August 13, 2025 • 30 mins
Sandy Melgar finds herself in a cramped interview room being questioned by cops, but is she there as a witness or a suspect?
Just hours after her husband was found murdered and she was found shut in a cupboard, her arms tied behind her back, Santy agrees to a police interview. She tells detectives she’s not well and that she can’t remember what happened. They want her to take a lie detector test.
Host: Maggie Robinson Katz
Producer: Maggie Latham
Script consultant: Emma Weatherill
Sound designer: Tom Brignell
Production support from Dan Marchini, Elaina Boateng and Mabel Finnegan-Wright.
Managing Executive Producer (iHeart): Cristina Everett
Executive Producer (BBC Studios): Joe Kent
Hands Tied is a BBC Studios production for iHeartPodcasts
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
BBC Sudas. Hey, Hi'm Maggie. Just a quick heads up
before we start. The series does contain some descriptions of
violence and deals with adult themes. Jim and Sandy are
(00:21):
at their favorite restaurant, Los Cucos, their most love dishes
spread across the table. There's a fish cancun for Sandy
and agorace for Jim, which is something like a thick
corn tortilla topped with beans, meat and salsa. Jim's had
his hair freshly cut for the occasion, and the pictures
(00:45):
I've seen of him, he looks kind of like your
classic dad. He's got a buttoned down, collared shirt tucked
into khakis, his BlackBerry clip to his belt. Jim's petite
at only five seven, with a slim frame and wire glasses.
Sandy's just a bit shorter, with shoulder length blonde hair
(01:07):
and tight, square framed glasses. That night, she's of vision
and brown with brown slacks, sweater and boots. I can
imagine her laughing as she leans in her hand cupped
around a pina colada. It's December twenty second, twenty twelve,
and Jim and Sandy are celebrating their thirty second wedding anniversary,
(01:31):
an amazing achievement for any relationship. They finish their meal,
pay the bill, and head out into the cool Texas night,
stopping at CBS to pick up some mixers for drinks,
sprite and coke. They make their way back home, leaving
the suburban sprawl of shopping centers and chain restaurants to
(01:56):
the tree lined street of their cult de sac home
and pull into their garage. Sandy enters first, while Jim
follows behind, his hands full with the leftovers from dinner
and the drinks they purchased at CBS. Sandy heads to
the master bedroom and into the adjoining bathroom. She begins
(02:19):
filling up the corner jacuzzi definitely big enough for two.
You see where this is going. Grab some rum and vodka,
a bowl of strawberries, and a tub of whipped cream.
Jim follows behind. They and dress and get into the
chacuzi have sex talk. They somehow spend two hours in
(02:43):
the tub, but at some point the couple's four dogs
begin barking. A neighbor has complained before, and both Jim
and Sandy are conscious to not make it a big issue.
Jim jumps out of the tub, wraps a towel around
his waist and brings the dogs in. Sandy stays in
(03:04):
a little bit longer, lingering in the now lukewarm water,
but when Jim doesn't come back, she gets out the
jacuzzi jets. Still worrying. She puts on some underwear, a
red nightgown, black robe, and fluffy socks, then sits on
an ornate brown satin chair with curling white vines and
(03:29):
begins lotioning her legs. But after that, according to Sandy,
the world goes black. Around sixteen hours later, on December
(03:50):
twenty third, Sandy and Jim's family are gathered outside their house,
having just discovered his dead body and found Sandy tied
up and shut in a closet. They had come over
for dinner, but instead they now find themselves being interviewed
by the police, who were trying to piece together what's happened.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
Where was your aunt located at?
Speaker 3 (04:14):
I saw her in the restaurroom.
Speaker 2 (04:17):
Which restaurant the.
Speaker 3 (04:18):
Master bedroom, there's a restaurroom in there. How much of
her did you see? Her face? She looked very pale,
and she was crying a lot, and it looked like
she was going to pass out when she saw my uncle.
(04:38):
I went to a Garrea water.
Speaker 4 (04:42):
And are you close with Jamie? Yeah, here's your ancle
And what do you know about his wife, Sandra Sandy?
Speaker 3 (04:51):
Honestly, no, I talked more to my uncle.
Speaker 2 (04:57):
What kind of person is she that you know of.
Speaker 3 (05:00):
She's a nice person.
Speaker 5 (05:01):
She's always outgoing, always eating out with my mom and.
Speaker 3 (05:04):
My uncle's my other uncle's ex wife.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
Let me ask you this.
Speaker 4 (05:08):
You were sitting in that patrol car up there when
we brought her out there and photographed her, and she's
on a cane.
Speaker 2 (05:16):
You ever see her walk with a came before.
Speaker 3 (05:17):
I've never seen her on a came before.
Speaker 2 (05:18):
Now I hadn't. The last time you saw her, she walked.
Speaker 3 (05:20):
Okay, Yes, she was fine. She came to my house December.
I believe it was December eighth or December ninth. It
was on a Sunday.
Speaker 4 (05:28):
We're trying to figure out what happened. Any problems between
the two of them lately that you know of.
Speaker 3 (05:34):
No, they always look like a happy couple of them
to me.
Speaker 1 (05:37):
They ask similar questions to the rest of the family.
Speaker 4 (05:41):
You know, have you heard your other family members that
are related to them?
Speaker 2 (05:44):
Have you heard them talk about any problems between them. No, no,
no problem at all. Everything was good, everything else. Did
you understand something's happened here? Yeah, I do understand.
Speaker 4 (05:53):
And that's a total shock to you. It's a complete
sort You don't suspect.
Speaker 2 (05:57):
Anything that happening, or you don't have any ideas of
your own A.
Speaker 4 (06:00):
No, honey, I don't even know if I don't know
if somebody broke in the house, or you know, I
have no clue.
Speaker 2 (06:06):
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (06:07):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (06:12):
I'm Maggie Robinson, cats And from BBC Studios and iHeart Podcasts.
This is Hands Tied, Episode two, the interview. It's now
(06:32):
nine two pm and Sandy Malgar finds herself in a
small white room in Harris County Police Station, Texas. She's
hunched over a purple chair with her head buried in
her hands, her long blonde hair covering her face. She's
still wearing the thin black robe, those fluffy socks, no shoes,
(06:54):
but she's managed to change into a pair of jeans.
Sandy has declined going to the hospital and getting checked out,
but agrees to an interview with the police. As the
door creaks open, Sandy sits up, lifting her face and
tucking her hair behind her ears. The dark circles around
(07:14):
her eyes stand out against her waxy, pale skin. A
wooden cane is hooked over the arm of her chair.
Two stocky detectives enter, wearing almost matching outfits, dark kaki chinos,
with one in a white shirt the other in a
soft baby blue. One of the cops places two small
(07:37):
cups on the square table next to Sandy. The room
is cramped, so they have to do an awkward side
step as they take their seats on either side of her.
Speaker 6 (07:47):
Take a picture of titles.
Speaker 1 (07:53):
That's Sandy. Her voice soft and weak. She points to
her feet, telling the detectives that they didn't take a
picture of her ankles. They were tied, as well as
her hands. The detectives assure her that they'll get to
that in a second.
Speaker 7 (08:11):
I need to do a statement from you, okay, that's
why we're here, and I will record in an old
statement and give some questions from your answer me.
Speaker 1 (08:20):
That's Detective Ruben Shawn Carousel, but everyone calls him Sean.
He's leading the murder investigation.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
Case.
Speaker 7 (08:29):
Number one two one seven six two sixty nine is Sunday,
December twenty third, twenty twelve. This is Sean Caronel Harris
kind of shafs off with homicide sixty Henry forty two.
Speaker 1 (08:39):
He's bald, middle aged, A bit what I expect when
I hear both the words Texas and cop I can
imagine he'd be comfortable grilling both meats and witnesses also
with me.
Speaker 8 (08:51):
It's Sargeant, do say.
Speaker 1 (08:53):
Sergeant James Toussay is seated directly on Sandy's right. He's
also in his middle age, with a similar texas a Saqua.
Speaker 8 (09:01):
Stargew saying, to identify yourself.
Speaker 9 (09:02):
I'm sixty Henry thirty nine.
Speaker 1 (09:04):
Okay, he's lucky to even be in the room. Just
two years ago, he was gored by a bull named
Peanut and survived, leaving him with scars and the ultimate
bar story. The two detectives go way back their childhood friends,
and both have come straight from the crime scene to
(09:24):
the Harris County Sheriff's office.
Speaker 8 (09:26):
Okay, ma'am, can you identify yourself for me?
Speaker 1 (09:30):
As the only survivor and a potential witness to her
husband's murder, the detectives need as much detail as they
can get from Sandy, and as quickly as possible.
Speaker 10 (09:40):
We'll start from the morning.
Speaker 9 (09:41):
When you woke up today?
Speaker 6 (09:43):
Where are you at?
Speaker 1 (09:44):
Yes, in my closet, Sandy's hard to hear, she says,
in my closet this morning?
Speaker 8 (09:55):
Yes, Okay, what about yesterday?
Speaker 9 (09:57):
Let's start yesterday?
Speaker 6 (10:00):
Yesterday Saturday.
Speaker 7 (10:04):
Uh.
Speaker 6 (10:05):
We went up to.
Speaker 8 (10:06):
Eat at.
Speaker 6 (10:09):
Mexican restaurant. I think it was the products the roles were.
Speaker 8 (10:19):
Yeah, what time was that?
Speaker 4 (10:21):
I was?
Speaker 6 (10:22):
Who was whucos? Whokos? Uh? I'm listening about eight. I mean,
I'm just guessing. I don't know.
Speaker 4 (10:33):
M h.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
Sandy sounds a little sketchy. She's slow to speak, vague
and unsure of details. But I can imagine she must
be exhausted and traumatized. Maybe no wonder she can't remember
certain things.
Speaker 9 (10:48):
While what time did you get home?
Speaker 6 (10:52):
Probably midnight? Okay, I'm just guessing that I don't know.
Speaker 9 (11:00):
And when you got home? What did y'all do?
Speaker 6 (11:05):
We made some drinks, We gotten a ninjakuti.
Speaker 1 (11:08):
Where they had sex and talked.
Speaker 9 (11:11):
Man, what were y'all talking about?
Speaker 6 (11:14):
My daughter?
Speaker 1 (11:15):
That's their daughter, Liz his job.
Speaker 11 (11:19):
Oh, here's gonna be turned.
Speaker 6 (11:29):
And couldn't come stop.
Speaker 1 (11:35):
Her hand lightly rests on her face for a second,
as her voice catches, particularly the memory almost too much
to bear. Jim was going to retire next year, they
were going to travel. I go back and forward over
the interview, trying to figure out what the cops are
thinking and land on the moment. They zero in on
(11:57):
the events leading up to Jim's murderfly focusing on the
moment Jim got out of the chacuzzie to check on
their four barking dogs.
Speaker 4 (12:06):
So the time when he got out to go check
on the dogs, to go move the dog?
Speaker 6 (12:12):
What time was that, when I say one or two
in the morning.
Speaker 4 (12:17):
And when he did that, what kind of noises did
you hear?
Speaker 6 (12:23):
And I think the jacuzzie was still running even when
I got out. The jacuzzie was running.
Speaker 4 (12:29):
Racze was making noise is pretty loud, and you couldn't hear.
Speaker 9 (12:33):
Anything over that.
Speaker 6 (12:35):
I didn't hear anything, hear anybody scream no.
Speaker 9 (12:38):
But you could hear the dogs bark, yeah, because they were.
Speaker 6 (12:41):
Right outside our window.
Speaker 1 (12:43):
Sandy says Jim was taking a while with the dogs,
so she got out of the chacuzzie and went to
her closet to get dressed.
Speaker 12 (12:49):
Several hours later, I woke up and realized I was
tied up and tried to flip over, and then I
kind of got stuck where I was for the rest
of the time.
Speaker 6 (13:04):
That's all I remember. I mean, I would tell you
more if I remember.
Speaker 4 (13:09):
Why, I just don't.
Speaker 9 (13:12):
Do you have pain?
Speaker 6 (13:13):
Do I have pain? If I have pain in my head?
Speaker 1 (13:17):
Yeah, She touches the left side of her head, like,
what like I got hit.
Speaker 6 (13:22):
On the head. I don't know if I fell or
was pushed or what, but just like all alongside this side.
Speaker 12 (13:34):
And then I remember oke up and I thought I
had had seizure because my muscles hurt in my head
was just hurting or bad and usually.
Speaker 6 (13:48):
That you have been having trouble with controlling my seizure.
Speaker 1 (13:52):
So Sandy has a laundry list of health issues, something
she says she's been struggling with even more in recent months.
Alongside the seizures, Sandy has had both her hips replaced,
and she also suffers from lupus, which, for whatever reason,
she doesn't disclose to the cops. If you don't know,
(14:12):
lupas is a really serious autoimmune disease that causes extreme
fatigue and joint and muscle pain. Another possible reason why
She's foggy, not making sense, can't remember details. She's not well,
but the cops aren't sure.
Speaker 6 (14:29):
I hurt all over and my head hurts.
Speaker 9 (14:31):
How often do you have seizures like that?
Speaker 6 (14:35):
I've been getting a more, lady, I'm not able to
drive anymore.
Speaker 9 (14:38):
How frequent.
Speaker 6 (14:43):
This once a month? Maybe the auras? I get them
all the time?
Speaker 9 (14:47):
Do you take medication for that?
Speaker 12 (14:49):
Okay?
Speaker 9 (14:50):
And what was the last time he had one of
those before today?
Speaker 6 (14:59):
About them?
Speaker 8 (15:00):
Togo at home?
Speaker 9 (15:03):
And what happens when you have those seizures? What's the symptoms? Well,
how do you feel when you have those?
Speaker 8 (15:10):
Oh?
Speaker 12 (15:11):
I have rash byds that tell me that I'm going
to have one, and it's like I'm very forgetful, more
than usual.
Speaker 9 (15:22):
Did you have one of those today?
Speaker 2 (15:23):
Yeah?
Speaker 6 (15:23):
I've been having it one week actually all month?
Speaker 9 (15:27):
So have you been forgetting things all month?
Speaker 8 (15:29):
Mm?
Speaker 6 (15:30):
Hmm? And right after sometimes I can't even tell you
my name?
Speaker 9 (15:34):
Okay, And let me ask you this, And I asked
you before. You didn't answer my question.
Speaker 10 (15:40):
Why are we here?
Speaker 9 (15:42):
Do you know what has happened today?
Speaker 8 (15:46):
My husband was murdered how.
Speaker 6 (15:51):
I don't know. I don't think he was shot.
Speaker 9 (15:56):
What do you under what do you understand has happened? Yeah?
Told you that he was part I saw him, he did.
Speaker 12 (16:04):
Yes, When in tied me, I heard hysterical screaming and
I ran over there and I.
Speaker 6 (16:11):
Checked this post to see if there's anything we could do.
Speaker 9 (16:15):
Yeah, I saw him. Okay, I didn't know that.
Speaker 6 (16:21):
I saw him.
Speaker 1 (16:24):
As Sandy's voice breaks, she puts one hand across her forehead,
pushing up her blonde Bang's eyes cast downwards.
Speaker 9 (16:32):
And he touched him, touched his wrist.
Speaker 6 (16:36):
I guess she isn't it?
Speaker 3 (16:38):
Okay?
Speaker 12 (16:40):
It's freezing cold, and I shouldn't have touched him, and
I covered him.
Speaker 6 (16:47):
And I should have done that.
Speaker 2 (16:49):
What'd you go wrong with?
Speaker 1 (16:51):
You know?
Speaker 6 (16:51):
Something that was laying next to.
Speaker 11 (16:52):
The jacket, Because Jack, he was very good.
Speaker 6 (17:04):
It's really good care of me.
Speaker 1 (17:15):
Sandy's sobbing, head down on her knees, her hair falling forward.
Speaker 10 (17:26):
Until I got it.
Speaker 1 (17:30):
I've got to tell my daughter, she says between her.
Speaker 5 (17:33):
Sobs, Liz thousands of miles away, having no idea what
her mom is going through in this moment, Sandra.
Speaker 7 (17:47):
Part of our job is we work hundreds and hundreds
of mrder Okay, and sometimes we were cold bloody killers.
They just don't want to street that would just kill
somebody for nothing.
Speaker 8 (18:03):
Okay.
Speaker 7 (18:04):
Then sometimes were murders that they're an argument and something happens. Okay,
there's two different types of people. Do understand, because if
you're arguing with somebody and you lose it in your
temper and the arguments what happened.
Speaker 9 (18:24):
That's not what happened.
Speaker 12 (18:25):
And I think I'm gonna stop talking because I think
I'm gonna need a lawyer because I know how this works.
Speaker 9 (18:35):
Let me ask you something. It's all procedure for us
to talk to you.
Speaker 4 (18:40):
Okay, we want to find out the answer to this.
Speaker 9 (18:46):
As bad as you do. Okay, we do, we really do.
Speaker 4 (18:51):
And we're not trying to cause you trouble, will cause
you pain, but we have a procedure.
Speaker 9 (18:58):
Are you familiar with a polygraph exam?
Speaker 1 (19:00):
M hmm, a lie detector test?
Speaker 9 (19:02):
You should be willing to take a polygraphic examp?
Speaker 2 (19:05):
He's probably her.
Speaker 1 (19:07):
No, not now, she says.
Speaker 6 (19:10):
I'm just the nervous wreck right now.
Speaker 1 (19:28):
It's just after midnight now, and Sandy Melgar walks back
into the cramped interview room, leaning heavily on a cane.
She sits down and wrests the wooden stick against her chair.
Sergeant Dussea comes in and takes the seat nearest her.
Speaker 9 (19:45):
How are you feeling, I've trying to drown the air down.
This building keeps us constant of them. Sure you know.
Speaker 4 (19:57):
I'll be up rue honest with you, There's some things
don't add up in your story and what you're telling me.
Speaker 9 (20:04):
Okay, maybe you could help me understand it.
Speaker 4 (20:08):
Now. You said you've been married thirty two years and
you were supposed to celebrate that on.
Speaker 1 (20:12):
The twelfth December twelfth is their actual anniversary, but they
were celebrating on the twenty second.
Speaker 9 (20:19):
Well, what reason was it that you did?
Speaker 6 (20:22):
I was it feeling?
Speaker 12 (20:23):
Well?
Speaker 10 (20:23):
Okay, I noticed you walked with a cane? Why is that?
Speaker 6 (20:31):
I've had my hips replaced and I have a lot
of joint pain.
Speaker 4 (20:35):
How long ago did you have the hips replaced?
Speaker 6 (20:39):
My left one.
Speaker 12 (20:42):
About ten years ago or eleven, and then the right
one about five years after that.
Speaker 10 (20:50):
You've been walking with a cane ever since that? It's
just when'd you start?
Speaker 3 (20:56):
It's on and off.
Speaker 13 (20:57):
When it's colds, my joints hurt more, but late it's
been more often because so how.
Speaker 10 (21:02):
Long you think you've been walking to the cane out?
Speaker 6 (21:07):
A couple of weeks, but some when the days are warmer,
they don't really use it.
Speaker 1 (21:12):
From the detective's point of view, Sandy's poor health doesn't
rule her out as a suspect. Quite the opposite. Maybe
she's playing it up using a cane she doesn't need
to elicit sympathy.
Speaker 4 (21:26):
You know, something I want you to understand is that
we investigate something like this, Sandra.
Speaker 10 (21:33):
I want you to understand that.
Speaker 9 (21:37):
We go to all extremes. You know, we don't quit.
You're going to see a lot of me, You're going
to see a lot of my partner.
Speaker 11 (21:47):
You are.
Speaker 14 (21:48):
We're going to find out everything about you. We're going
to find out everything about your husband. We're going to
talk to everybody in your neighborhood. We're going to talk
to everybody that you're related to. We're going to learn everything.
Speaker 6 (22:04):
Because it's not me.
Speaker 4 (22:06):
It's just so important that you be honest with us.
You know, I told you it's protocol that we start close.
Speaker 15 (22:13):
To that victim that's you, Okay, And you know we
didn't just walk into this ball game yesterday, and we
can tell a whole lot of stuff.
Speaker 9 (22:24):
By the way, that when we start.
Speaker 4 (22:26):
With people, the way they react, the way they act,
you need to understand that may I always show, may
not always let that be be known to you.
Speaker 9 (22:37):
But we're no fools. You need to understand that too, okay.
Speaker 4 (22:43):
And we've been doing this long enough where there's things
we recognize.
Speaker 9 (22:49):
You got to understand that too, Okay.
Speaker 10 (22:54):
We talk to people all the time. I never said
you did. I did ask you to take a polygraph test?
Speaker 6 (23:03):
Yes, I did, and not shaking and freezing and.
Speaker 4 (23:07):
What's your what's your explanation though, what's your excuse for
not taking one?
Speaker 9 (23:13):
It's not holding water, Sandra. I'm just gonna be honest
with you. It's not.
Speaker 6 (23:17):
I just don't want to take it. And then it's
used against me.
Speaker 1 (23:20):
Now the gloves are off.
Speaker 10 (23:23):
Are you covering something else? Why would you take a polygraph?
Speaker 6 (23:27):
Because I'm so stress right now I can't even think straight.
Speaker 9 (23:32):
It's not a good reason.
Speaker 13 (23:33):
Well, I just don't want to use against me, that's
all I'll take it, But not just use against you
because I'm stressed, and I mean I just.
Speaker 10 (23:49):
Beyond beyond that.
Speaker 8 (23:50):
Does your husband ever hit you?
Speaker 4 (23:52):
No?
Speaker 15 (23:53):
No, piscopal No, never did your husband tell you something
that that made you black out.
Speaker 10 (24:00):
No, doesn't work that way.
Speaker 7 (24:03):
As your would your husband have a girlfriend signer, they'd
be a jealous boyfriend, would coat.
Speaker 8 (24:08):
Yeah, as your husband of cosey, he was going to
leave you.
Speaker 6 (24:12):
Yeah, they were taking plans. We were making plans. Who
would leave me?
Speaker 8 (24:17):
Do you think he's ever caught one of his family
members that he was going to leave you?
Speaker 1 (24:22):
To Sandy, that couldn't be further from the truth. They
were planning to go traveling together. They were sitting in
the jacuzzie talking about their plans for retirement, the trips
they were going to take.
Speaker 2 (24:34):
You know what I saw there.
Speaker 4 (24:38):
When I saw your husband's body, that's a pretty violent attack. Okay,
And if he encountered something that.
Speaker 9 (24:48):
Would do what we see there, you're going to hear it.
Speaker 10 (24:54):
You're going to hear something.
Speaker 1 (24:56):
And Sandy reiterates that she left the jets running when
she went to get dressed. Well, Jim brought in the dogs.
The jets, according to Sandy, are why she couldn't hear
Jim's screen.
Speaker 4 (25:10):
I don't care if you've got a tank cranked up
in that bathroom with you, you're gonna hear something. When
somebody encounters somebody that's stabashed, somebody that violently, that many
times you're gonna hear that.
Speaker 6 (25:27):
You didn't hear anything. I wish I had heard something.
Speaker 9 (25:30):
I didn't.
Speaker 2 (25:33):
See that.
Speaker 4 (25:33):
What we're seeing there, the physical evidence that's there, and
what you're telling us.
Speaker 9 (25:39):
Just not adding up. Sandra.
Speaker 4 (25:41):
I'm not wanting to call you a liar, but what
I'm saying to hear something. You're the only person that
was in that house.
Speaker 2 (25:49):
You know we're here, we're going to try to.
Speaker 4 (25:51):
Get to the bottom of this, but you're the only
one that was in that house. Well, it is ironic
that you could you black out exact time when he's
getting down and bludgeon I don't have an answer for
multiple times like that, dying screaming for help.
Speaker 10 (26:13):
Oh my gosh, just I don't know. I don't understand that.
That's not right.
Speaker 8 (26:17):
I mean, it's a lot of blood that he lost.
Speaker 9 (26:20):
Could you hear him, No, I couldn't hear him.
Speaker 8 (26:24):
Could you hear me all for help?
Speaker 6 (26:26):
No?
Speaker 8 (26:27):
Could you hear screaming? I didn't hear it.
Speaker 2 (26:31):
I mean he was in pain.
Speaker 9 (26:32):
We know that.
Speaker 8 (26:35):
He suffered a lot.
Speaker 9 (26:39):
I need you to help me.
Speaker 10 (26:41):
I need you to help me.
Speaker 8 (26:44):
I need you to help me on this.
Speaker 1 (26:47):
It's as though Detective Carousel is channeling Jim in his
final moments.
Speaker 8 (26:53):
Can you help me?
Speaker 2 (26:54):
I need you to help me.
Speaker 8 (26:58):
Andrew, can you help me?
Speaker 6 (27:00):
I didn't hear anything.
Speaker 8 (27:02):
Can you help me? I need you to help me.
Speaker 6 (27:08):
Did you hear anything?
Speaker 2 (27:10):
I need help?
Speaker 8 (27:13):
Please help me?
Speaker 7 (27:16):
Screaming after screaming, after screaming, even pain, I need help.
Speaker 1 (27:21):
The bizarre incantation goes on and on.
Speaker 8 (27:25):
Help me, help me, help me. Cousin's a nice guy.
He went through a lot of pain.
Speaker 1 (27:36):
Help me until Sandy's finally had enough.
Speaker 6 (27:40):
I didn't hear anything already. I need help.
Speaker 8 (27:48):
I need help.
Speaker 2 (27:52):
Help me.
Speaker 6 (27:53):
That's it, that's it.
Speaker 3 (27:55):
I need a lawyer.
Speaker 6 (27:56):
I'm not talking anymore because you guys are just trying
to torture me.
Speaker 7 (28:00):
Here.
Speaker 9 (28:00):
I'm not torturing you.
Speaker 8 (28:02):
I'm asking for help.
Speaker 1 (28:04):
But they're not done yet.
Speaker 6 (28:07):
She loved your husband, yes, I love my husband.
Speaker 16 (28:11):
Yes, she wants to finally kill him. Of course, I
don't think you did. Did you stage that at your house?
Speaker 4 (28:22):
Now?
Speaker 6 (28:23):
Stage it?
Speaker 9 (28:24):
Yeah?
Speaker 10 (28:25):
Did you plan this?
Speaker 4 (28:27):
No? No?
Speaker 8 (28:28):
I did not.
Speaker 9 (28:30):
Would you tell me if you did?
Speaker 6 (28:33):
I wouln't even know where to start to stage it,
and how am I going to tie myself up like that?
And I ain't gonna be able to get out of it.
I mean, I really was trying to get out of it.
Speaker 8 (28:48):
Did you kill your husband?
Speaker 16 (28:50):
No?
Speaker 9 (28:51):
I didn't.
Speaker 1 (28:58):
It's one fourteen am on Christmas Eve, nine hours since
Sandy was found by her family, since they all learned
that Jim had been murdered. The interview's over and she's exhausted.
She's bewildered. To Sandy, she can't fathom how this nightmare
has happened. Her husband's dead and somehow she's being accused
(29:22):
for his murder.
Speaker 3 (29:25):
I'm good an emergency.
Speaker 1 (29:26):
I can stay calm.
Speaker 3 (29:27):
I know what I need to do.
Speaker 1 (29:28):
I can assess the situation. You've been listening to Hands Tied,
a new eight part true crime series from BBC Studios
and iHeart Podcasts. New episodes will be released weekly, so
(29:49):
subscribe or follow on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you
get your podcasts so you don't miss out. If you
like the show, please help us by spreading the word
or giving us a five star review. I'm Maggie Robinson
Katz and the producer is Maggie Latham. Sound design in
mix is by Tom Brignall. Our script consultant is Emma
(30:13):
Weatherall production support is from Dan Martini, Elena Boutang and
Mabel Finnegan Wright, and our production executive is Laura Jordan Raul.
The series was developed by Anya Saunders and Emma Shaw
at iHeart. The managing Executive producer is Christina Everett, and
for BBC Studios, the executive producer is Joe Kent,
BBC Sudas. Hey, Hi'm Maggie. Just a quick heads up
before we start. The series does contain some descriptions of
violence and deals with adult themes. Jim and Sandy are
(00:21):
at their favorite restaurant, Los Cucos, their most love dishes
spread across the table. There's a fish cancun for Sandy
and agorace for Jim, which is something like a thick
corn tortilla topped with beans, meat and salsa. Jim's had
his hair freshly cut for the occasion, and the pictures
(00:45):
I've seen of him, he looks kind of like your
classic dad. He's got a buttoned down, collared shirt tucked
into khakis, his BlackBerry clip to his belt. Jim's petite
at only five seven, with a slim frame and wire glasses.
Sandy's just a bit shorter, with shoulder length blonde hair
(01:07):
and tight, square framed glasses. That night, she's of vision
and brown with brown slacks, sweater and boots. I can
imagine her laughing as she leans in her hand cupped
around a pina colada. It's December twenty second, twenty twelve,
and Jim and Sandy are celebrating their thirty second wedding anniversary,
(01:31):
an amazing achievement for any relationship. They finish their meal,
pay the bill, and head out into the cool Texas night,
stopping at CBS to pick up some mixers for drinks,
sprite and coke. They make their way back home, leaving
the suburban sprawl of shopping centers and chain restaurants to
(01:56):
the tree lined street of their cult de sac home
and pull into their garage. Sandy enters first, while Jim
follows behind, his hands full with the leftovers from dinner
and the drinks they purchased at CBS. Sandy heads to
the master bedroom and into the adjoining bathroom. She begins
(02:19):
filling up the corner jacuzzi definitely big enough for two.
You see where this is going. Grab some rum and vodka,
a bowl of strawberries, and a tub of whipped cream.
Jim follows behind. They and dress and get into the
chacuzi have sex talk. They somehow spend two hours in
(02:43):
the tub, but at some point the couple's four dogs
begin barking. A neighbor has complained before, and both Jim
and Sandy are conscious to not make it a big issue.
Jim jumps out of the tub, wraps a towel around
his waist and brings the dogs in. Sandy stays in
(03:04):
a little bit longer, lingering in the now lukewarm water,
but when Jim doesn't come back, she gets out the
jacuzzi jets. Still worrying. She puts on some underwear, a
red nightgown, black robe, and fluffy socks, then sits on
an ornate brown satin chair with curling white vines and
(03:29):
begins lotioning her legs. But after that, according to Sandy,
the world goes black. Around sixteen hours later, on December
(03:50):
twenty third, Sandy and Jim's family are gathered outside their house,
having just discovered his dead body and found Sandy tied
up and shut in a closet. They had come over
for dinner, but instead they now find themselves being interviewed
by the police, who were trying to piece together what's happened.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
Where was your aunt located at?
Speaker 3 (04:14):
I saw her in the restaurroom.
Speaker 2 (04:17):
Which restaurant the.
Speaker 3 (04:18):
Master bedroom, there's a restaurroom in there. How much of
her did you see? Her face? She looked very pale,
and she was crying a lot, and it looked like
she was going to pass out when she saw my uncle.
(04:38):
I went to a Garrea water.
Speaker 4 (04:42):
And are you close with Jamie? Yeah, here's your ancle
And what do you know about his wife, Sandra Sandy?
Speaker 3 (04:51):
Honestly, no, I talked more to my uncle.
Speaker 2 (04:57):
What kind of person is she that you know of.
Speaker 3 (05:00):
She's a nice person.
Speaker 5 (05:01):
She's always outgoing, always eating out with my mom and.
Speaker 3 (05:04):
My uncle's my other uncle's ex wife.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
Let me ask you this.
Speaker 4 (05:08):
You were sitting in that patrol car up there when
we brought her out there and photographed her, and she's
on a cane.
Speaker 2 (05:16):
You ever see her walk with a came before.
Speaker 3 (05:17):
I've never seen her on a came before.
Speaker 2 (05:18):
Now I hadn't. The last time you saw her, she walked.
Speaker 3 (05:20):
Okay, Yes, she was fine. She came to my house December.
I believe it was December eighth or December ninth. It
was on a Sunday.
Speaker 4 (05:28):
We're trying to figure out what happened. Any problems between
the two of them lately that you know of.
Speaker 3 (05:34):
No, they always look like a happy couple of them
to me.
Speaker 1 (05:37):
They ask similar questions to the rest of the family.
Speaker 4 (05:41):
You know, have you heard your other family members that
are related to them?
Speaker 2 (05:44):
Have you heard them talk about any problems between them. No, no,
no problem at all. Everything was good, everything else. Did
you understand something's happened here? Yeah, I do understand.
Speaker 4 (05:53):
And that's a total shock to you. It's a complete
sort You don't suspect.
Speaker 2 (05:57):
Anything that happening, or you don't have any ideas of
your own A.
Speaker 4 (06:00):
No, honey, I don't even know if I don't know
if somebody broke in the house, or you know, I
have no clue.
Speaker 2 (06:06):
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (06:07):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (06:12):
I'm Maggie Robinson, cats And from BBC Studios and iHeart Podcasts.
This is Hands Tied, Episode two, the interview. It's now
(06:32):
nine two pm and Sandy Malgar finds herself in a
small white room in Harris County Police Station, Texas. She's
hunched over a purple chair with her head buried in
her hands, her long blonde hair covering her face. She's
still wearing the thin black robe, those fluffy socks, no shoes,
(06:54):
but she's managed to change into a pair of jeans.
Sandy has declined going to the hospital and getting checked out,
but agrees to an interview with the police. As the
door creaks open, Sandy sits up, lifting her face and
tucking her hair behind her ears. The dark circles around
(07:14):
her eyes stand out against her waxy, pale skin. A
wooden cane is hooked over the arm of her chair.
Two stocky detectives enter, wearing almost matching outfits, dark kaki chinos,
with one in a white shirt the other in a
soft baby blue. One of the cops places two small
(07:37):
cups on the square table next to Sandy. The room
is cramped, so they have to do an awkward side
step as they take their seats on either side of her.
Speaker 6 (07:47):
Take a picture of titles.
Speaker 1 (07:53):
That's Sandy. Her voice soft and weak. She points to
her feet, telling the detectives that they didn't take a
picture of her ankles. They were tied, as well as
her hands. The detectives assure her that they'll get to
that in a second.
Speaker 7 (08:11):
I need to do a statement from you, okay, that's
why we're here, and I will record in an old
statement and give some questions from your answer me.
Speaker 1 (08:20):
That's Detective Ruben Shawn Carousel, but everyone calls him Sean.
He's leading the murder investigation.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
Case.
Speaker 7 (08:29):
Number one two one seven six two sixty nine is Sunday,
December twenty third, twenty twelve. This is Sean Caronel Harris
kind of shafs off with homicide sixty Henry forty two.
Speaker 1 (08:39):
He's bald, middle aged, A bit what I expect when
I hear both the words Texas and cop I can
imagine he'd be comfortable grilling both meats and witnesses also
with me.
Speaker 8 (08:51):
It's Sargeant, do say.
Speaker 1 (08:53):
Sergeant James Toussay is seated directly on Sandy's right. He's
also in his middle age, with a similar texas a Saqua.
Speaker 8 (09:01):
Stargew saying, to identify yourself.
Speaker 9 (09:02):
I'm sixty Henry thirty nine.
Speaker 1 (09:04):
Okay, he's lucky to even be in the room. Just
two years ago, he was gored by a bull named
Peanut and survived, leaving him with scars and the ultimate
bar story. The two detectives go way back their childhood friends,
and both have come straight from the crime scene to
(09:24):
the Harris County Sheriff's office.
Speaker 8 (09:26):
Okay, ma'am, can you identify yourself for me?
Speaker 1 (09:30):
As the only survivor and a potential witness to her
husband's murder, the detectives need as much detail as they
can get from Sandy, and as quickly as possible.
Speaker 10 (09:40):
We'll start from the morning.
Speaker 9 (09:41):
When you woke up today?
Speaker 6 (09:43):
Where are you at?
Speaker 1 (09:44):
Yes, in my closet, Sandy's hard to hear, she says,
in my closet this morning?
Speaker 8 (09:55):
Yes, Okay, what about yesterday?
Speaker 9 (09:57):
Let's start yesterday?
Speaker 6 (10:00):
Yesterday Saturday.
Speaker 7 (10:04):
Uh.
Speaker 6 (10:05):
We went up to.
Speaker 8 (10:06):
Eat at.
Speaker 6 (10:09):
Mexican restaurant. I think it was the products the roles were.
Speaker 8 (10:19):
Yeah, what time was that?
Speaker 4 (10:21):
I was?
Speaker 6 (10:22):
Who was whucos? Whokos? Uh? I'm listening about eight. I mean,
I'm just guessing. I don't know.
Speaker 4 (10:33):
M h.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
Sandy sounds a little sketchy. She's slow to speak, vague
and unsure of details. But I can imagine she must
be exhausted and traumatized. Maybe no wonder she can't remember
certain things.
Speaker 9 (10:48):
While what time did you get home?
Speaker 6 (10:52):
Probably midnight? Okay, I'm just guessing that I don't know.
Speaker 9 (11:00):
And when you got home? What did y'all do?
Speaker 6 (11:05):
We made some drinks, We gotten a ninjakuti.
Speaker 1 (11:08):
Where they had sex and talked.
Speaker 9 (11:11):
Man, what were y'all talking about?
Speaker 6 (11:14):
My daughter?
Speaker 1 (11:15):
That's their daughter, Liz his job.
Speaker 11 (11:19):
Oh, here's gonna be turned.
Speaker 6 (11:29):
And couldn't come stop.
Speaker 1 (11:35):
Her hand lightly rests on her face for a second,
as her voice catches, particularly the memory almost too much
to bear. Jim was going to retire next year, they
were going to travel. I go back and forward over
the interview, trying to figure out what the cops are
thinking and land on the moment. They zero in on
(11:57):
the events leading up to Jim's murderfly focusing on the
moment Jim got out of the chacuzzie to check on
their four barking dogs.
Speaker 4 (12:06):
So the time when he got out to go check
on the dogs, to go move the dog?
Speaker 6 (12:12):
What time was that, when I say one or two
in the morning.
Speaker 4 (12:17):
And when he did that, what kind of noises did
you hear?
Speaker 6 (12:23):
And I think the jacuzzie was still running even when
I got out. The jacuzzie was running.
Speaker 4 (12:29):
Racze was making noise is pretty loud, and you couldn't hear.
Speaker 9 (12:33):
Anything over that.
Speaker 6 (12:35):
I didn't hear anything, hear anybody scream no.
Speaker 9 (12:38):
But you could hear the dogs bark, yeah, because they were.
Speaker 6 (12:41):
Right outside our window.
Speaker 1 (12:43):
Sandy says Jim was taking a while with the dogs,
so she got out of the chacuzzie and went to
her closet to get dressed.
Speaker 12 (12:49):
Several hours later, I woke up and realized I was
tied up and tried to flip over, and then I
kind of got stuck where I was for the rest
of the time.
Speaker 6 (13:04):
That's all I remember. I mean, I would tell you
more if I remember.
Speaker 4 (13:09):
Why, I just don't.
Speaker 9 (13:12):
Do you have pain?
Speaker 6 (13:13):
Do I have pain? If I have pain in my head?
Speaker 1 (13:17):
Yeah, She touches the left side of her head, like,
what like I got hit.
Speaker 6 (13:22):
On the head. I don't know if I fell or
was pushed or what, but just like all alongside this side.
Speaker 12 (13:34):
And then I remember oke up and I thought I
had had seizure because my muscles hurt in my head
was just hurting or bad and usually.
Speaker 6 (13:48):
That you have been having trouble with controlling my seizure.
Speaker 1 (13:52):
So Sandy has a laundry list of health issues, something
she says she's been struggling with even more in recent months.
Alongside the seizures, Sandy has had both her hips replaced,
and she also suffers from lupus, which, for whatever reason,
she doesn't disclose to the cops. If you don't know,
(14:12):
lupas is a really serious autoimmune disease that causes extreme
fatigue and joint and muscle pain. Another possible reason why
She's foggy, not making sense, can't remember details. She's not well,
but the cops aren't sure.
Speaker 6 (14:29):
I hurt all over and my head hurts.
Speaker 9 (14:31):
How often do you have seizures like that?
Speaker 6 (14:35):
I've been getting a more, lady, I'm not able to
drive anymore.
Speaker 9 (14:38):
How frequent.
Speaker 6 (14:43):
This once a month? Maybe the auras? I get them
all the time?
Speaker 9 (14:47):
Do you take medication for that?
Speaker 12 (14:49):
Okay?
Speaker 9 (14:50):
And what was the last time he had one of
those before today?
Speaker 6 (14:59):
About them?
Speaker 8 (15:00):
Togo at home?
Speaker 9 (15:03):
And what happens when you have those seizures? What's the symptoms? Well,
how do you feel when you have those?
Speaker 8 (15:10):
Oh?
Speaker 12 (15:11):
I have rash byds that tell me that I'm going
to have one, and it's like I'm very forgetful, more
than usual.
Speaker 9 (15:22):
Did you have one of those today?
Speaker 2 (15:23):
Yeah?
Speaker 6 (15:23):
I've been having it one week actually all month?
Speaker 9 (15:27):
So have you been forgetting things all month?
Speaker 8 (15:29):
Mm?
Speaker 6 (15:30):
Hmm? And right after sometimes I can't even tell you
my name?
Speaker 9 (15:34):
Okay, And let me ask you this, And I asked
you before. You didn't answer my question.
Speaker 10 (15:40):
Why are we here?
Speaker 9 (15:42):
Do you know what has happened today?
Speaker 8 (15:46):
My husband was murdered how.
Speaker 6 (15:51):
I don't know. I don't think he was shot.
Speaker 9 (15:56):
What do you under what do you understand has happened? Yeah?
Told you that he was part I saw him, he did.
Speaker 12 (16:04):
Yes, When in tied me, I heard hysterical screaming and
I ran over there and I.
Speaker 6 (16:11):
Checked this post to see if there's anything we could do.
Speaker 9 (16:15):
Yeah, I saw him. Okay, I didn't know that.
Speaker 6 (16:21):
I saw him.
Speaker 1 (16:24):
As Sandy's voice breaks, she puts one hand across her forehead,
pushing up her blonde Bang's eyes cast downwards.
Speaker 9 (16:32):
And he touched him, touched his wrist.
Speaker 6 (16:36):
I guess she isn't it?
Speaker 3 (16:38):
Okay?
Speaker 12 (16:40):
It's freezing cold, and I shouldn't have touched him, and
I covered him.
Speaker 6 (16:47):
And I should have done that.
Speaker 2 (16:49):
What'd you go wrong with?
Speaker 1 (16:51):
You know?
Speaker 6 (16:51):
Something that was laying next to.
Speaker 11 (16:52):
The jacket, Because Jack, he was very good.
Speaker 6 (17:04):
It's really good care of me.
Speaker 1 (17:15):
Sandy's sobbing, head down on her knees, her hair falling forward.
Speaker 10 (17:26):
Until I got it.
Speaker 1 (17:30):
I've got to tell my daughter, she says between her.
Speaker 5 (17:33):
Sobs, Liz thousands of miles away, having no idea what
her mom is going through in this moment, Sandra.
Speaker 7 (17:47):
Part of our job is we work hundreds and hundreds
of mrder Okay, and sometimes we were cold bloody killers.
They just don't want to street that would just kill
somebody for nothing.
Speaker 8 (18:03):
Okay.
Speaker 7 (18:04):
Then sometimes were murders that they're an argument and something happens. Okay,
there's two different types of people. Do understand, because if
you're arguing with somebody and you lose it in your
temper and the arguments what happened.
Speaker 9 (18:24):
That's not what happened.
Speaker 12 (18:25):
And I think I'm gonna stop talking because I think
I'm gonna need a lawyer because I know how this works.
Speaker 9 (18:35):
Let me ask you something. It's all procedure for us
to talk to you.
Speaker 4 (18:40):
Okay, we want to find out the answer to this.
Speaker 9 (18:46):
As bad as you do. Okay, we do, we really do.
Speaker 4 (18:51):
And we're not trying to cause you trouble, will cause
you pain, but we have a procedure.
Speaker 9 (18:58):
Are you familiar with a polygraph exam?
Speaker 1 (19:00):
M hmm, a lie detector test?
Speaker 9 (19:02):
You should be willing to take a polygraphic examp?
Speaker 2 (19:05):
He's probably her.
Speaker 1 (19:07):
No, not now, she says.
Speaker 6 (19:10):
I'm just the nervous wreck right now.
Speaker 1 (19:28):
It's just after midnight now, and Sandy Melgar walks back
into the cramped interview room, leaning heavily on a cane.
She sits down and wrests the wooden stick against her chair.
Sergeant Dussea comes in and takes the seat nearest her.
Speaker 9 (19:45):
How are you feeling, I've trying to drown the air down.
This building keeps us constant of them. Sure you know.
Speaker 4 (19:57):
I'll be up rue honest with you, There's some things
don't add up in your story and what you're telling me.
Speaker 9 (20:04):
Okay, maybe you could help me understand it.
Speaker 4 (20:08):
Now. You said you've been married thirty two years and
you were supposed to celebrate that on.
Speaker 1 (20:12):
The twelfth December twelfth is their actual anniversary, but they
were celebrating on the twenty second.
Speaker 9 (20:19):
Well, what reason was it that you did?
Speaker 6 (20:22):
I was it feeling?
Speaker 12 (20:23):
Well?
Speaker 10 (20:23):
Okay, I noticed you walked with a cane? Why is that?
Speaker 6 (20:31):
I've had my hips replaced and I have a lot
of joint pain.
Speaker 4 (20:35):
How long ago did you have the hips replaced?
Speaker 6 (20:39):
My left one.
Speaker 12 (20:42):
About ten years ago or eleven, and then the right
one about five years after that.
Speaker 10 (20:50):
You've been walking with a cane ever since that? It's
just when'd you start?
Speaker 3 (20:56):
It's on and off.
Speaker 13 (20:57):
When it's colds, my joints hurt more, but late it's
been more often because so how.
Speaker 10 (21:02):
Long you think you've been walking to the cane out?
Speaker 6 (21:07):
A couple of weeks, but some when the days are warmer,
they don't really use it.
Speaker 1 (21:12):
From the detective's point of view, Sandy's poor health doesn't
rule her out as a suspect. Quite the opposite. Maybe
she's playing it up using a cane she doesn't need
to elicit sympathy.
Speaker 4 (21:26):
You know, something I want you to understand is that
we investigate something like this, Sandra.
Speaker 10 (21:33):
I want you to understand that.
Speaker 9 (21:37):
We go to all extremes. You know, we don't quit.
You're going to see a lot of me, You're going
to see a lot of my partner.
Speaker 11 (21:47):
You are.
Speaker 14 (21:48):
We're going to find out everything about you. We're going
to find out everything about your husband. We're going to
talk to everybody in your neighborhood. We're going to talk
to everybody that you're related to. We're going to learn everything.
Speaker 6 (22:04):
Because it's not me.
Speaker 4 (22:06):
It's just so important that you be honest with us.
You know, I told you it's protocol that we start close.
Speaker 15 (22:13):
To that victim that's you, Okay, And you know we
didn't just walk into this ball game yesterday, and we
can tell a whole lot of stuff.
Speaker 9 (22:24):
By the way, that when we start.
Speaker 4 (22:26):
With people, the way they react, the way they act,
you need to understand that may I always show, may
not always let that be be known to you.
Speaker 9 (22:37):
But we're no fools. You need to understand that too, okay.
Speaker 4 (22:43):
And we've been doing this long enough where there's things
we recognize.
Speaker 9 (22:49):
You got to understand that too, Okay.
Speaker 10 (22:54):
We talk to people all the time. I never said
you did. I did ask you to take a polygraph test?
Speaker 6 (23:03):
Yes, I did, and not shaking and freezing and.
Speaker 4 (23:07):
What's your what's your explanation though, what's your excuse for
not taking one?
Speaker 9 (23:13):
It's not holding water, Sandra. I'm just gonna be honest
with you. It's not.
Speaker 6 (23:17):
I just don't want to take it. And then it's
used against me.
Speaker 1 (23:20):
Now the gloves are off.
Speaker 10 (23:23):
Are you covering something else? Why would you take a polygraph?
Speaker 6 (23:27):
Because I'm so stress right now I can't even think straight.
Speaker 9 (23:32):
It's not a good reason.
Speaker 13 (23:33):
Well, I just don't want to use against me, that's
all I'll take it, But not just use against you
because I'm stressed, and I mean I just.
Speaker 10 (23:49):
Beyond beyond that.
Speaker 8 (23:50):
Does your husband ever hit you?
Speaker 4 (23:52):
No?
Speaker 15 (23:53):
No, piscopal No, never did your husband tell you something
that that made you black out.
Speaker 10 (24:00):
No, doesn't work that way.
Speaker 7 (24:03):
As your would your husband have a girlfriend signer, they'd
be a jealous boyfriend, would coat.
Speaker 8 (24:08):
Yeah, as your husband of cosey, he was going to
leave you.
Speaker 6 (24:12):
Yeah, they were taking plans. We were making plans. Who
would leave me?
Speaker 8 (24:17):
Do you think he's ever caught one of his family
members that he was going to leave you?
Speaker 1 (24:22):
To Sandy, that couldn't be further from the truth. They
were planning to go traveling together. They were sitting in
the jacuzzie talking about their plans for retirement, the trips
they were going to take.
Speaker 2 (24:34):
You know what I saw there.
Speaker 4 (24:38):
When I saw your husband's body, that's a pretty violent attack. Okay,
And if he encountered something that.
Speaker 9 (24:48):
Would do what we see there, you're going to hear it.
Speaker 10 (24:54):
You're going to hear something.
Speaker 1 (24:56):
And Sandy reiterates that she left the jets running when
she went to get dressed. Well, Jim brought in the dogs.
The jets, according to Sandy, are why she couldn't hear
Jim's screen.
Speaker 4 (25:10):
I don't care if you've got a tank cranked up
in that bathroom with you, you're gonna hear something. When
somebody encounters somebody that's stabashed, somebody that violently, that many
times you're gonna hear that.
Speaker 6 (25:27):
You didn't hear anything. I wish I had heard something.
Speaker 9 (25:30):
I didn't.
Speaker 2 (25:33):
See that.
Speaker 4 (25:33):
What we're seeing there, the physical evidence that's there, and
what you're telling us.
Speaker 9 (25:39):
Just not adding up. Sandra.
Speaker 4 (25:41):
I'm not wanting to call you a liar, but what
I'm saying to hear something. You're the only person that
was in that house.
Speaker 2 (25:49):
You know we're here, we're going to try to.
Speaker 4 (25:51):
Get to the bottom of this, but you're the only
one that was in that house. Well, it is ironic
that you could you black out exact time when he's
getting down and bludgeon I don't have an answer for
multiple times like that, dying screaming for help.
Speaker 10 (26:13):
Oh my gosh, just I don't know. I don't understand that.
That's not right.
Speaker 8 (26:17):
I mean, it's a lot of blood that he lost.
Speaker 9 (26:20):
Could you hear him, No, I couldn't hear him.
Speaker 8 (26:24):
Could you hear me all for help?
Speaker 6 (26:26):
No?
Speaker 8 (26:27):
Could you hear screaming? I didn't hear it.
Speaker 2 (26:31):
I mean he was in pain.
Speaker 9 (26:32):
We know that.
Speaker 8 (26:35):
He suffered a lot.
Speaker 9 (26:39):
I need you to help me.
Speaker 10 (26:41):
I need you to help me.
Speaker 8 (26:44):
I need you to help me on this.
Speaker 1 (26:47):
It's as though Detective Carousel is channeling Jim in his
final moments.
Speaker 8 (26:53):
Can you help me?
Speaker 2 (26:54):
I need you to help me.
Speaker 8 (26:58):
Andrew, can you help me?
Speaker 6 (27:00):
I didn't hear anything.
Speaker 8 (27:02):
Can you help me? I need you to help me.
Speaker 6 (27:08):
Did you hear anything?
Speaker 2 (27:10):
I need help?
Speaker 8 (27:13):
Please help me?
Speaker 7 (27:16):
Screaming after screaming, after screaming, even pain, I need help.
Speaker 1 (27:21):
The bizarre incantation goes on and on.
Speaker 8 (27:25):
Help me, help me, help me. Cousin's a nice guy.
He went through a lot of pain.
Speaker 1 (27:36):
Help me until Sandy's finally had enough.
Speaker 6 (27:40):
I didn't hear anything already. I need help.
Speaker 8 (27:48):
I need help.
Speaker 2 (27:52):
Help me.
Speaker 6 (27:53):
That's it, that's it.
Speaker 3 (27:55):
I need a lawyer.
Speaker 6 (27:56):
I'm not talking anymore because you guys are just trying
to torture me.
Speaker 7 (28:00):
Here.
Speaker 9 (28:00):
I'm not torturing you.
Speaker 8 (28:02):
I'm asking for help.
Speaker 1 (28:04):
But they're not done yet.
Speaker 6 (28:07):
She loved your husband, yes, I love my husband.
Speaker 16 (28:11):
Yes, she wants to finally kill him. Of course, I
don't think you did. Did you stage that at your house?
Speaker 4 (28:22):
Now?
Speaker 6 (28:23):
Stage it?
Speaker 9 (28:24):
Yeah?
Speaker 10 (28:25):
Did you plan this?
Speaker 4 (28:27):
No? No?
Speaker 8 (28:28):
I did not.
Speaker 9 (28:30):
Would you tell me if you did?
Speaker 6 (28:33):
I wouln't even know where to start to stage it,
and how am I going to tie myself up like that?
And I ain't gonna be able to get out of it.
I mean, I really was trying to get out of it.
Speaker 8 (28:48):
Did you kill your husband?
Speaker 16 (28:50):
No?
Speaker 9 (28:51):
I didn't.
Speaker 1 (28:58):
It's one fourteen am on Christmas Eve, nine hours since
Sandy was found by her family, since they all learned
that Jim had been murdered. The interview's over and she's exhausted.
She's bewildered. To Sandy, she can't fathom how this nightmare
has happened. Her husband's dead and somehow she's being accused
(29:22):
for his murder.
Speaker 3 (29:25):
I'm good an emergency.
Speaker 1 (29:26):
I can stay calm.
Speaker 3 (29:27):
I know what I need to do.
Speaker 1 (29:28):
I can assess the situation. You've been listening to Hands Tied,
a new eight part true crime series from BBC Studios
and iHeart Podcasts. New episodes will be released weekly, so
(29:49):
subscribe or follow on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you
get your podcasts so you don't miss out. If you
like the show, please help us by spreading the word
or giving us a five star review. I'm Maggie Robinson
Katz and the producer is Maggie Latham. Sound design in
mix is by Tom Brignall. Our script consultant is Emma
(30:13):
Weatherall production support is from Dan Martini, Elena Boutang and
Mabel Finnegan Wright, and our production executive is Laura Jordan Raul.
The series was developed by Anya Saunders and Emma Shaw
at iHeart. The managing Executive producer is Christina Everett, and
for BBC Studios, the executive producer is Joe Kent,
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