindus
think that God is not personal, he's kind of a
force or something like that. Well, he's either personal or
not personal if he exists. So if he's impersonal, the
Hindus are right, and the Jews and Christians are wrong
on God. And if he's personal, then they're right on God.

(01:07:32):
And the Hindus are wrong, but they can all both
be right, all right, So how is it that all
of these religions are basically the same? And I'll get
you to God when they don't even agree on what
God's like. So I'm just going to a point you
made a little bit earlier, that all religions are legitimate
past the God. I'm just trying to get you to
think about that, so that makes sense to you.

Speaker 3 (01:07:53):
I can understand here, mister Cochl that you are evidently
you have some knowledge in this subject. And so I'm
still kind of wrapping around to my first question. So
why is it obviously somebody's right and somebody's wrong. You
made a good point about that, okay, And why do
you think you're right?

Speaker 2 (01:08:10):
How does that? How could you say you're right and
I'm wrong?

Speaker 1 (01:08:15):
Simple answer? Jesus Jesus. And I don't mean Jesus in
a book. I mean that Jesus in history, feet on
the ground, all right, Jesus of Nazareth, all right, he's
a guy who lived and died and then something strange

(01:08:35):
happened because whom they put him in was empty three
days later. And there's a whole bunch of people who
said they saw him alive after he was dead, which
is the basic definition of a resurrection. And then they
in a certain sense of time that were willing to
sign their testimony and blood. These people are all willing

(01:08:57):
to die. Now, how could they be lying? Incidentally, the
points I just made about Jesus lived and he died,
and the tomb was empty, and these guys say they
saw him. These are facts of history. When I say
facts of history, I'm not just advancing my own opinion
about this. These are the facts that virtually all historians
of the era, no matter what their personal convictions acknowledge,

(01:09:21):
are well attested by the historical evidence in the primary
source documents that we possess. So I mean, they don't
all think Jesus rose in the dead. But then we
have to ask the question, what was the point of
these guys saying he did if he didn't, if they
didn't experience that, Because you know, lots of people die

(01:09:41):
for a lie, but not if they know it's a lie.
And I'll tell you the rule about lying, Granger, and
every kid knows this, all right, tell a lie that
gets you something good, You don't tell a lie that
gets you whipped, beaten with rods, stoned, crucified up side down,
or beheaded. This is not a good lie, no, but

(01:10:04):
this is what these disciples who said they saw Jesus
were willing to endure. Based on their confession of seeing Jesus.
These guys weren't lying. That's so when I look at
the options, and there I got Jesus, a very unique
individual who I can establish some certain historical facts pretty clearly,

(01:10:28):
and then I reason from those historical facts, what's the
best explanation for the fact that Jesus was dead and
then the tomb was empty, and then all these people
were willing to on the pain of death. They didn't
all die matery staffs, but lots of them did, and
they all got persecuted. We're willing to say we saw

(01:10:50):
this guy, we saw him after he rose from the dead,
and we're communicating this message and what this resurrection seals.
And maybe the goes to your point a little bit
more clearly. And I made reference to this earlier before
the role play. Actually, but in any event, one of Jesus'

(01:11:13):
followers wrote this that the resurrection of Christ declared with
power that he was the son of God. In other words,
he was God come down. Now why did he come down?
Because he cared enough about you and me, who are
violators of God's law and are guilty. And I don't

(01:11:35):
need to tell you that because you already know it
all right. Everybody knows about themselves. And he was willing
to take the punishment that is due us so that
we could be forgiven. He's going to pay the penalty,
He's going to take the wrap. And he did that,

(01:11:57):
and then when he rose from the dead, that showed
he accomplished what he was after. Now you have a choice.
You can either go with Jesus or go it alone.
By the way, Jesus means forgiveness and going it alone
means just the opposite justice.

Speaker 2 (01:12:18):
I think I was just saved. I think this table
was saved there.

Speaker 1 (01:12:23):
But let me just this is a great role play,
and I appreciate you going there. And notice how when
I explained how I responded to that question with the
Jewish audience. I have this tough in my mind, but
I kind of adapted it to our circumstance and I
used lots of questions and then when it got to
the point where I really needed to explain I used
this illustrations that I hope would make sense, but there

(01:12:45):
was not a word of Christian psycho babble. And that
entire explanation true. And this is something that I think
is really important in the Tactics book, as the Tactics says,
watch your language. And that's what I'm talking about Christian psychobabble,
because it doesn't communicate. It's just religious noise to most people,
and I think the most Christians too.

Speaker 3 (01:13:07):
And so for people listening, can you give us a
few of these words what I like to call Christian ease?

Speaker 1 (01:13:13):
Oh yeah, so what are some of these words? There's
a whole category. Well, notice I didn't say saved. I
didn't use the word faith. I didn't use the word believe.
When I talked about my own if you will, my
own the content of my faith. I talk about my convictions.
If I were to say I'm impressing you or granger,

(01:13:33):
I was going to challenge you. I'm not going to
say receive Jesus as Lord and savior. I'm going to
say I want you to trust Christ because he did
something for you you don't want to have to do
for yourself. He took the punishment. And then I want
you to follow Jesus and never stop.

Speaker 2 (01:13:51):
It's great, it's so clear, practical.

Speaker 1 (01:13:55):
Lord and Savior. Now those terms mean something, but they
don't mean anything to the other guy, and they're largely
stale Christian religious phrases even to us. You know, I
have this whole category of pastor speak. You can talk
to a pastor, you know, at the grocery store, and
he's going to talk a certain way the minute he

(01:14:16):
gets up on the dayas at a Sunday services, he
often pastors speak and he's saying all this, Amen, brothers, Amen, brothers,
what a blessing, hallelujah, well, hallelujahs, praising God. But I
mean all that other stuff. Why pastors say amen, amen, Amen,
they're trying to get a rise out of the audience.
Because what they're saying doesn't get a rise is out

(01:14:37):
of the audience. So stop doing that. Just preach in
a manner that affects the audience. Don't ask for an
artificial applause. Well, on that.

Speaker 3 (01:14:46):
Note, let me ask you one more question. So back
to the role play. So I say I want to
know more about this kid. Could you pray for me?
What would be the contents of your short prayer with
everything we said.

Speaker 1 (01:14:59):
So, yeah, of course I might ask why would you
want me to I'd be happy to pray for your grature,
but why do you want me to pray? And if
I don't have an answer to that, I don't know
how to pray properly? Okay, So I mean I might
say that, or I might just jump into it. I
use that as an illustration. This is another step of colombo.
What do you mean by that? What's going on there?

(01:15:21):
Help me out? Notice how it's interactive, and every step
that I can get more information from you. I want
to do that because it keeps you involved and it
helps me understand you better. But I might say, Father,
let me say, well, okay, i'll make this comment after
the father. I'm praying for a granger right now, and

(01:15:41):
I'm so glad that you gave us an opportunity to
have this conversation. And I know there's a lot of
things he's confused about, and that's okay, it's the learning process.
But I pray that the things that I shared with
him today will find a place in his heart, that
you will take these things that I've said and open

(01:16:04):
his understanding to them so that he can benefit from
your wonderful mercy and be rescued by the Lord Jesus Christ,
who is his only hope. So be it.

Speaker 2 (01:16:20):
It's beautiful, that's beautiful, So be it.

Speaker 3 (01:16:23):
Thanks, And I'm not I'm not going to say amen
anymore because you called me, so be it.

Speaker 1 (01:16:27):
I'll occasionally look at when you say amen from the
people know you're finished. It's a way of saying that.
But but I don't ever say almost ever saying Jesus
name amen, because praying in Jesus name doesn't mean saying
in Jesus name. There's not a prayer in the New
Testament that ever ends that way, and there's lots of
prayers there. True, you know, it means the awareness that

(01:16:50):
we go before the Father because Jesus has given us access,
we're going in his name. As long as we have
that awareness, we're fine. So I don't I just usually
leave that behind, you know. And now I'm from the sixties,
so instead of saying aimn, sometimes I might say right on,
right on, Well, you.

Speaker 3 (01:17:11):
Have been so gracious with your time, and I appreciate
you so much. I could probably listen for a couple
more hours, just to listen to you talk.

Speaker 1 (01:17:18):
So I get talk for a couple of borrowers. Maybe
we can do this another time.

Speaker 3 (01:17:22):
I wish I could be on Kirk Cameron's level where
I could just send you birthday cards every year.

Speaker 2 (01:17:26):
But maybe I'll give to someow.

Speaker 1 (01:17:30):
He is a sweetheart. I don't get that for everybody.
I don't even get that for my family, my old girls.
But he hasn't done.

Speaker 2 (01:17:37):
That for a while.

Speaker 1 (01:17:38):
But it was just something he did and just just
to encourage me as a brother, you know. And anyway,
So I'm glad to have been here with you, Granger,
and I am open to other conversations, so no worries.

Speaker 2 (01:17:52):
Excellent.

Speaker 3 (01:17:53):
Thanks for joining me on the Grangersmith podcast. I appreciate
all of you guys. You could help me out by
rating these podcasts on tunes. If you're on YouTube, subscribe
to this channel, hit that little like button and notification
spell so that you never miss anytime I upload a video.
Yigi